Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
The eras weren't that different.
And Eli had a vastly superior team (offense and defense) and coaching staff around him. But his detractors will never admit to that.
Those who say the Eli comparisons are not legit also amusingly ignore the fact that Eli was a losing quarterback (well under .500) during the second half of his career because he had the same surrounding talent issues that Daniel Jones now has.
Eli also had a lot of elements making it easier for him to perform -- better WRs, better RBs, and better RBs -- by a long stretch. He also had the same coach and system for the first three years. So while DJ benefits from playing in a league that makes it easier to pass, let's not act like almost every other variable weighs heavily in favor of Eli being able to succeed.
The changed in rules on the defensive side had not happened yet as well as the protections of QB's in the pocket.
The NFC East had two HOF coaches with a most likely third (AR with a Jim Johnson defense) in it and the NFC East was a much better division then.
I think Eli showed enough outstanding moments to just hope he would eventually eliminate some truly frustrating game(s). As we learned he would always maintain some low moments but...you learned to deal with it.
Eli also took every snap injured or not.
Do you ever say to yourself, "Boy, I can see Jones winning multiple big games in a row?" which is what it will take if you want a 5th trophy.
Finding quarterbacks that were better than Eli was statistically in his early career is not all that hard. It's a near worthless predictor of future success.
on thanksgiving weekend in 2007 when he threw three or four picks (the year we won the super bowl) where people were still calling Eli a "Giant Mistake." That was Year 4/ And, a few weeks later, after a miserable game against Washington in terrible conditions, the same people were still coming after Eli. It is not fun to be a NY QB.
You might want to revisit Eli's win-loss record in his last few years here.
Again, I'm not saying Daniel Jones is the answer or not, but half of the Giants fan base was still demanding the Giants dump Eli in 2007, four years into his career.
I was off the Eli bandwagon after the Vikings game in his 4th season in '07. Eli also led the league in INTs in 2007.
Somehow the lightbulb flashed and he ascended to another level during the playoff run that year and the years after.
I get it, it's an easy comparison to make. But I just don't think it's very helpful to compare any young QB to Eli because he had a very unique trajectory and overall career. You can't count on Jones or a struggling young QB to have that kind of trajectory.
The changed in rules on the defensive side had not happened yet as well as the protections of QB's in the pocket.
The NFC East had two HOF coaches with a most likely third (AR with a Jim Johnson defense) in it and the NFC East was a much better division then.
I think Eli showed enough outstanding moments to just hope he would eventually eliminate some truly frustrating game(s). As we learned he would always maintain some low moments but...you learned to deal with it.
Eli also took every snap injured or not.
Do you ever say to yourself, "Boy, I can see Jones winning multiple big games in a row?" which is what it will take if you want a 5th trophy.
Next year Daniel Jones is going to lead the Giants to a Super Bowl victory over the undefeated Chargers. The key play is going to be when he miraculously gets out of a sack and heaves the ball downfalls to Travis Toivonen, who catches the ball against his helmet.
You could still hit receivers in 04,05 and 06. Defense wasn't fully outlawed yet. It was a different era. Eli is of the generation of QB's that I feel played during the transition.
a quarterback that compares to Eli anyway? The Giants were only ever really dominant for a full season once during his tenure here. What separates Eli from other past Giants QB's was his ability to stay healthy and his magic in the playoffs. He was really only a top 5 QB one season.
I love Eli. We all do. But we love most his magical playoff runs and his ability to stay on the field. DJ doesn't have that yet. DJ stats are comparable to Eli Manning's regular season stats, which were about middle of the pack during his time here. Eli's legend was really born in the postseason, something DJ's Giants haven't done yet.
The changed in rules on the defensive side had not happened yet as well as the protections of QB's in the pocket.
The NFC East had two HOF coaches with a most likely third (AR with a Jim Johnson defense) in it and the NFC East was a much better division then.
I think Eli showed enough outstanding moments to just hope he would eventually eliminate some truly frustrating game(s). As we learned he would always maintain some low moments but...you learned to deal with it.
Eli also took every snap injured or not.
Do you ever say to yourself, "Boy, I can see Jones winning multiple big games in a row?" which is what it will take if you want a 5th trophy.
Was it a "different era" in 2017? 2018? 2019?
If not, then your argument holds no water.
Why are you ignoring the age difference though? Eli was 36-38 in those years usually way past a QB's prime. Jones on the other hand is 14 years younger beginning his stretch.
I was off the Eli bandwagon after the Vikings game in his 4th season in '07. Eli also led the league in INTs in 2007.
Somehow the lightbulb flashed and he ascended to another level during the playoff run that year and the years after.
I get it, it's an easy comparison to make. But I just don't think it's very helpful to compare any young QB to Eli because he had a very unique trajectory and overall career. You can't count on Jones or a struggling young QB to have that kind of trajectory.
I don't believe it's as much of a comparison as it is an example of how things can "click" and that not every QB is great right out of the gate or even within the first couple seasons.
of people saying the era Daniel Jones is playing in is different than the Eli era vs. the people saying that Eli's overall stats mean shit because Eli played in a pass-happy era
Eli was 9-26 his last 35 games with the Giants. Passed for 8809 yards with 46 TD's and 29 INTs. He was sacked 83 times. Outside of Daniels ability to run the stats are fairly similar.
The W/L records are similarly futile. What these discussions should make obvious is that the team surrounding your QB makes a difference. A crappy OL leads to losses.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
The eras weren't that different.
And Eli had a vastly superior team (offense and defense) and coaching staff around him. But his detractors will never admit to that.
Those who say the Eli comparisons are not legit also amusingly ignore the fact that Eli was a losing quarterback (well under .500) during the second half of his career because he had the same surrounding talent issues that Daniel Jones now has.
In 5 sentences you concisely gave the best summary of an issue that surfaces daily here on almost every thread. Really well done 👍
This is not hard guys. Jones is a good/solid QB if he has solid protection/weapons. Note that I didn't say GREAT protection/weapons; just a reasonable level of both. But due to poor roster management and an unbelievable amount of teammate injuries of his career, the Giants continue to set him up for failure.
a quarterback that compares to Eli anyway? The Giants were only ever really dominant for a full season once during his tenure here. What separates Eli from other past Giants QB's was his ability to stay healthy and his magic in the playoffs. He was really only a top 5 QB one season.
I love Eli. We all do. But we love most his magical playoff runs and his ability to stay on the field. DJ doesn't have that yet. DJ stats are comparable to Eli Manning's regular season stats, which were about middle of the pack during his time here. Eli's legend was really born in the postseason, something DJ's Giants haven't done yet.
The fact you can win with good, not great, QB is what the takeaway should be.
You have to take Jones' stats with a grain of salt. Many of his stats have been accumulated in garbage time. He has had a lot of games where the Giants are down big and he's getting chunk yardage and meaningless TD's against a prevent defense.
because I do think people aren't really thinking anymore but just picking sides is this:
A couple of weeks ago Daniel wins "NFC Player of the Week" (second or third time he's won it) and his supporters are yelling "See, I told you he's a good one!"
Now he's coming off a 4-turnover game and his detractors are yelling, "See, I told you he's a bad one!"
Especially the OL. Eli had a superior team in terms of talent! Gettlemen needs to go and Garrett needs to hit the road!!! Make those two changes and things get infinitely better!
Especially the OL. Eli had a superior team in terms of talent! Gettlemen needs to go and Garrett needs to hit the road!!! Make those two changes and things get infinitely better!
He's good enough where you don't reach on a prospect for the sake of the future, but not good enough to totally keep other QB prospects out of the conversation come draft time. Good guy, hard worker, shows flashes. Not good enough to warrant keeping a new GM from choosing another guy he may be sold on.
was definitely a tougher/different era than 2019-2021.
2004 League Average Passing Stats: 3368 yards, 23 TD, 17 INT, 6.1 YPP
2005 League Average Passing Stats: 3255 yards, 20 TD, 15 INT, 5.9 YPP
2005 League Average Passing Stats: 3276 yards, 20 TD, 16 INT, 6.0 YPP
2019 League Average Passing Stats: 3759 yards, 25 TD, 13 INT, 6.3 YPP
2020 League Average Passing Stats: 3842 yards, 27 TD, 12 INT, 6.4 YPP
2021 League Average Passing Stats (Annualized): 3952 yards, 27 TD, 13 INT, 6.6 YPP
It's much easier to throw the ball now. Eli definitely had a better supporting cast, but the start of his career was in an era in which it was much harder to throw.
Do you really think Eli was "washed up" in 2017 and 2018?
I guess if you do, you have an argument.
But from my eyes, I saw yet another quarterback with a shitty offensive line and defense around him.
What about 2012-2015 then? Was Eli washed up then too?
I do think Eli was pretty washed up by then. Don't get me wrong the team around him didn't help and probably caused him to diminish a little quicker than he might have otherwise.
Definitely not as much in those later years but he was still getting into hid mid 30s at that time.
I don't think Jones is as bad as a lot make him out to be but when you take a QB #6 you have to elevate the offense around you and I just don't see it that often from Jones. Even before the 1st SB when ELi had a lot of stinkers he also threw in those games that he put the team on his back and got them a W. Jones has not done it once from what I recall except for maybe that first career game against TB!
There's just too many factors to directly compare then so I don't know what point the OP was trying to make but it holds no water.
He's good enough where you don't reach on a prospect for the sake of the future, but not good enough to totally keep other QB prospects out of the conversation come draft time. Good guy, hard worker, shows flashes. Not good enough to warrant keeping a new GM from choosing another guy he may be sold on.
Agree 100%. If they love a Corral or a Willis, go for it. Jones shouldn't hold them back. But if you don't love one of them, they are ok with Jones.
Are we talking about the first three years of each QB?
What I do remember about his first three years is he made many "wow" throws. Not talking about the deep balls (which he excelled at) but the intermediate deep balls based on anticipation and arm talent. Those type of throws eventually won SB's. Plax/Nicks back shoulder throws.
DB's were still allowed to hit. Remember ESPN's "jacked up' segment? Pollian successfully lobbied to change the DB's restrictions. Tom Brady's injury meant low hits were not tolerated. Eli and even more so the real old timers would have loved sitting in these pockets where rushers have to be overly concerned with roughing calls. The game is now totally geared to assisting the passing game.
If running is going to be a part of his game so be it. There is no doubt the organization has not provided him as well as he could. I just don't see a QB you invest a second contract with what he has shown. I would be willing to take that chance he stars elsewhere.
Are we talking about the first three years of each QB?
What I do remember about his first three years is he made many "wow" throws. Not talking about the deep balls (which he excelled at) but the intermediate deep balls based on anticipation and arm talent. Those type of throws eventually won SB's. Plax/Nicks back shoulder throws.
DB's were still allowed to hit. Remember ESPN's "jacked up' segment? Pollian successfully lobbied to change the DB's restrictions. Tom Brady's injury meant low hits were not tolerated. Eli and even more so the real old timers would have loved sitting in these pockets where rushers have to be overly concerned with roughing calls. The game is now totally geared to assisting the passing game.
If running is going to be a part of his game so be it. There is no doubt the organization has not provided him as well as he could. I just don't see a QB you invest a second contract with what he has shown. I would be willing to take that chance he stars elsewhere.
What is your plan for replacing him and when? You are OK with using a few #1 draft picks to replace him?
a quarterback that compares to Eli anyway? The Giants were only ever really dominant for a full season once during his tenure here. What separates Eli from other past Giants QB's was his ability to stay healthy and his magic in the playoffs. He was really only a top 5 QB one season.
I love Eli. We all do. But we love most his magical playoff runs and his ability to stay on the field. DJ doesn't have that yet. DJ stats are comparable to Eli Manning's regular season stats, which were about middle of the pack during his time here. Eli's legend was really born in the postseason, something DJ's Giants haven't done yet.
The fact you can win with good, not great, QB is what the takeaway should be.
But should this be the bar for the Giants? Why not always be trying to get better at the most key position in sports?
Jones is a below average qb on a bad team? Is it so wrong to say that both are true? Jones isn't the worst starting qb in the league and he isn't in the top starting half of the league in terms of qbs. In his last 19 starts (not 20 because of the Cowboys) he's thrown 15td passes and has lead a minimally productive offense. Some of that - not all - is attributable to his largely below average play.
Taylor Heinicke has been a better qb this year than Daniel Jones, statistically and in the W/L column. Does anyone consider Taylor Heinicke the long term answer for WFT? If not, I am not sure how you confidently say a qb like Jones is the answer for the NYG.
for the key stat you mention above. Jones has twice as many fumbles as Eli did and lost as many fumbles as Eli had total. If Jones would clean that up, he wouldn't not get beaten up as much. The biggest issue I see with jones from my lay eye is, he has no pocket awareness and at times does not get through his progressions fast enough.
when evaluating Eli, stats are somewhat meaningless. He didn't have great stats throughout his whole career really. At his peak, he was absolute killer, a clutch QB who shined in the brightest moments. And that was from 2007-11. Basically - years 4 through 8. But even in those years, his "stats" were not that good. However, you'd be hard pressed to find 5 other QBs in the league you wanted over him, and hardly any you wanted over him when the game was on the line. But again, his stats weren't that good. They were middle of the road.
On the flipside with Jones, his "lows" have never been as low as Eli during his first 2+ years as a starter. He has gotten injured multiple times. He clearly does not have the same talent as Eli had, but clearly he has shown that he can be a really good quarterback. He was actually way better out of the gate and seemed to have a better feel for the position of NFL quarterback than Eli had during his first year. But - in large point - the team has absolutely sucked around him. Who has he had at receiver before this season? Who has been his stalwart at LT before this season?
Eli had one of the best offensive lines in football, arguably the best, during a 3-4 year stretch (2006-2010) and that matters.
Use the eye test. When watching games, do you think Daniel Jones can lead the Giants to a championship one day with the way he plays. Because it's not just the quarterback that does everything for you. When the Giants won the Super Bowl in 2008, the defense held one of the best teams in NFL history to 14 points.
Taylor Heinicke has been a better qb this year than Daniel Jones, statistically and in the W/L column. Does anyone consider Taylor Heinicke the long term answer for WFT? If not, I am not sure how you confidently say a qb like Jones is the answer for the NYG.
Taylor Heinicke has been a better qb this year than Daniel Jones, statistically and in the W/L column. Does anyone consider Taylor Heinicke the long term answer for WFT? If not, I am not sure how you confidently say a qb like Jones is the answer for the NYG.
Who cares? Why would you gamble that a QB with these stats will somehow turn it on and be good enough to win with in the playoffs? It worked with Eli so this type of low probability event is what we should bank on?
Not to mention Eli had a better arm and was actually good in college.
Jones is a below average qb on a bad team? Is it so wrong to say that both are true? Jones isn't the worst starting qb in the league and he isn't in the top starting half of the league in terms of qbs. In his last 19 starts (not 20 because of the Cowboys) he's thrown 15td passes and has lead a minimally productive offense. Some of that - not all - is attributable to his largely below average play.
Taylor Heinicke has been a better qb this year than Daniel Jones, statistically and in the W/L column. Does anyone consider Taylor Heinicke the long term answer for WFT? If not, I am not sure how you confidently say a qb like Jones is the answer for the NYG.
I would go BPA for the next two drafts with emphasis on the front 7 and OL. First step win the physical battle.
Look for a QB in the next two drafts. I have posted about the value of a QB being on a rookie contract who have won SB's and how hard it is for teams with QB's on a second contract winning Super Bowls. They truly have to be "elite".
I think a team in the upper tier on both the OL and front 7 with a sound secondary and WR's can win in this league with a "good/very good" rookie QB. Good consistent drafting gives you a good opportunity and the rookie QB salary allows for having quality depth imo.
My reasoning in not all about Jones. It is that we seem so far away still and his contract clock is coming up.
Since II have wavered recently on my Jones stance I think this
argument is a good oen for me to be involved in. I have to admit I have been a Jones guy and very supportive of him. I have taken issue with a few posters (Go terps being one specifically) as I feel that the hatred towards DJ had become just so great that any stat that went against their opinion was ignored, any issue that is give n credence to say (Jackson, Herbert, Rodgers etc) was being completely ignored or even outright discarded when it came to Jones. However, last week I saw DJ do stuff that was absolutely on him- two INTS that were passes that just shouldn't have been thrown at all. That was not good and the lack of scoring with him at QB is becoming a bit alarming. These inside the 10 stall outs are now not just due to poor play elsewhere but seem to be on Jones inability to make those tight quarter throws and quick decisions. Add to that the amount of losing (both now and when he was in college) becomes a MASSIVE concern as at what point does that become common place to him and make it so that you just can't envision him with a winning record.
