and specifically points to the Giants. No matter the hindsight (you can say the example of Josh Allen is purely based on the results now not the guarantee then) but in truth we at the very least should have fixed the OL with Quentin Nelson.
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And I know it’s way too much to ask to not fall in love with any one player. If you allowed yourself to stay neutral, instead of being locked in on Barkley, then you might consider other offers to move down.
It was an amateurish emotional impulsive move to draft so quickly. The story was gentleman wanted to draft immediately, but the nfl made him wait a few minutes for tv.
The lack of fixing the Ol doomed the run game and the passing game. It hastened Eli's downfall and ultimately killed Jones's progression.
How many of us called this blunder from the beginning? So many people were defending DG and just burying their head in the sand instead of realizing that this team should've been in complete rebuild day 1. I think a lot of people liked what DG did because he was fighting with the media.
But in this case the media was talking common sense questioning him. And what really has justified our opinion that the RB was an enormous blunder was that SB has unfortunately lived up to the pitfalls why you shouldn't draft a QB that early. 1- Positional value. And 2- Getting banged up.
And what really proved out point that he was overall blundering was his admission this summer that he foolishly tried to win and rebuild at the same time. But that’s the type of red flag many of us recognized when he rejoined the Giants. Being an arrogant asshole like he was is not the sign of someone that’s smart. ANYOEN doing what he did in year 1 in terms of fighting as he did it should ALWAYS waive red flags. Especially since his moves had shown he was not going all in to rebuild and it was painfully obvious he should have been.
And now that he openly admitted this summer that he mismanaged the rebuild these past 3 years, do we really think in year 4 we have a talented enough team? It’s absurd to think that. Again- it lacks common sense. It’s time for a new GM. And a 100% rebuild.
The GM has to certainly be better than my guesses, and needs to better than the other 32 guys with his gig, that’s his job in this.
He needs to be the guy that sees Josh Allen and Nelson through the noise of Barkley and Darnold.
He has simply failed. He has failed in basically everything he said he set out to do. And done so in miserable fashion. Even more ridiculous is how arrogantly he went about telling everybody he knew what he was doing, from the moment he was hired to his last presser when I think the media team had to retract his false statements on a free agent he ultimately signed.
The very idea some here defended this moron, year after year, is quite frankly unbelievable.
This has been an awful time period to be a NY Giant fan. And the only thing I am happy about is that Gettleman's time is almost up...
Since 2007, the Giants have drafted:
-2009 Andre Brown (4th)
-2011 Da'Rel Scott (7th)
-2012 David Wilson (1st)
-2013 Michael Cox (7th)
-2014 Andre Williams (4th)
-2016 Paul Perkins (5th)
-2017 Wayne Gallman (4th)
-2018 Saquon Barkley (1st)
None of those drafted in the lower rounds were worth keeping. Aside from Wayne Gallman, none are on NFL rosters currently. And Gallman is such a solid RB that he got released by the 49ers after signing as a FA and is now 3rd string in Atlanta behind Mike Davis and a converted WR.
It's like ppl forgot how much guys like Andre Brown and Andre Williams sucked. So much so that we had to sign a guy like Rashad Jennings to play RB for us for several years.
LOL, this is making the point to as might as well take a shot in later rounds no?
I mean the browns trotted out an undrafted free agent and a 6th rounder last night. Didn’t skip a beat. It’s almost like a running game is much bigger than just the RB..
2. This isn’t some kind of “next generation” insight. It’s been dumb to take RB1 at the 2 since the salary cap. One would have to obstinate and arrogant and foolish to ignore the relatively simple concept of the salary cap and positional value. To say nothing of average career lifespan by position.
3. The truth about Barkley was always that he would struggle as a “bell cow” back. We’ve all, by now, seen the stats of Barkley’s hit or miss yards from college. He’s actually pretty much in the NFL what he was at PSU. Shocker!
