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DT over LW hindsight

Thegratefulhead : 10/19/2021 10:27 am
I was wrong, I approved of signing LW . DT was the glue of last year's D. LW should have walked. We should have signed DT and OL worth a shit instead of LW. You don't whine a booing cupcake.
No. Stop.  
Chris684 : 10/19/2021 10:32 am : link
Tomlinson is not on LW's level as a player.

I wish the problem on D could be traced to one player  
j_rud : 10/19/2021 10:34 am : link
and I really liked Tomlinson. But its so much deeper than that. And to be fair Minnesota's run D is no great shakes this year either.
My  
Toth029 : 10/19/2021 10:35 am : link
God it won't stop.
you must have missed yesterday  
KDavies : 10/19/2021 10:37 am : link
the problem is clearly that the Giants didn't keep Macadoo.

LW's not the problem.  
Section331 : 10/19/2021 10:39 am : link
We can argue if he was overpaid, but he is still playing very well. Letting Tomlinson walk was a mistake, but I'd have signed DT and not Shelton.
They shouldn't have signed either  
Go Terps : 10/19/2021 10:42 am : link
.
Giants  
JB_in_DC : 10/19/2021 10:45 am : link
don't have a single above average (or even average) quality linebacker right now, and they run a 3-4 base. A NT isn't magically fixing this. They need playmakers on the second level and quality depth behind those playmakers.
Austin Johnson replaced DT... he has done fine  
KingBlue : 10/19/2021 10:46 am : link
At a fraction of the cost, with Johnson making $3 million on a one-year deal while Tomlinson signed a two-year, $21 million deal with $15.9 million guaranteed.

Johnson vs. Tomlinson

Games Played: 5 vs 5
Snaps Played: 190 vs 194
Tackles: 24 vs 11
Sacks: 3 vs 1
Pressures: 6 vs 7
Run Stops: 14 vs 7
PFF Grade: 62.3 vs 77.1

* This information was lifted from an article written on Big Blue View
RE: LW's not the problem.  
chuckydee9 : 10/19/2021 10:46 am : link
In comment 15421064 Section331 said:
Quote:
We can argue if he was overpaid, but he is still playing very well. Letting Tomlinson walk was a mistake, but I'd have signed DT and not Shelton.


It was obviously a salary cap decision but some here refuse to believe salary cap is a real thing..
RE: No. Stop.  
Gatorade Dunk : 10/19/2021 10:51 am : link
In comment 15421049 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Tomlinson is not on LW's level as a player.

True, but in cap terms, Tomlinson at $10.5M (his true AAV net of the void years on his deal) might be a better piece of the roster than Williams at $21M (his actual AAV).

Williams is definitely better than Tomlinson, but is he twice as good? Would the team be better in general if they could have kept DT and added a good OL piece or a pass rusher, even if that meant letting Williams walk?

I'm not sure if I know the answer to that question - I generally think that stars are essential and guys like Tomlinson are easier to replace. But Williams isn't producing like he did last year, and I wonder how much of that is because he was contract-motivated last year and/or how much was because Tomlinson was there alongside LW last season.
The quest to get Leonard Williams under contract  
NYGgolfer : 10/19/2021 10:57 am : link
was simply poor execution by the Giants. The Front Office was all-in on getting a young lineman with loads of potential to help add talent into the Defense. But they underestimated the leverage they gave Williams in the process and he took advantage.

In the end, all they wound up doing was paying near elite dollars plus draft picks for a player that should have only gotten relatively good dollars. He is the same thing as overpaying for a free agent (plus a few picks).

Fans looking at the Defense and saying Williams isn't the problem aren't seeing the big picture. Anybody underperforming to his potential and/or contract is part of the problem.
Paying elite dollars to a 3-4 DE  
JonC : 10/19/2021 11:00 am : link
was a miscalculation. Sure, they can "afford" it but in terms of scheme that's not where you should spend.
In the case of Leonard Williams,  
Angel Eyes : 10/19/2021 11:02 am : link
I'm not sure what he's supposed to be doing between taking on double teams to free up the linebackers to make plays or to make plays himself. Charts floating around the threads indicate that Williams and Lawrence have been taking on double-teams like two-gap linemen, which limits playmaking ability, which leaves Carter, Ojulari, and possibly Ximines single-blocked... except that they haven't been making plays.

Either way you slice it, he hasn't been doing his job.
RE: RE: No. Stop.  
Thegratefulhead : 10/19/2021 11:20 am : link
In comment 15421090 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15421049 Chris684 said:


Quote:


Tomlinson is not on LW's level as a player.



True, but in cap terms, Tomlinson at $10.5M (his true AAV net of the void years on his deal) might be a better piece of the roster than Williams at $21M (his actual AAV).