Again, as I stated in the thread at the top of the page, the biggest issue right now is with our GM and possibly coach as I am 100% done with the GM and not really sure what we have in the Coach. DJ is an issue in that I am not sure what you do with him. Contract wise and cap wise we may be stuck with him regardless in 2022. BUt, I am not against drafting a QB if the NEW GM wants one.
Right now we need to get thge OLINE rebuilt and we need our LT (not left Tackle) our TJ watt, our Michael Strahan etc., our guy who can make a game change with one play, one possession by disrupting what an offense does.
We must build our team around the Oline on Offense and a stud pass rushing, offense disrupting player at EDge/LB'er...
RE: Since II have wavered recently on my Jones stance I think this
argument is a good oen for me to be involved in. I have to admit I have been a Jones guy and very supportive of him. I have taken issue with a few posters (Go terps being one specifically) as I feel that the hatred towards DJ had become just so great that any stat that went against their opinion was ignored, any issue that is give n credence to say (Jackson, Herbert, Rodgers etc) was being completely ignored or even outright discarded when it came to Jones. However, last week I saw DJ do stuff that was absolutely on him- two INTS that were passes that just shouldn't have been thrown at all. That was not good and the lack of scoring with him at QB is becoming a bit alarming. These inside the 10 stall outs are now not just due to poor play elsewhere but seem to be on Jones inability to make those tight quarter throws and quick decisions. Add to that the amount of losing (both now and when he was in college) becomes a MASSIVE concern as at what point does that become common place to him and make it so that you just can't envision him with a winning record.
Again, as I stated in the thread at the top of the page, the biggest issue right now is with our GM and possibly coach as I am 100% done with the GM and not really sure what we have in the Coach. DJ is an issue in that I am not sure what you do with him. Contract wise and cap wise we may be stuck with him regardless in 2022. BUt, I am not against drafting a QB if the NEW GM wants one.
Right now we need to get thge OLINE rebuilt and we need our LT (not left Tackle) our TJ watt, our Michael Strahan etc., our guy who can make a game change with one play, one possession by disrupting what an offense does.
We must build our team around the Oline on Offense and a stud pass rushing, offense disrupting player at EDge/LB'er...
Good post and I commend you for being able to change your stance. Too many folks on either side of an argument stay with their heels dug in these days.
I've said it before, but I'll repeat it for this thread
winning two Super Bowls with Eli Manning, in the way in which we won both of them, was a miracle. It's not a business model for a successful franchise. This is part of the problem the Maras have gotten themselves into. They had some success in the recent past despite themselves. It's easy to then convince yourself that you're doing something right!
However, a successful franchise does not aspire to move heaven and earth to acquire the #1 pick, to then use it on an above average QB and hope he will pull miraculous victories out of his ass.
I'm so amazingly happy that it happened, believe me, but to use that as the benchmark for what good looks like makes no sense.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
If we could fix that, we could change the world.
Applies to practically everything.
In regards to Jones I am the poster child for this.
I have been all over the place on Jones.
I am now firmly.
I don't know.
The Rams game was awful for Jones but admittedly no QB in history would have won that game in those circumstances, with that roster, against that team.
Also, it has become evident over many games that Daniel Jones sucks in the red zone. He might not process fast enough for that tighter environment.
He did not throw many TDs at Duke.
He has not won with consistency in his football life.
He didn't win at Duke because of talent.
He isn't winning in New York because of talent.
Are we sure?
He isn't elevating anyone, that's for sure.
The only thing I think I can say with some certainty is that he isn't a great one.
I would go BPA for the next two drafts with emphasis on the front 7 and OL. First step win the physical battle.
Look for a QB in the next two drafts. I have posted about the value of a QB being on a rookie contract who have won SB's and how hard it is for teams with QB's on a second contract winning Super Bowls. They truly have to be "elite".
I think a team in the upper tier on both the OL and front 7 with a sound secondary and WR's can win in this league with a "good/very good" rookie QB. Good consistent drafting gives you a good opportunity and the rookie QB salary allows for having quality depth imo.
My reasoning in not all about Jones. It is that we seem so far away still and his contract clock is coming up.
I agree that it is much preferable to have a initial contract QB for roster flexibility. However, you are using a high pick to draft a 50-50. The problem the Giants have is that I don't think they really know what they have in Jones. They have once again failed to put him behind a decent OL. We also do not know what second contract might look for Jones..or for that matter Barkley.
I'd get the trenches sorted and then worry about QB. I don't draft a replacement until you have the OL set.
There are gaping holes in Jones games that were just not there for Eli in his 1st game.
Jones is just not savvy. He is more athletic and runs faster. But he is just not a savvy runner either and I don't think you are gong to see much of him running any more anyway. Can you argue that this bad team makes him look bad possible? But I just find it hard to believe that playing on a bad team is what makes him timid about throwing into tight windows and in the red zone. Also he just can't go through reads he bird dogs receivers and it leads to picks.
RE: RE: Since II have wavered recently on my Jones stance I think this
argument is a good oen for me to be involved in. I have to admit I have been a Jones guy and very supportive of him. I have taken issue with a few posters (Go terps being one specifically) as I feel that the hatred towards DJ had become just so great that any stat that went against their opinion was ignored, any issue that is give n credence to say (Jackson, Herbert, Rodgers etc) was being completely ignored or even outright discarded when it came to Jones. However, last week I saw DJ do stuff that was absolutely on him- two INTS that were passes that just shouldn't have been thrown at all. That was not good and the lack of scoring with him at QB is becoming a bit alarming. These inside the 10 stall outs are now not just due to poor play elsewhere but seem to be on Jones inability to make those tight quarter throws and quick decisions. Add to that the amount of losing (both now and when he was in college) becomes a MASSIVE concern as at what point does that become common place to him and make it so that you just can't envision him with a winning record.
Again, as I stated in the thread at the top of the page, the biggest issue right now is with our GM and possibly coach as I am 100% done with the GM and not really sure what we have in the Coach. DJ is an issue in that I am not sure what you do with him. Contract wise and cap wise we may be stuck with him regardless in 2022. BUt, I am not against drafting a QB if the NEW GM wants one.
Right now we need to get thge OLINE rebuilt and we need our LT (not left Tackle) our TJ watt, our Michael Strahan etc., our guy who can make a game change with one play, one possession by disrupting what an offense does.
We must build our team around the Oline on Offense and a stud pass rushing, offense disrupting player at EDge/LB'er...
Good post and I commend you for being able to change your stance. Too many folks on either side of an argument stay with their heels dug in these days.
I agree let’s build the OL and get a pass rusher and a linebacker or two. We drafted DJ and SB before we fixed OL. The DJ thing will play out his year and probably next. The constant arguing about Jones every week is getting old.
so jones has 39 total touchdowns through 2.5 seasons..
24 of those came his rookie year in a different offense. that means he's thrown 15 total TD passes in the season and a half since his rookie year in the current system. so, is garrett's system shitty or is jones shitty, or, as a poster above intimated, is it a bit of both.
whatever the reason, you can't win with that kind of abysmal production. it's embarrassingly poor. it's year three and the game has yet to "slow down" for jones. eli was brilliant at the LoS and changing in and out of plays. jones, notsomuch.
jones is currently the worst quarterback in the division. considering where he was drafted, that is alarming.
You might want to revisit Eli's win-loss record in his last few years here.
Again, I'm not saying Daniel Jones is the answer or not, but half of the Giants fan base was still demanding the Giants dump Eli in 2007, four years into his career.
Eli was past his prime at that point. It's crazy to make a prognosis on DJ based on Eli last few years in the league.
Eli's last three years for any comparison. Even if you don't think he was washed up, he was in decline, even Eli would admit to that. Not to mention the team was in complete disarray.
because I do think people aren't really thinking anymore but just picking sides is this:
A couple of weeks ago Daniel wins "NFC Player of the Week" (second or third time he's won it) and his supporters are yelling "See, I told you he's a good one!"
Now he's coming off a 4-turnover game and his detractors are yelling, "See, I told you he's a bad one!"
It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
Great post Eric.
The longer I live the more I realize that fandom is fickle.
I had a woman at the convenience store say to me " Man are you brave for wearing that Giants shirt ". I told her, " I have been a Giants fan for 45 years and got the opportunity to watch them win the Super Bowl with my son. The losing sucks but when they get good again it will be very sweet."
The Giants are not very good, part of that is because Jones is still growing as a NFL QB. The game he had vs. New Orleans was outstanding and could be a more normal occasion if we had a higher quality O Line and our record would be better if we had more big plays and a pass rush on defense.
The NFL is much different than the days of Phil Simms. He didn't become a very good player until 1984, his 6th year. Nobody has the patience for a QB to mature and grow, results are needed quicker, which also results in dumping a QB before his second contract. Shit, the Dolphins may we giving up on Tua already. Honesty, it makes me not like the NFL that much.
I tend to believe that if the franchise can get a viable O Line, and a pass rusher that is a dominant player, they could turn things around.
Jones seems to have a good set of skills and a strong enough arm and work ethic to have success. Jones can be part of the solution.
Jones seems to have a good set of skills and a strong enough arm and work ethic to have success. Jones can be part of the solution.
His best case scenario is probably similar to Kirk Cousins. Can put up pretty stats under the right circumstances, but not an elite player in any way, and ultimately not a guy who's likely to start for a real contender.
don't understand why we need to keep having this debate. either he's going to be the QB for us long term or he's not, largely depending on how the rest of this year goes. In all likelihood he will get 2022 to play, considering A) we aren't paying him any meaningful dollars quite yet, B) even if we did draft a QB, they aren't likely to start right away, and C) there's a good chance any new GM (and Judge especially) wants to roll with Jones instead of any of the QBs that are deemed to be 1st round worthy.
This thing where posters have to emasculate themselves in order to defend their stance on Jones is getting really ridiculous. You either like him a lot, you hate him, or you're willing to wait it out.
The only recent team that really didn't do this was the Cardinals, as it was extremely apparent basically right away that Rosen didn't have any type of NFL leadership abilities.
Justin Herbert, the 6th pick in the 2020 draft. Jones was the 6th pick in the proceeding draft.
Both started a significant number of games as rookies, both have had multiple head coaches and offensive coordinators, both played into their senior years in college, both were viewed (in some corners) risky lottery picks, both are big and athletic.
while that may be true, Kirk Cousins has largely played at a Pro Bowl level for a few seasons now. He had an excellent season last year, and is continuing that this year.
because I think Jones can only be as good as Cousins, I think he'll be better. I'm just saying that Cousins is a good NFL quarterback.
I think Cousins is better now than Jones will ever be. Not by a lot, but yeah, I think Jones ceiling is a little below Cousins. On the right team, that could win.
It was already a passing league when Eli Manning came up,
but the deck was not nearly as stacked in favor of passing (in terms of how pass interference was called and qbs were protected) as it is today. With that said, Eli was a wildly divisive player among Giants fans through 3 years of his career. The game in Buffalo in Year 4, ironically a win where the Giants clinched a playoff spot, Eli's performance that day was one of the worst of his entire career. The team then went on an amazing run, Eli looked like a completely different player than we had seen through 4 full seasons, and he was officially the toast of the town.
My point is that saying Daniel Jones' numbers are only slightly worse than Eli's were through this time in his career is not proving the point you think it is because Eli was teetering on the edge of being a failed player before he got his act together just in time.
Although, in Eli's defense, I will note that he had already showed an incredible nack for playing his best at critical moments of games and driving the team down the filed when he absolutely had to. The team was much better, no question, but Eli won some games for them early in his career (a game against Denver at home comes to mind, he also drove them down the field for a late game tying score in Philly in the wildcard game in 2006 before the defense gave it up at the very end). Jones has shown absolutely zero of that.
Justin Herbert, the 6th pick in the 2020 draft. Jones was the 6th pick in the proceeding draft.
Both started a significant number of games as rookies, both have had multiple head coaches and offensive coordinators, both played into their senior years in college, both were viewed (in some corners) risky lottery picks, both are big and athletic.
One is now a top 10 QB. One isn't close.
One had Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Hunter Henry and a coach who had been with his team a few years (plus a decent defense).. JOnes has been on a team with SS (injured), Golden tate (done done), SB (can't stay healthy), no Oline and a TE who epitomizes the state of this organization..
Justin Herbert, the 6th pick in the 2020 draft. Jones was the 6th pick in the proceeding draft.
Both started a significant number of games as rookies, both have had multiple head coaches and offensive coordinators, both played into their senior years in college, both were viewed (in some corners) risky lottery picks, both are big and athletic.
One is now a top 10 QB. One isn't close.
One had Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Hunter Henry and a coach who had been with his team a few years (plus a decent defense).. JOnes has been on a team with SS (injured), Golden tate (done done), SB (can't stay healthy), no Oline and a TE who epitomizes the state of this organization..
Again, I am no longer sold on Jones but when you ignore obvious pieces just to further your opinion on Jones it loses credibility.
Justin Herbert, the 6th pick in the 2020 draft. Jones was the 6th pick in the proceeding draft.
Both started a significant number of games as rookies, both have had multiple head coaches and offensive coordinators, both played into their senior years in college, both were viewed (in some corners) risky lottery picks, both are big and athletic.
One is now a top 10 QB. One isn't close.
One had Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Hunter Henry and a coach who had been with his team a few years (plus a decent defense).. JOnes has been on a team with SS (injured), Golden tate (done done), SB (can't stay healthy), no Oline and a TE who epitomizes the state of this organization..
Uh, Herbert had one of the worst OLs in football last year in terms of allowing pressure. Yet, despite that, Herbert was the best QB in the league - by QBR - in dealing with that pressure. So that's merely a better set of receivers? This year his blind side is being protected by a rookie LT.
Herbert is on his second HC and second OC. So I don't understand your coaching point...
Good post. I wanted to get rid of Eli a few times. He was maddening at times. But if you look back the signs were there that he had the "it" factor. I remember they played San Diego and all the talk was Rivers and how well he and the Chargers were doing. They lost the game but Eli played big under a lot of pressure on the road.
because I do think people aren't really thinking anymore but just picking sides is this:
A couple of weeks ago Daniel wins "NFC Player of the Week" (second or third time he's won it) and his supporters are yelling "See, I told you he's a good one!"
Now he's coming off a 4-turnover game and his detractors are yelling, "See, I told you he's a bad one!"
It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
Our fanbase is horrible and it was horrible when we were winning Superbowls with Eli. Our fans are a bunch of whiny, entitled bitches and literally 90% of the whining is pure "in the moment, emotional" garnage that isn't even well thought-out.
things just not get to him. NFCCG against Favre at Lambeau, NFCCG at San Francisco hit 21 times, standing tall against BB and TB twice in the Super Bowl.
Have we seen enough subtle signs from Jones that we can expect him to do some of these things (most likely he will have to do something very special) somewhere down the road?
a quarterback that compares to Eli anyway? The Giants were only ever really dominant for a full season once during his tenure here. What separates Eli from other past Giants QB's was his ability to stay healthy and his magic in the playoffs. He was really only a top 5 QB one season.
I love Eli. We all do. But we love most his magical playoff runs and his ability to stay on the field. DJ doesn't have that yet. DJ stats are comparable to Eli Manning's regular season stats, which were about middle of the pack during his time here. Eli's legend was really born in the postseason, something DJ's Giants haven't done yet.
The fact you can win with good, not great, QB is what the takeaway should be.
But should this be the bar for the Giants? Why not always be trying to get better at the most key position in sports?
Who said we don't want him to get better? But every week.... he's great, no he sucks... Oh he fumbled let's draft a QB. Wait, NFC Player Of The Week... I love me some DJ. Just stop.... bunch of bandwagon fools.
Jones is a below average qb on a bad team? Is it so wrong to say that both are true? Jones isn't the worst starting qb in the league and he isn't in the top starting half of the league in terms of qbs. In his last 19 starts (not 20 because of the Cowboys) he's thrown 15td passes and has lead a minimally productive offense. Some of that - not all - is attributable to his largely below average play.
Taylor Heinicke has been a better qb this year than Daniel Jones, statistically and in the W/L column. Does anyone consider Taylor Heinicke the long term answer for WFT? If not, I am not sure how you confidently say a qb like Jones is the answer for the NYG.
It can be that but you nor I know it because the guy hasn't lined up for one snap in his career with an even AVERAGE offensive line...
There are gaping holes in Jones games that were just not there for Eli in his 1st game.
Jones is just not savvy. He is more athletic and runs faster. But he is just not a savvy runner either and I don't think you are gong to see much of him running any more anyway. Can you argue that this bad team makes him look bad possible? But I just find it hard to believe that playing on a bad team is what makes him timid about throwing into tight windows and in the red zone. Also he just can't go through reads he bird dogs receivers and it leads to picks.
