Taylor Heinicke has been a better qb this year than Daniel Jones, statistically and in the W/L column. Does anyone consider Taylor Heinicke the long term answer for WFT? If not, I am not sure how you confidently say a qb like Jones is the answer for the NYG.
Taylor Heinicke has been a better qb this year than Daniel Jones, statistically and in the W/L column. Does anyone consider Taylor Heinicke the long term answer for WFT? If not, I am not sure how you confidently say a qb like Jones is the answer for the NYG.
Who cares? Why would you gamble that a QB with these stats will somehow turn it on and be good enough to win with in the playoffs? It worked with Eli so this type of low probability event is what we should bank on?
Not to mention Eli had a better arm and was actually good in college.
Jones is a below average qb on a bad team? Is it so wrong to say that both are true? Jones isn't the worst starting qb in the league and he isn't in the top starting half of the league in terms of qbs. In his last 19 starts (not 20 because of the Cowboys) he's thrown 15td passes and has lead a minimally productive offense. Some of that - not all - is attributable to his largely below average play.
Taylor Heinicke has been a better qb this year than Daniel Jones, statistically and in the W/L column. Does anyone consider Taylor Heinicke the long term answer for WFT? If not, I am not sure how you confidently say a qb like Jones is the answer for the NYG.
I would go BPA for the next two drafts with emphasis on the front 7 and OL. First step win the physical battle.
Look for a QB in the next two drafts. I have posted about the value of a QB being on a rookie contract who have won SB's and how hard it is for teams with QB's on a second contract winning Super Bowls. They truly have to be "elite".
I think a team in the upper tier on both the OL and front 7 with a sound secondary and WR's can win in this league with a "good/very good" rookie QB. Good consistent drafting gives you a good opportunity and the rookie QB salary allows for having quality depth imo.
My reasoning in not all about Jones. It is that we seem so far away still and his contract clock is coming up.
Since II have wavered recently on my Jones stance I think this
argument is a good oen for me to be involved in. I have to admit I have been a Jones guy and very supportive of him. I have taken issue with a few posters (Go terps being one specifically) as I feel that the hatred towards DJ had become just so great that any stat that went against their opinion was ignored, any issue that is give n credence to say (Jackson, Herbert, Rodgers etc) was being completely ignored or even outright discarded when it came to Jones. However, last week I saw DJ do stuff that was absolutely on him- two INTS that were passes that just shouldn't have been thrown at all. That was not good and the lack of scoring with him at QB is becoming a bit alarming. These inside the 10 stall outs are now not just due to poor play elsewhere but seem to be on Jones inability to make those tight quarter throws and quick decisions. Add to that the amount of losing (both now and when he was in college) becomes a MASSIVE concern as at what point does that become common place to him and make it so that you just can't envision him with a winning record.
Again, as I stated in the thread at the top of the page, the biggest issue right now is with our GM and possibly coach as I am 100% done with the GM and not really sure what we have in the Coach. DJ is an issue in that I am not sure what you do with him. Contract wise and cap wise we may be stuck with him regardless in 2022. BUt, I am not against drafting a QB if the NEW GM wants one.
Right now we need to get thge OLINE rebuilt and we need our LT (not left Tackle) our TJ watt, our Michael Strahan etc., our guy who can make a game change with one play, one possession by disrupting what an offense does.
We must build our team around the Oline on Offense and a stud pass rushing, offense disrupting player at EDge/LB'er...
RE: Since II have wavered recently on my Jones stance I think this
argument is a good oen for me to be involved in. I have to admit I have been a Jones guy and very supportive of him. I have taken issue with a few posters (Go terps being one specifically) as I feel that the hatred towards DJ had become just so great that any stat that went against their opinion was ignored, any issue that is give n credence to say (Jackson, Herbert, Rodgers etc) was being completely ignored or even outright discarded when it came to Jones. However, last week I saw DJ do stuff that was absolutely on him- two INTS that were passes that just shouldn't have been thrown at all. That was not good and the lack of scoring with him at QB is becoming a bit alarming. These inside the 10 stall outs are now not just due to poor play elsewhere but seem to be on Jones inability to make those tight quarter throws and quick decisions. Add to that the amount of losing (both now and when he was in college) becomes a MASSIVE concern as at what point does that become common place to him and make it so that you just can't envision him with a winning record.
Again, as I stated in the thread at the top of the page, the biggest issue right now is with our GM and possibly coach as I am 100% done with the GM and not really sure what we have in the Coach. DJ is an issue in that I am not sure what you do with him. Contract wise and cap wise we may be stuck with him regardless in 2022. BUt, I am not against drafting a QB if the NEW GM wants one.
Right now we need to get thge OLINE rebuilt and we need our LT (not left Tackle) our TJ watt, our Michael Strahan etc., our guy who can make a game change with one play, one possession by disrupting what an offense does.
We must build our team around the Oline on Offense and a stud pass rushing, offense disrupting player at EDge/LB'er...
Good post and I commend you for being able to change your stance. Too many folks on either side of an argument stay with their heels dug in these days.
I've said it before, but I'll repeat it for this thread
winning two Super Bowls with Eli Manning, in the way in which we won both of them, was a miracle. It's not a business model for a successful franchise. This is part of the problem the Maras have gotten themselves into. They had some success in the recent past despite themselves. It's easy to then convince yourself that you're doing something right!
However, a successful franchise does not aspire to move heaven and earth to acquire the #1 pick, to then use it on an above average QB and hope he will pull miraculous victories out of his ass.
I'm so amazingly happy that it happened, believe me, but to use that as the benchmark for what good looks like makes no sense.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
If we could fix that, we could change the world.
Applies to practically everything.
In regards to Jones I am the poster child for this.
