Not much detail yet. A repeat of what happened to Brandon Lee would seem the most likely. Otherwise either the gun blew apart or Baldwin did something really really reckless and stupid.
Not much detail yet. A repeat of what happened to Brandon Lee would seem the most likely. Otherwise either the gun blew apart or Baldwin did something really really reckless and stupid.
Guns are dangerous things.
Actors who are handed prop guns are never doing anything reckless and stupid. Prop guns are the responsibility of the prop weapons expert. When a prop gun is handed to an actor it is expected to contain blanks. In the case of Brandon Lee on the Crow set authorities concluded that a lead tip had been lodged in the gun's chamber from a previous usage of the gun with live ammo.
It is foolish to even speculate Baldwin did something stupid. He's an actor not a prop master.
Actors who are handed prop guns are never doing anything reckless and stupid. Prop guns are the responsibility of the prop weapons expert. When a prop gun is handed to an actor it is expected to contain blanks. In the case of Brandon Lee on the Crow set authorities concluded that a lead tip had been lodged in the gun's chamber from a previous usage of the gun with live ammo.
It is foolish to even speculate Baldwin did something stupid. He's an actor not a prop master.
I’m not accusing him, I just laid out the possibilities. And an actor doing something stupid absolutely can and has been a cause of death on set. Actor Jon-Erik Hexum killed himself by handling a prop gun stupidly.
I thought pretty much every movie and tv used cgi gunfire these days.
Actors who are handed prop guns are never doing anything reckless and stupid. Prop guns are the responsibility of the prop weapons expert. When a prop gun is handed to an actor it is expected to contain blanks. In the case of Brandon Lee on the Crow set authorities concluded that a lead tip had been lodged in the gun's chamber from a previous usage of the gun with live ammo.
It is foolish to even speculate Baldwin did something stupid. He's an actor not a prop master.
I’m not accusing him, I just laid out the possibilities. And an actor doing something stupid absolutely can and has been a cause of death on set. Actor Jon-Erik Hexum killed himself by handling a prop gun stupidly.
What you're suggesting is basically impossible. For Baldwin to be responsible
he was either handed a gun with a live round, and he knew it and behaved recklessly, or he walked up to the DP and director and fired blanks at them with the gun inches from their bodies, which is insane. Most Likely a mistake was made with the firearm before it was handed to Baldwin, and either a live round was placed in the gun or lodged in the chamber, or debris was in the chamber and ejected when the blank was fired. There are protocols to prevent this, which is why it hasn't happened in 30 years.
you wonder if the camera was still rolling when this went down.
As I understand it, the filmmakers on The Crow destroyed the footage of the accident that killed Brandon Lee. Which you can understand, certainly in hindsight. If it had ever been developed, you just know it would've found its way onto LiveLeak years ago. Even the Bud Dwyer live TV suicide is out there if you know where to look.
You don't want this shit to ever see the light of day, but you also hope if there's anything to be learned from it, the right people do get a look at it.
The article it sounds like it happened in the middle of a scene, so not a case of Baldwin messing around. I’m sure everyone will be investigated to assess who had access to the gun before the fatal incident
comments on here? This wasn't self defense, this was a movie where pointing a gun at someone on set happens thousands of times per year. Someone didn't do their job properly is what it sounds like.
comments on here? This wasn't self defense, this was a movie where pointing a gun at someone on set happens thousands of times per year. Someone didn't do their job properly is what it sounds like.
It’s basic firearm usage. Use it as a toy or a prop, crap like this happens
Baldwin did not kill anyone. A piece of equipment malfunctioned either by mistake, catastrophic failure or by inappropriate preparation by the individual in charge of the prop. Baldwin had no intention of harm. No one believes he had intent. He was handed a tool and it malfunctioned.
He has turned into a vile curmudgeon in recent years but I doubt he had a minute of sleep last night.
comments on here? This wasn't self defense, this was a movie where pointing a gun at someone on set happens thousands of times per year. Someone didn't do their job properly is what it sounds like.
It’s basic firearm usage. Use it as a toy or a prop, crap like this happens
Right, that explains all those daily accidental shootings on movie and TV sets.
never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
LOL even this is political apparently.
Why are these comments even necessary? Why does everything have to resort to these type of snarky comments? Someone just died due to a horrible accident? We can’t even mourn the loss of life anymore without people interjecting shitty comments? That’s what the anonymity of the internet affords people I guess
never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
LOL even this is political apparently.
Why are these comments even necessary? Why does everything have to resort to these type of snarky comments? Someone just died due to a horrible accident? We can’t even mourn the loss of life anymore without people interjecting shitty comments? That’s what the anonymity of the internet affords people I guess
Why are you easily offended? Sorry to hurt your delicate sensibilities, buttercup. I hardly think it’s controversial to point out that guns shouldn’t be used as toys or props, and especially by an industry where a large number of them think they can lecture everyone else. I completely agree it is a tragic loss of life and should have never happened. But, again that’s why firearms should be taken a little more seriously and not used by clowns to make a buck
from a live bullet or from the impact of a blank or dummy bullet?
So preventable and tragic, I'd be stuck on anger in the 5 stages of grief for a long time if the deceased was someone I cared about.
And I'd want answers - there are supposed to be very stringent protocols in place for using firearms on entertainment industry sets. Normally I'm not a bloodthirsty blame zealot, in this case I would be. Someone fucked up and it cost a life.
from a live bullet or from the impact of a blank or dummy bullet?
So preventable and tragic, I'd be stuck on anger in the 5 stages of grief for a long time if the deceased was someone I cared about.
And I'd want answers - there are supposed to be very stringent protocols in place for using firearms on entertainment industry sets. Normally I'm not a bloodthirsty blame zealot, in this case I would be. Someone fucked up and it cost a life.
Investigation is not complete. With Brandon Lee, I believe a live round got stuck in the firearm, and became dislodged when a blank was fired
comments on here? This wasn't self defense, this was a movie where pointing a gun at someone on set happens thousands of times per year. Someone didn't do their job properly is what it sounds like.
It’s basic firearm usage. Use it as a toy or a prop, crap like this happens
Not really. I just pointed out that Hollywood should not be using these deadly weapons as props/toys. I don’t think it was a particularly controversial statement. I have trained extensively with blank and live ammunition. I do know what I’m talking about. If people want to argue or quibble on them, it’s on them. It’s a tragic loss of life and should have never happened. I don’t think it’s “looking for an argument” to have that opinion
Because it would offend him to be called buttercup so what more devastating putdown could there be?
Imagine reading a story about a tragic death on a movie set and think, "YES! This is where I'll make my incredibly clever point that Hollywood should not lecture me about guns! It's time!"
The internet is such a profoundly dumb place most of the time.
RE: Guy who's offended by Hollywood lectures calls people buttercup
Because it would offend him to be called buttercup so what more devastating putdown could there be?
Imagine reading a story about a tragic death on a movie set and think, "YES! This is where I'll make my incredibly clever point that Hollywood should not lecture me about guns! It's time!"
The internet is such a profoundly dumb place most of the time.
Sorry you don’t understand the hypocrisy with Hollywood. It’s not a very difficult concept to understand.
RE: RE: Guy who's offended by Hollywood lectures calls people buttercup
Because it would offend him to be called buttercup so what more devastating putdown could there be?
Imagine reading a story about a tragic death on a movie set and think, "YES! This is where I'll make my incredibly clever point that Hollywood should not lecture me about guns! It's time!"
The internet is such a profoundly dumb place most of the time.
Sorry you don’t understand the hypocrisy with Hollywood. It’s not a very difficult concept to understand.
You think the problem is I don't understand the nuance of your point? hahahahahahahahaha ok, buttercup.
never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
LOL even this is political apparently.
Why are these comments even necessary? Why does everything have to resort to these type of snarky comments? Someone just died due to a horrible accident? We can’t even mourn the loss of life anymore without people interjecting shitty comments? That’s what the anonymity of the internet affords people I guess
Why are you easily offended? Sorry to hurt your delicate sensibilities, buttercup. I hardly think it’s controversial to point out that guns shouldn’t be used as toys or props, and especially by an industry where a large number of them think they can lecture everyone else. I completely agree it is a tragic loss of life and should have never happened. But, again that’s why firearms should be taken a little more seriously and not used by clowns to make a buck
Your comment was dumb as fuck.
It's a movie set. What, you think guns shouldn't be allowed in movies? Your OP was sanctimonious bullshit drivel, with the sole purpose of getting in a dig at "Hollywood".
Your follow-up with "offended" and "buttercup" just drives it home.
Btw, hope I'm not coming off as a "snowflake" by telling you how mind numbingly stupid your initial comment was.
never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
LOL even this is political apparently.
Why are these comments even necessary? Why does everything have to resort to these type of snarky comments? Someone just died due to a horrible accident? We can’t even mourn the loss of life anymore without people interjecting shitty comments? That’s what the anonymity of the internet affords people I guess
Why are you easily offended? Sorry to hurt your delicate sensibilities, buttercup. I hardly think it’s controversial to point out that guns shouldn’t be used as toys or props, and especially by an industry where a large number of them think they can lecture everyone else. I completely agree it is a tragic loss of life and should have never happened. But, again that’s why firearms should be taken a little more seriously and not used by clowns to make a buck
Your comment was dumb as fuck.
It's a movie set. What, you think guns shouldn't be allowed in movies? Your OP was sanctimonious bullshit drivel, with the sole purpose of getting in a dig at "Hollywood".
Your follow-up with "offended" and "buttercup" just drives it home.
Btw, hope I'm not coming off as a "snowflake" by telling you how mind numbingly stupid your initial comment was.
No, Hollywood should not be using deadly weapons that they obviously don’t know how to use properly
Point a weapon, fake or real, unless you intend to inflict bodily harm, or death. And I own plenty.
I could just as soon kill you with a #2 Pencil.
This is true, very good advice, but in this case, maybe they were filming, and the script called for Baldwin to point the gun towards the camera?
Producer is right, this is 100% on the props crew for not properly disengaging the weapon. What a horrible tragedy. I'm really surprised they even use real guns. With all of the money tied up in making a major studio film, why not have a gun that cannot take real ammo?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: First rule of having a firearm
never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
I completely agree. The fact that a studio that spends millions making, and insuring, a major production, and they can't commission a gun manufacturer to produce a gun that only uses blanks? Poundwise and penny foolish.
But the kind that fires blanks, are real guns with blank ammo. A blank is a wad of sstuffing with a charge. On all film sets where prop guns are used there is an expert, usually an armorer, or a prop master in charge of the prop guns.
Blanks are used, not because it is cheaper, but because it looks better, more realistic.
The DP and director were likely hit during filming, or rehearsal, in a scene where the gun was pointed in the direction of the camera. There is no chance that Baldwin, the actor, did anything illegal or irresponsible with a prop gun on set, no matter what you think of him politically.
He is also a producer on the film, so if the film cur any corners on gun safety, intentional or unintentional, Baldwin the producer could be on the hook for that, more likely civil exposure than criminal.
How could Baldwin discharge twice ?
The recoil from the first shot should have been a warning
We'll find out after the investigation but it could be that a live round was in the gun, without his knowledge, and passed through the DP then hit the director. Or if it was a blank with debris in the chamber, there is less recoil. Or it could be that whatever was fired hit the camera or some other equipment and sent debris flying.
W. Earl Brown described how the process works on set
How could Baldwin discharge twice ?
The recoil from the first shot should have been a warning
you still get a recoil with a blank - it has a charge (though not to the point of live ammo - depending on the firearm), just no projectile.
either there was live ammo or another projectile in the chamber.
but I'd definitely investigate this, seems like basic safety protocol 101.
which is why you need to rule out intent or even negligence. someone died I wouldn't simply accept, oh well it was an accident.
There is significantly less recoil when firing a blank than a live round. But anyway it is immaterial. Someone not familiar with firearms might not know the difference and might expect a blank to fire with recoil.
