Today on WFAN with “Mark and Maggie” Banks said you can win a championship with DJ. Now before everyone who hates the Jones pick,remember to blame Gettleman for that. Banks went on to say that biggest change with Jones is his command of the offense. He has the tools necessary to be very effective at this level and he wants to win. He called Jones the best player on the team. I have had a wait and see attitude and always felt Jones was in a tough situation to make a definitive evaluation. I know there are some that don’t like the pick but there is a consensus building in the media that Jones is the Guy. That is important in NYC.
A new GM and/or coach puts a wrinkle on things, but do you want to bring in a journeyman or roll the dice on the next rookie class?
Of course we have several good players out, but for yesterday's purposes that's what I saw.
My hope is that we get injured talent comes back shortly and the line solidifies a little. I think it will be apparent if we are lucky enough for the 1st 2 to occur.
Of course we have several good players out, but for yesterday's purposes that's what I saw.
The real question I have is whether the offensive playcalling lacks imagination because of Jason Garrett or because Daniel Jones becomes more turnover prone if they added some of the more creative playcalling you see from people like McVay and Kingsbury. At his current level I see a QB who can lead a team to the playoffs (1) if his team stays relatively helathy and (2) his teammates can keep him out of 3rd and very long because when you get beyond about 3rd and 8 teams don't have to respect as much the possibility that he can run for a first down if forced out of the pocket. The problem is the Giants are neither right now and not sure they will be for the forseeable future.
When you take the emotion out of it and really look at his playing conditions, it's remarkable how volatile things have been around him.
Every freaking week, it's a new cast of players around him. New guys on the OL. Musical chairs at RB, WR and TE. Jeckyl and Hyde gameplans from Garrett that get criticized by EVERYONE around the league associated with the Giants or not. And ridiculous penalties taking many of his positive plays away.
Just once, I'd like to see him with some modicum of stability and talent around him. That was the goal coming in, and unfortunately, it hasn't happened. But he is still showing something and is tough as nails. One of my favorite plays of his was an incompletion. Peart had just limped off the field, Solder goes to LT and Cunningham in at RT. Next snap, Jones hangs in the pocket and tries to hit a deep throw when he knew he was gonna take a shot.
That's the kind of play that wins me over. Dude is tough as nails and has not given up on the season whatsoever.
Old school pocket passer that can run.
Or some of us don't live our lives believing everything Carl Banks says to be the undisputed truth.
what we need to see from jones is consistency, and an ability to reliably throw TDs in the red zone.
he has 5 TD passes through seven games this season and is on pace to produce his abysmal TD total from 2020. this needs to change.
The Other Half
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The Anti Jones cabal is probably doing a Zoom meeting right now figuring how to properly address this outrage. They will let their outrage be felt!
Or some of us don't live our lives believing everything Carl Banks says to be the undisputed truth.
But you sure do let him piss you off!
Only player on offense left standing.
what we need to see from jones is consistency, and an ability to reliably throw TDs in the red zone.
he has 5 TD passes through seven games this season and is on pace to produce his abysmal TD total from 2020. this needs to change.
Garrett is the anti-Andy Reid in the red zone. As soon as they get inside the 20 he tries to run it in at all costs. If Booker is running for a 19 yard TD because it is looking like Jones will pass the ball that is partly on the work of Jones yet he gets nothing in the stats. As long as Garrett is the OC I don't think even Aaron Rodgers would have gaudy TD statistics.
what we need to see from jones is consistency, and an ability to reliably throw TDs in the red zone.
he has 5 TD passes through seven games this season and is on pace to produce his abysmal TD total from 2020. this needs to change.
16 TDs in 21 games with unquestionably the worst set of skill players in the NFL (Golden Tate the #1 WR?), unquestionably one of the worst OLines and a scheme that's gotten Garrett a ton of criticism from all corners of the NFL (and demoted from playcalling in his last job).
16 TDs in 21 is a low number, but is it really a surprise? That's about the talent he's been given around him. It's been dysfunctional and a young QB isn't going to change that.
Marino doesn't have a ring. Dilfer does. The "you can winn a championship with him" talk is just filling airtime.
lol now that was funny
I think what Simms and Banks are saying is that its coming. I agree but also won't declare victory over the doubters just yet.
And if we stink with him DL, Andrew Thomas, and even barkley on rookie contracts - they will need to get paid too (well maybe not SB). The point is investing major money into a QB of a losing franchise means you cannot pay for guys that you need to surround him in order to win.
If you cant win with him now, do you really expect to win with him making nearly 5-6x more?
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In comment 15429010 Walker Gillette said:
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The Anti Jones cabal is probably doing a Zoom meeting right now figuring how to properly address this outrage. They will let their outrage be felt!
Or some of us don't live our lives believing everything Carl Banks says to be the undisputed truth.
But you sure do let him piss you off!
It's odd that you jumped to that conclusion based upon an extremely unemotional response, but whatever you need to tell yourself I guess.
Where is this unicorn of a QB winning Super Bowls without talent around him?
OK.
How loyal are these two to the blue?
Have you ever heard them disparage a Giants QB?
I think Carl and Phil could be right.
I also think they could be wrong.
He appears to have improved ball security and interceptions.
Great job.
For 3 straight years Daniel is absolutely the very bottom of the NFL in the Red Zone as a QB.
Everything is faster.
Figure that out and we might have something.
I am rooting for him.
Touchdowns, not field goals.
Don't like the play that is called.
Fucking audible into the correct one.
Be accountable.
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In comment 15429021 rsjem1979 said:
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In comment 15429010 Walker Gillette said:
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The Anti Jones cabal is probably doing a Zoom meeting right now figuring how to properly address this outrage. They will let their outrage be felt!
Or some of us don't live our lives believing everything Carl Banks says to be the undisputed truth.
But you sure do let him piss you off!
It's odd that you jumped to that conclusion based upon an extremely unemotional response, but whatever you need to tell yourself I guess.
That's unemotional? You come back with that response which is dripping with anger. This is a Giants board and a former Giant who a lot of people respect said some positive about the young ab and you come back with that. maybe it's whatever you need to tell yourself!
Marino doesn't have a ring. Dilfer does. The "you can winn a championship with him" talk is just filling airtime.
I think what Simms and Banks are saying is that its coming. I agree but also won't declare victory over the doubters just yet.
OK.
How loyal are these two to the blue?
Have you ever heard them disparage a Giants QB?
I think Carl and Phil could be right.
I also think they could be wrong.
He appears to have improved ball security and interceptions.
Great job.
bolded textFor 3 straight years Daniel is absolutely the very bottom of the NFL in the Red Zone as a QB.bolded text
Be accountable.
Is this correct? Even in 2019?
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Said the same thing.
OK.
How loyal are these two to the blue?
Have you ever heard them disparage a Giants QB?
I think Carl and Phil could be right.
I also think they could be wrong.
He appears to have improved ball security and interceptions.
Great job.
bolded textFor 3 straight years Daniel is absolutely the very bottom of the NFL in the Red Zone as a QB.bolded text
Be accountable.
Is this correct? Even in 2019?
2109 QB Red Zone - ( New Window )
That's unemotional? You come back with that response which is dripping with anger. This is a Giants board and a former Giant who a lot of people respect said some positive about the young ab and you come back with that. maybe it's whatever you need to tell yourself!
Ok.
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That's unemotional? You come back with that response which is dripping with anger. This is a Giants board and a former Giant who a lot of people respect said some positive about the young ab and you come back with that. maybe it's whatever you need to tell yourself!
Ok.
+1!
When was the last time they said anything negative about any player -- let alone a Giant? Have they ever said "you can't win with this guy, I'd cut him and take the cap hit."Even if they did it, does not mean they guaranteed to be 100% right.
With the draft capital for next year, not having to take a QB would be an opportuinty to get better much faster. Personally my totally meaningless eyes say not yet.
IMO there's more development to go for him to be anywhere near what Banks said. He still locks in on one reciever and still doesn't trust his eyes after the ball is snapped. He has to show he can beat the really good defenses more consistently if he's going to be top 10. He's still playing behind an horrible line and the ammount of hits he taking in the pocket and when he runs are not long term sustainable.
Wow it took Garrett a year and a half to figure out that Jones is good on a rollout. Why the fuck haven't they been going to that play on a consistent basis all season?
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In comment 15429071 Thegratefulhead said:
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Is this correct? Even in 2019?
2109 QB Red Zone - ( New Window )
Fair enough...but those stats don't seem so bad. Looking at other players who had a similar amount of attempts in the red zone like Darnold and Allen, I'd say Jones was better....stat-wise..
Wow it took Garrett a year and a half to figure out that Jones is good on a rollout. Why the fuck haven't they been going to that play on a consistent basis all season?
Because he hasn't been that good throwing while running.
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he played well enough to win yesterday, and his one-handed catch was a lot of fun to watch. but this is the same guy who was 2-8 vs dallas before he knocked himself out of the game making a dumb decision. and that horrific game was after a nice performance vs. NO.
what we need to see from jones is consistency, and an ability to reliably throw TDs in the red zone.
he has 5 TD passes through seven games this season and is on pace to produce his abysmal TD total from 2020. this needs to change.
16 TDs in 21 games with unquestionably the worst set of skill players in the NFL (Golden Tate the #1 WR?), unquestionably one of the worst OLines and a scheme that's gotten Garrett a ton of criticism from all corners of the NFL (and demoted from playcalling in his last job).
16 TDs in 21 is a low number, but is it really a surprise? That's about the talent he's been given around him. It's been dysfunctional and a young QB isn't going to change that.
Tua has 7 this year despite missing time and throwing to basically Gesicki and a rookie. It’s not like Jones was throwing a bunch of TDS the games everyone played in this year.
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The Anti Jones cabal is probably doing a Zoom meeting right now figuring how to properly address this outrage. They will let their outrage be felt!
Or some of us don't live our lives believing everything Carl Banks says to be the undisputed truth.
You tell him rs. Why the hell would we listen to Carl Banks or Phil Simms when we have our own quarterback gurus right here on Bbi who have made it clear, Jones stinks.
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The stats show a big dropoff when Shurmer left. Yes some differences in personnel year to year but not that many.
Wow it took Garrett a year and a half to figure out that Jones is good on a rollout. Why the fuck haven't they been going to that play on a consistent basis all season?
Because he hasn't been that good throwing while running.
Well he looked decent yesterday.
Excited to see what the kid has down the stretch this year.
Wow it took Garrett a year and a half to figure out that Jones is good on a rollout. Why the fuck haven't they been going to that play on a consistent basis all season?
Yea they also showed some drop off in key areas Jones was top 5 in like fumbling. I don't want to look up his Ints but 39 Turnovers total is a lot of freaking turnovers. That went down as well. Then again at this point you are losing just the same so just turn him loose, let him get benched for horrible play, and bring in Glennon I guess?
It does not do DJ a disservice to state that he has not earned the "franchise" QB status.
At some point we as fans need to stop asking on how the front office and coaching staff can surround Jones with better talent and better offensive scheme to make him look good, and start asking how can DJ make the rest of the team better? There a lot of good QBs that play with mediocre OL and no-name receivers who manage to put up big games in the NFL b/c the league is so pass happy. It would be great to see DJ get to a point by the end of the season where being "competent" isn't the bar for whether he is a franchise QB.
