The common denominator in this soap opera of insanity is Mara. He's been the conductor, and the train has been driven off the tracks by his actions. But the worst part as you note is that this will not change no matter what happens during the off season. He'll still be making the decisions. A change in leadership would require him to stop doing so.
correctly stated, looking at the other decisions and or would be decisions, we would most likely have been screwed in a multitude of ways by Mara's choices. He is really, really bad at what he does. No vision or direction, just running back to the well and screaming for help from sycophants or cronies, fleecing the rich guy about going back to better days.
He didn't make his money on the outside and then buy the team, it has been apart of his family his whole life. Because of his closeness, he can't see the reality of the situation, not clear minded, at least. It also leads to issues like in house hires when what's needed is a full-scale house cleaning and nostalgia for the past at the center of key decisions. Unlike most here who have a loathing for the man because he's the reason their football team isn't any good, I have respect for him as a good hearted caring person --a spare quality in a time when tough to have much faith in our leaders. At the same time, some of those same admirable qualities are likely part of the problem here, unfortunately.
He didn't make his money on the outside and then buy the team, it has been apart of his family his whole life. Because of his closeness, he can't see the reality of the situation, not clear minded, at least. It also leads to issues like in house hires when what's needed is a full-scale house cleaning and nostalgia for the past at the center of key decisions. Unlike most here who have a loathing for the man because he's the reason their football team isn't any good, I have respect for him as a good hearted caring person --a spare quality in a time when tough to have much faith in our leaders. At the same time, some of those same admirable qualities are likely part of the problem here, unfortunately.
Agree Uber and I think the great fears are coming to fruition, as this ancient family practice is getting left behind in the dust. But that being said if you look at the browns and the Bengals who have had notoriously bad ownership, seemed to have found some relevance. So we'll see.
Might be able to break down those lists of coaching candiadates
That’s a good point. I do think hiring the right GM is the key to turning things around. Making the right decision on who to hire, that’s the hard part.
“We weren’t going with a seven-year deal with anybody,” said Mara
I remember this line and it seemed arrogant and made no sense at the time.
Rhule had HC experience and had made his mark by turning around two moribund college programs. Exactly what the Giants needed. And Mara balked at giving him a seven-year contract? Really?
Judge had no HC experience, no program building experience, but was a ST coordinator under former Giant Belichick. Yet Mara was apparently perfectly willing to give him a 5-year contract.
So the two-year length difference was really the line in the sand for Mara?
We all know that Mara was too cheap to want to match/exceed Tepper's offer of 8.5 mil per year or whatever it was, and didn't think Rhule deserved that kind of payday.
Since Coughlin's departure, remarkably, each coaching hire has been worse than the previous. Just shocking.
who is responsible with this "consensus" concept. What is factual with now a very long timeframe is that the NY Giants are not identifying enough talent in the draft in order to win more games. This has led to trying to overcome it in FA which is not producing results either and not a long term solution.
I think no matter how talented the coaching staff you are not winning championships until better talent is drafted at your positions that influence the game from a physical standpoint. I'd start with addressing that before worrying about who the QB is whether it is Jones or somebody else.
Until the Mara family stops thinking they are “football” people and steps away, there is no hope. John is a really nice man, who has no outside experience running anything, interviewing and selecting management persons. He’s clueless and would have to get “really” lucky to get the right person. I think he really wants to retain Dave, for example, because he doesn’t want the organization to look “unstable”. He’s a reactionary, where optics are what is most important.
"Most Giants fans realized that as soon as Accorsi was picked as consultant, it was merely to rubber stamp Gettleman as the team’s new general manager. Three weeks after Reese was let go, Gettleman was hired before the 2017 regular-season was even over. It’s doubtful that anyone else was seriously considered."
This is an important statement because it really was the start of a run of predictability that is pretty amazing under Gettleman.
For example...
-- It was pretty clear that Eli would be retained
-- It was easy to predict Gettleman would select Barkley
-- It was fairly predictable Hernandez would be drafted
-- It was easy to predict Gettleman would select Jones
-- It was beyond easy to predict Team LW would roll DG for a
new contract
-- It was easy to predict they would sign Golladay
-- It was easy to predict they would sign Bradberry
-- It was easy to predict they would sign Nate Solder to a
ridiculous contract once they lost out Norwell.
Like Terps once said, if there is anyone you want sitting down at a poker table to play against it's Gettleman...
The aging Tom Coughlin was coming off his third consecutive 3rd-place finish in the NFC East, with a number of questionable in-game decisions in 2015. Nevertheless, in hindsight, New York never really recovered from the loss of stability that Coughlin brought to the team. One thing is clear, Mara erroneously came to the conclusion that Coughlin was the primary problem, and not those “buying the groceries” as Bill Parcells so fondly used to call it.
