How could Baldwin discharge twice ?
The recoil from the first shot should have been a warning
We'll find out after the investigation but it could be that a live round was in the gun, without his knowledge, and passed through the DP then hit the director. Or if it was a blank with debris in the chamber, there is less recoil. Or it could be that whatever was fired hit the camera or some other equipment and sent debris flying.
W. Earl Brown described how the process works on set
How could Baldwin discharge twice ?
The recoil from the first shot should have been a warning
you still get a recoil with a blank - it has a charge (though not to the point of live ammo - depending on the firearm), just no projectile.
either there was live ammo or another projectile in the chamber.
but I'd definitely investigate this, seems like basic safety protocol 101.
which is why you need to rule out intent or even negligence. someone died I wouldn't simply accept, oh well it was an accident.
There is significantly less recoil when firing a blank than a live round. But anyway it is immaterial. Someone not familiar with firearms might not know the difference and might expect a blank to fire with recoil.
How could Baldwin discharge twice ?
The recoil from the first shot should have been a warning
you still get a recoil with a blank - it has a charge (though not to the point of live ammo - depending on the firearm), just no projectile.
either there was live ammo or another projectile in the chamber.
but I'd definitely investigate this, seems like basic safety protocol 101.
which is why you need to rule out intent or even negligence. someone died I wouldn't simply accept, oh well it was an accident.
Of course there should be an investigation but do you really think Alec Baldwin intended to murder someone on set?
no, I don't think that, but my thoughts shouldn't be the determining factor. It wouldn't be the first time an accident was actually murder or more to the point I brought up - negligence which may not be murder but it could be negligent homicide or manslaughter - if it is worthy of any of those charges. Or maybe it was an innocent accident.
never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
Funny that you start your post with a lecture about the proper use of firearms.
I actually know how to properly use firearms. It is a universal axiom of firearms that you don't point them at anyone you don't intend to kill. It really is not that hard to comprehend.
never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
Funny that you start your post with a lecture about the proper use of firearms.
I actually know how to properly use firearms. It is a universal axiom of firearms that you don't point them at anyone you don't intend to kill. It really is not that hard to comprehend.
Honestly, you sound like a fool. Weapons on set are supposed to be modified so that they are virtually non-lethal and can be fired around people, under supervision, safely. They're not just taking a weapon out of your locker and firing it. You may know a lot about firearms, but you know absolutely nothing about firearm props on movie sets. Your comments are ignorant.
never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
Funny that you start your post with a lecture about the proper use of firearms.
I actually know how to properly use firearms. It is a universal axiom of firearms that you don't point them at anyone you don't intend to kill. It really is not that hard to comprehend.
Honestly, you sound like a fool. Weapons on set are supposed to be modified so that they are virtually non-lethal and can be fired around people, under supervision, safely. They're not just taking a weapon out of your locker and firing it. You may know a lot about firearms, but you know absolutely nothing about firearm props on movie sets. Your comments are ignorant.
My comments are not remotely out of ignorance. I am military trained, seven years in, and a combat veteran. Again, any weapon (whether blank, live, etc.) should be treated as if it could kill. You do not point any weapon at another human being unless you intend to kill them. You may allege my advice is foolish, but if my advice was followed, there would not have been a death here.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: First rule of having a firearm
never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
Funny that you start your post with a lecture about the proper use of firearms.
I actually know how to properly use firearms. It is a universal axiom of firearms that you don't point them at anyone you don't intend to kill. It really is not that hard to comprehend.
Honestly, you sound like a fool. Weapons on set are supposed to be modified so that they are virtually non-lethal and can be fired around people, under supervision, safely. They're not just taking a weapon out of your locker and firing it. You may know a lot about firearms, but you know absolutely nothing about firearm props on movie sets. Your comments are ignorant.
My comments are not remotely out of ignorance. I am military trained, seven years in, and a combat veteran. Again, any weapon (whether blank, live, etc.) should be treated as if it could kill. You do not point any weapon at another human being unless you intend to kill them. You may allege my advice is foolish, but if my advice was followed, there would not have been a death here.
This is stupid. For a century of moviemaking, actors have pointed guns at each other. There has been, what? 3 incidents?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: First rule of having a firearm
never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
Funny that you start your post with a lecture about the proper use of firearms.
I actually know how to properly use firearms. It is a universal axiom of firearms that you don't point them at anyone you don't intend to kill. It really is not that hard to comprehend.
Honestly, you sound like a fool. Weapons on set are supposed to be modified so that they are virtually non-lethal and can be fired around people, under supervision, safely. They're not just taking a weapon out of your locker and firing it. You may know a lot about firearms, but you know absolutely nothing about firearm props on movie sets. Your comments are ignorant.
