Coming off a disastrous performance in week 6 where Daniel Jones got a PFF rating of (35.1) for the game,
here are Jones' latest rankings among starting QBs in the NFL (from pro-football-reference.com):
Y/A: 18th
QBR: 22nd
QB Rating 26th
TD% 32nd
sack% 13th
Please note that in terms of sack % Jones is actually just above league average. This number makes one wonder 'is Jones facing inordinate pressure this season'? Glad you asked.
NY Giants Pressure % which is times pressured per dropback is 21.6% - which is 9th best in the NFL just behind the Buffalo Bills. So it looks like a myth that Jones faces more pressure than most starting QBs.
Finally, and maybe most shocking:
Red Zone Passing
Cmp% Inside 20: 27%
Cmp% Inside 10: 14%
Both numbers are the worst among starting QBs in the NFL.
Many other parts of the team suck. But most fans agree on that. The one where many disagree is on Jones, who many posters here continue to hold out as one of the bright spots on the team.
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or take a look at the other areas of the team. Just read some of the beat reporters articles or listen to one of the podcasts. You could even try watching one of the games....
Many other parts of the team suck. But most fans agree on that. The one where many disagree is on Jones, who many posters here continue to hold out as one of the bright spots on the team.
exactly. I watch all the games and have eyes on at least a little of every game played in the NFL. I know what I'm watching. Can't say the same for some who are in denial. Of course, Jones doesn't get enough help. But that doesn't mean Jones isn't bad, he is. The two are not mutually exclusive.
So posting the objective stats of the QB is some sin around here? Sorry objective stats upset you so much.
And what is your point that the Giants should have drafted Lamar jackson? While lamar is a very dynamic athlete to watch -- it is far more interesting when he is on another team. And far more interesting to watch him lose to the Bills.
And what is your point that the Giants should have drafted Lamar jackson? While lamar is a very dynamic athlete to watch -- it is far more interesting when he is on another team. And far more interesting to watch him lose to the Bills.
I'm not mixing and matching anything. these are season-long numbers.
However, as others have said, Jones is a microcosm of the larger organizational issues, which have been discussed ad nauseam. Namely, unwilling to deviate from their comfort zone, no matter how self-destructive the mindset.
If the Giants have a chance to draft an elite talent at the qb position over the next couple of drafts, there should be no question.
The title of the next thread?
“Jones is playing better than the numbers suggest”
“Extend Jones now while value is low?”
“Building blocks for 2022 - Jones, Thomas, Toney”
This thread is here because some fans still post about how Mahomes and Rodgers would be just as bad on this team, so Jones is actually playing pretty well.
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how many ways can one person say the same thing? It’s a BBI staple. Any guesses on the title of the next thread?
So posting the objective stats of the QB is some sin around here? Sorry objective stats upset you so much.
They don't, at all. In fact I support moving on from Jones, and have for a while. I'm merely commenting on your frequency to repeat the same thing over and over like its news, or a new idea.
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how many ways can one person say the same thing? It’s a BBI staple. Any guesses on the title of the next thread?
The title of the next thread?
“Jones is playing better than the numbers suggest”
“Extend Jones now while value is low?”
“Building blocks for 2022 - Jones, Thomas, Toney”
This thread is here because some fans still post about how Mahomes and Rodgers would be just as bad on this team, so Jones is actually playing pretty well.
I can count on one hand the number of threads and posts that seriously suggest we should be extending Jones right now.
I thought the pass blocking against ATL was fine. I don't know how people thought Jones was 'good' that game.
The TD production is so abysmal.
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In comment 15421329 UConn4523 said:
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how many ways can one person say the same thing? It’s a BBI staple. Any guesses on the title of the next thread?
So posting the objective stats of the QB is some sin around here? Sorry objective stats upset you so much.
They don't, at all. In fact I support moving on from Jones, and have for a while. I'm merely commenting on your frequency to repeat the same thing over and over like its news, or a new idea.
These are the latest rankings. Updated stats are news. I was the first to post Jones' great PFF ranking after his very good performance against New Orleans. That was news then, this is news now.
The debate was over for you in week 4 of 2019
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Jones surprisingly has not faced a lot of pressure all year relative to last year, but he faced heavy pressure on Sunday. You can't mix and match to prove your point. You are using just one game stat for the por performance and a season stat for the pressure.
And what is your point that the Giants should have drafted Lamar jackson? While lamar is a very dynamic athlete to watch -- it is far more interesting when he is on another team. And far more interesting to watch him lose to the Bills.
I'm not mixing and matching anything. these are season-long numbers.
Is this a season long number:
Coming off a disastrous performance in week 6 where Daniel Jones got a PFF rating of (35.1) for the game
Also it is just stats while interesting to observe just don't tell the whole story.
Look at Geno Smith last start on Sunday. And looks at his last start before that when he played for the Giants. Do you really mean to tell me he just magically got better in the last 4 years or he has a good game by coincidence?
he had 200 yards 1 TD a near 100 rate.
It is hard for me to believe that QB stats aren't at least a partial reflection of the teams they play on.
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In comment 15421329 UConn4523 said:
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how many ways can one person say the same thing? It’s a BBI staple. Any guesses on the title of the next thread?
The title of the next thread?
“Jones is playing better than the numbers suggest”
“Extend Jones now while value is low?”
“Building blocks for 2022 - Jones, Thomas, Toney”
This thread is here because some fans still post about how Mahomes and Rodgers would be just as bad on this team, so Jones is actually playing pretty well.
I can count on one hand the number of threads and posts that seriously suggest we should be extending Jones right now.
You would not be surprised to see the other two though, would you?
There are several people who think Jones is playing solidly this year.
I agree with you 100%. Unless the Giants have a great QB fall into their laps in week 7 or there is some amazing deal to be had for Jones, Daniel Jones plays out the season.