This is the only logical conclusion anyone can draw. Promoting McAdoo and changing basically nothing else screamed that they thought TC was senile and couldn't do it anymore. A two time champ with a program building track record.
That was the major error that has led to the collapse of the franchise. The Giants will likely soon be on attempt number four to find a coach who can build a stable winning program.
this stem from the fear of moving off of Eli? Maybe Mara will look at this a bit more pragmatic now that he does not have to struggle with the inner turmoil of trying to relight the magic with his aging franchise QB?
Is like watching your best friend get his teeth kicked in and you are voiceless and powerless to do anything. Mara is absolutely 100% to blame for thinking he and anyone in his in bred family are "football people". They inherited a business and ran it into the god damn ground.
into the ground. This is the side the fans care about.
We'd have to see the financial reports to know if the business side is run into the ground. This is the side the owners care about. With the revenue sharing, I'm guessing it's really hard to fuck up this side.
Natty Ice (or insert any crappy beer) is a shitty product, but Anheiser-Busch still makes a profit off it, and isn't all that concerned about people laughing at the quality.
Good luck to the Giants in finding a top-quality candidate for the soon-to-be open GM jobs in light of the Mara family history of meddling in the football side of the business. Top candidates will look at the history Epic recites and say "no way unless I get full control of the football operation," which John Mara will quietly decline because, after all, that is not the way the Giants are run.
Not much we can do with Mara though, ultimately he’s going to get another swing at general manager in December/January, just have to hope he finds the right guy.
Also, I did make the thread a few weeks back about the Panthers organization - I like their alignment. But, to be fair - Rhule is only 1 game better than Judge in his record as head coach (8-14).
what joke. hiring McAdon't because the Eagles conned them. JFC. and leaving Reese/Ross in place. That started the half-measures that have destroyed the franchise
when Jawn wanted another Super Bowl run to open his new stadium. That's when he started to meddle (remember the "why isn't Jernal Jernigan playing?")
Nice man, loyal friend, very bad administrator and executive. Every instinct he has is wrong.
They kept an aging team hoping to be able to compete...it backfired spectacularly on Mara. The OL has never recovered because they have not fully committed to rebuilding it
I don't know if I blame Mara for not matching the deal Tepper threw at Rhule. To be fair, that was a lot of coin/years for a guy who never was a HC in the NFL before.
"What the hell is happening to this once-proud franchise?"
Why not? This is NY, the fans want a winner. If that's what the top coaches are getting, pay it. You've been a laughingstock for years on end, but you won't pay when THE GUY you've wanted becomes available.
It's so frustrating. Instead they sign McAdoo, Shurmur & Judge at a fraction of the cost. The coach's salary doesn't count against the cap and Mara is raking it in financially. You want to show you care? Make a power move for the right coach, and show the fans you really want to fix it.
Let's not give 7 years to a good coach, let's just keep embarrassing ourselves instead. It's sickening, and don't think Rhule isn't going to put a beating on him tomorrow.
I don't know if I blame Mara for not matching the deal Tepper threw at Rhule. To be fair, that was a lot of coin/years for a guy who never was a HC in the NFL before.
Mara would have made Garrett the OC with Rhule, too. So no Joe Brady.
An can we fairly evaluate Judge with so many dam injuries this year? Honestly...
I know everyone wants a sweeping change though.
You can't. The criticism of Judge has been over-the-top. I recall listening to the Michael Kay show that he was pissed that Judge spoke of that he wasn't so psyched about the win as much as "the process." Then he and Don went off and said "Just win the next game."
Yeah right- how bad the team was so banged up going against a superior opponent away from home - "Just win the game."
Who in their right mind is picking the Giants to win in that game? So now there is implied dig on Jones if he doesn't help his team beat a superior team?
The team sucks. With that being said, it means the coach's decisions get even more magnified. And that means anything that goes wrong, even if the coach is right, if the team loses the coach is going to get highly criticized. All coaches make mistakes during a game I have to believe whether it be minimal or max. Judge's margin of error is magnified because his team is so shitty.
I do blame him in part with the OL fiasco. For example, you have to trade BJ Hill because your bench sucks. You have no legit LT if Thomas is hurt and it's highly questionable that you even have a legit RT. Next year the OL and pass rush had better be seriously addressed.
It seems like DG (and maybe Judge) had some aversion to actually trying to put together a team that can consistently win the LOS battle (instead of just try to hold it's own) with its offensive unit.
An can we fairly evaluate Judge with so many dam injuries this year? Honestly...
I know everyone wants a sweeping change though.
You can't. The criticism of Judge has been over-the-top. I recall listening to the Michael Kay show that he was pissed that Judge spoke of that he wasn't so psyched about the win as much as "the process." Then he and Don went off and said "Just win the next game."