Ah... so even statistical proof doesn't work for you. AND you have a horrible memory. Eli was mind-bogglingly bad at times in his first 4 years. Remember the home game vs Minnesota? THREE pick 6s and 4 Ints... people were calling for his head and he won a Superbowl 12 weeks later.
Jones is a below average qb on a bad team? Is it so wrong to say that both are true? Jones isn't the worst starting qb in the league and he isn't in the top starting half of the league in terms of qbs. In his last 19 starts (not 20 because of the Cowboys) he's thrown 15td passes and has lead a minimally productive offense. Some of that - not all - is attributable to his largely below average play.
Taylor Heinicke has been a better qb this year than Daniel Jones, statistically and in the W/L column. Does anyone consider Taylor Heinicke the long term answer for WFT? If not, I am not sure how you confidently say a qb like Jones is the answer for the NYG.
It can be that but you nor I know it because the guy hasn't lined up for one snap in his career with an even AVERAGE offensive line...
So you hate us terrible Giants fans, yet you waste your time interacting with us on a Giants message board? And, we are terrible because we want to see a product be something more than mediocre to bad? Cool.
Do you really think Eli was "washed up" in 2017 and 2018?
I guess if you do, you have an argument.
But from my eyes, I saw yet another quarterback with a shitty offensive line and defense around him.
What about 2012-2015 then? Was Eli washed up then too?
2017-18: yes, I thought Eli was washed up. I thought he played pretty badly in the 2017 regular season, had a good playoff game, and then was basically a replacement level player afterwards.
During that 2017-19 period, two players replaced him in the starting lineup. Geno Smith played about the same level as Eli v the Raiders. A rookie Daniel Jones was distinctly more exciting, just a more productive player.
Those A/B switches support the point the Eli was basically done after the Packers wild card game.
because I think Jones can only be as good as Cousins, I think he'll be better. I'm just saying that Cousins is a good NFL quarterback.
i can buy that cousins is an average-to-good NFL quarterback.
since cousins been a starter, he's thrown an average of 29 passing TDs a season over his six seasons (and has 13 passing TDs so far this season).
jones had 11 TD passes last year and has four this year through six games.
jones is a long, long way from kirk cousins level production (kirk cousins was also a 4th round draft pick).
under judge and garrett, jones has been a marginal player who cannot put points on the board.
even in that dreadful 2017 season where eli was benched for geno smith, and with beckham, brandon marshall, pugh, fluker, and richburg all on IR, and with engram and shepard missing half the season with injuries, a supposedly "washed" eli threw 19 TD passes under slickback mac.
jones needs to do a hell of a lot better. outside of some 4th quarter/OT heroics in the saints game, he's shown nothing in his time under judge/garrett.
because I do think people aren't really thinking anymore but just picking sides is this:
A couple of weeks ago Daniel wins "NFC Player of the Week" (second or third time he's won it) and his supporters are yelling "See, I told you he's a good one!"
Now he's coming off a 4-turnover game and his detractors are yelling, "See, I told you he's a bad one!"
It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
Our fanbase is horrible and it was horrible when we were winning Superbowls with Eli. Our fans are a bunch of whiny, entitled bitches and literally 90% of the whining is pure "in the moment, emotional" garnage that isn't even well thought-out.
Apples and oranges. One of those performances is much more of an outlier than the other.
How many games has Jones come from behind games had and been a large reason why we won and how many that he failed to score TDs in the red zone or he turned the ball over and was a big part of the reason we lost?
Good post. I wanted to get rid of Eli a few times. He was maddening at times. But if you look back the signs were there that he had the "it" factor. I remember they played San Diego and all the talk was Rivers and how well he and the Chargers were doing. They lost the game but Eli played big under a lot of pressure on the road.
that 05 san diego loss was when i knew eli was the goods. played his ass off that game.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
The eras weren't that different.
And Eli had a vastly superior team (offense and defense) and coaching staff around him. But his detractors will never admit to that.
Those who say the Eli comparisons are not legit also amusingly ignore the fact that Eli was a losing quarterback (well under .500) during the second half of his career because he had the same surrounding talent issues that Daniel Jones now has.
Very true. I haven't made my mind up yet and I'm by far no expert but neither are most on here. The bashing is ridiculous.
in 2017 and 2018. He would have had to have had a top OL and running game. His mind would allow him to make enough plays to keep a team competitive. Rising to playoff Eli was probably not a reality at that point in his career.
I think John Mara would have been ecstatic if Eli could have played in meaningful games in December with playoff hopes alive. Getting in would be gravy. I think this is what he had in mind when Dave took over.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
The eras weren't that different.
And Eli had a vastly superior team (offense and defense) and coaching staff around him. But his detractors will never admit to that.
Those who say the Eli comparisons are not legit also amusingly ignore the fact that Eli was a losing quarterback (well under .500) during the second half of his career because he had the same surrounding talent issues that Daniel Jones now has.
There's an enormous amount of facts and evidence that Jones isn't particularly good. It's been cited here many times: poor stats, low scoring, a terrible record as a starter. General poor performance.
The arguments in his favor stray away from facts and towards conjecture:
- placing blame on the supporting cast
- comparisons to other players in Giants' history
- scenarios where more successful players are swapped with Jones ("You think Lamar Jackson would be as successful if he were on the Giants instead of the Ravens?")
It has not worked out here with Daniel Jones. That is a fact. It is not an opinion.
if they think Jones has had a strong staff and offensive personnel support his first three years.
The issue now is moving forward. Eli was on a 6 year contract and contacts then for QB's were very big relative to the cap.
Giants have to make a decision on Jones and whether or not he is worth the very big contract coming up. So the question is not what he did not have but what do you forecast for him the next 3-4 years. It becomes very hard to build all the pieces when you lay out that contract. So how one answers that is I guess where you stand with Jones.
I agree with you much if the time but not here. I perceived a notable lack of intensity starting in 2016. Eli just wasn’t playing with the passion he did earlier. If not for the money, he should have retired for personal reasons after the Packers playoff.
And who can blame him? He’d worked with gameplanning authorities like Tom Coughlin and Gilbride and now the coach was Ben McAdoo? What? They weren’t winning with McAdoo and Eli knew it.
if they think Jones has had a strong staff and offensive personnel support his first three years.
The issue now is moving forward. Eli was on a 6 year contract and contacts then for QB's were very big relative to the cap.
Giants have to make a decision on Jones and whether or not he is worth the very big contract coming up. So the question is not what he did not have but what do you forecast for him the next 3-4 years. It becomes very hard to build all the pieces when you lay out that contract. So how one answers that is I guess where you stand with Jones.
Totally agree with your last point. The place where the Giants dwell means that Jones shouldn’t be the team’s future QB unless he is exceptional - and he isn’t.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
The eras weren't that different.
And Eli had a vastly superior team (offense and defense) and coaching staff around him. But his detractors will never admit to that.
Those who say the Eli comparisons are not legit also amusingly ignore the fact that Eli was a losing quarterback (well under .500) during the second half of his career because he had the same surrounding talent issues that Daniel Jones now has.
There's an enormous amount of facts and evidence that Jones isn't particularly good. It's been cited here many times: poor stats, low scoring, a terrible record as a starter. General poor performance.
The arguments in his favor stray away from facts and towards conjecture:
- placing blame on the supporting cast
- comparisons to other players in Giants' history
- scenarios where more successful players are swapped with Jones ("You think Lamar Jackson would be as successful if he were on the Giants instead of the Ravens?")
It has not worked out here with Daniel Jones. That is a fact. It is not an opinion.
You are a national treasure. It is amazing how someone that scours a Giants website all day desperate to post negative about the teams quarterback can have such a limited knowledge of how football works. The supporting cast does matter, Jones' tenure in NY is still up in the air and nothing you say is a fact, it is completely conjecture from somebody obsessed with hating a player on the team he is supposed to root for!
I looked at the SB winning teams the last 20 years
and it was very revealing that only 3 QB's have won one on a second or third contract. Both Mannings, Brady and BR. Brees was on a fairly big contract his first one.
All the others were on a rookie contract or not a highly paid veteran. Wilson, Rogers, Flacco, Wentz/Foles, Mahomes all on rookie contracts. Then you had Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Kurt Warner.
So is Jones in the Eli, Ben or Brady spectrum? Or Wilson, Rogers, Flacco, Wentz, Mahomes spectrum?
but being on a better team isn't a cure for his main weaknesses to date: locking on to receivers, not seeing the open man, red zone performance, fumbling the ball away. You can cover those things up somewhat on a better team, but it's ultimately on him to improve in those areas that have frankly been weaknesses all the way back to his college days.
and it was very revealing that only 3 QB's have won one on a second or third contract. Both Mannings, Brady and BR. Brees was on a fairly big contract his first one.
All the others were on a rookie contract or not a highly paid veteran. Wilson, Rogers, Flacco, Wentz/Foles, Mahomes all on rookie contracts. Then you had Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Kurt Warner.
So is Jones in the Eli, Ben or Brady spectrum? Or Wilson, Rogers, Flacco, Wentz, Mahomes spectrum?
Good points, but Brees was not on his first contract, he signed in NO as a FA.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
The eras weren't that different.
And Eli had a vastly superior team (offense and defense) and coaching staff around him. But his detractors will never admit to that.
Those who say the Eli comparisons are not legit also amusingly ignore the fact that Eli was a losing quarterback (well under .500) during the second half of his career because he had the same surrounding talent issues that Daniel Jones now has.
There's an enormous amount of facts and evidence that Jones isn't particularly good. It's been cited here many times: poor stats, low scoring, a terrible record as a starter. General poor performance.
The arguments in his favor stray away from facts and towards conjecture:
- placing blame on the supporting cast
- comparisons to other players in Giants' history
- scenarios where more successful players are swapped with Jones ("You think Lamar Jackson would be as successful if he were on the Giants instead of the Ravens?")
It has not worked out here with Daniel Jones. That is a fact. It is not an opinion.
You are a national treasure. It is amazing how someone that scours a Giants website all day desperate to post negative about the teams quarterback can have such a limited knowledge of how football works. The supporting cast does matter, Jones' tenure in NY is still up in the air and nothing you say is a fact, it is completely conjecture from somebody obsessed with hating a player on the team he is supposed to root for!
If you don't like Terps take on Jones, let's read what someone who does know how football works said
Quote:
Remember, year 3 is all about evaluating whether or not Jones will be the long-term answer at quarterback. Part of that includes whether or not he performs well through adversity. Part of that includes how much he can elevate those around him greater than the sum of its parts. He failed here. There are a couple things that can be pointed at, but we must keep things simple. Jones was overmatched mentally and physically. No question.
For Brees I used "pretty big contract". He had the injured shoulder and I thought he received a good contract but not in the tier of someone like Peyton and later Eli, Roeth, etc.
The supporting cast does matter, Jones' tenure in NY is still up in the air and nothing you say is a fact, it is completely conjecture from somebody obsessed with hating a player on the team he is supposed to root for!
Supporting casts do matter, but the real franchise QBs are able to execute without football utopia. See Lamar Jackson this year.
I really think Jones could be a fairly good QB. But the infrastructure needed on the offensive side of the ball to support that would require a big investment to create football utopia. Unfortunately, the limitations of the hard cap model make that virtually impossible.
RE: I looked at the SB winning teams the last 20 years
and it was very revealing that only 3 QB's have won one on a second or third contract. Both Mannings, Brady and BR. Brees was on a fairly big contract his first one.
All the others were on a rookie contract or not a highly paid veteran. Wilson, Rogers, Flacco, Wentz/Foles, Mahomes all on rookie contracts. Then you had Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Kurt Warner.
So is Jones in the Eli, Ben or Brady spectrum? Or Wilson, Rogers, Flacco, Wentz, Mahomes spectrum?
Jones has shown nothing that says he belongs with those names.
He’s 9-23 as a starter & he’s thrown only 4 TD’s this year. 4! After throwing only 11 last year.
Why are so many attached to Jones? I don’t get it. Shouldn’t our standards be higher?
Exactly. I don't get the attachment.
When Eli declined I could understand not wanting to move on from a club legend. But what makes Jones any different from any other flameout first rounder? If they traded him today I'd forget him in a week. Same with every other player on this roster - none of them have earned anything.
Until something better comes along. If the value isn’t there then add pass rushers, ol and front 7 so that we have the structure in place for the next rookie. Last pieces to add are wr, cb, te, s and lastly rb. We had it all backwards. I’m one that bought into saquon too. I should have known better after wheatly, Dayne and wilson. I hope the giants never draft a rb in the 1st for as long as I live
What he does well on a small sample size is tight window throws down the field.
*****Small sample sizes can be misleading****
Everyone can point to some beautiful throws DJ has made, and they wonder, if he just had a better OL he could do that all of time.
That is not necessarily true.
He MIGHT be able to do that more.
He is terrible at throwing TDs inside the 20. This is not a small sample size.
Subjectively, if Jones had a legit supporting cast he might be a better QB. Acting like that is a forgone conclusion is the mistake many of you are making.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
The eras weren't that different.
And Eli had a vastly superior team (offense and defense) and coaching staff around him. But his detractors will never admit to that.
Those who say the Eli comparisons are not legit also amusingly ignore the fact that Eli was a losing quarterback (well under .500) during the second half of his career because he had the same surrounding talent issues that Daniel Jones now has.
There's an enormous amount of facts and evidence that Jones isn't particularly good. It's been cited here many times: poor stats, low scoring, a terrible record as a starter. General poor performance.
The arguments in his favor stray away from facts and towards conjecture:
- placing blame on the supporting cast
- comparisons to other players in Giants' history
- scenarios where more successful players are swapped with Jones ("You think Lamar Jackson would be as successful if he were on the Giants instead of the Ravens?")
It has not worked out here with Daniel Jones. That is a fact. It is not an opinion.
You are a national treasure. It is amazing how someone that scours a Giants website all day desperate to post negative about the teams quarterback can have such a limited knowledge of how football works. The supporting cast does matter, Jones' tenure in NY is still up in the air and nothing you say is a fact, it is completely conjecture from somebody obsessed with hating a player on the team he is supposed to root for!
If you don't like Terps take on Jones, let's read what someone who does know how football works said
Quote:
Remember, year 3 is all about evaluating whether or not Jones will be the long-term answer at quarterback. Part of that includes whether or not he performs well through adversity. Part of that includes how much he can elevate those around him greater than the sum of its parts. He failed here. There are a couple things that can be pointed at, but we must keep things simple. Jones was overmatched mentally and physically. No question.
Scooter he is talking about one game and I could bore everybody and go get the Phil Simms or Dilfer quotes where they gush about him. This all gets us to the point that his tenure is still up in the air.
Until something better comes along. If the value isn’t there then add pass rushers, ol and front 7 so that we have the structure in place for the next rookie. Last pieces to add are wr, cb, te, s and lastly rb. We had it all backwards. I’m one that bought into saquon too. I should have known better after wheatly, Dayne and wilson. I hope the giants never draft a rb in the 1st for as long as I live
I am hoping they go this way and think they will. Don't force the QB. I think SB was to help Eli. I also would not be surprised if Mara #10 or Tisch #4 was fiercely fighting for that SB pick.
The supporting cast does matter, Jones' tenure in NY is still up in the air and nothing you say is a fact, it is completely conjecture from somebody obsessed with hating a player on the team he is supposed to root for!
Supporting casts do matter, but the real franchise QBs are able to execute without football utopia. See Lamar Jackson this year.
I really think Jones could be a fairly good QB. But the infrastructure needed on the offensive side of the ball to support that would require a big investment to create football utopia. Unfortunately, the limitations of the hard cap model make that virtually impossible.
BW, what if Jones could be a good to very good QB? Is that worth something? It is really hard to get those guys as well. He doesn't have to be Aaron Rodgers, but i would surely take good to very good QB play and move on to fixing the defense and the wholes on the OL.
The Giants also had a much easier schedule in Eli’s second year, if memory serves. I don’t think they’ve had as easy a schedule since Jones was drafted, and probably a little further back than that.
Used to be fun, but it has become stale and a cumbersome topic.
It is discussed obsessively by rival camps as if their ability to win the point will be the determining factor as to how the Giants handle the quarterback situation going further
I like him, I think he can be very good. However, I will not guarantee that he will be the answer going forward, which is quite different from the absolute certainty with which many have dismissed him.
What I know is this. It would absolutely be the best thing for the Giants if he turned out to be a great player, starting all over again with another young quarterback after a decade of losing is not something I will root for.
I will continue to hope for his and the team s success until they decide they must move on, at which time I will get behind the new guy.
The incessant criticism of Jones, the continued high jacking of threads to make these criticisms, has changed the tenor of this board and not in a good way.
Jones either will or will not prove to be the guy. There really is no need to take every bad play by Jones and every good play by another quarterback to drive home the point that you believe Jones stinks; believe me we know what you think.