How could Baldwin discharge twice ?
The recoil from the first shot should have been a warning
you still get a recoil with a blank - it has a charge (though not to the point of live ammo - depending on the firearm), just no projectile.
either there was live ammo or another projectile in the chamber.
but I'd definitely investigate this, seems like basic safety protocol 101.
which is why you need to rule out intent or even negligence. someone died I wouldn't simply accept, oh well it was an accident.
Of course there should be an investigation but do you really think Alec Baldwin intended to murder someone on set?
no, I don't think that, but my thoughts shouldn't be the determining factor. It wouldn't be the first time an accident was actually murder or more to the point I brought up - negligence which may not be murder but it could be negligent homicide or manslaughter - if it is worthy of any of those charges. Or maybe it was an innocent accident.
never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
Funny that you start your post with a lecture about the proper use of firearms.
I actually know how to properly use firearms. It is a universal axiom of firearms that you don't point them at anyone you don't intend to kill. It really is not that hard to comprehend.
never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
Funny that you start your post with a lecture about the proper use of firearms.
I actually know how to properly use firearms. It is a universal axiom of firearms that you don't point them at anyone you don't intend to kill. It really is not that hard to comprehend.
Honestly, you sound like a fool. Weapons on set are supposed to be modified so that they are virtually non-lethal and can be fired around people, under supervision, safely. They're not just taking a weapon out of your locker and firing it. You may know a lot about firearms, but you know absolutely nothing about firearm props on movie sets. Your comments are ignorant.
never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
Funny that you start your post with a lecture about the proper use of firearms.
I actually know how to properly use firearms. It is a universal axiom of firearms that you don't point them at anyone you don't intend to kill. It really is not that hard to comprehend.
Honestly, you sound like a fool. Weapons on set are supposed to be modified so that they are virtually non-lethal and can be fired around people, under supervision, safely. They're not just taking a weapon out of your locker and firing it. You may know a lot about firearms, but you know absolutely nothing about firearm props on movie sets. Your comments are ignorant.
My comments are not remotely out of ignorance. I am military trained, seven years in, and a combat veteran. Again, any weapon (whether blank, live, etc.) should be treated as if it could kill. You do not point any weapon at another human being unless you intend to kill them. You may allege my advice is foolish, but if my advice was followed, there would not have been a death here.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: First rule of having a firearm
never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
Funny that you start your post with a lecture about the proper use of firearms.
I actually know how to properly use firearms. It is a universal axiom of firearms that you don't point them at anyone you don't intend to kill. It really is not that hard to comprehend.
Honestly, you sound like a fool. Weapons on set are supposed to be modified so that they are virtually non-lethal and can be fired around people, under supervision, safely. They're not just taking a weapon out of your locker and firing it. You may know a lot about firearms, but you know absolutely nothing about firearm props on movie sets. Your comments are ignorant.
My comments are not remotely out of ignorance. I am military trained, seven years in, and a combat veteran. Again, any weapon (whether blank, live, etc.) should be treated as if it could kill. You do not point any weapon at another human being unless you intend to kill them. You may allege my advice is foolish, but if my advice was followed, there would not have been a death here.
This is stupid. For a century of moviemaking, actors have pointed guns at each other. There has been, what? 3 incidents?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: First rule of having a firearm
never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
Funny that you start your post with a lecture about the proper use of firearms.
I actually know how to properly use firearms. It is a universal axiom of firearms that you don't point them at anyone you don't intend to kill. It really is not that hard to comprehend.
Honestly, you sound like a fool. Weapons on set are supposed to be modified so that they are virtually non-lethal and can be fired around people, under supervision, safely. They're not just taking a weapon out of your locker and firing it. You may know a lot about firearms, but you know absolutely nothing about firearm props on movie sets. Your comments are ignorant.
My comments are not remotely out of ignorance. I am military trained, seven years in, and a combat veteran. Again, any weapon (whether blank, live, etc.) should be treated as if it could kill. You do not point any weapon at another human being unless you intend to kill them. You may allege my advice is foolish, but if my advice was followed, there would not have been a death here.
Ok. I certainly respect your service and firearms expertise, but movie making is not combat. Movies hire firearms experts to neutralize the killing potential of guns. When done properly a blank can be fired safely on set.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: First rule of having a firearm
My comments are not remotely out of ignorance. I am military trained, seven years in, and a combat veteran. Again, any weapon (whether blank, live, etc.) should be treated as if it could kill. You do not point any weapon at another human being unless you intend to kill them. You may allege my advice is foolish, but if my advice was followed, there would not have been a death here.
So, in those seven years, you never once participated in a training excerise firing blanks with an adapter on the muzzle?
In the email that IATSE Local 44 sent to its membership, Secretary-Treasurer Anthony Pawluc described the event as an “an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halnya Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza … Local 44 has confirmed that the Props, Set Decoration, Special Effects and Construction Departments were staffed by New Mexico crew members. There were no Local 44 members on the call sheet.”
In the email that IATSE Local 44 sent to its membership, Secretary-Treasurer Anthony Pawluc described the event as an “an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halnya Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza … Local 44 has confirmed that the Props, Set Decoration, Special Effects and Construction Departments were staffed by New Mexico crew members. There were no Local 44 members on the call sheet.”
Bizarre. Still not clear what is meant by "a live single round was accidentally fired." That reads as a negligent discharge, but it could be poorly written and could mean that he accidentally shot a live round, rather than a blank.
Or it could be exactly what happened in the Brandan Lee
Where the tip of a dummy bullet got lodged in the barrel from a previous usage and then blanks were loaded.
A blank + dummy bullet = real bullet.
If that was the situation, it should not have been written as "an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired." Because that reads like a negligent discharge, in which Baldwin could face criminal repercussions.
RE: RE: Or it could be exactly what happened in the Brandan Lee
Where the tip of a dummy bullet got lodged in the barrel from a previous usage and then blanks were loaded.
A blank + dummy bullet = real bullet.
If that was the situation, it should not have been written as "an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired." Because that reads like a negligent discharge, in which Baldwin could face criminal repercussions.
I'm guessing they have no actual information. They just know a prop gun was fired and somebody was shot.
Look 99% this was an accident and the gun was handed to Baldwin with the thinking it was just a blank. There is no chance Baldwin was handling the gun knowing it had a lethal round in it whether it was a live round or dummy+blank. Baldwin won't face any criminal consequences for firing the gun. But he is a producer. Maybe consequences if there was pressure or negligence by the production.
think it's safe to assume this was a bad accident. Civil suits might be coming but unless Alec Baldwin asked for a live bullet and knowingly shot someone I don't see how he's going to get in "trouble". Very sad either way. There are pictures of him distraught and crying while on the phone, I can't imagine how I would feel had that been me.
In the email that IATSE Local 44 sent to its membership, Secretary-Treasurer Anthony Pawluc described the event as an “an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halnya Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza … Local 44 has confirmed that the Props, Set Decoration, Special Effects and Construction Departments were staffed by New Mexico crew members. There were no Local 44 members on the call sheet.”
I’ve had some experience both using and working with prop guns on movie sets. I haven’t seen any that are capable of firing real ammo, unless they might have used real guns with blanks which is quite dangerous as they still shoot out particles that can do serious damage. Typically, pRop guns are essentially cap guns that are made to look like a real gun, and even operate the same. But the prop gun ammo is totally different and the prop guns aren’t built to fire real ammo from my experience. This is an odd report and story.
think it's safe to assume this was a bad accident. Civil suits might be coming but unless Alec Baldwin asked for a live bullet and knowingly shot someone I don't see how he's going to get in "trouble". Very sad either way. There are pictures of him distraught and crying while on the phone, I can't imagine how I would feel had that been me.
Indeed. He killed someone by accident. I am certain it's a hard thing to live with.
RE: RE: RE: Or it could be exactly what happened in the Brandan Lee
Where the tip of a dummy bullet got lodged in the barrel from a previous usage and then blanks were loaded.
A blank + dummy bullet = real bullet.
If that was the situation, it should not have been written as "an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired." Because that reads like a negligent discharge, in which Baldwin could face criminal repercussions.
I'm guessing they have no actual information. They just know a prop gun was fired and somebody was shot.
Look 99% this was an accident and the gun was handed to Baldwin with the thinking it was just a blank. There is no chance Baldwin was handling the gun knowing it had a lethal round in it whether it was a live round or dummy+blank. Baldwin won't face any criminal consequences for firing the gun. But he is a producer. Maybe consequences if there was pressure or negligence by the production.
I agree that it is doubtful it is a situation that Baldwin is facing criminal consquences. Though he is notoriously a hothead with a violent temper, I sincerely doubt he intended any harm, and he was reportedly extremely and understandably distraught.
My point was that I find that statement strange in its wording, as the wording makes is appear as if was a negligent discharge of a known live weapon by Baldwin. Which, depending on the circumstances, there could be criminal liability. Regardless of intent, one can still be charged criminally for negligently discharging a firearm.
In the email that IATSE Local 44 sent to its membership, Secretary-Treasurer Anthony Pawluc described the event as an “an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halnya Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza … Local 44 has confirmed that the Props, Set Decoration, Special Effects and Construction Departments were staffed by New Mexico crew members. There were no Local 44 members on the call sheet.”
I’ve had some experience both using and working with prop guns on movie sets. I haven’t seen any that are capable of firing real ammo, unless they might have used real guns with blanks which is quite dangerous as they still shoot out particles that can do serious damage. Typically, pRop guns are essentially cap guns that are made to look like a real gun, and even operate the same. But the prop gun ammo is totally different and the prop guns aren’t built to fire real ammo from my experience. This is an odd report and story.
Guns that fire blanks are generally real guns, not cap guns. There are a variety of other prop guns but make no mistake this was probably a real gun as was the gun in the Brandan Lee incident.
think it's safe to assume this was a bad accident. Civil suits might be coming but unless Alec Baldwin asked for a live bullet and knowingly shot someone I don't see how he's going to get in "trouble". Very sad either way. There are pictures of him distraught and crying while on the phone, I can't imagine how I would feel had that been me.
If an individual negligently discharges a firearm and kills somebody, they can be charged criminally depending on the circumstances and laws of the locality. It will be much lesser charges than if they intended to kill, of course.
are first, did Baldwin know there was a live round. And if he did know it was live rounds, what were the circumstances of the discharge.
If it was a BL situation (live round dislodged while shooting blanks), then obviously no criminal liability (except perhaps on the part of the expert in charge of the weapon)
In the email that IATSE Local 44 sent to its membership, Secretary-Treasurer Anthony Pawluc described the event as an “an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halnya Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza … Local 44 has confirmed that the Props, Set Decoration, Special Effects and Construction Departments were staffed by New Mexico crew members. There were no Local 44 members on the call sheet.”
Bizarre. Still not clear what is meant by "a live single round was accidentally fired." That reads as a negligent discharge, but it could be poorly written and could mean that he accidentally shot a live round, rather than a blank.
It sounds to me like the union is blaming the set for having non-union staff handling the firearms.
If it was a BL situation (live round dislodged while shooting blanks), then obviously no criminal liability (except perhaps on the part of the expert in charge of the weapon)
Did Alec Baldwin bang your girlfriend or something? We've got one person dead, one injured, and another (Baldwin) whose life is forever damaged - sounds like plenty of suffering already.
I hardly think it’s controversial to point out that guns shouldn’t be used as toys or props, and especially by an industry where a large number of them think they can lecture everyone else.
Sounds like you take great pleasure in pointing out some "do as we say, not as we do" hypocrisy of those Hollywood elitists, as if this wouldn't have happened if they merely followed the advice they dispense.
But that likely doesn't fit here given that this seemed to have happened during filming a scene. Maybe it was one of those scenes where a character fired his gun away from his victim as a warning.
8:44 AM PT -- 10/21 -- Alec Baldwin is speaking for the first time since the tragic accident, saying, "There are no words to convey my shock and sadness regarding the tragic accident that took the life of Halyna Hutchins, a wife, mother and deeply admired colleague of ours. I'm fully cooperating with the police investigation to address how this tragedy occurred."