Yeah right- how bad the team was so banged up going against a superior opponent away from home - "Just win the game."
Who in their right mind is picking the Giants to win in that game? So now there is implied dig on Jones if he doesn't help his team beat a superior team?
The team sucks. With that being said, it means the coach's decisions get even more magnified. And that means anything that goes wrong, even if the coach is right, if the team loses the coach is going to get highly criticized. All coaches make mistakes during a game I have to believe whether it be minimal or max. Judge's margin of error is magnified because his team is so shitty.
I do blame him in part with the OL fiasco. For example, you have to trade BJ Hill because your bench sucks. You have no legit LT if Thomas is hurt and it's highly questionable that you even have a legit RT. Next year the OL and pass rush had better be seriously addressed.
It seems like DG (and maybe Judge) had some aversion to actually trying to put together a team that can consistently win the LOS battle (instead of just try to hold it's own) with its offensive unit.
I meant Judge in this post not Jones. But in other posts --Jones too.
=============
Who in their right mind is picking the Giants to win in that game? So now there is implied dig on Jones if he doesn't help his team beat a superior team?
=============================
It seems like DG (and maybe Judge) had some aversion to actually trying to put together a team that can consistently win the LOS battle (instead of just try to hold it's own) with its offensive unit.
This isn't the first time I've heard this, I really wonder if there is some issues happening behind the curtain with these 2.
I have my doubts Judge was ok with Toney, despite his explosiveness he doesnt seem like a player Judge values as a leader. IMO Judge wants character and leadership from his best players. Maybe the trade down was a reconciliation between the two. I guess we'll find out...
It better not be someone from in house/or with Giants ties. Look what happened when EA got involved in the last GM 'search' process? We ended up with our current buffoon of a GM.
can surprise me with a win. Almost feel like my hopes are downsized now to where I would just like to see them play competitively in the game or have somebody or some unit distinguish themselves.
It’s got to be torn down to absolute core, whatever that is. And be overly critical in determining that grouping versus under, and just start over. Sad.
The common denominator in this soap opera of insanity is Mara. He's been the conductor, and the train has been driven off the tracks by his actions. But the worst part as you note is that this will not change no matter what happens during the off season. He'll still be making the decisions. A change in leadership would require him to stop doing so.
The organization is no better off, and the roster is no better, than it was in December 2017. If anything the organization is in a worse condition.
ughh.....
Agree Uber and I think the great fears are coming to fruition, as this ancient family practice is getting left behind in the dust. But that being said if you look at the browns and the Bengals who have had notoriously bad ownership, seemed to have found some relevance. So we'll see.
Belichick
Goodell
Gettleman
Mara
Like I said,too many cooks.Some aren't even cooks,they just happen to be good with knives.
I remember this line and it seemed arrogant and made no sense at the time.
Rhule had HC experience and had made his mark by turning around two moribund college programs. Exactly what the Giants needed. And Mara balked at giving him a seven-year contract? Really?
Judge had no HC experience, no program building experience, but was a ST coordinator under former Giant Belichick. Yet Mara was apparently perfectly willing to give him a 5-year contract.
So the two-year length difference was really the line in the sand for Mara?
We all know that Mara was too cheap to want to match/exceed Tepper's offer of 8.5 mil per year or whatever it was, and didn't think Rhule deserved that kind of payday.
Since Coughlin's departure, remarkably, each coaching hire has been worse than the previous. Just shocking.
I think no matter how talented the coaching staff you are not winning championships until better talent is drafted at your positions that influence the game from a physical standpoint. I'd start with addressing that before worrying about who the QB is whether it is Jones or somebody else.
“…8th losing season in the last night years,…”
night = nine
This is an important statement because it really was the start of a run of predictability that is pretty amazing under Gettleman.
For example...
-- It was pretty clear that Eli would be retained
-- It was easy to predict Gettleman would select Barkley
-- It was fairly predictable Hernandez would be drafted
-- It was easy to predict Gettleman would select Jones
-- It was beyond easy to predict Team LW would roll DG for a
new contract
-- It was easy to predict they would sign Golladay
-- It was easy to predict they would sign Bradberry
-- It was easy to predict they would sign Nate Solder to a
ridiculous contract once they lost out Norwell.
Like Terps once said, if there is anyone you want sitting down at a poker table to play against it's Gettleman...
This is the only logical conclusion anyone can draw. Promoting McAdoo and changing basically nothing else screamed that they thought TC was senile and couldn't do it anymore. A two time champ with a program building track record.
That was the major error that has led to the collapse of the franchise. The Giants will likely soon be on attempt number four to find a coach who can build a stable winning program.
We'd have to see the financial reports to know if the business side is run into the ground. This is the side the owners care about. With the revenue sharing, I'm guessing it's really hard to fuck up this side.