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or take a look at the other areas of the team. Just read some of the beat reporters articles or listen to one of the podcasts. You could even try watching one of the games....
Many other parts of the team suck. But most fans agree on that. The one where many disagree is on Jones, who many posters here continue to hold out as one of the bright spots on the team.
He shows a lot more to hope on than many other parts of the team, that's why some of us do
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The debate was over for you in week 4 of 2019
Well he wasn't wrong.
Well now that you say it's over, it's over.
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In comment 15421338 Debaser said:
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Jones surprisingly has not faced a lot of pressure all year relative to last year, but he faced heavy pressure on Sunday. You can't mix and match to prove your point. You are using just one game stat for the por performance and a season stat for the pressure.
And what is your point that the Giants should have drafted Lamar jackson? While lamar is a very dynamic athlete to watch -- it is far more interesting when he is on another team. And far more interesting to watch him lose to the Bills.
I'm not mixing and matching anything. these are season-long numbers.
Is this a season long number:
Coming off a disastrous performance in week 6 where Daniel Jones got a PFF rating of (35.1) for the game
Also it is just stats while interesting to observe just don't tell the whole story.
Look at Geno Smith last start on Sunday. And looks at his last start before that when he played for the Giants. Do you really mean to tell me he just magically got better in the last 4 years or he has a good game by coincidence?
he had 200 yards 1 TD a near 100 rate.
It is hard for me to believe that QB stats aren't at least a partial reflection of the teams they play on.
I just said he had a bad game and then presented season long ranks and percentages. Of course, the team is not helping Jones. Especially last week. I don't think those of us who are concerned about Jones' production would deny that. But both things can be true. The Giants are playing poorly as a team. And Jones' play is also subpar.
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In comment 15421345 Go Terps said:
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The debate was over for you in week 4 of 2019
Well he wasn't wrong.
What are the powerball numbers tomorrow night since you know everything for sure
Than you take all your would be BBI posts,and convert them into Joe Judge questions.
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In comment 15421310 Walker Gillette said:
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or take a look at the other areas of the team. Just read some of the beat reporters articles or listen to one of the podcasts. You could even try watching one of the games....
Many other parts of the team suck. But most fans agree on that. The one where many disagree is on Jones, who many posters here continue to hold out as one of the bright spots on the team.
He shows a lot more to hope on than many other parts of the team, that's why some of us do
Sadly, this might be true. But we need to compare Jones to others at his position, and not to the rest of the dreck on the Giants.
The reality is this is the NFL (FA/Cap/depth issues) not college. I believe Jones can have success with a very good team around him. That is great if the team was mostly assembled and he was playing early in his first contract.
We are now passed that point imv. He only gets more expensive and it will be even harder on a second contract. I don't think he has shown enough to even consider that but he has the rest of the year. I do believe the Giants have not supported him as the should of.
Than you take all your would be BBI posts,and convert them into Joe Judge questions.
You're on.
Sure, there aren't many suggesting they bench DJ for Glennon, but IF the plan is to play a lot of the young guys, you know what we'll hear. "They played all young guys, DJ never had a chance!"
The reality is this is the NFL (FA/Cap/depth issues) not college. I believe Jones can have success with a very good team around him. That is great if the team was mostly assembled and he was playing early in his first contract.
We are now passed that point imv. He only gets more expensive and it will be even harder on a second contract. I don't think he has shown enough to even consider that but he has the rest of the year. I do believe the Giants have not supported him as the should of.
I understand your point and agree to a degree. I think it's hard to support a QB like Jones and win. Mayfield, who is better than Jones, has one of the best supporting casts in the league and the Browns are 3-3.
Beyond creepy.
Beyond creepy.
It's creepy to post the stats of the NY Giants QB on a NY Giants message board? If that's your view, you have no credibility.
Because it is frustrating to talk about the team and ways to improve it when discussions get derailed by the same “Jones isn’t the problem” perspectives or “If you hate Jones go root for another team” lines.
I came into this season saying we needed to see improvement from him. We haven’t outside of the New Orleans game. but many posters are arguing he should have led us to wins over Atlanta and Washington and it was other parts of the team that lead to the losses.
On this site we can almost universally agree Engram is a bust and we would like to see him gone. But when you say it about Jones, you are suddenly some anti-Giants, miserable human.
So yeah, there is some level of “maybe now you can see it?” In my posts
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absolutely beyond creepy at this point. I would recommend to Daniel that he hire a top level security team just in case this guy looks to strike some time soon.
Beyond creepy.
It's creepy to post the stats of the NY Giants QB on a NY Giants message board? If that's your view, you have no credibility.
Not at all. It's creepy that about %99.99999 of your posts on here are about one player. Nice try, though, creep-o.
I think Mayfield is a capable starter but I do not think he is someone to win a championship with and ultimately I see the Browns moving on. You sense they have concerns as they seem to be afraid to have him throwing downfield imo.
Both were not just the only problems all along.
Just not solutions...
9 wins
23 losses
39 TDs
41 turnovers including lost fumbles
62 % completion percentage
These are just facts
Now this doesn’t include rushing which can be great at times, and horrifying at times. He’s already been injured twice running the ball and embarrassed the shit out himself once.
Bottom line is, look at this body of work and decide yourself if this is the guy you want to move forward with.
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but frequency? Not much at all, if any. Personally I don't know how you guys enjoy talking about the same things over and over and reporting things as "new" when really its just the same old story. Even when things are going good there's really only so much you can say about a certain topic.
Because it is frustrating to talk about the team and ways to improve it when discussions get derailed by the same “Jones isn’t the problem” perspectives or “If you hate Jones go root for another team” lines.
