Article on why selecting RB's high in the draft is a mistake

A lot of people were saying it at the time, Nelson, Chubb or trade down was the right move then.

...to Gettleman to swap our #2 overall for their #4 overall.

JFC can you imagine? The Giants likely could have had Nelson, Braden Smith AND Nick Chubb.

(of course, Gettleman could have drafted Smith but took Hernandez... sm damn h.)

the Giants have done well without needing to draft 1st-round running backs. Jacobs was a 4th-rounder in '05, Bradshaw a 7th-rounder in '07.

And grabbing Nelson. But Gettleman talked himself out of it because he wanted a “Hall of Fame” player. Funny thing is Nelson is on the path to the Hall and Barkley will have to buy a ticket to get in.

In comment 15424902 sb from NYT Forum said:

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...to Gettleman to swap our #2 overall for their #4 overall. JFC can you imagine? The Giants likely could have had Nelson, Braden Smith AND Nick Chubb. (of course, Gettleman could have drafted Smith but took Hernandez... sm damn h.)

Could have taken Darius Leonard instead as well.

here at BBI.

There are two rules of thumb in today's NFL - (1) never a lottery pick on a RB and (2) never give a RB a huge second contract. Dolts like Gettleman should have had these on his screen saver when he was hired.

There are exceptions to #2. Like Derrick Henry. But more often than not, the odds overwhelmingly say find another, cheaper solution.

In comment 15424902 sb from NYT Forum said:

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...to Gettleman to swap our #2 overall for their #4 overall. JFC can you imagine? The Giants likely could have had Nelson, Braden Smith AND Nick Chubb. (of course, Gettleman could have drafted Smith but took Hernandez... sm damn h.)

Ugh, I hadn't heard that. I was in favor of trading down with the Jets, who we knew were enamored with Darnold. Indy really helped themselves with that trade, still getting the guy they wanted, plus 2 linchpins on defense.

All the proof you need to see that you don't use such a high pick on a RB was on display last night. 3rd string RB ran for 150 yards because he had one of the best OL's in front of him. DG knew this, or at least said he did, but went for the fancy car instead of fixing the plumbing.

say that Barkley was the pick that doomed DG's "rebuild" and not Jones. Barkley teased us with his rookie year but how many of those were just untouched big runs that as the Ol deteriorated they became less and less and then the injuries etc.

The lack of fixing the Ol doomed the run game and the passing game. It hastened Eli's downfall and ultimately killed Jones's progression.

A second contract...

that needed to go through a heavy restructuring in many areas of its roster.

If the front office couldn't find a QB worth taking in their assessment, they needed to shop that #2 pick and improve in several other areas. Plenty to choose from...

is the price tag of the #2 overall pick and the burden it puts on the salary cap to have a RB taking up such a big cap hit.


Taking an RB at #2 was a HUGE miss for DG, which is part of the reason it will cost him his job.

Cleveland allegedly offered this. Is there any articles at draft time where this supposed offer was out there. Let me guess when Jones was drafted we were offered someone’s next ten 1st round picks and DG turned them down.

Talk was on Darnold and lot of fans wanted Rosen.

Funny now, in hindsight, it's always ignored and to the stud OG.

Chubb is always hurt, too.

In comment 15424962 Giants73 said:

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Cleveland allegedly offered this. Is there any articles at draft time where this supposed offer was out there. Let me guess when Jones was drafted we were offered someone’s next ten 1st round picks and DG turned them down.

Yes there were. At the time. Gettleman himself admitted he got calls.

Common sense dictates that something similar was offered to the Giants prior. Additionally, a QB went right after the Giants pick with another 2 QBs going in the first half of that draft, indicating that there was both value and a market for that position. The Giants turned in their card as quickly as the NFL permitted, indicating that they did not fully explore a trade down. There have been reports of rumored interest from other organizations like the Broncos as well. The whole "we don't know if a fair trade was on the table argument" is just ridiculous. If you have a half a brain and aren't willfully ignoring that half, you can do the math on what options were available to the Giants that year and the extent to which they explored them.

I don't even think the argument of whether a RB is worth a top 5 pick is even much of an argument anymore. There's nothing really earth shattering there. The Barkley pick may have cemented that and it's commonly accepted at this point. The Giants were just late to this line of thinking just like they've been late on everything the last decade and will continue to be late unless there are wholesale changes to the people doing the thinking.

In comment 15424972 Toth029 said:

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Talk was on Darnold and lot of fans wanted Rosen. Funny now, in hindsight, it's always ignored and to the stud OG. Chubb is always hurt, too.

Thank goodness we're not the GM. I mean, we'd be in trouble...

Nah.

In comment 15424972 Toth029 said:

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Talk was on Darnold and lot of fans wanted Rosen. Funny now, in hindsight, it's always ignored and to the stud OG. Chubb is always hurt, too.

I think we have enough proof from the results on the field over the last 4 years to suggest they made plenty of poor decisions.

Do you really think fans require hindsight to take their shots?

In comment 15424973 jeff57 said:

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In comment 15424962 Giants73 said: Quote: Cleveland allegedly offered this. Is there any articles at draft time where this supposed offer was out there. Let me guess when Jones was drafted we were offered someone’s next ten 1st round picks and DG turned them down. Yes there were. At the time. Gettleman himself admitted he got calls.

getting calls and getting that offer is not the same thing. For all you know the calls were to move down to 10.

In comment 15424962 Giants73 said:

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Cleveland allegedly offered this. Is there any articles at draft time where this supposed offer was out there. Let me guess when Jones was drafted we were offered someone’s next ten 1st round picks and DG turned them down.

You don't need to pretend anything or look for any reports.. Jets gave away 3 2nd round picks for a draft pick that was worse than the one we had.. so even if we use that as the baseline.. we can see that we lost..

In comment 15424988 Giants73 said:

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In comment 15424973 jeff57 said: Quote: In comment 15424962 Giants73 said: Quote: Cleveland allegedly offered this. Is there any articles at draft time where this supposed offer was out there. Let me guess when Jones was drafted we were offered someone’s next ten 1st round picks and DG turned them down. Yes there were. At the time. Gettleman himself admitted he got calls. getting calls and getting that offer is not the same thing. For all you know the calls were to move down to 10.

Or it was possibly that offer...