I have been all over the place on Jones.
I am now firmly.
I don't know.
The Rams game was awful for Jones but admittedly no QB in history would have won that game in those circumstances, with that roster, against that team.
Also, it has become evident over many games that Daniel Jones sucks in the red zone. He might not process fast enough for that tighter environment.
He did not throw many TDs at Duke.
He has not won with consistency in his football life.
He didn't win at Duke because of talent.
He isn't winning in New York because of talent.
Are we sure?
He isn't elevating anyone, that's for sure.
The only thing I think I can say with some certainty is that he isn't a great one.
I would go BPA for the next two drafts with emphasis on the front 7 and OL. First step win the physical battle.
Look for a QB in the next two drafts. I have posted about the value of a QB being on a rookie contract who have won SB's and how hard it is for teams with QB's on a second contract winning Super Bowls. They truly have to be "elite".
I think a team in the upper tier on both the OL and front 7 with a sound secondary and WR's can win in this league with a "good/very good" rookie QB. Good consistent drafting gives you a good opportunity and the rookie QB salary allows for having quality depth imo.
My reasoning in not all about Jones. It is that we seem so far away still and his contract clock is coming up.
I agree that it is much preferable to have a initial contract QB for roster flexibility. However, you are using a high pick to draft a 50-50. The problem the Giants have is that I don't think they really know what they have in Jones. They have once again failed to put him behind a decent OL. We also do not know what second contract might look for Jones..or for that matter Barkley.
I'd get the trenches sorted and then worry about QB. I don't draft a replacement until you have the OL set.
There are gaping holes in Jones games that were just not there for Eli in his 1st game.
Jones is just not savvy. He is more athletic and runs faster. But he is just not a savvy runner either and I don't think you are gong to see much of him running any more anyway. Can you argue that this bad team makes him look bad possible? But I just find it hard to believe that playing on a bad team is what makes him timid about throwing into tight windows and in the red zone. Also he just can't go through reads he bird dogs receivers and it leads to picks.
RE: RE: Since II have wavered recently on my Jones stance I think this
argument is a good oen for me to be involved in. I have to admit I have been a Jones guy and very supportive of him. I have taken issue with a few posters (Go terps being one specifically) as I feel that the hatred towards DJ had become just so great that any stat that went against their opinion was ignored, any issue that is give n credence to say (Jackson, Herbert, Rodgers etc) was being completely ignored or even outright discarded when it came to Jones. However, last week I saw DJ do stuff that was absolutely on him- two INTS that were passes that just shouldn't have been thrown at all. That was not good and the lack of scoring with him at QB is becoming a bit alarming. These inside the 10 stall outs are now not just due to poor play elsewhere but seem to be on Jones inability to make those tight quarter throws and quick decisions. Add to that the amount of losing (both now and when he was in college) becomes a MASSIVE concern as at what point does that become common place to him and make it so that you just can't envision him with a winning record.
Again, as I stated in the thread at the top of the page, the biggest issue right now is with our GM and possibly coach as I am 100% done with the GM and not really sure what we have in the Coach. DJ is an issue in that I am not sure what you do with him. Contract wise and cap wise we may be stuck with him regardless in 2022. BUt, I am not against drafting a QB if the NEW GM wants one.
Right now we need to get thge OLINE rebuilt and we need our LT (not left Tackle) our TJ watt, our Michael Strahan etc., our guy who can make a game change with one play, one possession by disrupting what an offense does.
We must build our team around the Oline on Offense and a stud pass rushing, offense disrupting player at EDge/LB'er...
Good post and I commend you for being able to change your stance. Too many folks on either side of an argument stay with their heels dug in these days.
I agree let’s build the OL and get a pass rusher and a linebacker or two. We drafted DJ and SB before we fixed OL. The DJ thing will play out his year and probably next. The constant arguing about Jones every week is getting old.
so jones has 39 total touchdowns through 2.5 seasons..
24 of those came his rookie year in a different offense. that means he's thrown 15 total TD passes in the season and a half since his rookie year in the current system. so, is garrett's system shitty or is jones shitty, or, as a poster above intimated, is it a bit of both.
whatever the reason, you can't win with that kind of abysmal production. it's embarrassingly poor. it's year three and the game has yet to "slow down" for jones. eli was brilliant at the LoS and changing in and out of plays. jones, notsomuch.
jones is currently the worst quarterback in the division. considering where he was drafted, that is alarming.
You might want to revisit Eli's win-loss record in his last few years here.
Again, I'm not saying Daniel Jones is the answer or not, but half of the Giants fan base was still demanding the Giants dump Eli in 2007, four years into his career.
Eli was past his prime at that point. It's crazy to make a prognosis on DJ based on Eli last few years in the league.
Eli's last three years for any comparison. Even if you don't think he was washed up, he was in decline, even Eli would admit to that. Not to mention the team was in complete disarray.
because I do think people aren't really thinking anymore but just picking sides is this:
A couple of weeks ago Daniel wins "NFC Player of the Week" (second or third time he's won it) and his supporters are yelling "See, I told you he's a good one!"
Now he's coming off a 4-turnover game and his detractors are yelling, "See, I told you he's a bad one!"
It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
Great post Eric.
The longer I live the more I realize that fandom is fickle.
I had a woman at the convenience store say to me " Man are you brave for wearing that Giants shirt ". I told her, " I have been a Giants fan for 45 years and got the opportunity to watch them win the Super Bowl with my son. The losing sucks but when they get good again it will be very sweet."
The Giants are not very good, part of that is because Jones is still growing as a NFL QB. The game he had vs. New Orleans was outstanding and could be a more normal occasion if we had a higher quality O Line and our record would be better if we had more big plays and a pass rush on defense.