I think we have to give an incoming GM a pass on Jones for two years (if there are no better alternatives in the draft) while he builds out the rest of the roster. Also have to give him the option dump Judge and pick his own guy.
If we make the GM job conditional on keeping Jones and Judge then we might as well just give the job to Kevin Abrams and spare us from getting our hopes up, because at that point we'll have to give the job to the front office equivalent of a special teams coach who interviews well.
Judge also seems to think Engram has it, so proceed with caution.
on a somewhat separate note, is interesting that for all the debate we have about JOnes's rookie season it was light years better than just about anything we have seen from this years rookie QB class.
It does not do DJ a disservice to state that he has not earned the "franchise" QB status.
At some point we as fans need to stop asking on how the front office and coaching staff can surround Jones with better talent and better offensive scheme to make him look good, and start asking how can DJ make the rest of the team better? There a lot of good QBs that play with mediocre OL and no-name receivers who manage to put up big games in the NFL b/c the league is so pass happy. It would be great to see DJ get to a point by the end of the season where being "competent" isn't the bar for whether he is a franchise QB.
Define mediocre. Our Oline is the worst in the NFL. I don't even think it's an argument.
Red zone, non-red zone, 1-yard passes, 99-yard designed runs, RPOs...don't care how it happens.
Using the phrase "hung 23 points on" sounds a bit ridiculous for a fairly pedestrian level of scoring. Even moreso when you consider the the last 7 points were due to Carolina turning the ball over on downs at the 19-yard line.
Be happy the win but keep it real...
It does not matter who says what. Media people want headlines, they are also employed by someone.
I have been on the Jones bandwagon and just fell off so please spare me the excuses, I have been making them myself. He might still turn out to be good, but I am now to the point that he must PROVE IT!
The only thing I give a shit about, is if a J0nes led offense scores touchdowns. If the OL and receivers were good enough to get you into the Red Zone, they are good enough to score TD s with. Get your team to the line quickly, assess the defense, audible if you need, then, execute. IDGAF about any excuses.
Results please.
Tired of the gibber jabber.
Get the funny shaped brown leather ball across the threshold.
Do it on average, at least twice a game.
I don’t want to hear any more Jones chirping until he can do that.
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If you have an incredibly talented roster with a dominant defense, even Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl.
Where is this unicorn of a QB winning Super Bowls without talent around him?
Great question. I haven't seen it answered as of yet. If there are such QBs, it's very, very few and I think a lot of BBI will only be happy once they find him.
Gotta feeeeeeeed BBI.
I like Jones the person and his heart as a player, and his running ability is a huge positive in how it affects the defense. I just feel like if there's an upgrade staring the franchise in the face, they have to pull the trigger as soon as it's available. I don't feel like he's great enough to pass up an opportunity if it's there.
Outside of a unpredictable trade, I really don't see a way to upgrade for 2022.
But you don't, so seems more like feeding you...
Last time I saw the offense starting to click like this was N.O. Get back some of Shep, Golladay, Toney and Barkley, and combine them with a similar offensive game plan, and I'd have to think you're going to worry some opposing DC's.
I think he would be fine if you had a decent line. And yes, he made everyone on offense better yesterday.
Jones is 21st in QBR, 22 in Y/A, 29th in TD passes, 27th in QB rate, 18th in first downs, 21st in first down percentage.
And for those who claim he is under constant pressure, he's tied for 15th in number of sacks.
His numbers yesterday were a thoroughly pedestrian 22-33 203 yards and a td- virtually the same numbers as Case Keenum against the Broncos.
That is not a "franchise qb". Yes, the Giants won yesterday which is enjoyable, but let's not fool ourselves and continue to fall in love with mediocre players to the extent that we do not demand better. I did enough of that in the 70's, thank you.
there's still plenty of season left that could change the calculus but if it continues on it's current trajectory they should continue building up the lines and give him 1 more year. at least 1 of the first round picks should be on the OL and with any luck the 2 guys who got hurt for the season this year will come back.
maybe, just maybe, they can upgrade the OC too.
there's still plenty of season left that could change the calculus but if it continues on it's current trajectory they should continue building up the lines and give him 1 more year. at least 1 of the first round picks should be on the OL and with any luck the 2 guys who got hurt for the season this year will come back.
maybe, just maybe, they can upgrade the OC too.
Can't imagine, huh? His numbers continue to be poor and we are 2-5. But you can't even fathom it.
It is? Caring what the media thinks should actually be a variable in the decision whether to move forward with Jones?
JFC.
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he continues to show improvement in meaningful ways despite brutal circumstances around him and he will be the 2nd cheapest option only to drafting a non top 10 rookie.
there's still plenty of season left that could change the calculus but if it continues on it's current trajectory they should continue building up the lines and give him 1 more year. at least 1 of the first round picks should be on the OL and with any luck the 2 guys who got hurt for the season this year will come back.
maybe, just maybe, they can upgrade the OC too.
Can't imagine, huh? His numbers continue to be poor and we are 2-5. But you can't even fathom it.
Cool who you getting that's better?
Jones is 21st in QBR, 22 in Y/A, 29th in TD passes, 27th in QB rate, 18th in first downs, 21st in first down percentage.
And for those who claim he is under constant pressure, he's tied for 15th in number of sacks.
His numbers yesterday were a thoroughly pedestrian 22-33 203 yards and a td- virtually the same numbers as Case Keenum against the Broncos.
That is not a "franchise qb". Yes, the Giants won yesterday which is enjoyable, but let's not fool ourselves and continue to fall in love with mediocre players to the extent that we do not demand better. I did enough of that in the 70's, thank you.
I watched the game, I saw a quarterback who was the best player on the field lift his team to victory
Cherry picked statistics don’t change what we saw.
But the debate is over, really no need to engage the critics anymore, other than for the entertainment of it. He will be the quarterback next year and probably well beyond that as well.
Lots of exciting options probably available after the season - Teddy Bridgewater, Nick Muellens, Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, Dwayne Haskins, Drew Lock, Tua, Jimmy G, Goff, Fitzmagic. Might even be able to get ryan finley out of his contract with meineke car care. you won't have to pay a lot but you will get a lot.
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nor in the win column or the scoring column.
Jones is 21st in QBR, 22 in Y/A, 29th in TD passes, 27th in QB rate, 18th in first downs, 21st in first down percentage.
And for those who claim he is under constant pressure, he's tied for 15th in number of sacks.
His numbers yesterday were a thoroughly pedestrian 22-33 203 yards and a td- virtually the same numbers as Case Keenum against the Broncos.
That is not a "franchise qb". Yes, the Giants won yesterday which is enjoyable, but let's not fool ourselves and continue to fall in love with mediocre players to the extent that we do not demand better. I did enough of that in the 70's, thank you.
I watched the game, I saw a quarterback who was the best player on the field lift his team to victory
Cherry picked statistics don’t change what we saw.
But the debate is over, really no need to engage the critics anymore, other than for the entertainment of it. He will be the quarterback next year and probably well beyond that as well.
Those aren't cherry picked stats. Those are the most fundamental stats by which we judge QB performance.
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what’s the solution? He’s traded for whatever we get and we have a clean slate heading into the 2022 offseason - now what?
Lots of exciting options probably available after the season - Teddy Bridgewater, Nick Muellens, Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, Dwayne Haskins, Drew Lock, Tua, Jimmy G, Goff, Fitzmagic. Might even be able to get ryan finley out of his contract with meineke car care. you won't have to pay a lot but you will get a lot.
Tua threw almost as many TDs yesterday as Jones threw in seven games.
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nor in the win column or the scoring column.
Jones is 21st in QBR, 22 in Y/A, 29th in TD passes, 27th in QB rate, 18th in first downs, 21st in first down percentage.
And for those who claim he is under constant pressure, he's tied for 15th in number of sacks.
His numbers yesterday were a thoroughly pedestrian 22-33 203 yards and a td- virtually the same numbers as Case Keenum against the Broncos.
That is not a "franchise qb". Yes, the Giants won yesterday which is enjoyable, but let's not fool ourselves and continue to fall in love with mediocre players to the extent that we do not demand better. I did enough of that in the 70's, thank you.
I watched the game, I saw a quarterback who was the best player on the field lift his team to victory
Cherry picked statistics don’t change what we saw.
But the debate is over, really no need to engage the critics anymore, other than for the entertainment of it. He will be the quarterback next year and probably well beyond that as well.
For me, wins that matter and TDs in the red zone will convince me. Show me those quick decisions into tight windows inside the twenty. A couple of pretty fade routes, hit some guys crossing along the end line. That kind of thing. You know, what the franchise guys do with some consistency. It is what earns them the label.
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what’s the solution? He’s traded for whatever we get and we have a clean slate heading into the 2022 offseason - now what?
Lots of exciting options probably available after the season - Teddy Bridgewater, Nick Muellens, Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, Dwayne Haskins, Drew Lock, Tua, Jimmy G, Goff, Fitzmagic. Might even be able to get ryan finley out of his contract with meineke car care. you won't have to pay a lot but you will get a lot.
Well, there is a pretty good chance Wilson and Carr could be available. And, IMV, there are some very interesting QB prospects in this upcoming draft - Pickett, Willis, Corral.
All three are having exciting '21 seasons.
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In comment 15429245 UConn4523 said:
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what’s the solution? He’s traded for whatever we get and we have a clean slate heading into the 2022 offseason - now what?
Lots of exciting options probably available after the season - Teddy Bridgewater, Nick Muellens, Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, Dwayne Haskins, Drew Lock, Tua, Jimmy G, Goff, Fitzmagic. Might even be able to get ryan finley out of his contract with meineke car care. you won't have to pay a lot but you will get a lot.
Tua threw almost as many TDs yesterday as Jones threw in seven games.
How'd his team do in that game? Or last week vs. Jax? He have any key turnovers in either?
You either draft a quarterback (don't force it...if a guy is available where it makes sense to draft him, draft him) or sign one of the free agents that float around the league (Taylor, Bridgewater, etc.) as a placeholder.
The Giants are on the verge of a complete teardown and rebuild. The name of the game now is to use this season and next to accumulate as many draft picks and accelerate as many cap hits as possible. The 2022 team isn't going to be any good either.
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In comment 15429219 HomerJones45 said:
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nor in the win column or the scoring column.
Jones is 21st in QBR, 22 in Y/A, 29th in TD passes, 27th in QB rate, 18th in first downs, 21st in first down percentage.
And for those who claim he is under constant pressure, he's tied for 15th in number of sacks.
His numbers yesterday were a thoroughly pedestrian 22-33 203 yards and a td- virtually the same numbers as Case Keenum against the Broncos.
That is not a "franchise qb". Yes, the Giants won yesterday which is enjoyable, but let's not fool ourselves and continue to fall in love with mediocre players to the extent that we do not demand better. I did enough of that in the 70's, thank you.
I watched the game, I saw a quarterback who was the best player on the field lift his team to victory
Cherry picked statistics don’t change what we saw.
But the debate is over, really no need to engage the critics anymore, other than for the entertainment of it. He will be the quarterback next year and probably well beyond that as well.
