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Does Patrick Graham get fired after this season?

WinterIsComing : 10/20/2021 9:42 am
I really don’t know what happens after this season. I mean, how many times can we ‘rebuild’? PG I thought would be a HC candidate in ‘22 - now I’m thinking Gmen will have to fire him?

Yes we had injuries. Yes, I think Adoree has been a bust, which has hurt the secondary. But overall it’s the same defensive personal as last year.

This defense just can’t seem to generate any pressure or stop the run. (I personally wouldn’t mind if we went back a 4-3). Thoughts?
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Yes, and I think Judge needs to pull him from playcalling now  
sb from NYT Forum : 10/20/2021 10:04 am : link
...to protect himself. He needs the Giants ownership to see him as a leader that's willing to do anything to win.

I also think Judge needs to start building a narrative internally that NO team could win with the so-called talent that Gettleman assembled.
He had better pull things together as this defense is embarrasing  
Jimmy Googs : 10/20/2021 10:08 am : link
themselves. We lost Blake Martinez, not Dick Butkus.

Quite a fall from grace for Graham...
RE: RE: RE: Yes  
joeinpa : 10/20/2021 10:10 am : link
In comment 15422458 Sammo85 said:
Quote:
In comment 15422436 joeinpa said:


Quote:


In comment 15422415 Essex said:


Quote:


but probably only because Judge will be let go. If Judge stays, I doubt he will get fired. They're buddies and he went out of his way to get him if I remember correctly.



I think Judge and Graham return

This Giants defense, outside of Leo, cannot beat the man in front of them. In today s NFL, there is no way to cover up a lack of pass rush, believe the Giants are 29th in the league at creating pressures.

Better edge rushers and linebackers would make Graham a very effective D C,

It s time to have some stability in this organization, changing coaches every 2 years hasn’t worked out so well

A good coach wins when they have good players, no coach wins with bad ones.

Hope the Giants realize this



Problem is they need to completely clean out the executives in front office (all of them). Gettleman, Abrams, Sternfeld, Petit.

If you do that, the new honcho has every right to dictate bringing his own people in, which is why we've had this ridiculous "Giants Family Way" approach going on a decade. Mara's instinct is to just keep moving people from within like it's some kind of ferris wheel or horse carousel.

All you do is delay things more by 1-2 years. Very risky.


Yes, agree, new GM might want new coaches. But that would mean JJ is gone too, I don’t see that as likely, but that could change, there is a lot of season left.
RE: Yes, and I think Judge needs to pull him from playcalling now  
NJLCO : 10/20/2021 10:14 am : link
In comment 15422463 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
...to protect himself. He needs the Giants ownership to see him as a leader that's willing to do anything to win.

I also think Judge needs to start building a narrative internally that NO team could win with the so-called talent that Gettleman assembled.


I got that JJ needs to show he’s the guy but for him to take over the D makes no sense to me. How does that help us? If he was a DC before vs. an ST coach I’d get it but he wasn’t.
RE: Wait  
BlueHurricane : 10/20/2021 10:16 am : link
In comment 15422420 fanoftheteam said:
Quote:
I thought he had 10 head coaching jobs lined up


Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Graham  
TyreeHelmet : 10/20/2021 10:17 am : link
Can't play the injury card. He's lost one key player- Martinez. Nice player but not exactly Ray Lewis in his prime. We'll see how the season plays out but the Rams and Cowboys could have scored 50 on them if they wanted to.

He has been out schemed a bunch this season. The preparation from him and Judge as a whole has been disappointing.
Yea, as others have mentioned, I just can’t see  
Simms11 : 10/20/2021 10:28 am : link
Judge firing Graham, his buddy and assistant HC, unless Mara forces him to and I don’t believe he’ll do that. I think we’re stuck with the while regime. Garrett might be the exception, if they give Judge a choice.
Yes  
Joe Beckwith : 10/20/2021 10:28 am : link
Unless his HC or higher said switch to C2 no matter what.
RE: RE: Yes, and I think Judge needs to pull him from playcalling now  
sb from NYT Forum : 10/20/2021 10:37 am : link
In comment 15422484 NJLCO said:
Quote:
In comment 15422463 sb from NYT Forum said:


Quote:


...to protect himself. He needs the Giants ownership to see him as a leader that's willing to do anything to win.

I also think Judge needs to start building a narrative internally that NO team could win with the so-called talent that Gettleman assembled.