He continues, "I am in touch with with her husband, offering my support to him and his family. My heart is broken for her husband, their son, and all who knew and loved Halyna."
If it was a BL situation (live round dislodged while shooting blanks), then obviously no criminal liability (except perhaps on the part of the expert in charge of the weapon)
Did Alec Baldwin bang your girlfriend or something? We've got one person dead, one injured, and another (Baldwin) whose life is forever damaged - sounds like plenty of suffering already.
That's a pretty grotesque question. Though many of these Hollywood types do rape and sexually assault women, no, Alec Baldwin did not rape my girlfriend, as I don't have one. I am married, and no, Alec Baldwin did not rape my wife. Thanks for asking this ridiculous question which has nothing to do with anything.
In the email that IATSE Local 44 sent to its membership, Secretary-Treasurer Anthony Pawluc described the event as an “an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halnya Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza … Local 44 has confirmed that the Props, Set Decoration, Special Effects and Construction Departments were staffed by New Mexico crew members. There were no Local 44 members on the call sheet.”
I’ve had some experience both using and working with prop guns on movie sets. I haven’t seen any that are capable of firing real ammo, unless they might have used real guns with blanks which is quite dangerous as they still shoot out particles that can do serious damage. Typically, pRop guns are essentially cap guns that are made to look like a real gun, and even operate the same. But the prop gun ammo is totally different and the prop guns aren’t built to fire real ammo from my experience. This is an odd report and story.
Guns that fire blanks are generally real guns, not cap guns. There are a variety of other prop guns but make no mistake this was probably a real gun as was the gun in the Brandan Lee incident.
Precisely the point I was making about why they are dangerous to use on set. You have a gun that has a working chamber, and may have been used for shooting live rounds. If they aren’t properly cleaned and maintained on set and being used at other actors, cameramen that is negligence on the producers.
My father and brother used to do civil war reenacting, and at events would often demonstrate to people how dangerous firing an unloaded weapon at “x” range is. They would put up a whole raw roaster chicken at 8-10 yards or so away and the thing would blow apart to pieces from particles and matter in the barrel. Sounds like to me the producers on this set didn’t follow standard safety guidelines, it’s truly a sad story as this could have been so easily avoided.
8:44 AM PT -- 10/21 -- Alec Baldwin is speaking for the first time since the tragic accident, saying, "There are no words to convey my shock and sadness regarding the tragic accident that took the life of Halyna Hutchins, a wife, mother and deeply admired colleague of ours. I'm fully cooperating with the police investigation to address how this tragedy occurred."
He continues, "I am in touch with with her husband, offering my support to him and his family. My heart is broken for her husband, their son, and all who knew and loved Halyna."
thanks for posting.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: First rule of having a firearm
I hardly think it’s controversial to point out that guns shouldn’t be used as toys or props, and especially by an industry where a large number of them think they can lecture everyone else.
Sounds like you take great pleasure in pointing out some "do as we say, not as we do" hypocrisy of those Hollywood elitists, as if this wouldn't have happened if they merely followed the advice they dispense.
But that likely doesn't fit here given that this seemed to have happened during filming a scene. Maybe it was one of those scenes where a character fired his gun away from his victim as a warning.
In the email that IATSE Local 44 sent to its membership, Secretary-Treasurer Anthony Pawluc described the event as an “an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halnya Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza … Local 44 has confirmed that the Props, Set Decoration, Special Effects and Construction Departments were staffed by New Mexico crew members. There were no Local 44 members on the call sheet.”
I’ve had some experience both using and working with prop guns on movie sets. I haven’t seen any that are capable of firing real ammo, unless they might have used real guns with blanks which is quite dangerous as they still shoot out particles that can do serious damage. Typically, pRop guns are essentially cap guns that are made to look like a real gun, and even operate the same. But the prop gun ammo is totally different and the prop guns aren’t built to fire real ammo from my experience. This is an odd report and story.
Guns that fire blanks are generally real guns, not cap guns. There are a variety of other prop guns but make no mistake this was probably a real gun as was the gun in the Brandan Lee incident.
Precisely the point I was making about why they are dangerous to use on set. You have a gun that has a working chamber, and may have been used for shooting live rounds. If they aren’t properly cleaned and maintained on set and being used at other actors, cameramen that is negligence on the producers.
My father and brother used to do civil war reenacting, and at events would often demonstrate to people how dangerous firing an unloaded weapon at “x” range is. They would put up a whole raw roaster chicken at 8-10 yards or so away and the thing would blow apart to pieces from particles and matter in the barrel. Sounds like to me the producers on this set didn’t follow standard safety guidelines, it’s truly a sad story as this could have been so easily avoided.
generally what you say here is true, except producers aren't usually gun experts and they have a position on films for handling firearms - armorer.
RE: Or it could be exactly what happened in the Brandan Lee
Where the tip of a dummy bullet got lodged in the barrel from a previous usage and then blanks were loaded.
A blank + dummy bullet = real bullet.
Actually this would have never happened if they had used dummys. On the Crow set they didn’t have dummys for whatever reason. Instead, a prop guy took real ammunition and removed the powder to make homemade dummys. Problem was, they still had primers. At some point someone pulled the trigger on a homemade dummy. The small explosive force was enough to dislodge the bullet from the cartridge, which got stuck in the barrel. No one noticed when the rounds were removed and replaced with blanks.
RE: Or it could be exactly what happened in the Brandan Lee
Where the tip of a dummy bullet got lodged in the barrel from a previous usage and then blanks were loaded.
A blank + dummy bullet = real bullet.
It just seems unfathomable to me that the barrel of a gun isn't always carefully inspected prior to being accessible on a movie set...
...but then I remember how careless people are, and I feel like we're just lucky that catastrophic disasters don't happen daily due to silly human error.
RE: RE: Or it could be exactly what happened in the Brandan Lee
Where the tip of a dummy bullet got lodged in the barrel from a previous usage and then blanks were loaded.
A blank + dummy bullet = real bullet.
It just seems unfathomable to me that the barrel of a gun isn't always carefully inspected prior to being accessible on a movie set...
...but then I remember how careless people are, and I feel like we're just lucky that catastrophic disasters don't happen daily due to silly human error.
There are good safety protocols, in general, which is why an accident of this nature hasn't happened in 30 years. In the Brandan Lee case the firearms expert left the set and the prop assistant did not know the procedure. But usually the firearms expert disassembles the firearm on set and checks it and shows it to the crew/cast and at least one other member of the crew, usually the AD, inspects the weapon.
RE: RE: Or it could be exactly what happened in the Brandan Lee
Where the tip of a dummy bullet got lodged in the barrel from a previous usage and then blanks were loaded.
A blank + dummy bullet = real bullet.
It just seems unfathomable to me that the barrel of a gun isn't always carefully inspected prior to being accessible on a movie set...
...but then I remember how careless people are, and I feel like we're just lucky that catastrophic disasters don't happen daily due to silly human error.
I recommend the book COMMAND AND CONTROL. About America's near misses with nuclear weapons disasters on our home soil. Very, very well written and an incredible story. One of the best books I ever read. Amazon link - ( New Window )
Ya gotta wonder, why would movies even have guns that are loaded with anything? like why would they even have blanks in there? just have a normal gun with NOTHING inside it and figure out the special effects or the sound or whatever you need to do. Jeez. Brutal.
How some can't have a conversation about any topic without making a political point. Then call others, "Buttercup". Sick burn.
Don't point a gun at anyone you don't intend on killing? So, we should no longer make films involving guns/violence in a country where there are 20,000 gun homicides annually in the US? In an art medium that reflects life?
Perhaps we should replace all firearms in films with #2 pencils, so that gun enthusiasts can utilize a tool with applications other than killing/maiming.
It's the same people ruining all of these threads.
Ya gotta wonder, why would movies even have guns that are loaded with anything? like why would they even have blanks in there? just have a normal gun with NOTHING inside it and figure out the special effects or the sound or whatever you need to do. Jeez. Brutal.
They increasingly do use digital effects to simulate gunfire. But it’s not as realistic for some scenes. You can’t digitally replicate recoil for example.
How some can't have a conversation about any topic without making a political point. Then call others, "Buttercup". Sick burn.
Don't point a gun at anyone you don't intend on killing? So, we should no longer make films involving guns/violence in a country where there are 20,000 gun homicides annually in the US? In an art medium that reflects life?
Perhaps we should replace all firearms in films with #2 pencils, so that gun enthusiasts can utilize a tool with applications other than killing/maiming.
It's the same people ruining all of these threads.
its because of the one pandemic that has plagued this world before Covid. Its called lack of common sense.
W. Earl Brown explains the procedures movie armorers have used ever since The Crow. If those rules are followed, this doesn't happen. Someone handed Baldwin a weapon that he expected to be safe because of these procedures, but it wasn't because the procedures weren't followed.
As producer, he may well be sued as a result, but he isn't going to face any criminal charges.
RE: RE: RE: key questions I have based on that report
If it was a BL situation (live round dislodged while shooting blanks), then obviously no criminal liability (except perhaps on the part of the expert in charge of the weapon)
Did Alec Baldwin bang your girlfriend or something? We've got one person dead, one injured, and another (Baldwin) whose life is forever damaged - sounds like plenty of suffering already.
That's a pretty grotesque question. Though many of these Hollywood types do rape and sexually assault women, no, Alec Baldwin did not rape my girlfriend, as I don't have one. I am married, and no, Alec Baldwin did not rape my wife. Thanks for asking this ridiculous question which has nothing to do with anything.
Man alive, you may want to step away from the keyboard and take a breath…
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: First rule of having a firearm
never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
Funny that you start your post with a lecture about the proper use of firearms.
I actually know how to properly use firearms. It is a universal axiom of firearms that you don't point them at anyone you don't intend to kill. It really is not that hard to comprehend.
Honestly, you sound like a fool. Weapons on set are supposed to be modified so that they are virtually non-lethal and can be fired around people, under supervision, safely. They're not just taking a weapon out of your locker and firing it. You may know a lot about firearms, but you know absolutely nothing about firearm props on movie sets. Your comments are ignorant.
My comments are not remotely out of ignorance. I am military trained, seven years in, and a combat veteran. Again, any weapon (whether blank, live, etc.) should be treated as if it could kill. You do not point any weapon at another human being unless you intend to kill them. You may allege my advice is foolish, but if my advice was followed, there would not have been a death here.
This is stupid. For a century of moviemaking, actors have pointed guns at each other. There has been, what? 3 incidents?
I don't know how many incidents but I guess you can comfort the husband and children with this who have lost a wife and mother.
Clearly protocols were not followed. There should only be one standard. Zero tolerance. This is not a mistake. It is simply gross negligence.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: First rule of having a firearm
never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
Funny that you start your post with a lecture about the proper use of firearms.
I actually know how to properly use firearms. It is a universal axiom of firearms that you don't point them at anyone you don't intend to kill. It really is not that hard to comprehend.
Honestly, you sound like a fool. Weapons on set are supposed to be modified so that they are virtually non-lethal and can be fired around people, under supervision, safely. They're not just taking a weapon out of your locker and firing it. You may know a lot about firearms, but you know absolutely nothing about firearm props on movie sets. Your comments are ignorant.
My comments are not remotely out of ignorance. I am military trained, seven years in, and a combat veteran. Again, any weapon (whether blank, live, etc.) should be treated as if it could kill. You do not point any weapon at another human being unless you intend to kill them. You may allege my advice is foolish, but if my advice was followed, there would not have been a death here.
This is stupid. For a century of moviemaking, actors have pointed guns at each other. There has been, what? 3 incidents?
I don't know how many incidents but I guess you can comfort the husband and children with this who have lost a wife and mother.
Clearly protocols were not followed. There should only be one standard. Zero tolerance. This is not a mistake. It is simply gross negligence.