In comment 15424979 AcesUp said:

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Common sense dictates that something similar was offered to the Giants prior. Additionally, a QB went right after the Giants pick with another 2 QBs going in the first half of that draft, indicating that there was both value and a market for that position. The Giants turned in their card as quickly as the NFL permitted, indicating that they did not fully explore a trade down. There have been reports of rumored interest from other organizations like the Broncos as well. The whole "we don't know if a fair trade was on the table argument" is just ridiculous. If you have a half a brain and aren't willfully ignoring that half, you can do the math on what options were available to the Giants that year and the extent to which they explored them. I don't even think the argument of whether a RB is worth a top 5 pick is even much of an argument anymore. There's nothing really earth shattering there. The Barkley pick may have cemented that and it's commonly accepted at this point. The Giants were just late to this line of thinking just like they've been late on everything the last decade and will continue to be late unless there are wholesale changes to the people doing the thinking.

Don't bother.. half the idiots here don't understand that we didn't wait an extra second to get an offer.. DG drafted Barkley as quick as humanly possible.. we have 10 extra min to draft the guy and in the meantime hear any offers..

Saying the team doesn't stink. But fans constantly, and I mean all the time, act like they know everything. I'm not arguing taking Barkley was the wrong pick, but all of a sudden it's Nelson or trade down. Like ignoring the fact guys like Rosen were completely awful, or how someone like Darnold flopped, and Chubb is as injured as Barkley.

The draft is a crapshoot and it's often dependent on how healthy the guy can stay, what scheme he's in, what supporting cast he has, etc. Unless he's just lazy, like Eli Apple and Ereck Flowers were.

In comment 15424998 Toth029 said:

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Saying the team doesn't stink. But fans constantly, and I mean all the time, act like they know everything. I'm not arguing taking Barkley was the wrong pick, but all of a sudden it's Nelson or trade down. Like ignoring the fact guys like Rosen were completely awful, or how someone like Darnold flopped, and Chubb is as injured as Barkley.

Chubb has missed 6 games in his career. Bakley has missed 18 in the same amount of time.

In comment 15424998 Toth029 said:

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Saying the team doesn't stink. But fans constantly, and I mean all the time, act like they know everything. I'm not arguing taking Barkley was the wrong pick, but all of a sudden it's Nelson or trade down. Like ignoring the fact guys like Rosen were completely awful, or how someone like Darnold flopped, and Chubb is as injured as Barkley. The draft is a crapshoot and it's often dependent on how healthy the guy can stay, what scheme he's in, what supporting cast he has, etc. Unless he's just lazy, like Eli Apple and Ereck Flowers were.

Grouping fans and their wishes together seems pretty lazy as well. I think many fans said trade down, and doing it to grabs some top O-linemen for a continually weak OL team doesn't seem like some crazy idea. Or a RB later in the draft. Does it?

And while fans/media may have wanted them to move on from Eli and go with Darnold, Rosen, that isn't what the Giants were ever going to do. You seem to also have left off a few other QBs in making your point that have done well.

In comment 15424998 Toth029 said:

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Saying the team doesn't stink. But fans constantly, and I mean all the time, act like they know everything. I'm not arguing taking Barkley was the wrong pick, but all of a sudden it's Nelson or trade down. Like ignoring the fact guys like Rosen were completely awful, or how someone like Darnold flopped, and Chubb is as injured as Barkley. The draft is a crapshoot and it's often dependent on how healthy the guy can stay, what scheme he's in, what supporting cast he has, etc. Unless he's just lazy, like Eli Apple and Ereck Flowers were.

The individual players I can understand but the process that was the problem.. Giants didn't even bother waiting to hear a trade scenario.. they knew they wanted a boom or bust RB.. who just don't relate to wins as much.. they didn't understand how the team was at the point and that it needed a rebuild.. Of the players you listed above the only team that is worse off is the one who traded up to get Darnold.. everyone else is better off..

The process should be to properly evaluate your team and make desicions based on that.. instead we figured an average but overpaid LT along with Jonathan Stewart, Boom or Bust RB and a reject OG from Jacksonville will make us a playoff team..

Now do you see the difference?

I remember an NFL draft podcast during the runup to the 2018 draft and beat reporters of the Colts and Broncos were openly mocking the Giants as they were set to draft a RB at #2.

In comment 15424972 Toth029 said:

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Talk was on Darnold and lot of fans wanted Rosen. Funny now, in hindsight, it's always ignored and to the stud OG. Chubb is always hurt, too.

I have never wavered on wanting Nelson! It was the right choice with how bad our Oline had been.

Remember how hot people were on Drew Lock. Both he and Haskins have stunk.

Chubb has only been healthy in 2 of his 4 seasons so far.

Think Bronco fans love that pick right now?

In comment 15425034 Toth029 said:

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Remember how hot people were on Drew Lock. Both he and Haskins have stunk.

Yeah, very good points. The Giants could have really wasted their time picking the wrong QB.

In comment 15425037 Toth029 said:

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Chubb has only been healthy in 2 of his 4 seasons so far. Think Bronco fans love that pick right now?

That's one more than Barkley.. but then again you are just talking about the players picked.. The entire process that the FO followed was wrong..

Are. When you add in their salaries and the fact that Saquon was the number two pick you have to wonder if anyone in this organization has any idea what they are doing. Every week I watch back ups from other teams look like Barry sanders compared to our backs

"Just draft a RB later!" and point to the few that turned into something as their "proof" it works. "Jacobs and Bradshaw!" they shout. These 2 Giants are exceptions.

Since 2007, the Giants have drafted:
-2009 Andre Brown (4th)
-2011 Da'Rel Scott (7th)
-2012 David Wilson (1st)
-2013 Michael Cox (7th)
-2014 Andre Williams (4th)
-2016 Paul Perkins (5th)
-2017 Wayne Gallman (4th)
-2018 Saquon Barkley (1st)

None of those drafted in the lower rounds were worth keeping. Aside from Wayne Gallman, none are on NFL rosters currently. And Gallman is such a solid RB that he got released by the 49ers after signing as a FA and is now 3rd string in Atlanta behind Mike Davis and a converted WR.

It's like ppl forgot how much guys like Andre Brown and Andre Williams sucked. So much so that we had to sign a guy like Rashad Jennings to play RB for us for several years.