Cherry picked stats...lol The man's combined W/L record in college and the NFL is abysmal. All of the reasoning to say the debate is over is subjective. He was not good in the Red Zone yesterday. How bout' he wins a couple games that matter before we close the book on the debate? I am not saying he isn't the guy, I just stepped off the bandwagon TBH. I had to step off because of the overwhelming amount of objective evidence.
For me, wins that matter and TDs in the red zone will convince me. Show me those quick decisions into tight windows inside the twenty. A couple of pretty fade routes, hit some guys crossing along the end line. That kind of thing. You know, what the franchise guys do with some consistency. It is what earns them the label.
No you're wrong, according to joeinpa, who I think might be Daniel Jones' publicist, being the best player on a field with Giants and Panthers, is all that matters. And Panthers without CMC I might add.
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In comment 15429257 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 15429245 UConn4523 said:
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what’s the solution? He’s traded for whatever we get and we have a clean slate heading into the 2022 offseason - now what?
Lots of exciting options probably available after the season - Teddy Bridgewater, Nick Muellens, Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, Dwayne Haskins, Drew Lock, Tua, Jimmy G, Goff, Fitzmagic. Might even be able to get ryan finley out of his contract with meineke car care. you won't have to pay a lot but you will get a lot.
Tua threw almost as many TDs yesterday as Jones threw in seven games.
How'd his team do in that game? Or last week vs. Jax? He have any key turnovers in either?
Yes let's compare Tua last week vs Jones. That should be a short comparison.
This year we all said he needed to make a jump, and we’ll see where he comes out at the end when the body of work is all in.
This year we all said he needed to make a jump, and we’ll see where he comes out at the end when the body of work is all in.
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what’s the solution? He’s traded for whatever we get and we have a clean slate heading into the 2022 offseason - now what?
Lots of exciting options probably available after the season - Teddy Bridgewater, Nick Muellens, Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, Dwayne Haskins, Drew Lock, Tua, Jimmy G, Goff, Fitzmagic. Might even be able to get ryan finley out of his contract with meineke car care. you won't have to pay a lot but you will get a lot.
Can always just leave Jones in the saddle and get better elsewhere with $s/picks (hopefully). Punt the QB decision another year.
Not helpful after good QBs have been available for last several years and we haven't taken advantage sitting at the top of those drafts. Blame your moron GM who has been at the helm.
Maybe another college QB comes into the light by 2022. We only score a few points per game now so how much lower can it go...
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In comment 15429219 HomerJones45 said:
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nor in the win column or the scoring column.
Jones is 21st in QBR, 22 in Y/A, 29th in TD passes, 27th in QB rate, 18th in first downs, 21st in first down percentage.
And for those who claim he is under constant pressure, he's tied for 15th in number of sacks.
His numbers yesterday were a thoroughly pedestrian 22-33 203 yards and a td- virtually the same numbers as Case Keenum against the Broncos.
That is not a "franchise qb". Yes, the Giants won yesterday which is enjoyable, but let's not fool ourselves and continue to fall in love with mediocre players to the extent that we do not demand better. I did enough of that in the 70's, thank you.
I watched the game, I saw a quarterback who was the best player on the field lift his team to victory
Cherry picked statistics don’t change what we saw.
But the debate is over, really no need to engage the critics anymore, other than for the entertainment of it. He will be the quarterback next year and probably well beyond that as well.
Cherry picked stats...lol The man's combined W/L record in college and the NFL is abysmal. All of the reasoning to say the debate is over is subjective. He was not good in the Red Zone yesterday. How bout' he wins a couple games that matter before we close the book on the debate? I am not saying he isn't the guy, I just stepped off the bandwagon TBH. I had to step off because of the overwhelming amount of objective evidence.
For me, wins that matter and TDs in the red zone will convince me. Show me those quick decisions into tight windows inside the twenty. A couple of pretty fade routes, hit some guys crossing along the end line. That kind of thing. You know, what the franchise guys do with some consistency. It is what earns them the label.
Kind of thought it was obvious we were talking about yesterday’s game, which by the way they won, mostly because of Jones, winning s a stat that still matters, right?
Yet , yesterday s win was being discounted by cherry picked stats.
Last time I saw the offense starting to click like this was N.O. Get back some of Shep, Golladay, Toney and Barkley, and combine them with a similar offensive game plan, and I'd have to think you're going to worry some opposing DC's.
Why so late? He had all of those players in the first few games. I am yet to see Jones is even good enough to be able to use Golladay. he's not a 3 yards separation receiver on a slant route type of player. Which is pretty much all Jones can throw. Otherwise he is running ... tht works about 1 in 4 games when good teams don't show up to play. If you think that is going to be good enough in the playoffs in the NFL ; then knock yourself out.
Further I have to laugh at this whole Barkley out again. He hasn't been good since Eli was playing here 3 years ago ! o/
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In comment 15429252 joeinpa said:
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In comment 15429219 HomerJones45 said:
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nor in the win column or the scoring column.
Jones is 21st in QBR, 22 in Y/A, 29th in TD passes, 27th in QB rate, 18th in first downs, 21st in first down percentage.
And for those who claim he is under constant pressure, he's tied for 15th in number of sacks.
His numbers yesterday were a thoroughly pedestrian 22-33 203 yards and a td- virtually the same numbers as Case Keenum against the Broncos.
That is not a "franchise qb". Yes, the Giants won yesterday which is enjoyable, but let's not fool ourselves and continue to fall in love with mediocre players to the extent that we do not demand better. I did enough of that in the 70's, thank you.
I watched the game, I saw a quarterback who was the best player on the field lift his team to victory
Cherry picked statistics don’t change what we saw.
But the debate is over, really no need to engage the critics anymore, other than for the entertainment of it. He will be the quarterback next year and probably well beyond that as well.
Cherry picked stats...lol The man's combined W/L record in college and the NFL is abysmal. All of the reasoning to say the debate is over is subjective. He was not good in the Red Zone yesterday. How bout' he wins a couple games that matter before we close the book on the debate? I am not saying he isn't the guy, I just stepped off the bandwagon TBH. I had to step off because of the overwhelming amount of objective evidence.
For me, wins that matter and TDs in the red zone will convince me. Show me those quick decisions into tight windows inside the twenty. A couple of pretty fade routes, hit some guys crossing along the end line. That kind of thing. You know, what the franchise guys do with some consistency. It is what earns them the label.
Kind of thought it was obvious we were talking about yesterday’s game, which by the way they won, mostly because of Jones, winning s a stat that still matters, right?
Yet , yesterday s win was being discounted by cherry picked stats.
No it was mostly because of the defense. Olij and Leanord and Bradley made some plays.
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In comment 15429252 joeinpa said:
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In comment 15429219 HomerJones45 said:
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nor in the win column or the scoring column.
Jones is 21st in QBR, 22 in Y/A, 29th in TD passes, 27th in QB rate, 18th in first downs, 21st in first down percentage.
And for those who claim he is under constant pressure, he's tied for 15th in number of sacks.
His numbers yesterday were a thoroughly pedestrian 22-33 203 yards and a td- virtually the same numbers as Case Keenum against the Broncos.
That is not a "franchise qb". Yes, the Giants won yesterday which is enjoyable, but let's not fool ourselves and continue to fall in love with mediocre players to the extent that we do not demand better. I did enough of that in the 70's, thank you.
I watched the game, I saw a quarterback who was the best player on the field lift his team to victory
Cherry picked statistics don’t change what we saw.
But the debate is over, really no need to engage the critics anymore, other than for the entertainment of it. He will be the quarterback next year and probably well beyond that as well.
Cherry picked stats...lol The man's combined W/L record in college and the NFL is abysmal. All of the reasoning to say the debate is over is subjective. He was not good in the Red Zone yesterday. How bout' he wins a couple games that matter before we close the book on the debate? I am not saying he isn't the guy, I just stepped off the bandwagon TBH. I had to step off because of the overwhelming amount of objective evidence.
For me, wins that matter and TDs in the red zone will convince me. Show me those quick decisions into tight windows inside the twenty. A couple of pretty fade routes, hit some guys crossing along the end line. That kind of thing. You know, what the franchise guys do with some consistency. It is what earns them the label.
Kind of thought it was obvious we were talking about yesterday’s game, which by the way they won, mostly because of Jones, winning s a stat that still matters, right?
Yet , yesterday s win was being discounted by cherry picked stats.
We don’t have to lie about why they mostly won the game. Who kept the Giants in it when they only mustard 3 points on offense through 2 and a half quarters?
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and the offense still might not be very good. Those are not mutually exclusive statements. Jones played like a competent QB yesterday, but let's be honest the Defense won that game.
It does not do DJ a disservice to state that he has not earned the "franchise" QB status.
At some point we as fans need to stop asking on how the front office and coaching staff can surround Jones with better talent and better offensive scheme to make him look good, and start asking how can DJ make the rest of the team better? There a lot of good QBs that play with mediocre OL and no-name receivers who manage to put up big games in the NFL b/c the league is so pass happy. It would be great to see DJ get to a point by the end of the season where being "competent" isn't the bar for whether he is a franchise QB.
Define mediocre. Our Oline is the worst in the NFL. I don't even think it's an argument.
The Giants patchwork OL is pass protecting better than people realize. The pressure rate, QB hits and sack rate are near top of the NFL and suggest that Jones has enough time to read the D and throw: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/advanced.htm
Now the Giants can't run the ball effectively and Garrett has the WRs running stick routes far too often, but maybe Jones is playing to his potential and that potential is a "competent" QB. I am not sure that is enough.
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In comment 15429267 Thegratefulhead said:
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In comment 15429252 joeinpa said:
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In comment 15429219 HomerJones45 said:
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nor in the win column or the scoring column.
Jones is 21st in QBR, 22 in Y/A, 29th in TD passes, 27th in QB rate, 18th in first downs, 21st in first down percentage.
And for those who claim he is under constant pressure, he's tied for 15th in number of sacks.
His numbers yesterday were a thoroughly pedestrian 22-33 203 yards and a td- virtually the same numbers as Case Keenum against the Broncos.
That is not a "franchise qb". Yes, the Giants won yesterday which is enjoyable, but let's not fool ourselves and continue to fall in love with mediocre players to the extent that we do not demand better. I did enough of that in the 70's, thank you.
I watched the game, I saw a quarterback who was the best player on the field lift his team to victory
Cherry picked statistics don’t change what we saw.
But the debate is over, really no need to engage the critics anymore, other than for the entertainment of it. He will be the quarterback next year and probably well beyond that as well.
Cherry picked stats...lol The man's combined W/L record in college and the NFL is abysmal. All of the reasoning to say the debate is over is subjective. He was not good in the Red Zone yesterday. How bout' he wins a couple games that matter before we close the book on the debate? I am not saying he isn't the guy, I just stepped off the bandwagon TBH. I had to step off because of the overwhelming amount of objective evidence.
For me, wins that matter and TDs in the red zone will convince me. Show me those quick decisions into tight windows inside the twenty. A couple of pretty fade routes, hit some guys crossing along the end line. That kind of thing. You know, what the franchise guys do with some consistency. It is what earns them the label.
