Hi all,
Been lurking for decades, rarely post.
Wanted to spur a slightly different conversation since we're all disappointed and bored again in October. And the positions are well staked out and the back and forth predictable.
Assumptions:
Any QB benefits from a better line and a stronger roster.
A self aware, circumspect BPA strategy makes sense over time. Especially in R1.
I watch no college football. I live in England now. All I watch is the Giants really. The consensus seems to be that the 2022 QB class is weak.
Leaving aside that certain posters will argue for Corral or Willis with conviction, feels like decent/flawed prospects will drop.
The competitive scenario is to have a cost controlled QB (who is good) on a rookie contract. The best scenario is to have that cost really controlled, meaning later rounds. The Russell Wilson corollary.
Scenario:
In R1 draft, for example, the best DL and OL available. Draft a QB early in R2. Use R3 on another OL and a LB. Again, for example. I'm happy with BPA.
Don't extend Jones.
Have R2QB compete with Jones next year, but maybe ride the pine for a year. A lot of these year 1 QBs are struggling. Many of them don't make it. No one waits 3 years anymore of course. But there's a decent track record with one year. Mahomes, Rogers. Learn the playbook.
Upside: greater flexibility, more competition. The chance to move on to a cheaper, more ready option. At the very least you can evaluate the pick and, if need be, draft again the next year (assuming we cut ties with Jones).
If Jones develops between here and then and proves he deserves the 2nd contract, that's a nice problem to have. Whatever the odds are.
Downside: redundancy next year. That R2 pick could be a player.
Thoughts?
I think the OP said that the Day 2 kid would push Jones or be the backup. Wouldn't want to throw him into the deep end too quickly given that most of the Round 1 quarterbacks this year are having some trouble.
One or two might occasionally slip to the top of the second round. But if a QB is slipping in the first round there will likely be a bidding war from teams at the top of the second round to try and get him by trading back into the first. The most likely reason is that by doing so they can get the fifth year option on him.
The end result is that a QB that because the Giants will be drafting at the top of the second round they should trade back into the first round if a QB they want slips. The Ravens did that with Jackson.
It comes down to getting it right of course - and moving on to a different plan if it isn't there - but a pick between 35-40 should mean a shot at better players.
Especially is a QB or two tumbles in a year where no one's rating them highly and a lot of teams have picked QBs recently. There may even be a chance to move up a bit.
Looking at starting QB, most of the talent went early in R1. But what if that's not there when you pick, either because someone's gone or you're not convinced?
Among the others:
Rodgers went 24. Lamar Jackson and Bridgewater went 32. Derek Carr went 36. Jalen Hurts went 53. Garoppolo went 62. Wilson went 75. Cousins went 102. Prescott went 135. Brady went 199.
So a pick at, say, 38 should feel different than Webb at 87 or Nassib at 110. Especially if there are a group of QBs who can't manage R1 grades this year. And teams are comparing them to young QBs on the roster.
Draft players, not positions. One QB in this draft has nothing to do with another.
If there's a QB worth taking when the Giants pick, they should take him. If there isn't, they shouldn't, and just search for a QB elsewhere in the draft or in free agency.
What is clear is they need a quarterback.
Draft players, not positions. One QB in this draft has nothing to do with another.
If there's a QB worth taking when the Giants pick, they should take him. If there isn't, they shouldn't, and just search for a QB elsewhere in the draft or in free agency.
What is clear is they need a quarterback.
I think weak QB class is accurate. There are some with upside, but I am not sure I see a Week 1 2022 starting QB of the bunch. Unfortunately the guy I wanted to see the most got injured (Jurkovec).
That said, I love the idea of having a credible QB2 to push DJ8 and provide needed competition and hopefully a legit alternative.
Why don't we ever have that? We seem to be pretty bad at evaluating talent, especially at the QB position. If we were better at that, we could find that QB2 in the draft or an under the radar FA.
If you see a guy you believe is a franchise QB you get him in the first. If you see a developmental guy you like in later rounds, you get him then. But you can't go into the draft with the idea of "we'll take a QB in round 2" unless you know who that QB is and that he will be there in the 2nd.
Draft players, not positions. One QB in this draft has nothing to do with another.
If there's a QB worth taking when the Giants pick, they should take him. If there isn't, they shouldn't, and just search for a QB elsewhere in the draft or in free agency.
What is clear is they need a quarterback.
Many years people say this about the QB class in October only to see 2-3 big time prospects emerge by April. Not saying that happens this coming draft, but it does happen. Kyler Murray wasn't the hot #1 pick until we got to within 2 months of that draft.
If a stud, I mean STUD is available or within our reach, a true difference maker, a guy you think will carry the day here, don't even think about it, get him.
We need good players but more than anything we need legendary (if that's a fair want) talent.
Quote:
I think the "weak QB class" talk is nonsense.
Draft players, not positions. One QB in this draft has nothing to do with another.
If there's a QB worth taking when the Giants pick, they should take him. If there isn't, they shouldn't, and just search for a QB elsewhere in the draft or in free agency.
What is clear is they need a quarterback.
Many years people say this about the QB class in October only to see 2-3 big time prospects emerge by April. Not saying that happens this coming draft, but it does happen. Kyler Murray wasn't the hot #1 pick until we got to within 2 months of that draft.
If a stud, I mean STUD is available or within our reach, a true difference maker, a guy you think will carry the day here, don't even think about it, get him.
We need good players but more than anything we need legendary (if that's a fair want) talent.
I said it before, 2005 was a weak QB class going into the draft.
The 2005 QB class included Aaron Rodgers.
There are very good QBs available in "weak" QB classes and shitty QBs getting overdrafted in "strong" QB classes.
