I love Eli, he is one of my favorite Giants of all time. He is a HOF QB, a warrior, and one of the most clutch players in our era (just look at the numbers). But, Eli wasn't a guy (like Rodgers or Mahommes or Brady or his brother) that can win a game on his own. Can he elevate a player? Yes. Can he win a game when he has some pieces because he wills the team and elevates a player? Absolutely. But, let's be fair to his legacy. He was a guy that if you gave him enough, he could win and HELP you win. He was not a guy who could take a very bad team and make it a good one. He could take a mediocre team and make it good, he could take a good team and make it very good.
Turning to Jones, I just don't see why people don't think he could be that player. Will he be as successful as Eli? Probably not. But, he is a player who elevates the players around him. Maybe it is not as pronounced as Eli, but I think to start over to try to get a Rodgers, Mahommes, Brady, etc is really trying to thread the needle. Again, DJ has his warts and he is not elite, but he can be darn good. And, I think we should take that. I get the hesitation with him from his detractors (they have lots of legitimate points), but he might be worth the sixth pick and resigning to a new deal. We have the rest of the year, but I like what I see this year.
I still don't know if DJ's the guy because he is so inconsistent, but he does show signs. I just wish we were healthier. And honestly I really wish we didn't have Garrett as OC.
The Giants offense was never the issue in 2011. It was their defense. When the defense got healthy near the playoff run, the Giants won more consistently. So, yeah, I am not sure you point about 2011. THe one thing I would say about 2011 was the OL was starting to break down, but it was not that bad. He also had Jacobs, Bradshaw, Nicks, Manningham, an in prime Victor Cruz. A guy Eli made on that team was Jake Ballard, Eli really elevated him. Anyway, not sure 2011 is the best example because the real difference in that team came when the defense started getting stops.
I have not discounted 2011, but it seems like you don't remember the season all that well.
Ok, then what happened in 2012, 2013, 2014. What happened in 2009, 2010 (years we did not make the playoffs). 2010 team was a very good team and we did not make the playoffs. Are you counting that?
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See 2011 Giants.
The Giants offense was never the issue in 2011. It was their defense. When the defense got healthy near the playoff run, the Giants won more consistently. So, yeah, I am not sure you point about 2011. THe one thing I would say about 2011 was the OL was starting to break down, but it was not that bad. He also had Jacobs, Bradshaw, Nicks, Manningham, an in prime Victor Cruz. A guy Eli made on that team was Jake Ballard, Eli really elevated him. Anyway, not sure 2011 is the best example because the real difference in that team came when the defense started getting stops.
Can’t you say the same thing about Peyton Manning and the 2006 Colts?
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In comment 15428550 Chris684 said:
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See 2011 Giants.
The Giants offense was never the issue in 2011. It was their defense. When the defense got healthy near the playoff run, the Giants won more consistently. So, yeah, I am not sure you point about 2011. THe one thing I would say about 2011 was the OL was starting to break down, but it was not that bad. He also had Jacobs, Bradshaw, Nicks, Manningham, an in prime Victor Cruz. A guy Eli made on that team was Jake Ballard, Eli really elevated him. Anyway, not sure 2011 is the best example because the real difference in that team came when the defense started getting stops.
Can’t you say the same thing about Peyton Manning and the 2006 Colts?
Only if the Colts didn't make it to the AFC title game like five times.
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Eli accomplished in 2011 make you seem foolish.
I have not discounted 2011, but it seems like you don't remember the season all that well.
To be fair, they had no running game until just past mid-season. Really that team came together after the 1st Dec. game in Dallas. In my opinion Eli was the MVP that year. And that SF game elevates him to elite status in my mind.
But I agree with you points on early Eli. Again the crew that is determined to shit on Jones every thread would be doing the same to the early version of Eli.
Jones in a great athlete. He runs fast he plays fast. That is pretty much where it ends with Jones. He is just not someone who wins a lot of football games with what he can do.
Rodgers took over a championship caliber team with weapons all over
Manning had 2 HoF WRs and Clark wasn’t too shabby
Young/Montana had studs all over
Aikman had the greatest line ever assembled
You can do this for every single qb
Mahomes has the best Receiving tight end and best offensive weapon in the game and a great line. The line broke down and so did their offense.