My comments are not remotely out of ignorance. I am military trained, seven years in, and a combat veteran. Again, any weapon (whether blank, live, etc.) should be treated as if it could kill. You do not point any weapon at another human being unless you intend to kill them. You may allege my advice is foolish, but if my advice was followed, there would not have been a death here.
Ok. I certainly respect your service and firearms expertise, but movie making is not combat. Movies hire firearms experts to neutralize the killing potential of guns. When done properly a blank can be fired safely on set.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: First rule of having a firearm
My comments are not remotely out of ignorance. I am military trained, seven years in, and a combat veteran. Again, any weapon (whether blank, live, etc.) should be treated as if it could kill. You do not point any weapon at another human being unless you intend to kill them. You may allege my advice is foolish, but if my advice was followed, there would not have been a death here.
So, in those seven years, you never once participated in a training excerise firing blanks with an adapter on the muzzle?
In the email that IATSE Local 44 sent to its membership, Secretary-Treasurer Anthony Pawluc described the event as an “an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halnya Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza … Local 44 has confirmed that the Props, Set Decoration, Special Effects and Construction Departments were staffed by New Mexico crew members. There were no Local 44 members on the call sheet.”
In the email that IATSE Local 44 sent to its membership, Secretary-Treasurer Anthony Pawluc described the event as an “an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halnya Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza … Local 44 has confirmed that the Props, Set Decoration, Special Effects and Construction Departments were staffed by New Mexico crew members. There were no Local 44 members on the call sheet.”
Bizarre. Still not clear what is meant by "a live single round was accidentally fired." That reads as a negligent discharge, but it could be poorly written and could mean that he accidentally shot a live round, rather than a blank.
Or it could be exactly what happened in the Brandan Lee
Where the tip of a dummy bullet got lodged in the barrel from a previous usage and then blanks were loaded.
A blank + dummy bullet = real bullet.
If that was the situation, it should not have been written as "an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired." Because that reads like a negligent discharge, in which Baldwin could face criminal repercussions.
RE: RE: Or it could be exactly what happened in the Brandan Lee
Where the tip of a dummy bullet got lodged in the barrel from a previous usage and then blanks were loaded.
A blank + dummy bullet = real bullet.
If that was the situation, it should not have been written as "an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired." Because that reads like a negligent discharge, in which Baldwin could face criminal repercussions.
I'm guessing they have no actual information. They just know a prop gun was fired and somebody was shot.
Look 99% this was an accident and the gun was handed to Baldwin with the thinking it was just a blank. There is no chance Baldwin was handling the gun knowing it had a lethal round in it whether it was a live round or dummy+blank. Baldwin won't face any criminal consequences for firing the gun. But he is a producer. Maybe consequences if there was pressure or negligence by the production.
think it's safe to assume this was a bad accident. Civil suits might be coming but unless Alec Baldwin asked for a live bullet and knowingly shot someone I don't see how he's going to get in "trouble". Very sad either way. There are pictures of him distraught and crying while on the phone, I can't imagine how I would feel had that been me.
In the email that IATSE Local 44 sent to its membership, Secretary-Treasurer Anthony Pawluc described the event as an “an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halnya Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza … Local 44 has confirmed that the Props, Set Decoration, Special Effects and Construction Departments were staffed by New Mexico crew members. There were no Local 44 members on the call sheet.”
I’ve had some experience both using and working with prop guns on movie sets. I haven’t seen any that are capable of firing real ammo, unless they might have used real guns with blanks which is quite dangerous as they still shoot out particles that can do serious damage. Typically, pRop guns are essentially cap guns that are made to look like a real gun, and even operate the same. But the prop gun ammo is totally different and the prop guns aren’t built to fire real ammo from my experience. This is an odd report and story.
think it's safe to assume this was a bad accident. Civil suits might be coming but unless Alec Baldwin asked for a live bullet and knowingly shot someone I don't see how he's going to get in "trouble". Very sad either way. There are pictures of him distraught and crying while on the phone, I can't imagine how I would feel had that been me.
Indeed. He killed someone by accident. I am certain it's a hard thing to live with.
RE: RE: RE: Or it could be exactly what happened in the Brandan Lee
Where the tip of a dummy bullet got lodged in the barrel from a previous usage and then blanks were loaded.
A blank + dummy bullet = real bullet.
If that was the situation, it should not have been written as "an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired." Because that reads like a negligent discharge, in which Baldwin could face criminal repercussions.
I'm guessing they have no actual information. They just know a prop gun was fired and somebody was shot.