In comment 15425046 RomanWH said:

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"Just draft a RB later!" and point to the few that turned into something as their "proof" it works. "Jacobs and Bradshaw!" they shout. These 2 Giants are exceptions. Since 2007, the Giants have drafted: -2009 Andre Brown (4th) -2011 Da'Rel Scott (7th) -2012 David Wilson (1st) -2013 Michael Cox (7th) -2014 Andre Williams (4th) -2016 Paul Perkins (5th) -2017 Wayne Gallman (4th) -2018 Saquon Barkley (1st) None of those drafted in the lower rounds were worth keeping. Aside from Wayne Gallman, none are on NFL rosters currently. And Gallman is such a solid RB that he got released by the 49ers after signing as a FA and is now 3rd string in Atlanta behind Mike Davis and a converted WR. It's like ppl forgot how much guys like Andre Brown and Andre Williams sucked. So much so that we had to sign a guy like Rashad Jennings to play RB for us for several years.

sorry you're tired. If you notice from your list, it wasn't worth it for the Giants to draft first round RBs either. So would you rather fail with a 4th round pick or a 1st round pick, since the organization seems unable to identify good RB talent regardless where they pick them.

In comment 15425046 RomanWH said:

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"Just draft a RB later!" and point to the few that turned into something as their "proof" it works. "Jacobs and Bradshaw!" they shout. These 2 Giants are exceptions. Since 2007, the Giants have drafted: -2009 Andre Brown (4th) -2011 Da'Rel Scott (7th) -2012 David Wilson (1st) -2013 Michael Cox (7th) -2014 Andre Williams (4th) -2016 Paul Perkins (5th) -2017 Wayne Gallman (4th) -2018 Saquon Barkley (1st) None of those drafted in the lower rounds were worth keeping. Aside from Wayne Gallman, none are on NFL rosters currently. And Gallman is such a solid RB that he got released by the 49ers after signing as a FA and is now 3rd string in Atlanta behind Mike Davis and a converted WR. It's like ppl forgot how much guys like Andre Brown and Andre Williams sucked. So much so that we had to sign a guy like Rashad Jennings to play RB for us for several years.

maybe look around the league and see how other (smarter) teams have operated? Just a thought.

In comment 15425046 RomanWH said:

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"Just draft a RB later!" and point to the few that turned into something as their "proof" it works. "Jacobs and Bradshaw!" they shout. These 2 Giants are exceptions. Since 2007, the Giants have drafted: -2009 Andre Brown (4th) -2011 Da'Rel Scott (7th) -2012 David Wilson (1st) -2013 Michael Cox (7th) -2014 Andre Williams (4th) -2016 Paul Perkins (5th) -2017 Wayne Gallman (4th) -2018 Saquon Barkley (1st) None of those drafted in the lower rounds were worth keeping. Aside from Wayne Gallman, none are on NFL rosters currently. And Gallman is such a solid RB that he got released by the 49ers after signing as a FA and is now 3rd string in Atlanta behind Mike Davis and a converted WR. It's like ppl forgot how much guys like Andre Brown and Andre Williams sucked. So much so that we had to sign a guy like Rashad Jennings to play RB for us for several years.

Or realize that RBs are OL dependent and not the other way around and fix the real problem?

In comment 15425046 RomanWH said:

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"Just draft a RB later!" and point to the few that turned into something as their "proof" it works. "Jacobs and Bradshaw!" they shout. These 2 Giants are exceptions. Since 2007, the Giants have drafted: -2009 Andre Brown (4th) -2011 Da'Rel Scott (7th) -2012 David Wilson (1st) -2013 Michael Cox (7th) -2014 Andre Williams (4th) -2016 Paul Perkins (5th) -2017 Wayne Gallman (4th) -2018 Saquon Barkley (1st) None of those drafted in the lower rounds were worth keeping. Aside from Wayne Gallman, none are on NFL rosters currently. And Gallman is such a solid RB that he got released by the 49ers after signing as a FA and is now 3rd string in Atlanta behind Mike Davis and a converted WR. It's like ppl forgot how much guys like Andre Brown and Andre Williams sucked. So much so that we had to sign a guy like Rashad Jennings to play RB for us for several years.

I actually think you are proving that the Giants should NEVER draft a running back since they obviously suck at it...

In comment 15425050 Producer said:

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In comment 15425046 RomanWH said: Quote: "Just draft a RB later!" and point to the few that turned into something as their "proof" it works. "Jacobs and Bradshaw!" they shout. These 2 Giants are exceptions. Since 2007, the Giants have drafted: -2009 Andre Brown (4th) -2011 Da'Rel Scott (7th) -2012 David Wilson (1st) -2013 Michael Cox (7th) -2014 Andre Williams (4th) -2016 Paul Perkins (5th) -2017 Wayne Gallman (4th) -2018 Saquon Barkley (1st) None of those drafted in the lower rounds were worth keeping. Aside from Wayne Gallman, none are on NFL rosters currently. And Gallman is such a solid RB that he got released by the 49ers after signing as a FA and is now 3rd string in Atlanta behind Mike Davis and a converted WR. It's like ppl forgot how much guys like Andre Brown and Andre Williams sucked. So much so that we had to sign a guy like Rashad Jennings to play RB for us for several years. sorry you're tired. If you notice from your list, it wasn't worth it for the Giants to draft first round RBs either. So would you rather fail with a 4th round pick or a 1st round pick, since the organization seems unable to identify good RB talent regardless where they pick them.

Don't misunderstand the point I'm making. I'm not advocating for straight up using high picks on RBs either. I'm merely refuting the myth that it's so easy to find quality RB talent in the later rounds. Like it's a foregone conclusion that some guy who fell to the 5th or 6th will be amazing. I know it's not groundbreaking when I repeat the often said phrase that "drafting's a crapshoot" but it is. There is no guarantee that picking a RB in the later rounds will amount to anything either.

Fix the front office and scouting. Everything else will fall in line after that. Until then, it won't matter what round a RB gets taken. Nobody should have any faith that this front office knows what it is doing. That's my point.

In comment 15425043 Justlurking said:

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Are. When you add in their salaries and the fact that Saquon was the number two pick you have to wonder if anyone in this organization has any idea what they are doing. Every week I watch back ups from other teams look like Barry sanders compared to our backs

I made a similar remark last night on the Browns/Broncos game thread. It's really unbelievable that this organization can't draft quality OLs or find quality RBs later in the draft or UDFA. I'm convinced there are quite a few BBIers who could locate competent RBs better than the clowns at Jints Central.

Look, a significant key to getting out of this tailspin is solving this decades long OL crisis. Because it is a crisis. And finding quality OLs is one of the most difficult things to do in the NFL. So if we can find the right expert(s) to finally stop the misses, we will finally be ready to compete.