It’s a team game no QB can make up for a shitty line and WRs who don’t get separation
Comparing Jones to Eli is a Joke at this point. Eli had a very talented OL, receivers and RB who were growing together. Jones has probably had his starters for maybe 2 games total in his career so far. I believe that Jones would have been successful with the roster that Eli had and Eli would have struggled just as much with the roster that Jones has. they are different players
Jones in a great athlete. He runs fast he plays fast. That is pretty much where it ends with Jones. He is just not someone who wins a lot of football games with what he can do.
Hindsight? Shit, using hindsight we could all be billionaires now. Perhaps you don't know what hindsight means?
Jets
Bears
Panthers (they look good huh?)
Texans
And a few other teams have horrific OLs. Even KC OL ain’t that great either.
If you don't think Daniel Jones is one of the best 32 QBs in this league, then I am not sure you can "tell the difference" of anything that goes down on a football field.
Jets
Bears
Panthers (they look good huh?)
Texans
And a few other teams have horrific OLs. Even KC OL ain’t that great either.
Through yesterday's games Daniel Jones has been pressured 6th least in the NFL, for QBs with at least 100 attempts. Only Brady, Stafford, Prescott, Heinecke, and Burrow have faced less pressure than Jones. The theory that the OL is some massive problem is a gigantic myth.
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when they can't tell the difference between a back up QB and Eli Manning.
If you don't think Daniel Jones is one of the best 32 QBs in this league, then I am not sure you can "tell the difference" of anything that goes down on a football field.
I think it's an open question. Yes.
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Need to watch some others…
Jets
Bears
Panthers (they look good huh?)
Texans
And a few other teams have horrific OLs. Even KC OL ain’t that great either.
Through yesterday's games Daniel Jones has been pressured 6th least in the NFL, for QBs with at least 100 attempts. Only Brady, Stafford, Prescott, Heinecke, and Burrow have faced less pressure than Jones. The theory that the OL is some massive problem is a gigantic myth.
my friend, now you are really showing your lack of knowledge. The Giants game plan to get the ball out of his hands quickly because they have no offensive line. How many clean pockets have you seen Jones step into even after going back only 2-3 steps?
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In comment 15428737 GNewGiants said:
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Need to watch some others…
Jets
Bears
Panthers (they look good huh?)
Texans
And a few other teams have horrific OLs. Even KC OL ain’t that great either.
Through yesterday's games Daniel Jones has been pressured 6th least in the NFL, for QBs with at least 100 attempts. Only Brady, Stafford, Prescott, Heinecke, and Burrow have faced less pressure than Jones. The theory that the OL is some massive problem is a gigantic myth.
my friend, now you are really showing your lack of knowledge. The Giants game plan to get the ball out of his hands quickly because they have no offensive line. How many clean pockets have you seen Jones step into even after going back only 2-3 steps?
You should definitely do an analysis of every drop back. I would be open to persuasion. But a knee jerk reaction to a clear stat, carries no weight. Daniel Jones has been the 6th least pressured QB in the league. Sorry that conflicts with your preferred story.
And if they have found a way to reduce pressure, why are his stats still so awful?
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when they can't tell the difference between a back up QB and Eli Manning.
If you don't think Daniel Jones is one of the best 32 QBs in this league, then I am not sure you can "tell the difference" of anything that goes down on a football field.
I think Jones is a top32 QB in the league, but I also think around 10-12 QBs shouldnt be starting either.
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when they can't tell the difference between a back up QB and Eli Manning.
If you don't think Daniel Jones is one of the best 32 QBs in this league, then I am not sure you can "tell the difference" of anything that goes down on a football field.
I think he's one of the best 32, but I think he's a backup on any team with legitimate Super Bowl aspirations.
Make sense?
For reference, Eli never had fewer than 19 in a season (2017) and that was when Beckham Marshall Shepard Engram etc were all either on IR or missed half the season injured.
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Need to watch some others…
Jets
Bears
Panthers (they look good huh?)
Texans
And a few other teams have horrific OLs. Even KC OL ain’t that great either.
Through yesterday's games Daniel Jones has been pressured 6th least in the NFL, for QBs with at least 100 attempts. Only Brady, Stafford, Prescott, Heinecke, and Burrow have faced less pressure than Jones. The theory that the OL is some massive problem is a gigantic myth.
lol GTFO with that shit. Stats tell the whole story? Are you fucking joking? Do you watch the games? Have you watched Nate Solder? Have you seen the running game (lack thereof)??
Oh yes, the disaster that is our OL right now is completely overblown. lol
Geezus.
