He made this observation on the “Blue Rush” podcast yesterday, with Paul Schwartz.
Felt it was a moment where Daniel put the offense on his back and willed them to victory
Hesitate to post this as it will trigger another Jones debate, of which even I am tiring, and I participate in all of them.
But nice to hear Tynes say this.
Jones' stat line was modest, but considering the context which includes lack of surrounding cast and a pretty good Carolina defense, that stat line does not reflect how good Jones played.
We ll see. I know I ve really have annoyed some posters, maybe because I defend Daniel on almost every thread about him.
Engram - everyone hates him and thinks he should be cut for multiple years now
Pettis - has 52 career catches since being drafted in 2018, 10 of which came in the last 2 weeks
John Ross - former 1st round bust who was cut by Cincinnati
Daniel Jones - big time production
Booker, Rudolph, Johnson
Name a QB who has the privilege of throwing to that group of players.
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looking forward to all the new material that gets posted in response!
We ll see. I know I ve really have annoyed some posters, maybe because I defend Daniel on almost every thread about him.
That's the funny thing, because I don't really defend Jones, i'm completely fine with an upgrade if there is one that makes sense. But i do push back on two things - 1. there is no clear, realistic upgrade and 2. what he's working with is absolute shit and can't be ignored.
Engram - everyone hates him and thinks he should be cut for multiple years now
Pettis - has 52 career catches since being drafted in 2018, 10 of which came in the last 2 weeks
John Ross - former 1st round bust who was cut by Cincinnati
Daniel Jones - big time production
Booker, Rudolph, Johnson
Name a QB who has the privilege of throwing to that group of players.
All while having the worst OLine in the NFL. And it's been that way with both the skill players AND the OL since he started playing.
Sunday's game is an exact, clear and indisputable example of why Jones is not the problem. I watched guys come through our line cleanly multiple times. I watched Jones have to make a split decision as WH and NS decided to double team a guy why the stunting player came free right up the gut (between RG and C) while still losing the double team battle on the outside leaving Jones nowhere to go. I watched later NS and WH both choose other players to block allowing the end/tackle to go right between RG and RT untouched..
With our shit show of an offensive line and our Depleted corps of weapons:
SB, SS, KG, KT all out and Slayton just off being injured and EE both limited injury wise and limited ,well , because he is EE, we had to play a turnover free game and that is what happened.
This season needs to play out before decisions are made on anyone -except DG. He needs to be gone as he is a dinosaur with a less than proven record of sustained success as the head guy.
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In comment 15429629 UConn4523 said:
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looking forward to all the new material that gets posted in response!
We ll see. I know I ve really have annoyed some posters, maybe because I defend Daniel on almost every thread about him.
That's the funny thing, because I don't really defend Jones, i'm completely fine with an upgrade if there is one that makes sense. But i do push back on two things - 1. there is no clear, realistic upgrade and 2. what he's working with is absolute shit and can't be ignored.
Some people find it very easy to ignore (the absolute shit he's been working with). I've been finding it easier to ignore posts from those people. Allows me to read DJ threads much faster and more pleasantly!
The equation doesn't add up.
The equation doesn't add up.
I have also seen it said that Judge is the victim of a bad roster, yet that does not apply to the qb.
The equation doesn't add up.
Killing it here.
The defense limited the Panthers to 3 points. The defense scored two of their own (after the offense failed on goal to go and came away with no points). The defense then gave the offense 4 possessions late starting deep in Panther territory that resulted in the majority of points. 7 of those points came from a one-play drive where Jones handed the ball to Booker who ran it in from 19 yards out.
Why is it fair to say Jones put the team on his back, rather than saying the defense put the team on its back?
Asking for a friend.
That’s just absurd. Why does everything have to be so extreme. He played a good game. Period.
The defense limited the Panthers to 3 points. The defense scored two of their own (after the offense failed on goal to go and came away with no points). The defense then gave the offense 4 possessions late starting deep in Panther territory that resulted in the majority of points. 7 of those points came from a one-play drive where Jones handed the ball to Booker who ran it in from 19 yards out.