When in doubt, focus on OLs in round one because the hit % is the best of any position. Hell, right now, I'd use the two picks we have in the '22 draft to take the two best OLs. Just play the odds at this point.

In comment 15425046 RomanWH said:

Quote:

"Just draft a RB later!" and point to the few that turned into something as their "proof" it works. "Jacobs and Bradshaw!" they shout. These 2 Giants are exceptions. Since 2007, the Giants have drafted: -2009 Andre Brown (4th) -2011 Da'Rel Scott (7th) -2012 David Wilson (1st) -2013 Michael Cox (7th) -2014 Andre Williams (4th) -2016 Paul Perkins (5th) -2017 Wayne Gallman (4th) -2018 Saquon Barkley (1st) None of those drafted in the lower rounds were worth keeping. Aside from Wayne Gallman, none are on NFL rosters currently. And Gallman is such a solid RB that he got released by the 49ers after signing as a FA and is now 3rd string in Atlanta behind Mike Davis and a converted WR. It's like ppl forgot how much guys like Andre Brown and Andre Williams sucked. So much so that we had to sign a guy like Rashad Jennings to play RB for us for several years.

And?

That says more about:
-our problems at OL
-poor talent evaluation
-poor player development.

The "Just draft a RB later!" philosophy isn't wrong because the Giants suck at executing it.

In comment 15425071 RomanWH said:

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In comment 15425050 Producer said: Quote: In comment 15425046 RomanWH said: Quote: "Just draft a RB later!" and point to the few that turned into something as their "proof" it works. "Jacobs and Bradshaw!" they shout. These 2 Giants are exceptions. Since 2007, the Giants have drafted: -2009 Andre Brown (4th) -2011 Da'Rel Scott (7th) -2012 David Wilson (1st) -2013 Michael Cox (7th) -2014 Andre Williams (4th) -2016 Paul Perkins (5th) -2017 Wayne Gallman (4th) -2018 Saquon Barkley (1st) None of those drafted in the lower rounds were worth keeping. Aside from Wayne Gallman, none are on NFL rosters currently. And Gallman is such a solid RB that he got released by the 49ers after signing as a FA and is now 3rd string in Atlanta behind Mike Davis and a converted WR. It's like ppl forgot how much guys like Andre Brown and Andre Williams sucked. So much so that we had to sign a guy like Rashad Jennings to play RB for us for several years. sorry you're tired. If you notice from your list, it wasn't worth it for the Giants to draft first round RBs either. So would you rather fail with a 4th round pick or a 1st round pick, since the organization seems unable to identify good RB talent regardless where they pick them. Don't misunderstand the point I'm making. I'm not advocating for straight up using high picks on RBs either. I'm merely refuting the myth that it's so easy to find quality RB talent in the later rounds. Like it's a foregone conclusion that some guy who fell to the 5th or 6th will be amazing. I know it's not groundbreaking when I repeat the often said phrase that "drafting's a crapshoot" but it is. There is no guarantee that picking a RB in the later rounds will amount to anything either. Fix the front office and scouting. Everything else will fall in line after that. Until then, it won't matter what round a RB gets taken. Nobody should have any faith that this front office knows what it is doing. That's my point.

I think we can all agree with you the Giants need to do better selecting RBs. We drafted Brightwell, who is MIA, and a few picks later Chicago took Khalil Herbert.

In comment 15425040 chuckydee9 said:

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In comment 15425037 Toth029 said: Quote: Chubb has only been healthy in 2 of his 4 seasons so far. Think Bronco fans love that pick right now? That's one more than Barkley.. but then again you are just talking about the players picked.. The entire process that the FO followed was wrong..

Chubb isn't helping Broncos, is he? He's played in 35 games out of the possible 54 played so far. (Barkley is at 36)

Again, I don't disagree with the selection of a RB in the top 10. Or picking up journeymen for line fixes. Solder was the best of what was available - and the other alternative was Flowers. But my issue in this is how fans are being so selective with the players chosen rather than what happened in real time. Nelson in a trade down would've been fantastic. So would have taken Zach Martin over Odell in 2014. The line has been problematic for going on ten seasons. They've put premium picks on the line, but they did a poor job of picking the right ones, and this dates back to Will Beatty in 2009.

Using this business of "well they should have done this [here] and chosen this position [here]..." instead of what the actual projections were pre draft - it's just silly. Hindsight is always easy.

In comment 15425034 Toth029 said:

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Remember how hot people were on Drew Lock. Both he and Haskins have stunk.

I don't remember many here "hot" on Haskins. I like Lock, but mainly because I thought he was a developmental QB you could get in the 2nd round. And I was absolutely on the trade down train prior to that draft.

If 2018 was just one bad draft for DG, few here would be complaining. Even the best orgs screw up drafts. But DG campaigned on fixing the OL, and applied relatively little draft capital to do it. Taking Barkley was like buying a fixer-upper and using your home equity to buy a sports car rather than fixing the plumbing.

In comment 15424902 sb from NYT Forum said:

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...to Gettleman to swap our #2 overall for their #4 overall. JFC can you imagine? The Giants likely could have had Nelson, Braden Smith AND Nick Chubb. (of course, Gettleman could have drafted Smith but took Hernandez... sm damn h.)

So Cleveland, who picked first and took Baker Mayfield, was offering both their second rounders to move to 2???????

In comment 15425094 Biteymax22 said:

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In comment 15424902 sb from NYT Forum said: Quote: ...to Gettleman to swap our #2 overall for their #4 overall. JFC can you imagine? The Giants likely could have had Nelson, Braden Smith AND Nick Chubb. (of course, Gettleman could have drafted Smith but took Hernandez... sm damn h.) So Cleveland, who picked first and took Baker Mayfield, was offering both their second rounders to move to 2???????

And as I write that it just hit me that they had 2 first round picks that year..... My bad.

Still don't see them having made that offer.

In comment 15425094 Biteymax22 said:

Quote:

In comment 15424902 sb from NYT Forum said: Quote: ...to Gettleman to swap our #2 overall for their #4 overall. JFC can you imagine? The Giants likely could have had Nelson, Braden Smith AND Nick Chubb. (of course, Gettleman could have drafted Smith but took Hernandez... sm damn h.) So Cleveland, who picked first and took Baker Mayfield, was offering both their second rounders to move to 2???????