I came into this season saying we needed to see improvement from him. We haven’t outside of the New Orleans game. but many posters are arguing he should have led us to wins over Atlanta and Washington and it was other parts of the team that lead to the losses.
On this site we can almost universally agree Engram is a bust and we would like to see him gone. But when you say it about Jones, you are suddenly some anti-Giants, miserable human.
So yeah, there is some level of “maybe now you can see it?” In my posts
It's also frustrating to talk about the team and have every discussion derailed by Jones sucks and his poor play causes the defense to play bad. There is a guy in this site who goes on every post about the D and try's to bring Jones into it. Some of us think that Jones has played well in more than just the NO game and has showed improvement but damn f I didn't know the haters would be out in force after Sunday, most of them gleeful. I have a buddy who blames the 2nd fumble on Jones saying he should have know Peart would let the guy run around him.
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The debate was over for you in week 4 of 2019
Week 17 2019 loss to Philly is when I first started asking the question. That went over like a fart in church. Everyone was just so excited about those 5 TD passes in Washington the week before...
9 wins
23 losses
39 TDs
41 turnovers including lost fumbles
62 % completion percentage
These are just facts
Now this doesn’t include rushing which can be great at times, and horrifying at times. He’s already been injured twice running the ball and embarrassed the shit out himself once.
Bottom line is, look at this body of work and decide yourself if this is the guy you want to move forward with.
<sarcasm>Good thing it's a 1 man team. Same thing with Eli. That dude just sucked the last 8 years of his career and kept those extremely talented teams down!</sarcasm>
You've got to be F'in kidding me...
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First 32 games of his career
9 wins
23 losses
39 TDs
41 turnovers including lost fumbles
62 % completion percentage
These are just facts
Now this doesn’t include rushing which can be great at times, and horrifying at times. He’s already been injured twice running the ball and embarrassed the shit out himself once.
Bottom line is, look at this body of work and decide yourself if this is the guy you want to move forward with.
<sarcasm>Good thing it's a 1 man team. Same thing with Eli. That dude just sucked the last 8 years of his career and kept those extremely talented teams down!</sarcasm>
You've got to be F'in kidding me...
You want to compare that to the first 32 games of Eli’s career, be my guest.
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In comment 15421422 cjac said:
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First 32 games of his career
9 wins
23 losses
39 TDs
41 turnovers including lost fumbles
62 % completion percentage
These are just facts
Now this doesn’t include rushing which can be great at times, and horrifying at times. He’s already been injured twice running the ball and embarrassed the shit out himself once.
Bottom line is, look at this body of work and decide yourself if this is the guy you want to move forward with.
<sarcasm>Good thing it's a 1 man team. Same thing with Eli. That dude just sucked the last 8 years of his career and kept those extremely talented teams down!</sarcasm>
You've got to be F'in kidding me...
You want to compare that to the first 32 games of Eli’s career, be my guest.
Again....Look at the team Eli was playing on those first 32 games! THEY WERE INFINITELY MORE TALENTED AND UNDER TOM COUGHLIN. That's not an apples to apples comparison. Sorry to make it tough for you!
But again, how many times can I repeat that? At what point is it just noise leading to a pissing match? Its annoying, and these threads don't provoke much thought which is why participation is typically low, or in a mocking manner. They are essentially 4-5 people agreeing with each other and fighting anyone that take the bait. This is BBI in a nutshell unless its an NFT.
I didn't hear you discussing Justin Herbert yesterday. Maybe that's because he had a terrible game, which young QBs tend to do.
His future for me right now is unknown. He has tremendous running ability and has made some high quality throws. He's also hampered by all of our injuries, drops, and wretched OL. But he still stares down receivers, and is beginning to look like a guy who is more of an advanced game manager than a leader who compensate for the shortcomings of his team. But as I said, any final judgment right now is extremely premature.
When you have opinions sometimes you are right and sometimes you are wrong. Williams has played better than I expected and I admit when I am wrong. I disliked the Engram pick since Day 1 and I was right about that.
I am willing to change my view as more information becomes available. But that doesn’t mean I need to wait 5 years to form an opinion.
Jones has been largely mediocre to poor with occasional bouts of excellent play. There is no consistency. That isn’t a franchise QB in my opinion. If he suddenly goes off and plays excellent the rest of the season I will change my opinion because I will have different facts upon which it is based.
The people who are frustrating are those that not only stubbornly cling to an opinion despite all evidence, but then start changing the evidence to support the continuation of their opinion.
The fact is there is not that much difference between Josh Allan missing an easy TD yesterday and Jones being timid about throwing into tight windows in the red zone. Jones still not looking off backs and getting picked and Josh allan's ints. Jones running for like an 80 yard gain and Allan avoiding a sack and scrambling around and throwing for a big gain. And maybe there is -- you really don't have options.... except Glennon!
I didn't hear you discussing Justin Herbert yesterday. Maybe that's because he had a terrible game, which young QBs tend to do.
I'll bitch if we draft another quarterback as shitty as Jones. Definitely.
I don't know what Herbert's game on Sunday has to do with Jones being what he is, but whatever.
Ok, Jimmy Garropolo is under contract and in fact playing pretty well. The 49ers have zero interest in Jones. Which is surprising because Jones according to you is as good as Josh Allen.
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seen plenty enough of the NFL that people making these grand statements week after week, whether good or bad, is completely and utterly the exact opposite of what you want to do when evaluating a player. You guys did the same thing to Andrew Thomas and look what happened. You guys did the same thing to Leonard Williams. You guys probably thought Phil Simms was a terrible quarterback too. Oh let me guess - you knew he was going to turn into something right? Simms was having 20 INT seasons well into his 6th and 7th year in the pros.
When you have opinions sometimes you are right and sometimes you are wrong. Williams has played better than I expected and I admit when I am wrong. I disliked the Engram pick since Day 1 and I was right about that.