My point apparently flew over your head and is bouncing around in the right field corner.
W. Earl Brown explains the procedures movie armorers have used ever since The Crow. If those rules are followed, this doesn't happen. Someone handed Baldwin a weapon that he expected to be safe because of these procedures, but it wasn't because the procedures weren't followed.
As producer, he may well be sued as a result, but he isn't going to face any criminal charges.
Yes, but it should be noted there were good safety protocols at the time of The Crow as well but due to a confluence of careless mistakes that tragedy happened.
On March 31, 1993, at EUE Screen Gems Studios in Wilmington, North Carolina, Lee was filming a scene where his character, Eric, is shot after witnessing the beating and rape of his fiancée. Actor Michael Massee's character Funboy fires a .44 Magnum Smith & Wesson Model 629 revolver at Lee as he walks into the room.[5] A previous scene using the same gun had called for inert dummy cartridges fitted with bullets, but no powder or primer, to be loaded in the revolver. For close-up scenes that use a revolver, where the bullets are clearly visible from the front, and do not require the gun to actually be fired, dummy cartridges provide a more realistic appearance than blank rounds, which have no bullet. Instead of purchasing commercial dummy cartridges, the film's prop crew, hampered by time constraints, created their own by pulling the bullets from live rounds, dumping the powder charge, then reinserting the bullets.[6][7] However, they unknowingly left the live primer in place at the rear of the cartridge. At some point during filming, the revolver was apparently discharged with one of these improperly-deactivated cartridges in the chamber, setting off the primer with enough force to drive the bullet partway into the barrel, where it became stuck (a condition known as a squib load). The prop crew either failed to notice or failed to recognize the significance of this issue.
In the fatal scene, which called for the revolver to be actually fired at Lee from a distance of 12–15 feet, the dummy cartridges were exchanged for blank rounds, which feature a live powder charge and primer, but no bullet, thus allowing the gun to be fired without the risk of an actual projectile. As the production company had sent the firearms specialist home early, responsibility for the guns was given to a prop assistant who was not aware of the rule for checking all firearms before and after any handling. Therefore, the barrel was not checked for obstructions when it came time to load it with the blank rounds.[6][7] Since the bullet from the dummy round was already trapped in the barrel, this caused the .44 Magnum bullet to be fired out of the barrel with virtually the same force as if the gun had been loaded with a live round, and it struck Lee in the abdomen, mortally wounding him.[8][9] He was rushed to the New Hanover Regional Medical Center in Wilmington, where he underwent six hours of surgery. However, attempts to save him were unsuccessful, and Lee was pronounced dead at 1:03 pm EST on March 31, 1993, at the age of 28. The shooting was ruled an accident.
Do you want to prosecute Alec Baldwin for firing a gun he assumed was safely prepped by the prop master or armorer?
That would be like prosecuting the driver of a car that had faulty brakes from the production line.
Even if someone preparing the gun made a mistake, Baldwin should have never aimed the gun at anyone.
It is his job to point the deactivated gun and shoot where he is told. it is an incredibly obtuse position to lay blame on an actor for firing a prop gun on a movie set.
Do you want to prosecute Alec Baldwin for firing a gun he assumed was safely prepped by the prop master or armorer?
That would be like prosecuting the driver of a car that had faulty brakes from the production line.
Even if someone preparing the gun made a mistake, Baldwin should have never aimed the gun at anyone.
Maybe he wasn’t pointing it at another actor and there happened to be a lot of people congregating behind the camera where the gun was pointed. I would lay blame on whomever was responsible for sourcing and handing Baldwin the prop not the actor.
Do you want to prosecute Alec Baldwin for firing a gun he assumed was safely prepped by the prop master or armorer?
That would be like prosecuting the driver of a car that had faulty brakes from the production line.
I did not say anything in regards to Baldwin. Simply said when you are dealing with any type of weapon whether you have live or blank rounds involved there should be no expectation that a "accident can happen". You should have a series of protocols and safety briefs in place. Now you have to investigate and hold accountable whoever is responsible for that. It is pretty simple.
In your example with brakes, I surely would hope that you have several checkpoints to follow to ensure safety after coming off a production line.
Do you want to prosecute Alec Baldwin for firing a gun he assumed was safely prepped by the prop master or armorer?
That would be like prosecuting the driver of a car that had faulty brakes from the production line.
I did not say anything in regards to Baldwin. Simply said when you are dealing with any type of weapon whether you have live or blank rounds involved there should be no expectation that a "accident can happen". You should have a series of protocols and safety briefs in place. Now you have to investigate and hold accountable whoever is responsible for that. It is pretty simple.
In your example with brakes, I surely would hope that you have several checkpoints to follow to ensure safety after coming off a production line.
for sure there are safety protocols. But tragedies happen in spite of protocols. Look at the Brandan Lee example I posted above.
Do you want to prosecute Alec Baldwin for firing a gun he assumed was safely prepped by the prop master or armorer?
That would be like prosecuting the driver of a car that had faulty brakes from the production line.
I did not say anything in regards to Baldwin. Simply said when you are dealing with any type of weapon whether you have live or blank rounds involved there should be no expectation that a "accident can happen". You should have a series of protocols and safety briefs in place. Now you have to investigate and hold accountable whoever is responsible for that. It is pretty simple.
In your example with brakes, I surely would hope that you have several checkpoints to follow to ensure safety after coming off a production line.
There already IS a series of protocols in place as outlined by the link Greg posted. Someone fucked up.
that are not followed that results in a life lost that is not a accident. It is gross negligence. I guess some think it is okay to tell those kids who just lost a mother it was a accident.
that are not followed that results in a life lost that is not a accident. It is gross negligence. I guess some think it is okay to tell those kids who just lost a mother it was a accident.
You want to throw everybody who makes a mistake that costs a life in jail? Aren't our jails already full enough? Making a mistake that results in a death isn't necessarily manslaughter. You need some legal predicate.
that are not followed that results in a life lost that is not a accident. It is gross negligence. I guess some think it is okay to tell those kids who just lost a mother it was a accident.
You want to throw everybody who makes a mistake that costs a life in jail? Aren't our jails already full enough? Making a mistake that results in a death isn't necessarily manslaughter. You need some legal predicate.
I never said anything about jail for Baldwin or anyone else. I do not like calling something a "accident" if protocols that were in place that were not followed. If that is a accident to you so be it.
The DP and Director might be close to the camera. They might not be. It has been reported it was during a rehearsal. On smaller films the DP definitely looks through the camera. If it's a rehearsal they might be right on set. Perhaps they were discussing something huddled together and the gun fired accidentally. we have to wait until the investigation is complete.
But no matter which scenario it is, there is no chance Baldwin is carrying a prop gun that he thinks has live ammo. Period. The mistake(s) is made somewhere before the gun hits his hand. And I have been on a variety of different sets across 30+ years.
that are not followed that results in a life lost that is not a accident. It is gross negligence. I guess some think it is okay to tell those kids who just lost a mother it was a accident.
You want to throw everybody who makes a mistake that costs a life in jail? Aren't our jails already full enough? Making a mistake that results in a death isn't necessarily manslaughter. You need some legal predicate.
I never said anything about jail for Baldwin or anyone else. I do not like calling something a "accident" if protocols that were in place that were not followed. If that is a accident to you so be it.
People make mistakes. We're human. Sometimes mistakes cost lives. It's tragic. There will be consequences. Who wants to hire the firearms prop guy who got somebody killed? Who wants to live with the guilt of failing to prep a gun properly that killed another person? There will be consequences.
RE: RE: Just more speculation and pot stirring BUT
1) Don’t trust what you read on Twitter
2) Don’t trust people named “boompolesandbarbells”
3) No one has said that live ammunition was involved
There are many variables on how this tragedy could have happened. Pointing fingers before we know any details at all is pointless and reckless.
Dude, I led off with the fact that it's speculation. I know where its coming from. Everything on this thread is speculation until the facts come out. I was referencing the bit about the position of the director and the cinematographer in relation to where Alec would have been pointing this gun under normal circumstance. As someone who has never been on a set, I think that's a potentially interesting detail.
Making a joke/making it political less than 24 hours after someone loses their life. Stay classy, Adam
My bad. It wasn't meant to be political. But it is a bad joke. I tend to use humor when I hear horrible stories to cope. I'll edit that better on here in the future.
RE: RE: RE: Just more speculation and pot stirring BUT
Dude, I led off with the fact that it's speculation. I know where its coming from. Everything on this thread is speculation until the facts come out. I was referencing the bit about the position of the director and the cinematographer in relation to where Alec would have been pointing this gun under normal circumstance. As someone who has never been on a set, I think that's a potentially interesting detail.
Point is we don’t have any details. A lot of things could have happened. There are numerous ways people out of the line of fire could have been hit. Some kind of shrapnel could have inadvertently gotten into the muzzle. It would have flow off in unpredictable directions when a blank was discharged. Or maybe the gun had a barrel lining that broke apart and sent shrapnel flying. Or a piece of equipment was hit and broke apart sending shrapnel flying. Who knows? Too many variables and no info yet.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Just more speculation and pot stirring BUT
Dude, I led off with the fact that it's speculation. I know where its coming from. Everything on this thread is speculation until the facts come out. I was referencing the bit about the position of the director and the cinematographer in relation to where Alec would have been pointing this gun under normal circumstance. As someone who has never been on a set, I think that's a potentially interesting detail.
Point is we don’t have any details. A lot of things could have happened. There are numerous ways people out of the line of fire could have been hit. Some kind of shrapnel could have inadvertently gotten into the muzzle. It would have flow off in unpredictable directions when a blank was discharged. Or maybe the gun had a barrel lining that broke apart and sent shrapnel flying. Or a piece of equipment was hit and broke apart sending shrapnel flying. Who knows? Too many variables and no info yet.
yes probably. The most likely scenario is a variation of the Brandan Lee episode which I quoted some detail above. Something in the barrel and failure to inspect properly. But it could be something else for sure.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: First rule of having a firearm
production's propmaster was not a member of Local 44, IndieWire reported."
Is this possible? That the gun could contain a live round and it was not inspected beforehand? Link - ( New Window )
If the gun did contain a live round (or something that could serve as a projectile when fired), then it's a virtual certainty that it wasn't inspected beforehand.
production's propmaster was not a member of Local 44, IndieWire reported."
Is this possible? That the gun could contain a live round and it was not inspected beforehand? Link - ( New Window )
On a movie set blanks are referred to as “live” rounds. That may be what he’s referring to. He wasn’t there so I don’t think he’s relaying info specific to this event.
The last one, as a matter of fact: ""The Case of the Final Fade Out" (May 22, 1966). That involved a Movie Star murdered by a prop gun. It was re-done a a TV Movie in 1986, and you can see the TV movie on Youtube (see link below)
The last one, as a matter of fact: ""The Case of the Final Fade Out" (May 22, 1966). That involved a Movie Star murdered by a prop gun. It was re-done a a TV Movie in 1986, and you can see the TV movie on Youtube (see link below)
"The Case of the Shooting Star"
John, that's what this horror reminds me of, an outrageous and improbable tv script that I would ridicule. It's just hard for me to believe this (I'm not suggesting I doubt the truth of it). It just seems like one more crazy case of life imitating art.
Affidavit says assistant director indicated he gave Alec Baldwin a
along with repeated unintended discharges and lack of follow up. Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
The actor was preparing to film a scene in which he pulls a gun out of a holster, according to a source close to the production. Crew members had already shouted “cold gun” on the New Mexico set. The filmmaking team was lining up its camera angles and had yet to retreat to the video village, an on-set area where the crew gathers to watch filming from a distance via a monitor.
Instead, the B-camera operator was on a dolly with a monitor, checking out the potential shots. Hutchins was also looking at the monitor from over the operator’s shoulder, as was the movie’s director, Joel Souza, who was crouching just behind her.
