He made this observation on the “Blue Rush” podcast yesterday, with Paul Schwartz.
Felt it was a moment where Daniel put the offense on his back and willed them to victory
Hesitate to post this as it will trigger another Jones debate, of which even I am tiring, and I participate in all of them.
But nice to hear Tynes say this.
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In comment 15429860 Mike in NY said:
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Allen has great receiving talent and a solid OL. Before they got Diggs he was not the same QB he is now.
How many pro bowls did Diggs make before going to Buffalo?
He did not have any, but he did have 2 1000+ yard seasons and was never below 720 yards in 5 seasons (and the lowest was his rookie year) and was a Top 100 player multiple times. I would argue that he was underrated because Julio Jones, Davante Adams, OBJ, and Michael Thomas got more hype in NFC.
Buffalo gave up a 1st, 5th, 6th and 4th rounder the following season for Diggs. That is a ton of draft capital. Diggs is a terrific WR and was before he went to Buffalo. And the Bills knew that. People actually still give a shit about Pro Bowls?
There is no sense debating with posters that insinuate Diggs wasn’t a great WR because he didn’t get voted to the freakin Pro Bowl…
You are limited by the personal groupings
If you have extra blockers, TEs, fullback, etc. your choice in play calling is not great.
Damning with faint praise.
He likely isn't. But so what? The solution isn't obvious, no matter how much you make it out to be.
Weak 2022 QB class. No FA's worth pursuing. Watson I guess is available but comes with enormous risk both with asset allocation, legal trouble, and knowingly supporting a degenerate so that's not happening.
That leaves what, Rodgers and Wilson? Did I miss any other barely realistic options?
Buffalo gave up a 1st, 5th, 6th and 4th rounder the following season for Diggs. That is a ton of draft capital. Diggs is a terrific WR and was before he went to Buffalo. And the Bills knew that. People actually still give a shit about Pro Bowls?
There is no sense debating with posters that insinuate Diggs wasn’t a great WR because he didn’t get voted to the freakin Pro Bowl…
Stephon Diggs was fantastic in Minnesota, but they decided to pay Adam Theilen instead, and had drafted Justin Jefferson. I had forgotten BUFF gave up that much, but it's worked out pretty well so far.
And he's been heavy on turnovers worthy plays for a while now, years back. In fact, it's a stat heavily induced by luck. Jones's Hail Mary, for instance. What's the percentage of that pass being intercepted? The last stat I saw on it was, over the course of ten years, less than 10% were completed. Which is higher than I thought, however this shows it had a very low chance of being completed. But some QB's don't care, and Jones is one of them. You'll have Russell Wilson dink it down to pad more yards which does no one any good.
Still funny the selection of posters on this board have such a tough time when things don't fit their narrative or shared by former players or coaches.
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Schwartz saying he's the least of their concerns is similar to people here repeatedly saying he isn't the problem. What no one is saying is that he is the long term solution to getting the Giants to Super Bowl contention.
Damning with faint praise.
He likely isn't. But so what? The solution isn't obvious, no matter how much you make it out to be.
Weak 2022 QB class. No FA's worth pursuing. Watson I guess is available but comes with enormous risk both with asset allocation, legal trouble, and knowingly supporting a degenerate so that's not happening.
That leaves what, Rodgers and Wilson? Did I miss any other barely realistic options?
Why not trade Jones for a pick to improve the 2022 draft? What's the downside?
Really - cause everyone with eyes would understand he's improving on all of the issues he showed in years 1 and 2.
And he's been heavy on turnovers worthy plays for a while now, years back. In fact, it's a stat heavily induced by luck. Jones's Hail Mary, for instance. What's the percentage of that pass being intercepted? The last stat I saw on it was, over the course of ten years, less than 10% were completed. Which is higher than I thought, however this shows it had a very low chance of being completed. But some QB's don't care, and Jones is one of them. You'll have Russell Wilson dink it down to pad more yards which does no one any good.
Still funny the selection of posters on this board have such a tough time when things don't fit their narrative or shared by former players or coaches.
Even the staunchest Jones supporters can’t say this was his best game. Just because Tynes kicked a few big FGS doesn’t make him a good analyst.
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In comment 15429835 Go Terps said:
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Schwartz saying he's the least of their concerns is similar to people here repeatedly saying he isn't the problem. What no one is saying is that he is the long term solution to getting the Giants to Super Bowl contention.