Williams is definitely better than Tomlinson, but is he twice as good? Would the team be better in general if they could have kept DT and added a good OL piece or a pass rusher, even if that meant letting Williams walk?

I'm not sure if I know the answer to that question - I generally think that stars are essential and guys like Tomlinson are easier to replace. But Williams isn't producing like he did last year, and I wonder how much of that is because he was contract-motivated last year and/or how much was because Tomlinson was there alongside LW last season.
This was where I was going. Parcells said something like "You can't play a 3-4 without 2 really good NTs" Last year DTs teammates praised him after reviewing games. After watching the D this year, it seems clear to me the D misses him and LWs performance in 2020 seems to have benefited from his unselfish play.
RE: Austin Johnson replaced DT... he has done fine  
Thegratefulhead : 10/19/2021 11:27 am : link
In comment 15421081 KingBlue said:
Quote:
At a fraction of the cost, with Johnson making $3 million on a one-year deal while Tomlinson signed a two-year, $21 million deal with $15.9 million guaranteed.

Johnson vs. Tomlinson

Games Played: 5 vs 5
Snaps Played: 190 vs 194
Tackles: 24 vs 11
Sacks: 3 vs 1
Pressures: 6 vs 7
Run Stops: 14 vs 7
PFF Grade: 62.3 vs 77.1

* This information was lifted from an article written on Big Blue View
I believe the little things a true NT does do not show up in his own stats. I believe you see this in the comparative PFF grades.
model is broken  
richinpa : 10/19/2021 11:31 am : link
In the 3-4,it seems common to not pay huge bucks for the upfront 3 players....modest but not Williams #s.

You have 4 LBs you need to have talent at and pay the edge guys bucks. We have nada at LB and pay martinez good bucks but the rest are horrible.

Maybe DT plus BJ Hill for depth would be better but I don't see DT missing as the key piece. Seems doing things like putting Peppers on Kupp could be an example of some of the issues?
RE: Paying elite dollars to a 3-4 DE  
ajr2456 : 10/19/2021 11:34 am : link
In comment 15421102 JonC said:
Quote:
was a miscalculation. Sure, they can "afford" it but in terms of scheme that's not where you should spend.


Paying elite dollars to a guy who had one good year was also a miscalculation
Look at Parcells and BB  
Lines of Scrimmage : 10/19/2021 11:49 am : link
They had LB's were outstanding in the run game. Banks. McGinest in New. Very big powerful men who game some rush capability. Parcells in Dallas gets Ware.

LW may be a overpay but he is not a liability to the defense. He is still the teams best player on D.
Why do we pick on the very few guys who are playing well...  
Walker Gillette : 10/19/2021 12:08 pm : link
Just about any good play made on the Giant's D comes from Williams. He is not part of the problem it's basically the other ten guys. The Giant's D needs easily 2 CBs, S, 2 Lbs and 2 DLs to be competitive. Williams is more than fine.
Apparently  
The Jake : 10/19/2021 12:12 pm : link
if you make a couple of good plays here and there, that means the GM is beyond reproach no matter how he acquired you or what he paid you.

Giants fans need to practice holding multiple ideas in their heads at once:

1. LW is our best defensive player
2. LW is wildly overpaid given that he is a 3-4 DE and signing him to his current contract substantially hurt the franchise's near-term financial situation

Both things can be true at the same time!
RE: Apparently  
Walker Gillette : 10/19/2021 12:17 pm : link
In comment 15421261 The Jake said:
Quote:
if you make a couple of good plays here and there, that means the GM is beyond reproach no matter how he acquired you or what he paid you.

Giants fans need to practice holding multiple ideas in their heads at once:

1. LW is our best defensive player
2. LW is wildly overpaid given that he is a 3-4 DE and signing him to his current contract substantially hurt the franchise's near-term financial situation

Both things can be true at the same time!


So what should Williams be paid?
RE: Why do we pick on the very few guys who are playing well...  
Thegratefulhead : 10/19/2021 12:59 pm : link
In comment 15421247 Walker Gillette said:
Quote:
Just about any good play made on the Giant's D comes from Williams. He is not part of the problem it's basically the other ten guys. The Giant's D needs easily 2 CBs, S, 2 Lbs and 2 DLs to be competitive. Williams is more than fine.
The defense sucks vs last year and the obvious subtraction is DT. LW is making over 2o million a year. While he is likely the best player, He does not appear worth it.
RE: RE: Apparently  
Jimmy Googs : 10/19/2021 1:03 pm : link
In comment 15421275 Walker Gillette said:
Quote:
In comment 15421261 The Jake said:


Quote:


if you make a couple of good plays here and there, that means the GM is beyond reproach no matter how he acquired you or what he paid you.