Look 99% this was an accident and the gun was handed to Baldwin with the thinking it was just a blank. There is no chance Baldwin was handling the gun knowing it had a lethal round in it whether it was a live round or dummy+blank. Baldwin won't face any criminal consequences for firing the gun. But he is a producer. Maybe consequences if there was pressure or negligence by the production.
I agree that it is doubtful it is a situation that Baldwin is facing criminal consquences. Though he is notoriously a hothead with a violent temper, I sincerely doubt he intended any harm, and he was reportedly extremely and understandably distraught.
My point was that I find that statement strange in its wording, as the wording makes is appear as if was a negligent discharge of a known live weapon by Baldwin. Which, depending on the circumstances, there could be criminal liability. Regardless of intent, one can still be charged criminally for negligently discharging a firearm.
In the email that IATSE Local 44 sent to its membership, Secretary-Treasurer Anthony Pawluc described the event as an “an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halnya Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza … Local 44 has confirmed that the Props, Set Decoration, Special Effects and Construction Departments were staffed by New Mexico crew members. There were no Local 44 members on the call sheet.”
I’ve had some experience both using and working with prop guns on movie sets. I haven’t seen any that are capable of firing real ammo, unless they might have used real guns with blanks which is quite dangerous as they still shoot out particles that can do serious damage. Typically, pRop guns are essentially cap guns that are made to look like a real gun, and even operate the same. But the prop gun ammo is totally different and the prop guns aren’t built to fire real ammo from my experience. This is an odd report and story.
Guns that fire blanks are generally real guns, not cap guns. There are a variety of other prop guns but make no mistake this was probably a real gun as was the gun in the Brandan Lee incident.
think it's safe to assume this was a bad accident. Civil suits might be coming but unless Alec Baldwin asked for a live bullet and knowingly shot someone I don't see how he's going to get in "trouble". Very sad either way. There are pictures of him distraught and crying while on the phone, I can't imagine how I would feel had that been me.
If an individual negligently discharges a firearm and kills somebody, they can be charged criminally depending on the circumstances and laws of the locality. It will be much lesser charges than if they intended to kill, of course.
are first, did Baldwin know there was a live round. And if he did know it was live rounds, what were the circumstances of the discharge.
If it was a BL situation (live round dislodged while shooting blanks), then obviously no criminal liability (except perhaps on the part of the expert in charge of the weapon)
In the email that IATSE Local 44 sent to its membership, Secretary-Treasurer Anthony Pawluc described the event as an “an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halnya Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza … Local 44 has confirmed that the Props, Set Decoration, Special Effects and Construction Departments were staffed by New Mexico crew members. There were no Local 44 members on the call sheet.”
Bizarre. Still not clear what is meant by "a live single round was accidentally fired." That reads as a negligent discharge, but it could be poorly written and could mean that he accidentally shot a live round, rather than a blank.
It sounds to me like the union is blaming the set for having non-union staff handling the firearms.
If it was a BL situation (live round dislodged while shooting blanks), then obviously no criminal liability (except perhaps on the part of the expert in charge of the weapon)
Did Alec Baldwin bang your girlfriend or something? We've got one person dead, one injured, and another (Baldwin) whose life is forever damaged - sounds like plenty of suffering already.
I hardly think it’s controversial to point out that guns shouldn’t be used as toys or props, and especially by an industry where a large number of them think they can lecture everyone else.
Sounds like you take great pleasure in pointing out some "do as we say, not as we do" hypocrisy of those Hollywood elitists, as if this wouldn't have happened if they merely followed the advice they dispense.
But that likely doesn't fit here given that this seemed to have happened during filming a scene. Maybe it was one of those scenes where a character fired his gun away from his victim as a warning.
8:44 AM PT -- 10/21 -- Alec Baldwin is speaking for the first time since the tragic accident, saying, "There are no words to convey my shock and sadness regarding the tragic accident that took the life of Halyna Hutchins, a wife, mother and deeply admired colleague of ours. I'm fully cooperating with the police investigation to address how this tragedy occurred."
He continues, "I am in touch with with her husband, offering my support to him and his family. My heart is broken for her husband, their son, and all who knew and loved Halyna."
If it was a BL situation (live round dislodged while shooting blanks), then obviously no criminal liability (except perhaps on the part of the expert in charge of the weapon)
Did Alec Baldwin bang your girlfriend or something? We've got one person dead, one injured, and another (Baldwin) whose life is forever damaged - sounds like plenty of suffering already.
That's a pretty grotesque question. Though many of these Hollywood types do rape and sexually assault women, no, Alec Baldwin did not rape my girlfriend, as I don't have one. I am married, and no, Alec Baldwin did not rape my wife. Thanks for asking this ridiculous question which has nothing to do with anything.