I am willing to change my view as more information becomes available. But that doesn’t mean I need to wait 5 years to form an opinion.
Jones has been largely mediocre to poor with occasional bouts of excellent play. There is no consistency. That isn’t a franchise QB in my opinion. If he suddenly goes off and plays excellent the rest of the season I will change my opinion because I will have different facts upon which it is based.
The people who are frustrating are those that not only stubbornly cling to an opinion despite all evidence, but then start changing the evidence to support the continuation of their opinion.
You couldn't be more correct on that last statement.
Ok, Jimmy Garropolo is under contract and in fact playing pretty well. The 49ers have zero interest in Jones. Which is surprising because Jones according to you is as good as Josh Allen.
I was being sarcastic. The point is you really don't have options; unless you want to trade Jones for 6th ; start Glennon ; and draft another qb.
But again, how many times can I repeat that? At what point is it just noise leading to a pissing match? Its annoying, and these threads don't provoke much thought which is why participation is typically low, or in a mocking manner. They are essentially 4-5 people agreeing with each other and fighting anyone that take the bait. This is BBI in a nutshell unless its an NFT.
And after the New Orleans game it was the exact opposite, with the same 4-5 posters telling everyone Jones is clearly the answer. The problem here is that many don’t see their bias for what it is - bias
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I don’t know where to start…
Ok, Jimmy Garropolo is under contract and in fact playing pretty well. The 49ers have zero interest in Jones. Which is surprising because Jones according to you is as good as Josh Allen.
I was being sarcastic. The point is you really don't have options; unless you want to trade Jones for 6th ; start Glennon ; and draft another qb.
That's a fine option. That's the smart option.
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In comment 15421462 cosmicj said:
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I don’t know where to start…
Ok, Jimmy Garropolo is under contract and in fact playing pretty well. The 49ers have zero interest in Jones. Which is surprising because Jones according to you is as good as Josh Allen.
I was being sarcastic. The point is you really don't have options; unless you want to trade Jones for 6th ; start Glennon ; and draft another qb.
That's a fine option. That's the smart option.
Maybe we could get Trubisky?
Skinner report - ( New Window )
Mike none of that matters because a decent QB can overcome all of that and lead the team to victory against any foe. Sarcasm off.
Look at the language you're using.
"Jones isn't the problem with this team."
I'm seeing that type of faint praise everywhere. It's pathetic. You don't even believe in him.
Soon he's going to settle into a career backup role elsewhere in the league. Nothing wrong with that. He can go and not be the problem somewhere else.
I thought the pass blocking against ATL was fine. I don't know how people thought Jones was 'good' that game.
The TD production is so abysmal.
Two drives ended prematurely due to the line mistakes.
1) Grady Jarrett slipped thru Bredeson and Price (who fell) and sacked Jones. And now, that isn't a coverage sack, it was abysmal.
2) Price had an early snap that Jones wasn't prepared for and Jones was a split second late reacting, so they lost yardage on that and that was a critical moment in the drive. They didn't recover from it.
So yes, they had egregious errors.
In comment 15421382 ryanmkeane said:
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Well now that you say it's over, it's over.
Just revert to his post where he says the Giants would have been fine if they had signed Jacoby Brissett or Marcus Mariota. Those guys would put NYG over the top! I can't get enough of it.
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In comment 15421470 Debaser said:
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In comment 15421462 cosmicj said:
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I don’t know where to start…
Ok, Jimmy Garropolo is under contract and in fact playing pretty well. The 49ers have zero interest in Jones. Which is surprising because Jones according to you is as good as Josh Allen.
I was being sarcastic. The point is you really don't have options; unless you want to trade Jones for 6th ; start Glennon ; and draft another qb.
That's a fine option. That's the smart option.
Maybe we could get Trubisky?
You would be hard-pressed to find a QB metric where Jones outshines Trubisky.
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I don't think the line has been as good as the numbers above suggest but I don't think it's the abomination some make it out to be (at least on pass blocking).
I thought the pass blocking against ATL was fine. I don't know how people thought Jones was 'good' that game.
The TD production is so abysmal.
Two drives ended prematurely due to the line mistakes.
1) Grady Jarrett slipped thru Bredeson and Price (who fell) and sacked Jones. And now, that isn't a coverage sack, it was abysmal.
2) Price had an early snap that Jones wasn't prepared for and Jones was a split second late reacting, so they lost yardage on that and that was a critical moment in the drive. They didn't recover from it.
So yes, they had egregious errors.
In comment 15421382 ryanmkeane said:
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In comment 15421345 Go Terps said:
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Well now that you say it's over, it's over.
Just revert to his post where he says the Giants would have been fine if they had signed Jacoby Brissett or Marcus Mariota. Those guys would put NYG over the top! I can't get enough of it.
You left out Trubisky, you can't leave out Trubisky.
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In comment 15421477 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15421470 Debaser said:
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In comment 15421462 cosmicj said:
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I don’t know where to start…
Ok, Jimmy Garropolo is under contract and in fact playing pretty well. The 49ers have zero interest in Jones. Which is surprising because Jones according to you is as good as Josh Allen.
I was being sarcastic. The point is you really don't have options; unless you want to trade Jones for 6th ; start Glennon ; and draft another qb.
That's a fine option. That's the smart option.
Maybe we could get Trubisky?
You would be hard-pressed to find a QB metric where Jones outshines Trubisky.
LOL, metric, what about actually watching them both play. I have a client who was actually on the Bears for a couple of years in the 90s and he still pays close attention to the team and goes to the games when he can get to Chicago. i told him about the famous Trubisky statement and he responded " drugs are a terrble thing"
For me - love the kid, but he doesn’t have ‘it’. Rooting for him to prove me wrong but don’t think that will happen. Let the year play out and see where we stand then.
