For Brees I used "pretty big contract". He had the injured shoulder and I thought he received a good contract but not in the tier of someone like Peyton and later Eli, Roeth, etc.
The supporting cast does matter, Jones' tenure in NY is still up in the air and nothing you say is a fact, it is completely conjecture from somebody obsessed with hating a player on the team he is supposed to root for!
Supporting casts do matter, but the real franchise QBs are able to execute without football utopia. See Lamar Jackson this year.
I really think Jones could be a fairly good QB. But the infrastructure needed on the offensive side of the ball to support that would require a big investment to create football utopia. Unfortunately, the limitations of the hard cap model make that virtually impossible.
RE: I looked at the SB winning teams the last 20 years
and it was very revealing that only 3 QB's have won one on a second or third contract. Both Mannings, Brady and BR. Brees was on a fairly big contract his first one.
All the others were on a rookie contract or not a highly paid veteran. Wilson, Rogers, Flacco, Wentz/Foles, Mahomes all on rookie contracts. Then you had Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Kurt Warner.
So is Jones in the Eli, Ben or Brady spectrum? Or Wilson, Rogers, Flacco, Wentz, Mahomes spectrum?
Jones has shown nothing that says he belongs with those names.
He’s 9-23 as a starter & he’s thrown only 4 TD’s this year. 4! After throwing only 11 last year.
Why are so many attached to Jones? I don’t get it. Shouldn’t our standards be higher?
Exactly. I don't get the attachment.
When Eli declined I could understand not wanting to move on from a club legend. But what makes Jones any different from any other flameout first rounder? If they traded him today I'd forget him in a week. Same with every other player on this roster - none of them have earned anything.
Until something better comes along. If the value isn’t there then add pass rushers, ol and front 7 so that we have the structure in place for the next rookie. Last pieces to add are wr, cb, te, s and lastly rb. We had it all backwards. I’m one that bought into saquon too. I should have known better after wheatly, Dayne and wilson. I hope the giants never draft a rb in the 1st for as long as I live
What he does well on a small sample size is tight window throws down the field.
*****Small sample sizes can be misleading****
Everyone can point to some beautiful throws DJ has made, and they wonder, if he just had a better OL he could do that all of time.
That is not necessarily true.
He MIGHT be able to do that more.
He is terrible at throwing TDs inside the 20. This is not a small sample size.
Subjectively, if Jones had a legit supporting cast he might be a better QB. Acting like that is a forgone conclusion is the mistake many of you are making.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
The eras weren't that different.
And Eli had a vastly superior team (offense and defense) and coaching staff around him. But his detractors will never admit to that.
Those who say the Eli comparisons are not legit also amusingly ignore the fact that Eli was a losing quarterback (well under .500) during the second half of his career because he had the same surrounding talent issues that Daniel Jones now has.
There's an enormous amount of facts and evidence that Jones isn't particularly good. It's been cited here many times: poor stats, low scoring, a terrible record as a starter. General poor performance.
The arguments in his favor stray away from facts and towards conjecture:
- placing blame on the supporting cast
- comparisons to other players in Giants' history
- scenarios where more successful players are swapped with Jones ("You think Lamar Jackson would be as successful if he were on the Giants instead of the Ravens?")
It has not worked out here with Daniel Jones. That is a fact. It is not an opinion.
You are a national treasure. It is amazing how someone that scours a Giants website all day desperate to post negative about the teams quarterback can have such a limited knowledge of how football works. The supporting cast does matter, Jones' tenure in NY is still up in the air and nothing you say is a fact, it is completely conjecture from somebody obsessed with hating a player on the team he is supposed to root for!
If you don't like Terps take on Jones, let's read what someone who does know how football works said
Quote:
Remember, year 3 is all about evaluating whether or not Jones will be the long-term answer at quarterback. Part of that includes whether or not he performs well through adversity. Part of that includes how much he can elevate those around him greater than the sum of its parts. He failed here. There are a couple things that can be pointed at, but we must keep things simple. Jones was overmatched mentally and physically. No question.
Scooter he is talking about one game and I could bore everybody and go get the Phil Simms or Dilfer quotes where they gush about him. This all gets us to the point that his tenure is still up in the air.
Until something better comes along. If the value isn’t there then add pass rushers, ol and front 7 so that we have the structure in place for the next rookie. Last pieces to add are wr, cb, te, s and lastly rb. We had it all backwards. I’m one that bought into saquon too. I should have known better after wheatly, Dayne and wilson. I hope the giants never draft a rb in the 1st for as long as I live
I am hoping they go this way and think they will. Don't force the QB. I think SB was to help Eli. I also would not be surprised if Mara #10 or Tisch #4 was fiercely fighting for that SB pick.
The supporting cast does matter, Jones' tenure in NY is still up in the air and nothing you say is a fact, it is completely conjecture from somebody obsessed with hating a player on the team he is supposed to root for!
Supporting casts do matter, but the real franchise QBs are able to execute without football utopia. See Lamar Jackson this year.
I really think Jones could be a fairly good QB. But the infrastructure needed on the offensive side of the ball to support that would require a big investment to create football utopia. Unfortunately, the limitations of the hard cap model make that virtually impossible.
BW, what if Jones could be a good to very good QB? Is that worth something? It is really hard to get those guys as well. He doesn't have to be Aaron Rodgers, but i would surely take good to very good QB play and move on to fixing the defense and the wholes on the OL.
The Giants also had a much easier schedule in Eli’s second year, if memory serves. I don’t think they’ve had as easy a schedule since Jones was drafted, and probably a little further back than that.
Used to be fun, but it has become stale and a cumbersome topic.
It is discussed obsessively by rival camps as if their ability to win the point will be the determining factor as to how the Giants handle the quarterback situation going further
I like him, I think he can be very good. However, I will not guarantee that he will be the answer going forward, which is quite different from the absolute certainty with which many have dismissed him.
What I know is this. It would absolutely be the best thing for the Giants if he turned out to be a great player, starting all over again with another young quarterback after a decade of losing is not something I will root for.
I will continue to hope for his and the team s success until they decide they must move on, at which time I will get behind the new guy.
The incessant criticism of Jones, the continued high jacking of threads to make these criticisms, has changed the tenor of this board and not in a good way.
Jones either will or will not prove to be the guy. There really is no need to take every bad play by Jones and every good play by another quarterback to drive home the point that you believe Jones stinks; believe me we know what you think.
The supporting cast does matter, Jones' tenure in NY is still up in the air and nothing you say is a fact, it is completely conjecture from somebody obsessed with hating a player on the team he is supposed to root for!
Supporting casts do matter, but the real franchise QBs are able to execute without football utopia. See Lamar Jackson this year.
I really think Jones could be a fairly good QB. But the infrastructure needed on the offensive side of the ball to support that would require a big investment to create football utopia. Unfortunately, the limitations of the hard cap model make that virtually impossible.
BW, what if Jones could be a good to very good QB? Is that worth something? It is really hard to get those guys as well. He doesn't have to be Aaron Rodgers, but i would surely take good to very good QB play and move on to fixing the defense and the wholes on the OL.