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In comment 15428737 GNewGiants said:
Quote:
Need to watch some others…
Jets
Bears
Panthers (they look good huh?)
Texans
And a few other teams have horrific OLs. Even KC OL ain’t that great either.
Through yesterday's games Daniel Jones has been pressured 6th least in the NFL, for QBs with at least 100 attempts. Only Brady, Stafford, Prescott, Heinecke, and Burrow have faced less pressure than Jones. The theory that the OL is some massive problem is a gigantic myth.
lol GTFO with that shit. Stats tell the whole story? Are you fucking joking? Do you watch the games? Have you watched Nate Solder? Have you seen the running game (lack thereof)??
Oh yes, the disaster that is our OL right now is completely overblown. lol
Geezus.
Was the OL last year the excuse for why Jones only threw 11 fucking TD passes?
What about the conventional wisdom about the need to move on from statue/washed up Eli to a young/mobile QB because Eli was incapable of playing from "a dirty pocket". So now we have an athletic mobile QB in Jones, and yet he's thrown 16 TD passes in the last 21 games.
For reference, Eli threw 21 TDs/11 INTs for 4300 yards in his last season as a starter (2018).
And now the OL is used to excuse Jones's abject lack of production over the last season and a half.
Laughable.
Was the OL last year the excuse for why Jones only threw 11 fucking TD passes?
What about the conventional wisdom about the need to move on from statue/washed up Eli to a young/mobile QB because Eli was incapable of playing from "a dirty pocket". So now we have an athletic mobile QB in Jones, and yet he's thrown 16 TD passes in the last 21 games.
For reference, Eli threw 21 TDs/11 INTs for 4300 yards in his last season as a starter (2018).
And now the OL is used to excuse Jones's abject lack of production over the last season and a half.
Laughable.
I know ! Equally weird BBI logic is the need to move on from ELI because of all the losing. When Jones loses a shit ton of games he is someone who plays hard ; is easy to root for ; and it's everyone else's fault but his. Go figure!
I think the chances he is elite are low and diminishing rapidly. The other categories are still in play, perhaps. The lower end of the top-15 is his ultimate ceiling, I believe. Not good enough, long term.
People are talking about this "new type" of QB. Interesting that arguably the greatest HC of all time seems committed to pretty much a statue in the pocket.
People are talking about this "new type" of QB. Interesting that arguably the greatest HC of all time seems committed to pretty much a statue in the pocket.
he's not worth $35-40M/yr. If they invest that much in this player, especially now that teams are shying away from overpaying middling QBs, this team deserves all the losing they will invite.
People are talking about this "new type" of QB. Interesting that arguably the greatest HC of all time seems committed to pretty much a statue in the pocket.
I think you are asking this the wrong way around.
The OP acknowledges that DJ isn't Mahomes or prime-Rodgers, etc. The market doesn't differentiate (from a salary perspective) on 'good' QBs and the 'best' QBs. At least not in a meaningful way; that's why Kirk Cousins makes what he makes and will continue to do so.
The question is really (as it was with Eli, who wasn't prime Peyton or prime Brady either) is: can the Giants do better?
Honestly, look around. Great QBs don't make it to UFA unless they are injured (Brees) or outside their prime (P.Manning/Brady); and even then it's a 'once in a decade' sort of thing and they usually sign with teams they view as a contender (which the NY Giants are not).
The Giants won't have the 1st overall pick in the draft and even if they did, there isn't a Lawrence/P.Manning/Luck sort of prospect coming. So at best the Giants are taking another QB in the top ten and hoping to get someone better than DJ... and how confident are you that they will? (I am not)
Was the OL last year the excuse for why Jones only threw 11 fucking TD passes?
What about the conventional wisdom about the need to move on from statue/washed up Eli to a young/mobile QB because Eli was incapable of playing from "a dirty pocket". So now we have an athletic mobile QB in Jones, and yet he's thrown 16 TD passes in the last 21 games.
For reference, Eli threw 21 TDs/11 INTs for 4300 yards in his last season as a starter (2018).
And now the OL is used to excuse Jones's abject lack of production over the last season and a half.
Laughable.
Nobody I have see says it's the only reason. But if you don't think it's a pretty big issue, I just don't know what to say... lol. Except that that would be a pretty baffling perspective.
You know we changed coaches and coordinators with a complete scheme change in his second year.... right? You don't think that plus a terrible OL should be factored into perception about him? Really?