If true, I've got to think they wanted Barkley. I mean, who else would they move up 2 spots for? Just think about that though, Quentin Nelson, Darius Leonard and Nick Chubb. Wow.

At the time of the pick

Again today....ugh!

Set the wheels In motion for the mess they find themselves in

At the time of the pick

Again today....ugh!

Set the wheels In motion for the mess they find themselves in

Not the worst player picked, but given the situation it was catastrophic.

In comment 15425081 Producer said:

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In comment 15425071 RomanWH said: Quote: In comment 15425050 Producer said: Quote: In comment 15425046 RomanWH said: Quote: "Just draft a RB later!" and point to the few that turned into something as their "proof" it works. "Jacobs and Bradshaw!" they shout. These 2 Giants are exceptions. Since 2007, the Giants have drafted: -2009 Andre Brown (4th) -2011 Da'Rel Scott (7th) -2012 David Wilson (1st) -2013 Michael Cox (7th) -2014 Andre Williams (4th) -2016 Paul Perkins (5th) -2017 Wayne Gallman (4th) -2018 Saquon Barkley (1st) None of those drafted in the lower rounds were worth keeping. Aside from Wayne Gallman, none are on NFL rosters currently. And Gallman is such a solid RB that he got released by the 49ers after signing as a FA and is now 3rd string in Atlanta behind Mike Davis and a converted WR. It's like ppl forgot how much guys like Andre Brown and Andre Williams sucked. So much so that we had to sign a guy like Rashad Jennings to play RB for us for several years. sorry you're tired. If you notice from your list, it wasn't worth it for the Giants to draft first round RBs either. So would you rather fail with a 4th round pick or a 1st round pick, since the organization seems unable to identify good RB talent regardless where they pick them. Don't misunderstand the point I'm making. I'm not advocating for straight up using high picks on RBs either. I'm merely refuting the myth that it's so easy to find quality RB talent in the later rounds. Like it's a foregone conclusion that some guy who fell to the 5th or 6th will be amazing. I know it's not groundbreaking when I repeat the often said phrase that "drafting's a crapshoot" but it is. There is no guarantee that picking a RB in the later rounds will amount to anything either. Fix the front office and scouting. Everything else will fall in line after that. Until then, it won't matter what round a RB gets taken. Nobody should have any faith that this front office knows what it is doing. That's my point. I think we can all agree with you the Giants need to do better selecting RBs. We drafted Brightwell, who is MIA, and a few picks later Chicago took Khalil Herbert.

I was thinking about drafting Rhamondre Stevenson in the fourth round myself. The Patriots drafted him instead.

While we’re rehashing the 2018 draft, it’s worth re-ranting my complaint at the time. There is no cost or risk to sitting at the phone and waiting until the last 5 seconds to make the pick. You never know what team gets nervous and calls to make a trade up. Maybe the Jets start fearing that there’s a team that will jump them for Sam Darnold. Maybe they call with an offer of a 3rd or 4th to move up one spot. Maybe it doesn’t happen, but what do you gain by rushing the pick?

And I know it’s way too much to ask to not fall in love with any one player. If you allowed yourself to stay neutral, instead of being locked in on Barkley, then you might consider other offers to move down.

It was an amateurish emotional impulsive move to draft so quickly. The story was gentleman wanted to draft immediately, but the nfl made him wait a few minutes for tv.

In comment 15424922 jvm52106 said:

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say that Barkley was the pick that doomed DG's "rebuild" and not Jones. Barkley teased us with his rookie year but how many of those were just untouched big runs that as the Ol deteriorated they became less and less and then the injuries etc. The lack of fixing the Ol doomed the run game and the passing game. It hastened Eli's downfall and ultimately killed Jones's progression.

How many of us called this blunder from the beginning? So many people were defending DG and just burying their head in the sand instead of realizing that this team should've been in complete rebuild day 1. I think a lot of people liked what DG did because he was fighting with the media.

But in this case the media was talking common sense questioning him. And what really has justified our opinion that the RB was an enormous blunder was that SB has unfortunately lived up to the pitfalls why you shouldn't draft a QB that early. 1- Positional value. And 2- Getting banged up.

And what really proved out point that he was overall blundering was his admission this summer that he foolishly tried to win and rebuild at the same time. But that’s the type of red flag many of us recognized when he rejoined the Giants. Being an arrogant asshole like he was is not the sign of someone that’s smart. ANYOEN doing what he did in year 1 in terms of fighting as he did it should ALWAYS waive red flags. Especially since his moves had shown he was not going all in to rebuild and it was painfully obvious he should have been.

And now that he openly admitted this summer that he mismanaged the rebuild these past 3 years, do we really think in year 4 we have a talented enough team? It’s absurd to think that. Again- it lacks common sense. It’s time for a new GM. And a 100% rebuild.

I’m a fan so I get to be wrong and second guess the GM, that’s my job in this.

The GM has to certainly be better than my guesses, and needs to better than the other 32 guys with his gig, that’s his job in this.

He needs to be the guy that sees Josh Allen and Nelson through the noise of Barkley and Darnold.

for 4 straight years. He had endless options available to him over this time period to do whatever he needed to in order to rebuild this roster in a better fashion. Many more options than most GMs since his picks were more valuable, his choices of available top players was larger, and his use of the cap was maxed out each season.

He has simply failed. He has failed in basically everything he said he set out to do. And done so in miserable fashion. Even more ridiculous is how arrogantly he went about telling everybody he knew what he was doing, from the moment he was hired to his last presser when I think the media team had to retract his false statements on a free agent he ultimately signed.

The very idea some here defended this moron, year after year, is quite frankly unbelievable.

This has been an awful time period to be a NY Giant fan. And the only thing I am happy about is that Gettleman's time is almost up...

In comment 15425046 RomanWH said:

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"Just draft a RB later!" and point to the few that turned into something as their "proof" it works. "Jacobs and Bradshaw!" they shout. These 2 Giants are exceptions. Since 2007, the Giants have drafted: -2009 Andre Brown (4th) -2011 Da'Rel Scott (7th) -2012 David Wilson (1st) -2013 Michael Cox (7th) -2014 Andre Williams (4th) -2016 Paul Perkins (5th) -2017 Wayne Gallman (4th) -2018 Saquon Barkley (1st) None of those drafted in the lower rounds were worth keeping. Aside from Wayne Gallman, none are on NFL rosters currently. And Gallman is such a solid RB that he got released by the 49ers after signing as a FA and is now 3rd string in Atlanta behind Mike Davis and a converted WR. It's like ppl forgot how much guys like Andre Brown and Andre Williams sucked. So much so that we had to sign a guy like Rashad Jennings to play RB for us for several years.