In the email that IATSE Local 44 sent to its membership, Secretary-Treasurer Anthony Pawluc described the event as an “an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halnya Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza … Local 44 has confirmed that the Props, Set Decoration, Special Effects and Construction Departments were staffed by New Mexico crew members. There were no Local 44 members on the call sheet.”
I’ve had some experience both using and working with prop guns on movie sets. I haven’t seen any that are capable of firing real ammo, unless they might have used real guns with blanks which is quite dangerous as they still shoot out particles that can do serious damage. Typically, pRop guns are essentially cap guns that are made to look like a real gun, and even operate the same. But the prop gun ammo is totally different and the prop guns aren’t built to fire real ammo from my experience. This is an odd report and story.
Guns that fire blanks are generally real guns, not cap guns. There are a variety of other prop guns but make no mistake this was probably a real gun as was the gun in the Brandan Lee incident.
Precisely the point I was making about why they are dangerous to use on set. You have a gun that has a working chamber, and may have been used for shooting live rounds. If they aren’t properly cleaned and maintained on set and being used at other actors, cameramen that is negligence on the producers.
My father and brother used to do civil war reenacting, and at events would often demonstrate to people how dangerous firing an unloaded weapon at “x” range is. They would put up a whole raw roaster chicken at 8-10 yards or so away and the thing would blow apart to pieces from particles and matter in the barrel. Sounds like to me the producers on this set didn’t follow standard safety guidelines, it’s truly a sad story as this could have been so easily avoided.
8:44 AM PT -- 10/21 -- Alec Baldwin is speaking for the first time since the tragic accident, saying, "There are no words to convey my shock and sadness regarding the tragic accident that took the life of Halyna Hutchins, a wife, mother and deeply admired colleague of ours. I'm fully cooperating with the police investigation to address how this tragedy occurred."
He continues, "I am in touch with with her husband, offering my support to him and his family. My heart is broken for her husband, their son, and all who knew and loved Halyna."
thanks for posting.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: First rule of having a firearm
I hardly think it’s controversial to point out that guns shouldn’t be used as toys or props, and especially by an industry where a large number of them think they can lecture everyone else.
Sounds like you take great pleasure in pointing out some "do as we say, not as we do" hypocrisy of those Hollywood elitists, as if this wouldn't have happened if they merely followed the advice they dispense.
But that likely doesn't fit here given that this seemed to have happened during filming a scene. Maybe it was one of those scenes where a character fired his gun away from his victim as a warning.
In the email that IATSE Local 44 sent to its membership, Secretary-Treasurer Anthony Pawluc described the event as an “an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halnya Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza … Local 44 has confirmed that the Props, Set Decoration, Special Effects and Construction Departments were staffed by New Mexico crew members. There were no Local 44 members on the call sheet.”
I’ve had some experience both using and working with prop guns on movie sets. I haven’t seen any that are capable of firing real ammo, unless they might have used real guns with blanks which is quite dangerous as they still shoot out particles that can do serious damage. Typically, pRop guns are essentially cap guns that are made to look like a real gun, and even operate the same. But the prop gun ammo is totally different and the prop guns aren’t built to fire real ammo from my experience. This is an odd report and story.
Guns that fire blanks are generally real guns, not cap guns. There are a variety of other prop guns but make no mistake this was probably a real gun as was the gun in the Brandan Lee incident.
Precisely the point I was making about why they are dangerous to use on set. You have a gun that has a working chamber, and may have been used for shooting live rounds. If they aren’t properly cleaned and maintained on set and being used at other actors, cameramen that is negligence on the producers.
My father and brother used to do civil war reenacting, and at events would often demonstrate to people how dangerous firing an unloaded weapon at “x” range is. They would put up a whole raw roaster chicken at 8-10 yards or so away and the thing would blow apart to pieces from particles and matter in the barrel. Sounds like to me the producers on this set didn’t follow standard safety guidelines, it’s truly a sad story as this could have been so easily avoided.
generally what you say here is true, except producers aren't usually gun experts and they have a position on films for handling firearms - armorer.
RE: Or it could be exactly what happened in the Brandan Lee
Where the tip of a dummy bullet got lodged in the barrel from a previous usage and then blanks were loaded.
A blank + dummy bullet = real bullet.
Actually this would have never happened if they had used dummys. On the Crow set they didn’t have dummys for whatever reason. Instead, a prop guy took real ammunition and removed the powder to make homemade dummys. Problem was, they still had primers. At some point someone pulled the trigger on a homemade dummy. The small explosive force was enough to dislodge the bullet from the cartridge, which got stuck in the barrel. No one noticed when the rounds were removed and replaced with blanks.
RE: Or it could be exactly what happened in the Brandan Lee
Where the tip of a dummy bullet got lodged in the barrel from a previous usage and then blanks were loaded.