4. My last point is this, and made to all those who now say “hindsight” or “you wanted Rosen” or some variation of this notion that I or some other poster on BBI couldn’t have done any better than Dave Gettleman. Okay, maybe, but it’s actually hard to understand how I or anyone else could have a record worse than Gettleman’s. He’s been pathetic and hardly won at all. And, this is is important too, I make my living in technology. Me and the other posters here on BBI aren’t Gettleman’s competition or measuring standard. Gettleman is competing against 31 other people lucky enough to be NFL GMs. Not me and Go Terps or bw. Gettleman has been an unmitigated disaster and a monumental failure. The Barkley pick was just the beginning.
Those pointing out the folly of finding one in the lower rounds ignore the 2nd/3rd round.
A few posters (including, I think, the much maligned bw) pointed out the cap cost folly of a RB at 2, and many pointed out the injury risk, the putting the cart before the horse re: OL, and the value of a trade down.
I don't think anyone foresaw just how much SB was going to be injured.
I'm not all that hung up on the speed to the podium. The Giants were dead set on SB, and weren't listening to offers. At # 2, they knew if a can't pass it up offer was to be had. The phones had been worked in the weeks prior. It's not like Baker going #1 threw the draft into disarray and GMs around the league suddenly realized they might want to inquire about #2. There very well may have been a decent offer on the table, but the Giants group think were hung up SB and thought him more valuable than the offer (s).
At the least a call from the jets could’ve came. Move back one spot AND STILL make a I’ll advised RB pick, but at least obtain more capital. I do actually feel us morons with our stomachs hanging out on the couch use better logic.
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In comment 15425037 Toth029 said:
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Chubb has only been healthy in 2 of his 4 seasons so far.
Think Bronco fans love that pick right now?
That's one more than Barkley.. but then again you are just talking about the players picked.. The entire process that the FO followed was wrong..
Chubb isn't helping Broncos, is he? He's played in 35 games out of the possible 54 played so far. (Barkley is at 36)
Again, I don't disagree with the selection of a RB in the top 10. Or picking up journeymen for line fixes. Solder was the best of what was available - and the other alternative was Flowers. But my issue in this is how fans are being so selective with the players chosen rather than what happened in real time. Nelson in a trade down would've been fantastic. So would have taken Zach Martin over Odell in 2014. The line has been problematic for going on ten seasons. They've put premium picks on the line, but they did a poor job of picking the right ones, and this dates back to Will Beatty in 2009.
Using this business of "well they should have done this [here] and chosen this position [here]..." instead of what the actual projections were pre draft - it's just silly. Hindsight is always easy.
But drafting a guy like Chubb isn't dependent on 5 other players playing well to have success, that's the difference. It's not that the players turned out bad, it's that the Giants drafted a position that generally relies on the success of multiple other positions to perform well.
When you had as many holes as the 2018 Giants did, you need guys that can make an immediate impact on an island. That tends to be defensive picks and OL. RB and WR (to a degree) are completely reliant on the strength of the rest of the offensive unit to be successful.
Name dropping a few busts in the draft is a ridiculous argument. The organization’s vision for the future and how to get there was fatally flawed evident simply in their approach to that draft, and it had a ripple effect on future years still being felt now.
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Again, I don't disagree with the selection of a RB in the top 10. Or picking up journeymen for line fixes. Solder was the best of what was available - and the other alternative was Flowers. . . They've put premium picks on the line, but they did a poor job of picking the right ones, and this dates back to Will Beatty in 2009.
Using this business of "well they should have done this [here] and chosen this position [here]..." instead of what the actual projections were pre draft - it's just silly. Hindsight is always easy.
1-- Barkley was selected 2nd. That's the main issue. Who cares about a rb picked number 10 or 9. If you think drafting a rb with the overall number 2 pick on a rebuild is the right move then we'd be calling you a complete moron too. I hope you’re not suggesting a number 2 pick for a rebuilding team is generally a smart pick, are you?
2-- But Solder and Flowers were not the only choices fi the GM was smart enough to recognize the team was going to suck. For example, another alternative would've been to trade for a younger OT and even if he wasn't so hot, so what? It's a rebuilding team. The idea to trade for an aging LT and pay such an extreme amount of money never made sense unless as DG has recently said, he was trying to win. Thus a decent GM with common sense would've recognized Solder as not an option to replace Flowers and instead gotten a cheaper guy such as through a trade.