I just do not want to give him a second contract on maybe. He needs to prove it fast. He could do this in losing efforts. Throw touchdowns. Jones needs to prove it folks, and the people waiting for that are not out of line.
Used to be fun, but it has become stale and a cumbersome topic.
It is discussed obsessively by rival camps as if their ability to win the point will be the determining factor as to how the Giants handle the quarterback situation going further
I like him, I think he can be very good. However, I will not guarantee that he will be the answer going forward, which is quite different from the absolute certainty with which many have dismissed him.
What I know is this. It would absolutely be the best thing for the Giants if he turned out to be a great player, starting all over again with another young quarterback after a decade of losing is not something I will root for.
I will continue to hope for his and the team s success until they decide they must move on, at which time I will get behind the new guy.
The incessant criticism of Jones, the continued high jacking of threads to make these criticisms, has changed the tenor of this board and not in a good way.
Jones either will or will not prove to be the guy. There really is no need to take every bad play by Jones and every good play by another quarterback to drive home the point that you believe Jones stinks; believe me we know what you think.
Agree 100%. I have tried to stay off these redicilous and repetitive Jones threads
RE: RE: Eli was also significantly better in year 2
The Giants also had a much easier schedule in Eli’s second year, if memory serves. I don’t think they’ve had as easy a schedule since Jones was drafted, and probably a little further back than that.
Easy schedule? We played in possibly the worst division in NFL history last year. We got hammered at home by a 6-10 49er team with a backup QB. Got hammered at home by an 8-8 Cards team. The toughest team we played all year, Jones didn’t play. I’m not sure the schedule was hard other than any schedule would have been hard for that squad.
RE: RE: Eli was also significantly better in year 2
The Giants also had a much easier schedule in Eli’s second year, if memory serves. I don’t think they’ve had as easy a schedule since Jones was drafted, and probably a little further back than that.
The entire NFC was awful last year, it will never get easier for him.
Hard to admit to myself because it means we are farther away.
I still want to be the guy, but I am off his bandwaggon until he does something tangible on the field with consistency. That does not make me a hater. I have been a cheerleader for a large part of his career, at some point objective reality takes over.
Is worth a payday. Now if he agrees to a very friendly contact then you consider it. Very friendly being comparable to what we see veterans hanging around the league playing at 10 million.
Cousins gets 30 million. Would you give Jones 4 years at 30 mill/year? That’s a bargain and then you will have to let guys go.
Priority number 1 is not the QB for the Giants. It’s determining if this is the right HC and who is running the drafts and assembling the team imo. Until the drafting improves we are not close to competing for a championship regardless of QB.
I think it’s a long shot Jones stars elsewhere but I’ll certainly pull for him. Seems like a better candidate to pull a Brad Johnson or Trent Dilfer down the road.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
The eras weren't that different.
And Eli had a vastly superior team (offense and defense) and coaching staff around him. But his detractors will never admit to that.
Those who say the Eli comparisons are not legit also amusingly ignore the fact that Eli was a losing quarterback (well under .500) during the second half of his career because he had the same surrounding talent issues that Daniel Jones now has.
There's an enormous amount of facts and evidence that Jones isn't particularly good. It's been cited here many times: poor stats, low scoring, a terrible record as a starter. General poor performance.
The arguments in his favor stray away from facts and towards conjecture:
- placing blame on the supporting cast
- comparisons to other players in Giants' history
- scenarios where more successful players are swapped with Jones ("You think Lamar Jackson would be as successful if he were on the Giants instead of the Ravens?")
It has not worked out here with Daniel Jones. That is a fact. It is not an opinion.
You are a national treasure. It is amazing how someone that scours a Giants website all day desperate to post negative about the teams quarterback can have such a limited knowledge of how football works. The supporting cast does matter, Jones' tenure in NY is still up in the air and nothing you say is a fact, it is completely conjecture from somebody obsessed with hating a player on the team he is supposed to root for!
If you don't like Terps take on Jones, let's read what someone who does know how football works said
Quote:
Remember, year 3 is all about evaluating whether or not Jones will be the long-term answer at quarterback. Part of that includes whether or not he performs well through adversity. Part of that includes how much he can elevate those around him greater than the sum of its parts. He failed here. There are a couple things that can be pointed at, but we must keep things simple. Jones was overmatched mentally and physically. No question.
Scooter he is talking about one game and I could bore everybody and go get the Phil Simms or Dilfer quotes where they gush about him. This all gets us to the point that his tenure is still up in the air.
You're missing the point. Many just threw up their hands and said "well no one can hold it against Jones, every QB in history would have been bad that game" while Sy points out that the Rams game was a test and Jones failed in pretty much every aspect.
Based on what? He's overmatched mentally in this league, I don't care that he went to Duke, it's football IQ and he lacks it. He is fast, he is tall, he seems nice. End of story. He's not a quality NFL QB, 9-23 is all you need to know. Just watch him play, it's usually pretty bad results, we barely score with him playing. This is a wide open NFL and he's playing like it's the 70s. The sooner we move on the better.
Is that there’s a legitimate argument he can’t be fairly evaluated this year. There needs to be an answer on Jones up or down at the end of the year and that won’t happen.
Look at rushing yards per game, Eli’s first 3 seasons he had a top ten rushing game in the league. Jones has had a bottom 3rd rushing game. Defense, Jone’s rookie year dead last, last year was better, but this year bottom 5. Isn’t a single player that results in wins and losses. Coaching Eli had Tom Coughlin, Jones has Clueless Joe. Garrett is no Kilbride either. Neither Coughlin or Kilbride were known to be ultra conservative on Offense.
Used to be fun, but it has become stale and a cumbersome topic.
It is discussed obsessively by rival camps as if their ability to win the point will be the determining factor as to how the Giants handle the quarterback situation going further
I like him, I think he can be very good. However, I will not guarantee that he will be the answer going forward, which is quite different from the absolute certainty with which many have dismissed him.
What I know is this. It would absolutely be the best thing for the Giants if he turned out to be a great player, starting all over again with another young quarterback after a decade of losing is not something I will root for.
I will continue to hope for his and the team s success until they decide they must move on, at which time I will get behind the new guy.
The incessant criticism of Jones, the continued high jacking of threads to make these criticisms, has changed the tenor of this board and not in a good way.
Jones either will or will not prove to be the guy. There really is no need to take every bad play by Jones and every good play by another quarterback to drive home the point that you believe Jones stinks; believe me we know what you think.
Yea that is because you are an Eli basher. 3 years later from moving on from Eli -- we still don't know what we have at QB, and lost a shit ton of games in the process. And will continue to lose more in the forseseable future.
are basically arguing that Eli Manning, in his early 30s, and coming off of an MVP-caliber season, was washed up.
Sorry, not buying it.
What I am buying is that Eli's surrounding talent had gotten so abysmal that he was no longer a winning quarterback.
********
bw... the comparison is NOT about similar skill sets, but about how surrounding talent can impact QB development.
If Daniel Jones was drafted by the Baltimore Ravens, I would wager he would be a winning QB at this point.
Youre out of your head. If Jones was playing for the ravens he's have 2 broken legs by now. Lamar avoids contact; runs out of bounds ; slides. he also seems to "roll with the punches" when he is going to take a hit. He doesn't lower his head and try to ram through 2 linesbackers!