Damning with faint praise.
He likely isn't. But so what? The solution isn't obvious, no matter how much you make it out to be.
Weak 2022 QB class. No FA's worth pursuing. Watson I guess is available but comes with enormous risk both with asset allocation, legal trouble, and knowingly supporting a degenerate so that's not happening.
That leaves what, Rodgers and Wilson? Did I miss any other barely realistic options?
Why not trade Jones for a pick to improve the 2022 draft? What's the downside?
Improve towards what? If the QB class proves to be weak what are we moving up for and who will our QB be if we don't take one?
So we've got an extra pick to make the rest of the roster better, but year 3 of Judge (presumably) has an even bigger ? at QB - doesn't make much sense.
New gm/hc come in and they are cool punting year 1 with a complete unknown at QB?
Doesn't make much sense. I need to see an actual plan because its really just ideas and what ifs, which is a big no no I thought.
Have to put it together these last 10 games. Go 7-3.
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In comment 15429835 Go Terps said:
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Schwartz saying he's the least of their concerns is similar to people here repeatedly saying he isn't the problem. What no one is saying is that he is the long term solution to getting the Giants to Super Bowl contention.
Damning with faint praise.
He likely isn't. But so what? The solution isn't obvious, no matter how much you make it out to be.
Weak 2022 QB class. No FA's worth pursuing. Watson I guess is available but comes with enormous risk both with asset allocation, legal trouble, and knowingly supporting a degenerate so that's not happening.
That leaves what, Rodgers and Wilson? Did I miss any other barely realistic options?
Why not trade Jones for a pick to improve the 2022 draft? What's the downside?
Because NFL teams don’t give up on the season 7 games in. NFL teams don’t think like fans sitting on their couches with nothing to lose, coming up with asinine trade ideas and thinking they have all the answers because they are doing well playing their Madden franchise mode. These guys are playing and coaching for their jobs.
You continue to confuse your fantasy world with reality. This isn’t a damn video game.
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In comment 15429835 Go Terps said:
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Schwartz saying he's the least of their concerns is similar to people here repeatedly saying he isn't the problem. What no one is saying is that he is the long term solution to getting the Giants to Super Bowl contention.
Damning with faint praise.
He likely isn't. But so what? The solution isn't obvious, no matter how much you make it out to be.
Weak 2022 QB class. No FA's worth pursuing. Watson I guess is available but comes with enormous risk both with asset allocation, legal trouble, and knowingly supporting a degenerate so that's not happening.
That leaves what, Rodgers and Wilson? Did I miss any other barely realistic options?
Why not trade Jones for a pick to improve the 2022 draft? What's the downside?
At this point of the season, Jones is unlikely to get a pick high enough to improve the 2022 Draft. We are better off waiting until the offseason when a team that finds itself needing a QB but too far down to draft one in Round 1 might be willing to trade for Jones. The QB crop looks weak in 2022, especially if you are looking for a starter Week 1 of 2022 season. There are not better options in Free Agency. Even if the Giants do not take the 5th year option on Jones they still have him under contract for next year.
And he's been heavy on turnovers worthy plays for a while now, years back. In fact, it's a stat heavily induced by luck. Jones's Hail Mary, for instance. What's the percentage of that pass being intercepted? The last stat I saw on it was, over the course of ten years, less than 10% were completed. Which is higher than I thought, however this shows it had a very low chance of being completed. But some QB's don't care, and Jones is one of them. You'll have Russell Wilson dink it down to pad more yards which does no one any good.
Still funny the selection of posters on this board have such a tough time when things don't fit their narrative or shared by former players or coaches.
Mahomes is also on pace for 45 TD's. And "heavy on TO-worthy play"? WTF does that even mean? He's never had more than 12 INT's in a full season, and that was in his first season as a starter. This will be his first double-digit INT season since then.
Maybe the NFL should put an asterisk next to Hail Mary INT's, I don't disagree that it is somewhat unfair, but to act like Jones is the only one with the courage to throw an end of half Hail Mary is just so absurd on its face. Russell Wilson absolutely does throw them, I know because he threw one against us last year.
For the fans that like Jones and think he is “the guy”, that obviously isn’t a concern.
But, the Giants need to tread lightly here. If Jones is the guy, shouldn’t he be able to carry the team to the playoffs THIS YEAR.
