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Perhaps a slightly different John Mara narrative

M.S. : 10/20/2021 6:38 am

He is not a favorite on this site (to put it mildly), and I don't disagree with many of the negative assessments, but I'd like to offer up another perspective.

Is it possible that one of his biggest mistakes was that he was so demanding of his subordinates to produce a winner that he forced their hand into numerous bad decisions?

The prime example would be his lavish spending on free agents in the hope of dragging his team out of the doldrums and into the playoffs even though the roster from 1 to 53 was simply not good enough to turn things around so quickly. (The one exception would be 2016 and that turned out to be unsustainable.)

Another example: Knowing full well that any rookie QB brought in here would not out-perform Eli in Year One, John Mara hesitated to pull the plug on his two-time Super Bowl MVP. (He finally did so in 2019.)


well, then he's a tool  
markky : 10/20/2021 6:40 am : link
that doesn't understand how great teams are built and sustained in the NFL.
That he meddles at all is the problem  
armstead98 : 10/20/2021 6:44 am : link
All meddling owners think they’re doing it to help the team because they know best. The thing is they don’t and need to say out.
NFL roster building is not like asset or investment  
cosmicj : 10/20/2021 6:54 am : link
Management where you put in dollars and get positive results. It’s more like stock picking within a small club with limited investment opportunities. So the key thing is for a team front office to spot “mispricing” and buy undervalued assets. To do that successfully, the front office needs tactical freedom and total flexibility.

When a team owner comes out and says “we need to give our young QB weapons” or “we need to find a replacement for our franchise QB” or “we know this underperforming young player should be getting more playing time” (and Mara has done all of these things), it ties the front office’s hands and forces them into bad decisions and overpaying in contracts or draft selections.

Mara makes bad personnel selections but he also doesn’t seem to understand how the NFL market works. Just a terrible owner - he deserves all the flak he is receiving.
Wait until he retires  
Dave on the UWS : 10/20/2021 7:19 am : link
and the Mara 50% ownership is split between 11 voices. That will be tragically comical!
MS, I’ve often made this point..  
Sean : 10/20/2021 7:27 am : link
The Giants have never rebuilt. They constantly look for short term fixes and I blame Mara for that.

This really started when he gave Reese a win or else mandate after 2015. This forced them to buy a defense and then everything blew up. Regardless of what you thought about retaining Reese, if the decision was to retain him he should have been given a contract extension - GM’s cannot operate with short term win now mandates.

The same thing is happening with Gettleman now. After this year, there needs to be a full commitment to a 2-3 year rebuild plan. Playoffs should not even be mentioned.
This Season is NOT on Mara  
Rafflee : 10/20/2021 7:35 am : link
He provided Money and His staff (Judge and Gettleman) made the Choices. Rudoplph: cannot be defended as a Move, financially or player wise. Their OL Composition/lack of Draft at that position cannot be defended---they mis-measured their own players.

The young injuries on the OL may have crippled them anyway, but they stated out with a Motley Crew....incluiding PEATR, who could not maintain a position over NS.

It appears that they don't know what NFL players look like. This is BOTH a GM and HC problem. They choose and they Play the wrong Guys
I always thought the biggest mistake  
Lines of Scrimmage : 10/20/2021 7:45 am : link
was trying to milk the last good Giants OL too long and not having drafted talent ready to take over. That coupled with a lack of emphasis on players that influence the physical aspect of a game was the downfall.

Maybe not a Super Bowl year but I think they would have been in the playoffs a few more times and we would be looking at things much differently.

You had the QB. You had the HC. What they didn't have were the players in box (front 7/OL) to influence the physical aspect of the game. Just look at the drafts from 2012 thereafter and you see a huge shift in the type of player drafted.
Other than Toney  
mattlawson : 10/20/2021 8:05 am : link
I’m not aware of another rookie making such an immediate contribution under the current GM
RE: That he meddles at all is the problem  
joeinpa : 10/20/2021 8:07 am : link
In comment 15422270 armstead98 said:
Quote:
All meddling owners think they’re doing it to help the team because they know best. The thing is they don’t and need to say out.


If you owned an NFL Franchise, you would stay in the background, with no input, I wouldn’t. I d want to be involved.

If he s overriding decisions of the so called professionals he hired, that s a problem, but still understandable,expectations to the contrary are unrealistic.