Why is it fair to say Jones put the team on his back, rather than saying the defense put the team on its back?
Asking for a friend.
The defense did what they did...finally. Jones did what he has done almost the entire year. He uses his athleticism and skills to give the Giants a chance. He is getting little help with his top 3 WR's out and an OL that in no way resembles what the Giants had coming into the season.
This game was first and foremost about the defense and their dominance. Secondly it was about how bad Sam Darnold was. Third it was about our offense being productive with a skeleton crew.
I think Jones is good but the gameplan reflected the current state of the rest of the roster.
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In comment 15429629 UConn4523 said:
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looking forward to all the new material that gets posted in response!
We ll see. I know I ve really have annoyed some posters, maybe because I defend Daniel on almost every thread about him.
That's the funny thing, because I don't really defend Jones, i'm completely fine with an upgrade if there is one that makes sense. But i do push back on two things - 1. there is no clear, realistic upgrade and 2. what he's working with is absolute shit and can't be ignored.
If the Giants could have Josh Allen or Herbert instead of Jones, hard to say you don’t do that
But I agree where is the upgrade. Also, players develop at different rates, I don’t think Daniel is done growing.
Plus I love rooting for him
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but never heard a coherent answer.
The defense limited the Panthers to 3 points. The defense scored two of their own (after the offense failed on goal to go and came away with no points). The defense then gave the offense 4 possessions late starting deep in Panther territory that resulted in the majority of points. 7 of those points came from a one-play drive where Jones handed the ball to Booker who ran it in from 19 yards out.
Why is it fair to say Jones put the team on his back, rather than saying the defense put the team on its back?
Asking for a friend.
The defense did what they did...finally. Jones did what he has done almost the entire year. He uses his athleticism and skills to give the Giants a chance. He is getting little help with his top 3 WR's out and an OL that in no way resembles what the Giants had coming into the season.
So you think the comment about Jones is fair - thta he carried the team (including the defense) to the win?
Again, nobody is arguing that he didn’t play well despite having a JV roster.
This game was first and foremost about the defense and their dominance. Secondly it was about how bad Sam Darnold was. Third it was about our offense being productive with a skeleton crew.
We allowed 3 points because Jones was getting us enough first downs that even when the drive didn't end up in points, Carolina faced a long field which they could not handle. What we did not have was receiving the ball inside our 20 yard line and promptly going 3 and out with regularity which then gives the defense no time to catch their breath and the opponent has good field position because even the best punters net between 45-47 yards on punts so if you are punting from your 25 that means the other team is starting at their 30 yard line whereas an extra 10 yards could push them inside their 20.
And not for nothing, but the sentiment in the OP that Jones "willed them to victory" when the opposing team scored 3 points all day is stupid...
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He had a good game. But if he didn’t play and Glennon needed to, do you think the Giants lose that game? Given how the defense played I think maybe that is a 15-3 win instead of a 25-3 win with Glennon at QB.
This game was first and foremost about the defense and their dominance. Secondly it was about how bad Sam Darnold was. Third it was about our offense being productive with a skeleton crew.
We allowed 3 points because Jones was getting us enough first downs that even when the drive didn't end up in points, Carolina faced a long field which they could not handle. What we did not have was receiving the ball inside our 20 yard line and promptly going 3 and out with regularity which then gives the defense no time to catch their breath and the opponent has good field position because even the best punters net between 45-47 yards on punts so if you are punting from your 25 that means the other team is starting at their 30 yard line whereas an extra 10 yards could push them inside their 20.
Carolina had five consecutive drives that resulted in one first down. That has nothing to do with having to drive the length of the field because of our offense.
This is a really disingenuous argument.
I laughed. Don't worry it will be nothing we haven't heard before.