Look at guys like Burrow, Herbert, Lamar, Kyler & Josh Allen - all those QB’s are leading their team to the playoffs. And don’t talk about OL with Burrow, his is putrid.
That is the issue.
We can see which side you are on here. I'm not sure why you would just assume THIS is the year he should be taking them to the playoffs. Does the rest of the team not matter? If we take your advice and don't talk about OL, then should we not talk about receivers? Or a run game? DJ is our leading rusher with 200+ yards. Joe Mixon has 500+. Our leading receiver is Toney with 300+ yards. Chase has 700 and he isn't currently injured. Which part of the Giants has shown steady improvment over the 3 years that would lead you to the assumption that THIS is the year Jones HAS to take us to the playoffs? Our Defense?
You’ve never watched a Seahawks game huh? Yea Russ will dink and dunk some but there’s probably not many QBs who have as many successful big plays down the field as Russ.
We're rolling with an Andy Dalton now. What's the difference? We can't score 19 PPG with Dalton or some other FA?
I also don't buy the "weak QB class" argument. Corral and Willis both have a lot of talent...more certainly than Jones has when we drafted him 6th overall.
I believe we traded for the 2022 draft pick in the event Jones didn't show he was the guy in 2021. That was the headline this past spring: Jones gets 2021 to prove he's the guy. Is Jones showing he's the guy?
Really - cause everyone with eyes would understand he's improving on all of the issues he showed in years 1 and 2.
jones is inconsistent from week to week. jones has five passing touchdowns on the year. FIVE. he's cut down the league-worst fumbling he showed his rookie year, sure. but being more conservative with the football appears to have come at the expense of passing touchdowns.
these are the concerns most fans have with jones. inability to score touchdowns (league-worst in the redzone) and inconsistency from week to week.
"improving" would seem to be an overstatement. he's not fumbling as much. he's also averaging less that one passing touchdown per game, which is pathetic.
dude, the coaching staff that was here when jones was a rookie was fired, you know. under the current coaching staff, he has thrown 16 touchdowns in the last 21 games. pathetic numbers.
so are you saying that the current coaching staff is to blame for jones's abject lack of point production, despite your claiming that jones has improved in all areas since years 1 and 2? (his redzone production certainly hasn't improved)
Not suggesting there will several (or any) elite QBs out there but that doesn't mean there might not be several upgradable solutions available to choose from. Nobody wants the Giants to force a bad QB pick but also don't want to let another better option pass them by like they have in several of the last few draft years either. How likely are elite guys going to be more available in 2023...who the hell knows?
Jones not being a franchise QB but still holding down the job in 2022 might also be a viable path. It allows them to put their 2022 picks and free agent dollars to use fixing a roster this moron GM put together. But to just default your opinion to DJ in 2022 because you "can't see" a better option today sounds just as moronic.
Like I said the other day. If the Giants turn it around and go 10-7, I'll shut up.
But when they finish 6-11 or worse, blow it all up including Jones.
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In comment 15429718 Mike from Ohio said:
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In comment 15429708 UConn4523 said:
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if you are really just concentrating on the snippet from Tynes. I don't see the point in dissecting his comments, I didn't hear him say it and that could lead to a different interpretation than how its read.
Agree. It was a silly comment. Jones best game as a pro was not a 200 yard, 1TD game where the offense only needed a FG to win. Just this year the NO game was better. Just about every game he has played against Washington has been better.
The reason I am pointing this out is because the hysterical Jones hyperbole is not just coming from GoTerps and Producer on the negative side. It is also coming from guys like the OP and others on the positive side.
It would be awesome if we could tune out those who are emotionally invested in being right and discuss him with some objectivity. Threads like this and saying he “willed the team to victory” just distract from real discussusion.
Emotionally invested in being right hahaha
I only hope I m right because it would be good for the Giants.
Don’t be so presumptuous as to think you know me or that I care in the least about being proven right on a message board.
You being right about Jones and the Giants signing him to a long term deal would be good for the Giants. Terps being right about Jones and the Giants letting him walk would be good for the Giants. What can't happen is for Terps to be right about about Jones but the Giants sign him to a long term deal. That is disaster for the Giants.
And you describe other people's motives for posting what they post about Jones all the time, so no you are not exempt from the same.