Baldwin removed the gun from its holster once without incident, but the second time he repeated the action, ammunition flew toward the trio around the monitor. The projectile whizzed by the camera operator but penetrated Hutchins near her shoulder, then continued through to Souza. Hutchins immediately fell to the ground as crew members applied pressure to her wound in an attempt to stop the bleeding.
Take the source for what it’s worth, but they are reporting that the gun Baldwin used was taken offset by crew members and used for target practice with live ammunition. Would go a long way to explaining this tragedy if accurate.
Take the source for what it’s worth, but they are reporting that the gun Baldwin used was taken offset by crew members and used for target practice with live ammunition. Would go a long way to explaining this tragedy if accurate. Gun That Killed DP ... ALLEGEDLY USED FOR OFF-SET TARGET PRACTICE - ( New Window )
What the... I mean, that just sounds like it shouldn't be possible on a number of levels.
Apparently Baldwin was previously reckless with the guns
And the AD pretty much didn't follow any of the protocols regarding the firearms.
It was a disaster in the making and unfortunately someone died as a result.
Where are you seeing that about Baldwin? Stories I’ve read had quotes from crew saying he was very careful with weapons.
Yea, I haven't heard anything like this, just the opposite in face. It doesn't even appear Baldwin pulled the trigger. This particular gun was misfiring all week.
Article - ( New Window )
Guns are dangerous things.
#TimesUp
Guns are dangerous things.
Actors who are handed prop guns are never doing anything reckless and stupid. Prop guns are the responsibility of the prop weapons expert. When a prop gun is handed to an actor it is expected to contain blanks. In the case of Brandon Lee on the Crow set authorities concluded that a lead tip had been lodged in the gun's chamber from a previous usage of the gun with live ammo.
It is foolish to even speculate Baldwin did something stupid. He's an actor not a prop master.
Actors who are handed prop guns are never doing anything reckless and stupid. Prop guns are the responsibility of the prop weapons expert. When a prop gun is handed to an actor it is expected to contain blanks. In the case of Brandon Lee on the Crow set authorities concluded that a lead tip had been lodged in the gun's chamber from a previous usage of the gun with live ammo.
It is foolish to even speculate Baldwin did something stupid. He's an actor not a prop master.
I’m not accusing him, I just laid out the possibilities. And an actor doing something stupid absolutely can and has been a cause of death on set. Actor Jon-Erik Hexum killed himself by handling a prop gun stupidly.
Quote:
Actors who are handed prop guns are never doing anything reckless and stupid. Prop guns are the responsibility of the prop weapons expert. When a prop gun is handed to an actor it is expected to contain blanks. In the case of Brandon Lee on the Crow set authorities concluded that a lead tip had been lodged in the gun's chamber from a previous usage of the gun with live ammo.
It is foolish to even speculate Baldwin did something stupid. He's an actor not a prop master.
I’m not accusing him, I just laid out the possibilities. And an actor doing something stupid absolutely can and has been a cause of death on set. Actor Jon-Erik Hexum killed himself by handling a prop gun stupidly.
What you're suggesting is basically impossible. For Baldwin to be responsible
he was either handed a gun with a live round, and he knew it and behaved recklessly, or he walked up to the DP and director and fired blanks at them with the gun inches from their bodies, which is insane. Most Likely a mistake was made with the firearm before it was handed to Baldwin, and either a live round was placed in the gun or lodged in the chamber, or debris was in the chamber and ejected when the blank was fired. There are protocols to prevent this, which is why it hasn't happened in 30 years.
I could just as soon kill you with a #2 Pencil.
I could just as soon kill you with a #2 Pencil.
You could kill me just as easily with a #2 pencil? Why bother owning a gun then?
I could just as soon kill you with a #2 Pencil.
Are you John Wick?
It would be much more expensive to CGI guns.
As I understand it, the filmmakers on The Crow destroyed the footage of the accident that killed Brandon Lee. Which you can understand, certainly in hindsight. If it had ever been developed, you just know it would've found its way onto LiveLeak years ago. Even the Bud Dwyer live TV suicide is out there if you know where to look.
You don't want this shit to ever see the light of day, but you also hope if there's anything to be learned from it, the right people do get a look at it.
I hope he wasn't screwing around because that is something he is going to have to live with for the rest of his life.
Even if he wasn't fooling around this is going to be a burden he will carry till death.
Quote:
Director of photography……also shot the director!
#TimesUp
Making a joke/making it political less than 24 hours after someone loses their life. Stay classy, Adam
LOL even this is political apparently.
It’s basic firearm usage. Use it as a toy or a prop, crap like this happens
He has turned into a vile curmudgeon in recent years but I doubt he had a minute of sleep last night.
Quote:
comments on here? This wasn't self defense, this was a movie where pointing a gun at someone on set happens thousands of times per year. Someone didn't do their job properly is what it sounds like.
It’s basic firearm usage. Use it as a toy or a prop, crap like this happens
Right, that explains all those daily accidental shootings on movie and TV sets.
Quote:
never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
LOL even this is political apparently.
Why are these comments even necessary? Why does everything have to resort to these type of snarky comments? Someone just died due to a horrible accident? We can’t even mourn the loss of life anymore without people interjecting shitty comments? That’s what the anonymity of the internet affords people I guess
It is rather selfish and extremely disrespectful to all involved.
I can't imagine the pain all involved especially Alec are feeling right now.
I incredulous that this could happen. How could a prop gun have live ammunition in it.
This is an unbelievably difficult tragedy for all involved
Quote:
In comment 15424549 KDavies said:
Quote:
never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
LOL even this is political apparently.
Why are these comments even necessary? Why does everything have to resort to these type of snarky comments? Someone just died due to a horrible accident? We can’t even mourn the loss of life anymore without people interjecting shitty comments? That’s what the anonymity of the internet affords people I guess
Why are you easily offended? Sorry to hurt your delicate sensibilities, buttercup. I hardly think it’s controversial to point out that guns shouldn’t be used as toys or props, and especially by an industry where a large number of them think they can lecture everyone else. I completely agree it is a tragic loss of life and should have never happened. But, again that’s why firearms should be taken a little more seriously and not used by clowns to make a buck
So preventable and tragic, I'd be stuck on anger in the 5 stages of grief for a long time if the deceased was someone I cared about.
And I'd want answers - there are supposed to be very stringent protocols in place for using firearms on entertainment industry sets. Normally I'm not a bloodthirsty blame zealot, in this case I would be. Someone fucked up and it cost a life.
So preventable and tragic, I'd be stuck on anger in the 5 stages of grief for a long time if the deceased was someone I cared about.
And I'd want answers - there are supposed to be very stringent protocols in place for using firearms on entertainment industry sets. Normally I'm not a bloodthirsty blame zealot, in this case I would be. Someone fucked up and it cost a life.
Investigation is not complete. With Brandon Lee, I believe a live round got stuck in the firearm, and became dislodged when a blank was fired
Agreed 100%
Quote:
comments on here? This wasn't self defense, this was a movie where pointing a gun at someone on set happens thousands of times per year. Someone didn't do their job properly is what it sounds like.
It’s basic firearm usage. Use it as a toy or a prop, crap like this happens
Alrighty.
Sorry to offend you, buttercup
Not really. I just pointed out that Hollywood should not be using these deadly weapons as props/toys. I don’t think it was a particularly controversial statement. I have trained extensively with blank and live ammunition. I do know what I’m talking about. If people want to argue or quibble on them, it’s on them. It’s a tragic loss of life and should have never happened. I don’t think it’s “looking for an argument” to have that opinion
Imagine reading a story about a tragic death on a movie set and think, "YES! This is where I'll make my incredibly clever point that Hollywood should not lecture me about guns! It's time!"
The internet is such a profoundly dumb place most of the time.
Imagine reading a story about a tragic death on a movie set and think, "YES! This is where I'll make my incredibly clever point that Hollywood should not lecture me about guns! It's time!"
The internet is such a profoundly dumb place most of the time.
Sorry you don’t understand the hypocrisy with Hollywood. It’s not a very difficult concept to understand.
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Because it would offend him to be called buttercup so what more devastating putdown could there be?
Imagine reading a story about a tragic death on a movie set and think, "YES! This is where I'll make my incredibly clever point that Hollywood should not lecture me about guns! It's time!"
The internet is such a profoundly dumb place most of the time.
Sorry you don’t understand the hypocrisy with Hollywood. It’s not a very difficult concept to understand.
You think the problem is I don't understand the nuance of your point? hahahahahahahahaha ok, buttercup.
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In comment 15424555 Heisenberg said:
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In comment 15424549 KDavies said:
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never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
LOL even this is political apparently.
Why are these comments even necessary? Why does everything have to resort to these type of snarky comments? Someone just died due to a horrible accident? We can’t even mourn the loss of life anymore without people interjecting shitty comments? That’s what the anonymity of the internet affords people I guess
Why are you easily offended? Sorry to hurt your delicate sensibilities, buttercup. I hardly think it’s controversial to point out that guns shouldn’t be used as toys or props, and especially by an industry where a large number of them think they can lecture everyone else. I completely agree it is a tragic loss of life and should have never happened. But, again that’s why firearms should be taken a little more seriously and not used by clowns to make a buck
It's a movie set. What, you think guns shouldn't be allowed in movies? Your OP was sanctimonious bullshit drivel, with the sole purpose of getting in a dig at "Hollywood".
Your follow-up with "offended" and "buttercup" just drives it home.
Btw, hope I'm not coming off as a "snowflake" by telling you how mind numbingly stupid your initial comment was.
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In comment 15424562 Ned In Atlanta said:
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In comment 15424555 Heisenberg said:
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In comment 15424549 KDavies said:
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never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
LOL even this is political apparently.
Why are these comments even necessary? Why does everything have to resort to these type of snarky comments? Someone just died due to a horrible accident? We can’t even mourn the loss of life anymore without people interjecting shitty comments? That’s what the anonymity of the internet affords people I guess
Why are you easily offended? Sorry to hurt your delicate sensibilities, buttercup. I hardly think it’s controversial to point out that guns shouldn’t be used as toys or props, and especially by an industry where a large number of them think they can lecture everyone else. I completely agree it is a tragic loss of life and should have never happened. But, again that’s why firearms should be taken a little more seriously and not used by clowns to make a buck
Your comment was dumb as fuck.
It's a movie set. What, you think guns shouldn't be allowed in movies? Your OP was sanctimonious bullshit drivel, with the sole purpose of getting in a dig at "Hollywood".
Your follow-up with "offended" and "buttercup" just drives it home.
Btw, hope I'm not coming off as a "snowflake" by telling you how mind numbingly stupid your initial comment was.
No, Hollywood should not be using deadly weapons that they obviously don’t know how to use properly
I could just as soon kill you with a #2 Pencil.
This is true, very good advice, but in this case, maybe they were filming, and the script called for Baldwin to point the gun towards the camera?
Producer is right, this is 100% on the props crew for not properly disengaging the weapon. What a horrible tragedy. I'm really surprised they even use real guns. With all of the money tied up in making a major studio film, why not have a gun that cannot take real ammo?
No, Hollywood should not be using deadly weapons that they obviously don’t know how to use properly
Yeah! And they should stop using real cars and trucks, too.
I completely agree. The fact that a studio that spends millions making, and insuring, a major production, and they can't commission a gun manufacturer to produce a gun that only uses blanks? Poundwise and penny foolish.
Blanks are used, not because it is cheaper, but because it looks better, more realistic.
The DP and director were likely hit during filming, or rehearsal, in a scene where the gun was pointed in the direction of the camera. There is no chance that Baldwin, the actor, did anything illegal or irresponsible with a prop gun on set, no matter what you think of him politically.
He is also a producer on the film, so if the film cur any corners on gun safety, intentional or unintentional, Baldwin the producer could be on the hook for that, more likely civil exposure than criminal.