And turnover differences are a big reason the win loss records are so divergent. Jones despite being a far superior athlete lacks the same crispness to go through reads and get the ball out quickly.
Used to be fun, but it has become stale and a cumbersome topic.
It is discussed obsessively by rival camps as if their ability to win the point will be the determining factor as to how the Giants handle the quarterback situation going further
I like him, I think he can be very good. However, I will not guarantee that he will be the answer going forward, which is quite different from the absolute certainty with which many have dismissed him.
What I know is this. It would absolutely be the best thing for the Giants if he turned out to be a great player, starting all over again with another young quarterback after a decade of losing is not something I will root for.
I will continue to hope for his and the team s success until they decide they must move on, at which time I will get behind the new guy.
The incessant criticism of Jones, the continued high jacking of threads to make these criticisms, has changed the tenor of this board and not in a good way.
Jones either will or will not prove to be the guy. There really is no need to take every bad play by Jones and every good play by another quarterback to drive home the point that you believe Jones stinks; believe me we know what you think.
Yea that is because you are an Eli basher. 3 years later from moving on from Eli -- we still don't know what we have at QB, and lost a shit ton of games in the process. And will continue to lose more in the forseseable future.
Eli won a won two Super Bowls with the Giants. During those two play off runs he was magnificent and as clutch as the greatest to ever play the game. During their successful seasons he was always clutch.
The Giants also played a lot of losing football during that era and never won a playoff game for n 13 of the 15 seasons he played.
Those are facts. If you want to classify that as bashing, ok. But I loved rooting for Eli
To be honest I really don’t see how your belief I am an Eli basher relates to my post though
They're not the same, they never were similar prospects whatsoever and people need to stop doing it.
beyond just the raw stats and wins and losses, Jones is just making a lot more mistakes and not seeing the field as well. Eli’s ability to read process and get the ball out efficiently is superior. Jones is not the only problem for why we are 9-23 when he starts but hes not consistently a solution
Used to be fun, but it has become stale and a cumbersome topic.
It is discussed obsessively by rival camps as if their ability to win the point will be the determining factor as to how the Giants handle the quarterback situation going further
I like him, I think he can be very good. However, I will not guarantee that he will be the answer going forward, which is quite different from the absolute certainty with which many have dismissed him.
What I know is this. It would absolutely be the best thing for the Giants if he turned out to be a great player, starting all over again with another young quarterback after a decade of losing is not something I will root for.
I will continue to hope for his and the team s success until they decide they must move on, at which time I will get behind the new guy.
The incessant criticism of Jones, the continued high jacking of threads to make these criticisms, has changed the tenor of this board and not in a good way.
Jones either will or will not prove to be the guy. There really is no need to take every bad play by Jones and every good play by another quarterback to drive home the point that you believe Jones stinks; believe me we know what you think.
Yea that is because you are an Eli basher. 3 years later from moving on from Eli -- we still don't know what we have at QB, and lost a shit ton of games in the process. And will continue to lose more in the forseseable future.
Eli won a won two Super Bowls with the Giants. During those two play off runs he was magnificent and as clutch as the greatest to ever play the game. During their successful seasons he was always clutch.
The Giants also played a lot of losing football during that era and never won a playoff game for n 13 of the 15 seasons he played.
Those are facts. If you want to classify that as bashing, ok. But I loved rooting for Eli
To be honest I really don’t see how your belief I am an Eli basher relates to my post though
The point is people like you want to be vindicated from you "move on from Eli". "geno was just as good" "Eli is the problem". When it is obvious now that none of these things are true -- it is now I am sick of talking abou Jones". When I t should be "I was wrong about Eli".
And this whole thing about Eli's losing seasons. Eli was on worse teams than this. When have we seen anything like Toney here? And OBJ was never that good. Guy played like total shit last night and that was pretty mcuh how I remember Odell here. Lots of drops , not playing particularly well and overrated. When was the last time this place had a legit 1000 yard , 70 million guy like Golladay. When Eli was playing he had an overpriced Shep to throw to.
I think Jones is overmatched out there right now, and the supporting case isn't helping matters either. The problem is, as Terps and others have pointed out, the performances put forth by Jones look a lot like his Duke performances. I don't think he is the QB the brass believed he is, and that's what we're seeing on a weekly basis. You get a good one from time to time, but on the whole he's really ordinary at best.
I'm concerned the brass will use injuries to justify bringing back many of the same characters in 2022. That and the cap situation paint a bleak picture for the next 1-2 seasons. And, the ownership penchant for half measures on changes, well ... I've gotten used to losing.
This is not hard guys. Jones is a good/solid QB if he has solid protection/weapons. Note that I didn't say GREAT protection/weapons; just a reasonable level of both. But due to poor roster management and an unbelievable amount of teammate injuries of his career, the Giants continue to set him up for failure.
But there are plenty of quarterbacks who are solid with good protection and good weapons. When you pick a QB 6th overall, you are hoping and expecting more than that. He needs to elevate others play and help you win games.
I'm not out on Jones, but he is yet to prove that now in his 3rd year.
Had a much better OL. He had Barber in his prime, Jones has Barkley who's always hurt and maybe not as good even when healthy. Eli had Shockey, Jones has Engram. Eli probably had Burress for some of those games too. Not a fair comparison at all.
1. Eli had a better supporting cast than Jones
2. Jones is not as good as Eli was and hasn't shown enough to suggest he might be
3. Our standard for a high 1st round pick QB should be much higher than either Eli's or Jones' first 3 years in the league
What he does well on a small sample size is tight window throws down the field.
*****Small sample sizes can be misleading****
Everyone can point to some beautiful throws DJ has made, and they wonder, if he just had a better OL he could do that all of time.
That is not necessarily true.
He MIGHT be able to do that more.
He is terrible at throwing TDs inside the 20. This is not a small sample size.
Subjectively, if Jones had a legit supporting cast he might be a better QB. Acting like that is a forgone conclusion is the mistake many of you are making.
Do you see the flaw using the word “objective “ and immediately follow it up by stating an opinion as fact?
Used to be fun, but it has become stale and a cumbersome topic.
It is discussed obsessively by rival camps as if their ability to win the point will be the determining factor as to how the Giants handle the quarterback situation going further
I like him, I think he can be very good. However, I will not guarantee that he will be the answer going forward, which is quite different from the absolute certainty with which many have dismissed him.
What I know is this. It would absolutely be the best thing for the Giants if he turned out to be a great player, starting all over again with another young quarterback after a decade of losing is not something I will root for.
I will continue to hope for his and the team s success until they decide they must move on, at which time I will get behind the new guy.
The incessant criticism of Jones, the continued high jacking of threads to make these criticisms, has changed the tenor of this board and not in a good way.
Jones either will or will not prove to be the guy. There really is no need to take every bad play by Jones and every good play by another quarterback to drive home the point that you believe Jones stinks; believe me we know what you think.
Yea that is because you are an Eli basher. 3 years later from moving on from Eli -- we still don't know what we have at QB, and lost a shit ton of games in the process. And will continue to lose more in the forseseable future.