I got that JJ needs to show he’s the guy but for him to take over the D makes no sense to me. How does that help us? If he was a DC before vs. an ST coach I’d get it but he wasn’t.


Only for optics. No other reason.
RE: Switching to full 4-3 would take time  
Dankbeerman : 10/20/2021 10:58 am : link
In comment 15422426 JonC said:
Quote:
A lot of football left to be played, and figure there will be considerable reluctance to change coaches again.


when you need to throw away your edge rushers and get more of them anyway it doesnt take much more time.
Fire PG  
Giants : 10/20/2021 10:59 am : link
Now. He is the wrong guy for the job
honestly i hope none of these guys get fired  
Platos : 10/20/2021 11:02 am : link
besides DG.

lets see this staff work with an actual OL and a defense with more than 1 LB and some actual edge rushers.

i'm even willing to give garrett a break.

sometimes too many rebuilds in a row is going to take a while to bounce back into contention.

what the cardinals are doing is unprecedented. you don't get to take advantage of a lame duck GM/Coach in O'brien all the time. moving on from Rosen after 1 year probably took a lot of convincing too. also they haven't made the playoffs yet. lets not get ahead of ourselves.

i'd rather get these guys to a point where we have a decent roster and then blow up the staff and let the new staff work with something. not a bare cupboard of mistakes like the shurmur/mcadoo eras

2016 was a mirage.
RE: RE: Switching to full 4-3 would take time  
JonC : 10/20/2021 11:07 am : link
In comment 15422573 Dankbeerman said:
Quote:
In comment 15422426 JonC said:


Quote:


A lot of football left to be played, and figure there will be considerable reluctance to change coaches again.



when you need to throw away your edge rushers and get more of them anyway it doesnt take much more time.


Yeah, but now you're talking about finding DEs, different types of LBs (think speed), and possibly a DC change.

It will happen sooner or later, am just saying it means more time starting over.

@Sammo, on target. As bad as the first six games have gone, I could see Mara deciding to use the injuries excuse and give the coaches another year. But, then when to approach the DG subject is a fly in the ointment.

For me, just more reasons to say it's time to burn it out down, including the execs you listed. Time's up.
Not if Judge is still the HC  
US1 Giants : 10/20/2021 11:08 am : link
,
I think they move on from DG  
UberAlias : 10/20/2021 11:45 am : link
But retain the staff. Hopefully we see more FO shake up, but I won't hold my breath.
The Mara's have forced coaching changes before  
Section331 : 10/20/2021 11:57 am : link
with TC - Hufnagel, Tim Lewis, hell, even a SB-winning OC in Gilbride. I think they do the same here and Graham is the fall guy. Garrett should go too, but I doubt that happens, they'll want "continuity", and not saddle their "young" QB with another system (even if this one sucks).

I think they will allow DG to gracefully retire, he's a lifetime Giant and they won't want to embarrass him unless they absolutely have to. Allowing that is fine, unless they decide to promote a replacement from within. Then the misery continues.
I really dont understand  
ron mexico : 10/20/2021 12:08 pm : link
we we go from a pretty good Def last year to what we are seeing now without losing any key players (and adding a few)

were we really not that good? OCs around the league figured the scheme out?



I think we saw career years from our key players  
JonC : 10/20/2021 12:16 pm : link
and this year only LW is performing anywhere near 2020. A lot of very good, proven veterans are having poor seasons in 2021.

Also, think Graham's is getting his lunch eaten and when that happens the players know it, which erodes confidence further along with injuries.
It’s not the same  
g56blue10 : 10/20/2021 12:21 pm : link
Roster as last year.. both our edge rushers are different this year.. and even thought they weren't great last year they we’re least average.. what we have got this year is well below average and think that is the difference
Doubt it. He's also the Assistant Coach. Probably doesn't get fired  
Blue21 : 10/20/2021 12:27 pm : link
unless Judge does.
Shouldn't have been hired in the first place  
HomerJones45 : 10/20/2021 12:50 pm : link
What did you people expect? Miami unloaded him after one year. He had career years from several players backing him up last season.
Unless things change dramatically...  
bw in dc : 10/20/2021 12:59 pm : link
Graham, Garrett and Judge should all be put on notice.