The problem with John Mara has not been being involved, it s about poor choices, a.k. a. staying to long with Reese. Hiring Dave Gettleman, loyalty to a family based business when an outside influence is needed, loyalty to Eli when it was obvious that era was over.

I get the Eli thing, were I owner back in the Simms days, I would never have allowed him to be released.

But the idea that Mara doesn’t care of course is wrong it might be his love of this team that hinders his decision making
No, Joe I don’t agree  
cosmicj : 10/20/2021 8:27 am : link
Meddling leads to negative results which leads to meddling which leads to…
RE: MS, I’ve often made this point..  
cosmicj : 10/20/2021 8:28 am : link
In comment 15422282 Sean said:
Quote:
The Giants have never rebuilt. They constantly look for short term fixes and I blame Mara for that.

This really started when he gave Reese a win or else mandate after 2015. This forced them to buy a defense and then everything blew up. Regardless of what you thought about retaining Reese, if the decision was to retain him he should have been given a contract extension - GM’s cannot operate with short term win now mandates.

The same thing is happening with Gettleman now. After this year, there needs to be a full commitment to a 2-3 year rebuild plan. Playoffs should not even be mentioned.


Good point about Reese’s mandate. Another stupid instance of meddling.

John Mara has a really easy job and he’s still bad at it.
I think there is plenty of evidence  
bigbluehoya : 10/20/2021 8:29 am : link
that there is a failure of process in the way decisions are made.

Process-related stuff aside, it's undeniable to me that they kept Eli for at least 2 seasons too long, and cost themselves real cap dollars in the process. That was the biggest roster misstep they made, in my opinion (have to keep in mind, if they had moved on from Eli when I am suggesting, it's highly unlikely that they would have pursued Solder to the level of over-payment that they did).
The loyalty thing is a two edged sword  
BillT : 10/20/2021 8:37 am : link
There is nothing inherently wrong with it. And there are numerous examples of players and coaches praising the atmosphere it produced. However, after Reese the club needed a new direction and his loyalty to EA, DG and Eli got in the way of a fresh start that was desperately needed. And even a new regime would have probably kept Eli for a least a year as there was no one else. Now, four years later and we face the same thing.
RE: Other than Toney  
fanoftheteam : 10/20/2021 8:44 am : link
In comment 15422297 mattlawson said:
Quote:
I’m not aware of another rookie making such an immediate contribution under the current GM



Saqouns Rookie year was historic fwiw
It is ALL Maras fault...  
Kanavis : 10/20/2021 8:55 am : link
He is responsible for DG in the first place. What team do you know that hasn't had a GM come from outside the organization for so long? Who would spend 5 minutes with DG and come away thinking that guy is perfect for the modern game?

Let's go back to MacAdoo. You have an owner that was actually involved in the decision to bench Eli and then overreacted when MacAdoo botched it. That overreaction set in motion a chain of events we are still dealing with. It meant the mandate for the next GM and coach was to build around Eli. Rather than having someone take a cold hard look at his declining skill set we hired someone, from the organization, who not only decided to build around him, but also did it in the image of the 70s oilers with Campbell or Rams with Dickerson. He talked about the run game at the peak of the passing era.

indo think he tries and cares. That is the problem. These decisions are hard and unsentimental. He cannot make them that way because he is always reacting. This is on Mara and no one else. Reese should have been gone with TC and a great GM should have been brought in the appraise the situation analytically not emotionally.

I guess what I was also trying to say is that  
M.S. : 10/20/2021 8:55 am : link

John Mara can never be accused of indifference.

Many have pointed out that he's just a trust baby who inherited the team, and that he makes huge amounts of money no matter what happens. That almost implies that he doesn't really care.

If anything, maybe John Mara can be faulted because he cares too much and the temptation has been for him to exert his authority rather than delegate critical football decisions to others.
RE: This Season is NOT on Mara  
rsjem1979 : 10/20/2021 8:58 am : link
In comment 15422286 Rafflee said:
Quote:
He provided Money and His staff (Judge and Gettleman) made the Choices. Rudoplph: cannot be defended as a Move, financially or player wise. Their OL Composition/lack of Draft at that position cannot be defended---they mis-measured their own players.

The young injuries on the OL may have crippled them anyway, but they stated out with a Motley Crew....incluiding PEATR, who could not maintain a position over NS.

It appears that they don't know what NFL players look like. This is BOTH a GM and HC problem. They choose and they Play the wrong Guys


John Mara doesn't know what a modern NFL GM and organization looks like.