Eli won a won two Super Bowls with the Giants. During those two play off runs he was magnificent and as clutch as the greatest to ever play the game. During their successful seasons he was always clutch.
The Giants also played a lot of losing football during that era and never won a playoff game for n 13 of the 15 seasons he played.
Those are facts. If you want to classify that as bashing, ok. But I loved rooting for Eli
To be honest I really don’t see how your belief I am an Eli basher relates to my post though
The point is people like you want to be vindicated from you "move on from Eli". "geno was just as good" "Eli is the problem". When it is obvious now that none of these things are true -- it is now I am sick of talking abou Jones". When I t should be "I was wrong about Eli".
And this whole thing about Eli's losing seasons. Eli was on worse teams than this. When have we seen anything like Toney here? And OBJ was never that good. Guy played like total shit last night and that was pretty mcuh how I remember Odell here. Lots of drops , not playing particularly well and overrated. When was the last time this place had a legit 1000 yard , 70 million guy like Golladay. When Eli was playing he had an overpriced Shep to throw to.
I don’t want to be vindicated from my stance on moving on from Eli, I believe I was correct
But your take on the subject lends some credence to the idea that some of the Jones bashing could be because he replaced Eli, I get that.
and they were vastly different prospects. Eli was taken #1 overall for a reason. Jones was never even in the conversation.
People make this argument and then complain about us not taking Josh Allen, Josh Allen was not seen by many as a 1st overall prospect either.
Forget even the pre-draft perception. Eli Manning was vastly, vastly better in college. More skilled, more productive, more results at the highest levels of college ball. Was easy to predict would be a professional QB. Josh Allen was not. Jones was not.
But your take on the subject lends some credence to the idea that some of the Jones bashing could be because he replaced Eli, I get that.
Yup keep digging in there. maybe when another 3 years pass we'll know who is right. But by then who care ? Enough time has passed....
One thing we know for sure is that we have nothing special in Jones, or Judge. That we know. Otherwise we would have seen something by now. Instead this season is pretty much shaping up like last season.
I don’t want to be vindicated from my stance on moving on from Eli, I believe I was correct
But your take on the subject lends some credence to the idea that some of the Jones bashing could be because he replaced Eli, I get that.
How are you correct anyway? How are you OK with what you are seeing on the field ; 3 years and counting?
Teams like the Colts or even the Giants under better management -- they didn't just move on from QBs and pay them 20 million under contract and pick a QB for the sake a GM making his mark and putting his big, dumb bloated ego ahead of the team.
THey moved on when they had a draft heavy QB class. Or they moved on from Peyton when they had a shot at drafting a prospect like Andrew Luck.
I don’t want to be vindicated from my stance on moving on from Eli, I believe I was correct
But your take on the subject lends some credence to the idea that some of the Jones bashing could be because he replaced Eli, I get that.
How are you correct anyway? How are you OK with what you are seeing on the field ; 3 years and counting?
Teams like the Colts or even the Giants under better management -- they didn't just move on from QBs and pay them 20 million under contract and pick a QB for the sake a GM making his mark and putting his big, dumb bloated ego ahead of the team.
THey moved on when they had a draft heavy QB class. Or they moved on from Peyton when they had a shot at drafting a prospect like Andrew Luck.
It was obvious to me that the Giants were no longer going to win with Eli, time to move on. Maybe they picked the wrong guy because they waited a year too long to move on, thereby passing on Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen.
Guess I m being dense but I don’t see how the losing since El left is a vindication they should have kept Him, his last 3 seasons showed they could lose plenty with him
The year Jones was drafted. He was the only QB that I did not want. I wanted someone with more pedigree, that had played more games against top competition. Someone that won more. Daniel Jones was drafted based on subjective analysis that with better players he would have better results. Another way to say this is that excuses were made for his subpar performances. It was blamed on the talent around him.
He won me over in his first professional game. So much pressure, replacing Eli and he killed it. His rookie year left me with confidence that it would probably be his worst year and he would get better. The talent around him wasn't great, the OL was piss poor and there were plenty of injuries. If felt reasonable to believe that he would get better. The turnovers did nag at me. His pocket awareness was concerning considering the amount of college starts.
His second year was far far far worse than I could have believed possible. I made many excuses for him because believing Jones is not the answer sets the franchise back at least 2 years from competing. It was reasonable to say new, coach, bad OL, new OC blah blah blah. I thought he was going to have a great 2021. Why? They got him a legit downfield threat in Golloday and a shifty guy in Toney. Jones was very accurate on tight window throws down the field. It seemed like a perfect match. There was a tiny problem with banking on that. He didn't throw down the field much. I was placing my belief on a very small sample size. I should have known better, but I wanted to believe Jones was the answer.
I don't need to recount 2021, it should be fresh in everyone's mind. Better stats, still not enough points. OK, he makes some pretty throws, he looks legit. I recently dug into his red zone performances over 3 years, even his rookie year that I liked, it was awful. There is a decent sample size of his red zone performance. I included reference in an earlier post in this thread. It is consistently bad over 3 years, bottom of the league.
In his last six years starting in college and the NFL he still has the same issues. We continue to be subjective in our analysis of him. He deserves all of 2021, but if he doesn't make it undeniable that he has the goods, we should move on. There is enormous amount objective evidence on Jones, I think we should lean more on that than the subjective.
When I look back on my entire outlook on Jones I feel that I was correct in my initial assessment. I changed my mind after his first game because I desperately wanted to believe Jones was the answer because I was so tired of losing. Jones too often seems overwhelmed by the game. I don't think he will be more than an average QB.
I don’t want to be vindicated from my stance on moving on from Eli, I believe I was correct
But your take on the subject lends some credence to the idea that some of the Jones bashing could be because he replaced Eli, I get that.
How are you correct anyway? How are you OK with what you are seeing on the field ; 3 years and counting?
Teams like the Colts or even the Giants under better management -- they didn't just move on from QBs and pay them 20 million under contract and pick a QB for the sake a GM making his mark and putting his big, dumb bloated ego ahead of the team.
THey moved on when they had a draft heavy QB class. Or they moved on from Peyton when they had a shot at drafting a prospect like Andrew Luck.
It was obvious to me that the Giants were no longer going to win with Eli, time to move on. Maybe they picked the wrong guy because they waited a year too long to move on, thereby passing on Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen.
Guess I m being dense but I don’t see how the losing since El left is a vindication they should have kept Him, his last 3 seasons showed they could lose plenty with him
They didn’t “pass” on anybody on account of Eli. There is 0 evidence to suggest they drafted Barkley to “help” Eli. What have you seen from Gettleman to suggest that he wasn’t just drafting the best player in his mind anyway at the given draft slot? Also there was a way to move on from Eli and there wasn’t.
Cutting Eli in off season yes especially after drafting a josh Allen. Or keep him till week 10 if the season is hopeless bench him and put in allen. And what is the point of moving on from Eli for Daniel jones? You might as well have drafted quinton Nelson and free agent sign w Eli in win now mode
Jones had more total offensive yards, but Trubisky had fewer turnovers - their respective win-loss records would seem to be a natural result of that difference.