The supporting cast does matter, Jones' tenure in NY is still up in the air and nothing you say is a fact, it is completely conjecture from somebody obsessed with hating a player on the team he is supposed to root for!
Supporting casts do matter, but the real franchise QBs are able to execute without football utopia. See Lamar Jackson this year.
I really think Jones could be a fairly good QB. But the infrastructure needed on the offensive side of the ball to support that would require a big investment to create football utopia. Unfortunately, the limitations of the hard cap model make that virtually impossible.
BW, what if Jones could be a good to very good QB? Is that worth something? It is really hard to get those guys as well. He doesn't have to be Aaron Rodgers, but i would surely take good to very good QB play and move on to fixing the defense and the wholes on the OL.
I just do not want to give him a second contract on maybe. He needs to prove it fast. He could do this in losing efforts. Throw touchdowns. Jones needs to prove it folks, and the people waiting for that are not out of line.
Used to be fun, but it has become stale and a cumbersome topic.
It is discussed obsessively by rival camps as if their ability to win the point will be the determining factor as to how the Giants handle the quarterback situation going further
I like him, I think he can be very good. However, I will not guarantee that he will be the answer going forward, which is quite different from the absolute certainty with which many have dismissed him.
What I know is this. It would absolutely be the best thing for the Giants if he turned out to be a great player, starting all over again with another young quarterback after a decade of losing is not something I will root for.
I will continue to hope for his and the team s success until they decide they must move on, at which time I will get behind the new guy.
The incessant criticism of Jones, the continued high jacking of threads to make these criticisms, has changed the tenor of this board and not in a good way.
Jones either will or will not prove to be the guy. There really is no need to take every bad play by Jones and every good play by another quarterback to drive home the point that you believe Jones stinks; believe me we know what you think.
Agree 100%. I have tried to stay off these redicilous and repetitive Jones threads
RE: RE: Eli was also significantly better in year 2
The Giants also had a much easier schedule in Eli’s second year, if memory serves. I don’t think they’ve had as easy a schedule since Jones was drafted, and probably a little further back than that.
Easy schedule? We played in possibly the worst division in NFL history last year. We got hammered at home by a 6-10 49er team with a backup QB. Got hammered at home by an 8-8 Cards team. The toughest team we played all year, Jones didn’t play. I’m not sure the schedule was hard other than any schedule would have been hard for that squad.
RE: RE: Eli was also significantly better in year 2
The Giants also had a much easier schedule in Eli’s second year, if memory serves. I don’t think they’ve had as easy a schedule since Jones was drafted, and probably a little further back than that.
The entire NFC was awful last year, it will never get easier for him.
Hard to admit to myself because it means we are farther away.
I still want to be the guy, but I am off his bandwaggon until he does something tangible on the field with consistency. That does not make me a hater. I have been a cheerleader for a large part of his career, at some point objective reality takes over.
Is worth a payday. Now if he agrees to a very friendly contact then you consider it. Very friendly being comparable to what we see veterans hanging around the league playing at 10 million.
Cousins gets 30 million. Would you give Jones 4 years at 30 mill/year? That’s a bargain and then you will have to let guys go.
Priority number 1 is not the QB for the Giants. It’s determining if this is the right HC and who is running the drafts and assembling the team imo. Until the drafting improves we are not close to competing for a championship regardless of QB.
I think it’s a long shot Jones stars elsewhere but I’ll certainly pull for him. Seems like a better candidate to pull a Brad Johnson or Trent Dilfer down the road.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
The eras weren't that different.
And Eli had a vastly superior team (offense and defense) and coaching staff around him. But his detractors will never admit to that.
Those who say the Eli comparisons are not legit also amusingly ignore the fact that Eli was a losing quarterback (well under .500) during the second half of his career because he had the same surrounding talent issues that Daniel Jones now has.
There's an enormous amount of facts and evidence that Jones isn't particularly good. It's been cited here many times: poor stats, low scoring, a terrible record as a starter. General poor performance.
The arguments in his favor stray away from facts and towards conjecture:
- placing blame on the supporting cast
- comparisons to other players in Giants' history
- scenarios where more successful players are swapped with Jones ("You think Lamar Jackson would be as successful if he were on the Giants instead of the Ravens?")
It has not worked out here with Daniel Jones. That is a fact. It is not an opinion.
You are a national treasure. It is amazing how someone that scours a Giants website all day desperate to post negative about the teams quarterback can have such a limited knowledge of how football works. The supporting cast does matter, Jones' tenure in NY is still up in the air and nothing you say is a fact, it is completely conjecture from somebody obsessed with hating a player on the team he is supposed to root for!
If you don't like Terps take on Jones, let's read what someone who does know how football works said
Quote:
Remember, year 3 is all about evaluating whether or not Jones will be the long-term answer at quarterback. Part of that includes whether or not he performs well through adversity. Part of that includes how much he can elevate those around him greater than the sum of its parts. He failed here. There are a couple things that can be pointed at, but we must keep things simple. Jones was overmatched mentally and physically. No question.
Scooter he is talking about one game and I could bore everybody and go get the Phil Simms or Dilfer quotes where they gush about him. This all gets us to the point that his tenure is still up in the air.
You're missing the point. Many just threw up their hands and said "well no one can hold it against Jones, every QB in history would have been bad that game" while Sy points out that the Rams game was a test and Jones failed in pretty much every aspect.
Based on what? He's overmatched mentally in this league, I don't care that he went to Duke, it's football IQ and he lacks it. He is fast, he is tall, he seems nice. End of story. He's not a quality NFL QB, 9-23 is all you need to know. Just watch him play, it's usually pretty bad results, we barely score with him playing. This is a wide open NFL and he's playing like it's the 70s. The sooner we move on the better.
Is that there’s a legitimate argument he can’t be fairly evaluated this year. There needs to be an answer on Jones up or down at the end of the year and that won’t happen.
Look at rushing yards per game, Eli’s first 3 seasons he had a top ten rushing game in the league. Jones has had a bottom 3rd rushing game. Defense, Jone’s rookie year dead last, last year was better, but this year bottom 5. Isn’t a single player that results in wins and losses. Coaching Eli had Tom Coughlin, Jones has Clueless Joe. Garrett is no Kilbride either. Neither Coughlin or Kilbride were known to be ultra conservative on Offense.
Used to be fun, but it has become stale and a cumbersome topic.
It is discussed obsessively by rival camps as if their ability to win the point will be the determining factor as to how the Giants handle the quarterback situation going further
I like him, I think he can be very good. However, I will not guarantee that he will be the answer going forward, which is quite different from the absolute certainty with which many have dismissed him.
What I know is this. It would absolutely be the best thing for the Giants if he turned out to be a great player, starting all over again with another young quarterback after a decade of losing is not something I will root for.
I will continue to hope for his and the team s success until they decide they must move on, at which time I will get behind the new guy.
The incessant criticism of Jones, the continued high jacking of threads to make these criticisms, has changed the tenor of this board and not in a good way.
Jones either will or will not prove to be the guy. There really is no need to take every bad play by Jones and every good play by another quarterback to drive home the point that you believe Jones stinks; believe me we know what you think.
Yea that is because you are an Eli basher. 3 years later from moving on from Eli -- we still don't know what we have at QB, and lost a shit ton of games in the process. And will continue to lose more in the forseseable future.
are basically arguing that Eli Manning, in his early 30s, and coming off of an MVP-caliber season, was washed up.
Sorry, not buying it.
What I am buying is that Eli's surrounding talent had gotten so abysmal that he was no longer a winning quarterback.
********
bw... the comparison is NOT about similar skill sets, but about how surrounding talent can impact QB development.
If Daniel Jones was drafted by the Baltimore Ravens, I would wager he would be a winning QB at this point.
Youre out of your head. If Jones was playing for the ravens he's have 2 broken legs by now. Lamar avoids contact; runs out of bounds ; slides. he also seems to "roll with the punches" when he is going to take a hit. He doesn't lower his head and try to ram through 2 linesbackers!
And turnover differences are a big reason the win loss records are so divergent. Jones despite being a far superior athlete lacks the same crispness to go through reads and get the ball out quickly.
Used to be fun, but it has become stale and a cumbersome topic.
It is discussed obsessively by rival camps as if their ability to win the point will be the determining factor as to how the Giants handle the quarterback situation going further
I like him, I think he can be very good. However, I will not guarantee that he will be the answer going forward, which is quite different from the absolute certainty with which many have dismissed him.
What I know is this. It would absolutely be the best thing for the Giants if he turned out to be a great player, starting all over again with another young quarterback after a decade of losing is not something I will root for.
I will continue to hope for his and the team s success until they decide they must move on, at which time I will get behind the new guy.
The incessant criticism of Jones, the continued high jacking of threads to make these criticisms, has changed the tenor of this board and not in a good way.
Jones either will or will not prove to be the guy. There really is no need to take every bad play by Jones and every good play by another quarterback to drive home the point that you believe Jones stinks; believe me we know what you think.
Yea that is because you are an Eli basher. 3 years later from moving on from Eli -- we still don't know what we have at QB, and lost a shit ton of games in the process. And will continue to lose more in the forseseable future.
Eli won a won two Super Bowls with the Giants. During those two play off runs he was magnificent and as clutch as the greatest to ever play the game. During their successful seasons he was always clutch.
The Giants also played a lot of losing football during that era and never won a playoff game for n 13 of the 15 seasons he played.
Those are facts. If you want to classify that as bashing, ok. But I loved rooting for Eli
To be honest I really don’t see how your belief I am an Eli basher relates to my post though
They're not the same, they never were similar prospects whatsoever and people need to stop doing it.
beyond just the raw stats and wins and losses, Jones is just making a lot more mistakes and not seeing the field as well. Eli’s ability to read process and get the ball out efficiently is superior. Jones is not the only problem for why we are 9-23 when he starts but hes not consistently a solution
Used to be fun, but it has become stale and a cumbersome topic.
It is discussed obsessively by rival camps as if their ability to win the point will be the determining factor as to how the Giants handle the quarterback situation going further
I like him, I think he can be very good. However, I will not guarantee that he will be the answer going forward, which is quite different from the absolute certainty with which many have dismissed him.
What I know is this. It would absolutely be the best thing for the Giants if he turned out to be a great player, starting all over again with another young quarterback after a decade of losing is not something I will root for.
I will continue to hope for his and the team s success until they decide they must move on, at which time I will get behind the new guy.
The incessant criticism of Jones, the continued high jacking of threads to make these criticisms, has changed the tenor of this board and not in a good way.
Jones either will or will not prove to be the guy. There really is no need to take every bad play by Jones and every good play by another quarterback to drive home the point that you believe Jones stinks; believe me we know what you think.
Yea that is because you are an Eli basher. 3 years later from moving on from Eli -- we still don't know what we have at QB, and lost a shit ton of games in the process. And will continue to lose more in the forseseable future.
Eli won a won two Super Bowls with the Giants. During those two play off runs he was magnificent and as clutch as the greatest to ever play the game. During their successful seasons he was always clutch.
The Giants also played a lot of losing football during that era and never won a playoff game for n 13 of the 15 seasons he played.
Those are facts. If you want to classify that as bashing, ok. But I loved rooting for Eli
To be honest I really don’t see how your belief I am an Eli basher relates to my post though
The point is people like you want to be vindicated from you "move on from Eli". "geno was just as good" "Eli is the problem". When it is obvious now that none of these things are true -- it is now I am sick of talking abou Jones". When I t should be "I was wrong about Eli".
And this whole thing about Eli's losing seasons. Eli was on worse teams than this. When have we seen anything like Toney here? And OBJ was never that good. Guy played like total shit last night and that was pretty mcuh how I remember Odell here. Lots of drops , not playing particularly well and overrated. When was the last time this place had a legit 1000 yard , 70 million guy like Golladay. When Eli was playing he had an overpriced Shep to throw to.
I think Jones is overmatched out there right now, and the supporting case isn't helping matters either. The problem is, as Terps and others have pointed out, the performances put forth by Jones look a lot like his Duke performances. I don't think he is the QB the brass believed he is, and that's what we're seeing on a weekly basis. You get a good one from time to time, but on the whole he's really ordinary at best.
I'm concerned the brass will use injuries to justify bringing back many of the same characters in 2022. That and the cap situation paint a bleak picture for the next 1-2 seasons. And, the ownership penchant for half measures on changes, well ... I've gotten used to losing.
This is not hard guys. Jones is a good/solid QB if he has solid protection/weapons. Note that I didn't say GREAT protection/weapons; just a reasonable level of both. But due to poor roster management and an unbelievable amount of teammate injuries of his career, the Giants continue to set him up for failure.
But there are plenty of quarterbacks who are solid with good protection and good weapons. When you pick a QB 6th overall, you are hoping and expecting more than that. He needs to elevate others play and help you win games.
I'm not out on Jones, but he is yet to prove that now in his 3rd year.
Had a much better OL. He had Barber in his prime, Jones has Barkley who's always hurt and maybe not as good even when healthy. Eli had Shockey, Jones has Engram. Eli probably had Burress for some of those games too. Not a fair comparison at all.
1. Eli had a better supporting cast than Jones
2. Jones is not as good as Eli was and hasn't shown enough to suggest he might be
3. Our standard for a high 1st round pick QB should be much higher than either Eli's or Jones' first 3 years in the league
What he does well on a small sample size is tight window throws down the field.
*****Small sample sizes can be misleading****
Everyone can point to some beautiful throws DJ has made, and they wonder, if he just had a better OL he could do that all of time.
That is not necessarily true.
He MIGHT be able to do that more.
He is terrible at throwing TDs inside the 20. This is not a small sample size.
Subjectively, if Jones had a legit supporting cast he might be a better QB. Acting like that is a forgone conclusion is the mistake many of you are making.
Do you see the flaw using the word “objective “ and immediately follow it up by stating an opinion as fact?
Used to be fun, but it has become stale and a cumbersome topic.
It is discussed obsessively by rival camps as if their ability to win the point will be the determining factor as to how the Giants handle the quarterback situation going further
I like him, I think he can be very good. However, I will not guarantee that he will be the answer going forward, which is quite different from the absolute certainty with which many have dismissed him.
What I know is this. It would absolutely be the best thing for the Giants if he turned out to be a great player, starting all over again with another young quarterback after a decade of losing is not something I will root for.
I will continue to hope for his and the team s success until they decide they must move on, at which time I will get behind the new guy.
The incessant criticism of Jones, the continued high jacking of threads to make these criticisms, has changed the tenor of this board and not in a good way.
Jones either will or will not prove to be the guy. There really is no need to take every bad play by Jones and every good play by another quarterback to drive home the point that you believe Jones stinks; believe me we know what you think.
Yea that is because you are an Eli basher. 3 years later from moving on from Eli -- we still don't know what we have at QB, and lost a shit ton of games in the process. And will continue to lose more in the forseseable future.
Eli won a won two Super Bowls with the Giants. During those two play off runs he was magnificent and as clutch as the greatest to ever play the game. During their successful seasons he was always clutch.
The Giants also played a lot of losing football during that era and never won a playoff game for n 13 of the 15 seasons he played.
Those are facts. If you want to classify that as bashing, ok. But I loved rooting for Eli
To be honest I really don’t see how your belief I am an Eli basher relates to my post though
The point is people like you want to be vindicated from you "move on from Eli". "geno was just as good" "Eli is the problem". When it is obvious now that none of these things are true -- it is now I am sick of talking abou Jones". When I t should be "I was wrong about Eli".
And this whole thing about Eli's losing seasons. Eli was on worse teams than this. When have we seen anything like Toney here? And OBJ was never that good. Guy played like total shit last night and that was pretty mcuh how I remember Odell here. Lots of drops , not playing particularly well and overrated. When was the last time this place had a legit 1000 yard , 70 million guy like Golladay. When Eli was playing he had an overpriced Shep to throw to.
I don’t want to be vindicated from my stance on moving on from Eli, I believe I was correct
But your take on the subject lends some credence to the idea that some of the Jones bashing could be because he replaced Eli, I get that.
and they were vastly different prospects. Eli was taken #1 overall for a reason. Jones was never even in the conversation.
People make this argument and then complain about us not taking Josh Allen, Josh Allen was not seen by many as a 1st overall prospect either.
Forget even the pre-draft perception. Eli Manning was vastly, vastly better in college. More skilled, more productive, more results at the highest levels of college ball. Was easy to predict would be a professional QB. Josh Allen was not. Jones was not.
But your take on the subject lends some credence to the idea that some of the Jones bashing could be because he replaced Eli, I get that.
Yup keep digging in there. maybe when another 3 years pass we'll know who is right. But by then who care ? Enough time has passed....
One thing we know for sure is that we have nothing special in Jones, or Judge. That we know. Otherwise we would have seen something by now. Instead this season is pretty much shaping up like last season.
