I really don’t know what happens after this season. I mean, how many times can we ‘rebuild’? PG I thought would be a HC candidate in ‘22 - now I’m thinking Gmen will have to fire him?
Yes we had injuries. Yes, I think Adoree has been a bust, which has hurt the secondary. But overall it’s the same defensive personal as last year.
This defense just can’t seem to generate any pressure or stop the run. (I personally wouldn’t mind if we went back a 4-3). Thoughts?
He hasn't been given much to work with. He hasn't done much with what he has.
Which, at this point, seems like a real possibility.
I think Judge and Graham return
This Giants defense, outside of Leo, cannot beat the man in front of them. In today s NFL, there is no way to cover up a lack of pass rush, believe the Giants are 29th in the league at creating pressures.
Better edge rushers and linebackers would make Graham a very effective D C,
It s time to have some stability in this organization, changing coaches every 2 years hasn’t worked out so well
A good coach wins when they have good players, no coach wins with bad ones.
Hope the Giants realize this
I could see a situation where Judge is strong-armed into firing his coordinators in order to keep his job.
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but probably only because Judge will be let go. If Judge stays, I doubt he will get fired. They're buddies and he went out of his way to get him if I remember correctly.
I think Judge and Graham return
This Giants defense, outside of Leo, cannot beat the man in front of them. In today s NFL, there is no way to cover up a lack of pass rush, believe the Giants are 29th in the league at creating pressures.
Better edge rushers and linebackers would make Graham a very effective D C,
It s time to have some stability in this organization, changing coaches every 2 years hasn’t worked out so well
A good coach wins when they have good players, no coach wins with bad ones.
Hope the Giants realize this
Problem is they need to completely clean out the executives in front office (all of them). Gettleman, Abrams, Sternfeld, Petit.
If you do that, the new honcho has every right to dictate bringing his own people in, which is why we've had this ridiculous "Giants Family Way" approach going on a decade. Mara's instinct is to just keep moving people from within like it's some kind of ferris wheel or horse carousel.
All you do is delay things more by 1-2 years. Very risky.
I also think Judge needs to start building a narrative internally that NO team could win with the so-called talent that Gettleman assembled.
Quite a fall from grace for Graham...
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In comment 15422415 Essex said:
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but probably only because Judge will be let go. If Judge stays, I doubt he will get fired. They're buddies and he went out of his way to get him if I remember correctly.
I think Judge and Graham return
This Giants defense, outside of Leo, cannot beat the man in front of them. In today s NFL, there is no way to cover up a lack of pass rush, believe the Giants are 29th in the league at creating pressures.
Better edge rushers and linebackers would make Graham a very effective D C,
It s time to have some stability in this organization, changing coaches every 2 years hasn’t worked out so well
A good coach wins when they have good players, no coach wins with bad ones.
Hope the Giants realize this
Problem is they need to completely clean out the executives in front office (all of them). Gettleman, Abrams, Sternfeld, Petit.
If you do that, the new honcho has every right to dictate bringing his own people in, which is why we've had this ridiculous "Giants Family Way" approach going on a decade. Mara's instinct is to just keep moving people from within like it's some kind of ferris wheel or horse carousel.
All you do is delay things more by 1-2 years. Very risky.
Yes, agree, new GM might want new coaches. But that would mean JJ is gone too, I don’t see that as likely, but that could change, there is a lot of season left.
I also think Judge needs to start building a narrative internally that NO team could win with the so-called talent that Gettleman assembled.
I got that JJ needs to show he’s the guy but for him to take over the D makes no sense to me. How does that help us? If he was a DC before vs. an ST coach I’d get it but he wasn’t.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
He has been out schemed a bunch this season. The preparation from him and Judge as a whole has been disappointing.
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...to protect himself. He needs the Giants ownership to see him as a leader that's willing to do anything to win.
I also think Judge needs to start building a narrative internally that NO team could win with the so-called talent that Gettleman assembled.
I got that JJ needs to show he’s the guy but for him to take over the D makes no sense to me. How does that help us? If he was a DC before vs. an ST coach I’d get it but he wasn’t.
Only for optics. No other reason.
when you need to throw away your edge rushers and get more of them anyway it doesnt take much more time.
lets see this staff work with an actual OL and a defense with more than 1 LB and some actual edge rushers.
i'm even willing to give garrett a break.
sometimes too many rebuilds in a row is going to take a while to bounce back into contention.
what the cardinals are doing is unprecedented. you don't get to take advantage of a lame duck GM/Coach in O'brien all the time. moving on from Rosen after 1 year probably took a lot of convincing too. also they haven't made the playoffs yet. lets not get ahead of ourselves.
i'd rather get these guys to a point where we have a decent roster and then blow up the staff and let the new staff work with something. not a bare cupboard of mistakes like the shurmur/mcadoo eras
2016 was a mirage.
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A lot of football left to be played, and figure there will be considerable reluctance to change coaches again.
when you need to throw away your edge rushers and get more of them anyway it doesnt take much more time.
Yeah, but now you're talking about finding DEs, different types of LBs (think speed), and possibly a DC change.
It will happen sooner or later, am just saying it means more time starting over.
@Sammo, on target. As bad as the first six games have gone, I could see Mara deciding to use the injuries excuse and give the coaches another year. But, then when to approach the DG subject is a fly in the ointment.
For me, just more reasons to say it's time to burn it out down, including the execs you listed. Time's up.