LOL, this is making the point to as might as well take a shot in later rounds no?

I mean the browns trotted out an undrafted free agent and a 6th rounder last night. Didn’t skip a beat. It’s almost like a running game is much bigger than just the RB..

1. This isn’t “hindsight” for a lot of us. There were a lot of us here that said it was stupid to use the overall 2 on a RB1. It was dumb then and it’s still dumb.

2. This isn’t some kind of “next generation” insight. It’s been dumb to take RB1 at the 2 since the salary cap. One would have to obstinate and arrogant and foolish to ignore the relatively simple concept of the salary cap and positional value. To say nothing of average career lifespan by position.

3. The truth about Barkley was always that he would struggle as a “bell cow” back. We’ve all, by now, seen the stats of Barkley’s hit or miss yards from college. He’s actually pretty much in the NFL what he was at PSU. Shocker!

4. My last point is this, and made to all those who now say “hindsight” or “you wanted Rosen” or some variation of this notion that I or some other poster on BBI couldn’t have done any better than Dave Gettleman. Okay, maybe, but it’s actually hard to understand how I or anyone else could have a record worse than Gettleman’s. He’s been pathetic and hardly won at all. And, this is is important too, I make my living in technology. Me and the other posters here on BBI aren’t Gettleman’s competition or measuring standard. Gettleman is competing against 31 other people lucky enough to be NFL GMs. Not me and Go Terps or bw. Gettleman has been an unmitigated disaster and a monumental failure. The Barkley pick was just the beginning.

threads on this topic, I pointed out that the vast majority of the top 10 rushers were not drafted in the first round, or was a QB. A lot of 2nd and 3rd rounders, or lower.

Those pointing out the folly of finding one in the lower rounds ignore the 2nd/3rd round.

A few posters (including, I think, the much maligned bw) pointed out the cap cost folly of a RB at 2, and many pointed out the injury risk, the putting the cart before the horse re: OL, and the value of a trade down.

I don't think anyone foresaw just how much SB was going to be injured.

I'm not all that hung up on the speed to the podium. The Giants were dead set on SB, and weren't listening to offers. At # 2, they knew if a can't pass it up offer was to be had. The phones had been worked in the weeks prior. It's not like Baker going #1 threw the draft into disarray and GMs around the league suddenly realized they might want to inquire about #2. There very well may have been a decent offer on the table, but the Giants group think were hung up SB and thought him more valuable than the offer (s).

It truly doesn’t matter to me the alternatives. Whether someone wanted Rosen. Or Chubb wouldn’t have been worth It. It’s not the hindsight for me of every player in the 2018 draft. It’s sitting at #2 in a big QB draft, any draft for that matter, and RUNNING to make the pick of a RB. I don’t care what’s true or not in trade rumors. There were at the very least calls that could’ve been taken, we’ll never know. Which is the same rumor about the OBJ trade…It wasn’t shopped. That’s more important to me than OBJ failing in CLEV. There were too many teams that ended up trading that not to not even EXPLORE the possibility. It’s smug and it’s a laughably stupid way.

At the least a call from the jets could’ve came. Move back one spot AND STILL make a I’ll advised RB pick, but at least obtain more capital. I do actually feel us morons with our stomachs hanging out on the couch use better logic.

Can someone explain to me why we threw as much $ at Booker that we did when his market was pretty much, uh, nonexistent?

there's at least one or two or three FAs the Giants have seemingly overspent on when there's no visible alternate bidding partner. Maybe we don't see the full market, but it seems like we bid against ourselves a lot in the DG era.

In comment 15425088 Toth029 said:

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In comment 15425040 chuckydee9 said: Quote: In comment 15425037 Toth029 said: Quote: Chubb has only been healthy in 2 of his 4 seasons so far. Think Bronco fans love that pick right now? That's one more than Barkley.. but then again you are just talking about the players picked.. The entire process that the FO followed was wrong.. Chubb isn't helping Broncos, is he? He's played in 35 games out of the possible 54 played so far. (Barkley is at 36) Again, I don't disagree with the selection of a RB in the top 10. Or picking up journeymen for line fixes. Solder was the best of what was available - and the other alternative was Flowers. But my issue in this is how fans are being so selective with the players chosen rather than what happened in real time. Nelson in a trade down would've been fantastic. So would have taken Zach Martin over Odell in 2014. The line has been problematic for going on ten seasons. They've put premium picks on the line, but they did a poor job of picking the right ones, and this dates back to Will Beatty in 2009. Using this business of "well they should have done this [here] and chosen this position [here]..." instead of what the actual projections were pre draft - it's just silly. Hindsight is always easy.

But drafting a guy like Chubb isn't dependent on 5 other players playing well to have success, that's the difference. It's not that the players turned out bad, it's that the Giants drafted a position that generally relies on the success of multiple other positions to perform well.

When you had as many holes as the 2018 Giants did, you need guys that can make an immediate impact on an island. That tends to be defensive picks and OL. RB and WR (to a degree) are completely reliant on the strength of the rest of the offensive unit to be successful.

In the trenches entering that draft. Look at the guys under contract entering the draft along the OL/DL. The decision was to either A) draft the QB of the future (which they didn’t do), or B) add as much talent to the core roster as possible, considering a trade down. They did neither.

Name dropping a few busts in the draft is a ridiculous argument. The organization’s vision for the future and how to get there was fatally flawed evident simply in their approach to that draft, and it had a ripple effect on future years still being felt now.

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Wow. Giants GM Gettleman openly admits he didn’t even listen to offers for #2 pick once Mayfield went #1. That’s embarrassing, and the arrogance that made him unpopular to many Panthers players.

Link - ( New Window )

In comment 15425088 Toth029 said:

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In comment 15425040 chuckydee9 said: Quote: Again, I don't disagree with the selection of a RB in the top 10. Or picking up journeymen for line fixes. Solder was the best of what was available - and the other alternative was Flowers. . . They've put premium picks on the line, but they did a poor job of picking the right ones, and this dates back to Will Beatty in 2009. Using this business of "well they should have done this [here] and chosen this position [here]..." instead of what the actual projections were pre draft - it's just silly. Hindsight is always easy.