Find the QB that works for your team and draft them. Not because they remind you of the last guy, not because they have a pedigree that you are familiar with, etc. Find the QB that will give your franchise a chance to be a championship team, and you've found your franchise QB.
Name one Round 2 QB in the last 8 years that was a consistent starter let alone a franchise QB...
Ill Help you here are you Options
2021- Kyle Trask
2020- Jalen Hurts
2019- Drew Lock
2018- None in 2nd Mason Rudolph in 3rd
2017- Deshone Kizer
2016- Christian Hackenberg
2015- None in 2nd Garret Grayson in 3rd
2014- Derek Carr ( I guess this is the situation you would be hoping for)
Name one Round 2 QB in the last 8 years that was a consistent starter let alone a franchise QB...
Ill Help you here are you Options
2021- Kyle Trask
2020- Jalen Hurts
2019- Drew Lock
2018- None in 2nd Mason Rudolph in 3rd
2017- Deshone Kizer
2016- Christian Hackenberg
2015- None in 2nd Garret Grayson in 3rd
2014- Derek Carr ( I guess this is the situation you would be hoping for)
Past 8 years is a weird benchmark, though I would have expected 7 years if you were going to be random about it.
Were you trying to avoid including Geno Smith and Brock Osweiler?
I don't think anyone is expecting a 2nd round QB to save the day, but could they hold down the fort for a year while the team gets their yet again renewed rebuild underway? Why not?
The idea isn't to just find a 2nd round QB that's better than DJ (better-than-DJ isn't a benchmark that gets us to a championship level again); the idea is to find a QB that's capable of being the centerpiece of a championship team, and if a 2nd round QB is a placeholder toward that end, so be it.
I think there should be a new rule: thou shalt not pick a QB in the 2nd rd.
Probably the result of all even somewhat talented QBs getting hovered up in the 1st rd.
NFL.com Brandt - ( New Window )
The rest will take care of itself…
I think there should be a new rule: thou shalt not pick a QB in the 2nd rd.
Probably the result of all even somewhat talented QBs getting hovered up in the 1st rd.
I think you nailed it exactly in your last sentence. Any good QB will get elevated into the first round because of the value of the position itself. Mediocre QBs can even land in the top 10 of the draft (and this is not intended to be directed toward Jones; there are plenty of other examples). So there's a resulting gap in the 2nd round for QBs, whereas other positions tend to have prospects that are slightly too short, too light, too slow, have hands that are slightly too small, arms that are slightly too short, etc.
Those flaws exist for QBs, too. But if they can fling it, then the flaws get overlooked more easily than if they're a DE with T-Rex arms. But the QBs with perceived flaws do still slide; either they're prolific enough in college to make a GM (and fanbase) forget their flaws, or maybe they look like a pudgy college kid who couldn't beat out Drew Henson and they slide all the way to the bottom end of the 6th round.
Quote:
There’s been absolutely no success for 2nd round QBs since the Eli/Roethlisberger draft except for Matt Schaub and Derek Carr. In fact, Carr is a striking exception to the pattern.
I think there should be a new rule: thou shalt not pick a QB in the 2nd rd.
Probably the result of all even somewhat talented QBs getting hovered up in the 1st rd.
I think you nailed it exactly in your last sentence. Any good QB will get elevated into the first round because of the value of the position itself. Mediocre QBs can even land in the top 10 of the draft (and this is not intended to be directed toward Jones; there are plenty of other examples). So there's a resulting gap in the 2nd round for QBs, whereas other positions tend to have prospects that are slightly too short, too light, too slow, have hands that are slightly too small, arms that are slightly too short, etc.
Those flaws exist for QBs, too. But if they can fling it, then the flaws get overlooked more easily than if they're a DE with T-Rex arms. But the QBs with perceived flaws do still slide; either they're prolific enough in college to make a GM (and fanbase) forget their flaws, or maybe they look like a pudgy college kid who couldn't beat out Drew Henson and they slide all the way to the bottom end of the 6th round.
I think it's more the 5th year option. I don't think teams can have a 5th year option on anyone not drafted in the 1st round? I could be wrong...too lazy to research.
Quote:
In comment 15424142 cosmicj said:
Quote:
There’s been absolutely no success for 2nd round QBs since the Eli/Roethlisberger draft except for Matt Schaub and Derek Carr. In fact, Carr is a striking exception to the pattern.
I think there should be a new rule: thou shalt not pick a QB in the 2nd rd.
Probably the result of all even somewhat talented QBs getting hovered up in the 1st rd.
I think you nailed it exactly in your last sentence. Any good QB will get elevated into the first round because of the value of the position itself. Mediocre QBs can even land in the top 10 of the draft (and this is not intended to be directed toward Jones; there are plenty of other examples). So there's a resulting gap in the 2nd round for QBs, whereas other positions tend to have prospects that are slightly too short, too light, too slow, have hands that are slightly too small, arms that are slightly too short, etc.
Those flaws exist for QBs, too. But if they can fling it, then the flaws get overlooked more easily than if they're a DE with T-Rex arms. But the QBs with perceived flaws do still slide; either they're prolific enough in college to make a GM (and fanbase) forget their flaws, or maybe they look like a pudgy college kid who couldn't beat out Drew Henson and they slide all the way to the bottom end of the 6th round.
I think it's more the 5th year option. I don't think teams can have a 5th year option on anyone not drafted in the 1st round? I could be wrong...too lazy to research.
That's definitely part of it, but more so for QBs drafted at the very end of rd1 - in recent years, that really only applies to Lamar Jackson, who the Ravens very specifically drafted in rd1 for that exact reason. I can't think of too many others that were drafted late enough in rd1 where you could make the case that they were elevated solely for the 5th year option.