A blank + dummy bullet = real bullet.
It just seems unfathomable to me that the barrel of a gun isn't always carefully inspected prior to being accessible on a movie set...
...but then I remember how careless people are, and I feel like we're just lucky that catastrophic disasters don't happen daily due to silly human error.
The recoil from the first shot should have been a warning
The recoil from the first shot should have been a warning
We'll find out after the investigation but it could be that a live round was in the gun, without his knowledge, and passed through the DP then hit the director. Or if it was a blank with debris in the chamber, there is less recoil. Or it could be that whatever was fired hit the camera or some other equipment and sent debris flying.
Link - ( New Window )
The recoil from the first shot should have been a warning
you still get a recoil with a blank - it has a charge (though not to the point of live ammo - depending on the firearm), just no projectile.
either there was live ammo or another projectile in the chamber.
but I'd definitely investigate this, seems like basic safety protocol 101.
which is why you need to rule out intent or even negligence. someone died I wouldn't simply accept, oh well it was an accident.
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How could Baldwin discharge twice ?
The recoil from the first shot should have been a warning
you still get a recoil with a blank - it has a charge (though not to the point of live ammo - depending on the firearm), just no projectile.
either there was live ammo or another projectile in the chamber.
but I'd definitely investigate this, seems like basic safety protocol 101.
which is why you need to rule out intent or even negligence. someone died I wouldn't simply accept, oh well it was an accident.
There is significantly less recoil when firing a blank than a live round. But anyway it is immaterial. Someone not familiar with firearms might not know the difference and might expect a blank to fire with recoil.
Quote:
How could Baldwin discharge twice ?
The recoil from the first shot should have been a warning
you still get a recoil with a blank - it has a charge (though not to the point of live ammo - depending on the firearm), just no projectile.
either there was live ammo or another projectile in the chamber.
but I'd definitely investigate this, seems like basic safety protocol 101.
which is why you need to rule out intent or even negligence. someone died I wouldn't simply accept, oh well it was an accident.
Of course there should be an investigation but do you really think Alec Baldwin intended to murder someone on set?
I could just as soon kill you with a #2 Pencil.
Difference is, if you point a #2 pencil at someone, there’s a 0% chance it’s going to go off and kill someone.
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With everything you can do with film today, how is there not a safer alternative. That's crazy.
Agreed 100%
Except then we’d get people complaining about ‘Hollywood’s pussification of ‘Merica’ because they don’t even use prop guns anymore.
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In comment 15424648 Archer said:
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How could Baldwin discharge twice ?
The recoil from the first shot should have been a warning
you still get a recoil with a blank - it has a charge (though not to the point of live ammo - depending on the firearm), just no projectile.
either there was live ammo or another projectile in the chamber.
but I'd definitely investigate this, seems like basic safety protocol 101.
which is why you need to rule out intent or even negligence. someone died I wouldn't simply accept, oh well it was an accident.
Of course there should be an investigation but do you really think Alec Baldwin intended to murder someone on set?
no, I don't think that, but my thoughts shouldn't be the determining factor. It wouldn't be the first time an accident was actually murder or more to the point I brought up - negligence which may not be murder but it could be negligent homicide or manslaughter - if it is worthy of any of those charges. Or maybe it was an innocent accident.
that's why you investigate.
Funny that you start your post with a lecture about the proper use of firearms.
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never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
Funny that you start your post with a lecture about the proper use of firearms.
I actually know how to properly use firearms. It is a universal axiom of firearms that you don't point them at anyone you don't intend to kill. It really is not that hard to comprehend.
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In comment 15424549 KDavies said:
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never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
Funny that you start your post with a lecture about the proper use of firearms.
I actually know how to properly use firearms. It is a universal axiom of firearms that you don't point them at anyone you don't intend to kill. It really is not that hard to comprehend.
Honestly, you sound like a fool. Weapons on set are supposed to be modified so that they are virtually non-lethal and can be fired around people, under supervision, safely. They're not just taking a weapon out of your locker and firing it. You may know a lot about firearms, but you know absolutely nothing about firearm props on movie sets. Your comments are ignorant.
@MailOnline
· 1m
Prop masters union claims Alec Baldwin fired a LIVE round at cinematographer on set https://trib.al/OfbGDxo
@MailOnline
· 1m
Prop masters union claims Alec Baldwin fired a LIVE round at cinematographer on set https://trib.al/OfbGDxo
I'm positive they don't know what happened. This is like a school shooting and people report multiple shooters when there is only one.
There should never be live rounds on a movie set. Never.
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In comment 15424711 sb from NYT Forum said:
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In comment 15424549 KDavies said:
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never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
Funny that you start your post with a lecture about the proper use of firearms.