Giants fans need to practice holding multiple ideas in their heads at once:

1. LW is our best defensive player
2. LW is wildly overpaid given that he is a 3-4 DE and signing him to his current contract substantially hurt the franchise's near-term financial situation

Both things can be true at the same time!



So what should Williams be paid?


Less...
RE: RE: RE: Apparently  
Walker Gillette : 10/19/2021 1:10 pm : link
In comment 15421424 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15421275 Walker Gillette said:


Quote:


In comment 15421261 The Jake said:


Quote:


if you make a couple of good plays here and there, that means the GM is beyond reproach no matter how he acquired you or what he paid you.

Giants fans need to practice holding multiple ideas in their heads at once:

1. LW is our best defensive player
2. LW is wildly overpaid given that he is a 3-4 DE and signing him to his current contract substantially hurt the franchise's near-term financial situation

Both things can be true at the same time!



So what should Williams be paid?



Less...


Damn that was enlightening. Bravo dude!
Let's be honest here...  
bw in dc : 10/19/2021 1:22 pm : link
A big driver of re-signing LW was to save face for the trade.

Team LW gambled on themselves in '20. And DG blinked.
RE: Let's be honest here...  
Walker Gillette : 10/19/2021 1:28 pm : link
In comment 15421475 bw in dc said:
Quote:
A big driver of re-signing LW was to save face for the trade.

Team LW gambled on themselves in '20. And DG blinked.


The trade was fine, the guy had an all pro year in 2020 and we got that for a 3 and a 5. It's one of Gettleman's few successes.
its bigger than DT vs LW  
Platos : 10/19/2021 1:41 pm : link
our linebackers are trash after martinez went down.

crowder is ok in a complementary role on passing downs. he's not an LB1.
RE: RE: Let's be honest here...  
Thegratefulhead : 10/19/2021 1:44 pm : link
In comment 15421494 Walker Gillette said:
Quote:
In comment 15421475 bw in dc said:


Quote:


A big driver of re-signing LW was to save face for the trade.

Team LW gambled on themselves in '20. And DG blinked.



The trade was fine, the guy had an all pro year in 2020 and we got that for a 3 and a 5. It's one of Gettleman's few successes.
No. How many more wins do we have since we traded for and signed him? How many wins has the guy played in? We need more picks and less 20 million dollar plus 3-4 DEs. If he was the last piece...yeah.

All of the mistakes are attached to a failed assessment of our roster over 4 consecutive years. The greatest indictment of a GM there could possibly .
RE: RE: RE: Let's be honest here...  
Walker Gillette : 10/19/2021 1:48 pm : link
In comment 15421532 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 15421494 Walker Gillette said:


Quote:


In comment 15421475 bw in dc said:


Quote:


A big driver of re-signing LW was to save face for the trade.

Team LW gambled on themselves in '20. And DG blinked.



The trade was fine, the guy had an all pro year in 2020 and we got that for a 3 and a 5. It's one of Gettleman's few successes.

No. How many more wins do we have since we traded for and signed him? How many wins has the guy played in? We need more picks and less 20 million dollar plus 3-4 DEs. If he was the last piece...yeah.

All of the mistakes are attached to a failed assessment of our roster over 4 consecutive years. The greatest indictment of a GM there could possibly .


Go look at what 3rd and 5th round picks become around the league on average and also remember that he didn't cost 20 Mil for the 1 1/2 years they had him before they resigned him. Getting what the Giants got out of him for a 3 and a 5 a year later was fine.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Let's be honest here...  
Thegratefulhead : 10/19/2021 2:37 pm : link
In comment 15421535 Walker Gillette said:
Quote:
In comment 15421532 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 15421494 Walker Gillette said:


Quote:


In comment 15421475 bw in dc said:


Quote:


A big driver of re-signing LW was to save face for the trade.

Team LW gambled on themselves in '20. And DG blinked.



The trade was fine, the guy had an all pro year in 2020 and we got that for a 3 and a 5. It's one of Gettleman's few successes.

No. How many more wins do we have since we traded for and signed him? How many wins has the guy played in? We need more picks and less 20 million dollar plus 3-4 DEs. If he was the last piece...yeah.

All of the mistakes are attached to a failed assessment of our roster over 4 consecutive years. The greatest indictment of a GM there could possibly .



Go look at what 3rd and 5th round picks become around the league on average and also remember that he didn't cost 20 Mil for the 1 1/2 years they had him before they resigned him. Getting what the Giants got out of him for a 3 and a 5 a year later was fine.
I concede the trade itself wasn't a deal breaker for me. How the entire thing played out feels like DG played himself into getting a piece that did not translate into more wins that he had he to overpay for to keep from a PR standpoint.