I don’t want to be vindicated from my stance on moving on from Eli, I believe I was correct
But your take on the subject lends some credence to the idea that some of the Jones bashing could be because he replaced Eli, I get that.
How are you correct anyway? How are you OK with what you are seeing on the field ; 3 years and counting?
Teams like the Colts or even the Giants under better management -- they didn't just move on from QBs and pay them 20 million under contract and pick a QB for the sake a GM making his mark and putting his big, dumb bloated ego ahead of the team.
THey moved on when they had a draft heavy QB class. Or they moved on from Peyton when they had a shot at drafting a prospect like Andrew Luck.
I don’t want to be vindicated from my stance on moving on from Eli, I believe I was correct
But your take on the subject lends some credence to the idea that some of the Jones bashing could be because he replaced Eli, I get that.
How are you correct anyway? How are you OK with what you are seeing on the field ; 3 years and counting?
Teams like the Colts or even the Giants under better management -- they didn't just move on from QBs and pay them 20 million under contract and pick a QB for the sake a GM making his mark and putting his big, dumb bloated ego ahead of the team.
THey moved on when they had a draft heavy QB class. Or they moved on from Peyton when they had a shot at drafting a prospect like Andrew Luck.
It was obvious to me that the Giants were no longer going to win with Eli, time to move on. Maybe they picked the wrong guy because they waited a year too long to move on, thereby passing on Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen.
Guess I m being dense but I don’t see how the losing since El left is a vindication they should have kept Him, his last 3 seasons showed they could lose plenty with him
The year Jones was drafted. He was the only QB that I did not want. I wanted someone with more pedigree, that had played more games against top competition. Someone that won more. Daniel Jones was drafted based on subjective analysis that with better players he would have better results. Another way to say this is that excuses were made for his subpar performances. It was blamed on the talent around him.
He won me over in his first professional game. So much pressure, replacing Eli and he killed it. His rookie year left me with confidence that it would probably be his worst year and he would get better. The talent around him wasn't great, the OL was piss poor and there were plenty of injuries. If felt reasonable to believe that he would get better. The turnovers did nag at me. His pocket awareness was concerning considering the amount of college starts.
His second year was far far far worse than I could have believed possible. I made many excuses for him because believing Jones is not the answer sets the franchise back at least 2 years from competing. It was reasonable to say new, coach, bad OL, new OC blah blah blah. I thought he was going to have a great 2021. Why? They got him a legit downfield threat in Golloday and a shifty guy in Toney. Jones was very accurate on tight window throws down the field. It seemed like a perfect match. There was a tiny problem with banking on that. He didn't throw down the field much. I was placing my belief on a very small sample size. I should have known better, but I wanted to believe Jones was the answer.
I don't need to recount 2021, it should be fresh in everyone's mind. Better stats, still not enough points. OK, he makes some pretty throws, he looks legit. I recently dug into his red zone performances over 3 years, even his rookie year that I liked, it was awful. There is a decent sample size of his red zone performance. I included reference in an earlier post in this thread. It is consistently bad over 3 years, bottom of the league.
In his last six years starting in college and the NFL he still has the same issues. We continue to be subjective in our analysis of him. He deserves all of 2021, but if he doesn't make it undeniable that he has the goods, we should move on. There is enormous amount objective evidence on Jones, I think we should lean more on that than the subjective.
When I look back on my entire outlook on Jones I feel that I was correct in my initial assessment. I changed my mind after his first game because I desperately wanted to believe Jones was the answer because I was so tired of losing. Jones too often seems overwhelmed by the game. I don't think he will be more than an average QB.
I don’t want to be vindicated from my stance on moving on from Eli, I believe I was correct
But your take on the subject lends some credence to the idea that some of the Jones bashing could be because he replaced Eli, I get that.
How are you correct anyway? How are you OK with what you are seeing on the field ; 3 years and counting?
Teams like the Colts or even the Giants under better management -- they didn't just move on from QBs and pay them 20 million under contract and pick a QB for the sake a GM making his mark and putting his big, dumb bloated ego ahead of the team.
THey moved on when they had a draft heavy QB class. Or they moved on from Peyton when they had a shot at drafting a prospect like Andrew Luck.
It was obvious to me that the Giants were no longer going to win with Eli, time to move on. Maybe they picked the wrong guy because they waited a year too long to move on, thereby passing on Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen.
Guess I m being dense but I don’t see how the losing since El left is a vindication they should have kept Him, his last 3 seasons showed they could lose plenty with him
They didn’t “pass” on anybody on account of Eli. There is 0 evidence to suggest they drafted Barkley to “help” Eli. What have you seen from Gettleman to suggest that he wasn’t just drafting the best player in his mind anyway at the given draft slot? Also there was a way to move on from Eli and there wasn’t.
Cutting Eli in off season yes especially after drafting a josh Allen. Or keep him till week 10 if the season is hopeless bench him and put in allen. And what is the point of moving on from Eli for Daniel jones? You might as well have drafted quinton Nelson and free agent sign w Eli in win now mode
Jones had more total offensive yards, but Trubisky had fewer turnovers - their respective win-loss records would seem to be a natural result of that difference.
I'm not going to sit here and say DJ is absolutely terrible
He isn't. He has good and bad qualities and he is worthy of being a starter in the NFL and getting this chance he's getting. That said-- the thing I look at is him vs. his contemporaries. What "could've been." The Giants had the #2, #6 & #17, #4, and #11 picks in 2018-2021 under DG's tenure. DG chose to draft a QB in what has proven to be the weakest QB class out of all 4 of those years (aside from Kyler but he went #1), and not only that-- everyone knew he reached for Jones at #6. Hence-- the result we have seen is a guy who is decent, not great, which is exactly what you expect from a guy you reached for at #6 in a weak QB class. It seemed very obvious that DG drafted a QB because the time was right, not the player, which I don't think you should ever do. He felt obligated to take a QB at that point and hence it felt like he forced the pick. But you look at the QBs he's passed on the last 4 years and that's the measure that I'm going by to say: DG + DJ so far looks like a failed experiment RELATIVELY-speaking.
Not saying it's over though. The clock is ticking for him to improve and start winning games. Yeah he doesn't have a great team around him, but let's not act like he's playing flawless football and then the team is collapsing around him. He's done some God-awful things at times that have cost us ball games. Also, he's incredibly suspect in the red zone which is the part of the field where you win games. In part it's clearly because he's slow to process information and everything becomes more condensed and quicker in the red zone. If you can't score in the red zone you won't win games, and so far in DJ's career he's been a massive disappointment in the red zone.
DJ can't stay healthy and can't win more than 5 games into year 3...
Eli's career is one of a kind in many ways.
So what's the point?
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
The eras weren't that different.
And Eli had a vastly superior team (offense and defense) and coaching staff around him. But his detractors will never admit to that.
Those who say the Eli comparisons are not legit also amusingly ignore the fact that Eli was a losing quarterback (well under .500) during the second half of his career because he had the same surrounding talent issues that Daniel Jones now has.
DJ has also improved year 3 vs year 1.
Eli also had a lot of elements making it easier for him to perform -- better WRs, better RBs, and better RBs -- by a long stretch. He also had the same coach and system for the first three years. So while DJ benefits from playing in a league that makes it easier to pass, let's not act like almost every other variable weighs heavily in favor of Eli being able to succeed.
The NFC East had two HOF coaches with a most likely third (AR with a Jim Johnson defense) in it and the NFC East was a much better division then.
I think Eli showed enough outstanding moments to just hope he would eventually eliminate some truly frustrating game(s). As we learned he would always maintain some low moments but...you learned to deal with it.
Eli also took every snap injured or not.
Do you ever say to yourself, "Boy, I can see Jones winning multiple big games in a row?" which is what it will take if you want a 5th trophy.
49 TDs / 23 INTs
717 yards rushing 7 TDs
20 fumbles, 11 lost
49 TDs / 23 INTs
717 yards rushing 7 TDs
20 fumbles, 11 lost
Finding quarterbacks that were better than Eli was statistically in his early career is not all that hard. It's a near worthless predictor of future success.
You might want to revisit Eli's win-loss record in his last few years here.
Again, I'm not saying Daniel Jones is the answer or not, but half of the Giants fan base was still demanding the Giants dump Eli in 2007, four years into his career.
I was off the Eli bandwagon after the Vikings game in his 4th season in '07. Eli also led the league in INTs in 2007.
Somehow the lightbulb flashed and he ascended to another level during the playoff run that year and the years after.
I get it, it's an easy comparison to make. But I just don't think it's very helpful to compare any young QB to Eli because he had a very unique trajectory and overall career. You can't count on Jones or a struggling young QB to have that kind of trajectory.
700 yards rushing, 5 Tds
36 Tds / 22 Ints
17 fumbles, 7 lost
W/L 18-14
The NFC East had two HOF coaches with a most likely third (AR with a Jim Johnson defense) in it and the NFC East was a much better division then.
I think Eli showed enough outstanding moments to just hope he would eventually eliminate some truly frustrating game(s). As we learned he would always maintain some low moments but...you learned to deal with it.
Eli also took every snap injured or not.
Do you ever say to yourself, "Boy, I can see Jones winning multiple big games in a row?" which is what it will take if you want a 5th trophy.
Was it a "different era" in 2017? 2018? 2019?
If not, then your argument holds no water.
I love Eli. We all do. But we love most his magical playoff runs and his ability to stay on the field. DJ doesn't have that yet. DJ stats are comparable to Eli Manning's regular season stats, which were about middle of the pack during his time here. Eli's legend was really born in the postseason, something DJ's Giants haven't done yet.
51 TD's/41 INT's
782 yds rushing, 2 TD's
22 fumbles/7 lost
113 sacks!!!
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The changed in rules on the defensive side had not happened yet as well as the protections of QB's in the pocket.
The NFC East had two HOF coaches with a most likely third (AR with a Jim Johnson defense) in it and the NFC East was a much better division then.
I think Eli showed enough outstanding moments to just hope he would eventually eliminate some truly frustrating game(s). As we learned he would always maintain some low moments but...you learned to deal with it.
Eli also took every snap injured or not.
Do you ever say to yourself, "Boy, I can see Jones winning multiple big games in a row?" which is what it will take if you want a 5th trophy.
Was it a "different era" in 2017? 2018? 2019?
If not, then your argument holds no water.
Why are you ignoring the age difference though? Eli was 36-38 in those years usually way past a QB's prime. Jones on the other hand is 14 years younger beginning his stretch.
I was off the Eli bandwagon after the Vikings game in his 4th season in '07. Eli also led the league in INTs in 2007.
Somehow the lightbulb flashed and he ascended to another level during the playoff run that year and the years after.
I get it, it's an easy comparison to make. But I just don't think it's very helpful to compare any young QB to Eli because he had a very unique trajectory and overall career. You can't count on Jones or a struggling young QB to have that kind of trajectory.
I don't believe it's as much of a comparison as it is an example of how things can "click" and that not every QB is great right out of the gate or even within the first couple seasons.
The W/L records are similarly futile. What these discussions should make obvious is that the team surrounding your QB makes a difference. A crappy OL leads to losses.
The Giants ruined the beginning of DJ's career much like the end of ELi's.
The only way forward is to start over "for real" this time.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
The eras weren't that different.
And Eli had a vastly superior team (offense and defense) and coaching staff around him. But his detractors will never admit to that.
Those who say the Eli comparisons are not legit also amusingly ignore the fact that Eli was a losing quarterback (well under .500) during the second half of his career because he had the same surrounding talent issues that Daniel Jones now has.
In 5 sentences you concisely gave the best summary of an issue that surfaces daily here on almost every thread. Really well done 👍
I love Eli. We all do. But we love most his magical playoff runs and his ability to stay on the field. DJ doesn't have that yet. DJ stats are comparable to Eli Manning's regular season stats, which were about middle of the pack during his time here. Eli's legend was really born in the postseason, something DJ's Giants haven't done yet.
The fact you can win with good, not great, QB is what the takeaway should be.
I guess if you do, you have an argument.
But from my eyes, I saw yet another quarterback with a shitty offensive line and defense around him.
What about 2012-2015 then? Was Eli washed up then too?
A couple of weeks ago Daniel wins "NFC Player of the Week" (second or third time he's won it) and his supporters are yelling "See, I told you he's a good one!"
Now he's coming off a 4-turnover game and his detractors are yelling, "See, I told you he's a bad one!"
It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
I wish it were that simple...I don't think it is.
2004 League Average Passing Stats: 3368 yards, 23 TD, 17 INT, 6.1 YPP
2005 League Average Passing Stats: 3255 yards, 20 TD, 15 INT, 5.9 YPP
2005 League Average Passing Stats: 3276 yards, 20 TD, 16 INT, 6.0 YPP
2019 League Average Passing Stats: 3759 yards, 25 TD, 13 INT, 6.3 YPP
2020 League Average Passing Stats: 3842 yards, 27 TD, 12 INT, 6.4 YPP
2021 League Average Passing Stats (Annualized): 3952 yards, 27 TD, 13 INT, 6.6 YPP
It's much easier to throw the ball now. Eli definitely had a better supporting cast, but the start of his career was in an era in which it was much harder to throw.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
Along those same lines, who won the election?
I guess if you do, you have an argument.
But from my eyes, I saw yet another quarterback with a shitty offensive line and defense around him.
What about 2012-2015 then? Was Eli washed up then too?
I do think Eli was pretty washed up by then. Don't get me wrong the team around him didn't help and probably caused him to diminish a little quicker than he might have otherwise.
Definitely not as much in those later years but he was still getting into hid mid 30s at that time.
I don't think Jones is as bad as a lot make him out to be but when you take a QB #6 you have to elevate the offense around you and I just don't see it that often from Jones. Even before the 1st SB when ELi had a lot of stinkers he also threw in those games that he put the team on his back and got them a W. Jones has not done it once from what I recall except for maybe that first career game against TB!
There's just too many factors to directly compare then so I don't know what point the OP was trying to make but it holds no water.
Why are so many attached to Jones? I don’t get it. Shouldn’t our standards be higher?
Agree 100%. If they love a Corral or a Willis, go for it. Jones shouldn't hold them back. But if you don't love one of them, they are ok with Jones.
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there are pros and cons to Daniel Jones.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
Along those same lines, who won the election?
WTF does this have to do with politics?
What I do remember about his first three years is he made many "wow" throws. Not talking about the deep balls (which he excelled at) but the intermediate deep balls based on anticipation and arm talent. Those type of throws eventually won SB's. Plax/Nicks back shoulder throws.
DB's were still allowed to hit. Remember ESPN's "jacked up' segment? Pollian successfully lobbied to change the DB's restrictions. Tom Brady's injury meant low hits were not tolerated. Eli and even more so the real old timers would have loved sitting in these pockets where rushers have to be overly concerned with roughing calls. The game is now totally geared to assisting the passing game.
If running is going to be a part of his game so be it. There is no doubt the organization has not provided him as well as he could. I just don't see a QB you invest a second contract with what he has shown. I would be willing to take that chance he stars elsewhere.
What I do remember about his first three years is he made many "wow" throws. Not talking about the deep balls (which he excelled at) but the intermediate deep balls based on anticipation and arm talent. Those type of throws eventually won SB's. Plax/Nicks back shoulder throws.
DB's were still allowed to hit. Remember ESPN's "jacked up' segment? Pollian successfully lobbied to change the DB's restrictions. Tom Brady's injury meant low hits were not tolerated. Eli and even more so the real old timers would have loved sitting in these pockets where rushers have to be overly concerned with roughing calls. The game is now totally geared to assisting the passing game.
If running is going to be a part of his game so be it. There is no doubt the organization has not provided him as well as he could. I just don't see a QB you invest a second contract with what he has shown. I would be willing to take that chance he stars elsewhere.
What is your plan for replacing him and when? You are OK with using a few #1 draft picks to replace him?
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a quarterback that compares to Eli anyway? The Giants were only ever really dominant for a full season once during his tenure here. What separates Eli from other past Giants QB's was his ability to stay healthy and his magic in the playoffs. He was really only a top 5 QB one season.
I love Eli. We all do. But we love most his magical playoff runs and his ability to stay on the field. DJ doesn't have that yet. DJ stats are comparable to Eli Manning's regular season stats, which were about middle of the pack during his time here. Eli's legend was really born in the postseason, something DJ's Giants haven't done yet.
The fact you can win with good, not great, QB is what the takeaway should be.
But should this be the bar for the Giants? Why not always be trying to get better at the most key position in sports?
Taylor Heinicke has been a better qb this year than Daniel Jones, statistically and in the W/L column. Does anyone consider Taylor Heinicke the long term answer for WFT? If not, I am not sure how you confidently say a qb like Jones is the answer for the NYG.