The reality is this is the NFL (FA/Cap/depth issues) not college. I believe Jones can have success with a very good team around him. That is great if the team was mostly assembled and he was playing early in his first contract.
We are now passed that point imv. He only gets more expensive and it will be even harder on a second contract. I don't think he has shown enough to even consider that but he has the rest of the year. I do believe the Giants have not supported him as the should of.
I think this is mostly right. In order to optimize the ability Jones has, it's going to take a lot of investments on the offensive side of the ball (which we tried this off-season). Because Jones is a ultra-dependent QB at this point. And that's hard to reconcile with the 6th pick in the draft.
It was like that with Eli towards the end, btw. But at least he had proven that he had the gift to lift the players around him prior to getting to that stage.
Lets see what he can do with no OL and all his playmakers out with injury. Good thing we didn't trade for Brady because he would suck with this burden. We'd be cutting him.
In comment 15421335 Section331 said:
2 of them were the 2nd overall pick in the draft, unless of course you are saying we should go get them now to improve the team which is kind of funny,
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I ask how good of a team need around your QB to win games.
The reality is this is the NFL (FA/Cap/depth issues) not college. I believe Jones can have success with a very good team around him. That is great if the team was mostly assembled and he was playing early in his first contract.
We are now passed that point imv. He only gets more expensive and it will be even harder on a second contract. I don't think he has shown enough to even consider that but he has the rest of the year. I do believe the Giants have not supported him as the should of.
I think this is mostly right. In order to optimize the ability Jones has, it's going to take a lot of investments on the offensive side of the ball (which we tried this off-season). Because Jones is a ultra-dependent QB at this point. And that's hard to reconcile with the 6th pick in the draft.
It was like that with Eli towards the end, btw. But at least he had proven that he had the gift to lift the players around him prior to getting to that stage.
I don't think Jones is anything like Eli. Eli needed a very good OL and running game. He had exceptional understanding of defenses and almost always had the Giants in the right play. He threw a exceptional post ball and was a assassin on the back shoulder. Oh he also always was available to take the ball.
He could make do with average TE's and pretty good WR's. If he had a elite WR with the OL the Giants would have won a lot more games, probably a couple more divisions and one more run at a trophy. But......
With all of his flaws and unknowns, do people think he is worth 25 million against the cap? Because that's what his fifth year option will cost (approximately based on a value of 23 mil for 2018 QBs). The decision on a 5th year is made this offseason.
That's just the fifth year option, which is likely to be below AAV on a second contract, which means his cost will be even higher in future year.
The only thing Jones and Eli have in common is that last one.
[quote
I don't think Jones is anything like Eli. Eli needed a very good OL and running game. He had exceptional understanding of defenses and almost always had the Giants in the right play. He threw a exceptional post ball and was a assassin on the back shoulder. Oh he also always was available to take the ball.
He could make do with average TE's and pretty good WR's. If he had a elite WR with the OL the Giants would have won a lot more games, probably a couple more divisions and one more run at a trophy. But...... [/quote]
I didn't say Jones was. I said at the end of Eli's run, it was clear he needed more parts.
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I don't think the line has been as good as the numbers above suggest but I don't think it's the abomination some make it out to be (at least on pass blocking).
I thought the pass blocking against ATL was fine. I don't know how people thought Jones was 'good' that game.
The TD production is so abysmal.
Two drives ended prematurely due to the line mistakes.
1) Grady Jarrett slipped thru Bredeson and Price (who fell) and sacked Jones. And now, that isn't a coverage sack, it was abysmal.
2) Price had an early snap that Jones wasn't prepared for and Jones was a split second late reacting, so they lost yardage on that and that was a critical moment in the drive. They didn't recover from it.
So yes, they had egregious errors.
In comment 15421382 ryanmkeane said:
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In comment 15421345 Go Terps said:
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Well now that you say it's over, it's over.
Just revert to his post where he says the Giants would have been fine if they had signed Jacoby Brissett or Marcus Mariota. Those guys would put NYG over the top! I can't get enough of it.
Toth, thanks for the response - my view is that OL across the league has massively deteriorated significantly since 2011. I see those types of plays you mention across the league from other teams. I don't even think the line is 'good' - I think it's probably still below average. I just don't think it's unmanageable.
With all of his flaws and unknowns, do people think he is worth 25 million against the cap? Because that's what his fifth year option will cost (approximately based on a value of 23 mil for 2018 QBs). The decision on a 5th year is made this offseason.
That's just the fifth year option, which is likely to be below AAV on a second contract, which means his cost will be even higher in future year.
I don't know how anyone can say yes to this.
With all of his flaws and unknowns, do people think he is worth 25 million against the cap? Because that's what his fifth year option will cost (approximately based on a value of 23 mil for 2018 QBs). The decision on a 5th year is made this offseason.
That's just the fifth year option, which is likely to be below AAV on a second contract, which means his cost will be even higher in future year.
That seems high to me. I would do everything possible to avoid that situation, including starting a 3rd round pick if need be.
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Jones is in his 3rd year, which means we can't really judge his play in a vacuum, as contract decisions will soon have to be made.
With all of his flaws and unknowns, do people think he is worth 25 million against the cap? Because that's what his fifth year option will cost (approximately based on a value of 23 mil for 2018 QBs). The decision on a 5th year is made this offseason.
That's just the fifth year option, which is likely to be below AAV on a second contract, which means his cost will be even higher in future year.
That seems high to me. I would do everything possible to avoid that situation, including starting a 3rd round pick if need be.
I agree. If our franchise guy isn't in this draft or the next, I would rather put resources into building out the team for the eventual QB of the future, rather than on a Jones second contract.