Kind of thought it was obvious we were talking about yesterday’s game, which by the way they won, mostly because of Jones, winning s a stat that still matters, right?
Yet , yesterday s win was being discounted by cherry picked stats.
We don’t have to lie about why they mostly won the game. Who kept the Giants in it when they only mustard 3 points on offense through 2 and a half quarters?
He's a troll at this point. Every other post was a bash Eli post because people here rightly believed that you could still win with Eli and that Eli was holding them back. Now 3 years later and yet more losing seasons it is still Eli's fault and Jones is the only bright spot ona team that is the RBs fault, Garret's fault, Coaches fault, Defense fault etc.
Meanwhile Eli was audibling out of plays on the goal line in his first ever game; on his first ever TD drive against a good Championship bound Falcons team. We're still wondering when he is gong to throw TDs and blame garetts play calling. Not to mention that Redskins play when they called the safety up
He gets plenty of bonus points from many fans and possibly from management for being "easy to root for" but his actual performance is below average.
I'm ambivalent about Jones in 2022 - we're going to suck next year regardless so it doesn't matter. The terrifying thing is Jones riding a few good games and his "easy to root for-ness" into a long term deal. That would put a very low ceiling on this franchise for a long time.
Missing on a 1st round pick QB isn't great, but it's not a disaster. It happens all the time. We took a few years, saw that he has no upside. Fine. The disaster is extending it. Then we're doomed to q long period of mediocrity at best. This is a very dangerous time for the team (assuming they have ambitions of actually building a contender)
& unless Mara cleans house, I suspect he's the QB next fall. A new GM & a new HC...then who the hell knows?
Gun to head...I think DG is gone, but JJ is retained & JJ seems high on DJ so...
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In comment 15429117 kdog77 said:
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and the offense still might not be very good. Those are not mutually exclusive statements. Jones played like a competent QB yesterday, but let's be honest the Defense won that game.
It does not do DJ a disservice to state that he has not earned the "franchise" QB status.
At some point we as fans need to stop asking on how the front office and coaching staff can surround Jones with better talent and better offensive scheme to make him look good, and start asking how can DJ make the rest of the team better? There a lot of good QBs that play with mediocre OL and no-name receivers who manage to put up big games in the NFL b/c the league is so pass happy. It would be great to see DJ get to a point by the end of the season where being "competent" isn't the bar for whether he is a franchise QB.
Define mediocre. Our Oline is the worst in the NFL. I don't even think it's an argument.
The Giants patchwork OL is pass protecting better than people realize. The pressure rate, QB hits and sack rate are near top of the NFL and suggest that Jones has enough time to read the D and throw: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/advanced.htm
Now the Giants can't run the ball effectively and Garrett has the WRs running stick routes far too often, but maybe Jones is playing to his potential and that potential is a "competent" QB. I am not sure that is enough.
Simply not true. The protection sucks and Jones is coping as good as you could hope for.
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In comment 15429288 joeinpa said:
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In comment 15429267 Thegratefulhead said:
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In comment 15429252 joeinpa said:
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In comment 15429219 HomerJones45 said:
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nor in the win column or the scoring column.
Jones is 21st in QBR, 22 in Y/A, 29th in TD passes, 27th in QB rate, 18th in first downs, 21st in first down percentage.
And for those who claim he is under constant pressure, he's tied for 15th in number of sacks.
His numbers yesterday were a thoroughly pedestrian 22-33 203 yards and a td- virtually the same numbers as Case Keenum against the Broncos.
That is not a "franchise qb". Yes, the Giants won yesterday which is enjoyable, but let's not fool ourselves and continue to fall in love with mediocre players to the extent that we do not demand better. I did enough of that in the 70's, thank you.
I watched the game, I saw a quarterback who was the best player on the field lift his team to victory
Cherry picked statistics don’t change what we saw.
But the debate is over, really no need to engage the critics anymore, other than for the entertainment of it. He will be the quarterback next year and probably well beyond that as well.
Cherry picked stats...lol The man's combined W/L record in college and the NFL is abysmal. All of the reasoning to say the debate is over is subjective. He was not good in the Red Zone yesterday. How bout' he wins a couple games that matter before we close the book on the debate? I am not saying he isn't the guy, I just stepped off the bandwagon TBH. I had to step off because of the overwhelming amount of objective evidence.
For me, wins that matter and TDs in the red zone will convince me. Show me those quick decisions into tight windows inside the twenty. A couple of pretty fade routes, hit some guys crossing along the end line. That kind of thing. You know, what the franchise guys do with some consistency. It is what earns them the label.
Kind of thought it was obvious we were talking about yesterday’s game, which by the way they won, mostly because of Jones, winning s a stat that still matters, right?
Yet , yesterday s win was being discounted by cherry picked stats.
We don’t have to lie about why they mostly won the game. Who kept the Giants in it when they only mustard 3 points on offense through 2 and a half quarters?
He's a troll at this point. Every other post was a bash Eli post because people here rightly believed that you could still win with Eli and that Eli was holding them back. Now 3 years later and yet more losing seasons it is still Eli's fault and Jones is the only bright spot ona team that is the RBs fault, Garret's fault, Coaches fault, Defense fault etc.
Meanwhile Eli was audibling out of plays on the goal line in his first ever game; on his first ever TD drive against a good Championship bound Falcons team. We're still wondering when he is gong to throw TDs and blame garetts play calling. Not to mention that Redskins play when they called the safety up
Debaser, I really don’t understand your repeated argument that my support of Jones somehow equates to disrespecting Eli, I loved Eli and nothing you think can change that.
I enjoy debating other s points of view, but in the the process I make certain to never attack the poster making those points in a personal way.
But here s the thing, I also disengage with those that make personal attacks. I ve obviously upset you to the point you feel the need to name call. I m not in jr high school anymore; I m not a troll.
But you get the last word.
I will no longer take the time to respond to any of your takes on Jones or any other topic.
Nothing personal, but I no longer enjoy the give and take with you.
This only matters when Jones has a good game but the Giants lose, not other QB's Debaser/Producer like. Get with the goal post moving program.
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In comment 15429129 Thunderstruck27 said:
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In comment 15429117 kdog77 said:
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and the offense still might not be very good. Those are not mutually exclusive statements. Jones played like a competent QB yesterday, but let's be honest the Defense won that game.
It does not do DJ a disservice to state that he has not earned the "franchise" QB status.
At some point we as fans need to stop asking on how the front office and coaching staff can surround Jones with better talent and better offensive scheme to make him look good, and start asking how can DJ make the rest of the team better? There a lot of good QBs that play with mediocre OL and no-name receivers who manage to put up big games in the NFL b/c the league is so pass happy. It would be great to see DJ get to a point by the end of the season where being "competent" isn't the bar for whether he is a franchise QB.
Define mediocre. Our Oline is the worst in the NFL. I don't even think it's an argument.
The Giants patchwork OL is pass protecting better than people realize. The pressure rate, QB hits and sack rate are near top of the NFL and suggest that Jones has enough time to read the D and throw: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/advanced.htm
Now the Giants can't run the ball effectively and Garrett has the WRs running stick routes far too often, but maybe Jones is playing to his potential and that potential is a "competent" QB. I am not sure that is enough.
Simply not true. The protection sucks and Jones is coping as good as you could hope for.
He’s in the bottom half of sack rate.
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In comment 15429294 kdog77 said:
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In comment 15429129 Thunderstruck27 said:
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In comment 15429117 kdog77 said:
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and the offense still might not be very good. Those are not mutually exclusive statements. Jones played like a competent QB yesterday, but let's be honest the Defense won that game.
It does not do DJ a disservice to state that he has not earned the "franchise" QB status.
At some point we as fans need to stop asking on how the front office and coaching staff can surround Jones with better talent and better offensive scheme to make him look good, and start asking how can DJ make the rest of the team better? There a lot of good QBs that play with mediocre OL and no-name receivers who manage to put up big games in the NFL b/c the league is so pass happy. It would be great to see DJ get to a point by the end of the season where being "competent" isn't the bar for whether he is a franchise QB.
Define mediocre. Our Oline is the worst in the NFL. I don't even think it's an argument.
The Giants patchwork OL is pass protecting better than people realize. The pressure rate, QB hits and sack rate are near top of the NFL and suggest that Jones has enough time to read the D and throw: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/advanced.htm
Now the Giants can't run the ball effectively and Garrett has the WRs running stick routes far too often, but maybe Jones is playing to his potential and that potential is a "competent" QB. I am not sure that is enough.
Simply not true. The protection sucks and Jones is coping as good as you could hope for.
He’s in the bottom half of sack rate.
Only because he is mobile and he is getting rid of the ball quickly.
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The Anti Jones cabal is probably doing a Zoom meeting right now figuring how to properly address this outrage. They will let their outrage be felt!
Or some of us don't live our lives believing everything Carl Banks says to be the undisputed truth.
There it is!
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nor in the win column or the scoring column.
Jones is 21st in QBR, 22 in Y/A, 29th in TD passes, 27th in QB rate, 18th in first downs, 21st in first down percentage.
And for those who claim he is under constant pressure, he's tied for 15th in number of sacks.
His numbers yesterday were a thoroughly pedestrian 22-33 203 yards and a td- virtually the same numbers as Case Keenum against the Broncos.
That is not a "franchise qb". Yes, the Giants won yesterday which is enjoyable, but let's not fool ourselves and continue to fall in love with mediocre players to the extent that we do not demand better. I did enough of that in the 70's, thank you.
I watched the game, I saw a quarterback who was the best player on the field lift his team to victory
Cherry picked statistics don’t change what we saw.
But the debate is over, really no need to engage the critics anymore, other than for the entertainment of it. He will be the quarterback next year and probably well beyond that as well.
Given the people who run the team, I think you are probably right. They will bring in a coach to help “fix” Jones. It won’t work but that is what they will try.
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In comment 15429360 Prude said:
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In comment 15429294 kdog77 said:
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In comment 15429129 Thunderstruck27 said:
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In comment 15429117 kdog77 said:
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and the offense still might not be very good. Those are not mutually exclusive statements. Jones played like a competent QB yesterday, but let's be honest the Defense won that game.
It does not do DJ a disservice to state that he has not earned the "franchise" QB status.
At some point we as fans need to stop asking on how the front office and coaching staff can surround Jones with better talent and better offensive scheme to make him look good, and start asking how can DJ make the rest of the team better? There a lot of good QBs that play with mediocre OL and no-name receivers who manage to put up big games in the NFL b/c the league is so pass happy. It would be great to see DJ get to a point by the end of the season where being "competent" isn't the bar for whether he is a franchise QB.
Define mediocre. Our Oline is the worst in the NFL. I don't even think it's an argument.
The Giants patchwork OL is pass protecting better than people realize. The pressure rate, QB hits and sack rate are near top of the NFL and suggest that Jones has enough time to read the D and throw: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/advanced.htm
Now the Giants can't run the ball effectively and Garrett has the WRs running stick routes far too often, but maybe Jones is playing to his potential and that potential is a "competent" QB. I am not sure that is enough.
Simply not true. The protection sucks and Jones is coping as good as you could hope for.
He’s in the bottom half of sack rate.