Natty Ice (or insert any crappy beer) is a shitty product, but Anheiser-Busch still makes a profit off it, and isn't all that concerned about people laughing at the quality.
Pride before and after the fall.
Also, I did make the thread a few weeks back about the Panthers organization - I like their alignment. But, to be fair - Rhule is only 1 game better than Judge in his record as head coach (8-14).
Nice man, loyal friend, very bad administrator and executive. Every instinct he has is wrong.
Nice man, loyal friend, very bad administrator and executive. Every instinct he has is wrong.
They kept an aging team hoping to be able to compete...it backfired spectacularly on Mara. The OL has never recovered because they have not fully committed to rebuilding it
This might be the first weekend in years and years and years that I CAN watch the game, but am choosing to do something else with my time.
"We aren't giving anyone a 7-year deal."
Why not? This is NY, the fans want a winner. If that's what the top coaches are getting, pay it. You've been a laughingstock for years on end, but you won't pay when THE GUY you've wanted becomes available.
It's so frustrating. Instead they sign McAdoo, Shurmur & Judge at a fraction of the cost. The coach's salary doesn't count against the cap and Mara is raking it in financially. You want to show you care? Make a power move for the right coach, and show the fans you really want to fix it.
Let's not give 7 years to a good coach, let's just keep embarrassing ourselves instead. It's sickening, and don't think Rhule isn't going to put a beating on him tomorrow.
Mara would have made Garrett the OC with Rhule, too. So no Joe Brady.
Not saying I'm into it either but Abrams is a big reason of how the giants shed so much salary 4 years ago.
An can we fairly evaluate Judge with so many dam injuries this year? Honestly...
I know everyone wants a sweeping change though.
An can we fairly evaluate Judge with so many dam injuries this year? Honestly...
I know everyone wants a sweeping change though.
You can't. The criticism of Judge has been over-the-top. I recall listening to the Michael Kay show that he was pissed that Judge spoke of that he wasn't so psyched about the win as much as "the process." Then he and Don went off and said "Just win the next game."
Yeah right- how bad the team was so banged up going against a superior opponent away from home - "Just win the game."
Who in their right mind is picking the Giants to win in that game? So now there is implied dig on Jones if he doesn't help his team beat a superior team?
The team sucks. With that being said, it means the coach's decisions get even more magnified. And that means anything that goes wrong, even if the coach is right, if the team loses the coach is going to get highly criticized. All coaches make mistakes during a game I have to believe whether it be minimal or max. Judge's margin of error is magnified because his team is so shitty.
I do blame him in part with the OL fiasco. For example, you have to trade BJ Hill because your bench sucks. You have no legit LT if Thomas is hurt and it's highly questionable that you even have a legit RT. Next year the OL and pass rush had better be seriously addressed.
It seems like DG (and maybe Judge) had some aversion to actually trying to put together a team that can consistently win the LOS battle (instead of just try to hold it's own) with its offensive unit.
Quote:
An can we fairly evaluate Judge with so many dam injuries this year? Honestly...
I know everyone wants a sweeping change though.
You can't. The criticism of Judge has been over-the-top. I recall listening to the Michael Kay show that he was pissed that Judge spoke of that he wasn't so psyched about the win as much as "the process." Then he and Don went off and said "Just win the next game."
Yeah right- how bad the team was so banged up going against a superior opponent away from home - "Just win the game."
Who in their right mind is picking the Giants to win in that game? So now there is implied dig on Jones if he doesn't help his team beat a superior team?
The team sucks. With that being said, it means the coach's decisions get even more magnified. And that means anything that goes wrong, even if the coach is right, if the team loses the coach is going to get highly criticized. All coaches make mistakes during a game I have to believe whether it be minimal or max. Judge's margin of error is magnified because his team is so shitty.
I do blame him in part with the OL fiasco. For example, you have to trade BJ Hill because your bench sucks. You have no legit LT if Thomas is hurt and it's highly questionable that you even have a legit RT. Next year the OL and pass rush had better be seriously addressed.
It seems like DG (and maybe Judge) had some aversion to actually trying to put together a team that can consistently win the LOS battle (instead of just try to hold it's own) with its offensive unit.
I meant Judge in this post not Jones. But in other posts --Jones too.
=============
Who in their right mind is picking the Giants to win in that game? So now there is implied dig on Jones if he doesn't help his team beat a superior team?
=============================
This isn't the first time I've heard this, I really wonder if there is some issues happening behind the curtain with these 2.
I have my doubts Judge was ok with Toney, despite his explosiveness he doesnt seem like a player Judge values as a leader. IMO Judge wants character and leadership from his best players. Maybe the trade down was a reconciliation between the two. I guess we'll find out...
It’s got to be torn down to absolute core, whatever that is. And be overly critical in determining that grouping versus under, and just start over. Sad.