The recoil from the first shot should have been a warning
The recoil from the first shot should have been a warning
We'll find out after the investigation but it could be that a live round was in the gun, without his knowledge, and passed through the DP then hit the director. Or if it was a blank with debris in the chamber, there is less recoil. Or it could be that whatever was fired hit the camera or some other equipment and sent debris flying.
Link - ( New Window )
The recoil from the first shot should have been a warning
you still get a recoil with a blank - it has a charge (though not to the point of live ammo - depending on the firearm), just no projectile.
either there was live ammo or another projectile in the chamber.
but I'd definitely investigate this, seems like basic safety protocol 101.
which is why you need to rule out intent or even negligence. someone died I wouldn't simply accept, oh well it was an accident.
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How could Baldwin discharge twice ?
The recoil from the first shot should have been a warning
you still get a recoil with a blank - it has a charge (though not to the point of live ammo - depending on the firearm), just no projectile.
either there was live ammo or another projectile in the chamber.
but I'd definitely investigate this, seems like basic safety protocol 101.
which is why you need to rule out intent or even negligence. someone died I wouldn't simply accept, oh well it was an accident.
There is significantly less recoil when firing a blank than a live round. But anyway it is immaterial. Someone not familiar with firearms might not know the difference and might expect a blank to fire with recoil.
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How could Baldwin discharge twice ?
The recoil from the first shot should have been a warning
you still get a recoil with a blank - it has a charge (though not to the point of live ammo - depending on the firearm), just no projectile.
either there was live ammo or another projectile in the chamber.
but I'd definitely investigate this, seems like basic safety protocol 101.
which is why you need to rule out intent or even negligence. someone died I wouldn't simply accept, oh well it was an accident.
Of course there should be an investigation but do you really think Alec Baldwin intended to murder someone on set?
I could just as soon kill you with a #2 Pencil.
Difference is, if you point a #2 pencil at someone, there’s a 0% chance it’s going to go off and kill someone.
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With everything you can do with film today, how is there not a safer alternative. That's crazy.
Agreed 100%
Except then we’d get people complaining about ‘Hollywood’s pussification of ‘Merica’ because they don’t even use prop guns anymore.
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In comment 15424648 Archer said:
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How could Baldwin discharge twice ?
The recoil from the first shot should have been a warning
you still get a recoil with a blank - it has a charge (though not to the point of live ammo - depending on the firearm), just no projectile.
either there was live ammo or another projectile in the chamber.
but I'd definitely investigate this, seems like basic safety protocol 101.
which is why you need to rule out intent or even negligence. someone died I wouldn't simply accept, oh well it was an accident.
Of course there should be an investigation but do you really think Alec Baldwin intended to murder someone on set?
no, I don't think that, but my thoughts shouldn't be the determining factor. It wouldn't be the first time an accident was actually murder or more to the point I brought up - negligence which may not be murder but it could be negligent homicide or manslaughter - if it is worthy of any of those charges. Or maybe it was an innocent accident.
that's why you investigate.
Funny that you start your post with a lecture about the proper use of firearms.
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never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
Funny that you start your post with a lecture about the proper use of firearms.
I actually know how to properly use firearms. It is a universal axiom of firearms that you don't point them at anyone you don't intend to kill. It really is not that hard to comprehend.
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In comment 15424549 KDavies said:
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never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
Funny that you start your post with a lecture about the proper use of firearms.
I actually know how to properly use firearms. It is a universal axiom of firearms that you don't point them at anyone you don't intend to kill. It really is not that hard to comprehend.
Honestly, you sound like a fool. Weapons on set are supposed to be modified so that they are virtually non-lethal and can be fired around people, under supervision, safely. They're not just taking a weapon out of your locker and firing it. You may know a lot about firearms, but you know absolutely nothing about firearm props on movie sets. Your comments are ignorant.
@MailOnline
· 1m
Prop masters union claims Alec Baldwin fired a LIVE round at cinematographer on set https://trib.al/OfbGDxo
@MailOnline
· 1m
Prop masters union claims Alec Baldwin fired a LIVE round at cinematographer on set https://trib.al/OfbGDxo
I'm positive they don't know what happened. This is like a school shooting and people report multiple shooters when there is only one.
There should never be live rounds on a movie set. Never.
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In comment 15424711 sb from NYT Forum said:
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In comment 15424549 KDavies said:
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never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
Funny that you start your post with a lecture about the proper use of firearms.
I actually know how to properly use firearms. It is a universal axiom of firearms that you don't point them at anyone you don't intend to kill. It really is not that hard to comprehend.
Honestly, you sound like a fool. Weapons on set are supposed to be modified so that they are virtually non-lethal and can be fired around people, under supervision, safely. They're not just taking a weapon out of your locker and firing it. You may know a lot about firearms, but you know absolutely nothing about firearm props on movie sets. Your comments are ignorant.
My comments are not remotely out of ignorance. I am military trained, seven years in, and a combat veteran. Again, any weapon (whether blank, live, etc.) should be treated as if it could kill. You do not point any weapon at another human being unless you intend to kill them. You may allege my advice is foolish, but if my advice was followed, there would not have been a death here.
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In comment 15424720 KDavies said:
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In comment 15424711 sb from NYT Forum said:
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In comment 15424549 KDavies said:
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never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
Funny that you start your post with a lecture about the proper use of firearms.
I actually know how to properly use firearms. It is a universal axiom of firearms that you don't point them at anyone you don't intend to kill. It really is not that hard to comprehend.
Honestly, you sound like a fool. Weapons on set are supposed to be modified so that they are virtually non-lethal and can be fired around people, under supervision, safely. They're not just taking a weapon out of your locker and firing it. You may know a lot about firearms, but you know absolutely nothing about firearm props on movie sets. Your comments are ignorant.
My comments are not remotely out of ignorance. I am military trained, seven years in, and a combat veteran. Again, any weapon (whether blank, live, etc.) should be treated as if it could kill. You do not point any weapon at another human being unless you intend to kill them. You may allege my advice is foolish, but if my advice was followed, there would not have been a death here.
This is stupid. For a century of moviemaking, actors have pointed guns at each other. There has been, what? 3 incidents?
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In comment 15424720 KDavies said:
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In comment 15424711 sb from NYT Forum said:
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In comment 15424549 KDavies said:
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never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
Funny that you start your post with a lecture about the proper use of firearms.
I actually know how to properly use firearms. It is a universal axiom of firearms that you don't point them at anyone you don't intend to kill. It really is not that hard to comprehend.
Honestly, you sound like a fool. Weapons on set are supposed to be modified so that they are virtually non-lethal and can be fired around people, under supervision, safely. They're not just taking a weapon out of your locker and firing it. You may know a lot about firearms, but you know absolutely nothing about firearm props on movie sets. Your comments are ignorant.
My comments are not remotely out of ignorance. I am military trained, seven years in, and a combat veteran. Again, any weapon (whether blank, live, etc.) should be treated as if it could kill. You do not point any weapon at another human being unless you intend to kill them. You may allege my advice is foolish, but if my advice was followed, there would not have been a death here.
Ok. I certainly respect your service and firearms expertise, but movie making is not combat. Movies hire firearms experts to neutralize the killing potential of guns. When done properly a blank can be fired safely on set.
So, in those seven years, you never once participated in a training excerise firing blanks with an adapter on the muzzle?
Easy. Let's wait for the facts. A projectile likely was fired. Unlikely it was a live round.
present!
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.
Easy. Let's wait for the facts. A projectile likely was fired. Unlikely it was a live round.
The union e-mail stated it was a live round. How? don't ask me lol
Bizarre. Still not clear what is meant by "a live single round was accidentally fired." That reads as a negligent discharge, but it could be poorly written and could mean that he accidentally shot a live round, rather than a blank.
Where the tip of a dummy bullet got lodged in the barrel from a previous usage and then blanks were loaded.
A blank + dummy bullet = real bullet.
Where the tip of a dummy bullet got lodged in the barrel from a previous usage and then blanks were loaded.
A blank + dummy bullet = real bullet.
If that was the situation, it should not have been written as "an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired." Because that reads like a negligent discharge, in which Baldwin could face criminal repercussions.
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situation.
Where the tip of a dummy bullet got lodged in the barrel from a previous usage and then blanks were loaded.
A blank + dummy bullet = real bullet.
If that was the situation, it should not have been written as "an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired." Because that reads like a negligent discharge, in which Baldwin could face criminal repercussions.
I'm guessing they have no actual information. They just know a prop gun was fired and somebody was shot.
Look 99% this was an accident and the gun was handed to Baldwin with the thinking it was just a blank. There is no chance Baldwin was handling the gun knowing it had a lethal round in it whether it was a live round or dummy+blank. Baldwin won't face any criminal consequences for firing the gun. But he is a producer. Maybe consequences if there was pressure or negligence by the production.
I’ve had some experience both using and working with prop guns on movie sets. I haven’t seen any that are capable of firing real ammo, unless they might have used real guns with blanks which is quite dangerous as they still shoot out particles that can do serious damage. Typically, pRop guns are essentially cap guns that are made to look like a real gun, and even operate the same. But the prop gun ammo is totally different and the prop guns aren’t built to fire real ammo from my experience. This is an odd report and story.
Indeed. He killed someone by accident. I am certain it's a hard thing to live with.
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In comment 15424818 Producer said:
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situation.
Where the tip of a dummy bullet got lodged in the barrel from a previous usage and then blanks were loaded.
A blank + dummy bullet = real bullet.
If that was the situation, it should not have been written as "an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired." Because that reads like a negligent discharge, in which Baldwin could face criminal repercussions.
I'm guessing they have no actual information. They just know a prop gun was fired and somebody was shot.
Look 99% this was an accident and the gun was handed to Baldwin with the thinking it was just a blank. There is no chance Baldwin was handling the gun knowing it had a lethal round in it whether it was a live round or dummy+blank. Baldwin won't face any criminal consequences for firing the gun. But he is a producer. Maybe consequences if there was pressure or negligence by the production.
I agree that it is doubtful it is a situation that Baldwin is facing criminal consquences. Though he is notoriously a hothead with a violent temper, I sincerely doubt he intended any harm, and he was reportedly extremely and understandably distraught.
My point was that I find that statement strange in its wording, as the wording makes is appear as if was a negligent discharge of a known live weapon by Baldwin. Which, depending on the circumstances, there could be criminal liability. Regardless of intent, one can still be charged criminally for negligently discharging a firearm.
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In the email that IATSE Local 44 sent to its membership, Secretary-Treasurer Anthony Pawluc described the event as an “an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halnya Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza … Local 44 has confirmed that the Props, Set Decoration, Special Effects and Construction Departments were staffed by New Mexico crew members. There were no Local 44 members on the call sheet.”
I’ve had some experience both using and working with prop guns on movie sets. I haven’t seen any that are capable of firing real ammo, unless they might have used real guns with blanks which is quite dangerous as they still shoot out particles that can do serious damage. Typically, pRop guns are essentially cap guns that are made to look like a real gun, and even operate the same. But the prop gun ammo is totally different and the prop guns aren’t built to fire real ammo from my experience. This is an odd report and story.
Guns that fire blanks are generally real guns, not cap guns. There are a variety of other prop guns but make no mistake this was probably a real gun as was the gun in the Brandan Lee incident.
If an individual negligently discharges a firearm and kills somebody, they can be charged criminally depending on the circumstances and laws of the locality. It will be much lesser charges than if they intended to kill, of course.
If it was a BL situation (live round dislodged while shooting blanks), then obviously no criminal liability (except perhaps on the part of the expert in charge of the weapon)
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In the email that IATSE Local 44 sent to its membership, Secretary-Treasurer Anthony Pawluc described the event as an “an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halnya Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza … Local 44 has confirmed that the Props, Set Decoration, Special Effects and Construction Departments were staffed by New Mexico crew members. There were no Local 44 members on the call sheet.”
Bizarre. Still not clear what is meant by "a live single round was accidentally fired." That reads as a negligent discharge, but it could be poorly written and could mean that he accidentally shot a live round, rather than a blank.