The fact that Dave Gettleman is here at all is proof positive of that. There isn't another NFL franchise that would have even considered hiring him for that role at that time - or ever again.
Mara  
Les in TO : 10/20/2021 9:03 am : link
Cares and I don’t believe he meddles in free agency or the draft. I think he wants to be informed about major decisions but leaves the decisions to the GM and coach. But his defect is not doing a good job of recruiting for GM and head coach. McAdoo Shurmur Judge and Gettleman were hired based on familiarity or overvaluing how they interview. He needs to look beyond the building or his immediate network and also really consider more than how a candidate talks or how they performed at a lower level position
I don't doubt he has temper tantrums  
Mike from Ohio : 10/20/2021 9:05 am : link
time and again with the people he hired. He comes across as very entitled and petulant. But did he actually dictate moves he wanted them to make and players he wanted them to draft? I seriously doubt that.

I don't doubt there was some win now pressure, but that was coming from the fact that the moves the team made in the first 3 years did not produce any tangible progress. If he "forced" bad moves in year 4, it was only because of the prior bad moves in years 1-3.

RE: I guess what I was also trying to say is that  
Enzo : 10/20/2021 9:12 am : link
In comment 15422341 M.S. said:
Quote:

John Mara can never be accused of indifference.

Many have pointed out that he's just a trust baby who inherited the team, and that he makes huge amounts of money no matter what happens. That almost implies that he doesn't really care.

If anything, maybe John Mara can be faulted because he cares too much and the temptation has been for him to exert his authority rather than delegate critical football decisions to others.

of course he wakes up every day wanting to win. But does he care enough to look in the mirror and be critical of his own decisisons? Did he care enough to do a real search for a GM 4 years ago instead of interviewing mostly in-house and/or familiar candidates? Does he care enough to have a tough conversation with this brother regarding his role in the team? A brother who left during the draft one year to attend the Kentucky Derby....
RE: MS, I’ve often made this point..  
Section331 : 10/20/2021 9:16 am : link
In comment 15422282 Sean said:
Quote:
The Giants have never rebuilt. They constantly look for short term fixes and I blame Mara for that.


Good post Sean, right on point.

As others have said, if Mara is putting his thumb on the scale (which many of us suspected anyway), I don't see how that reflects well on him. I appreciate his passion, and I know none of us want the Giants to win more than he does, but this only shows that his head is further up his ass than any of us thought. That he alone has all of the answers, when he has very few.
RE: RE: I guess what I was also trying to say is that  
Les in TO : 10/20/2021 9:19 am : link
In comment 15422361 Enzo said:
Quote:
In comment 15422341 M.S. said:


Quote:



John Mara can never be accused of indifference.

Many have pointed out that he's just a trust baby who inherited the team, and that he makes huge amounts of money no matter what happens. That almost implies that he doesn't really care.

If anything, maybe John Mara can be faulted because he cares too much and the temptation has been for him to exert his authority rather than delegate critical football decisions to others.


of course he wakes up every day wanting to win. But does he care enough to look in the mirror and be critical of his own decisisons? Did he care enough to do a real search for a GM 4 years ago instead of interviewing mostly in-house and/or familiar candidates? Does he care enough to have a tough conversation with this brother regarding his role in the team? A brother who left during the draft one year to attend the Kentucky Derby....
At the end of year press conference where he hopefully announces a cleaned house, I’d like him to take accountability to Giants fans for the disaster of the last 4 years by not doing a good enough job in hiring and commit to a through and extensive search for the next GM and coach. He also should really hire a management consulting firm to expose the problems within the organization
the giants had young teams in 2014, 2015  
djm : 10/20/2021 9:20 am : link
2019 and 2020. They have most definitely rebuilt.

Don't confuse the results with the the methodology. Eli was there in 14-15 but the team was young across the board. Then they went all in for 2016-2017. It failed. Same with now.

The Giants have lacked a superior coaching staff since 2012-2013 when the bottom fell out and ownership/mgmt replaced Gillbride with McAdoo. They were taking on water at that point due to bad drafts and bad FA moves. That was domino #1. 2015 was domino #2 when they replaced Coughlin with McAdoo.