Only because he is mobile and he is getting rid of the ball quickly.
He has the 17th longest time to throw, right in the middle. He’s had more time to throw than Carr, Rodgers, Dak, Russ, Herbert, Cousins, Brady to name a few.
He gets plenty of bonus points from many fans and possibly from management for being "easy to root for" but his actual performance is below average.
I'm ambivalent about Jones in 2022 - we're going to suck next year regardless so it doesn't matter. The terrifying thing is Jones riding a few good games and his "easy to root for-ness" into a long term deal. That would put a very low ceiling on this franchise for a long time.
Missing on a 1st round pick QB isn't great, but it's not a disaster. It happens all the time. We took a few years, saw that he has no upside. Fine. The disaster is extending it. Then we're doomed to q long period of mediocrity at best. This is a very dangerous time for the team (assuming they have ambitions of actually building a contender)
+1
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what’s the retort on that one? By the way check out some of those names with great protection who also stink - Roethlisberger, Hurts, Garroppolo, etc.
apparently there isn’t much correlation between sack rate, this pass block rating (however that is derived) and passing stats. There are some qb’s having much better years who are in the same neighborhood.
Perfectly fine, and a bunch who aren’t. It’s far more middle of the road than you and a bunch of others want to admit.
It’s still just a big circle jerk of nothing anyway. There’s no clear path to upgrade right now so it’s day after day of pissing and moaning. Nothing new is ever learned.
I think he would be fine if you had a decent line. And yes, he made everyone on offense better yesterday.
+1
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You need to fortify the lines. The last thing you should do is pick a QB to be sacrificed to a bad line. So build the lines and edge rush and if Jones isn’t the goods then you get a QB.
I think he would be fine if you had a decent line. And yes, he made everyone on offense better yesterday.
+1
Disagree. You pick the elite talent at QB when it is there for you. You don't pass on Peyton or Luck or Herbert because the team isn't at the right moment. passing on the elite talent is how you wind up never getting one.
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In comment 15429216 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
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You need to fortify the lines. The last thing you should do is pick a QB to be sacrificed to a bad line. So build the lines and edge rush and if Jones isn’t the goods then you get a QB.
I think he would be fine if you had a decent line. And yes, he made everyone on offense better yesterday.
+1
Disagree. You pick the elite talent at QB when it is there for you. You don't pass on Peyton or Luck or Herbert because the team isn't at the right moment. passing on the elite talent is how you wind up never getting one.
I agree
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In comment 15429377 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15429360 Prude said:
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In comment 15429294 kdog77 said:
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In comment 15429129 Thunderstruck27 said:
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In comment 15429117 kdog77 said:
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and the offense still might not be very good. Those are not mutually exclusive statements. Jones played like a competent QB yesterday, but let's be honest the Defense won that game.
It does not do DJ a disservice to state that he has not earned the "franchise" QB status.
At some point we as fans need to stop asking on how the front office and coaching staff can surround Jones with better talent and better offensive scheme to make him look good, and start asking how can DJ make the rest of the team better? There a lot of good QBs that play with mediocre OL and no-name receivers who manage to put up big games in the NFL b/c the league is so pass happy. It would be great to see DJ get to a point by the end of the season where being "competent" isn't the bar for whether he is a franchise QB.
Define mediocre. Our Oline is the worst in the NFL. I don't even think it's an argument.
The Giants patchwork OL is pass protecting better than people realize. The pressure rate, QB hits and sack rate are near top of the NFL and suggest that Jones has enough time to read the D and throw: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/advanced.htm
Now the Giants can't run the ball effectively and Garrett has the WRs running stick routes far too often, but maybe Jones is playing to his potential and that potential is a "competent" QB. I am not sure that is enough.
Simply not true. The protection sucks and Jones is coping as good as you could hope for.
He’s in the bottom half of sack rate.
Only because he is mobile and he is getting rid of the ball quickly.
He has the 17th longest time to throw, right in the middle. He’s had more time to throw than Carr, Rodgers, Dak, Russ, Herbert, Cousins, Brady to name a few.
Time to throw is a QB stat not an OLine stat. It completely excludes sacks. You need to look at it as "time the qb takes to make his read and get rid of the ball".
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In comment 15429383 PatersonPlank said:
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In comment 15429377 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15429360 Prude said:
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In comment 15429294 kdog77 said:
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In comment 15429129 Thunderstruck27 said:
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In comment 15429117 kdog77 said:
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and the offense still might not be very good. Those are not mutually exclusive statements. Jones played like a competent QB yesterday, but let's be honest the Defense won that game.
It does not do DJ a disservice to state that he has not earned the "franchise" QB status.
At some point we as fans need to stop asking on how the front office and coaching staff can surround Jones with better talent and better offensive scheme to make him look good, and start asking how can DJ make the rest of the team better? There a lot of good QBs that play with mediocre OL and no-name receivers who manage to put up big games in the NFL b/c the league is so pass happy. It would be great to see DJ get to a point by the end of the season where being "competent" isn't the bar for whether he is a franchise QB.
Define mediocre. Our Oline is the worst in the NFL. I don't even think it's an argument.
The Giants patchwork OL is pass protecting better than people realize. The pressure rate, QB hits and sack rate are near top of the NFL and suggest that Jones has enough time to read the D and throw: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/advanced.htm
Now the Giants can't run the ball effectively and Garrett has the WRs running stick routes far too often, but maybe Jones is playing to his potential and that potential is a "competent" QB. I am not sure that is enough.
Simply not true. The protection sucks and Jones is coping as good as you could hope for.
He’s in the bottom half of sack rate.
Only because he is mobile and he is getting rid of the ball quickly.
He has the 17th longest time to throw, right in the middle. He’s had more time to throw than Carr, Rodgers, Dak, Russ, Herbert, Cousins, Brady to name a few.
Time to throw is a QB stat not an OLine stat. It completely excludes sacks. You need to look at it as "time the qb takes to make his read and get rid of the ball".
What? The excuse for him being at the bottom half of the league in sacks was that he gets the ball out quick, which isn’t the case.
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In comment 15429405 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15429383 PatersonPlank said:
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In comment 15429377 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15429360 Prude said:
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In comment 15429294 kdog77 said:
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In comment 15429129 Thunderstruck27 said:
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In comment 15429117 kdog77 said:
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and the offense still might not be very good. Those are not mutually exclusive statements. Jones played like a competent QB yesterday, but let's be honest the Defense won that game.
It does not do DJ a disservice to state that he has not earned the "franchise" QB status.
At some point we as fans need to stop asking on how the front office and coaching staff can surround Jones with better talent and better offensive scheme to make him look good, and start asking how can DJ make the rest of the team better? There a lot of good QBs that play with mediocre OL and no-name receivers who manage to put up big games in the NFL b/c the league is so pass happy. It would be great to see DJ get to a point by the end of the season where being "competent" isn't the bar for whether he is a franchise QB.
Define mediocre. Our Oline is the worst in the NFL. I don't even think it's an argument.
The Giants patchwork OL is pass protecting better than people realize. The pressure rate, QB hits and sack rate are near top of the NFL and suggest that Jones has enough time to read the D and throw: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/advanced.htm
Now the Giants can't run the ball effectively and Garrett has the WRs running stick routes far too often, but maybe Jones is playing to his potential and that potential is a "competent" QB. I am not sure that is enough.
Simply not true. The protection sucks and Jones is coping as good as you could hope for.
He’s in the bottom half of sack rate.
Only because he is mobile and he is getting rid of the ball quickly.
He has the 17th longest time to throw, right in the middle. He’s had more time to throw than Carr, Rodgers, Dak, Russ, Herbert, Cousins, Brady to name a few.
Time to throw is a QB stat not an OLine stat. It completely excludes sacks. You need to look at it as "time the qb takes to make his read and get rid of the ball".
What? The excuse for him being at the bottom half of the league in sacks was that he gets the ball out quick, which isn’t the case.
Whatever dude, 'm not arguing just trying to explain how the advanced stats work. Looks like he's getting rid of the ball quick to me fwiw.
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In comment 15429460 Prude said:
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In comment 15429405 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15429383 PatersonPlank said:
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In comment 15429377 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15429360 Prude said:
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In comment 15429294 kdog77 said:
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In comment 15429129 Thunderstruck27 said:
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In comment 15429117 kdog77 said:
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and the offense still might not be very good. Those are not mutually exclusive statements. Jones played like a competent QB yesterday, but let's be honest the Defense won that game.
It does not do DJ a disservice to state that he has not earned the "franchise" QB status.
At some point we as fans need to stop asking on how the front office and coaching staff can surround Jones with better talent and better offensive scheme to make him look good, and start asking how can DJ make the rest of the team better? There a lot of good QBs that play with mediocre OL and no-name receivers who manage to put up big games in the NFL b/c the league is so pass happy. It would be great to see DJ get to a point by the end of the season where being "competent" isn't the bar for whether he is a franchise QB.
Define mediocre. Our Oline is the worst in the NFL. I don't even think it's an argument.
The Giants patchwork OL is pass protecting better than people realize. The pressure rate, QB hits and sack rate are near top of the NFL and suggest that Jones has enough time to read the D and throw: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/advanced.htm
Now the Giants can't run the ball effectively and Garrett has the WRs running stick routes far too often, but maybe Jones is playing to his potential and that potential is a "competent" QB. I am not sure that is enough.
Simply not true. The protection sucks and Jones is coping as good as you could hope for.
He’s in the bottom half of sack rate.
Only because he is mobile and he is getting rid of the ball quickly.
He has the 17th longest time to throw, right in the middle. He’s had more time to throw than Carr, Rodgers, Dak, Russ, Herbert, Cousins, Brady to name a few.
Time to throw is a QB stat not an OLine stat. It completely excludes sacks. You need to look at it as "time the qb takes to make his read and get rid of the ball".
What? The excuse for him being at the bottom half of the league in sacks was that he gets the ball out quick, which isn’t the case.
Whatever dude, 'm not arguing just trying to explain how the advanced stats work. Looks like he's getting rid of the ball quick to me fwiw.
Maybe. His pressure number may be lower because he has figured a way to evade it. Ok, then why do his production stats suck?
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and the offense still might not be very good. Those are not mutually exclusive statements. Jones played like a competent QB yesterday, but let's be honest the Defense won that game.
It does not do DJ a disservice to state that he has not earned the "franchise" QB status.
At some point we as fans need to stop asking on how the front office and coaching staff can surround Jones with better talent and better offensive scheme to make him look good, and start asking how can DJ make the rest of the team better? There a lot of good QBs that play with mediocre OL and no-name receivers who manage to put up big games in the NFL b/c the league is so pass happy. It would be great to see DJ get to a point by the end of the season where being "competent" isn't the bar for whether he is a franchise QB.
Define mediocre. Our Oline is the worst in the NFL. I don't even think it's an argument.
The Giants patchwork OL is pass protecting better than people realize. The pressure rate, QB hits and sack rate are near top of the NFL and suggest that Jones has enough time to read the D and throw: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/advanced.htm
Now the Giants can't run the ball effectively and Garrett has the WRs running stick routes far too often, but maybe Jones is playing to his potential and that potential is a "competent" QB. I am not sure that is enough.