It sounds to me like the union is blaming the set for having non-union staff handling the firearms.
Did Alec Baldwin bang your girlfriend or something? We've got one person dead, one injured, and another (Baldwin) whose life is forever damaged - sounds like plenty of suffering already.
Sounds like you take great pleasure in pointing out some "do as we say, not as we do" hypocrisy of those Hollywood elitists, as if this wouldn't have happened if they merely followed the advice they dispense.
But that likely doesn't fit here given that this seemed to have happened during filming a scene. Maybe it was one of those scenes where a character fired his gun away from his victim as a warning.
He continues, "I am in touch with with her husband, offering my support to him and his family. My heart is broken for her husband, their son, and all who knew and loved Halyna."
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If it was a BL situation (live round dislodged while shooting blanks), then obviously no criminal liability (except perhaps on the part of the expert in charge of the weapon)
Did Alec Baldwin bang your girlfriend or something? We've got one person dead, one injured, and another (Baldwin) whose life is forever damaged - sounds like plenty of suffering already.
That's a pretty grotesque question. Though many of these Hollywood types do rape and sexually assault women, no, Alec Baldwin did not rape my girlfriend, as I don't have one. I am married, and no, Alec Baldwin did not rape my wife. Thanks for asking this ridiculous question which has nothing to do with anything.
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In comment 15424801 DanMetroMan said:
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In the email that IATSE Local 44 sent to its membership, Secretary-Treasurer Anthony Pawluc described the event as an “an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halnya Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza … Local 44 has confirmed that the Props, Set Decoration, Special Effects and Construction Departments were staffed by New Mexico crew members. There were no Local 44 members on the call sheet.”
I’ve had some experience both using and working with prop guns on movie sets. I haven’t seen any that are capable of firing real ammo, unless they might have used real guns with blanks which is quite dangerous as they still shoot out particles that can do serious damage. Typically, pRop guns are essentially cap guns that are made to look like a real gun, and even operate the same. But the prop gun ammo is totally different and the prop guns aren’t built to fire real ammo from my experience. This is an odd report and story.
Guns that fire blanks are generally real guns, not cap guns. There are a variety of other prop guns but make no mistake this was probably a real gun as was the gun in the Brandan Lee incident.
Precisely the point I was making about why they are dangerous to use on set. You have a gun that has a working chamber, and may have been used for shooting live rounds. If they aren’t properly cleaned and maintained on set and being used at other actors, cameramen that is negligence on the producers.
My father and brother used to do civil war reenacting, and at events would often demonstrate to people how dangerous firing an unloaded weapon at “x” range is. They would put up a whole raw roaster chicken at 8-10 yards or so away and the thing would blow apart to pieces from particles and matter in the barrel. Sounds like to me the producers on this set didn’t follow standard safety guidelines, it’s truly a sad story as this could have been so easily avoided.
He continues, "I am in touch with with her husband, offering my support to him and his family. My heart is broken for her husband, their son, and all who knew and loved Halyna."
thanks for posting.
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I hardly think it’s controversial to point out that guns shouldn’t be used as toys or props, and especially by an industry where a large number of them think they can lecture everyone else.
Sounds like you take great pleasure in pointing out some "do as we say, not as we do" hypocrisy of those Hollywood elitists, as if this wouldn't have happened if they merely followed the advice they dispense.
But that likely doesn't fit here given that this seemed to have happened during filming a scene. Maybe it was one of those scenes where a character fired his gun away from his victim as a warning.
You think that is proper with live rounds?
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In comment 15424833 beatrixkiddo said:
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In comment 15424801 DanMetroMan said:
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In the email that IATSE Local 44 sent to its membership, Secretary-Treasurer Anthony Pawluc described the event as an “an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halnya Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza … Local 44 has confirmed that the Props, Set Decoration, Special Effects and Construction Departments were staffed by New Mexico crew members. There were no Local 44 members on the call sheet.”
I’ve had some experience both using and working with prop guns on movie sets. I haven’t seen any that are capable of firing real ammo, unless they might have used real guns with blanks which is quite dangerous as they still shoot out particles that can do serious damage. Typically, pRop guns are essentially cap guns that are made to look like a real gun, and even operate the same. But the prop gun ammo is totally different and the prop guns aren’t built to fire real ammo from my experience. This is an odd report and story.
Guns that fire blanks are generally real guns, not cap guns. There are a variety of other prop guns but make no mistake this was probably a real gun as was the gun in the Brandan Lee incident.
Precisely the point I was making about why they are dangerous to use on set. You have a gun that has a working chamber, and may have been used for shooting live rounds. If they aren’t properly cleaned and maintained on set and being used at other actors, cameramen that is negligence on the producers.
My father and brother used to do civil war reenacting, and at events would often demonstrate to people how dangerous firing an unloaded weapon at “x” range is. They would put up a whole raw roaster chicken at 8-10 yards or so away and the thing would blow apart to pieces from particles and matter in the barrel. Sounds like to me the producers on this set didn’t follow standard safety guidelines, it’s truly a sad story as this could have been so easily avoided.
generally what you say here is true, except producers aren't usually gun experts and they have a position on films for handling firearms - armorer.
Where the tip of a dummy bullet got lodged in the barrel from a previous usage and then blanks were loaded.
A blank + dummy bullet = real bullet.
Actually this would have never happened if they had used dummys. On the Crow set they didn’t have dummys for whatever reason. Instead, a prop guy took real ammunition and removed the powder to make homemade dummys. Problem was, they still had primers. At some point someone pulled the trigger on a homemade dummy. The small explosive force was enough to dislodge the bullet from the cartridge, which got stuck in the barrel. No one noticed when the rounds were removed and replaced with blanks.
Where the tip of a dummy bullet got lodged in the barrel from a previous usage and then blanks were loaded.
A blank + dummy bullet = real bullet.
It just seems unfathomable to me that the barrel of a gun isn't always carefully inspected prior to being accessible on a movie set...
...but then I remember how careless people are, and I feel like we're just lucky that catastrophic disasters don't happen daily due to silly human error.
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situation.
Where the tip of a dummy bullet got lodged in the barrel from a previous usage and then blanks were loaded.
A blank + dummy bullet = real bullet.
It just seems unfathomable to me that the barrel of a gun isn't always carefully inspected prior to being accessible on a movie set...
...but then I remember how careless people are, and I feel like we're just lucky that catastrophic disasters don't happen daily due to silly human error.
There are good safety protocols, in general, which is why an accident of this nature hasn't happened in 30 years. In the Brandan Lee case the firearms expert left the set and the prop assistant did not know the procedure. But usually the firearms expert disassembles the firearm on set and checks it and shows it to the crew/cast and at least one other member of the crew, usually the AD, inspects the weapon.
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situation.
Where the tip of a dummy bullet got lodged in the barrel from a previous usage and then blanks were loaded.
A blank + dummy bullet = real bullet.
It just seems unfathomable to me that the barrel of a gun isn't always carefully inspected prior to being accessible on a movie set...
...but then I remember how careless people are, and I feel like we're just lucky that catastrophic disasters don't happen daily due to silly human error.
I recommend the book COMMAND AND CONTROL. About America's near misses with nuclear weapons disasters on our home soil. Very, very well written and an incredible story. One of the best books I ever read.
Amazon link - ( New Window )
Ya gotta wonder, why would movies even have guns that are loaded with anything? like why would they even have blanks in there? just have a normal gun with NOTHING inside it and figure out the special effects or the sound or whatever you need to do. Jeez. Brutal.
Don't point a gun at anyone you don't intend on killing? So, we should no longer make films involving guns/violence in a country where there are 20,000 gun homicides annually in the US? In an art medium that reflects life?
Perhaps we should replace all firearms in films with #2 pencils, so that gun enthusiasts can utilize a tool with applications other than killing/maiming.
It's the same people ruining all of these threads.
Ya gotta wonder, why would movies even have guns that are loaded with anything? like why would they even have blanks in there? just have a normal gun with NOTHING inside it and figure out the special effects or the sound or whatever you need to do. Jeez. Brutal.
They increasingly do use digital effects to simulate gunfire. But it’s not as realistic for some scenes. You can’t digitally replicate recoil for example.
Don't point a gun at anyone you don't intend on killing? So, we should no longer make films involving guns/violence in a country where there are 20,000 gun homicides annually in the US? In an art medium that reflects life?
Perhaps we should replace all firearms in films with #2 pencils, so that gun enthusiasts can utilize a tool with applications other than killing/maiming.
It's the same people ruining all of these threads.
its because of the one pandemic that has plagued this world before Covid. Its called lack of common sense.
As producer, he may well be sued as a result, but he isn't going to face any criminal charges.
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In comment 15424847 KDavies said:
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If it was a BL situation (live round dislodged while shooting blanks), then obviously no criminal liability (except perhaps on the part of the expert in charge of the weapon)
Did Alec Baldwin bang your girlfriend or something? We've got one person dead, one injured, and another (Baldwin) whose life is forever damaged - sounds like plenty of suffering already.
That's a pretty grotesque question. Though many of these Hollywood types do rape and sexually assault women, no, Alec Baldwin did not rape my girlfriend, as I don't have one. I am married, and no, Alec Baldwin did not rape my wife. Thanks for asking this ridiculous question which has nothing to do with anything.
Man alive, you may want to step away from the keyboard and take a breath…
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In comment 15424726 Producer said:
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In comment 15424720 KDavies said:
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In comment 15424711 sb from NYT Forum said:
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In comment 15424549 KDavies said:
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never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
Funny that you start your post with a lecture about the proper use of firearms.
I actually know how to properly use firearms. It is a universal axiom of firearms that you don't point them at anyone you don't intend to kill. It really is not that hard to comprehend.
Honestly, you sound like a fool. Weapons on set are supposed to be modified so that they are virtually non-lethal and can be fired around people, under supervision, safely. They're not just taking a weapon out of your locker and firing it. You may know a lot about firearms, but you know absolutely nothing about firearm props on movie sets. Your comments are ignorant.
My comments are not remotely out of ignorance. I am military trained, seven years in, and a combat veteran. Again, any weapon (whether blank, live, etc.) should be treated as if it could kill. You do not point any weapon at another human being unless you intend to kill them. You may allege my advice is foolish, but if my advice was followed, there would not have been a death here.
This is stupid. For a century of moviemaking, actors have pointed guns at each other. There has been, what? 3 incidents?
I don't know how many incidents but I guess you can comfort the husband and children with this who have lost a wife and mother.
Clearly protocols were not followed. There should only be one standard. Zero tolerance. This is not a mistake. It is simply gross negligence.
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In comment 15424749 KDavies said:
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In comment 15424726 Producer said:
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In comment 15424720 KDavies said:
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In comment 15424711 sb from NYT Forum said:
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In comment 15424549 KDavies said:
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never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
Funny that you start your post with a lecture about the proper use of firearms.
I actually know how to properly use firearms. It is a universal axiom of firearms that you don't point them at anyone you don't intend to kill. It really is not that hard to comprehend.
Honestly, you sound like a fool. Weapons on set are supposed to be modified so that they are virtually non-lethal and can be fired around people, under supervision, safely. They're not just taking a weapon out of your locker and firing it. You may know a lot about firearms, but you know absolutely nothing about firearm props on movie sets. Your comments are ignorant.
My comments are not remotely out of ignorance. I am military trained, seven years in, and a combat veteran. Again, any weapon (whether blank, live, etc.) should be treated as if it could kill. You do not point any weapon at another human being unless you intend to kill them. You may allege my advice is foolish, but if my advice was followed, there would not have been a death here.
This is stupid. For a century of moviemaking, actors have pointed guns at each other. There has been, what? 3 incidents?
I don't know how many incidents but I guess you can comfort the husband and children with this who have lost a wife and mother.
Clearly protocols were not followed. There should only be one standard. Zero tolerance. This is not a mistake. It is simply gross negligence.