If Mara wasn't such a dove, he should step up with a presser and tell the fanbase everyone is on notice. Either get this fixed, or call your real estate agents.
RE: I really dont understand  
SirLoinOfBeef : 10/20/2021 1:32 pm : link
In comment 15422715 ron mexico said:
Quote:
we we go from a pretty good Def last year to what we are seeing now without losing any key players (and adding a few)

were we really not that good? OCs around the league figured the scheme out?




Happens when your players aren't as good as you think they are. The big money players- Williams/Bradbury/Jackson/Ryan are fine players- not great ones. They can have a very good season here and there but aren't year-in year-out all pros.

Problem is, were paying for great and not even getting fine play out of them. Maybe Williams, but he sins worth $26mm this year for sure.
RE: I think we saw career years from our key players  
Sammo85 : 10/20/2021 2:30 pm : link
In comment 15422728 JonC said:
Quote:
and this year only LW is performing anywhere near 2020. A lot of very good, proven veterans are having poor seasons in 2021.

Also, think Graham's is getting his lunch eaten and when that happens the players know it, which erodes confidence further along with injuries.


Yep. It's a bit of a Cinderella dance with coordinators. Sometimes it's about timing and some luck/magic.

But when you get a protracted record of really bad decisions and results playing out, it's hard to recover from when you start to hit double-digit games. Unless Graham turns it around soon (unlikely based on opponents), he's in for a possible harsh reassessment from last year including potentially not having a coordinator job, forget about being a "HC candidate". Graham's problem is he's become victim of some success last year, and despite getting some better athletes in, the scheme has been destroyed at times, and some players don't seem to be able to get job done (including few that were excelling last year).

They don't call it the NFL - "Not For Long". It's not just players. When you evolve into a sports business, results matter and it's a hypersensitive environment at every level (physical infrastructure, entertainment, financial, personal).
Looking at Miami’s sack totals  
Giants73 : 10/20/2021 3:44 pm : link
After Graham left the sack numbers jumped from dead last with him to 10th the following year. With the play of Lo Carter O Zim, we all kind of dump it on them. Can Graham’s poor defense designs actually be limiting how they are attacking the QB. Ximines in his rookie year although at a small scale had one of the higher win ratios. Carter in a small sample size his first two years, looked to get after the QB at a higher win rate as well. Usually, just poor tackling preventing a lot of sacks. Seems the three edge rushers they have do mostly bull rush with sometimes just outside leverage(contain type). The stats for last games I see posted at 111 snaps, 0 pressures. At most the giants bring 4 guys, I have to think these edges are dropping. Rams had 31 pass plays, all three were never on the field together. Not sure how these numbers add up. You figure at most there should have been 62 pass rush attempts Sunday between the 3 of them.
Will he? and Should he? are two very different questions...  
EricJ : 10/20/2021 3:52 pm : link
The Giants will find one scapegoat and will sell false promises to the fans once more.

We will hear John Mara tell us how nobody is more disappointed than he is.

We will hear how this WAS going to be our rebound season ....but the injuries.

We will hear how we are only 2-3 players away.

We will sign a free agent that gets everyone excited but in reality will not make much difference for a team that has more problems than a used Jeep
RE: Wait  
GMen72 : 10/20/2021 4:11 pm : link
In comment 15422420 fanoftheteam said:
Quote:
I thought he had 10 head coaching jobs lined up


Yeah...where are the BBI folks telling all of us both Graham and Garrett would be head coaches by 2022? They both should unemployed.
RE: Looking at Miami’s sack totals  
Section331 : 10/20/2021 4:35 pm : link
In comment 15422982 Giants73 said:
Quote:
After Graham left the sack numbers jumped from dead last with him to 10th the following year. With the play of Lo Carter O Zim, we all kind of dump it on them. Can Graham’s poor defense designs actually be limiting how they are attacking the QB. Ximines in his rookie year although at a small scale had one of the higher win ratios. Carter in a small sample size his first two years, looked to get after the QB at a higher win rate as well. Usually, just poor tackling preventing a lot of sacks. Seems the three edge rushers they have do mostly bull rush with sometimes just outside leverage(contain type). The stats for last games I see posted at 111 snaps, 0 pressures. At most the giants bring 4 guys, I have to think these edges are dropping. Rams had 31 pass plays, all three were never on the field together. Not sure how these numbers add up. You figure at most there should have been 62 pass rush attempts Sunday between the 3 of them.