The defense limited the Panthers to 3 points. The defense scored two of their own (after the offense failed on goal to go and came away with no points). The defense then gave the offense 4 possessions late starting deep in Panther territory that resulted in the majority of points. 7 of those points came from a one-play drive where Jones handed the ball to Booker who ran it in from 19 yards out.
Why is it fair to say Jones put the team on his back, rather than saying the defense put the team on its back?
Asking for a friend.
As the game played out, field position was huge. In the first half, the offense failed to capitalize on drives by coming away with the points they could have, but their moving the ball was very important in terms of field position. You can say things like 2 pts were on defense for safety, but the offense also plays a role in helping to get Carolina backed up there in the first place. That's complimentary football I mentioned.
What we saw from Jones specifically, is that he was asked to do a lot to compensate for the deficiencies on offense. To counter issues with Oline he was asked to roll out, throw the ball on move and change launch position. He was asked to do more than you would want with his legs to help keep the chains moving and give a measure of running game. He executed on this game plan extremely well and was a huge factor in the win. The 2nd half in particular was nearly flawless.
Agree. It was a silly comment. Jones best game as a pro was not a 200 yard, 1TD game where the offense only needed a FG to win. Just this year the NO game was better. Just about every game he has played against Washington has been better.
The reason I am pointing this out is because the hysterical Jones hyperbole is not just coming from GoTerps and Producer on the negative side. It is also coming from guys like the OP and others on the positive side.
It would be awesome if we could tune out those who are emotionally invested in being right and discuss him with some objectivity. Threads like this and saying he “willed the team to victory” just distract from real discussusion.
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He had a good game. But if he didn’t play and Glennon needed to, do you think the Giants lose that game? Given how the defense played I think maybe that is a 15-3 win instead of a 25-3 win with Glennon at QB.
This game was first and foremost about the defense and their dominance. Secondly it was about how bad Sam Darnold was. Third it was about our offense being productive with a skeleton crew.
We allowed 3 points because Jones was getting us enough first downs that even when the drive didn't end up in points.
This is an absurd statement.
In Jones’ defense, Sy’s write up documents how lousy the OL’s pass protection was. Hernandez and Solder were just awful. But Jones is still not putting up points.
I just don’t think we learned anything at all about Jones on Sunday.
What I a, asking is this…did he put the team on his back and carry the, to victory? I understand complementary football. An individual does not carry a team to victory is you play complementary football.
Again…not saying Jones did not contribute to the win, that he sucks, or that I wish we could fire him into the sun. I am asking about the comments made by Tynes that the OP posted, and the OP’s view that Jones willed the tea, to victory.
Can’t we all agree that there is a fair degree of hyperbole in all of that?
Because what people are referring to is complimentary football. Offense and Defense. NYG offense is without it's top 4 playmakers and
Who are these top 4 playmakers? They seem to be adjusted depending on who is injured or not.
If Shep is injured he is the playmaker that is out, that they cannot possibly win without. If it is Toney ; who played 2 games ? is it him.
Can you really call Barkley a playmaker any more? He has had one good game in like 4 years now?
In this very thread, posters are dramatizing that Jones "willed them to victory" when the other team scores 3 points, and had to roll out and throw on the run to do so. As if this isn't in the job description for NFL QB.
On the other side, being obtuse and downplaying he has to play behind an awful OL with terrible Tackles, very little quality at WR and TE and a pedestrian backup RB (when he knew Barkley was coming back from injury). That moron General Manager is the biggest hurdle to Jones actually succeeding as the NYG QB. Although the response seems to be criticize Jones' critics and not Dave Gettleman from many of you....
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In comment 15429695 Mike from Ohio said:
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He had a good game. But if he didn’t play and Glennon needed to, do you think the Giants lose that game? Given how the defense played I think maybe that is a 15-3 win instead of a 25-3 win with Glennon at QB.
This game was first and foremost about the defense and their dominance. Secondly it was about how bad Sam Darnold was. Third it was about our offense being productive with a skeleton crew.