On the flipside with Jones, his "lows" have never been as low as Eli during his first 2+ years as a starter. He has gotten injured multiple times. He clearly does not have the same talent as Eli had, but clearly he has shown that he can be a really good quarterback. He was actually way better out of the gate and seemed to have a better feel for the position of NFL quarterback than Eli had during his first year. But - in large point - the team has absolutely sucked around him. Who has he had at receiver before this season? Who has been his stalwart at LT before this season?
Eli had one of the best offensive lines in football, arguably the best, during a 3-4 year stretch (2006-2010) and that matters.
Use the eye test. When watching games, do you think Daniel Jones can lead the Giants to a championship one day with the way he plays. Because it's not just the quarterback that does everything for you. When the Giants won the Super Bowl in 2008, the defense held one of the best teams in NFL history to 14 points.
Great point here.
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Taylor Heinicke has been a better qb this year than Daniel Jones, statistically and in the W/L column. Does anyone consider Taylor Heinicke the long term answer for WFT? If not, I am not sure how you confidently say a qb like Jones is the answer for the NYG.
Great point here.
Totally agreed.
I guess if you do, you have an argument.
But from my eyes, I saw yet another quarterback with a shitty offensive line and defense around him.
What about 2012-2015 then? Was Eli washed up then too?
He was washed up in 2017 and 2018. And it really started in 2016. It’s ok to admit this now.
Not to mention Eli had a better arm and was actually good in college.
Taylor Heinicke has been a better qb this year than Daniel Jones, statistically and in the W/L column. Does anyone consider Taylor Heinicke the long term answer for WFT? If not, I am not sure how you confidently say a qb like Jones is the answer for the NYG.
Logic.
And they are desperate for Jones to be Eli.
Yet, the two players have NOTHING in common as QBs. Two different skill sets.
Just bizarre...
Look for a QB in the next two drafts. I have posted about the value of a QB being on a rookie contract who have won SB's and how hard it is for teams with QB's on a second contract winning Super Bowls. They truly have to be "elite".
I think a team in the upper tier on both the OL and front 7 with a sound secondary and WR's can win in this league with a "good/very good" rookie QB. Good consistent drafting gives you a good opportunity and the rookie QB salary allows for having quality depth imo.
My reasoning in not all about Jones. It is that we seem so far away still and his contract clock is coming up.
Again, as I stated in the thread at the top of the page, the biggest issue right now is with our GM and possibly coach as I am 100% done with the GM and not really sure what we have in the Coach. DJ is an issue in that I am not sure what you do with him. Contract wise and cap wise we may be stuck with him regardless in 2022. BUt, I am not against drafting a QB if the NEW GM wants one.
Right now we need to get thge OLINE rebuilt and we need our LT (not left Tackle) our TJ watt, our Michael Strahan etc., our guy who can make a game change with one play, one possession by disrupting what an offense does.
We must build our team around the Oline on Offense and a stud pass rushing, offense disrupting player at EDge/LB'er...
Again, as I stated in the thread at the top of the page, the biggest issue right now is with our GM and possibly coach as I am 100% done with the GM and not really sure what we have in the Coach. DJ is an issue in that I am not sure what you do with him. Contract wise and cap wise we may be stuck with him regardless in 2022. BUt, I am not against drafting a QB if the NEW GM wants one.
Right now we need to get thge OLINE rebuilt and we need our LT (not left Tackle) our TJ watt, our Michael Strahan etc., our guy who can make a game change with one play, one possession by disrupting what an offense does.
We must build our team around the Oline on Offense and a stud pass rushing, offense disrupting player at EDge/LB'er...
Good post and I commend you for being able to change your stance. Too many folks on either side of an argument stay with their heels dug in these days.
However, a successful franchise does not aspire to move heaven and earth to acquire the #1 pick, to then use it on an above average QB and hope he will pull miraculous victories out of his ass.
I'm so amazingly happy that it happened, believe me, but to use that as the benchmark for what good looks like makes no sense.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
Applies to practically everything.
In regards to Jones I am the poster child for this.
I have been all over the place on Jones.
I am now firmly.
I don't know.
The Rams game was awful for Jones but admittedly no QB in history would have won that game in those circumstances, with that roster, against that team.
Also, it has become evident over many games that Daniel Jones sucks in the red zone. He might not process fast enough for that tighter environment.
He did not throw many TDs at Duke.
He has not won with consistency in his football life.
He didn't win at Duke because of talent.
He isn't winning in New York because of talent.
Are we sure?
He isn't elevating anyone, that's for sure.
The only thing I think I can say with some certainty is that he isn't a great one.
It would have presented itself by now.
Look for a QB in the next two drafts. I have posted about the value of a QB being on a rookie contract who have won SB's and how hard it is for teams with QB's on a second contract winning Super Bowls. They truly have to be "elite".
I think a team in the upper tier on both the OL and front 7 with a sound secondary and WR's can win in this league with a "good/very good" rookie QB. Good consistent drafting gives you a good opportunity and the rookie QB salary allows for having quality depth imo.
My reasoning in not all about Jones. It is that we seem so far away still and his contract clock is coming up.
I'd get the trenches sorted and then worry about QB. I don't draft a replacement until you have the OL set.
Jones is just not savvy. He is more athletic and runs faster. But he is just not a savvy runner either and I don't think you are gong to see much of him running any more anyway. Can you argue that this bad team makes him look bad possible? But I just find it hard to believe that playing on a bad team is what makes him timid about throwing into tight windows and in the red zone. Also he just can't go through reads he bird dogs receivers and it leads to picks.
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argument is a good oen for me to be involved in. I have to admit I have been a Jones guy and very supportive of him. I have taken issue with a few posters (Go terps being one specifically) as I feel that the hatred towards DJ had become just so great that any stat that went against their opinion was ignored, any issue that is give n credence to say (Jackson, Herbert, Rodgers etc) was being completely ignored or even outright discarded when it came to Jones. However, last week I saw DJ do stuff that was absolutely on him- two INTS that were passes that just shouldn't have been thrown at all. That was not good and the lack of scoring with him at QB is becoming a bit alarming. These inside the 10 stall outs are now not just due to poor play elsewhere but seem to be on Jones inability to make those tight quarter throws and quick decisions. Add to that the amount of losing (both now and when he was in college) becomes a MASSIVE concern as at what point does that become common place to him and make it so that you just can't envision him with a winning record.
Again, as I stated in the thread at the top of the page, the biggest issue right now is with our GM and possibly coach as I am 100% done with the GM and not really sure what we have in the Coach. DJ is an issue in that I am not sure what you do with him. Contract wise and cap wise we may be stuck with him regardless in 2022. BUt, I am not against drafting a QB if the NEW GM wants one.
Right now we need to get thge OLINE rebuilt and we need our LT (not left Tackle) our TJ watt, our Michael Strahan etc., our guy who can make a game change with one play, one possession by disrupting what an offense does.
We must build our team around the Oline on Offense and a stud pass rushing, offense disrupting player at EDge/LB'er...
Good post and I commend you for being able to change your stance. Too many folks on either side of an argument stay with their heels dug in these days.
whatever the reason, you can't win with that kind of abysmal production. it's embarrassingly poor. it's year three and the game has yet to "slow down" for jones. eli was brilliant at the LoS and changing in and out of plays. jones, notsomuch.
jones is currently the worst quarterback in the division. considering where he was drafted, that is alarming.
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guess not.
You might want to revisit Eli's win-loss record in his last few years here.
Again, I'm not saying Daniel Jones is the answer or not, but half of the Giants fan base was still demanding the Giants dump Eli in 2007, four years into his career.
Eli was past his prime at that point. It's crazy to make a prognosis on DJ based on Eli last few years in the league.
A couple of weeks ago Daniel wins "NFC Player of the Week" (second or third time he's won it) and his supporters are yelling "See, I told you he's a good one!"
Now he's coming off a 4-turnover game and his detractors are yelling, "See, I told you he's a bad one!"
It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
Great post Eric.
The longer I live the more I realize that fandom is fickle.
I had a woman at the convenience store say to me " Man are you brave for wearing that Giants shirt ". I told her, " I have been a Giants fan for 45 years and got the opportunity to watch them win the Super Bowl with my son. The losing sucks but when they get good again it will be very sweet."
The Giants are not very good, part of that is because Jones is still growing as a NFL QB. The game he had vs. New Orleans was outstanding and could be a more normal occasion if we had a higher quality O Line and our record would be better if we had more big plays and a pass rush on defense.
The NFL is much different than the days of Phil Simms. He didn't become a very good player until 1984, his 6th year. Nobody has the patience for a QB to mature and grow, results are needed quicker, which also results in dumping a QB before his second contract. Shit, the Dolphins may we giving up on Tua already. Honesty, it makes me not like the NFL that much.
I tend to believe that if the franchise can get a viable O Line, and a pass rusher that is a dominant player, they could turn things around.
Jones seems to have a good set of skills and a strong enough arm and work ethic to have success. Jones can be part of the solution.
I've made the same point before. Eli had a very unusual career path which makes him an unlikely comp for almost anyone else.
Sorry, not buying it.
What I am buying is that Eli's surrounding talent had gotten so abysmal that he was no longer a winning quarterback.
********
bw... the comparison is NOT about similar skill sets, but about how surrounding talent can impact QB development.
If Daniel Jones was drafted by the Baltimore Ravens, I would wager he would be a winning QB at this point.
His best case scenario is probably similar to Kirk Cousins. Can put up pretty stats under the right circumstances, but not an elite player in any way, and ultimately not a guy who's likely to start for a real contender.
This thing where posters have to emasculate themselves in order to defend their stance on Jones is getting really ridiculous. You either like him a lot, you hate him, or you're willing to wait it out.
The only recent team that really didn't do this was the Cardinals, as it was extremely apparent basically right away that Rosen didn't have any type of NFL leadership abilities.
Both started a significant number of games as rookies, both have had multiple head coaches and offensive coordinators, both played into their senior years in college, both were viewed (in some corners) risky lottery picks, both are big and athletic.
One is now a top 10 QB. One isn't close.
My point is that saying Daniel Jones' numbers are only slightly worse than Eli's were through this time in his career is not proving the point you think it is because Eli was teetering on the edge of being a failed player before he got his act together just in time.
Although, in Eli's defense, I will note that he had already showed an incredible nack for playing his best at critical moments of games and driving the team down the filed when he absolutely had to. The team was much better, no question, but Eli won some games for them early in his career (a game against Denver at home comes to mind, he also drove them down the field for a late game tying score in Philly in the wildcard game in 2006 before the defense gave it up at the very end). Jones has shown absolutely zero of that.
Both started a significant number of games as rookies, both have had multiple head coaches and offensive coordinators, both played into their senior years in college, both were viewed (in some corners) risky lottery picks, both are big and athletic.
One is now a top 10 QB. One isn't close.
One had Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Hunter Henry and a coach who had been with his team a few years (plus a decent defense).. JOnes has been on a team with SS (injured), Golden tate (done done), SB (can't stay healthy), no Oline and a TE who epitomizes the state of this organization..
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Justin Herbert, the 6th pick in the 2020 draft. Jones was the 6th pick in the proceeding draft.
Both started a significant number of games as rookies, both have had multiple head coaches and offensive coordinators, both played into their senior years in college, both were viewed (in some corners) risky lottery picks, both are big and athletic.
One is now a top 10 QB. One isn't close.
One had Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Hunter Henry and a coach who had been with his team a few years (plus a decent defense).. JOnes has been on a team with SS (injured), Golden tate (done done), SB (can't stay healthy), no Oline and a TE who epitomizes the state of this organization..
Again, I am no longer sold on Jones but when you ignore obvious pieces just to further your opinion on Jones it loses credibility.
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Justin Herbert, the 6th pick in the 2020 draft. Jones was the 6th pick in the proceeding draft.
Both started a significant number of games as rookies, both have had multiple head coaches and offensive coordinators, both played into their senior years in college, both were viewed (in some corners) risky lottery picks, both are big and athletic.
One is now a top 10 QB. One isn't close.
One had Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Hunter Henry and a coach who had been with his team a few years (plus a decent defense).. JOnes has been on a team with SS (injured), Golden tate (done done), SB (can't stay healthy), no Oline and a TE who epitomizes the state of this organization..
Uh, Herbert had one of the worst OLs in football last year in terms of allowing pressure. Yet, despite that, Herbert was the best QB in the league - by QBR - in dealing with that pressure. So that's merely a better set of receivers? This year his blind side is being protected by a rookie LT.
Herbert is on his second HC and second OC. So I don't understand your coaching point...
A couple of weeks ago Daniel wins "NFC Player of the Week" (second or third time he's won it) and his supporters are yelling "See, I told you he's a good one!"
Now he's coming off a 4-turnover game and his detractors are yelling, "See, I told you he's a bad one!"
It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
Our fanbase is horrible and it was horrible when we were winning Superbowls with Eli. Our fans are a bunch of whiny, entitled bitches and literally 90% of the whining is pure "in the moment, emotional" garnage that isn't even well thought-out.
Have we seen enough subtle signs from Jones that we can expect him to do some of these things (most likely he will have to do something very special) somewhere down the road?
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In comment 15423943 Keaton028 said:
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a quarterback that compares to Eli anyway? The Giants were only ever really dominant for a full season once during his tenure here. What separates Eli from other past Giants QB's was his ability to stay healthy and his magic in the playoffs. He was really only a top 5 QB one season.
I love Eli. We all do. But we love most his magical playoff runs and his ability to stay on the field. DJ doesn't have that yet. DJ stats are comparable to Eli Manning's regular season stats, which were about middle of the pack during his time here. Eli's legend was really born in the postseason, something DJ's Giants haven't done yet.
The fact you can win with good, not great, QB is what the takeaway should be.
But should this be the bar for the Giants? Why not always be trying to get better at the most key position in sports?
Who said we don't want him to get better? But every week.... he's great, no he sucks... Oh he fumbled let's draft a QB. Wait, NFC Player Of The Week... I love me some DJ. Just stop.... bunch of bandwagon fools.
Taylor Heinicke has been a better qb this year than Daniel Jones, statistically and in the W/L column. Does anyone consider Taylor Heinicke the long term answer for WFT? If not, I am not sure how you confidently say a qb like Jones is the answer for the NYG.
It can be that but you nor I know it because the guy hasn't lined up for one snap in his career with an even AVERAGE offensive line...
Jones is just not savvy. He is more athletic and runs faster. But he is just not a savvy runner either and I don't think you are gong to see much of him running any more anyway. Can you argue that this bad team makes him look bad possible? But I just find it hard to believe that playing on a bad team is what makes him timid about throwing into tight windows and in the red zone. Also he just can't go through reads he bird dogs receivers and it leads to picks.
Ah... so even statistical proof doesn't work for you. AND you have a horrible memory. Eli was mind-bogglingly bad at times in his first 4 years. Remember the home game vs Minnesota? THREE pick 6s and 4 Ints... people were calling for his head and he won a Superbowl 12 weeks later.
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Jones is a below average qb on a bad team? Is it so wrong to say that both are true? Jones isn't the worst starting qb in the league and he isn't in the top starting half of the league in terms of qbs. In his last 19 starts (not 20 because of the Cowboys) he's thrown 15td passes and has lead a minimally productive offense. Some of that - not all - is attributable to his largely below average play.
Taylor Heinicke has been a better qb this year than Daniel Jones, statistically and in the W/L column. Does anyone consider Taylor Heinicke the long term answer for WFT? If not, I am not sure how you confidently say a qb like Jones is the answer for the NYG.
It can be that but you nor I know it because the guy hasn't lined up for one snap in his career with an even AVERAGE offensive line...
So you hate us terrible Giants fans, yet you waste your time interacting with us on a Giants message board? And, we are terrible because we want to see a product be something more than mediocre to bad? Cool.
I guess if you do, you have an argument.
But from my eyes, I saw yet another quarterback with a shitty offensive line and defense around him.
What about 2012-2015 then? Was Eli washed up then too?
2017-18: yes, I thought Eli was washed up. I thought he played pretty badly in the 2017 regular season, had a good playoff game, and then was basically a replacement level player afterwards.
During that 2017-19 period, two players replaced him in the starting lineup. Geno Smith played about the same level as Eli v the Raiders. A rookie Daniel Jones was distinctly more exciting, just a more productive player.
Those A/B switches support the point the Eli was basically done after the Packers wild card game.
i can buy that cousins is an average-to-good NFL quarterback.
since cousins been a starter, he's thrown an average of 29 passing TDs a season over his six seasons (and has 13 passing TDs so far this season).
jones had 11 TD passes last year and has four this year through six games.
jones is a long, long way from kirk cousins level production (kirk cousins was also a 4th round draft pick).
under judge and garrett, jones has been a marginal player who cannot put points on the board.
even in that dreadful 2017 season where eli was benched for geno smith, and with beckham, brandon marshall, pugh, fluker, and richburg all on IR, and with engram and shepard missing half the season with injuries, a supposedly "washed" eli threw 19 TD passes under slickback mac.
jones needs to do a hell of a lot better. outside of some 4th quarter/OT heroics in the saints game, he's shown nothing in his time under judge/garrett.