1-- Barkley was selected 2nd. That's the main issue. Who cares about a rb picked number 10 or 9. If you think drafting a rb with the overall number 2 pick on a rebuild is the right move then we'd be calling you a complete moron too. I hope you’re not suggesting a number 2 pick for a rebuilding team is generally a smart pick, are you?

2-- But Solder and Flowers were not the only choices fi the GM was smart enough to recognize the team was going to suck. For example, another alternative would've been to trade for a younger OT and even if he wasn't so hot, so what? It's a rebuilding team. The idea to trade for an aging LT and pay such an extreme amount of money never made sense unless as DG has recently said, he was trying to win. Thus a decent GM with common sense would've recognized Solder as not an option to replace Flowers and instead gotten a cheaper guy such as through a trade.

3--- One thing that we know that is not hindsight is - it's that the pick for a RB at number 2 was awful for a rebuilding team.

and draft Barkley when you could have drafted Nick Chubb on the second round. To draft Allen and Chubb would have required no draft day trades, merely selecting when it's your turn. Gettleman hit on Thomas and Toney (well done) but the Barkley instead of Allen mistake will haunt this team for a long time.

In comment 15425377 BH28 said:

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In comment 15425088 Toth029 said: Quote: In comment 15425040 chuckydee9 said: Quote: In comment 15425037 Toth029 said: Quote: Chubb has only been healthy in 2 of his 4 seasons so far. Think Bronco fans love that pick right now? That's one more than Barkley.. but then again you are just talking about the players picked.. The entire process that the FO followed was wrong.. Chubb isn't helping Broncos, is he? He's played in 35 games out of the possible 54 played so far. (Barkley is at 36) Again, I don't disagree with the selection of a RB in the top 10. Or picking up journeymen for line fixes. Solder was the best of what was available - and the other alternative was Flowers. But my issue in this is how fans are being so selective with the players chosen rather than what happened in real time. Nelson in a trade down would've been fantastic. So would have taken Zach Martin over Odell in 2014. The line has been problematic for going on ten seasons. They've put premium picks on the line, but they did a poor job of picking the right ones, and this dates back to Will Beatty in 2009. Using this business of "well they should have done this [here] and chosen this position [here]..." instead of what the actual projections were pre draft - it's just silly. Hindsight is always easy. But drafting a guy like Chubb isn't dependent on 5 other players playing well to have success, that's the difference. It's not that the players turned out bad, it's that the Giants drafted a position that generally relies on the success of multiple other positions to perform well. When you had as many holes as the 2018 Giants did, you need guys that can make an immediate impact on an island. That tends to be defensive picks and OL. RB and WR (to a degree) are completely reliant on the strength of the rest of the offensive unit to be successful.

Drafting a RB at #2 overall when you don't have anything close to a functional OL is an awful lot like investing a shitload of cap dollars and picks in the secondary when you don't have a pass rush.

And people wonder why this team still sucks?

A highly successful tackle (or any stud o-lineman makes your rb better AND makes your qb better. Two for one. You just have to pick the right one . . .

I would fire him to eliminate any possible chance we compound our error and re-sign Saquan to a second contract.

In comment 15425551 GeofromNJ said:

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and draft Barkley when you could have drafted Nick Chubb on the second round. To draft Allen and Chubb would have required no draft day trades, merely selecting when it's your turn. Gettleman hit on Thomas and Toney (well done) but the Barkley instead of Allen mistake will haunt this team for a long time.

Barkley was a poor use of draft resources. But the hindsight regarding Allen is not a fair IMO. Allen would have run into the same problems with this team as Eli and Daniel.

But I’d go beyond that and say that Barkley is simply not a very effective HB. DG made a serious scouting error when he had him rated as the best player since Peyton. And it’s not the injuries, it’s the mediocre vision. I’m also not convinced Barkley is a talented receiver out of the backfield.

He just doesn’t help his team win. This is a Gold Jacket player? Ooof.

Have some similarities. Both have either phenomenal or pretty decent athleticism for their position, but both are slow processors and reactors on the field. Same with Will Hernandez, in fact.

This is going to sound geeky but the picks undervalue the mental part of the game.

In comment 15425646 cosmicj said:

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Have some similarities. Both have either phenomenal or pretty decent athleticism for their position, but both are slow processors and reactors on the field. Same with Will Hernandez, in fact. This is going to sound geeky but the picks undervalue the mental part of the game.

Contrast both of them with Lamar Jackson, who many professionals (Bill Polian comes to mind) inferred he wasn't smart enough to play quarterback and who many on this board still(!) call stupid. Yet he plays in the pocket like he's got eyes on the back of his head and his instincts for finding space are incredible.

In comment 15425628 AnnapolisMike said:

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In comment 15425551 GeofromNJ said: Quote: and draft Barkley when you could have drafted Nick Chubb on the second round. To draft Allen and Chubb would have required no draft day trades, merely selecting when it's your turn. Gettleman hit on Thomas and Toney (well done) but the Barkley instead of Allen mistake will haunt this team for a long time. Barkley was a poor use of draft resources. But the hindsight regarding Allen is not a fair IMO. Allen would have run into the same problems with this team as Eli and Daniel.

Incorrect. Allen is many times more talented than Jones and late stage Eli.

player in that draft, but it wasn't Barkley. It was Quenton Nelson.

I listened to the Papa Banks podcast with Scott Pioli. It's an excellent listen I highly recommend it.

They covered a lot of topics and jumped around a lot but something he said really registered with me. They talked about how often you miss in the draft and Pioli said he felt bad for certain players who took a lot of heat because of where they drafted. He said GM's should do a better job managing expectations. So I guess touched by the hand of god, gold jacket guy isn't what he'd have in mind.

I want to listen to it again because it was so good. Carl Banks was way better when he didn't have to try to defend the current Giants. A lot of great conversation about both of their time with Parcells, Belichick and others from their staffs. Pioli even said Ernie Adams name out loud. I didn't think that was allowed.

For this who don't know Pioli is married to Bill Parcells daughter.

There was one part that made me laugh. So many times we hear people say your can't compare a football team to a "regular" business but after listening to this podcast I'd use it as evidence you can.

Pioli talked about the office politics between the "football guys" and the analytics departments. Sounded like the hundreds of sales department and marketing deperatment disputes I had to officiate. Banks mentioned that he would tell players to scueed they need to show up on time, pay attention and work hard. That's the part that made me laugh. I can't even count the number of times I told young people starting out show up, shut up and bust your ass.