That's a fair question. As I said, if the Giants elect to keep Judge, I think Graham is the fall guy.
Today my answer is….  
5BowlsSoon : 10/20/2021 5:28 pm : link
Let’s blow it all up. But first…..we have to Hire a new GM and let him decide what to do.

I have a feeling all 3 amigos may be gone with a new GM.
Everybody’s getting fired  
jeff57 : 10/20/2021 5:55 pm : link
.
Agree that if JJ stays....  
Kanavis : 10/20/2021 7:42 pm : link
we keep Graham. He has a very good relationship with JJ and is the assistant HC. I don't however, feel like he deserves to stay. The defensive game plans are terrible. They essentially play with 10 players on every down...sometimes 9. Teams seem to have their DBs play off more than ever this year. But he takes this to a new level.

There are no stunts or creative pass rush schemes. Sometimes in a game, he will actually run one, and it will work, and then he doesn't do it again. The DBs can help in the run game - at all. Even Peppers who could excel. No...better to have him covering the Rams best receiver. There are no adjustments or even changes week to week.

You can use the injury excuse for the office (which gets no pass either) but the defense is healthy enough. He needs to go. But he won't.
JJ can’t move on from Patriots super friends  
Jint Fan in Buc Land : 10/20/2021 9:29 pm : link
Solder and Ebner and he’s going to fire his best friend and assistant HC????

Better chance Garrett is made next HC by Mara
I thought the biggest concern with Graham  
mattnyg05 : 10/20/2021 9:33 pm : link
Was finding a way to keep him after this season.

Boy was I wrong.
WTH Happened?  
Andrew in Austin : 10/21/2021 9:36 am : link
ALL of us thought this guys was a genius last year. I'll admit that I loved watching an actual NYG defense that could play after so many years of crap and I attributed it all to him. I hope he figures it out - it is like we took 2 steps back.

I don't think he goes anywhere - they asked him to stay and gave him a nice contract . . . though if we are 1-16, maybe they blow this whole thing up.
I have a hard time seeing him staying,  
Angel Eyes : 10/21/2021 10:44 pm : link
Given that he has a lot of trouble adjusting in-game, with quarterbacks being able to complete passes because there isn’t a pass rusher within 5-10 yards of him because Graham is trying to play contain or that the defensive back is playing 10 yards off the receiver. It’s almost insane, seeing the defense do the same thing when it isn’t working. But someone will probably insist on Graham keeping his job.

As for converting to a 4-3 defense, I have a thread concerning that topic. I say yes, but how? What has to change?
Should the Giants change to a 4-3? - ( New Window )
I didn't think Graham was a genius last season  
JonC : 10/22/2021 9:47 am : link
A number of defenders put up career years, and we knew it if you paid attention. They had many of the same problems, just in lesser form. This year, it's a shit show and then throw in the injuries. Graham doesn't have enough to work with, and even when they were relatively healthy he was calling a ton of soft zones to protect against its weaknesses.

That in itself is a bad sign.
As for what went well for the secondary last season,  
Angel Eyes : 10/22/2021 9:51 am : link
what did Graham do last year that he isn't doing this year? And if the stuff he's doing this year is the same as last year, why isn't it working this year?
Last year, he ran more man press  
JonC : 10/22/2021 9:59 am : link
the run defense was a bit better up the middle, he sent more bodies on the blitz and it was all more effective. This year, they can't stop the run, the pass rush is zero unless the backend generates a coverage sack, and the backend is really playing down as individuals and as a whole. Graham appears to be coaching scared as a result. When you fear crippling mistakes, you tend to make them.
RE: Last year, he ran more man press  
Angel Eyes : 10/22/2021 10:01 am : link
In comment 15424673 JonC said:
Quote:
the run defense was a bit better up the middle, he sent more bodies on the blitz and it was all more effective. This year, they can't stop the run, the pass rush is zero unless the backend generates a coverage sack, and the backend is really playing down as individuals and as a whole. Graham appears to be coaching scared as a result. When you fear crippling mistakes, you tend to make them.

I'm surprised he isn't running more man press, given that's what Adoree Jackson was signed to do.
Their edge play stinks other than some ok moments from a rookie  
JonC : 10/22/2021 10:02 am : link
their ILB play stinks, the DBs look like they're trying to do too much rather than their fundamentals jobs, which tends to create gaps in the mesh.