Well if you put me in the same category as the well known critics of Jones on this board, who have more than once highjacked a thread to make their pt. ; it s time for me to bow out of further discussion on the matter, not interested in being in that classification
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if the QBs available aren’t highly thought of? Are we drafting one anyway and rolling with an Andy Dalton to start the season? If we don’t draft one who’s our week 1 starter in 2022?
We're rolling with an Andy Dalton now. What's the difference? We can't score 19 PPG with Dalton or some other FA?
I also don't buy the "weak QB class" argument. Corral and Willis both have a lot of talent...more certainly than Jones has when we drafted him 6th overall.
I believe we traded for the 2022 draft pick in the event Jones didn't show he was the guy in 2021. That was the headline this past spring: Jones gets 2021 to prove he's the guy. Is Jones showing he's the guy?
As of now neither guy should be taken #1 overall - the overwhelming consensus is that EDGE and OL will dominate the top 5 picks. So we shouldn't need to move up to get one of the two QB's, especially if we stink and pick around the top 5. It just so happens we need an EDGE rusher and OL so that's likely where we should be spending our 1st round picks.
My point on Dalton is that year 3 of Judge likely isn't signing up for a vet who stinks with no room to improve while the rookie sits, unless of course you think the rookie should just play week 1 which is impossible to know right now.
What if he can't do both?
We get no turnover, no risk Daniel, that doesn't score TDs
or
We get the eyes always downfield, make big plays Daniel, but he turns the ball over more than once a game.
Besides, the draft isn't about picking for need. Filling holes is a big reason they are where they are right now...
As for the 2022 QB class, there are some intriguing prospects, actually - Willis, Corral, and Pickett. Pickett is having a great year for Pitt. And there are some who think very highly of Carson Strong. So I'm not ready to say there aren't solutions in '22 that could replace Jones...
5 plays / 27 yards / punt
9 plays / 39 yards / turnover on downs
6 plays / 32 yards / FG
5 plays / 5 yards / punt
HALF
3 plays / -12 yards / punt
3 plays / 6 yards / punt
11 plays / 75 yards / TD
6 plays / 19 yards / FG
10 plays / 32 yards /FG
So there was the one long drive (11 plays / 75 yards) that resulted in the TD. Full kudos to Jones on that one.
The next longest drive in terms of yards was 39. The other scoring drives were 32, 19 and 32 yards.
I don't see an offense largely controlling field position. I see a team capitalizing on excellent field position.
I'm very much inclined not to participate in this endless discussion, but just to be accurate, the 5 yard net drive was the one where the offense (yes, including the QB) netted 5 yards of the 45 yards accrued due to plays called back for penalties, yes?
As for the 2022 QB class, there are some intriguing prospects, actually - Willis, Corral, and Pickett. Pickett is having a great year for Pitt. And there are some who think very highly of Carson Strong. So I'm not ready to say there aren't solutions in '22 that could replace Jones...
Jones athleticism is bit special. He may not have moves like Jackson, but he can perform in and out of the pocket (when he has one), has good speed and can give the OC some different options to formulate various game plans depending on the opponent.
I like a few of those college QBs. I don't think they are projected as elite or slam dunk franchise QBs as we sit here in Oct. But they certainly can turn into viable upgrades at QB for the NY Giants by next summer.
As for the 2022 QB class, there are some intriguing prospects, actually - Willis, Corral, and Pickett. Pickett is having a great year for Pitt. And there are some who think very highly of Carson Strong. So I'm not ready to say there aren't solutions in '22 that could replace Jones...
I think because of Lamar Jackson and Kyler Murray, Jones' ability as a runner is underrated. Part of that is on him early on with the fumbles but he seems to have rounded that corner and his feet are a real weapon. I'm under the impression that with that alone and an even average OL and average skill players he can be very effective running this offense. I respect his arm as well. For him its been about processing the game and its been an uphill battle with a shitty injured OL and shitty injured skill players being the norm.
Which leads me to the next guy - whoever we draft in theory with a first 1st round pick is going right into that same scenario and unless he gets better luck with a healthy team, will likely struggle just the same. Just look at Wilson - big arm, can move, made highlight play after highlight play at BYU and can't do a fucking thing in the NFL. Does he suck or do the Jets sucks? Pretty sure everyone would have taken him over Jones before the year started.
Jones threw TDs before Garrett arrived
The Chiefs have 9 TDs from the 3 yard line (8 from 2 yards). 5 are passing TDs. Watch their set up and you generally have no idea what they are going to do.