The NFL is much different than the days of Phil Simms. He didn't become a very good player until 1984, his 6th year. Nobody has the patience for a QB to mature and grow, results are needed quicker, which also results in dumping a QB before his second contract. Shit, the Dolphins may we giving up on Tua already. Honesty, it makes me not like the NFL that much.
I tend to believe that if the franchise can get a viable O Line, and a pass rusher that is a dominant player, they could turn things around.
Jones seems to have a good set of skills and a strong enough arm and work ethic to have success. Jones can be part of the solution.
Jones seems to have a good set of skills and a strong enough arm and work ethic to have success. Jones can be part of the solution.
His best case scenario is probably similar to Kirk Cousins. Can put up pretty stats under the right circumstances, but not an elite player in any way, and ultimately not a guy who's likely to start for a real contender.
don't understand why we need to keep having this debate. either he's going to be the QB for us long term or he's not, largely depending on how the rest of this year goes. In all likelihood he will get 2022 to play, considering A) we aren't paying him any meaningful dollars quite yet, B) even if we did draft a QB, they aren't likely to start right away, and C) there's a good chance any new GM (and Judge especially) wants to roll with Jones instead of any of the QBs that are deemed to be 1st round worthy.
This thing where posters have to emasculate themselves in order to defend their stance on Jones is getting really ridiculous. You either like him a lot, you hate him, or you're willing to wait it out.
The only recent team that really didn't do this was the Cardinals, as it was extremely apparent basically right away that Rosen didn't have any type of NFL leadership abilities.
Justin Herbert, the 6th pick in the 2020 draft. Jones was the 6th pick in the proceeding draft.
Both started a significant number of games as rookies, both have had multiple head coaches and offensive coordinators, both played into their senior years in college, both were viewed (in some corners) risky lottery picks, both are big and athletic.
while that may be true, Kirk Cousins has largely played at a Pro Bowl level for a few seasons now. He had an excellent season last year, and is continuing that this year.
because I think Jones can only be as good as Cousins, I think he'll be better. I'm just saying that Cousins is a good NFL quarterback.
I think Cousins is better now than Jones will ever be. Not by a lot, but yeah, I think Jones ceiling is a little below Cousins. On the right team, that could win.
It was already a passing league when Eli Manning came up,
but the deck was not nearly as stacked in favor of passing (in terms of how pass interference was called and qbs were protected) as it is today. With that said, Eli was a wildly divisive player among Giants fans through 3 years of his career. The game in Buffalo in Year 4, ironically a win where the Giants clinched a playoff spot, Eli's performance that day was one of the worst of his entire career. The team then went on an amazing run, Eli looked like a completely different player than we had seen through 4 full seasons, and he was officially the toast of the town.
My point is that saying Daniel Jones' numbers are only slightly worse than Eli's were through this time in his career is not proving the point you think it is because Eli was teetering on the edge of being a failed player before he got his act together just in time.
Although, in Eli's defense, I will note that he had already showed an incredible nack for playing his best at critical moments of games and driving the team down the filed when he absolutely had to. The team was much better, no question, but Eli won some games for them early in his career (a game against Denver at home comes to mind, he also drove them down the field for a late game tying score in Philly in the wildcard game in 2006 before the defense gave it up at the very end). Jones has shown absolutely zero of that.
Justin Herbert, the 6th pick in the 2020 draft. Jones was the 6th pick in the proceeding draft.
Both started a significant number of games as rookies, both have had multiple head coaches and offensive coordinators, both played into their senior years in college, both were viewed (in some corners) risky lottery picks, both are big and athletic.
One is now a top 10 QB. One isn't close.
One had Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Hunter Henry and a coach who had been with his team a few years (plus a decent defense).. JOnes has been on a team with SS (injured), Golden tate (done done), SB (can't stay healthy), no Oline and a TE who epitomizes the state of this organization..
Justin Herbert, the 6th pick in the 2020 draft. Jones was the 6th pick in the proceeding draft.
Both started a significant number of games as rookies, both have had multiple head coaches and offensive coordinators, both played into their senior years in college, both were viewed (in some corners) risky lottery picks, both are big and athletic.
One is now a top 10 QB. One isn't close.
One had Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Hunter Henry and a coach who had been with his team a few years (plus a decent defense).. JOnes has been on a team with SS (injured), Golden tate (done done), SB (can't stay healthy), no Oline and a TE who epitomizes the state of this organization..
Again, I am no longer sold on Jones but when you ignore obvious pieces just to further your opinion on Jones it loses credibility.
Justin Herbert, the 6th pick in the 2020 draft. Jones was the 6th pick in the proceeding draft.
Both started a significant number of games as rookies, both have had multiple head coaches and offensive coordinators, both played into their senior years in college, both were viewed (in some corners) risky lottery picks, both are big and athletic.
One is now a top 10 QB. One isn't close.
One had Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Hunter Henry and a coach who had been with his team a few years (plus a decent defense).. JOnes has been on a team with SS (injured), Golden tate (done done), SB (can't stay healthy), no Oline and a TE who epitomizes the state of this organization..
Uh, Herbert had one of the worst OLs in football last year in terms of allowing pressure. Yet, despite that, Herbert was the best QB in the league - by QBR - in dealing with that pressure. So that's merely a better set of receivers? This year his blind side is being protected by a rookie LT.
Herbert is on his second HC and second OC. So I don't understand your coaching point...
Good post. I wanted to get rid of Eli a few times. He was maddening at times. But if you look back the signs were there that he had the "it" factor. I remember they played San Diego and all the talk was Rivers and how well he and the Chargers were doing. They lost the game but Eli played big under a lot of pressure on the road.
because I do think people aren't really thinking anymore but just picking sides is this:
A couple of weeks ago Daniel wins "NFC Player of the Week" (second or third time he's won it) and his supporters are yelling "See, I told you he's a good one!"