It's damned hard to run a pro defense with poor LBs, and journeymen NTs.
Signing Adoree  
JonC : 10/22/2021 10:03 am : link
is another symptom in their larger problems. Bad, desperate signing bidding against themselves.
The Adoree Jackson signing was an odd one. Most fans  
Jimmy Googs : 10/22/2021 10:31 am : link
agreed that the 2nd CB spot was weak, and that they were gameplanning as best they could around it last year...sometimes with success, sometimes not.

Jackson was somewhat a surprise release at the beginning of free agency by the Titans. And when he was, the Giants pushed all their chips in to not only bring him in but also to never let him leave with a signed deal. The bigger issue, at least to me, was why was he so coveted by Getts/FO? Especially since the Titans were just letting this 1st round pick walk without even negotiating with him.

However almost all of BBI applauded this deal, even with a relatively expensive contract. But it is looking like Jackson is not only a miss with dollars but also on player evaluation...yet again.
without a signed deal  
Jimmy Googs : 10/22/2021 10:32 am : link
***
RE: Their edge play stinks other than some ok moments from a rookie  
Angel Eyes : 10/22/2021 11:01 am : link
In comment 15424677 JonC said:
Quote:
their ILB play stinks, the DBs look like they're trying to do too much rather than their fundamentals jobs, which tends to create gaps in the mesh.

It's damned hard to run a pro defense with poor LBs, and journeymen NTs.

I've been wondering if Graham isn't using his players right, like putting Peppers on the elusive Cooper Kupp. Also with Ojulari, Ojulari is good at getting around the offensive lineman with bend and a rip move; neither has shown up on gameday. He's not a power guy.
RE: I didn't think Graham was a genius last season  
Angel Eyes : 10/22/2021 6:04 pm : link
In comment 15424654 JonC said:
Quote:
A number of defenders put up career years, and we knew it if you paid attention. They had many of the same problems, just in lesser form. This year, it's a shit show and then throw in the injuries. Graham doesn't have enough to work with, and even when they were relatively healthy he was calling a ton of soft zones to protect against its weaknesses.

That in itself is a bad sign.

I wasn't as enamored of Graham, given I had a lot of doubts about his ability to work up an effective pass rush (one of my first threads was saying that his concept of "pass rush by committee" was a bad sign). Didn't expect the secondary to just jump off a cliff so to speak, I thought this year would be more like what you see with New England defenses: a lot of PDs, sacks in the 35-range. It's insanity seeing the same thing happen every play and no bothering to change things up: personnel, angles, pass rush moves.
Let Judge decide  
xtian : 10/24/2021 12:36 pm : link
we need to ride with Judge another year or two instead of being knee-jerky fire everyone all the time.

I definitely am surprised at how poorly the Defense has played. I thought graham had similar results with Miami: a good year followed by a bad year. [yeah, same with Spags, several times].

As far as the offense, the injuries are ridiculous and they get a pass. seems we will get back quite a few players within a couple of weeks, but the season will be lost by then. it will be grow for next year. ugh, always next year.
RE: The Adoree Jackson signing was an odd one. Most fans  
EricJ : 10/24/2021 12:47 pm : link
In comment 15424716 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
agreed that the 2nd CB spot was weak, and that they were gameplanning as best they could around it last year...sometimes with success, sometimes not.

Jackson was somewhat a surprise release at the beginning of free agency by the Titans. And when he was, the Giants pushed all their chips in to not only bring him in but also to never let him leave with a signed deal. The bigger issue, at least to me, was why was he so coveted by Getts/FO? Especially since the Titans were just letting this 1st round pick walk without even negotiating with him.

However almost all of BBI applauded this deal, even with a relatively expensive contract. But it is looking like Jackson is not only a miss with dollars but also on player evaluation...yet again.


Jackson is not the real problem here. it is scheme..
RE: Let Judge decide  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/24/2021 12:49 pm : link
In comment 15426254 xtian said:
Quote:
we need to ride with Judge another year or two instead of being knee-jerky fire everyone all the time.


They lose the games the should have won, and got blown out in the games they should have lost. It's not really knee-jerk at all.
won't get fired  
bc4life : 10/24/2021 12:49 pm : link
shouldn't get fired, IMO

But, there is a lot of football to be played, he'll get evaluated as well as the players
I'm thinking a clean sweep of the coaching staff with Judge gone  
GFAN52 : 10/24/2021 12:51 pm : link
along with Gettleman if they don't start winning a few games.
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