The Giants are not a good running team yet they always put the run heavy formation close. They make things too easy for defenses
My arguments against Jones have always been based on the same ideas:
1. His issues are going to be very hard to correct at the NFL level
2. His issues now are the same as those he had at Duke, where he never showed himself to be an exceptional player
3. He simply does not get the ball in the end zone enough
4. His running ability is the best part of his game, and the Giants are never going to be willing to feature that
5. He is never going to be worth a second contract
Sigh....
1) That simply isn't true
2) He had crap to work with at Duke, and had crap to work with during first 2 years. Even this year, the OL is still crap, and though he has talent at the skill positions, they've been injured most of the time.
3) True - see #2 as to why
4) Yep, his running ability is excellent. While I would like to see him utilized more I, for one, am glad they don't "feature" it, as that will get him killed. We've seen what happens to QB who run too much. It hasn't happened to your boy Jackson - yet. But if he keeps running 12-15 times a game, it will.
5) According to you, NO QB is worth a second contract. Wait, I take that back, I think you recently said Jackson would be worth it. But you backpedal/change your mind so much, I can't keep track...
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In comment 15429809 joeinpa said:
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In comment 15429718 Mike from Ohio said:
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In comment 15429708 UConn4523 said:
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if you are really just concentrating on the snippet from Tynes. I don't see the point in dissecting his comments, I didn't hear him say it and that could lead to a different interpretation than how its read.
Agree. It was a silly comment. Jones best game as a pro was not a 200 yard, 1TD game where the offense only needed a FG to win. Just this year the NO game was better. Just about every game he has played against Washington has been better.
The reason I am pointing this out is because the hysterical Jones hyperbole is not just coming from GoTerps and Producer on the negative side. It is also coming from guys like the OP and others on the positive side.
It would be awesome if we could tune out those who are emotionally invested in being right and discuss him with some objectivity. Threads like this and saying he “willed the team to victory” just distract from real discussusion.
Emotionally invested in being right hahaha
I only hope I m right because it would be good for the Giants.
Don’t be so presumptuous as to think you know me or that I care in the least about being proven right on a message board.
You being right about Jones and the Giants signing him to a long term deal would be good for the Giants. Terps being right about Jones and the Giants letting him walk would be good for the Giants. What can't happen is for Terps to be right about about Jones but the Giants sign him to a long term deal. That is disaster for the Giants.
And you describe other people's motives for posting what they post about Jones all the time, so no you are not exempt from the same.
Well if you put me in the same category as the well known critics of Jones on this board, who have more than once highjacked a thread to make their pt. ; it s time for me to bow out of further discussion on the matter, not interested in being in that classification
Just reread my response. To be clear I was referring to the classification of being a distraction, post not meant to be condescending to Producer or other posters on the other side of the debate on Jones, I have engaged them often and enjoyed it.
I want him to succeed. I'm rooting for him. But if this is the finshed product he's never going to be a top 10 NFL QB. He is also playing behind a bottom 5 OL and that might be generous. It's tough to throw TD passes when the OL can't run or pass block.
I not big on QB stats becasue they're somewhat dependent on the players around the QB. Jones is ranked 16-21 in most stats but I'm will to bet that none of the QB's ranked ahead of him would trade OL's with him. At this point right now after 7 games, based on the 2022 draft prospects and the ammount of holes on the Giants roster my vote would be to keep him but I'm not giving him a 2nd contract yet if ever.
good add
2) He had crap to work with at Duke, and had crap to work with during first 2 years. Even this year, the OL is still crap, and though he has talent at the skill positions, they've been injured most of the time.
3) True - see #2 as to why
This is what is so tiring. EVERYTHING is always everybody else's fault. He had shit to play with at Duke. He's had shit to play with in NY. His coach's suck. His OL sucks. His WR's suck.
Hey, how about maybe he just isn't that good? Don't you step back and at least entertain that possibility? The reality is that he was a mediocre QB at Duke, and he's been a mediocre QB for most of his time here. So we're led to believe that the GM who has picked all of that crap to play with Jones, using high draft picks and ample FA dollars to boot, was wrong about all of them, but somehow was right about Jones?
But if Jones isn’t the guy holding on to him for too long leads to at best mediocrity.