I'm not going to sit here and say DJ is absolutely terrible
He isn't. He has good and bad qualities and he is worthy of being a starter in the NFL and getting this chance he's getting. That said-- the thing I look at is him vs. his contemporaries. What "could've been." The Giants had the #2, #6 & #17, #4, and #11 picks in 2018-2021 under DG's tenure. DG chose to draft a QB in what has proven to be the weakest QB class out of all 4 of those years (aside from Kyler but he went #1), and not only that-- everyone knew he reached for Jones at #6. Hence-- the result we have seen is a guy who is decent, not great, which is exactly what you expect from a guy you reached for at #6 in a weak QB class. It seemed very obvious that DG drafted a QB because the time was right, not the player, which I don't think you should ever do. He felt obligated to take a QB at that point and hence it felt like he forced the pick. But you look at the QBs he's passed on the last 4 years and that's the measure that I'm going by to say: DG + DJ so far looks like a failed experiment RELATIVELY-speaking.
Not saying it's over though. The clock is ticking for him to improve and start winning games. Yeah he doesn't have a great team around him, but let's not act like he's playing flawless football and then the team is collapsing around him. He's done some God-awful things at times that have cost us ball games. Also, he's incredibly suspect in the red zone which is the part of the field where you win games. In part it's clearly because he's slow to process information and everything becomes more condensed and quicker in the red zone. If you can't score in the red zone you won't win games, and so far in DJ's career he's been a massive disappointment in the red zone.
The supporting cast does matter, Jones' tenure in NY is still up in the air and nothing you say is a fact, it is completely conjecture from somebody obsessed with hating a player on the team he is supposed to root for!
Supporting casts do matter, but the real franchise QBs are able to execute without football utopia. See Lamar Jackson this year.
I really think Jones could be a fairly good QB. But the infrastructure needed on the offensive side of the ball to support that would require a big investment to create football utopia. Unfortunately, the limitations of the hard cap model make that virtually impossible.
All the others were on a rookie contract or not a highly paid veteran. Wilson, Rogers, Flacco, Wentz/Foles, Mahomes all on rookie contracts. Then you had Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Kurt Warner.
So is Jones in the Eli, Ben or Brady spectrum? Or Wilson, Rogers, Flacco, Wentz, Mahomes spectrum?
Why are so many attached to Jones? I don’t get it. Shouldn’t our standards be higher?
Exactly. I don't get the attachment.
When Eli declined I could understand not wanting to move on from a club legend. But what makes Jones any different from any other flameout first rounder? If they traded him today I'd forget him in a week. Same with every other player on this roster - none of them have earned anything.
The Giants ruined the beginning of DJ's career much like the end of ELi's.
The only way forward is to start over "for real" this time.
Jones sucks.
That is a fact.
I have done a lot defending Jones.
What he does well on a small sample size is tight window throws down the field.
*****Small sample sizes can be misleading****
Everyone can point to some beautiful throws DJ has made, and they wonder, if he just had a better OL he could do that all of time.
That is not necessarily true.
He MIGHT be able to do that more.
He is terrible at throwing TDs inside the 20. This is not a small sample size.
Subjectively, if Jones had a legit supporting cast he might be a better QB. Acting like that is a forgone conclusion is the mistake many of you are making.
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In comment 15424170 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15423920 Eric from BBI said:
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there are pros and cons to Daniel Jones.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
The eras weren't that different.
And Eli had a vastly superior team (offense and defense) and coaching staff around him. But his detractors will never admit to that.
Those who say the Eli comparisons are not legit also amusingly ignore the fact that Eli was a losing quarterback (well under .500) during the second half of his career because he had the same surrounding talent issues that Daniel Jones now has.
There's an enormous amount of facts and evidence that Jones isn't particularly good. It's been cited here many times: poor stats, low scoring, a terrible record as a starter. General poor performance.
The arguments in his favor stray away from facts and towards conjecture:
- placing blame on the supporting cast
- comparisons to other players in Giants' history
- scenarios where more successful players are swapped with Jones ("You think Lamar Jackson would be as successful if he were on the Giants instead of the Ravens?")
It has not worked out here with Daniel Jones. That is a fact. It is not an opinion.
You are a national treasure. It is amazing how someone that scours a Giants website all day desperate to post negative about the teams quarterback can have such a limited knowledge of how football works. The supporting cast does matter, Jones' tenure in NY is still up in the air and nothing you say is a fact, it is completely conjecture from somebody obsessed with hating a player on the team he is supposed to root for!
If you don't like Terps take on Jones, let's read what someone who does know how football works said
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Remember, year 3 is all about evaluating whether or not Jones will be the long-term answer at quarterback. Part of that includes whether or not he performs well through adversity. Part of that includes how much he can elevate those around him greater than the sum of its parts. He failed here. There are a couple things that can be pointed at, but we must keep things simple. Jones was overmatched mentally and physically. No question.
Scooter he is talking about one game and I could bore everybody and go get the Phil Simms or Dilfer quotes where they gush about him. This all gets us to the point that his tenure is still up in the air.
I am hoping they go this way and think they will. Don't force the QB. I think SB was to help Eli. I also would not be surprised if Mara #10 or Tisch #4 was fiercely fighting for that SB pick.
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The supporting cast does matter, Jones' tenure in NY is still up in the air and nothing you say is a fact, it is completely conjecture from somebody obsessed with hating a player on the team he is supposed to root for!
Supporting casts do matter, but the real franchise QBs are able to execute without football utopia. See Lamar Jackson this year.
I really think Jones could be a fairly good QB. But the infrastructure needed on the offensive side of the ball to support that would require a big investment to create football utopia. Unfortunately, the limitations of the hard cap model make that virtually impossible.
BW, what if Jones could be a good to very good QB? Is that worth something? It is really hard to get those guys as well. He doesn't have to be Aaron Rodgers, but i would surely take good to very good QB play and move on to fixing the defense and the wholes on the OL.
The Giants also had a much easier schedule in Eli’s second year, if memory serves. I don’t think they’ve had as easy a schedule since Jones was drafted, and probably a little further back than that.
It is discussed obsessively by rival camps as if their ability to win the point will be the determining factor as to how the Giants handle the quarterback situation going further
I like him, I think he can be very good. However, I will not guarantee that he will be the answer going forward, which is quite different from the absolute certainty with which many have dismissed him.
What I know is this. It would absolutely be the best thing for the Giants if he turned out to be a great player, starting all over again with another young quarterback after a decade of losing is not something I will root for.
I will continue to hope for his and the team s success until they decide they must move on, at which time I will get behind the new guy.
The incessant criticism of Jones, the continued high jacking of threads to make these criticisms, has changed the tenor of this board and not in a good way.
Jones either will or will not prove to be the guy. There really is no need to take every bad play by Jones and every good play by another quarterback to drive home the point that you believe Jones stinks; believe me we know what you think.
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In comment 15424189 Walker Gillette said:
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The supporting cast does matter, Jones' tenure in NY is still up in the air and nothing you say is a fact, it is completely conjecture from somebody obsessed with hating a player on the team he is supposed to root for!
Supporting casts do matter, but the real franchise QBs are able to execute without football utopia. See Lamar Jackson this year.