Now he's coming off a 4-turnover game and his detractors are yelling, "See, I told you he's a bad one!"
It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
Our fanbase is horrible and it was horrible when we were winning Superbowls with Eli. Our fans are a bunch of whiny, entitled bitches and literally 90% of the whining is pure "in the moment, emotional" garnage that isn't even well thought-out.
things just not get to him. NFCCG against Favre at Lambeau, NFCCG at San Francisco hit 21 times, standing tall against BB and TB twice in the Super Bowl.
Have we seen enough subtle signs from Jones that we can expect him to do some of these things (most likely he will have to do something very special) somewhere down the road?
a quarterback that compares to Eli anyway? The Giants were only ever really dominant for a full season once during his tenure here. What separates Eli from other past Giants QB's was his ability to stay healthy and his magic in the playoffs. He was really only a top 5 QB one season.
I love Eli. We all do. But we love most his magical playoff runs and his ability to stay on the field. DJ doesn't have that yet. DJ stats are comparable to Eli Manning's regular season stats, which were about middle of the pack during his time here. Eli's legend was really born in the postseason, something DJ's Giants haven't done yet.
The fact you can win with good, not great, QB is what the takeaway should be.
But should this be the bar for the Giants? Why not always be trying to get better at the most key position in sports?
Who said we don't want him to get better? But every week.... he's great, no he sucks... Oh he fumbled let's draft a QB. Wait, NFC Player Of The Week... I love me some DJ. Just stop.... bunch of bandwagon fools.
Jones is a below average qb on a bad team? Is it so wrong to say that both are true? Jones isn't the worst starting qb in the league and he isn't in the top starting half of the league in terms of qbs. In his last 19 starts (not 20 because of the Cowboys) he's thrown 15td passes and has lead a minimally productive offense. Some of that - not all - is attributable to his largely below average play.
Taylor Heinicke has been a better qb this year than Daniel Jones, statistically and in the W/L column. Does anyone consider Taylor Heinicke the long term answer for WFT? If not, I am not sure how you confidently say a qb like Jones is the answer for the NYG.
It can be that but you nor I know it because the guy hasn't lined up for one snap in his career with an even AVERAGE offensive line...
There are gaping holes in Jones games that were just not there for Eli in his 1st game.
Jones is just not savvy. He is more athletic and runs faster. But he is just not a savvy runner either and I don't think you are gong to see much of him running any more anyway. Can you argue that this bad team makes him look bad possible? But I just find it hard to believe that playing on a bad team is what makes him timid about throwing into tight windows and in the red zone. Also he just can't go through reads he bird dogs receivers and it leads to picks.
Ah... so even statistical proof doesn't work for you. AND you have a horrible memory. Eli was mind-bogglingly bad at times in his first 4 years. Remember the home game vs Minnesota? THREE pick 6s and 4 Ints... people were calling for his head and he won a Superbowl 12 weeks later.
Jones is a below average qb on a bad team? Is it so wrong to say that both are true? Jones isn't the worst starting qb in the league and he isn't in the top starting half of the league in terms of qbs. In his last 19 starts (not 20 because of the Cowboys) he's thrown 15td passes and has lead a minimally productive offense. Some of that - not all - is attributable to his largely below average play.
Taylor Heinicke has been a better qb this year than Daniel Jones, statistically and in the W/L column. Does anyone consider Taylor Heinicke the long term answer for WFT? If not, I am not sure how you confidently say a qb like Jones is the answer for the NYG.
It can be that but you nor I know it because the guy hasn't lined up for one snap in his career with an even AVERAGE offensive line...
So you hate us terrible Giants fans, yet you waste your time interacting with us on a Giants message board? And, we are terrible because we want to see a product be something more than mediocre to bad? Cool.
Do you really think Eli was "washed up" in 2017 and 2018?
I guess if you do, you have an argument.
But from my eyes, I saw yet another quarterback with a shitty offensive line and defense around him.
What about 2012-2015 then? Was Eli washed up then too?
2017-18: yes, I thought Eli was washed up. I thought he played pretty badly in the 2017 regular season, had a good playoff game, and then was basically a replacement level player afterwards.
During that 2017-19 period, two players replaced him in the starting lineup. Geno Smith played about the same level as Eli v the Raiders. A rookie Daniel Jones was distinctly more exciting, just a more productive player.
Those A/B switches support the point the Eli was basically done after the Packers wild card game.
because I think Jones can only be as good as Cousins, I think he'll be better. I'm just saying that Cousins is a good NFL quarterback.
i can buy that cousins is an average-to-good NFL quarterback.
since cousins been a starter, he's thrown an average of 29 passing TDs a season over his six seasons (and has 13 passing TDs so far this season).
jones had 11 TD passes last year and has four this year through six games.
jones is a long, long way from kirk cousins level production (kirk cousins was also a 4th round draft pick).
under judge and garrett, jones has been a marginal player who cannot put points on the board.
even in that dreadful 2017 season where eli was benched for geno smith, and with beckham, brandon marshall, pugh, fluker, and richburg all on IR, and with engram and shepard missing half the season with injuries, a supposedly "washed" eli threw 19 TD passes under slickback mac.
jones needs to do a hell of a lot better. outside of some 4th quarter/OT heroics in the saints game, he's shown nothing in his time under judge/garrett.
because I do think people aren't really thinking anymore but just picking sides is this:
A couple of weeks ago Daniel wins "NFC Player of the Week" (second or third time he's won it) and his supporters are yelling "See, I told you he's a good one!"