Cardinals were 8-8 in Murray’s second year. Lamar was 19-3 his first two years. Bills were 10-6 Allen’s second year. Browns were a couple games away from a Super Bowl appearance in Bakers third year. Bengals went from 2-14 when they drafted Burrow to 5-2 his second year. Chargers went 7-9 Herberts rookie year. It’s not as rare as you think it is if you have the right guy and the team is well put together. Any of those guys with the exception of probably Baker on the team last year and the Giants are probably 9-7 and in the playoffs.
The giants had two things going for them on Sunday. Jones and the defense.
Haha yeah, that's what Wilson does on a routine basis -- just dinks a short pass off to pad his stats. You'd sure have a tough time finding examples of Wilson completing insane deep throws with perfection!
As for the 2022 QB class, there are some intriguing prospects, actually - Willis, Corral, and Pickett. Pickett is having a great year for Pitt. And there are some who think very highly of Carson Strong. So I'm not ready to say there aren't solutions in '22 that could replace Jones...
We might even be able to take a QB in day 2 who's more promising than Jones is. Is it crazy to say that someone like Jake Haener is just as accomplished of a collegiate QB as Jones was?
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You'll have Russell Wilson dink it down to pad more yards which does no one any good.
Haha yeah, that's what Wilson does on a routine basis -- just dinks a short pass off to pad his stats. You'd sure have a tough time finding examples of Wilson completing insane deep throws with perfection!
You can't make it up with some of these people. You get the sense they don't even know what a football looks like.
OR, take a look at what the Bucs were before Brady or what the Hawks are after Wilson or what the Cards were before Murray. Those teams were or are off the NFL map.
More and more I am thinking Judge might not be the problem. You give this guy a stud QB, and maybe Jones grows more and more into one, (just relax this isn't a debate) or maybe he doesn't, but Judge gets his teams to play hard and seems to have a pulse on this team. A dynamic presence on offense covers up a lot of warts.
We might have the HC and we might have the QB but the QB needs to shine this chicken shit offense up some more. Sorry DJ, but that's the breaks of being an NFL QB. HE's been ok. He was just fine last Sunday. Keep it up. Keep running and stealing yardage and don't turn the ball over. You do those two things with that accuracy of his and he would be just fine.
Jones' stat line was modest, but considering the context which includes lack of surrounding cast and a pretty good Carolina defense, that stat line does not reflect how good Jones played.
I agree with this post 100%. I thought Jones played very well, and was a key element in the win, without question. I also think that "willed his team to victory" is unnecessarily dramatic, especially considering that the defensive unit deserves plenty of credit for the win as well.
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You'll have Russell Wilson dink it down to pad more yards which does no one any good.
Haha yeah, that's what Wilson does on a routine basis -- just dinks a short pass off to pad his stats. You'd sure have a tough time finding examples of Wilson completing insane deep throws with perfection!
Well he’s half right. Wilson does complete a short amount of throws but then he beats with 2-3 bombs a game.
It’s called sett8ng the defense up and Wilson is as good as anyone… Wilson might be the best deep ball thrower in the game.
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My arguments against Jones have always been based on the same ideas:
1. His issues are going to be very hard to correct at the NFL level
2. His issues now are the same as those he had at Duke, where he never showed himself to be an exceptional player
3. He simply does not get the ball in the end zone enough
4. His running ability is the best part of his game, and the Giants are never going to be willing to feature that
5. He is never going to be worth a second contract
Sigh....
1) That simply isn't true
2) He had crap to work with at Duke, and had crap to work with during first 2 years. Even this year, the OL is still crap, and though he has talent at the skill positions, they've been injured most of the time.
3) True - see #2 as to why
4) Yep, his running ability is excellent. While I would like to see him utilized more I, for one, am glad they don't "feature" it, as that will get him killed. We've seen what happens to QB who run too much. It hasn't happened to your boy Jackson - yet. But if he keeps running 12-15 times a game, it will.
5) According to you, NO QB is worth a second contract. Wait, I take that back, I think you recently said Jackson would be worth it. But you backpedal/change your mind so much, I can't keep track...
DJ is on track for 12 passing TDs this year, after 11 passing TDs last year. Even with his rookie year included (which may be an outlier at this point), he has 40 TDs in 32 starts, which works out to 21 passing TDs per season (in a 17-game schedule). In the current pass-happy NFL, that's really not good enough.
That's not to say that he can't improve. It's just pointing out that he hasn't been good enough thus far, even with external factors included.