I really think Jones could be a fairly good QB. But the infrastructure needed on the offensive side of the ball to support that would require a big investment to create football utopia. Unfortunately, the limitations of the hard cap model make that virtually impossible.
BW, what if Jones could be a good to very good QB? Is that worth something? It is really hard to get those guys as well. He doesn't have to be Aaron Rodgers, but i would surely take good to very good QB play and move on to fixing the defense and the wholes on the OL.
It is discussed obsessively by rival camps as if their ability to win the point will be the determining factor as to how the Giants handle the quarterback situation going further
I like him, I think he can be very good. However, I will not guarantee that he will be the answer going forward, which is quite different from the absolute certainty with which many have dismissed him.
What I know is this. It would absolutely be the best thing for the Giants if he turned out to be a great player, starting all over again with another young quarterback after a decade of losing is not something I will root for.
I will continue to hope for his and the team s success until they decide they must move on, at which time I will get behind the new guy.
The incessant criticism of Jones, the continued high jacking of threads to make these criticisms, has changed the tenor of this board and not in a good way.
Jones either will or will not prove to be the guy. There really is no need to take every bad play by Jones and every good play by another quarterback to drive home the point that you believe Jones stinks; believe me we know what you think.
Agree 100%. I have tried to stay off these redicilous and repetitive Jones threads
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than he was his rookie year. Progression matters.
The Giants also had a much easier schedule in Eli’s second year, if memory serves. I don’t think they’ve had as easy a schedule since Jones was drafted, and probably a little further back than that.
Easy schedule? We played in possibly the worst division in NFL history last year. We got hammered at home by a 6-10 49er team with a backup QB. Got hammered at home by an 8-8 Cards team. The toughest team we played all year, Jones didn’t play. I’m not sure the schedule was hard other than any schedule would have been hard for that squad.
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than he was his rookie year. Progression matters.
The Giants also had a much easier schedule in Eli’s second year, if memory serves. I don’t think they’ve had as easy a schedule since Jones was drafted, and probably a little further back than that.
I will not engage in debate over this because I can read the statistics.
Subjectively, you can say the starting cast around him has been poor.
He has reached the red zone plenty with that poor cast over 3 years.
The results in the red zone are poor.
This is where the game gets tough.
Everything is faster, he has to be decisive, more accurate and sudden.
Once in the red zone, regardless of the roster, with a perfect pass, a QB could elevate his entire team.
Jones does not elevate those around him.
We also have his college film.
He still has the same deficiencies.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/redzone-passing.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2020/redzone-passing.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/redzone-passing.htm
He is consistent.
I still want to be the guy, but I am off his bandwaggon until he does something tangible on the field with consistency. That does not make me a hater. I have been a cheerleader for a large part of his career, at some point objective reality takes over.
Cousins gets 30 million. Would you give Jones 4 years at 30 mill/year? That’s a bargain and then you will have to let guys go.
Priority number 1 is not the QB for the Giants. It’s determining if this is the right HC and who is running the drafts and assembling the team imo. Until the drafting improves we are not close to competing for a championship regardless of QB.
I think it’s a long shot Jones stars elsewhere but I’ll certainly pull for him. Seems like a better candidate to pull a Brad Johnson or Trent Dilfer down the road.
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In comment 15424189 Walker Gillette said:
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In comment 15424170 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15423920 Eric from BBI said:
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there are pros and cons to Daniel Jones.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
The eras weren't that different.
And Eli had a vastly superior team (offense and defense) and coaching staff around him. But his detractors will never admit to that.
Those who say the Eli comparisons are not legit also amusingly ignore the fact that Eli was a losing quarterback (well under .500) during the second half of his career because he had the same surrounding talent issues that Daniel Jones now has.
There's an enormous amount of facts and evidence that Jones isn't particularly good. It's been cited here many times: poor stats, low scoring, a terrible record as a starter. General poor performance.
The arguments in his favor stray away from facts and towards conjecture:
- placing blame on the supporting cast
- comparisons to other players in Giants' history
- scenarios where more successful players are swapped with Jones ("You think Lamar Jackson would be as successful if he were on the Giants instead of the Ravens?")
It has not worked out here with Daniel Jones. That is a fact. It is not an opinion.
You are a national treasure. It is amazing how someone that scours a Giants website all day desperate to post negative about the teams quarterback can have such a limited knowledge of how football works. The supporting cast does matter, Jones' tenure in NY is still up in the air and nothing you say is a fact, it is completely conjecture from somebody obsessed with hating a player on the team he is supposed to root for!
If you don't like Terps take on Jones, let's read what someone who does know how football works said
Quote:
Remember, year 3 is all about evaluating whether or not Jones will be the long-term answer at quarterback. Part of that includes whether or not he performs well through adversity. Part of that includes how much he can elevate those around him greater than the sum of its parts. He failed here. There are a couple things that can be pointed at, but we must keep things simple. Jones was overmatched mentally and physically. No question.
Scooter he is talking about one game and I could bore everybody and go get the Phil Simms or Dilfer quotes where they gush about him. This all gets us to the point that his tenure is still up in the air.
You're missing the point. Many just threw up their hands and said "well no one can hold it against Jones, every QB in history would have been bad that game" while Sy points out that the Rams game was a test and Jones failed in pretty much every aspect.
Overall there's been more games like LAR than NO
So what's the point?
I think we can nail it pretty simply that TDs are an important part of wins. Jones has very few of either.
It is discussed obsessively by rival camps as if their ability to win the point will be the determining factor as to how the Giants handle the quarterback situation going further
I like him, I think he can be very good. However, I will not guarantee that he will be the answer going forward, which is quite different from the absolute certainty with which many have dismissed him.
What I know is this. It would absolutely be the best thing for the Giants if he turned out to be a great player, starting all over again with another young quarterback after a decade of losing is not something I will root for.
I will continue to hope for his and the team s success until they decide they must move on, at which time I will get behind the new guy.
The incessant criticism of Jones, the continued high jacking of threads to make these criticisms, has changed the tenor of this board and not in a good way.
Jones either will or will not prove to be the guy. There really is no need to take every bad play by Jones and every good play by another quarterback to drive home the point that you believe Jones stinks; believe me we know what you think.
Yea that is because you are an Eli basher. 3 years later from moving on from Eli -- we still don't know what we have at QB, and lost a shit ton of games in the process. And will continue to lose more in the forseseable future.
Sorry, not buying it.
What I am buying is that Eli's surrounding talent had gotten so abysmal that he was no longer a winning quarterback.
********
bw... the comparison is NOT about similar skill sets, but about how surrounding talent can impact QB development.
If Daniel Jones was drafted by the Baltimore Ravens, I would wager he would be a winning QB at this point.
Youre out of your head. If Jones was playing for the ravens he's have 2 broken legs by now. Lamar avoids contact; runs out of bounds ; slides. he also seems to "roll with the punches" when he is going to take a hit. He doesn't lower his head and try to ram through 2 linesbackers!
They're not the same, they never were similar prospects whatsoever and people need to stop doing it.
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Used to be fun, but it has become stale and a cumbersome topic.