My point apparently flew over your head and is bouncing around in the right field corner.
My point apparently flew over your head and is bouncing around in the right field corner.
CiP is rounding third...
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My point apparently flew over your head and is bouncing around in the right field corner.
CiP is rounding third...
I think he ran into the wall a few too many times.
As producer, he may well be sued as a result, but he isn't going to face any criminal charges.
Yes, but it should be noted there were good safety protocols at the time of The Crow as well but due to a confluence of careless mistakes that tragedy happened.
That would be like prosecuting the driver of a car that had faulty brakes from the production line.
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My point apparently flew over your head and is bouncing around in the right field corner.
CiP is rounding third...
Safe at home?
In the fatal scene, which called for the revolver to be actually fired at Lee from a distance of 12–15 feet, the dummy cartridges were exchanged for blank rounds, which feature a live powder charge and primer, but no bullet, thus allowing the gun to be fired without the risk of an actual projectile. As the production company had sent the firearms specialist home early, responsibility for the guns was given to a prop assistant who was not aware of the rule for checking all firearms before and after any handling. Therefore, the barrel was not checked for obstructions when it came time to load it with the blank rounds.[6][7] Since the bullet from the dummy round was already trapped in the barrel, this caused the .44 Magnum bullet to be fired out of the barrel with virtually the same force as if the gun had been loaded with a live round, and it struck Lee in the abdomen, mortally wounding him.[8][9] He was rushed to the New Hanover Regional Medical Center in Wilmington, where he underwent six hours of surgery. However, attempts to save him were unsuccessful, and Lee was pronounced dead at 1:03 pm EST on March 31, 1993, at the age of 28. The shooting was ruled an accident.
That would be like prosecuting the driver of a car that had faulty brakes from the production line.
Even if someone preparing the gun made a mistake, Baldwin should have never aimed the gun at anyone.
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Do you want to prosecute Alec Baldwin for firing a gun he assumed was safely prepped by the prop master or armorer?
That would be like prosecuting the driver of a car that had faulty brakes from the production line.
Even if someone preparing the gun made a mistake, Baldwin should have never aimed the gun at anyone.
It is his job to point the deactivated gun and shoot where he is told. it is an incredibly obtuse position to lay blame on an actor for firing a prop gun on a movie set.
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Do you want to prosecute Alec Baldwin for firing a gun he assumed was safely prepped by the prop master or armorer?
That would be like prosecuting the driver of a car that had faulty brakes from the production line.
Even if someone preparing the gun made a mistake, Baldwin should have never aimed the gun at anyone.
That would be like prosecuting the driver of a car that had faulty brakes from the production line.
I did not say anything in regards to Baldwin. Simply said when you are dealing with any type of weapon whether you have live or blank rounds involved there should be no expectation that a "accident can happen". You should have a series of protocols and safety briefs in place. Now you have to investigate and hold accountable whoever is responsible for that. It is pretty simple.
In your example with brakes, I surely would hope that you have several checkpoints to follow to ensure safety after coming off a production line.
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Do you want to prosecute Alec Baldwin for firing a gun he assumed was safely prepped by the prop master or armorer?
That would be like prosecuting the driver of a car that had faulty brakes from the production line.
I did not say anything in regards to Baldwin. Simply said when you are dealing with any type of weapon whether you have live or blank rounds involved there should be no expectation that a "accident can happen". You should have a series of protocols and safety briefs in place. Now you have to investigate and hold accountable whoever is responsible for that. It is pretty simple.
In your example with brakes, I surely would hope that you have several checkpoints to follow to ensure safety after coming off a production line.
for sure there are safety protocols. But tragedies happen in spite of protocols. Look at the Brandan Lee example I posted above.
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Do you want to prosecute Alec Baldwin for firing a gun he assumed was safely prepped by the prop master or armorer?
That would be like prosecuting the driver of a car that had faulty brakes from the production line.
I did not say anything in regards to Baldwin. Simply said when you are dealing with any type of weapon whether you have live or blank rounds involved there should be no expectation that a "accident can happen". You should have a series of protocols and safety briefs in place. Now you have to investigate and hold accountable whoever is responsible for that. It is pretty simple.
In your example with brakes, I surely would hope that you have several checkpoints to follow to ensure safety after coming off a production line.
There already IS a series of protocols in place as outlined by the link Greg posted. Someone fucked up.
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Do you want to prosecute Alec Baldwin for firing a gun he assumed was safely prepped by the prop master or armorer?
That would be like prosecuting the driver of a car that had faulty brakes from the production line.
Even if someone preparing the gun made a mistake, Baldwin should have never aimed the gun at anyone.
Stick to your morals then and never, ever watch a movie or television show with a gun pointed at someone.
So incredibly fucking stupid, lol.
You want to throw everybody who makes a mistake that costs a life in jail? Aren't our jails already full enough? Making a mistake that results in a death isn't necessarily manslaughter. You need some legal predicate.
Any film folks want to chime in?
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that are not followed that results in a life lost that is not a accident. It is gross negligence. I guess some think it is okay to tell those kids who just lost a mother it was a accident.
You want to throw everybody who makes a mistake that costs a life in jail? Aren't our jails already full enough? Making a mistake that results in a death isn't necessarily manslaughter. You need some legal predicate.
I never said anything about jail for Baldwin or anyone else. I do not like calling something a "accident" if protocols that were in place that were not followed. If that is a accident to you so be it.
But no matter which scenario it is, there is no chance Baldwin is carrying a prop gun that he thinks has live ammo. Period. The mistake(s) is made somewhere before the gun hits his hand. And I have been on a variety of different sets across 30+ years.
Any film folks want to chime in?
Sure.
1) Don’t trust what you read on Twitter
2) Don’t trust people named “boompolesandbarbells”
3) No one has said that live ammunition was involved
There are many variables on how this tragedy could have happened. Pointing fingers before we know any details at all is pointless and reckless.
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In comment 15425093 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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that are not followed that results in a life lost that is not a accident. It is gross negligence. I guess some think it is okay to tell those kids who just lost a mother it was a accident.
You want to throw everybody who makes a mistake that costs a life in jail? Aren't our jails already full enough? Making a mistake that results in a death isn't necessarily manslaughter. You need some legal predicate.
I never said anything about jail for Baldwin or anyone else. I do not like calling something a "accident" if protocols that were in place that were not followed. If that is a accident to you so be it.
People make mistakes. We're human. Sometimes mistakes cost lives. It's tragic. There will be consequences. Who wants to hire the firearms prop guy who got somebody killed? Who wants to live with the guilt of failing to prep a gun properly that killed another person? There will be consequences.
Sure.
1) Don’t trust what you read on Twitter
2) Don’t trust people named “boompolesandbarbells”
3) No one has said that live ammunition was involved
There are many variables on how this tragedy could have happened. Pointing fingers before we know any details at all is pointless and reckless.
Dude, I led off with the fact that it's speculation. I know where its coming from. Everything on this thread is speculation until the facts come out. I was referencing the bit about the position of the director and the cinematographer in relation to where Alec would have been pointing this gun under normal circumstance. As someone who has never been on a set, I think that's a potentially interesting detail.
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In comment 15424502 thrunthrublue said:
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Director of photography……also shot the director!
#TimesUp
Making a joke/making it political less than 24 hours after someone loses their life. Stay classy, Adam
My bad. It wasn't meant to be political. But it is a bad joke. I tend to use humor when I hear horrible stories to cope. I'll edit that better on here in the future.
Dude, I led off with the fact that it's speculation. I know where its coming from. Everything on this thread is speculation until the facts come out. I was referencing the bit about the position of the director and the cinematographer in relation to where Alec would have been pointing this gun under normal circumstance. As someone who has never been on a set, I think that's a potentially interesting detail.
Point is we don’t have any details. A lot of things could have happened. There are numerous ways people out of the line of fire could have been hit. Some kind of shrapnel could have inadvertently gotten into the muzzle. It would have flow off in unpredictable directions when a blank was discharged. Or maybe the gun had a barrel lining that broke apart and sent shrapnel flying. Or a piece of equipment was hit and broke apart sending shrapnel flying. Who knows? Too many variables and no info yet.
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Dude, I led off with the fact that it's speculation. I know where its coming from. Everything on this thread is speculation until the facts come out. I was referencing the bit about the position of the director and the cinematographer in relation to where Alec would have been pointing this gun under normal circumstance. As someone who has never been on a set, I think that's a potentially interesting detail.
Point is we don’t have any details. A lot of things could have happened. There are numerous ways people out of the line of fire could have been hit. Some kind of shrapnel could have inadvertently gotten into the muzzle. It would have flow off in unpredictable directions when a blank was discharged. Or maybe the gun had a barrel lining that broke apart and sent shrapnel flying. Or a piece of equipment was hit and broke apart sending shrapnel flying. Who knows? Too many variables and no info yet.
yes probably. The most likely scenario is a variation of the Brandan Lee episode which I quoted some detail above. Something in the barrel and failure to inspect properly. But it could be something else for sure.
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In comment 15424991 Chris in Philly said:
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My point apparently flew over your head and is bouncing around in the right field corner.
CiP is rounding third...
Safe at home?
I was hoping you barreled into home like Charlie Hustle. Just nuke home plate, please?
https://twitter.com/refocusedmedia/status/1451610081339056130/photo/1
https://twitter.com/ae_marciano/status/1451591528875315202
https://twitter.com/venice4change/status/1451472741664649217
Is this possible? That the gun could contain a live round and it was not inspected beforehand?
Link - ( New Window )
Is this possible? That the gun could contain a live round and it was not inspected beforehand? Link - ( New Window )
Subject line should have said "The gun contained a live round"
Sorry.
Is this possible? That the gun could contain a live round and it was not inspected beforehand? Link - ( New Window )
If the gun did contain a live round (or something that could serve as a projectile when fired), then it's a virtual certainty that it wasn't inspected beforehand.
Is this possible? That the gun could contain a live round and it was not inspected beforehand? Link - ( New Window )
On a movie set blanks are referred to as “live” rounds. That may be what he’s referring to. He wasn’t there so I don’t think he’s relaying info specific to this event.
"The Case of the Shooting Star"
"The Case of the Shooting Star"
John, that's what this horror reminds me of, an outrageous and improbable tv script that I would ridicule. It's just hard for me to believe this (I'm not suggesting I doubt the truth of it). It just seems like one more crazy case of life imitating art.
Yikes???
Link - ( New Window )
Link - ( New Window )
Instead, the B-camera operator was on a dolly with a monitor, checking out the potential shots. Hutchins was also looking at the monitor from over the operator’s shoulder, as was the movie’s director, Joel Souza, who was crouching just behind her.
Baldwin removed the gun from its holster once without incident, but the second time he repeated the action, ammunition flew toward the trio around the monitor. The projectile whizzed by the camera operator but penetrated Hutchins near her shoulder, then continued through to Souza. Hutchins immediately fell to the ground as crew members applied pressure to her wound in an attempt to stop the bleeding.
Gun That Killed DP ... ALLEGEDLY USED FOR OFF-SET TARGET PRACTICE - ( New Window )
What the... I mean, that just sounds like it shouldn't be possible on a number of levels.
And the AD pretty much didn't follow any of the protocols regarding the firearms.
It was a disaster in the making and unfortunately someone died as a result.
And the AD pretty much didn't follow any of the protocols regarding the firearms.
It was a disaster in the making and unfortunately someone died as a result.
Where are you seeing that about Baldwin? Stories I’ve read had quotes from crew saying he was very careful with weapons.
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multiple times.
And the AD pretty much didn't follow any of the protocols regarding the firearms.
It was a disaster in the making and unfortunately someone died as a result.
Where are you seeing that about Baldwin? Stories I’ve read had quotes from crew saying he was very careful with weapons.
Yea, I haven't heard anything like this, just the opposite in face. It doesn't even appear Baldwin pulled the trigger. This particular gun was misfiring all week.