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because I do think people aren't really thinking anymore but just picking sides is this:
A couple of weeks ago Daniel wins "NFC Player of the Week" (second or third time he's won it) and his supporters are yelling "See, I told you he's a good one!"
Now he's coming off a 4-turnover game and his detractors are yelling, "See, I told you he's a bad one!"
It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
Our fanbase is horrible and it was horrible when we were winning Superbowls with Eli. Our fans are a bunch of whiny, entitled bitches and literally 90% of the whining is pure "in the moment, emotional" garnage that isn't even well thought-out.
How many games has Jones come from behind games had and been a large reason why we won and how many that he failed to score TDs in the red zone or he turned the ball over and was a big part of the reason we lost?
that 05 san diego loss was when i knew eli was the goods. played his ass off that game.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
The eras weren't that different.
And Eli had a vastly superior team (offense and defense) and coaching staff around him. But his detractors will never admit to that.
Those who say the Eli comparisons are not legit also amusingly ignore the fact that Eli was a losing quarterback (well under .500) during the second half of his career because he had the same surrounding talent issues that Daniel Jones now has.
Very true. I haven't made my mind up yet and I'm by far no expert but neither are most on here. The bashing is ridiculous.
I think John Mara would have been ecstatic if Eli could have played in meaningful games in December with playoff hopes alive. Getting in would be gravy. I think this is what he had in mind when Dave took over.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
The eras weren't that different.
And Eli had a vastly superior team (offense and defense) and coaching staff around him. But his detractors will never admit to that.
Those who say the Eli comparisons are not legit also amusingly ignore the fact that Eli was a losing quarterback (well under .500) during the second half of his career because he had the same surrounding talent issues that Daniel Jones now has.
There's an enormous amount of facts and evidence that Jones isn't particularly good. It's been cited here many times: poor stats, low scoring, a terrible record as a starter. General poor performance.
The arguments in his favor stray away from facts and towards conjecture:
- placing blame on the supporting cast
- comparisons to other players in Giants' history
- scenarios where more successful players are swapped with Jones ("You think Lamar Jackson would be as successful if he were on the Giants instead of the Ravens?")
It has not worked out here with Daniel Jones. That is a fact. It is not an opinion.
The issue now is moving forward. Eli was on a 6 year contract and contacts then for QB's were very big relative to the cap.
Giants have to make a decision on Jones and whether or not he is worth the very big contract coming up. So the question is not what he did not have but what do you forecast for him the next 3-4 years. It becomes very hard to build all the pieces when you lay out that contract. So how one answers that is I guess where you stand with Jones.
And who can blame him? He’d worked with gameplanning authorities like Tom Coughlin and Gilbride and now the coach was Ben McAdoo? What? They weren’t winning with McAdoo and Eli knew it.
The issue now is moving forward. Eli was on a 6 year contract and contacts then for QB's were very big relative to the cap.
Giants have to make a decision on Jones and whether or not he is worth the very big contract coming up. So the question is not what he did not have but what do you forecast for him the next 3-4 years. It becomes very hard to build all the pieces when you lay out that contract. So how one answers that is I guess where you stand with Jones.
This.
The Jones debate is basically over.
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there are pros and cons to Daniel Jones.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
The eras weren't that different.
And Eli had a vastly superior team (offense and defense) and coaching staff around him. But his detractors will never admit to that.
Those who say the Eli comparisons are not legit also amusingly ignore the fact that Eli was a losing quarterback (well under .500) during the second half of his career because he had the same surrounding talent issues that Daniel Jones now has.
There's an enormous amount of facts and evidence that Jones isn't particularly good. It's been cited here many times: poor stats, low scoring, a terrible record as a starter. General poor performance.
The arguments in his favor stray away from facts and towards conjecture:
- placing blame on the supporting cast
- comparisons to other players in Giants' history
- scenarios where more successful players are swapped with Jones ("You think Lamar Jackson would be as successful if he were on the Giants instead of the Ravens?")
It has not worked out here with Daniel Jones. That is a fact. It is not an opinion.
You are a national treasure. It is amazing how someone that scours a Giants website all day desperate to post negative about the teams quarterback can have such a limited knowledge of how football works. The supporting cast does matter, Jones' tenure in NY is still up in the air and nothing you say is a fact, it is completely conjecture from somebody obsessed with hating a player on the team he is supposed to root for!
All the others were on a rookie contract or not a highly paid veteran. Wilson, Rogers, Flacco, Wentz/Foles, Mahomes all on rookie contracts. Then you had Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Kurt Warner.
So is Jones in the Eli, Ben or Brady spectrum? Or Wilson, Rogers, Flacco, Wentz, Mahomes spectrum?
And they are desperate for Jones to be Eli.
I would be willing to bet that Giants' leadership was desperate to find an Eli clone to replace him.
They find a guy who was coached by the same coach, who has the same personality as Eli, etc etc
All the others were on a rookie contract or not a highly paid veteran. Wilson, Rogers, Flacco, Wentz/Foles, Mahomes all on rookie contracts. Then you had Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Kurt Warner.
So is Jones in the Eli, Ben or Brady spectrum? Or Wilson, Rogers, Flacco, Wentz, Mahomes spectrum?
Good points, but Brees was not on his first contract, he signed in NO as a FA.
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In comment 15423920 Eric from BBI said:
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there are pros and cons to Daniel Jones.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
The eras weren't that different.
And Eli had a vastly superior team (offense and defense) and coaching staff around him. But his detractors will never admit to that.
Those who say the Eli comparisons are not legit also amusingly ignore the fact that Eli was a losing quarterback (well under .500) during the second half of his career because he had the same surrounding talent issues that Daniel Jones now has.
There's an enormous amount of facts and evidence that Jones isn't particularly good. It's been cited here many times: poor stats, low scoring, a terrible record as a starter. General poor performance.
The arguments in his favor stray away from facts and towards conjecture:
- placing blame on the supporting cast
- comparisons to other players in Giants' history
- scenarios where more successful players are swapped with Jones ("You think Lamar Jackson would be as successful if he were on the Giants instead of the Ravens?")
It has not worked out here with Daniel Jones. That is a fact. It is not an opinion.
You are a national treasure. It is amazing how someone that scours a Giants website all day desperate to post negative about the teams quarterback can have such a limited knowledge of how football works. The supporting cast does matter, Jones' tenure in NY is still up in the air and nothing you say is a fact, it is completely conjecture from somebody obsessed with hating a player on the team he is supposed to root for!
If you don't like Terps take on Jones, let's read what someone who does know how football works said
The supporting cast does matter, Jones' tenure in NY is still up in the air and nothing you say is a fact, it is completely conjecture from somebody obsessed with hating a player on the team he is supposed to root for!
Supporting casts do matter, but the real franchise QBs are able to execute without football utopia. See Lamar Jackson this year.
I really think Jones could be a fairly good QB. But the infrastructure needed on the offensive side of the ball to support that would require a big investment to create football utopia. Unfortunately, the limitations of the hard cap model make that virtually impossible.
All the others were on a rookie contract or not a highly paid veteran. Wilson, Rogers, Flacco, Wentz/Foles, Mahomes all on rookie contracts. Then you had Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Kurt Warner.
So is Jones in the Eli, Ben or Brady spectrum? Or Wilson, Rogers, Flacco, Wentz, Mahomes spectrum?
Why are so many attached to Jones? I don’t get it. Shouldn’t our standards be higher?
Exactly. I don't get the attachment.
When Eli declined I could understand not wanting to move on from a club legend. But what makes Jones any different from any other flameout first rounder? If they traded him today I'd forget him in a week. Same with every other player on this roster - none of them have earned anything.
The Giants ruined the beginning of DJ's career much like the end of ELi's.
The only way forward is to start over "for real" this time.
Jones sucks.
That is a fact.
I have done a lot defending Jones.
What he does well on a small sample size is tight window throws down the field.
*****Small sample sizes can be misleading****
Everyone can point to some beautiful throws DJ has made, and they wonder, if he just had a better OL he could do that all of time.
That is not necessarily true.
He MIGHT be able to do that more.
He is terrible at throwing TDs inside the 20. This is not a small sample size.
Subjectively, if Jones had a legit supporting cast he might be a better QB. Acting like that is a forgone conclusion is the mistake many of you are making.
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In comment 15424170 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15423920 Eric from BBI said:
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there are pros and cons to Daniel Jones.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
The eras weren't that different.
And Eli had a vastly superior team (offense and defense) and coaching staff around him. But his detractors will never admit to that.
Those who say the Eli comparisons are not legit also amusingly ignore the fact that Eli was a losing quarterback (well under .500) during the second half of his career because he had the same surrounding talent issues that Daniel Jones now has.
There's an enormous amount of facts and evidence that Jones isn't particularly good. It's been cited here many times: poor stats, low scoring, a terrible record as a starter. General poor performance.
The arguments in his favor stray away from facts and towards conjecture:
- placing blame on the supporting cast
- comparisons to other players in Giants' history
- scenarios where more successful players are swapped with Jones ("You think Lamar Jackson would be as successful if he were on the Giants instead of the Ravens?")
It has not worked out here with Daniel Jones. That is a fact. It is not an opinion.
You are a national treasure. It is amazing how someone that scours a Giants website all day desperate to post negative about the teams quarterback can have such a limited knowledge of how football works. The supporting cast does matter, Jones' tenure in NY is still up in the air and nothing you say is a fact, it is completely conjecture from somebody obsessed with hating a player on the team he is supposed to root for!
If you don't like Terps take on Jones, let's read what someone who does know how football works said
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Remember, year 3 is all about evaluating whether or not Jones will be the long-term answer at quarterback. Part of that includes whether or not he performs well through adversity. Part of that includes how much he can elevate those around him greater than the sum of its parts. He failed here. There are a couple things that can be pointed at, but we must keep things simple. Jones was overmatched mentally and physically. No question.
Scooter he is talking about one game and I could bore everybody and go get the Phil Simms or Dilfer quotes where they gush about him. This all gets us to the point that his tenure is still up in the air.
I am hoping they go this way and think they will. Don't force the QB. I think SB was to help Eli. I also would not be surprised if Mara #10 or Tisch #4 was fiercely fighting for that SB pick.
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The supporting cast does matter, Jones' tenure in NY is still up in the air and nothing you say is a fact, it is completely conjecture from somebody obsessed with hating a player on the team he is supposed to root for!
Supporting casts do matter, but the real franchise QBs are able to execute without football utopia. See Lamar Jackson this year.
I really think Jones could be a fairly good QB. But the infrastructure needed on the offensive side of the ball to support that would require a big investment to create football utopia. Unfortunately, the limitations of the hard cap model make that virtually impossible.
BW, what if Jones could be a good to very good QB? Is that worth something? It is really hard to get those guys as well. He doesn't have to be Aaron Rodgers, but i would surely take good to very good QB play and move on to fixing the defense and the wholes on the OL.
The Giants also had a much easier schedule in Eli’s second year, if memory serves. I don’t think they’ve had as easy a schedule since Jones was drafted, and probably a little further back than that.
It is discussed obsessively by rival camps as if their ability to win the point will be the determining factor as to how the Giants handle the quarterback situation going further
I like him, I think he can be very good. However, I will not guarantee that he will be the answer going forward, which is quite different from the absolute certainty with which many have dismissed him.
What I know is this. It would absolutely be the best thing for the Giants if he turned out to be a great player, starting all over again with another young quarterback after a decade of losing is not something I will root for.
I will continue to hope for his and the team s success until they decide they must move on, at which time I will get behind the new guy.
The incessant criticism of Jones, the continued high jacking of threads to make these criticisms, has changed the tenor of this board and not in a good way.
Jones either will or will not prove to be the guy. There really is no need to take every bad play by Jones and every good play by another quarterback to drive home the point that you believe Jones stinks; believe me we know what you think.
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In comment 15424189 Walker Gillette said:
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The supporting cast does matter, Jones' tenure in NY is still up in the air and nothing you say is a fact, it is completely conjecture from somebody obsessed with hating a player on the team he is supposed to root for!
Supporting casts do matter, but the real franchise QBs are able to execute without football utopia. See Lamar Jackson this year.
I really think Jones could be a fairly good QB. But the infrastructure needed on the offensive side of the ball to support that would require a big investment to create football utopia. Unfortunately, the limitations of the hard cap model make that virtually impossible.
BW, what if Jones could be a good to very good QB? Is that worth something? It is really hard to get those guys as well. He doesn't have to be Aaron Rodgers, but i would surely take good to very good QB play and move on to fixing the defense and the wholes on the OL.
It is discussed obsessively by rival camps as if their ability to win the point will be the determining factor as to how the Giants handle the quarterback situation going further
I like him, I think he can be very good. However, I will not guarantee that he will be the answer going forward, which is quite different from the absolute certainty with which many have dismissed him.
What I know is this. It would absolutely be the best thing for the Giants if he turned out to be a great player, starting all over again with another young quarterback after a decade of losing is not something I will root for.
I will continue to hope for his and the team s success until they decide they must move on, at which time I will get behind the new guy.
The incessant criticism of Jones, the continued high jacking of threads to make these criticisms, has changed the tenor of this board and not in a good way.
Jones either will or will not prove to be the guy. There really is no need to take every bad play by Jones and every good play by another quarterback to drive home the point that you believe Jones stinks; believe me we know what you think.
Agree 100%. I have tried to stay off these redicilous and repetitive Jones threads
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than he was his rookie year. Progression matters.
The Giants also had a much easier schedule in Eli’s second year, if memory serves. I don’t think they’ve had as easy a schedule since Jones was drafted, and probably a little further back than that.
Easy schedule? We played in possibly the worst division in NFL history last year. We got hammered at home by a 6-10 49er team with a backup QB. Got hammered at home by an 8-8 Cards team. The toughest team we played all year, Jones didn’t play. I’m not sure the schedule was hard other than any schedule would have been hard for that squad.
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than he was his rookie year. Progression matters.
The Giants also had a much easier schedule in Eli’s second year, if memory serves. I don’t think they’ve had as easy a schedule since Jones was drafted, and probably a little further back than that.
I will not engage in debate over this because I can read the statistics.
Subjectively, you can say the starting cast around him has been poor.
He has reached the red zone plenty with that poor cast over 3 years.
The results in the red zone are poor.
This is where the game gets tough.
Everything is faster, he has to be decisive, more accurate and sudden.
Once in the red zone, regardless of the roster, with a perfect pass, a QB could elevate his entire team.
Jones does not elevate those around him.
We also have his college film.
He still has the same deficiencies.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/redzone-passing.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2020/redzone-passing.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/redzone-passing.htm
He is consistent.
I still want to be the guy, but I am off his bandwaggon until he does something tangible on the field with consistency. That does not make me a hater. I have been a cheerleader for a large part of his career, at some point objective reality takes over.
Cousins gets 30 million. Would you give Jones 4 years at 30 mill/year? That’s a bargain and then you will have to let guys go.
Priority number 1 is not the QB for the Giants. It’s determining if this is the right HC and who is running the drafts and assembling the team imo. Until the drafting improves we are not close to competing for a championship regardless of QB.
I think it’s a long shot Jones stars elsewhere but I’ll certainly pull for him. Seems like a better candidate to pull a Brad Johnson or Trent Dilfer down the road.
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In comment 15424189 Walker Gillette said:
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In comment 15424170 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15423920 Eric from BBI said:
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there are pros and cons to Daniel Jones.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
The eras weren't that different.
And Eli had a vastly superior team (offense and defense) and coaching staff around him. But his detractors will never admit to that.
Those who say the Eli comparisons are not legit also amusingly ignore the fact that Eli was a losing quarterback (well under .500) during the second half of his career because he had the same surrounding talent issues that Daniel Jones now has.
There's an enormous amount of facts and evidence that Jones isn't particularly good. It's been cited here many times: poor stats, low scoring, a terrible record as a starter. General poor performance.
The arguments in his favor stray away from facts and towards conjecture:
- placing blame on the supporting cast
- comparisons to other players in Giants' history
- scenarios where more successful players are swapped with Jones ("You think Lamar Jackson would be as successful if he were on the Giants instead of the Ravens?")
It has not worked out here with Daniel Jones. That is a fact. It is not an opinion.
You are a national treasure. It is amazing how someone that scours a Giants website all day desperate to post negative about the teams quarterback can have such a limited knowledge of how football works. The supporting cast does matter, Jones' tenure in NY is still up in the air and nothing you say is a fact, it is completely conjecture from somebody obsessed with hating a player on the team he is supposed to root for!