It is discussed obsessively by rival camps as if their ability to win the point will be the determining factor as to how the Giants handle the quarterback situation going further
I like him, I think he can be very good. However, I will not guarantee that he will be the answer going forward, which is quite different from the absolute certainty with which many have dismissed him.
What I know is this. It would absolutely be the best thing for the Giants if he turned out to be a great player, starting all over again with another young quarterback after a decade of losing is not something I will root for.
I will continue to hope for his and the team s success until they decide they must move on, at which time I will get behind the new guy.
The incessant criticism of Jones, the continued high jacking of threads to make these criticisms, has changed the tenor of this board and not in a good way.
Jones either will or will not prove to be the guy. There really is no need to take every bad play by Jones and every good play by another quarterback to drive home the point that you believe Jones stinks; believe me we know what you think.
Yea that is because you are an Eli basher. 3 years later from moving on from Eli -- we still don't know what we have at QB, and lost a shit ton of games in the process. And will continue to lose more in the forseseable future.
Eli won a won two Super Bowls with the Giants. During those two play off runs he was magnificent and as clutch as the greatest to ever play the game. During their successful seasons he was always clutch.
The Giants also played a lot of losing football during that era and never won a playoff game for n 13 of the 15 seasons he played.
Those are facts. If you want to classify that as bashing, ok. But I loved rooting for Eli
To be honest I really don’t see how your belief I am an Eli basher relates to my post though
They're not the same, they never were similar prospects whatsoever and people need to stop doing it.
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In comment 15424262 joeinpa said:
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Used to be fun, but it has become stale and a cumbersome topic.
It is discussed obsessively by rival camps as if their ability to win the point will be the determining factor as to how the Giants handle the quarterback situation going further
I like him, I think he can be very good. However, I will not guarantee that he will be the answer going forward, which is quite different from the absolute certainty with which many have dismissed him.
What I know is this. It would absolutely be the best thing for the Giants if he turned out to be a great player, starting all over again with another young quarterback after a decade of losing is not something I will root for.
I will continue to hope for his and the team s success until they decide they must move on, at which time I will get behind the new guy.
The incessant criticism of Jones, the continued high jacking of threads to make these criticisms, has changed the tenor of this board and not in a good way.
Jones either will or will not prove to be the guy. There really is no need to take every bad play by Jones and every good play by another quarterback to drive home the point that you believe Jones stinks; believe me we know what you think.
Yea that is because you are an Eli basher. 3 years later from moving on from Eli -- we still don't know what we have at QB, and lost a shit ton of games in the process. And will continue to lose more in the forseseable future.
Eli won a won two Super Bowls with the Giants. During those two play off runs he was magnificent and as clutch as the greatest to ever play the game. During their successful seasons he was always clutch.
The Giants also played a lot of losing football during that era and never won a playoff game for n 13 of the 15 seasons he played.
Those are facts. If you want to classify that as bashing, ok. But I loved rooting for Eli
To be honest I really don’t see how your belief I am an Eli basher relates to my post though
The point is people like you want to be vindicated from you "move on from Eli". "geno was just as good" "Eli is the problem". When it is obvious now that none of these things are true -- it is now I am sick of talking abou Jones". When I t should be "I was wrong about Eli".
And this whole thing about Eli's losing seasons. Eli was on worse teams than this. When have we seen anything like Toney here? And OBJ was never that good. Guy played like total shit last night and that was pretty mcuh how I remember Odell here. Lots of drops , not playing particularly well and overrated. When was the last time this place had a legit 1000 yard , 70 million guy like Golladay. When Eli was playing he had an overpriced Shep to throw to.
I'm concerned the brass will use injuries to justify bringing back many of the same characters in 2022. That and the cap situation paint a bleak picture for the next 1-2 seasons. And, the ownership penchant for half measures on changes, well ... I've gotten used to losing.
In 2004, when Eli first took over. Take a look at these stats:
Completion Percentages:
2004 - 59.8%
2020 - 65.25%
TD/INT ratio:
2004: 732 TDs and 524 INTs - 1.4
2020: 871 TDs and 395 INTs - 2.2
Those are huge difference when it comes to QB play.
But there are plenty of quarterbacks who are solid with good protection and good weapons. When you pick a QB 6th overall, you are hoping and expecting more than that. He needs to elevate others play and help you win games.
I'm not out on Jones, but he is yet to prove that now in his 3rd year.
2. Jones is not as good as Eli was and hasn't shown enough to suggest he might be
3. Our standard for a high 1st round pick QB should be much higher than either Eli's or Jones' first 3 years in the league
All of these things are true!
Jones sucks.
That is a fact.
I have done a lot defending Jones.
What he does well on a small sample size is tight window throws down the field.
*****Small sample sizes can be misleading****
Everyone can point to some beautiful throws DJ has made, and they wonder, if he just had a better OL he could do that all of time.
That is not necessarily true.
He MIGHT be able to do that more.
He is terrible at throwing TDs inside the 20. This is not a small sample size.
Subjectively, if Jones had a legit supporting cast he might be a better QB. Acting like that is a forgone conclusion is the mistake many of you are making.
Do you see the flaw using the word “objective “ and immediately follow it up by stating an opinion as fact?
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In comment 15424604 Debaser said:
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In comment 15424262 joeinpa said:
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Used to be fun, but it has become stale and a cumbersome topic.
It is discussed obsessively by rival camps as if their ability to win the point will be the determining factor as to how the Giants handle the quarterback situation going further
I like him, I think he can be very good. However, I will not guarantee that he will be the answer going forward, which is quite different from the absolute certainty with which many have dismissed him.
What I know is this. It would absolutely be the best thing for the Giants if he turned out to be a great player, starting all over again with another young quarterback after a decade of losing is not something I will root for.
I will continue to hope for his and the team s success until they decide they must move on, at which time I will get behind the new guy.
The incessant criticism of Jones, the continued high jacking of threads to make these criticisms, has changed the tenor of this board and not in a good way.
Jones either will or will not prove to be the guy. There really is no need to take every bad play by Jones and every good play by another quarterback to drive home the point that you believe Jones stinks; believe me we know what you think.
Yea that is because you are an Eli basher. 3 years later from moving on from Eli -- we still don't know what we have at QB, and lost a shit ton of games in the process. And will continue to lose more in the forseseable future.
Eli won a won two Super Bowls with the Giants. During those two play off runs he was magnificent and as clutch as the greatest to ever play the game. During their successful seasons he was always clutch.
The Giants also played a lot of losing football during that era and never won a playoff game for n 13 of the 15 seasons he played.
Those are facts. If you want to classify that as bashing, ok. But I loved rooting for Eli
To be honest I really don’t see how your belief I am an Eli basher relates to my post though
The point is people like you want to be vindicated from you "move on from Eli". "geno was just as good" "Eli is the problem". When it is obvious now that none of these things are true -- it is now I am sick of talking abou Jones". When I t should be "I was wrong about Eli".
And this whole thing about Eli's losing seasons. Eli was on worse teams than this. When have we seen anything like Toney here? And OBJ was never that good. Guy played like total shit last night and that was pretty mcuh how I remember Odell here. Lots of drops , not playing particularly well and overrated. When was the last time this place had a legit 1000 yard , 70 million guy like Golladay. When Eli was playing he had an overpriced Shep to throw to.