The whole thing is broken, but it starts and ends with the HC/GM.
look back at those OLines  
djm : 10/20/2021 9:24 am : link
2015 we had Flowers, (young) Richburg, (young) Pugh, (3rd year) a stop gap at RG who sucked or was always hurt and Bobby Hard, also young. The RB was Jennings. Stop gap. The Defense that year filled with babies, including Landon Collins. The WRs were composed of Randle and BEckham, both young. The TE was Donnell, again, young.

They aren't drafting and finding enough good players and they aren't developing players and putting players in a position to succeed. Simple as that. The Giants LOVE to rebuild. They love to exhibit patience, sometimes to a fault. How many young players have they stuck with for far too long? Too many to count.
last year's team  
djm : 10/20/2021 9:26 am : link
the entire OL was virtually composed of rookies. QB was in his 2nd year. The defense had 5-6 young players.

I'm with you, djm  
The Jake : 10/20/2021 9:37 am : link
we've definitely TRIED to rebuild, but we do it half-assed and at the wrong time vis a vis our draft capital and leverage.

We now need a COMPLETE rebuild, orchestrated by someone completely different and detached from ownership, and we need it ASAP.
When talking about management and ownership  
JFIB : 10/20/2021 9:48 am : link
We have to consider the scouting on this team. It's horrendous. I think Enzo said it above but any head of scouting that decides to attend the Derby during the draft is not invested enough in his job to hold the position. Our scouting department has really not done a good enough job.
Regime Stability  
JB_in_DC : 10/20/2021 9:50 am : link
is so important to winning in the NFL. The rich stay rich in this league because their management is able to make decisions on a longer term time horizon. They don't get mandates, they don't have owners breathing down their necks.

The best Giants draft pick of the past decade and a half is a perfect example of this, the Giants drafting JPP in 2010. They already had Kiwi, Tuck, and Umenyiora on the roster at D End. The regime had a recent championship, so had the ability to make such a pick. They weren't plugging holes in the current season's starting lineup to increase short term playoff hopes.

To be fair, the Giants did make a decision like this in 2021, when they traded down. I think that decision more than anything shows how high their hopes were for Judge and this current iteration of the team. They need to clean up the operation - but more decisions like that need to happen. No more See Hole Plug Hole. Build the goddamn trenches, and keep building them.
John Mara DOES care and he really DOES want to win..  
EricJ : 10/20/2021 10:30 am : link
he just thinks he and his family are part of the solution unfortunately.

John Mara is Tommy Boy... the car is The Giants


I still stand by  
djm : 10/20/2021 11:00 am : link
my assertion that if the Giants had good (not even great) talent surrounding Eli from 13-19 we win plenty of games and make the postseason more than half the time. Eli wasn't the problem. The entire team was. They didn't need to draft a QB from 13-18. They needed to draft better players. The Steelers won 11 games with Big Ben last year.

Eli wasn't elite on his back 9, but he was good enough to win and still probably had some late game mojo left in that arm of his, but the team was shit.

And Jones would win if this team was built and coached correctly. Jones isn't elite either, obviously, but he's good enough to win with at this current moment.
RE: I guess what I was also trying to say is that  
MotownGIANTS : 10/20/2021 5:23 pm : link
In comment 15422341 M.S. said:
Quote:

John Mara can never be accused of indifference.

Many have pointed out that he's just a trust baby who inherited the team, and that he makes huge amounts of money no matter what happens. That almost implies that he doesn't really care.

If anything, maybe John Mara can be faulted because he cares too much and the temptation has been for him to exert his authority rather than delegate critical football decisions to others.


Agreed ...

A good leader know when how to listen and how to delegate when the time comes ...
RE: Other than Toney  
Doug in MA : 10/20/2021 5:59 pm : link
In comment 15422297 mattlawson said:
Quote:
I’m not aware of another rookie making such an immediate contribution under the current GM


Barkley.
RE: Mara  
FStubbs : 10/20/2021 7:06 pm : link
In comment 15422348 Les in TO said:
Quote:
Cares and I don’t believe he meddles in free agency or the draft. I think he wants to be informed about major decisions but leaves the decisions to the GM and coach. But his defect is not doing a good job of recruiting for GM and head coach. McAdoo Shurmur Judge and Gettleman were hired based on familiarity or overvaluing how they interview. He needs to look beyond the building or his immediate network and also really consider more than how a candidate talks or how they performed at a lower level position


He, Chris Mara and Tim McDonnell are part of the "committee" approach the Giants use. Gettleman is awful, but if he wants to go one way, and Chris Mara wants to go another, which way do you think the Giants will go?
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