It isn't 1983 any more, you don't have 6 or 7 years to evaluate your QB. The fact remains, 20 of his last 22 starts have been average to poor. He has the rest of this season to show he can be an effective starter, and if not, the Giants have a decision to make on whether they guarantee his 5th year.
If you look at his per game averages, which is the exact opposite of making judgements week after week, he is strikingly similar to Blake Bortles. And if you took Bortles per game at this point in Jones's career, they would look much better. That ain't gonna fly.
You complain about naysayers having already made their mind up, but reread your quote. "Never will be". That is simply absurd for a guy who has not shown he is a legitimate NFL starter. Look, if he turns it around and plays as well as he did v NO and WFT, I'm all in, bring him back, guarantee his option year. But I'm the one who's already made his mind up.
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Jones is in his 3rd year, which means we can't really judge his play in a vacuum, as contract decisions will soon have to be made.
With all of his flaws and unknowns, do people think he is worth 25 million against the cap? Because that's what his fifth year option will cost (approximately based on a value of 23 mil for 2018 QBs). The decision on a 5th year is made this offseason.
That's just the fifth year option, which is likely to be below AAV on a second contract, which means his cost will be even higher in future year.
I don't know how anyone can say yes to this.
They don't have to say yes to this until the offseason. Hopefully They can get a fairly healthy offense back and can make the best possible decision by then because it is going to be a big one and we don't even know who is going to decide this.
Most Giants fans see the total picture with Jones...he's average at best. The fanboys see 1 or 2 good throws, or one good half, and act like that's who Jones is, or who he can become.
Falco, Trubisky, Ponder, etc. all made good throws and had spurts of good play...but they weren't NFL starters.
If this organization give Jones a 2nd contract, really even a 5th year option, we haven't hit rock bottom.
I didn't hear you discussing Justin Herbert yesterday. Maybe that's because he had a terrible game, which young QBs tend to do.
Ah the fake fan line. The go to when you guys know you’re wrong and won’t admit it.
You want to compare that to the first 32 games of Eli’s career, be my guest.
Again....Look at the team Eli was playing on those first 32 games! THEY WERE INFINITELY MORE TALENTED AND UNDER TOM COUGHLIN. That's not an apples to apples comparison. Sorry to make it tough for you!
This isnt tough for me at all. I know what i'm seeing, you can continue to make excuses for Daniel Jones. I'm fairly confident that in 3 years he'll be a backup on another team who occasionally comes in and does well. But he's not going to end up with a winning record, he's not going to go the playoffs. He is what he is. He's an average at best guy who flashes at times, but he's not a franchise QB. He doesnt make the players around him better (like Eli did)
He flounders when things around him are not perfect.
and my argument about Eli making those around him better, OBJ had 44 TDs with Eli throwing him the ball, all which occured in the later half of Eli's career as you point out had no talent around him.
Since OBJ left he hes 7 TDs
Oh and our current superstar WR has zero TDs
I didn't hear you discussing Justin Herbert yesterday. Maybe that's because he had a terrible game, which young QBs tend to do.
As if the problem with Jones is one bad game. Good grief.
Don't think it's a myth when its predetermined to get the ball out in 2 seconds to a designated player.
The issue is when he has to scan the field for longer patterns.
Then he's toast (at least was on Sunday).
Lets see what he can do with no OL and all his playmakers out with injury. Good thing we didn't trade for Brady because he would suck with this burden. We'd be cutting him.
Look at the above stats, the pressure rate on Jones is pretty low. Enough with the excuses, at some point, he has to produce with some kind of consistency. We'll be in year 5, and you guys will still be crowing about his player of the week award v NO. Mitch Trubisky won a POTW after a 400 yard, 6 TD performance, how did he work out? Bortles won a few.
Newsflash, most highly drafted QB's are drafted by bad teams. That's the way it works. It doesn't excuse them for extended poor play.
Agreed, that's where they should be headed.
And I'd probably rather have DJ next year on his final year than a retread like Geno Smith or whoever else you can name.
Heck, if we're going to lose let's lose big and get a higher draft choice.....
Who wants to go 7-10 with a scrub?
Ratings drop
Details at 11…
Honestly, obsessively Che king ratings week to week is like checking your stock portfolio every day. There’s no point. The question is where is he trending overall and should we keep him, and you won’t know that really until the end of the year.
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how many ways can one person say the same thing? It’s a BBI staple. Any guesses on the title of the next thread?
So posting the objective stats of the QB is some sin around here? Sorry objective stats upset you so much.
You know there s no one here on Bbi that s going to have any say in Jones’ future with the team , right?
Your persistence in this matter leads me to believe you might be confused about that, or is it just that important for you to be right?
The offense was dominant? They scored 21 in regulation. That is below average for an NFL offense in 2021. Their best games on offense are average, at best, compared to the rest of the league
The question then is assuming that the Giants at some point sooner than later turn things around and align all those things is Jones good enough to lead a team to a championship win? I admit that I don't know, but there is no way anyone else here knows that he can't either.
For curiosity I looked up the last 15 QB's that have managed to win at least one Super Bowl. Four won it in their second season which is tremendous, but realistically also means they were drafted into a situation were things were beginning to align. But even with those four achieving it in only their second season the average for all fifteen is almost the sixth season, with some great ones being some of the longest with Peyton Manning in his 9th season, and Elway winning his first in his 15th! Jones is only in his third season on a team where nothing has aligned for the better.
I'm not trying to compare Jones to any of these guys, but I don't think anyone can say he couldn't be a winning QB if he is quarterbacking for a team that puts it all together either.
I'm a life long Giant fan, I root for the guys wearing Blue and to someone that has been watching the NFL for well over fifty years, right now I don't see clear evidence as Jones being the problem. It doesn't mean he is the answer, but for crying out loud some of you seem totally invested in it being impossible that he could possibly ever be the answer.