We allowed 3 points because Jones was getting us enough first downs that even when the drive didn't end up in points, Carolina faced a long field which they could not handle. What we did not have was receiving the ball inside our 20 yard line and promptly going 3 and out with regularity which then gives the defense no time to catch their breath and the opponent has good field position because even the best punters net between 45-47 yards on punts so if you are punting from your 25 that means the other team is starting at their 30 yard line whereas an extra 10 yards could push them inside their 20.
Carolina had five consecutive drives that resulted in one first down. That has nothing to do with having to drive the length of the field because of our offense.
This is a really disingenuous argument.
Yes length of the field matters. Unless it is a huge play, one first down when you are backed up inside the 15 is less likely to result in points or putting us in bad position than a drive starting at the 35.
As a QB and leader on this team I love Daniel Jones. I have wanted this guy to succeed and still want him to succeed. If the Giants do end up moving on from him I hope he lands in a good situation elsewhere and succeeds. I have no doubt he bleeds blue and is doing everything he can to help this team win.
But with what I have seen from him to this point in his career, I would not be in favor of extending his contract and paying him like one of the top QBs in the league. I don't think that will help this team become a perennial playoff contender.
In Jones’ defense, Sy’s write up documents how lousy the OL’s pass protection was. Hernandez and Solder were just awful. But Jones is still not putting up points.
I just don’t think we learned anything at all about Jones on Sunday.
That’s the problem in a nutshell regarding DJ. You just don’t know what exactly you have, so let’s hope he puts together enough quality games by season end and continues to grow and win consistently. If not then we have to make the best business decision for this team moving forward.
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if you are really just concentrating on the snippet from Tynes. I don't see the point in dissecting his comments, I didn't hear him say it and that could lead to a different interpretation than how its read.
Agree. It was a silly comment. Jones best game as a pro was not a 200 yard, 1TD game where the offense only needed a FG to win. Just this year the NO game was better. Just about every game he has played against Washington has been better.
The reason I am pointing this out is because the hysterical Jones hyperbole is not just coming from GoTerps and Producer on the negative side. It is also coming from guys like the OP and others on the positive side.
It would be awesome if we could tune out those who are emotionally invested in being right and discuss him with some objectivity. Threads like this and saying he “willed the team to victory” just distract from real discussusion.
My arguments against Jones have always been based on the same ideas:
1. His issues are going to be very hard to correct at the NFL level
2. His issues now are the same as those he had at Duke, where he never showed himself to be an exceptional player
3. He simply does not get the ball in the end zone enough
4. His running ability is the best part of his game, and the Giants are never going to be willing to feature that
5. He is never going to be worth a second contract
I continue to think he's a backup level NFL quarterback, and expect that's how he'll end up after his time with the Giants ends either after this season or next.
That tough reception alone he made, taking yet another blow to the head, and still holding onto the ball was a perfect example. And the key play on the TD drive that really put the Giants in charge of the game...
Engram - everyone hates him and thinks he should be cut for multiple years now
Pettis - has 52 career catches since being drafted in 2018, 10 of which came in the last 2 weeks
John Ross - former 1st round bust who was cut by Cincinnati
Daniel Jones - big time production
Booker, Rudolph, Johnson
Name a QB who has the privilege of throwing to that group of players.
How dare you! He should be lifting that motley crew to no less than a Super Bowl title or he’s not the guy!
5 yards
33 yards
-12 yards
6 yards
75 yards for TD
Then the wheels fell off of Carolina late in the third and the Giants got 4 short fields. Where’s this idea coming from that we moved the ball so well that it carried the defense?
5 plays / 27 yards / punt
9 plays / 39 yards / turnover on downs
6 plays / 32 yards / FG
5 plays / 5 yards / punt
HALF
3 plays / -12 yards / punt
3 plays / 6 yards / punt
11 plays / 75 yards / TD
6 plays / 19 yards / FG
10 plays / 32 yards /FG
So there was the one long drive (11 plays / 75 yards) that resulted in the TD. Full kudos to Jones on that one.