I actually know how to properly use firearms. It is a universal axiom of firearms that you don't point them at anyone you don't intend to kill. It really is not that hard to comprehend.
Honestly, you sound like a fool. Weapons on set are supposed to be modified so that they are virtually non-lethal and can be fired around people, under supervision, safely. They're not just taking a weapon out of your locker and firing it. You may know a lot about firearms, but you know absolutely nothing about firearm props on movie sets. Your comments are ignorant.
My comments are not remotely out of ignorance. I am military trained, seven years in, and a combat veteran. Again, any weapon (whether blank, live, etc.) should be treated as if it could kill. You do not point any weapon at another human being unless you intend to kill them. You may allege my advice is foolish, but if my advice was followed, there would not have been a death here.
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In comment 15424720 KDavies said:
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In comment 15424711 sb from NYT Forum said:
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In comment 15424549 KDavies said:
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never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
Funny that you start your post with a lecture about the proper use of firearms.
I actually know how to properly use firearms. It is a universal axiom of firearms that you don't point them at anyone you don't intend to kill. It really is not that hard to comprehend.
Honestly, you sound like a fool. Weapons on set are supposed to be modified so that they are virtually non-lethal and can be fired around people, under supervision, safely. They're not just taking a weapon out of your locker and firing it. You may know a lot about firearms, but you know absolutely nothing about firearm props on movie sets. Your comments are ignorant.
My comments are not remotely out of ignorance. I am military trained, seven years in, and a combat veteran. Again, any weapon (whether blank, live, etc.) should be treated as if it could kill. You do not point any weapon at another human being unless you intend to kill them. You may allege my advice is foolish, but if my advice was followed, there would not have been a death here.
This is stupid. For a century of moviemaking, actors have pointed guns at each other. There has been, what? 3 incidents?
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In comment 15424720 KDavies said:
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In comment 15424711 sb from NYT Forum said:
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In comment 15424549 KDavies said:
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never point a gun at someone you don’t intend to kill. But please Hollywood. Continue to lecture the rest of us about the proper use of firearms.
Funny that you start your post with a lecture about the proper use of firearms.
I actually know how to properly use firearms. It is a universal axiom of firearms that you don't point them at anyone you don't intend to kill. It really is not that hard to comprehend.
Honestly, you sound like a fool. Weapons on set are supposed to be modified so that they are virtually non-lethal and can be fired around people, under supervision, safely. They're not just taking a weapon out of your locker and firing it. You may know a lot about firearms, but you know absolutely nothing about firearm props on movie sets. Your comments are ignorant.
My comments are not remotely out of ignorance. I am military trained, seven years in, and a combat veteran. Again, any weapon (whether blank, live, etc.) should be treated as if it could kill. You do not point any weapon at another human being unless you intend to kill them. You may allege my advice is foolish, but if my advice was followed, there would not have been a death here.
Ok. I certainly respect your service and firearms expertise, but movie making is not combat. Movies hire firearms experts to neutralize the killing potential of guns. When done properly a blank can be fired safely on set.
So, in those seven years, you never once participated in a training excerise firing blanks with an adapter on the muzzle?
Easy. Let's wait for the facts. A projectile likely was fired. Unlikely it was a live round.
present!
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Easy. Let's wait for the facts. A projectile likely was fired. Unlikely it was a live round.
The union e-mail stated it was a live round. How? don't ask me lol
Bizarre. Still not clear what is meant by "a live single round was accidentally fired." That reads as a negligent discharge, but it could be poorly written and could mean that he accidentally shot a live round, rather than a blank.
Where the tip of a dummy bullet got lodged in the barrel from a previous usage and then blanks were loaded.
A blank + dummy bullet = real bullet.
Where the tip of a dummy bullet got lodged in the barrel from a previous usage and then blanks were loaded.
A blank + dummy bullet = real bullet.
If that was the situation, it should not have been written as "an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired." Because that reads like a negligent discharge, in which Baldwin could face criminal repercussions.
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situation.
Where the tip of a dummy bullet got lodged in the barrel from a previous usage and then blanks were loaded.
A blank + dummy bullet = real bullet.
If that was the situation, it should not have been written as "an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired." Because that reads like a negligent discharge, in which Baldwin could face criminal repercussions.
I'm guessing they have no actual information. They just know a prop gun was fired and somebody was shot.
Look 99% this was an accident and the gun was handed to Baldwin with the thinking it was just a blank. There is no chance Baldwin was handling the gun knowing it had a lethal round in it whether it was a live round or dummy+blank. Baldwin won't face any criminal consequences for firing the gun. But he is a producer. Maybe consequences if there was pressure or negligence by the production.