3--- One thing that we know that is not hindsight is - it's that the pick for a RB at number 2 was awful for a rebuilding team.
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In comment 15425040 chuckydee9 said:
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In comment 15425037 Toth029 said:
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Chubb has only been healthy in 2 of his 4 seasons so far.
Think Bronco fans love that pick right now?
That's one more than Barkley.. but then again you are just talking about the players picked.. The entire process that the FO followed was wrong..
Chubb isn't helping Broncos, is he? He's played in 35 games out of the possible 54 played so far. (Barkley is at 36)
Again, I don't disagree with the selection of a RB in the top 10. Or picking up journeymen for line fixes. Solder was the best of what was available - and the other alternative was Flowers. But my issue in this is how fans are being so selective with the players chosen rather than what happened in real time. Nelson in a trade down would've been fantastic. So would have taken Zach Martin over Odell in 2014. The line has been problematic for going on ten seasons. They've put premium picks on the line, but they did a poor job of picking the right ones, and this dates back to Will Beatty in 2009.
Using this business of "well they should have done this [here] and chosen this position [here]..." instead of what the actual projections were pre draft - it's just silly. Hindsight is always easy.
But drafting a guy like Chubb isn't dependent on 5 other players playing well to have success, that's the difference. It's not that the players turned out bad, it's that the Giants drafted a position that generally relies on the success of multiple other positions to perform well.
When you had as many holes as the 2018 Giants did, you need guys that can make an immediate impact on an island. That tends to be defensive picks and OL. RB and WR (to a degree) are completely reliant on the strength of the rest of the offensive unit to be successful.
Drafting a RB at #2 overall when you don't have anything close to a functional OL is an awful lot like investing a shitload of cap dollars and picks in the secondary when you don't have a pass rush.
And people wonder why this team still sucks?
Barkley was a poor use of draft resources. But the hindsight regarding Allen is not a fair IMO. Allen would have run into the same problems with this team as Eli and Daniel.
He just doesn’t help his team win. This is a Gold Jacket player? Ooof.
This is going to sound geeky but the picks undervalue the mental part of the game.
This is going to sound geeky but the picks undervalue the mental part of the game.
Contrast both of them with Lamar Jackson, who many professionals (Bill Polian comes to mind) inferred he wasn't smart enough to play quarterback and who many on this board still(!) call stupid. Yet he plays in the pocket like he's got eyes on the back of his head and his instincts for finding space are incredible.
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and draft Barkley when you could have drafted Nick Chubb on the second round. To draft Allen and Chubb would have required no draft day trades, merely selecting when it's your turn. Gettleman hit on Thomas and Toney (well done) but the Barkley instead of Allen mistake will haunt this team for a long time.
Barkley was a poor use of draft resources. But the hindsight regarding Allen is not a fair IMO. Allen would have run into the same problems with this team as Eli and Daniel.
Incorrect. Allen is many times more talented than Jones and late stage Eli.
They covered a lot of topics and jumped around a lot but something he said really registered with me. They talked about how often you miss in the draft and Pioli said he felt bad for certain players who took a lot of heat because of where they drafted. He said GM's should do a better job managing expectations. So I guess touched by the hand of god, gold jacket guy isn't what he'd have in mind.
I want to listen to it again because it was so good. Carl Banks was way better when he didn't have to try to defend the current Giants. A lot of great conversation about both of their time with Parcells, Belichick and others from their staffs. Pioli even said Ernie Adams name out loud. I didn't think that was allowed.
For this who don't know Pioli is married to Bill Parcells daughter.
There was one part that made me laugh. So many times we hear people say your can't compare a football team to a "regular" business but after listening to this podcast I'd use it as evidence you can.
Pioli talked about the office politics between the "football guys" and the analytics departments. Sounded like the hundreds of sales department and marketing deperatment disputes I had to officiate. Banks mentioned that he would tell players to scueed they need to show up on time, pay attention and work hard. That's the part that made me laugh. I can't even count the number of times I told young people starting out show up, shut up and bust your ass.
This advice applies to any business. 80% of sucess is showing up. 10% is talent and 10% is luck. The best thing you can be for a HC or a manger in medium size business is available and reilable.