Now he's coming off a 4-turnover game and his detractors are yelling, "See, I told you he's a bad one!"
It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
Our fanbase is horrible and it was horrible when we were winning Superbowls with Eli. Our fans are a bunch of whiny, entitled bitches and literally 90% of the whining is pure "in the moment, emotional" garnage that isn't even well thought-out.
Apples and oranges. One of those performances is much more of an outlier than the other.
How many games has Jones come from behind games had and been a large reason why we won and how many that he failed to score TDs in the red zone or he turned the ball over and was a big part of the reason we lost?
Good post. I wanted to get rid of Eli a few times. He was maddening at times. But if you look back the signs were there that he had the "it" factor. I remember they played San Diego and all the talk was Rivers and how well he and the Chargers were doing. They lost the game but Eli played big under a lot of pressure on the road.
that 05 san diego loss was when i knew eli was the goods. played his ass off that game.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
The eras weren't that different.
And Eli had a vastly superior team (offense and defense) and coaching staff around him. But his detractors will never admit to that.
Those who say the Eli comparisons are not legit also amusingly ignore the fact that Eli was a losing quarterback (well under .500) during the second half of his career because he had the same surrounding talent issues that Daniel Jones now has.
Very true. I haven't made my mind up yet and I'm by far no expert but neither are most on here. The bashing is ridiculous.
in 2017 and 2018. He would have had to have had a top OL and running game. His mind would allow him to make enough plays to keep a team competitive. Rising to playoff Eli was probably not a reality at that point in his career.
I think John Mara would have been ecstatic if Eli could have played in meaningful games in December with playoff hopes alive. Getting in would be gravy. I think this is what he had in mind when Dave took over.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
The eras weren't that different.
And Eli had a vastly superior team (offense and defense) and coaching staff around him. But his detractors will never admit to that.
Those who say the Eli comparisons are not legit also amusingly ignore the fact that Eli was a losing quarterback (well under .500) during the second half of his career because he had the same surrounding talent issues that Daniel Jones now has.
There's an enormous amount of facts and evidence that Jones isn't particularly good. It's been cited here many times: poor stats, low scoring, a terrible record as a starter. General poor performance.
The arguments in his favor stray away from facts and towards conjecture:
- placing blame on the supporting cast
- comparisons to other players in Giants' history
- scenarios where more successful players are swapped with Jones ("You think Lamar Jackson would be as successful if he were on the Giants instead of the Ravens?")
It has not worked out here with Daniel Jones. That is a fact. It is not an opinion.
if they think Jones has had a strong staff and offensive personnel support his first three years.
The issue now is moving forward. Eli was on a 6 year contract and contacts then for QB's were very big relative to the cap.
Giants have to make a decision on Jones and whether or not he is worth the very big contract coming up. So the question is not what he did not have but what do you forecast for him the next 3-4 years. It becomes very hard to build all the pieces when you lay out that contract. So how one answers that is I guess where you stand with Jones.
I agree with you much if the time but not here. I perceived a notable lack of intensity starting in 2016. Eli just wasn’t playing with the passion he did earlier. If not for the money, he should have retired for personal reasons after the Packers playoff.
And who can blame him? He’d worked with gameplanning authorities like Tom Coughlin and Gilbride and now the coach was Ben McAdoo? What? They weren’t winning with McAdoo and Eli knew it.
Great point here.
Quote:
Taylor Heinicke has been a better qb this year than Daniel Jones, statistically and in the W/L column. Does anyone consider Taylor Heinicke the long term answer for WFT? If not, I am not sure how you confidently say a qb like Jones is the answer for the NYG.
Great point here.
Totally agreed.
I guess if you do, you have an argument.
But from my eyes, I saw yet another quarterback with a shitty offensive line and defense around him.
What about 2012-2015 then? Was Eli washed up then too?
He was washed up in 2017 and 2018. And it really started in 2016. It’s ok to admit this now.
Not to mention Eli had a better arm and was actually good in college.
Taylor Heinicke has been a better qb this year than Daniel Jones, statistically and in the W/L column. Does anyone consider Taylor Heinicke the long term answer for WFT? If not, I am not sure how you confidently say a qb like Jones is the answer for the NYG.
Logic.
And they are desperate for Jones to be Eli.
Yet, the two players have NOTHING in common as QBs. Two different skill sets.
Just bizarre...
Look for a QB in the next two drafts. I have posted about the value of a QB being on a rookie contract who have won SB's and how hard it is for teams with QB's on a second contract winning Super Bowls. They truly have to be "elite".
I think a team in the upper tier on both the OL and front 7 with a sound secondary and WR's can win in this league with a "good/very good" rookie QB. Good consistent drafting gives you a good opportunity and the rookie QB salary allows for having quality depth imo.
My reasoning in not all about Jones. It is that we seem so far away still and his contract clock is coming up.
Again, as I stated in the thread at the top of the page, the biggest issue right now is with our GM and possibly coach as I am 100% done with the GM and not really sure what we have in the Coach. DJ is an issue in that I am not sure what you do with him. Contract wise and cap wise we may be stuck with him regardless in 2022. BUt, I am not against drafting a QB if the NEW GM wants one.
Right now we need to get thge OLINE rebuilt and we need our LT (not left Tackle) our TJ watt, our Michael Strahan etc., our guy who can make a game change with one play, one possession by disrupting what an offense does.
We must build our team around the Oline on Offense and a stud pass rushing, offense disrupting player at EDge/LB'er...
Again, as I stated in the thread at the top of the page, the biggest issue right now is with our GM and possibly coach as I am 100% done with the GM and not really sure what we have in the Coach. DJ is an issue in that I am not sure what you do with him. Contract wise and cap wise we may be stuck with him regardless in 2022. BUt, I am not against drafting a QB if the NEW GM wants one.