Lets see how it all plays out and what happens, that's half the fun of being a fan!
Here is the list of QB's in case anyone's interested:
Tom Brady – 2
Patrick Mahomes- 3
Nicl Foles - 6
Peyton Manning – 9
Russell Wilson – 2
Joe Flacco – 5
Eli Manning -4
Aaron Rodgers -6
Drew Bress – 9
Ben Roethlisberger -2
Brad Johnson -10
Trent Dilfer -7
Kurt warner -2
John Elway -15
Troy Aikman -4
Total of 86 for average of 5.73
When Jones plays well in New Orleans, people can't post enough about how awesome he was and how is finally emerging.
When Jones plays poorly like he did last week, it is all "Dude, why do you keep talking about the QB? It's weird."
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In comment 15421329 UConn4523 said:
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how many ways can one person say the same thing? It’s a BBI staple. Any guesses on the title of the next thread?
So posting the objective stats of the QB is some sin around here? Sorry objective stats upset you so much.
You know there s no one here on Bbi that s going to have any say in Jones’ future with the team , right?
Your persistence in this matter leads me to believe you might be confused about that, or is it just that important for you to be right?
There are literally people on this thread saying Jones may be the future of this team. People post this nonsense every day. I don't know why you have a problem with me posting the stats on our QB, on a NY Giants message board. Have you considered the possibility that you are too sensitive to the subject?
The question then is assuming that the Giants at some point sooner than later turn things around and align all those things is Jones good enough to lead a team to a championship win? I admit that I don't know, but there is no way anyone else here knows that he can't either.
For curiosity I looked up the last 15 QB's that have managed to win at least one Super Bowl. Four won it in their second season which is tremendous, but realistically also means they were drafted into a situation were things were beginning to align. But even with those four achieving it in only their second season the average for all fifteen is almost the sixth season, with some great ones being some of the longest with Peyton Manning in his 9th season, and Elway winning his first in his 15th! Jones is only in his third season on a team where nothing has aligned for the better.
I'm not trying to compare Jones to any of these guys, but I don't think anyone can say he couldn't be a winning QB if he is quarterbacking for a team that puts it all together either.
I'm a life long Giant fan, I root for the guys wearing Blue and to someone that has been watching the NFL for well over fifty years, right now I don't see clear evidence as Jones being the problem. It doesn't mean he is the answer, but for crying out loud some of you seem totally invested in it being impossible that he could possibly ever be the answer.
Lets see how it all plays out and what happens, that's half the fun of being a fan!
Here is the list of QB's in case anyone's interested:
Tom Brady – 2
Patrick Mahomes- 3
Nicl Foles - 6
Peyton Manning – 9
Russell Wilson – 2
Joe Flacco – 5
Eli Manning -4
Aaron Rodgers -6
Drew Bress – 9
Ben Roethlisberger -2
Brad Johnson -10
Trent Dilfer -7
Kurt warner -2
John Elway -15
Troy Aikman -4
Total of 86 for average of 5.73
I appreciate your long, thoughtful post. I appreciate that you are an ardent Giants fan. I too have been a football fan for over 50 years and a Giants fan for more than 40 years. But, respectfully, your data about number of years to win a Super Bowl is just noise.
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Terps, you'll continue to bitch and moan about everything until the Giants start winning. I get it. Jones isn't the problem with this team. Never has been, never will be.
Look at the language you're using.
"Jones isn't the problem with this team."
I'm seeing that type of faint praise everywhere. It's pathetic. You don't even believe in him.
Soon he's going to settle into a career backup role elsewhere in the league. Nothing wrong with that. He can go and not be the problem somewhere else.
Truth.
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In comment 15421334 Producer said:
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In comment 15421329 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
how many ways can one person say the same thing? It’s a BBI staple. Any guesses on the title of the next thread?
So posting the objective stats of the QB is some sin around here? Sorry objective stats upset you so much.
You know there s no one here on Bbi that s going to have any say in Jones’ future with the team , right?
Your persistence in this matter leads me to believe you might be confused about that, or is it just that important for you to be right?
There are literally people on this thread saying Jones may be the future of this team. People post this nonsense every day. I don't know why you have a problem with me posting the stats on our QB, on a NY Giants message board. Have you considered the possibility that you are too sensitive to the subject?
No I haven’t considered that. I think you understand my pt, It s not the content of your post , it s the quantity of your posts on the same thing.
I have engaged your pt of view on the matter, it s what we do here. But I must admit your persistence has worn me down on the topic.
I like Daniel Jones, I enjoy watching him play, I root very hard for his success, and I see enough Phil Simms in him that I am not yet ready to close the book. For some reason you feel the need for me and others of shared view to come off that stance.;I can not think of any other logical explanation for the aforementioned persistence.
I think your criticism of Jones is often done in a vacuum, that s what I think, nothing you can write will change that
If the Giants decide to move on from Daniel, then I will
Your opinion on the matter has been duly noted You should try to keep in mind that opinions are not facts.
In reality, this might be the most talented group of receivers in Giants history and the OL is top ten in pass pro
Injuries have no doubt hurt but ultimately the problem is Jones locking unto receivers and holding the ball way too long and poor pocket awareness.
In other words, DJ is the number one problem on offense. He does do good things as well but if he does not improve his weaknesses, he will not be a starting QB much longer
Dilfer and Johnson played on all time defensive teams and did not have big salaries against the cap.
Manning and Elway were all time greats. Both probably should have won earlier with better teams. They truly carried their franchise for many years.
I normally treat Brady as just different and don’t include him to support a theory for various reasons.
Eli and Ben were true FC QB’s and I don’t think Jones is close to either. Interestingly these two both also won on a second contract which is rare.