The next longest drive in terms of yards was 39. The other scoring drives were 32, 19 and 32 yards.
I don't see an offense largely controlling field position. I see a team capitalizing on excellent field position.
The equation doesn't add up.
A great QB can overcome a terrible OL, just look at Patrick Mahomes
Wait…
The idea that he carried the team comes from the belief that when there was nothing going on around him he stepped up and made a play that changed the game. Not only as a QB making a play that not a lot of wide receivers could make, but also the toughness he displayed (one again) in going to get the ball with a defender and a certain big hit bearing down on him.
NYG had scored 5 points before that play and 20 after it. It had both a tangible and intangible impact on the game.
That tough reception alone he made, taking yet another blow to the head, and still holding onto the ball was a perfect example. And the key play on the TD drive that really put the Giants in charge of the game...
Well said, and that’s why his teammates all seem to love him. Nobody questions his heart
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that Gettelman has done a terrible job with the OL (and roster in general) but somehow the QB is supposed to overcome that anyway, and on a weekly basis while also dealing with half the starters (or more) out for the majority of the weeks this year.
The equation doesn't add up.
A great QB can overcome a terrible OL, just look at Patrick Mahomes
Wait…
You wanna compare what Mahommes has done this year to Jones.
The idea that he carried the team comes from the belief that when there was nothing going on around him he stepped up and made a play that changed the game. Not only as a QB making a play that not a lot of wide receivers could make, but also the toughness he displayed (one again) in going to get the ball with a defender and a certain big hit bearing down on him.
NYG had scored 5 points before that play and 20 after it. It had both a tangible and intangible impact on the game.
And the defense absolutely shutting down Darnold too.
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that Gettelman has done a terrible job with the OL (and roster in general) but somehow the QB is supposed to overcome that anyway, and on a weekly basis while also dealing with half the starters (or more) out for the majority of the weeks this year.
The equation doesn't add up.
A great QB can overcome a terrible OL, just look at Patrick Mahomes
Wait…
Not saying Jones should be expected to do what Mahomes is doing but he’s still on pace for 4700 yards and 41 tds despite their bad line play. He’s just throwing a lot of interceptions right now but the Chiefs are still scoring points.
Probably at Washington this year and at Philly last year as well. Totally let down by Engram and Slayton in game winning moments.
But yeah, things aren't looking good in KC and a lot of it is because of the OL. Go figure.
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and his first game as a starter in TB, I think are his best three performances. Can't go wrong with any of those three.
Probably at Washington this year and at Philly last year as well. Totally let down by Engram and Slayton in game winning moments.
Yep. Those two games would round out the top 5.
But yeah, things aren't looking good in KC and a lot of it is because of the OL. Go figure.
I would argue KC defense is more problematic than their OL. We should score a ton of points against them.
The idea that he carried the team comes from the belief that when there was nothing going on around him he stepped up and made a play that changed the game. Not only as a QB making a play that not a lot of wide receivers could make, but also the toughness he displayed (one again) in going to get the ball with a defender and a certain big hit bearing down on him.
NYG had scored 5 points before that play and 20 after it. It had both a tangible and intangible impact on the game.
How did Jones’ catch impact the Panthers into having drives of -1, -16, and 1 yard? That was all the defense and that happens with or without Jones making the catch.
Nobody is saying Jones was bad but this is being turned into some mythical performance.
But yeah, things aren't looking good in KC and a lot of it is because of the OL. Go figure.
It’s more their defense. They’re still scoring points was documented in the other thread. They’ll have 41 passing TDS, Giants are on pace for 12.
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he isn't comparing Jones to Mahomes, not sure why its the go to response. He's clearly showing that OL matters even to the elite QB's out there.
But yeah, things aren't looking good in KC and a lot of it is because of the OL. Go figure.
I would argue KC defense is more problematic than their OL. We should score a ton of points against them.
What other top QBs has the same flaws we disqualify Jones for?