It didn't save Shurmur's job or impact our win total by any measure that matters.
Trades don't happen in vacuums  
The Jake : 10/19/2021 2:55 pm : link
At the time of the trade, Williams was in the last year of his contract and was set to become a FA. Giants were in the midst of a losing streak, dumped draft picks (which admittedly would've been bungled by DG anyway) and - here's the key - inherited an upcoming cap problem in that they had the misfortune of being the team that had to convince LW to play on a team-friendly 2nd contract for a losing franchise. The Jets, bless their hearts, at least knew they had no chance and took what they could get before he skipped town. But Gettleman? He thinks he can do anything.

LW may not be a great DT, but he's not a dummy either. He knew that the Giants would lowball him when he was first acquired and all he had to do was wait to gain leverage. Wait for the Giants to be forced to use the franchise tag in the off-season. That was the easy one. Wait until he put up the numbers on the field that would force the Giants' hand. That was harder, but he got it done. And then, when the Giants couldn't use the tag for protection anymore, when all of the leverage had moved to LW's side, when DG had no other choice but to save face, LW really cashed in.

So it's not just that it was a bad trade, it was a bad plan from the beginning. It was an agent playing a GM like a fiddle. Gettleman has no ability to see past the first couple of moves on the chessboard.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Apparently  
Jimmy Googs : 10/19/2021 2:57 pm : link
In comment 15421445 Walker Gillette said:
Quote:
In comment 15421424 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 15421275 Walker Gillette said:


Quote:


In comment 15421261 The Jake said:


Quote:


if you make a couple of good plays here and there, that means the GM is beyond reproach no matter how he acquired you or what he paid you.

Giants fans need to practice holding multiple ideas in their heads at once:

1. LW is our best defensive player
2. LW is wildly overpaid given that he is a 3-4 DE and signing him to his current contract substantially hurt the franchise's near-term financial situation

Both things can be true at the same time!



So what should Williams be paid?



Less...



Damn that was enlightening. Bravo dude!


Leonard should have maxed out at around Grady Jarrett's contract.

Why dude?
Painful but important read  
The Jake : 10/19/2021 2:57 pm : link
if you want to remember the full context.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: RE: Let's be honest here...  
Section331 : 10/19/2021 3:09 pm : link
In comment 15421535 Walker Gillette said:
Quote:

Go look at what 3rd and 5th round picks become around the league on average and also remember that he didn't cost 20 Mil for the 1 1/2 years they had him before they resigned him. Getting what the Giants got out of him for a 3 and a 5 a year later was fine.


3rd & 5th round picks provide depth, which has been woefully lacking. I like LW, he has proven to be one of the better players, but that doesn't mean it was a good trade. Contending teams can send picks for a FA-to be, bad teams in the midst of another losing season shouldn't.

If DG wanted LW, wait for FA. He wasn't such a good player that he was going to single-handedly turn around the defense. By trading picks, DG put himself into a bind, LW and his agent knew that DG would have to justify trading picks for him, so they could hold out for a ransom, which they did. DG kicked the can for a year, than signed him to a rich deal. That is poor cap management.
RE: RE: Let's be honest here...  
Jimmy Googs : 10/19/2021 3:11 pm : link
In comment 15421494 Walker Gillette said:
Quote:
In comment 15421475 bw in dc said:


Quote:


A big driver of re-signing LW was to save face for the trade.

Team LW gambled on themselves in '20. And DG blinked.



The trade was fine, the guy had an all pro year in 2020 and we got that for a 3 and a 5. It's one of Gettleman's few successes.


Couple things...

Williams wasn't on the All-Pro team in 2020. A couple of other better Def Tackles made it over him.

And he cost the picks plus $16M+ in 2020. And now he costs $21M per year which is about what those vaild All-Pro DTs make. Do you think he is garnering All-Pro votes this season?

I would agree that there are only a few successes for DG. And evaluating and obtaining good talent in Williams was one of them. However, that goodwill was shot to hell by losing the leverage and negotiations in ultimately getting him under contract.

Now we have a good 4-3 DT that we are paying elite dollars for, and we play a 3-4. Well done...
It should have ben  
The Jake : 10/19/2021 3:13 pm : link
a "sign and trade" type of deal in that if LW wasn't willing to sign on with us long-term, then we shouldn't have traded for him in the first place.

Acquiring a guy who is about to be a FA, without any leverage to make him sign, and bringing him in to a less-than-desirable situation/locker room is just asking for trouble.

Welp. Here it is.
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