I don’t think DB was breaking the bank on the first SB like years later.
Russel Wilson is no where close to Winning another. His first was with a elite D and great running game.
I am coming to the conclusion it has to be a rare talent to give that second contract. The only way a very good one wins is if the team is able to consistently draft well to replace talented players you lose. Even then those teams have flaws and lack quality depth.
An outstanding example is the 2017 Eagles. 1st contract QB with a veteran backup. They had the best OL and running game in the league with a very good D. It certainly helped they had the easiest NFC playoff opponents I’ve seen.
I think the Giants are better served building a better team and getting another rookie when opportunity presents . Do not force the pick.
So who were you a fan of for the other 10 years and tell us more about the switch
In reality, this might be the most talented group of receivers in Giants history and the OL is top ten in pass pro
Injuries have no doubt hurt but ultimately the problem is Jones locking unto receivers and holding the ball way too long and poor pocket awareness.
In other words, DJ is the number one problem on offense. He does do good things as well but if he does not improve his weaknesses, he will not be a starting QB much longer
Had Jones played with, Golladay, Toney, Shepherd and Barkley on the field at the same time, for more than a game or two, your pt would be more relevant.
Actually with those guys, with Ross for Shepherd, offense looked pretty nice.
So who were you a fan of for the other 10 years and tell us more about the switch
Sure..
I'm 56. I vaguely remember the Jets winning the Super Bowl. I started to be fascinated by football when I was 6 or 7 and remember seeing the Rams play the 49ers on TV and I remember watching a bit of the Dolphins vs the Vikings (SB 8) on TV which was during the day!
My father was a New York sports fan, so he never rooted against any New York teams like so many NYers who pick a side. His first love was the Yankees. Period and end of story. He grew up near Yankee Stadium and used to cut school and go the stadium to watch Joe Dimaggio. We were a baseball family. But he also loved and followed closely the Knicks and Rangers. And as I said he always rooted for all NY teams to win. For some reason he wasn't a diehard NY Giants fan. he liked them, he rooted for them to win, but he preferred the Jets. As a kid he onc told me he liked the New York Yankees of the AAFC. But he would watch all the Giants games and cheer them on. We watched all the Giants games together, in NY at the time you got the early game, usually Giants, and a Jets game, often the late game and one other late, nationally televised game. We would watch all of it. We were a sports family.
My dad took me to two NFL games in the 70s. The first game, a family friend had tickets to the Jets vs Bills, Shea Stadium, 1973. It was snowing heavily that day. It turned out to be a famous game as that was the game OJ Simpson broke Jim Brown's rushing record, and became the first back to crack 2000 yards. We saw Simpson break the record and left at halftime due to the cold to go to the arcade at Adventurers Inn, in Flushing. I was eight years old. The other game was Giants v Saints at Shea Stadium in 1975. Doug Kotar was the Giants' star that day as he rushed for two TDs.
You have to understand that a lot of kids growing up in NY at the time didn't like the two home teams much because they were both terrible. For some reason I couldn't like the Jets, as my father did, they just seemed abysmal, it was the end of the Namath era and he was bad. In school I had friends who loved the Steelers, Vikings, Cowboys, Dolphins, etc. And they wore the hats and jackets of out of town teams. I almost liked the Dolphins but in 1974 they were beaten in dramatic fashion by the Oakland Raiders in a game immortalized as the "Sea of Hands" game. Ken Stabler led a dramatic comeback and threw a last second pass as he was falling down to Clarence Davis to dethrone one of the greatest champions in NFL history. I was nine years old and I became a Raiders fan. Mid-70s football was the best and had the greatest rivalry games. I agonized when the Raiders were beaten by the Steelers in 74 and 75, and I was euphoric when they went 13-1 and won the Super Bowl in dominant fashion in 76.
Stabler is my all-time favorite athlete. He was a renegade, bad boy, who was the coolest under pressure. And he was the best QB of the 70s.
Anyway, the one knock on Stabler is that he partied very hard, didn't take good care of himself, and he got old fast. When he left the Raiders I lost interest in the team. I still couldn't care for the Jets, in fact, even though my father loved them, and my brother in law loved them, both gone now, I sort of hated them and rooted against them. I wasn't a gentle soul like my dad, who couldn't root against any New York team.
Since we always watched the Giants together, we were in front of the TV when *the fumble* happened. I was sort of interested in the Giants that season because they had Larry Csonka. That was a wild day and I vividly remember how surreal it was. I was also interested in Troy Archer. My curiosity about the Giants was growing. And then they drafted Lawrence Taylor. My father may have loved the Jets most but he always respected the Giants Defense. He loved Brad Van Pelt and John Mendenhall. He would talk about them a lot. And then when the Giants had Carson and Taylor, they became a fun team to root for. My dad rooted for both NY teams through the 80s. But me, as my childhood Raiders fandom waned, I became a fierce Giants fan. In 86 we cheered together as the Giants slammed Joe Montana and the 49ers and I was away at college for the Washington game and the Super Bowl, but my dad taped the games for me so I could have them immortalized and we talked on the phone recapping each win.
So my interest in football dates back to around 1971/72. I watched the Giants all those years, but I would say I became a Giants fan around 1979-80. And since 82 they are my only team.
Yes. That's just how it was in New York in the 70s. The teams were bad and most of the kids rooted for mainly the Steelers and Cowboys, but Raiders, Vikings, Dolphins also had fans. I hated the Steelers and the Cowboys, and still do to this day. I hate the Cowboys much more than the Eagles or Washington, though I despised the 80s Redskins and 90s Eagles.
There were more Steelers fans than Giants and Jets fans combined when I was in junior high. Same with the Cowboys. In the 70s, grade schoolers didn't give a damn for the Giants and Jets. At least not around me.