Simply not true. The protection sucks and Jones is coping as good as you could hope for.
He’s in the bottom half of sack rate.
Only because he is mobile and he is getting rid of the ball quickly.
He has the 17th longest time to throw, right in the middle. He’s had more time to throw than Carr, Rodgers, Dak, Russ, Herbert, Cousins, Brady to name a few.
Time to throw is a QB stat not an OLine stat. It completely excludes sacks. You need to look at it as "time the qb takes to make his read and get rid of the ball".
What? The excuse for him being at the bottom half of the league in sacks was that he gets the ball out quick, which isn’t the case.
Whatever dude, 'm not arguing just trying to explain how the advanced stats work. Looks like he's getting rid of the ball quick to me fwiw.
You’re not though. He’s getting sacked at an average rate, getting the ball out at an average rate. The only advanced stat that gives any evidence that he’s not getting good protection is PFF pass blocking grades.
And don’t pretend like you weren’t trying to agitate—putting it kindly—other posters here for Eli losing a lot of games. He played on worse teams with worse receivers. Shep is a #3 guy here now. And just as bad oline
But yea just what I need contradicting another guy slobbing jones knob every week when he is losing a lot and not really that good.
That is one possible interpretation. But why are his numbers so bad if he is able to neutralize pressure?
And don’t pretend like you weren’t trying to agitate—putting it kindly—other posters here for Eli losing a lot of games. He played on worse teams with worse receivers. Shep is a #3 guy here now. And just as bad oline
But yea just what I need contradicting another guy slobbing jones knob every week when he is losing a lot and not really that good.
Wtf are you talking about. Eli had OBJ.
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In comment 15429245 UConn4523 said:
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what’s the solution? He’s traded for whatever we get and we have a clean slate heading into the 2022 offseason - now what?
Lots of exciting options probably available after the season - Teddy Bridgewater, Nick Muellens, Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, Dwayne Haskins, Drew Lock, Tua, Jimmy G, Goff, Fitzmagic. Might even be able to get ryan finley out of his contract with meineke car care. you won't have to pay a lot but you will get a lot.
Tua threw almost as many TDs yesterday as Jones threw in seven games.
He lost. Just like you are lost
Cherry pick stats? Hmm ok how about TDs? Is that some obscure QB stat?
11 last year not that many this year... 70 million dollar receivers;1st round draft pick receiver invested ; yet here we are 2-7.
Rest of the season? The point is to win games and go to the playoffs and win the SB. It isn’t to play meaningless games when you’ve shown after week three you’re not a playoff team after three games and not gotten better.
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In comment 15429257 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 15429245 UConn4523 said:
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what’s the solution? He’s traded for whatever we get and we have a clean slate heading into the 2022 offseason - now what?
Lots of exciting options probably available after the season - Teddy Bridgewater, Nick Muellens, Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, Dwayne Haskins, Drew Lock, Tua, Jimmy G, Goff, Fitzmagic. Might even be able to get ryan finley out of his contract with meineke car care. you won't have to pay a lot but you will get a lot.
Tua threw almost as many TDs yesterday as Jones threw in seven games.
He lost. Just like you are lost
Wow you made a funny. I get it now, losing is ok as long as your stats are shit, like Jones. But if your stats are good and you lose, that's no good.
right. it's totally coordinated. There aren't individuals who happen to share an opinion that the losses and Jones' production are indications of a bad QB. We lack the deeper understanding of football that you clearly have, which allows you to see beyond objective numbers and know Jones is actually great, even though objective metrics suggest he sucks.
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First they sent in the agitators with their maddening arguments that either show a near complete lack of the understanding of football, or use cherry picked stats to hammer home a baseless point. These agitators cannot be reasoned with as its almost like they never even bother to watch the games, they only serve to get everyone riled up. Then the leaders appear with their pithy arguments reeking of certainty to assure all that the decisions already been made and it's no use to go against it. It matters not what the team and Daniel Jones do for the rest of the season, the die has been cast and the Giants will be better off going with Trubisky next year, saving a fortune to be used on something we shall not now know and starting all over. This is the lot we have so we must live with it
right. it's totally coordinated. There aren't individuals who happen to share an opinion that the losses and Jones' production are indications of a bad QB. We lack the deeper understanding of football that you clearly have, which allows you to see beyond objective numbers and know Jones is actually great, even though objective metrics suggest he sucks.
Barring Jones wheels coming off, you might as well count on his option getting picked up. Looking forward to your daily Jones bashing posts in the future
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First they sent in the agitators with their maddening arguments that either show a near complete lack of the understanding of football, or use cherry picked stats to hammer home a baseless point. These agitators cannot be reasoned with as its almost like they never even bother to watch the games, they only serve to get everyone riled up. Then the leaders appear with their pithy arguments reeking of certainty to assure all that the decisions already been made and it's no use to go against it. It matters not what the team and Daniel Jones do for the rest of the season, the die has been cast and the Giants will be better off going with Trubisky next year, saving a fortune to be used on something we shall not now know and starting all over. This is the lot we have so we must live with it
right. it's totally coordinated. There aren't individuals who happen to share an opinion that the losses and Jones' production are indications of a bad QB. We lack the deeper understanding of football that you clearly have, which allows you to see beyond objective numbers and know Jones is actually great, even though objective metrics suggest he sucks.
Producer I can't imagine what would ever make you think I was ever referencing you.
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In comment 15429505 Walker Gillette said:
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First they sent in the agitators with their maddening arguments that either show a near complete lack of the understanding of football, or use cherry picked stats to hammer home a baseless point. These agitators cannot be reasoned with as its almost like they never even bother to watch the games, they only serve to get everyone riled up. Then the leaders appear with their pithy arguments reeking of certainty to assure all that the decisions already been made and it's no use to go against it. It matters not what the team and Daniel Jones do for the rest of the season, the die has been cast and the Giants will be better off going with Trubisky next year, saving a fortune to be used on something we shall not now know and starting all over. This is the lot we have so we must live with it
right. it's totally coordinated. There aren't individuals who happen to share an opinion that the losses and Jones' production are indications of a bad QB. We lack the deeper understanding of football that you clearly have, which allows you to see beyond objective numbers and know Jones is actually great, even though objective metrics suggest he sucks.
Producer I can't imagine what would ever make you think I was ever referencing you.
referring to you
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In comment 15429505 Walker Gillette said:
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First they sent in the agitators with their maddening arguments that either show a near complete lack of the understanding of football, or use cherry picked stats to hammer home a baseless point. These agitators cannot be reasoned with as its almost like they never even bother to watch the games, they only serve to get everyone riled up. Then the leaders appear with their pithy arguments reeking of certainty to assure all that the decisions already been made and it's no use to go against it. It matters not what the team and Daniel Jones do for the rest of the season, the die has been cast and the Giants will be better off going with Trubisky next year, saving a fortune to be used on something we shall not now know and starting all over. This is the lot we have so we must live with it
right. it's totally coordinated. There aren't individuals who happen to share an opinion that the losses and Jones' production are indications of a bad QB. We lack the deeper understanding of football that you clearly have, which allows you to see beyond objective numbers and know Jones is actually great, even though objective metrics suggest he sucks.
Barring Jones wheels coming off, you might as well count on his option getting picked up. Looking forward to your daily Jones bashing posts in the future
If he plays like an elite QB I will praise him, not bash him. If he plays like a chump, I'll say that. It's not personal. I want the Giants to win the Super Bowl. I could care less if Jones is the QB for it or not. Unlike the Jones cult here.
No, they want to win with a loser. That's the Giants way. Pound the ball. Be tough. Win with defense. No fancy pants QB. If we don't win this way, what's the point of winning. it doesn't matter that the rules have changed and styles have changed, we must win the Giants way.
You haven't noticed the extreme reduction in turnovers since the middle of last year?
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In comment 15429513 Producer said:
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In comment 15429505 Walker Gillette said:
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First they sent in the agitators with their maddening arguments that either show a near complete lack of the understanding of football, or use cherry picked stats to hammer home a baseless point. These agitators cannot be reasoned with as its almost like they never even bother to watch the games, they only serve to get everyone riled up. Then the leaders appear with their pithy arguments reeking of certainty to assure all that the decisions already been made and it's no use to go against it. It matters not what the team and Daniel Jones do for the rest of the season, the die has been cast and the Giants will be better off going with Trubisky next year, saving a fortune to be used on something we shall not now know and starting all over. This is the lot we have so we must live with it
right. it's totally coordinated. There aren't individuals who happen to share an opinion that the losses and Jones' production are indications of a bad QB. We lack the deeper understanding of football that you clearly have, which allows you to see beyond objective numbers and know Jones is actually great, even though objective metrics suggest he sucks.
Barring Jones wheels coming off, you might as well count on his option getting picked up. Looking forward to your daily Jones bashing posts in the future
If he plays like an elite QB I will praise him, not bash him. If he plays like a chump, I'll say that. It's not personal. I want the Giants to win the Super Bowl. I could care less if Jones is the QB for it or not. Unlike the Jones cult here.
I'm not gonna get into with you...but if you can name a better player on offense than Jones, that would to a long way toward your argument. The problem is, you can't...yet all your energy is spent shitting on the best player on this shitty offense. If these other players made any plays whatsoever, more people might be sympathetic to your argument
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Don’t you want a good QB? Don’t you want someone who can throw 50 yard bombs and like 4 tds AND win games? Don’t you want to go around drunk at the bars in manhattan on super bowl Sunday and have to call in sick the next day because you were celebrating the giants winning the super bowl?? You really think jones is magically going to start doing this while not turning the call over 40x
No, they want to win with a loser. That's the Giants way. Pound the ball. Be tough. Win with defense. No fancy pants QB. If we don't win this way, what's the point of winning. it doesn't matter that the rules have changed and styles have changed, we must win the Giants way.
One would think winning any way would suffice!
B) what type of WR we have
C) how many games they missed
D) what RBs we have had to keep pass rush honest
E) how some of you think you know more than banks, Simms or GMs
Just answer. How with the exception of 3 other QBs who can also move the rest would get killed.
F) someone like Tua wouldn’t last two games with this shit OL.
G) why not name the active WR on the roster and how many catches they have never mind touchdowns
H) why we are near the leaders in drop passes
I) penalties on OL which put us in long to go situations.
J) the only pass play we have are slants or roll outs cause of pass rush
K) yup it’s all on Jones.
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In comment 15429522 Debaser said:
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Don’t you want a good QB? Don’t you want someone who can throw 50 yard bombs and like 4 tds AND win games? Don’t you want to go around drunk at the bars in manhattan on super bowl Sunday and have to call in sick the next day because you were celebrating the giants winning the super bowl?? You really think jones is magically going to start doing this while not turning the call over 40x
No, they want to win with a loser. That's the Giants way. Pound the ball. Be tough. Win with defense. No fancy pants QB. If we don't win this way, what's the point of winning. it doesn't matter that the rules have changed and styles have changed, we must win the Giants way.
One would think winning any way would suffice!
Are we winning? I hadn't noticed.