Right now we need to get thge OLINE rebuilt and we need our LT (not left Tackle) our TJ watt, our Michael Strahan etc., our guy who can make a game change with one play, one possession by disrupting what an offense does.
We must build our team around the Oline on Offense and a stud pass rushing, offense disrupting player at EDge/LB'er...
Good post and I commend you for being able to change your stance. Too many folks on either side of an argument stay with their heels dug in these days.
However, a successful franchise does not aspire to move heaven and earth to acquire the #1 pick, to then use it on an above average QB and hope he will pull miraculous victories out of his ass.
I'm so amazingly happy that it happened, believe me, but to use that as the benchmark for what good looks like makes no sense.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
Applies to practically everything.
In regards to Jones I am the poster child for this.
I have been all over the place on Jones.
I am now firmly.
I don't know.
The Rams game was awful for Jones but admittedly no QB in history would have won that game in those circumstances, with that roster, against that team.
Also, it has become evident over many games that Daniel Jones sucks in the red zone. He might not process fast enough for that tighter environment.
He did not throw many TDs at Duke.
He has not won with consistency in his football life.
He didn't win at Duke because of talent.
He isn't winning in New York because of talent.
Are we sure?
He isn't elevating anyone, that's for sure.
The only thing I think I can say with some certainty is that he isn't a great one.
It would have presented itself by now.
Look for a QB in the next two drafts. I have posted about the value of a QB being on a rookie contract who have won SB's and how hard it is for teams with QB's on a second contract winning Super Bowls. They truly have to be "elite".
I think a team in the upper tier on both the OL and front 7 with a sound secondary and WR's can win in this league with a "good/very good" rookie QB. Good consistent drafting gives you a good opportunity and the rookie QB salary allows for having quality depth imo.
My reasoning in not all about Jones. It is that we seem so far away still and his contract clock is coming up.
I'd get the trenches sorted and then worry about QB. I don't draft a replacement until you have the OL set.
Jones is just not savvy. He is more athletic and runs faster. But he is just not a savvy runner either and I don't think you are gong to see much of him running any more anyway. Can you argue that this bad team makes him look bad possible? But I just find it hard to believe that playing on a bad team is what makes him timid about throwing into tight windows and in the red zone. Also he just can't go through reads he bird dogs receivers and it leads to picks.
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argument is a good oen for me to be involved in. I have to admit I have been a Jones guy and very supportive of him. I have taken issue with a few posters (Go terps being one specifically) as I feel that the hatred towards DJ had become just so great that any stat that went against their opinion was ignored, any issue that is give n credence to say (Jackson, Herbert, Rodgers etc) was being completely ignored or even outright discarded when it came to Jones. However, last week I saw DJ do stuff that was absolutely on him- two INTS that were passes that just shouldn't have been thrown at all. That was not good and the lack of scoring with him at QB is becoming a bit alarming. These inside the 10 stall outs are now not just due to poor play elsewhere but seem to be on Jones inability to make those tight quarter throws and quick decisions. Add to that the amount of losing (both now and when he was in college) becomes a MASSIVE concern as at what point does that become common place to him and make it so that you just can't envision him with a winning record.
Again, as I stated in the thread at the top of the page, the biggest issue right now is with our GM and possibly coach as I am 100% done with the GM and not really sure what we have in the Coach. DJ is an issue in that I am not sure what you do with him. Contract wise and cap wise we may be stuck with him regardless in 2022. BUt, I am not against drafting a QB if the NEW GM wants one.
Right now we need to get thge OLINE rebuilt and we need our LT (not left Tackle) our TJ watt, our Michael Strahan etc., our guy who can make a game change with one play, one possession by disrupting what an offense does.
We must build our team around the Oline on Offense and a stud pass rushing, offense disrupting player at EDge/LB'er...
Good post and I commend you for being able to change your stance. Too many folks on either side of an argument stay with their heels dug in these days.
whatever the reason, you can't win with that kind of abysmal production. it's embarrassingly poor. it's year three and the game has yet to "slow down" for jones. eli was brilliant at the LoS and changing in and out of plays. jones, notsomuch.
jones is currently the worst quarterback in the division. considering where he was drafted, that is alarming.
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guess not.
You might want to revisit Eli's win-loss record in his last few years here.
Again, I'm not saying Daniel Jones is the answer or not, but half of the Giants fan base was still demanding the Giants dump Eli in 2007, four years into his career.
Eli was past his prime at that point. It's crazy to make a prognosis on DJ based on Eli last few years in the league.
A couple of weeks ago Daniel wins "NFC Player of the Week" (second or third time he's won it) and his supporters are yelling "See, I told you he's a good one!"
Now he's coming off a 4-turnover game and his detractors are yelling, "See, I told you he's a bad one!"
It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
Great post Eric.
The longer I live the more I realize that fandom is fickle.
I had a woman at the convenience store say to me " Man are you brave for wearing that Giants shirt ". I told her, " I have been a Giants fan for 45 years and got the opportunity to watch them win the Super Bowl with my son. The losing sucks but when they get good again it will be very sweet."
The Giants are not very good, part of that is because Jones is still growing as a NFL QB. The game he had vs. New Orleans was outstanding and could be a more normal occasion if we had a higher quality O Line and our record would be better if we had more big plays and a pass rush on defense.
The NFL is much different than the days of Phil Simms. He didn't become a very good player until 1984, his 6th year. Nobody has the patience for a QB to mature and grow, results are needed quicker, which also results in dumping a QB before his second contract. Shit, the Dolphins may we giving up on Tua already. Honesty, it makes me not like the NFL that much.
I tend to believe that if the franchise can get a viable O Line, and a pass rusher that is a dominant player, they could turn things around.