I don’t want to be vindicated from my stance on moving on from Eli, I believe I was correct
But your take on the subject lends some credence to the idea that some of the Jones bashing could be because he replaced Eli, I get that.
People make this argument and then complain about us not taking Josh Allen, Josh Allen was not seen by many as a 1st overall prospect either.
2006: 14th in yards, 11th in points.
2019: 23rd in yards, 19th in points.
2020: 31st in both
2005 and 2006 Eli was tied for fourth in TDs thrown. The production difference is huge.
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and they were vastly different prospects. Eli was taken #1 overall for a reason. Jones was never even in the conversation.
People make this argument and then complain about us not taking Josh Allen, Josh Allen was not seen by many as a 1st overall prospect either.
Forget even the pre-draft perception. Eli Manning was vastly, vastly better in college. More skilled, more productive, more results at the highest levels of college ball. Was easy to predict would be a professional QB. Josh Allen was not. Jones was not.
But your take on the subject lends some credence to the idea that some of the Jones bashing could be because he replaced Eli, I get that.
Yup keep digging in there. maybe when another 3 years pass we'll know who is right. But by then who care ? Enough time has passed....
One thing we know for sure is that we have nothing special in Jones, or Judge. That we know. Otherwise we would have seen something by now. Instead this season is pretty much shaping up like last season.
I don’t want to be vindicated from my stance on moving on from Eli, I believe I was correct
But your take on the subject lends some credence to the idea that some of the Jones bashing could be because he replaced Eli, I get that.
How are you correct anyway? How are you OK with what you are seeing on the field ; 3 years and counting?
Teams like the Colts or even the Giants under better management -- they didn't just move on from QBs and pay them 20 million under contract and pick a QB for the sake a GM making his mark and putting his big, dumb bloated ego ahead of the team.
THey moved on when they had a draft heavy QB class. Or they moved on from Peyton when they had a shot at drafting a prospect like Andrew Luck.
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I don’t want to be vindicated from my stance on moving on from Eli, I believe I was correct
But your take on the subject lends some credence to the idea that some of the Jones bashing could be because he replaced Eli, I get that.
How are you correct anyway? How are you OK with what you are seeing on the field ; 3 years and counting?
Teams like the Colts or even the Giants under better management -- they didn't just move on from QBs and pay them 20 million under contract and pick a QB for the sake a GM making his mark and putting his big, dumb bloated ego ahead of the team.
THey moved on when they had a draft heavy QB class. Or they moved on from Peyton when they had a shot at drafting a prospect like Andrew Luck.
It was obvious to me that the Giants were no longer going to win with Eli, time to move on. Maybe they picked the wrong guy because they waited a year too long to move on, thereby passing on Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen.
Guess I m being dense but I don’t see how the losing since El left is a vindication they should have kept Him, his last 3 seasons showed they could lose plenty with him
He won me over in his first professional game. So much pressure, replacing Eli and he killed it. His rookie year left me with confidence that it would probably be his worst year and he would get better. The talent around him wasn't great, the OL was piss poor and there were plenty of injuries. If felt reasonable to believe that he would get better. The turnovers did nag at me. His pocket awareness was concerning considering the amount of college starts.
His second year was far far far worse than I could have believed possible. I made many excuses for him because believing Jones is not the answer sets the franchise back at least 2 years from competing. It was reasonable to say new, coach, bad OL, new OC blah blah blah. I thought he was going to have a great 2021. Why? They got him a legit downfield threat in Golloday and a shifty guy in Toney. Jones was very accurate on tight window throws down the field. It seemed like a perfect match. There was a tiny problem with banking on that. He didn't throw down the field much. I was placing my belief on a very small sample size. I should have known better, but I wanted to believe Jones was the answer.
I don't need to recount 2021, it should be fresh in everyone's mind. Better stats, still not enough points. OK, he makes some pretty throws, he looks legit. I recently dug into his red zone performances over 3 years, even his rookie year that I liked, it was awful. There is a decent sample size of his red zone performance. I included reference in an earlier post in this thread. It is consistently bad over 3 years, bottom of the league.
In his last six years starting in college and the NFL he still has the same issues. We continue to be subjective in our analysis of him. He deserves all of 2021, but if he doesn't make it undeniable that he has the goods, we should move on. There is enormous amount objective evidence on Jones, I think we should lean more on that than the subjective.
When I look back on my entire outlook on Jones I feel that I was correct in my initial assessment. I changed my mind after his first game because I desperately wanted to believe Jones was the answer because I was so tired of losing. Jones too often seems overwhelmed by the game. I don't think he will be more than an average QB.
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I don’t want to be vindicated from my stance on moving on from Eli, I believe I was correct
But your take on the subject lends some credence to the idea that some of the Jones bashing could be because he replaced Eli, I get that.
How are you correct anyway? How are you OK with what you are seeing on the field ; 3 years and counting?
Teams like the Colts or even the Giants under better management -- they didn't just move on from QBs and pay them 20 million under contract and pick a QB for the sake a GM making his mark and putting his big, dumb bloated ego ahead of the team.
THey moved on when they had a draft heavy QB class. Or they moved on from Peyton when they had a shot at drafting a prospect like Andrew Luck.
It was obvious to me that the Giants were no longer going to win with Eli, time to move on. Maybe they picked the wrong guy because they waited a year too long to move on, thereby passing on Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen.
Guess I m being dense but I don’t see how the losing since El left is a vindication they should have kept Him, his last 3 seasons showed they could lose plenty with him
They didn’t “pass” on anybody on account of Eli. There is 0 evidence to suggest they drafted Barkley to “help” Eli. What have you seen from Gettleman to suggest that he wasn’t just drafting the best player in his mind anyway at the given draft slot? Also there was a way to move on from Eli and there wasn’t.
Cutting Eli in off season yes especially after drafting a josh Allen. Or keep him till week 10 if the season is hopeless bench him and put in allen. And what is the point of moving on from Eli for Daniel jones? You might as well have drafted quinton Nelson and free agent sign w Eli in win now mode
Jones and Trubisky are actually fairly comparable:
Daniel Jones
7,494 yards
903 rushing 5 TD
39 TD / 26 INT
35 fumbles / 19 Lost
W/L (9-23)
95 sacks
Mitch Trubisky
6,624 yards
715 rushing 5 TD
36 TD / 22 INT
17 fumbles / 7 Lost
W/L (17-15)
72 sacks
Jones had more total offensive yards, but Trubisky had fewer turnovers - their respective win-loss records would seem to be a natural result of that difference.
Not saying it's over though. The clock is ticking for him to improve and start winning games. Yeah he doesn't have a great team around him, but let's not act like he's playing flawless football and then the team is collapsing around him. He's done some God-awful things at times that have cost us ball games. Also, he's incredibly suspect in the red zone which is the part of the field where you win games. In part it's clearly because he's slow to process information and everything becomes more condensed and quicker in the red zone. If you can't score in the red zone you won't win games, and so far in DJ's career he's been a massive disappointment in the red zone.