Do you think denying the changes in the game is a smart strategy to win a championship? The other teams don't mind if the Giants have their heads up their asses. It's one less team to worry about. Sure let's take 5 years to figure out if the failed QB from Duke can transform into an elite NFL QB. It doesn't matter if he plays like Mitch Trubisky, he's our guy and we still have to *see* if he can do it. The whole thing is deranged. You guys have zero expectations. It's weird.
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In comment 15429524 Producer said:
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In comment 15429522 Debaser said:
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Don’t you want a good QB? Don’t you want someone who can throw 50 yard bombs and like 4 tds AND win games? Don’t you want to go around drunk at the bars in manhattan on super bowl Sunday and have to call in sick the next day because you were celebrating the giants winning the super bowl?? You really think jones is magically going to start doing this while not turning the call over 40x
No, they want to win with a loser. That's the Giants way. Pound the ball. Be tough. Win with defense. No fancy pants QB. If we don't win this way, what's the point of winning. it doesn't matter that the rules have changed and styles have changed, we must win the Giants way.
One would think winning any way would suffice!
Are we winning? I hadn't noticed.
Do you think denying the changes in the game is a smart strategy to win a championship? The other teams don't mind if the Giants have their heads up their asses. It's one less team to worry about. Sure let's take 5 years to figure out if the failed QB from Duke can transform into an elite NFL QB. It doesn't matter if he plays like Mitch Trubisky, he's our guy and we still have to *see* if he can do it. The whole thing is deranged. You guys have zero expectations. It's weird.
You certainly are an individual unto yourself!
You as well.
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In comment 15429516 Thunderstruck27 said:
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In comment 15429513 Producer said:
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In comment 15429505 Walker Gillette said:
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First they sent in the agitators with their maddening arguments that either show a near complete lack of the understanding of football, or use cherry picked stats to hammer home a baseless point. These agitators cannot be reasoned with as its almost like they never even bother to watch the games, they only serve to get everyone riled up. Then the leaders appear with their pithy arguments reeking of certainty to assure all that the decisions already been made and it's no use to go against it. It matters not what the team and Daniel Jones do for the rest of the season, the die has been cast and the Giants will be better off going with Trubisky next year, saving a fortune to be used on something we shall not now know and starting all over. This is the lot we have so we must live with it
right. it's totally coordinated. There aren't individuals who happen to share an opinion that the losses and Jones' production are indications of a bad QB. We lack the deeper understanding of football that you clearly have, which allows you to see beyond objective numbers and know Jones is actually great, even though objective metrics suggest he sucks.
Barring Jones wheels coming off, you might as well count on his option getting picked up. Looking forward to your daily Jones bashing posts in the future
If he plays like an elite QB I will praise him, not bash him. If he plays like a chump, I'll say that. It's not personal. I want the Giants to win the Super Bowl. I could care less if Jones is the QB for it or not. Unlike the Jones cult here.
I'm not gonna get into with you...but if you can name a better player on offense than Jones, that would to a long way toward your argument. The problem is, you can't...yet all your energy is spent shitting on the best player on this shitty offense. If these other players made any plays whatsoever, more people might be sympathetic to your argument
Yes I keep hearing this. This is the wrong standard.
Jones doesn't need to be the best player on the Giants, he needs to be one of the best QBs in the league. Look at all the elite QBs, they are all the best players on their team, and they are in the top-20 in the NFL, or better. That's the standard. Being a bad and boring QB on a bad team isn't moving the needle.
Of course the QB should be the best player on the team. Of course. But we can't build a sustained winner without a top QB, and we don't have that.
B) what type of WR we have
C) how many games they missed
D) what RBs we have had to keep pass rush honest
E) how some of you think you know more than banks, Simms or GMs
Just answer. How with the exception of 3 other QBs who can also move the rest would get killed.
F) someone like Tua wouldn’t last two games with this shit OL.
G) why not name the active WR on the roster and how many catches they have never mind touchdowns
H) why we are near the leaders in drop passes
I) penalties on OL which put us in long to go situations.
J) the only pass play we have are slants or roll outs cause of pass rush
K) yup it’s all on Jones.
The oline looked terrible last year. And pretty decent this year with the exception of the rams game where they looked terrible
You have a tackle so that’s a start
You have a receiver who your QB doesn’t know how to use who was a 1000 yd guy and another high draft pick who looked explosive
Despite all this the most important position on the field still plays the same as when they had shep as their number one receiver accept throw s to him in the slot now and just doesn’t produce
Look if you think jones is the answer at qb and you’re just going to rebuild everything around him including coaches and front office then we living in alternate universe s
But we need to have our eyes wide open about what we have.
And the organization needs to be on the lookout for either a high-upside successor, or a veteran who might fall on the market who is a significant upgrade, should it happen.
We need to move on within 2 years. Sooner, if possible.
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The Giants are on the verge of a complete teardown and rebuild. The name of the game now is to use this season and next to accumulate as many draft picks and accelerate as many cap hits as possible. The 2022 team isn't going to be any good either.
The problem with your philsopshy is htta it's laughabel for a business and it's "employees."
Let's face it, you and Producer, and bw, and debaser don't give a shit whether the Giants win one game for the rest of the season. With you guys, the Giants might not even bother to play, is that right? Or you want theme to play but not only lose, but tank, right? .
DO you really think businesses are run that way? Do you really think players are going to give a fuck playing for a style that you wna tot see which is "tank?"
Because if you want to dump Jones for a draft pick, and you don't get your guy, you realize they are going to unbelievably suck and it will be so obvious you're tanking, right?
I don't mind if you invoke my handle, but it should be for things that I have said. And I don't think the players will tank.
Now would it bother me if this collection of players finished 4-13 vs 7-10 and we get better draft position. No. I would rather have better draft position until we find the right mix and a true franchise QB. I do not believe in this build whatsoever. But I'm not endorsing that the Giants play to lose.
I would add your business philosophy is sketchy at best. A strong argument can be made that the best route to greatness is near term suckiness to gain better draft picks. Businesses are generally concerned with long term greatness, and if the means to getting there is to take a short term hit, then it is a viable strategy.
I If the OL and receivers were good enough to get you into the Red Zone, they are good enough to score TD s with.
Just started watching football in the last few weeks? I guess you think lousy OLines and different types of rb's and wr's and tight ends are actually all the same?
Now that you've just started watching football, maybe the next few weeks you can get an understanding of shortfield vs open field etc.
It's as if you don't believe running with Henry near the goal line is any different than running Barkley (I'm not talking when Barkley can just leap).
You realize that there is differences in player personnel, right? With your comment about moving 50 yards vs red zone yards, you don't seem like you do.
I don't mind if you invoke my handle, but it should be for things that I have said. And I don't think the players will tank.
Now would it bother me if this collection of players finished 4-13 vs 7-10 and we get better draft position. No. I would rather have better draft position until we find the right mix and a true franchise QB. I do not believe in this build whatsoever. But I'm not endorsing that the Giants play to lose.
I would add your business philosophy is sketchy at best. A strong argument can be made that the best route to greatness is near term suckiness to gain better draft picks. Businesses are generally concerned with long term greatness, and if the means to getting there is to take a short term hit, then it is a viable strategy.
You have said since day 1 since I have argued with you that Tannehhill is not the guy., And that every year you'd be drafting a QB in round 1, did you not?
You said that Tannehill cannot win a super bowl, did you not? And as a result if you are drafting QB's every year in round 1, you are playing them instead of Tannehill, right?
SO ofc you would do the same with Jones. That's YOUR STYLE, is it not? Unless you want to amend it now? He could never stick on your team as you continually try to search for a QB, right? Because a guy like Tannehill is making a lot of money while you would keep trying rookie after rookie until you hit a home run, right?
That's tanking and it would be obvious, right? .
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literally above your comment I say that I am fine with Jones playing until we find someone, so how is that endorsing tanking?
I don't mind if you invoke my handle, but it should be for things that I have said. And I don't think the players will tank.
Now would it bother me if this collection of players finished 4-13 vs 7-10 and we get better draft position. No. I would rather have better draft position until we find the right mix and a true franchise QB. I do not believe in this build whatsoever. But I'm not endorsing that the Giants play to lose.
I would add your business philosophy is sketchy at best. A strong argument can be made that the best route to greatness is near term suckiness to gain better draft picks. Businesses are generally concerned with long term greatness, and if the means to getting there is to take a short term hit, then it is a viable strategy.
You have said since day 1 since I have argued with you that Tannehhill is not the guy., And that every year you'd be drafting a QB in round 1, did you not?
You said that Tannehill cannot win a super bowl, did you not? And as a result if you are drafting QB's every year in round 1, you are playing them instead of Tannehill, right?
SO ofc you would do the same with Jones. That's YOUR STYLE, is it not? Unless you want to amend it now? He could never stick on your team as you continually try to search for a QB, right? Because a guy like Tannehill is making a lot of money while you would keep trying rookie after rookie until you hit a home run, right?
That's tanking and it would be obvious, right? .
I think you are confusing my comments with somebody else, possibly, which is understandable.
I never say nobody can win a Super Bowl. Terrible QBs have won SBs and I am sure they will in the future. there is a certain amount of luck in all this. What I say is that bad QBs strongly reduce the probability you will win a SB. It is like the teams with elite QBs are playing in a different league, and they have many times the chances to win a SB than the lesser teams with poorer QBs. Exponentially higher chances.
I do not think Tannehill is an elite QB. You are right about that. I would not want him for the Giants. But he's not terrible. He is just outside the elite tier, imo. Somewhere 10-12. Good, but not good enough.
I am not hot for cycling through rookies to maximize the rookie contract and the clock of a rookie contract. I understand the logic, but it's not my preference for how to run the Giants. I do favor cycling through rookies to secure an elite talent to have as our QB for 15 years.
Those are my thoughts, for now, anyhow.
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I do not think Tannehill is an elite QB. You are right about that. I would not want him for the Giants. But he's not terrible. He is just outside the elite tier, imo. Somewhere 10-12. Good, but not good enough.
You did but it's not important I guess. So I'll drop it for now if you say so.
But in terms of Tannehill, do you think a 10-12 QB is a very good QB?
And you are okay with keeping Jones but but you wouldn't want a 10-12 QB? Becuase Jones is not 10-12, right?
Do you think Tennessee has been and is a successful team since Tannehill joined them?
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In comment 15429554 giantstock said:
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I do not think Tannehill is an elite QB. You are right about that. I would not want him for the Giants. But he's not terrible. He is just outside the elite tier, imo. Somewhere 10-12. Good, but not good enough.
You did but it's not important I guess. So I'll drop it for now if you say so.
But in terms of Tannehill, do you think a 10-12 QB is a very good QB?
And you are okay with keeping Jones but but you wouldn't want a 10-12 QB? Becuase Jones is not 10-12, right?
Do you think Tennessee has been and is a successful team since Tannehill joined them?
I have never said Tannehill is great or elite. And I would not prefer Tanny for the Giants. Do not insist I said this. I did not. I have never believed it. Tannehill is a limited QB on a conservative, running offense.
Your question makes no sense. I don't want Jones. I wish he wasn't our QB. But I understand the strategy of keeping him until we find a successor. I don't think this position is at all unclear and I'm not sure why you are mixing it up.