Jones seems to have a good set of skills and a strong enough arm and work ethic to have success. Jones can be part of the solution.
I've made the same point before. Eli had a very unusual career path which makes him an unlikely comp for almost anyone else.
Sorry, not buying it.
What I am buying is that Eli's surrounding talent had gotten so abysmal that he was no longer a winning quarterback.
********
bw... the comparison is NOT about similar skill sets, but about how surrounding talent can impact QB development.
If Daniel Jones was drafted by the Baltimore Ravens, I would wager he would be a winning QB at this point.
His best case scenario is probably similar to Kirk Cousins. Can put up pretty stats under the right circumstances, but not an elite player in any way, and ultimately not a guy who's likely to start for a real contender.
This thing where posters have to emasculate themselves in order to defend their stance on Jones is getting really ridiculous. You either like him a lot, you hate him, or you're willing to wait it out.
The only recent team that really didn't do this was the Cardinals, as it was extremely apparent basically right away that Rosen didn't have any type of NFL leadership abilities.
Both started a significant number of games as rookies, both have had multiple head coaches and offensive coordinators, both played into their senior years in college, both were viewed (in some corners) risky lottery picks, both are big and athletic.
One is now a top 10 QB. One isn't close.
My point is that saying Daniel Jones' numbers are only slightly worse than Eli's were through this time in his career is not proving the point you think it is because Eli was teetering on the edge of being a failed player before he got his act together just in time.
Although, in Eli's defense, I will note that he had already showed an incredible nack for playing his best at critical moments of games and driving the team down the filed when he absolutely had to. The team was much better, no question, but Eli won some games for them early in his career (a game against Denver at home comes to mind, he also drove them down the field for a late game tying score in Philly in the wildcard game in 2006 before the defense gave it up at the very end). Jones has shown absolutely zero of that.
Both started a significant number of games as rookies, both have had multiple head coaches and offensive coordinators, both played into their senior years in college, both were viewed (in some corners) risky lottery picks, both are big and athletic.
One is now a top 10 QB. One isn't close.
One had Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Hunter Henry and a coach who had been with his team a few years (plus a decent defense).. JOnes has been on a team with SS (injured), Golden tate (done done), SB (can't stay healthy), no Oline and a TE who epitomizes the state of this organization..
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Justin Herbert, the 6th pick in the 2020 draft. Jones was the 6th pick in the proceeding draft.
Both started a significant number of games as rookies, both have had multiple head coaches and offensive coordinators, both played into their senior years in college, both were viewed (in some corners) risky lottery picks, both are big and athletic.
One is now a top 10 QB. One isn't close.
One had Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Hunter Henry and a coach who had been with his team a few years (plus a decent defense).. JOnes has been on a team with SS (injured), Golden tate (done done), SB (can't stay healthy), no Oline and a TE who epitomizes the state of this organization..
Again, I am no longer sold on Jones but when you ignore obvious pieces just to further your opinion on Jones it loses credibility.
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Justin Herbert, the 6th pick in the 2020 draft. Jones was the 6th pick in the proceeding draft.
Both started a significant number of games as rookies, both have had multiple head coaches and offensive coordinators, both played into their senior years in college, both were viewed (in some corners) risky lottery picks, both are big and athletic.
One is now a top 10 QB. One isn't close.
One had Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Hunter Henry and a coach who had been with his team a few years (plus a decent defense).. JOnes has been on a team with SS (injured), Golden tate (done done), SB (can't stay healthy), no Oline and a TE who epitomizes the state of this organization..
Uh, Herbert had one of the worst OLs in football last year in terms of allowing pressure. Yet, despite that, Herbert was the best QB in the league - by QBR - in dealing with that pressure. So that's merely a better set of receivers? This year his blind side is being protected by a rookie LT.
Herbert is on his second HC and second OC. So I don't understand your coaching point...
A couple of weeks ago Daniel wins "NFC Player of the Week" (second or third time he's won it) and his supporters are yelling "See, I told you he's a good one!"
Now he's coming off a 4-turnover game and his detractors are yelling, "See, I told you he's a bad one!"
It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
Our fanbase is horrible and it was horrible when we were winning Superbowls with Eli. Our fans are a bunch of whiny, entitled bitches and literally 90% of the whining is pure "in the moment, emotional" garnage that isn't even well thought-out.
Have we seen enough subtle signs from Jones that we can expect him to do some of these things (most likely he will have to do something very special) somewhere down the road?
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In comment 15423943 Keaton028 said:
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a quarterback that compares to Eli anyway? The Giants were only ever really dominant for a full season once during his tenure here. What separates Eli from other past Giants QB's was his ability to stay healthy and his magic in the playoffs. He was really only a top 5 QB one season.
I love Eli. We all do. But we love most his magical playoff runs and his ability to stay on the field. DJ doesn't have that yet. DJ stats are comparable to Eli Manning's regular season stats, which were about middle of the pack during his time here. Eli's legend was really born in the postseason, something DJ's Giants haven't done yet.
The fact you can win with good, not great, QB is what the takeaway should be.
But should this be the bar for the Giants? Why not always be trying to get better at the most key position in sports?
Who said we don't want him to get better? But every week.... he's great, no he sucks... Oh he fumbled let's draft a QB. Wait, NFC Player Of The Week... I love me some DJ. Just stop.... bunch of bandwagon fools.
Taylor Heinicke has been a better qb this year than Daniel Jones, statistically and in the W/L column. Does anyone consider Taylor Heinicke the long term answer for WFT? If not, I am not sure how you confidently say a qb like Jones is the answer for the NYG.
It can be that but you nor I know it because the guy hasn't lined up for one snap in his career with an even AVERAGE offensive line...