With regard to Jones not getting passing TDs
I see this argument and do not agree
Jones has had TDs taken away due to drops and penalties.
But the major reason for his diminished passing tds is related to play calling and opportunity.
Until last week when in the Redzone (inside the 20) Jones had only thrown 22 passes, inside the 10 he had only thrown the ball 7 times, 2 times in the endzone.
You can not throw TDs if the play called is to run the ball.
When in the redzone Garrett becomes run centric, he does not believe in throwing the ball, and he just does not call for passes in the endzone.
What reinforces my contention that it is redzone play calling that limits Jones opportunity to score. Look at the Giants success on two point conversions. The play calling is far more diverse and Jones has scored on every occasion (3) including a pass to Shepard.
This past week when in the redzone the Giants actually threw the ball twice for positive gains. Once to the one and another a TD. But again no throws into the endzone.
You can not throw TDs if the play called is to run the ball.
You can if you audible out of a poor run call to a better pass option which is done quite often. Now if Jones doesnt have the ability to do that from judge or garrett, that an indictment of him.
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In comment 15429767 UConn4523 said:
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he isn't comparing Jones to Mahomes, not sure why its the go to response. He's clearly showing that OL matters even to the elite QB's out there.
But yeah, things aren't looking good in KC and a lot of it is because of the OL. Go figure.
I would argue KC defense is more problematic than their OL. We should score a ton of points against them.
When was the last time scored a ton of points?
They scored 31 points last week and 42 points just two weeks before that.
Is this a trick question?
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if you are really just concentrating on the snippet from Tynes. I don't see the point in dissecting his comments, I didn't hear him say it and that could lead to a different interpretation than how its read.
Agree. It was a silly comment. Jones best game as a pro was not a 200 yard, 1TD game where the offense only needed a FG to win. Just this year the NO game was better. Just about every game he has played against Washington has been better.
The reason I am pointing this out is because the hysterical Jones hyperbole is not just coming from GoTerps and Producer on the negative side. It is also coming from guys like the OP and others on the positive side.
It would be awesome if we could tune out those who are emotionally invested in being right and discuss him with some objectivity. Threads like this and saying he “willed the team to victory” just distract from real discussusion.
Emotionally invested in being right hahaha
I only hope I m right because it would be good for the Giants.
Don’t be so presumptuous as to think you know me or that I care in the least about being proven right on a message board.
This game was first and foremost about the defense and their dominance. Secondly it was about how bad Sam Darnold was. Third it was about our offense being productive with a skeleton crew.
Wow! You managed to come up with a hypothetical to undercut a compliment to Jones.
Well done.
For the fans that like Jones and think he is “the guy”, that obviously isn’t a concern.
But, the Giants need to tread lightly here. If Jones is the guy, shouldn’t he be able to carry the team to the playoffs THIS YEAR.
Look at guys like Burrow, Herbert, Lamar, Kyler & Josh Allen - all those QB’s are leading their team to the playoffs. And don’t talk about OL with Burrow, his is putrid.
That is the issue.
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he isn't comparing Jones to Mahomes, not sure why its the go to response. He's clearly showing that OL matters even to the elite QB's out there.
But yeah, things aren't looking good in KC and a lot of it is because of the OL. Go figure.
I would argue KC defense is more problematic than their OL. We should score a ton of points against them.
Agree KC has to figure out some issues but it is not their OL as was incorrectly mentioned above.
Noted this on another thread the KC offense has been producing yards and scoring points at a pretty high level. Their OL has also allowed a fairly low pressure % and putting up decent running number despite having to use a backup RB tandem.
KC has issues with their offensive playmakers turning the ball over at one of the highest levels in the league and their defense isn't stopping many team either. These are what they need to correct, not the OL.
But go figure...
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In comment 15429668 UConn4523 said:
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that Gettelman has done a terrible job with the OL (and roster in general) but somehow the QB is supposed to overcome that anyway, and on a weekly basis while also dealing with half the starters (or more) out for the majority of the weeks this year.