I’ve had some experience both using and working with prop guns on movie sets. I haven’t seen any that are capable of firing real ammo, unless they might have used real guns with blanks which is quite dangerous as they still shoot out particles that can do serious damage. Typically, pRop guns are essentially cap guns that are made to look like a real gun, and even operate the same. But the prop gun ammo is totally different and the prop guns aren’t built to fire real ammo from my experience. This is an odd report and story.
Indeed. He killed someone by accident. I am certain it's a hard thing to live with.
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In comment 15424818 Producer said:
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situation.
Where the tip of a dummy bullet got lodged in the barrel from a previous usage and then blanks were loaded.
A blank + dummy bullet = real bullet.
If that was the situation, it should not have been written as "an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired." Because that reads like a negligent discharge, in which Baldwin could face criminal repercussions.
I'm guessing they have no actual information. They just know a prop gun was fired and somebody was shot.
Look 99% this was an accident and the gun was handed to Baldwin with the thinking it was just a blank. There is no chance Baldwin was handling the gun knowing it had a lethal round in it whether it was a live round or dummy+blank. Baldwin won't face any criminal consequences for firing the gun. But he is a producer. Maybe consequences if there was pressure or negligence by the production.
I agree that it is doubtful it is a situation that Baldwin is facing criminal consquences. Though he is notoriously a hothead with a violent temper, I sincerely doubt he intended any harm, and he was reportedly extremely and understandably distraught.
My point was that I find that statement strange in its wording, as the wording makes is appear as if was a negligent discharge of a known live weapon by Baldwin. Which, depending on the circumstances, there could be criminal liability. Regardless of intent, one can still be charged criminally for negligently discharging a firearm.
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In the email that IATSE Local 44 sent to its membership, Secretary-Treasurer Anthony Pawluc described the event as an “an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halnya Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza … Local 44 has confirmed that the Props, Set Decoration, Special Effects and Construction Departments were staffed by New Mexico crew members. There were no Local 44 members on the call sheet.”
I’ve had some experience both using and working with prop guns on movie sets. I haven’t seen any that are capable of firing real ammo, unless they might have used real guns with blanks which is quite dangerous as they still shoot out particles that can do serious damage. Typically, pRop guns are essentially cap guns that are made to look like a real gun, and even operate the same. But the prop gun ammo is totally different and the prop guns aren’t built to fire real ammo from my experience. This is an odd report and story.
Guns that fire blanks are generally real guns, not cap guns. There are a variety of other prop guns but make no mistake this was probably a real gun as was the gun in the Brandan Lee incident.
If an individual negligently discharges a firearm and kills somebody, they can be charged criminally depending on the circumstances and laws of the locality. It will be much lesser charges than if they intended to kill, of course.
If it was a BL situation (live round dislodged while shooting blanks), then obviously no criminal liability (except perhaps on the part of the expert in charge of the weapon)
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In the email that IATSE Local 44 sent to its membership, Secretary-Treasurer Anthony Pawluc described the event as an “an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halnya Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza … Local 44 has confirmed that the Props, Set Decoration, Special Effects and Construction Departments were staffed by New Mexico crew members. There were no Local 44 members on the call sheet.”
Bizarre. Still not clear what is meant by "a live single round was accidentally fired." That reads as a negligent discharge, but it could be poorly written and could mean that he accidentally shot a live round, rather than a blank.
It sounds to me like the union is blaming the set for having non-union staff handling the firearms.
Did Alec Baldwin bang your girlfriend or something? We've got one person dead, one injured, and another (Baldwin) whose life is forever damaged - sounds like plenty of suffering already.
Sounds like you take great pleasure in pointing out some "do as we say, not as we do" hypocrisy of those Hollywood elitists, as if this wouldn't have happened if they merely followed the advice they dispense.
But that likely doesn't fit here given that this seemed to have happened during filming a scene. Maybe it was one of those scenes where a character fired his gun away from his victim as a warning.
He continues, "I am in touch with with her husband, offering my support to him and his family. My heart is broken for her husband, their son, and all who knew and loved Halyna."
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If it was a BL situation (live round dislodged while shooting blanks), then obviously no criminal liability (except perhaps on the part of the expert in charge of the weapon)
Did Alec Baldwin bang your girlfriend or something? We've got one person dead, one injured, and another (Baldwin) whose life is forever damaged - sounds like plenty of suffering already.
That's a pretty grotesque question. Though many of these Hollywood types do rape and sexually assault women, no, Alec Baldwin did not rape my girlfriend, as I don't have one. I am married, and no, Alec Baldwin did not rape my wife. Thanks for asking this ridiculous question which has nothing to do with anything.