This advice applies to any business. 80% of sucess is showing up. 10% is talent and 10% is luck. The best thing you can be for a HC or a manger in medium size business is available and reilable.

Once they find out you can be counted on to always show up and always give effort and don't go into business for yourself but carry out orders well they'll give you more and more to do as long as you can handle it. You'll wind up doing other people's work for no extra money/credit and having those people resent you but it will pay off and serve you well in the long run.

Again if I had a nickel for evefry MBA that I had to tell you're not in school anymore and you need to be part of a team for this to work. I could have retired 20 years before I did. some things seem to be universal. Football or fortune 1000 company.
Episode 8 - Former NFL GM Scott Pioli The Papa Banks Show - ( New Window )

In comment 15425740 mittenedman said:

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player in that draft, but it wasn't Barkley. It was Quenton Nelson.

How about Josh Allen? How about Lamar? Who already has one MVP.

the issue is focus. If you are going to spend a first round pick on a running back, and especially a top 5 or 6 pick, that running back becomes the focus of the offense. That means you spend picks on run blockers (pass blocking is secondary), your wideouts block or they don't play, you have a te that can block and your qb is someone careful with the ball. You also build a strong defense because you have to stay in the game sometimes until the running game gets going. If you can figure out what the Giants' focus is, let us all know because they are all over the place.

That article points to Johnson as a "talented rb" but is that the case? Or is it the case that the Browns, with Chubb and Hunt, have committed resources to the running game and the defense such that any rb can fill in for the big two for a game or two?

not to know this in 2018 when we selected Barkley. Everything I said would happen has come to fruition relating to that pick. It was a disaster at the time and we've witnessed the outcome firsthand. The only thing that can make it worse is giving him a second contract which is why it is so imperative to fire Gettleman ASAP.

In comment 15425786 Josh in the City said:

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not to know this in 2018 when we selected Barkley. Everything I said would happen has come to fruition relating to that pick. It was a disaster at the time and we've witnessed the outcome firsthand. The only thing that can make it worse is giving him a second contract which is why it is so imperative to fire Gettleman ASAP.

I look forward to the day that using that word on a public forum is viewed in the same light as the "N" word.

In comment 15425781 HomerJones45 said:

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the issue is focus. If you are going to spend a first round pick on a running back, and especially a top 5 or 6 pick, that running back becomes the focus of the offense. That means you spend picks on run blockers (pass blocking is secondary), your wideouts block or they don't play, you have a te that can block and your qb is someone careful with the ball. You also build a strong defense because you have to stay in the game sometimes until the running game gets going. If you can figure out what the Giants' focus is, let us all know because they are all over the place.

This is what makes DG so incompetent (and Judge had better address it). It was the mind-boggling belief that the RB is going to make the OL into something good. For a back like him that is NOT possible.

I've had many arguments with others that also think this way. Get a talented back and they think that will turn the OL. Sure if you are a bulldozer like Henry WHILE BEING explosive, or if your QB is elite.

This OL issue further highlights the point as well about Jones. He is a guy that needs the OL especially this early in his career too. Why the hell did they/are they “settling?”

Instead of focusing on winning the LOS battles on offense and defense, it seems like Giants are trying to win with position players on offense and the secondary on defense.

Amazing - and all of this coming from a guy that in past years it was the LOS battels the Giants won that he was a part of.

So, you can’t chalk it up to bad luck. This should have been part of the evaluation process.

He said a good RB could make his linemen play better than they would play with a bad running back. The thinking, as I recall, (and this was decades ago), was that a patient running back could wait for blocks to setup and a good RB could make guys miss even if they were unblocked and a good RB would have the field vision to see alternatives to the play.

Look, the Giants offensive line is maligned for good reason. But part of why the line has been bad is that we haven’t had talent at the other skill positions. It is a team game. I don’t think Barkley is anywhere near as good as so many people seem to think he is - or would be - with a better line. Any RB at the 2 is a almost certainly a mistake but Barkley would have been a disappointment even as a day two pick. He hasn’t been healthy and he hasn’t been a difference maker. He does make some spectacular plays but the rest of the time he’s pretty unimpressive.

... gee, who made that pick again?

Oh yeah, Dave Gettleman.

In comment 15425645 cosmicj said:

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But I’d go beyond that and say that Barkley is simply not a very effective HB. DG made a serious scouting error when he had him rated as the best player since Peyton. And it’s not the injuries, it’s the mediocre vision. I’m also not convinced Barkley is a talented receiver out of the backfield. He just doesn’t help his team win. This is a Gold Jacket player? Ooof.

Even when healthy (if that ever happens again), I've said this before, but Barkley's running style actively prevents you from winning ball games. There's a reason the offense looked better even with replacement level players like Gallman. I think even Shurmur (who for all of his follies as a HC knows offense) realized this which was why you would see him go away from Barkley a lot.

He's also terrible at pass blocking. That's a requirement for a RB in the modern NFL.

The bottom line is he's not a NFL RB at all. He's a gadget player that you have to scheme to get into open space. It was a fail on the part of our GM to realize that.

(Or, it was a mandate from ownership to get Eli the best weapon he could to make one more run. I often think this was also a motive behind the pick).

In comment 15425077 bw in dc said:

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In comment 15425043 Justlurking said: Quote: Are. When you add in their salaries and the fact that Saquon was the number two pick you have to wonder if anyone in this organization has any idea what they are doing. Every week I watch back ups from other teams look like Barry sanders compared to our backs I made a similar remark last night on the Browns/Broncos game thread. It's really unbelievable that this organization can't draft quality OLs or find quality RBs later in the draft or UDFA. I'm convinced there are quite a few BBIers who could locate competent RBs better than the clowns at Jints Central. Look, a significant key to getting out of this tailspin is solving this decades long OL crisis. Because it is a crisis. And finding quality OLs is one of the most difficult things to do in the NFL. So if we can find the right expert(s) to finally stop the misses, we will finally be ready to compete. When in doubt, focus on OLs in round one because the hit % is the best of any position. Hell, right now, I'd use the two picks we have in the '22 draft to take the two best OLs. Just play the odds at this point.

I made the point of how the Browns rebuilt their line quickly and was told (inaccurately) by the biggest Gettleman defender that their line has also been good. Yeah, had nothing to do with signing Conklin and drafting Wills