If you don't like Terps take on Jones, let's read what someone who does know how football works said
Quote:
Remember, year 3 is all about evaluating whether or not Jones will be the long-term answer at quarterback. Part of that includes whether or not he performs well through adversity. Part of that includes how much he can elevate those around him greater than the sum of its parts. He failed here. There are a couple things that can be pointed at, but we must keep things simple. Jones was overmatched mentally and physically. No question.
Scooter he is talking about one game and I could bore everybody and go get the Phil Simms or Dilfer quotes where they gush about him. This all gets us to the point that his tenure is still up in the air.
You're missing the point. Many just threw up their hands and said "well no one can hold it against Jones, every QB in history would have been bad that game" while Sy points out that the Rams game was a test and Jones failed in pretty much every aspect.
Overall there's been more games like LAR than NO
So what's the point?
I think we can nail it pretty simply that TDs are an important part of wins. Jones has very few of either.
It is discussed obsessively by rival camps as if their ability to win the point will be the determining factor as to how the Giants handle the quarterback situation going further
I like him, I think he can be very good. However, I will not guarantee that he will be the answer going forward, which is quite different from the absolute certainty with which many have dismissed him.
What I know is this. It would absolutely be the best thing for the Giants if he turned out to be a great player, starting all over again with another young quarterback after a decade of losing is not something I will root for.
I will continue to hope for his and the team s success until they decide they must move on, at which time I will get behind the new guy.
The incessant criticism of Jones, the continued high jacking of threads to make these criticisms, has changed the tenor of this board and not in a good way.
Jones either will or will not prove to be the guy. There really is no need to take every bad play by Jones and every good play by another quarterback to drive home the point that you believe Jones stinks; believe me we know what you think.
Yea that is because you are an Eli basher. 3 years later from moving on from Eli -- we still don't know what we have at QB, and lost a shit ton of games in the process. And will continue to lose more in the forseseable future.
Sorry, not buying it.
What I am buying is that Eli's surrounding talent had gotten so abysmal that he was no longer a winning quarterback.
********
bw... the comparison is NOT about similar skill sets, but about how surrounding talent can impact QB development.
If Daniel Jones was drafted by the Baltimore Ravens, I would wager he would be a winning QB at this point.
Youre out of your head. If Jones was playing for the ravens he's have 2 broken legs by now. Lamar avoids contact; runs out of bounds ; slides. he also seems to "roll with the punches" when he is going to take a hit. He doesn't lower his head and try to ram through 2 linesbackers!
They're not the same, they never were similar prospects whatsoever and people need to stop doing it.
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Used to be fun, but it has become stale and a cumbersome topic.
It is discussed obsessively by rival camps as if their ability to win the point will be the determining factor as to how the Giants handle the quarterback situation going further
I like him, I think he can be very good. However, I will not guarantee that he will be the answer going forward, which is quite different from the absolute certainty with which many have dismissed him.
What I know is this. It would absolutely be the best thing for the Giants if he turned out to be a great player, starting all over again with another young quarterback after a decade of losing is not something I will root for.
I will continue to hope for his and the team s success until they decide they must move on, at which time I will get behind the new guy.
The incessant criticism of Jones, the continued high jacking of threads to make these criticisms, has changed the tenor of this board and not in a good way.
Jones either will or will not prove to be the guy. There really is no need to take every bad play by Jones and every good play by another quarterback to drive home the point that you believe Jones stinks; believe me we know what you think.
Yea that is because you are an Eli basher. 3 years later from moving on from Eli -- we still don't know what we have at QB, and lost a shit ton of games in the process. And will continue to lose more in the forseseable future.
Eli won a won two Super Bowls with the Giants. During those two play off runs he was magnificent and as clutch as the greatest to ever play the game. During their successful seasons he was always clutch.
The Giants also played a lot of losing football during that era and never won a playoff game for n 13 of the 15 seasons he played.
Those are facts. If you want to classify that as bashing, ok. But I loved rooting for Eli
To be honest I really don’t see how your belief I am an Eli basher relates to my post though
They're not the same, they never were similar prospects whatsoever and people need to stop doing it.
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In comment 15424262 joeinpa said:
Quote:
Used to be fun, but it has become stale and a cumbersome topic.
It is discussed obsessively by rival camps as if their ability to win the point will be the determining factor as to how the Giants handle the quarterback situation going further
I like him, I think he can be very good. However, I will not guarantee that he will be the answer going forward, which is quite different from the absolute certainty with which many have dismissed him.
What I know is this. It would absolutely be the best thing for the Giants if he turned out to be a great player, starting all over again with another young quarterback after a decade of losing is not something I will root for.
I will continue to hope for his and the team s success until they decide they must move on, at which time I will get behind the new guy.
The incessant criticism of Jones, the continued high jacking of threads to make these criticisms, has changed the tenor of this board and not in a good way.
Jones either will or will not prove to be the guy. There really is no need to take every bad play by Jones and every good play by another quarterback to drive home the point that you believe Jones stinks; believe me we know what you think.
Yea that is because you are an Eli basher. 3 years later from moving on from Eli -- we still don't know what we have at QB, and lost a shit ton of games in the process. And will continue to lose more in the forseseable future.
Eli won a won two Super Bowls with the Giants. During those two play off runs he was magnificent and as clutch as the greatest to ever play the game. During their successful seasons he was always clutch.
The Giants also played a lot of losing football during that era and never won a playoff game for n 13 of the 15 seasons he played.
Those are facts. If you want to classify that as bashing, ok. But I loved rooting for Eli
To be honest I really don’t see how your belief I am an Eli basher relates to my post though
The point is people like you want to be vindicated from you "move on from Eli". "geno was just as good" "Eli is the problem". When it is obvious now that none of these things are true -- it is now I am sick of talking abou Jones". When I t should be "I was wrong about Eli".
And this whole thing about Eli's losing seasons. Eli was on worse teams than this. When have we seen anything like Toney here? And OBJ was never that good. Guy played like total shit last night and that was pretty mcuh how I remember Odell here. Lots of drops , not playing particularly well and overrated. When was the last time this place had a legit 1000 yard , 70 million guy like Golladay. When Eli was playing he had an overpriced Shep to throw to.
I'm concerned the brass will use injuries to justify bringing back many of the same characters in 2022. That and the cap situation paint a bleak picture for the next 1-2 seasons. And, the ownership penchant for half measures on changes, well ... I've gotten used to losing.
In 2004, when Eli first took over. Take a look at these stats:
Completion Percentages:
2004 - 59.8%
2020 - 65.25%
TD/INT ratio:
2004: 732 TDs and 524 INTs - 1.4
2020: 871 TDs and 395 INTs - 2.2
Those are huge difference when it comes to QB play.
But there are plenty of quarterbacks who are solid with good protection and good weapons. When you pick a QB 6th overall, you are hoping and expecting more than that. He needs to elevate others play and help you win games.
I'm not out on Jones, but he is yet to prove that now in his 3rd year.
2. Jones is not as good as Eli was and hasn't shown enough to suggest he might be
3. Our standard for a high 1st round pick QB should be much higher than either Eli's or Jones' first 3 years in the league
All of these things are true!
Jones sucks.
That is a fact.
I have done a lot defending Jones.
What he does well on a small sample size is tight window throws down the field.
*****Small sample sizes can be misleading****
Everyone can point to some beautiful throws DJ has made, and they wonder, if he just had a better OL he could do that all of time.
That is not necessarily true.
He MIGHT be able to do that more.
He is terrible at throwing TDs inside the 20. This is not a small sample size.
Subjectively, if Jones had a legit supporting cast he might be a better QB. Acting like that is a forgone conclusion is the mistake many of you are making.
Do you see the flaw using the word “objective “ and immediately follow it up by stating an opinion as fact?
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In comment 15424604 Debaser said:
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In comment 15424262 joeinpa said:
Quote:
Used to be fun, but it has become stale and a cumbersome topic.
It is discussed obsessively by rival camps as if their ability to win the point will be the determining factor as to how the Giants handle the quarterback situation going further
I like him, I think he can be very good. However, I will not guarantee that he will be the answer going forward, which is quite different from the absolute certainty with which many have dismissed him.
What I know is this. It would absolutely be the best thing for the Giants if he turned out to be a great player, starting all over again with another young quarterback after a decade of losing is not something I will root for.
I will continue to hope for his and the team s success until they decide they must move on, at which time I will get behind the new guy.
The incessant criticism of Jones, the continued high jacking of threads to make these criticisms, has changed the tenor of this board and not in a good way.
Jones either will or will not prove to be the guy. There really is no need to take every bad play by Jones and every good play by another quarterback to drive home the point that you believe Jones stinks; believe me we know what you think.
Yea that is because you are an Eli basher. 3 years later from moving on from Eli -- we still don't know what we have at QB, and lost a shit ton of games in the process. And will continue to lose more in the forseseable future.
Eli won a won two Super Bowls with the Giants. During those two play off runs he was magnificent and as clutch as the greatest to ever play the game. During their successful seasons he was always clutch.
The Giants also played a lot of losing football during that era and never won a playoff game for n 13 of the 15 seasons he played.
Those are facts. If you want to classify that as bashing, ok. But I loved rooting for Eli
To be honest I really don’t see how your belief I am an Eli basher relates to my post though
The point is people like you want to be vindicated from you "move on from Eli". "geno was just as good" "Eli is the problem". When it is obvious now that none of these things are true -- it is now I am sick of talking abou Jones". When I t should be "I was wrong about Eli".
And this whole thing about Eli's losing seasons. Eli was on worse teams than this. When have we seen anything like Toney here? And OBJ was never that good. Guy played like total shit last night and that was pretty mcuh how I remember Odell here. Lots of drops , not playing particularly well and overrated. When was the last time this place had a legit 1000 yard , 70 million guy like Golladay. When Eli was playing he had an overpriced Shep to throw to.
I don’t want to be vindicated from my stance on moving on from Eli, I believe I was correct
But your take on the subject lends some credence to the idea that some of the Jones bashing could be because he replaced Eli, I get that.
People make this argument and then complain about us not taking Josh Allen, Josh Allen was not seen by many as a 1st overall prospect either.
2006: 14th in yards, 11th in points.
2019: 23rd in yards, 19th in points.
2020: 31st in both
2005 and 2006 Eli was tied for fourth in TDs thrown. The production difference is huge.
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and they were vastly different prospects. Eli was taken #1 overall for a reason. Jones was never even in the conversation.
People make this argument and then complain about us not taking Josh Allen, Josh Allen was not seen by many as a 1st overall prospect either.
Forget even the pre-draft perception. Eli Manning was vastly, vastly better in college. More skilled, more productive, more results at the highest levels of college ball. Was easy to predict would be a professional QB. Josh Allen was not. Jones was not.
But your take on the subject lends some credence to the idea that some of the Jones bashing could be because he replaced Eli, I get that.
Yup keep digging in there. maybe when another 3 years pass we'll know who is right. But by then who care ? Enough time has passed....
One thing we know for sure is that we have nothing special in Jones, or Judge. That we know. Otherwise we would have seen something by now. Instead this season is pretty much shaping up like last season.
I don’t want to be vindicated from my stance on moving on from Eli, I believe I was correct
But your take on the subject lends some credence to the idea that some of the Jones bashing could be because he replaced Eli, I get that.
How are you correct anyway? How are you OK with what you are seeing on the field ; 3 years and counting?
Teams like the Colts or even the Giants under better management -- they didn't just move on from QBs and pay them 20 million under contract and pick a QB for the sake a GM making his mark and putting his big, dumb bloated ego ahead of the team.
THey moved on when they had a draft heavy QB class. Or they moved on from Peyton when they had a shot at drafting a prospect like Andrew Luck.
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I don’t want to be vindicated from my stance on moving on from Eli, I believe I was correct
But your take on the subject lends some credence to the idea that some of the Jones bashing could be because he replaced Eli, I get that.
How are you correct anyway? How are you OK with what you are seeing on the field ; 3 years and counting?
Teams like the Colts or even the Giants under better management -- they didn't just move on from QBs and pay them 20 million under contract and pick a QB for the sake a GM making his mark and putting his big, dumb bloated ego ahead of the team.
THey moved on when they had a draft heavy QB class. Or they moved on from Peyton when they had a shot at drafting a prospect like Andrew Luck.
It was obvious to me that the Giants were no longer going to win with Eli, time to move on. Maybe they picked the wrong guy because they waited a year too long to move on, thereby passing on Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen.
Guess I m being dense but I don’t see how the losing since El left is a vindication they should have kept Him, his last 3 seasons showed they could lose plenty with him
He won me over in his first professional game. So much pressure, replacing Eli and he killed it. His rookie year left me with confidence that it would probably be his worst year and he would get better. The talent around him wasn't great, the OL was piss poor and there were plenty of injuries. If felt reasonable to believe that he would get better. The turnovers did nag at me. His pocket awareness was concerning considering the amount of college starts.
His second year was far far far worse than I could have believed possible. I made many excuses for him because believing Jones is not the answer sets the franchise back at least 2 years from competing. It was reasonable to say new, coach, bad OL, new OC blah blah blah. I thought he was going to have a great 2021. Why? They got him a legit downfield threat in Golloday and a shifty guy in Toney. Jones was very accurate on tight window throws down the field. It seemed like a perfect match. There was a tiny problem with banking on that. He didn't throw down the field much. I was placing my belief on a very small sample size. I should have known better, but I wanted to believe Jones was the answer.
I don't need to recount 2021, it should be fresh in everyone's mind. Better stats, still not enough points. OK, he makes some pretty throws, he looks legit. I recently dug into his red zone performances over 3 years, even his rookie year that I liked, it was awful. There is a decent sample size of his red zone performance. I included reference in an earlier post in this thread. It is consistently bad over 3 years, bottom of the league.
In his last six years starting in college and the NFL he still has the same issues. We continue to be subjective in our analysis of him. He deserves all of 2021, but if he doesn't make it undeniable that he has the goods, we should move on. There is enormous amount objective evidence on Jones, I think we should lean more on that than the subjective.
When I look back on my entire outlook on Jones I feel that I was correct in my initial assessment. I changed my mind after his first game because I desperately wanted to believe Jones was the answer because I was so tired of losing. Jones too often seems overwhelmed by the game. I don't think he will be more than an average QB.
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I don’t want to be vindicated from my stance on moving on from Eli, I believe I was correct
But your take on the subject lends some credence to the idea that some of the Jones bashing could be because he replaced Eli, I get that.
How are you correct anyway? How are you OK with what you are seeing on the field ; 3 years and counting?
Teams like the Colts or even the Giants under better management -- they didn't just move on from QBs and pay them 20 million under contract and pick a QB for the sake a GM making his mark and putting his big, dumb bloated ego ahead of the team.
THey moved on when they had a draft heavy QB class. Or they moved on from Peyton when they had a shot at drafting a prospect like Andrew Luck.
It was obvious to me that the Giants were no longer going to win with Eli, time to move on. Maybe they picked the wrong guy because they waited a year too long to move on, thereby passing on Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen.
Guess I m being dense but I don’t see how the losing since El left is a vindication they should have kept Him, his last 3 seasons showed they could lose plenty with him
They didn’t “pass” on anybody on account of Eli. There is 0 evidence to suggest they drafted Barkley to “help” Eli. What have you seen from Gettleman to suggest that he wasn’t just drafting the best player in his mind anyway at the given draft slot? Also there was a way to move on from Eli and there wasn’t.
Cutting Eli in off season yes especially after drafting a josh Allen. Or keep him till week 10 if the season is hopeless bench him and put in allen. And what is the point of moving on from Eli for Daniel jones? You might as well have drafted quinton Nelson and free agent sign w Eli in win now mode
Jones and Trubisky are actually fairly comparable:
Daniel Jones
7,494 yards
903 rushing 5 TD
39 TD / 26 INT
35 fumbles / 19 Lost
W/L (9-23)
95 sacks
Mitch Trubisky
6,624 yards
715 rushing 5 TD
36 TD / 22 INT
17 fumbles / 7 Lost
W/L (17-15)
72 sacks
Jones had more total offensive yards, but Trubisky had fewer turnovers - their respective win-loss records would seem to be a natural result of that difference.
Not saying it's over though. The clock is ticking for him to improve and start winning games. Yeah he doesn't have a great team around him, but let's not act like he's playing flawless football and then the team is collapsing around him. He's done some God-awful things at times that have cost us ball games. Also, he's incredibly suspect in the red zone which is the part of the field where you win games. In part it's clearly because he's slow to process information and everything becomes more condensed and quicker in the red zone. If you can't score in the red zone you won't win games, and so far in DJ's career he's been a massive disappointment in the red zone.