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In comment 15424801 DanMetroMan said:
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In the email that IATSE Local 44 sent to its membership, Secretary-Treasurer Anthony Pawluc described the event as an “an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halnya Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza … Local 44 has confirmed that the Props, Set Decoration, Special Effects and Construction Departments were staffed by New Mexico crew members. There were no Local 44 members on the call sheet.”
I’ve had some experience both using and working with prop guns on movie sets. I haven’t seen any that are capable of firing real ammo, unless they might have used real guns with blanks which is quite dangerous as they still shoot out particles that can do serious damage. Typically, pRop guns are essentially cap guns that are made to look like a real gun, and even operate the same. But the prop gun ammo is totally different and the prop guns aren’t built to fire real ammo from my experience. This is an odd report and story.
Guns that fire blanks are generally real guns, not cap guns. There are a variety of other prop guns but make no mistake this was probably a real gun as was the gun in the Brandan Lee incident.
Precisely the point I was making about why they are dangerous to use on set. You have a gun that has a working chamber, and may have been used for shooting live rounds. If they aren’t properly cleaned and maintained on set and being used at other actors, cameramen that is negligence on the producers.
My father and brother used to do civil war reenacting, and at events would often demonstrate to people how dangerous firing an unloaded weapon at “x” range is. They would put up a whole raw roaster chicken at 8-10 yards or so away and the thing would blow apart to pieces from particles and matter in the barrel. Sounds like to me the producers on this set didn’t follow standard safety guidelines, it’s truly a sad story as this could have been so easily avoided.
He continues, "I am in touch with with her husband, offering my support to him and his family. My heart is broken for her husband, their son, and all who knew and loved Halyna."
thanks for posting.
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I hardly think it’s controversial to point out that guns shouldn’t be used as toys or props, and especially by an industry where a large number of them think they can lecture everyone else.
Sounds like you take great pleasure in pointing out some "do as we say, not as we do" hypocrisy of those Hollywood elitists, as if this wouldn't have happened if they merely followed the advice they dispense.
But that likely doesn't fit here given that this seemed to have happened during filming a scene. Maybe it was one of those scenes where a character fired his gun away from his victim as a warning.
You think that is proper with live rounds?
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In comment 15424833 beatrixkiddo said:
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In comment 15424801 DanMetroMan said:
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In the email that IATSE Local 44 sent to its membership, Secretary-Treasurer Anthony Pawluc described the event as an “an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halnya Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza … Local 44 has confirmed that the Props, Set Decoration, Special Effects and Construction Departments were staffed by New Mexico crew members. There were no Local 44 members on the call sheet.”
I’ve had some experience both using and working with prop guns on movie sets. I haven’t seen any that are capable of firing real ammo, unless they might have used real guns with blanks which is quite dangerous as they still shoot out particles that can do serious damage. Typically, pRop guns are essentially cap guns that are made to look like a real gun, and even operate the same. But the prop gun ammo is totally different and the prop guns aren’t built to fire real ammo from my experience. This is an odd report and story.
Guns that fire blanks are generally real guns, not cap guns. There are a variety of other prop guns but make no mistake this was probably a real gun as was the gun in the Brandan Lee incident.
Precisely the point I was making about why they are dangerous to use on set. You have a gun that has a working chamber, and may have been used for shooting live rounds. If they aren’t properly cleaned and maintained on set and being used at other actors, cameramen that is negligence on the producers.
My father and brother used to do civil war reenacting, and at events would often demonstrate to people how dangerous firing an unloaded weapon at “x” range is. They would put up a whole raw roaster chicken at 8-10 yards or so away and the thing would blow apart to pieces from particles and matter in the barrel. Sounds like to me the producers on this set didn’t follow standard safety guidelines, it’s truly a sad story as this could have been so easily avoided.
generally what you say here is true, except producers aren't usually gun experts and they have a position on films for handling firearms - armorer.
Where the tip of a dummy bullet got lodged in the barrel from a previous usage and then blanks were loaded.
A blank + dummy bullet = real bullet.
Actually this would have never happened if they had used dummys. On the Crow set they didn’t have dummys for whatever reason. Instead, a prop guy took real ammunition and removed the powder to make homemade dummys. Problem was, they still had primers. At some point someone pulled the trigger on a homemade dummy. The small explosive force was enough to dislodge the bullet from the cartridge, which got stuck in the barrel. No one noticed when the rounds were removed and replaced with blanks.
Where the tip of a dummy bullet got lodged in the barrel from a previous usage and then blanks were loaded.
A blank + dummy bullet = real bullet.
It just seems unfathomable to me that the barrel of a gun isn't always carefully inspected prior to being accessible on a movie set...
...but then I remember how careless people are, and I feel like we're just lucky that catastrophic disasters don't happen daily due to silly human error.