Also he had other issues as a rookie but he sure didn't seem to have any problems throwing TDs that year.
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That is what these QB's are getting on second contract. When I look at it from that perspective I bring him back next year and don't commit to the 5th year. I also do not think it is going to be very easy finding a QB in the next two drafts who is a clear upgrade.
People are talking about this "new type" of QB. Interesting that arguably the greatest HC of all time seems committed to pretty much a statue in the pocket.
I think you are asking this the wrong way around.
The OP acknowledges that DJ isn't Mahomes or prime-Rodgers, etc. The market doesn't differentiate (from a salary perspective) on 'good' QBs and the 'best' QBs. At least not in a meaningful way; that's why Kirk Cousins makes what he makes and will continue to do so.
The question is really (as it was with Eli, who wasn't prime Peyton or prime Brady either) is: can the Giants do better?
Honestly, look around. Great QBs don't make it to UFA unless they are injured (Brees) or outside their prime (P.Manning/Brady); and even then it's a 'once in a decade' sort of thing and they usually sign with teams they view as a contender (which the NY Giants are not).
The Giants won't have the 1st overall pick in the draft and even if they did, there isn't a Lawrence/P.Manning/Luck sort of prospect coming. So at best the Giants are taking another QB in the top ten and hoping to get someone better than DJ... and how confident are you that they will? (I am not)
Exactly, getting a new QB requires successfully threading the needle from a QB that is probably anywhere (we are still trying to figure this out) from 6-15 (at his best) vs trying to get a guy from 1-4 or 5. How hard is it to get that guy and you get into trouble by giving up what you have. You read this website and 1) you think Eli was Rodgers, Brady, Mahomes, or his brother and 2) you think it is really easy to get that type of player.
The question with a QB is can I win with him (salary--rookie or second contract and all considerations). If the answer is yes, you stay with him.
People are talking about this "new type" of QB. Interesting that arguably the greatest HC of all time seems committed to pretty much a statue in the pocket.
I'm not sold on Jones as the answer either, but what are your options if you're not bringing him back for his 5th year? $20M is a significant cap hit, but it's only one year. Unless they're drafting a QB this year, I think they will have to exercise his option.
17 games seasons with 3/4 postseason games is a lot. Quality depth is paramount and these QB's on huge contracts hurt with that as well as having to let go some good talent. With very good drafting (and consistent) it makes it more manageable but that is a challenge in itself.
So the questions I ask is how much does your QB impact the team's performance?
I have not ruled out Jones but I think he needs to show more on a consistent basis. Yesterday I felt he was a big reason for the win. He needs to be that more often.
One thing about the playoffs and playing against good defenses has showed me. Your QB has to make some elite intermediate on a line from the pocket and I worry about Jones ability in this area.
Still a lot of season to debate but appreciate the feedback given and I certainly see the counter points.
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Was the OL last year the excuse for why Jones only threw 11 fucking TD passes?
What about the conventional wisdom about the need to move on from statue/washed up Eli to a young/mobile QB because Eli was incapable of playing from "a dirty pocket". So now we have an athletic mobile QB in Jones, and yet he's thrown 16 TD passes in the last 21 games.
For reference, Eli threw 21 TDs/11 INTs for 4300 yards in his last season as a starter (2018).
And now the OL is used to excuse Jones's abject lack of production over the last season and a half.
Laughable.
Nobody I have see says it's the only reason. But if you don't think it's a pretty big issue, I just don't know what to say... lol. Except that that would be a pretty baffling perspective.
You know we changed coaches and coordinators with a complete scheme change in his second year.... right? You don't think that plus a terrible OL should be factored into perception about him? Really?
Also he had other issues as a rookie but he sure didn't seem to have any problems throwing TDs that year.
so your claim is that the problem with jones's regression from his rookie year to his second year, and which has continued into his third year, is the fault of the head coach and offensive coordinator?
i'm not necessarily against this perspective, but the fact of the matter is that jones is one of if not the worst red zone qbs in the NFL (and that actually goes back to his rookie year)
whether you blame the coaching, the other players on offense, injuries, whatever. eli was not afforded these excuses when people said he was washed, despite him being a season and a half removed from a very good 2016 season and where he was throwing lazers all over lambeau in that 2017 playoff game. why are expectations for jones revised downward and "but the other players, but the coaches" excuses trotted out.
eli was not afforded the benefit of any doubt and he was a 2x SB champion 2 years removed from a playoff season where he threw 26 TDs and for over 4000 yards.
the question for me is, if as you claim, judge and garrett are the problem, and the other players around him are/were terrible acquisitions by the front office, what makes you so sure that the front office, which has gotten it wrong time and time again over the last five years, boomed it out of the park with the daniel jones selection?
i guess i don't share that confidence. jones has ten wins in 2.5 seasons. five of those came his rookie season.
i'm not saying he is a terrible quarterback. he's clearly better than sam darnold. i'd say he's better than baker mayfield. but he's a bottom 15 qb in the league right now.
i still don't think he's beat a team with a winning record.