Jones is just not savvy. He is more athletic and runs faster. But he is just not a savvy runner either and I don't think you are gong to see much of him running any more anyway. Can you argue that this bad team makes him look bad possible? But I just find it hard to believe that playing on a bad team is what makes him timid about throwing into tight windows and in the red zone. Also he just can't go through reads he bird dogs receivers and it leads to picks.
Ah... so even statistical proof doesn't work for you. AND you have a horrible memory. Eli was mind-bogglingly bad at times in his first 4 years. Remember the home game vs Minnesota? THREE pick 6s and 4 Ints... people were calling for his head and he won a Superbowl 12 weeks later.
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Jones is a below average qb on a bad team? Is it so wrong to say that both are true? Jones isn't the worst starting qb in the league and he isn't in the top starting half of the league in terms of qbs. In his last 19 starts (not 20 because of the Cowboys) he's thrown 15td passes and has lead a minimally productive offense. Some of that - not all - is attributable to his largely below average play.
Taylor Heinicke has been a better qb this year than Daniel Jones, statistically and in the W/L column. Does anyone consider Taylor Heinicke the long term answer for WFT? If not, I am not sure how you confidently say a qb like Jones is the answer for the NYG.
It can be that but you nor I know it because the guy hasn't lined up for one snap in his career with an even AVERAGE offensive line...
So you hate us terrible Giants fans, yet you waste your time interacting with us on a Giants message board? And, we are terrible because we want to see a product be something more than mediocre to bad? Cool.
I guess if you do, you have an argument.
But from my eyes, I saw yet another quarterback with a shitty offensive line and defense around him.
What about 2012-2015 then? Was Eli washed up then too?
2017-18: yes, I thought Eli was washed up. I thought he played pretty badly in the 2017 regular season, had a good playoff game, and then was basically a replacement level player afterwards.
During that 2017-19 period, two players replaced him in the starting lineup. Geno Smith played about the same level as Eli v the Raiders. A rookie Daniel Jones was distinctly more exciting, just a more productive player.
Those A/B switches support the point the Eli was basically done after the Packers wild card game.
i can buy that cousins is an average-to-good NFL quarterback.
since cousins been a starter, he's thrown an average of 29 passing TDs a season over his six seasons (and has 13 passing TDs so far this season).
jones had 11 TD passes last year and has four this year through six games.
jones is a long, long way from kirk cousins level production (kirk cousins was also a 4th round draft pick).
under judge and garrett, jones has been a marginal player who cannot put points on the board.
even in that dreadful 2017 season where eli was benched for geno smith, and with beckham, brandon marshall, pugh, fluker, and richburg all on IR, and with engram and shepard missing half the season with injuries, a supposedly "washed" eli threw 19 TD passes under slickback mac.
jones needs to do a hell of a lot better. outside of some 4th quarter/OT heroics in the saints game, he's shown nothing in his time under judge/garrett.
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because I do think people aren't really thinking anymore but just picking sides is this:
A couple of weeks ago Daniel wins "NFC Player of the Week" (second or third time he's won it) and his supporters are yelling "See, I told you he's a good one!"
Now he's coming off a 4-turnover game and his detractors are yelling, "See, I told you he's a bad one!"
It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
Our fanbase is horrible and it was horrible when we were winning Superbowls with Eli. Our fans are a bunch of whiny, entitled bitches and literally 90% of the whining is pure "in the moment, emotional" garnage that isn't even well thought-out.
How many games has Jones come from behind games had and been a large reason why we won and how many that he failed to score TDs in the red zone or he turned the ball over and was a big part of the reason we lost?
that 05 san diego loss was when i knew eli was the goods. played his ass off that game.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
The eras weren't that different.
And Eli had a vastly superior team (offense and defense) and coaching staff around him. But his detractors will never admit to that.
Those who say the Eli comparisons are not legit also amusingly ignore the fact that Eli was a losing quarterback (well under .500) during the second half of his career because he had the same surrounding talent issues that Daniel Jones now has.
Very true. I haven't made my mind up yet and I'm by far no expert but neither are most on here. The bashing is ridiculous.
I think John Mara would have been ecstatic if Eli could have played in meaningful games in December with playoff hopes alive. Getting in would be gravy. I think this is what he had in mind when Dave took over.
Both sides on this debate have dug in their heels and don't care about "facts" or "evidence."
The eras weren't that different.
And Eli had a vastly superior team (offense and defense) and coaching staff around him. But his detractors will never admit to that.
Those who say the Eli comparisons are not legit also amusingly ignore the fact that Eli was a losing quarterback (well under .500) during the second half of his career because he had the same surrounding talent issues that Daniel Jones now has.
There's an enormous amount of facts and evidence that Jones isn't particularly good. It's been cited here many times: poor stats, low scoring, a terrible record as a starter. General poor performance.
The arguments in his favor stray away from facts and towards conjecture:
- placing blame on the supporting cast
- comparisons to other players in Giants' history
- scenarios where more successful players are swapped with Jones ("You think Lamar Jackson would be as successful if he were on the Giants instead of the Ravens?")
It has not worked out here with Daniel Jones. That is a fact. It is not an opinion.
The issue now is moving forward. Eli was on a 6 year contract and contacts then for QB's were very big relative to the cap.
Giants have to make a decision on Jones and whether or not he is worth the very big contract coming up. So the question is not what he did not have but what do you forecast for him the next 3-4 years. It becomes very hard to build all the pieces when you lay out that contract. So how one answers that is I guess where you stand with Jones.
And who can blame him? He’d worked with gameplanning authorities like Tom Coughlin and Gilbride and now the coach was Ben McAdoo? What? They weren’t winning with McAdoo and Eli knew it.