We are so desperate for a "franchise" QB that we will take any sign of competency as confirmation that DJ is the "one" despite objective statistics showing otherwise.
Ok. I really hope DJ proves me wrong. Go Big Blue.
@Patricia_Traina
Daniel Jones's toughness reminds me quite a bit of Phil Simms's toughness back in the day. Simms dealt with some early career injuries (though worse than what Jones has dealt with) and got beat up behind a shaky OL.
Patricia Traina
@Patricia_Traina
But when it came to taking a licking, Simms could take it like the best of them, much like how Jones takes it.
We are so desperate for a "franchise" QB that we will take any sign of competency as confirmation that DJ is the "one" despite objective statistics showing otherwise.
Ok. I really hope DJ proves me wrong. Go Big Blue.
The bar for a franchise QB has been lowered by many to “he isn’t part of the problem.” Jones played well on Sunday and helped us win. This and the New Orleans game were both very good games for him.
The problem is all the other games this year. The inconsistency. In year 3 we should be looking for more than flashes of talent. We should be looking for consistent performance week to week. That has not come yet.
Nobody is suggesting he should be winning every week. This is a crappy roster riddled with injuries. Much of that is due to our GM investing heavily in guys with injury histories. Some is just the NFL and everyone deals with that.
But what we should be seeing from a top 10 pick in year 3 is someone who gives us a fighting chance on every drive. A few “wow” plays. Someone appearing on Sy’s “dud’ list a little less often.
Nobody on here is truly rooting against Daniel Jones. He seems like a good guy. But wishing for something doesn’t make you a better fan. For many the “it” factor with this kid just isn’t there. It’s absolutely ok to hold that opinion and still be a Giant fan.
... and Doug Williams, Jeff Hostetler, Nick Foles, etc
When was the last time they said anything negative about any player -- let alone a Giant? Have they ever said "you can't win with this guy, I'd cut him and take the cap hit."
^^^
This is the actual answer on page 1 of this thread.
Whether it's Banks, Simms or ex-NFL players or GMs... it's pretty rare that they would publicly state that ANY young, starting QB is not the guy. And in this case, Banks (who is employed by the Giants) is certainly not going to say that Jones is not a franchise QB.
Now Banks may actually believe that Jones is a franchise QB, but given the circumstances, I don't know why anyone would take what he said as true conviction.
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this thread can only exist in a week after Giants win where DJ throws 200 yards and 1 TD, but not after a week Giants lose and DJ throws 3 INTs where the entire franchise needs to be overhauled from soup to nuts.
We are so desperate for a "franchise" QB that we will take any sign of competency as confirmation that DJ is the "one" despite objective statistics showing otherwise.
Ok. I really hope DJ proves me wrong. Go Big Blue.
The bar for a franchise QB has been lowered by many to “he isn’t part of the problem.” Jones played well on Sunday and helped us win. This and the New Orleans game were both very good games for him.
The problem is all the other games this year. The inconsistency. In year 3 we should be looking for more than flashes of talent. We should be looking for consistent performance week to week. That has not come yet.
Nobody is suggesting he should be winning every week. This is a crappy roster riddled with injuries. Much of that is due to our GM investing heavily in guys with injury histories. Some is just the NFL and everyone deals with that.
But what we should be seeing from a top 10 pick in year 3 is someone who gives us a fighting chance on every drive. A few “wow” plays. Someone appearing on Sy’s “dud’ list a little less often.
Nobody on here is truly rooting against Daniel Jones. He seems like a good guy. But wishing for something doesn’t make you a better fan. For many the “it” factor with this kid just isn’t there. It’s absolutely ok to hold that opinion and still be a Giant fan.
I thought Jones was very good against NO/WAS. I didn't think Sunday was some spectacular QB performance. He did a good job but I wouldn't call it brilliant or the best game of his career like some of the journalists are.
My main criticism of Jones has been his anemic TD production and the below-average offenses he's been apart of. I think the idea that you can have a franchise QB that posts the worst league-wide TD production is ridiculous. He's fixed a lot of last year's issues for sure.
I know others disagree, but I don't think he's the long-term solution. I look forward to seeing him with some guys back over the course of the rest of the season, though.
We are so desperate for a "franchise" QB that we will take any sign of competency as confirmation that DJ is the "one" despite objective statistics showing otherwise.
Ok. I really hope DJ proves me wrong. Go Big Blue.
Maybe a few posters meet that criteria but most fully realize he isn't a franchise altering QB. So really, who are you arguing against? I think with a competent OL and decently healthy group of skill position players he's in the mix to be a solid starter and part of a winning team + culture.
Most "defenses" of Jones seem pretty reasonable. And why they are met with such disdain is beyond me. Give me a viable alternative at QB and I'll listen. But if all i get back is trade for Watson or bring in a vet to push Jones then, well, might as well just save the time and not even post.
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In comment 15429129 Thunderstruck27 said:
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In comment 15429117 kdog77 said:
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and the offense still might not be very good. Those are not mutually exclusive statements. Jones played like a competent QB yesterday, but let's be honest the Defense won that game.
It does not do DJ a disservice to state that he has not earned the "franchise" QB status.
At some point we as fans need to stop asking on how the front office and coaching staff can surround Jones with better talent and better offensive scheme to make him look good, and start asking how can DJ make the rest of the team better? There a lot of good QBs that play with mediocre OL and no-name receivers who manage to put up big games in the NFL b/c the league is so pass happy. It would be great to see DJ get to a point by the end of the season where being "competent" isn't the bar for whether he is a franchise QB.
Define mediocre. Our Oline is the worst in the NFL. I don't even think it's an argument.
The Giants patchwork OL is pass protecting better than people realize. The pressure rate, QB hits and sack rate are near top of the NFL and suggest that Jones has enough time to read the D and throw: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/advanced.htm
Now the Giants can't run the ball effectively and Garrett has the WRs running stick routes far too often, but maybe Jones is playing to his potential and that potential is a "competent" QB. I am not sure that is enough.
Simply not true. The protection sucks and Jones is coping as good as you could hope for.
This is an interesting chart. My own view was that the OL was bottom ten but not quite bottom five.
However, this doesn't explain Jones' anemic TD production - nearly all those QBs clustered near Jones have superior touchdown production. Josh Allen is close by, for example. Even Tua has more than Jones and Miami can't wait to dump him.
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this thread can only exist in a week after Giants win where DJ throws 200 yards and 1 TD, but not after a week Giants lose and DJ throws 3 INTs where the entire franchise needs to be overhauled from soup to nuts.
We are so desperate for a "franchise" QB that we will take any sign of competency as confirmation that DJ is the "one" despite objective statistics showing otherwise.
Ok. I really hope DJ proves me wrong. Go Big Blue.
Maybe a few posters meet that criteria but most fully realize he isn't a franchise altering QB. So really, who are you arguing against? I think with a competent OL and decently healthy group of skill position players he's in the mix to be a solid starter and part of a winning team + culture.
Most "defenses" of Jones seem pretty reasonable. And why they are met with such disdain is beyond me. Give me a viable alternative at QB and I'll listen. But if all i get back is trade for Watson or bring in a vet to push Jones then, well, might as well just save the time and not even post.
I concur with this view completely. The only reason to bring in a vet is to provide training wheels for a rookie QB you draft. When that happens, then bring in a vet.
We all know Watson is not coming here, short of being fully cleared of any improprieties. Mara is not interested in his QB having that kind of sideshow come with him.
The offensive scheme is restrictive and it's painful to see posters blind to see it or just forgetting it ever happened.
The offensive scheme is restrictive and it's painful to see posters blind to see it or just forgetting it ever happened.
I mean even Bortles had some 4 and 5 TD games. Jones has 3 4+ TD games, but he also has more 0 td games than multiple TD games. That’s very hard to do in this era of the NFL.
He also had an improved line going in this year, but I personally think everything about how he's handled the pocket this year has improved. His only bad game was the post concussion game where we were thin at WR and the OL was beat up. He took a blindside strip sack from where Andrew Thomas usually is on the 1st or 2nd drive of the game, and was off the rest of the game..but he bounced back the following week.
I attribute some of his overall improvement to him finally having continuity in an offense, 2nd year in an offense helps alleviate a lot of the mental hurdles in year 1. Once tbe presnap reads come easily, focus can go on physical ability to make plays..which slowly builds confidence.
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In comment 15429556 Producer said:
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In comment 15429554 giantstock said:
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I do not think Tannehill is an elite QB. You are right about that. I would not want him for the Giants. But he's not terrible. He is just outside the elite tier, imo. Somewhere 10-12. Good, but not good enough.
You did but it's not important I guess. So I'll drop it for now if you say so.
But in terms of Tannehill, do you think a 10-12 QB is a very good QB?
And you are okay with keeping Jones but but you wouldn't want a 10-12 QB? Becuase Jones is not 10-12, right?
Do you think Tennessee has been and is a successful team since Tannehill joined them?
I have never said Tannehill is great or elite. And I would not prefer Tanny for the Giants. Do not insist I said this. I did not. I have never believed it. Tannehill is a limited QB on a conservative, running offense.
Your question makes no sense. I don't want Jones. I wish he wasn't our QB. But I understand the strategy of keeping him until we find a successor. I don't think this position is at all unclear and I'm not sure why you are mixing it up.
It seems you want to avoid my questions. You said Tannehhill was 10-12 - so where did you pick up I accused you of stating Tannehill was elite. Where are you coming uo with that from my posts?
I asked you if you think a QB that is 10-12 is very good? 'Very good" is not "elite." And you are okay with keeping a QB that is worse than 10-12?
And do you think Tannehhill has been a successful QB?
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this thread can only exist in a week after Giants win where DJ throws 200 yards and 1 TD, but not after a week Giants lose and DJ throws 3 INTs where the entire franchise needs to be overhauled from soup to nuts.
We are so desperate for a "franchise" QB that we will take any sign of competency as confirmation that DJ is the "one" despite objective statistics showing otherwise.
Ok. I really hope DJ proves me wrong. Go Big Blue.
The bar for a franchise QB has been lowered by many to “he isn’t part of the problem.” Jones played well on Sunday and helped us win. This and the New Orleans game were both very good games for him.
The problem is all the other games this year. The inconsistency. In year 3 we should be looking for more than flashes of talent. We should be looking for consistent performance week to week. That has not come yet.
The problem is posters like you look to do extreme exaggerations trying to make your point. To suggest he has had only one good game is absurd.
It just highlights the point that osme of you are nuts.
"All the other games" he hasn't performed well, eh? You mean New Orleans and Washington he was bad too?
I think some of you are so intent on not wanting DJ that you just bury your head in the sand with the rest of the offense. DJ is not elite. Sure get someone better - if you an. But making exaggerations as you have done is over-the-top and typical of many on here about him.
The offensive scheme is restrictive and it's painful to see posters blind to see it or just forgetting it ever happened.
It's painfully blind that some posters don't understand that his OLINE sucks, his top WR's are either out or last year completely sucked, his tight ends suck, and his top RB rarely plays, and Jones has bene banged up the last two years yet some posters remain blind to all of this and just want open up the offense.
People here seem to be more invested in Jones than the success of the Giants. It’s crazy.