I think they will allow DG to gracefully retire, he's a lifetime Giant and they won't want to embarrass him unless they absolutely have to. Allowing that is fine, unless they decide to promote a replacement from within. Then the misery continues.
were we really not that good? OCs around the league figured the scheme out?
Also, think Graham's is getting his lunch eaten and when that happens the players know it, which erodes confidence further along with injuries.
If Mara wasn't such a dove, he should step up with a presser and tell the fanbase everyone is on notice. Either get this fixed, or call your real estate agents.
were we really not that good? OCs around the league figured the scheme out?
Happens when your players aren't as good as you think they are. The big money players- Williams/Bradbury/Jackson/Ryan are fine players- not great ones. They can have a very good season here and there but aren't year-in year-out all pros.
Problem is, were paying for great and not even getting fine play out of them. Maybe Williams, but he sins worth $26mm this year for sure.
Also, think Graham's is getting his lunch eaten and when that happens the players know it, which erodes confidence further along with injuries.
Yep. It's a bit of a Cinderella dance with coordinators. Sometimes it's about timing and some luck/magic.
But when you get a protracted record of really bad decisions and results playing out, it's hard to recover from when you start to hit double-digit games. Unless Graham turns it around soon (unlikely based on opponents), he's in for a possible harsh reassessment from last year including potentially not having a coordinator job, forget about being a "HC candidate". Graham's problem is he's become victim of some success last year, and despite getting some better athletes in, the scheme has been destroyed at times, and some players don't seem to be able to get job done (including few that were excelling last year).
They don't call it the NFL - "Not For Long". It's not just players. When you evolve into a sports business, results matter and it's a hypersensitive environment at every level (physical infrastructure, entertainment, financial, personal).
We will hear John Mara tell us how nobody is more disappointed than he is.
We will hear how this WAS going to be our rebound season ....but the injuries.
We will hear how we are only 2-3 players away.
We will sign a free agent that gets everyone excited but in reality will not make much difference for a team that has more problems than a used Jeep
Yeah...where are the BBI folks telling all of us both Graham and Garrett would be head coaches by 2022? They both should unemployed.
That's a fair question. As I said, if the Giants elect to keep Judge, I think Graham is the fall guy.
I have a feeling all 3 amigos may be gone with a new GM.
There are no stunts or creative pass rush schemes. Sometimes in a game, he will actually run one, and it will work, and then he doesn't do it again. The DBs can help in the run game - at all. Even Peppers who could excel. No...better to have him covering the Rams best receiver. There are no adjustments or even changes week to week.
You can use the injury excuse for the office (which gets no pass either) but the defense is healthy enough. He needs to go. But he won't.
Better chance Garrett is made next HC by Mara
Boy was I wrong.
I don't think he goes anywhere - they asked him to stay and gave him a nice contract . . . though if we are 1-16, maybe they blow this whole thing up.
As for converting to a 4-3 defense, I have a thread concerning that topic. I say yes, but how? What has to change?
Should the Giants change to a 4-3? - ( New Window )
That in itself is a bad sign.
I'm surprised he isn't running more man press, given that's what Adoree Jackson was signed to do.
It's damned hard to run a pro defense with poor LBs, and journeymen NTs.
Jackson was somewhat a surprise release at the beginning of free agency by the Titans. And when he was, the Giants pushed all their chips in to not only bring him in but also to never let him leave with a signed deal. The bigger issue, at least to me, was why was he so coveted by Getts/FO? Especially since the Titans were just letting this 1st round pick walk without even negotiating with him.
However almost all of BBI applauded this deal, even with a relatively expensive contract. But it is looking like Jackson is not only a miss with dollars but also on player evaluation...yet again.
It's damned hard to run a pro defense with poor LBs, and journeymen NTs.
I've been wondering if Graham isn't using his players right, like putting Peppers on the elusive Cooper Kupp. Also with Ojulari, Ojulari is good at getting around the offensive lineman with bend and a rip move; neither has shown up on gameday. He's not a power guy.
That in itself is a bad sign.
I wasn't as enamored of Graham, given I had a lot of doubts about his ability to work up an effective pass rush (one of my first threads was saying that his concept of "pass rush by committee" was a bad sign). Didn't expect the secondary to just jump off a cliff so to speak, I thought this year would be more like what you see with New England defenses: a lot of PDs, sacks in the 35-range. It's insanity seeing the same thing happen every play and no bothering to change things up: personnel, angles, pass rush moves.
I definitely am surprised at how poorly the Defense has played. I thought graham had similar results with Miami: a good year followed by a bad year. [yeah, same with Spags, several times].
As far as the offense, the injuries are ridiculous and they get a pass. seems we will get back quite a few players within a couple of weeks, but the season will be lost by then. it will be grow for next year. ugh, always next year.
Jackson was somewhat a surprise release at the beginning of free agency by the Titans. And when he was, the Giants pushed all their chips in to not only bring him in but also to never let him leave with a signed deal. The bigger issue, at least to me, was why was he so coveted by Getts/FO? Especially since the Titans were just letting this 1st round pick walk without even negotiating with him.
However almost all of BBI applauded this deal, even with a relatively expensive contract. But it is looking like Jackson is not only a miss with dollars but also on player evaluation...yet again.
Jackson is not the real problem here. it is scheme..
They lose the games the should have won, and got blown out in the games they should have lost. It's not really knee-jerk at all.
But, there is a lot of football to be played, he'll get evaluated as well as the players