Has that ever worked incidentally? Tim Tebow I guess?
How can anyone write this with a straight face? Jones is tied with Davis Mills for 29th in the league with 5 TD passes YTD. And we're still averaging < 20 PPG. The bottom third of the league.
There is no elevating going on here. If you want to see what that looks like, check out the QB in Baltimore. Or the QB in Las Vegas.
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Was the OL last year the excuse for why Jones only threw 11 fucking TD passes?
What about the conventional wisdom about the need to move on from statue/washed up Eli to a young/mobile QB because Eli was incapable of playing from "a dirty pocket". So now we have an athletic mobile QB in Jones, and yet he's thrown 16 TD passes in the last 21 games.
For reference, Eli threw 21 TDs/11 INTs for 4300 yards in his last season as a starter (2018).
And now the OL is used to excuse Jones's abject lack of production over the last season and a half.
Laughable.
Nobody I have see says it's the only reason. But if you don't think it's a pretty big issue, I just don't know what to say... lol. Except that that would be a pretty baffling perspective.
You know we changed coaches and coordinators with a complete scheme change in his second year.... right? You don't think that plus a terrible OL should be factored into perception about him? Really?
Also he had other issues as a rookie but he sure didn't seem to have any problems throwing TDs that year.
Do you think that those "other issues" that DJ had as a rookie might actually be the cause of his lack of TDs since?
In other words, in an effort to clean up the turnovers (either by his own style of play or the scheme the new staff put in place), has some of DJ's playmaking suffered?
That's the troubling part, IMO: it's hard to win with a QB that gives the ball away frequently, but it's also hard to win if the response is to get so conservative about turnovers that you don't score any points.
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"But, he (Jones ) is a player who elevates the players around him..."
How can anyone write this with a straight face? Jones is tied with Davis Mills for 29th in the league with 5 TD passes YTD. And we're still averaging < 20 PPG. The bottom third of the league.
There is no elevating going on here. If you want to see what that looks like, check out the QB in Baltimore. Or the QB in Las Vegas.
Did you watch the game yesterday, he was playing with a bunch of back ups and worse. I would say he elevated them. I do agree with Gatorade Dunk in that you have to definitely balance the lack of production with the conservative calling and how that has cut down the turnover but also the production. Could it also be Garrett runs a different type of offense than Shurmur though as well?
i'm not saying he is a terrible quarterback. he's clearly better than sam darnold. i'd say he's better than baker mayfield. but he's a bottom 15 qb in the league right now.
Baker Mayfield is better than Jones right now. 3,700 yards and 27 TD's in only 13 starts as a rookie for a team that had been 0-16 the year prior. 3,800 and 22 year 2, and 3,500 and 26 last year, and Cleveland is debating whether to sign him to a big deal.
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Need to watch some others…
Jets
Bears
Panthers (they look good huh?)
Texans
And a few other teams have horrific OLs. Even KC OL ain’t that great either.
Through yesterday's games Daniel Jones has been pressured 6th least in the NFL, for QBs with at least 100 attempts. Only Brady, Stafford, Prescott, Heinecke, and Burrow have faced less pressure than Jones. The theory that the OL is some massive problem is a gigantic myth.
What is Jones’ average release time compared to the rest of the league, kind of an important ingredient you left out of the mix. I know yesterday it was 2.6 something, I believe lowest in League.
You expose yourself as someone who twists things to help create your narrative when you refer to the Offensive line woes as. Myth.
I mean really, if you believe this offensive line is not a problem, I can only state it leaves me incredulous.
Jets
Bears
Panthers (they look good huh?)
Texans
And a few other teams have horrific OLs. Even KC OL ain’t that great either.
Without Andrew Thomas it definitely is one of the worst. Rob Sale is an amazing coach though, to be able to make chicken salad out of the chicken feathers he was given.