Once they find out you can be counted on to always show up and always give effort and don't go into business for yourself but carry out orders well they'll give you more and more to do as long as you can handle it. You'll wind up doing other people's work for no extra money/credit and having those people resent you but it will pay off and serve you well in the long run.
Again if I had a nickel for evefry MBA that I had to tell you're not in school anymore and you need to be part of a team for this to work. I could have retired 20 years before I did. some things seem to be universal. Football or fortune 1000 company.
Episode 8 - Former NFL GM Scott Pioli The Papa Banks Show - ( New Window )
How about Josh Allen? How about Lamar? Who already has one MVP.
That article points to Johnson as a "talented rb" but is that the case? Or is it the case that the Browns, with Chubb and Hunt, have committed resources to the running game and the defense such that any rb can fill in for the big two for a game or two?
I look forward to the day that using that word on a public forum is viewed in the same light as the "N" word.
This is what makes DG so incompetent (and Judge had better address it). It was the mind-boggling belief that the RB is going to make the OL into something good. For a back like him that is NOT possible.
I've had many arguments with others that also think this way. Get a talented back and they think that will turn the OL. Sure if you are a bulldozer like Henry WHILE BEING explosive, or if your QB is elite.
This OL issue further highlights the point as well about Jones. He is a guy that needs the OL especially this early in his career too. Why the hell did they/are they “settling?”
Instead of focusing on winning the LOS battles on offense and defense, it seems like Giants are trying to win with position players on offense and the secondary on defense.
Amazing - and all of this coming from a guy that in past years it was the LOS battels the Giants won that he was a part of.
Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
Dave Gettleman drafted both Saquon Barkley and Christian McCaffrey in the top 8. The Panthers and Giants play each other Sunday. Neither will be on the field. Hmmmmmm 🤔
Look, the Giants offensive line is maligned for good reason. But part of why the line has been bad is that we haven’t had talent at the other skill positions. It is a team game. I don’t think Barkley is anywhere near as good as so many people seem to think he is - or would be - with a better line. Any RB at the 2 is a almost certainly a mistake but Barkley would have been a disappointment even as a day two pick. He hasn’t been healthy and he hasn’t been a difference maker. He does make some spectacular plays but the rest of the time he’s pretty unimpressive.
Oh yeah, Dave Gettleman.
He just doesn’t help his team win. This is a Gold Jacket player? Ooof.
Even when healthy (if that ever happens again), I've said this before, but Barkley's running style actively prevents you from winning ball games. There's a reason the offense looked better even with replacement level players like Gallman. I think even Shurmur (who for all of his follies as a HC knows offense) realized this which was why you would see him go away from Barkley a lot.
He's also terrible at pass blocking. That's a requirement for a RB in the modern NFL.
The bottom line is he's not a NFL RB at all. He's a gadget player that you have to scheme to get into open space. It was a fail on the part of our GM to realize that.
(Or, it was a mandate from ownership to get Eli the best weapon he could to make one more run. I often think this was also a motive behind the pick).
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Are. When you add in their salaries and the fact that Saquon was the number two pick you have to wonder if anyone in this organization has any idea what they are doing. Every week I watch back ups from other teams look like Barry sanders compared to our backs
I made a similar remark last night on the Browns/Broncos game thread. It's really unbelievable that this organization can't draft quality OLs or find quality RBs later in the draft or UDFA. I'm convinced there are quite a few BBIers who could locate competent RBs better than the clowns at Jints Central.
Look, a significant key to getting out of this tailspin is solving this decades long OL crisis. Because it is a crisis. And finding quality OLs is one of the most difficult things to do in the NFL. So if we can find the right expert(s) to finally stop the misses, we will finally be ready to compete.
When in doubt, focus on OLs in round one because the hit % is the best of any position. Hell, right now, I'd use the two picks we have in the '22 draft to take the two best OLs. Just play the odds at this point.
I made the point of how the Browns rebuilt their line quickly and was told (inaccurately) by the biggest Gettleman defender that their line has also been good. Yeah, had nothing to do with signing Conklin and drafting Wills