The equation doesn't add up.
A great QB can overcome a terrible OL, just look at Patrick Mahomes
Wait…
You wanna compare what Mahommes has done this year to Jones.
I was being snippy in my comment, obviously:)
nobody would compare Jones to Mahomes. Only pointing out that even one of the elite QBs in football still struggles to overcome OL problems
The original topic is Tynes comment, to which I generally agree…Jones delivered a tough, clutch performance. Wasn’t pretty, but they won largely bc of him
Now, let’s see if he can do it more than once every few games…
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In comment 15429708 UConn4523 said:
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if you are really just concentrating on the snippet from Tynes. I don't see the point in dissecting his comments, I didn't hear him say it and that could lead to a different interpretation than how its read.
Agree. It was a silly comment. Jones best game as a pro was not a 200 yard, 1TD game where the offense only needed a FG to win. Just this year the NO game was better. Just about every game he has played against Washington has been better.
The reason I am pointing this out is because the hysterical Jones hyperbole is not just coming from GoTerps and Producer on the negative side. It is also coming from guys like the OP and others on the positive side.
It would be awesome if we could tune out those who are emotionally invested in being right and discuss him with some objectivity. Threads like this and saying he “willed the team to victory” just distract from real discussusion.
Emotionally invested in being right hahaha
I only hope I m right because it would be good for the Giants.
Don’t be so presumptuous as to think you know me or that I care in the least about being proven right on a message board.
You being right about Jones and the Giants signing him to a long term deal would be good for the Giants. Terps being right about Jones and the Giants letting him walk would be good for the Giants. What can't happen is for Terps to be right about about Jones but the Giants sign him to a long term deal. That is disaster for the Giants.
And you describe other people's motives for posting what they post about Jones all the time, so no you are not exempt from the same.
I think Paul Schwartz summed up the Giants biggest problems and Jones perfectly today, but I'll still hold off for a few months on the last sentence:
On the list of what ails the Giants most of all: 1. Offensive line. 2. Offensive line. 3. Pass rush. 4. Current and future health of the offensive playmakers. 5. Tight end.
Every NFL outpost either has one or is searching for its franchise quarterback and yet there is no widespread consensus as to exactly what it takes to be one of these.
There is an eye-of-the-beholder feel to all this, akin to Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart back in 1964, commenting on a case involving a threshold test for obscenity.
“Perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so’’ Stewart wrote, revealing his difficulty in creating a definition of hardcore pornography, “but I know it when I see it.’’
We know a franchise quarterback when we see him.
Is this the vision in front of us, wearing No. 8, in blue, one day removed from throwing, scrambling and pass-catching the Giants to a rare victory? If anyone can bang the table and uncategorically state “Daniel Jones is a franchise quarterback’’ they are either remarkably prescient, admittedly biased or else related to the 24-year-old from Charlotte, N.C.
It is safe to say the Giants feel better about Jones now, seven games into what is destined to be another losing record, than they did at the end of last season. It is safe to say Jones, by virtue of his play on the field, his rock-solid demeanor and considerable athletic gifts, has earned the right to be the Giants starting quarterback in 2022 — unless something goes haywire in the final 10 games.
Daniel Jones should be the least of the Giants concerns - ( New Window )
What I am saying is that the offenses ability to sustain drives allowed defense to rest and also forced Carolina into less desirable field position where they had to do more passing which is their weakness due to Darnold's lack of accuracy and their OL looking worse than the Giants'.
In Jones’ defense, Sy’s write up documents how lousy the OL’s pass protection was. Hernandez and Solder were just awful. But Jones is still not putting up points.
I just don’t think we learned anything at all about Jones on Sunday.
I think we are learning.
If the Giants could actually move out people on the OL inside the red zone, and had a competently designed red zone offense, Jones would be be putting points on the board. Like Sunday....the Giants/Jones left points on the field.
What we are learning is he's not elite. But he is becoming a pretty good NFL QB. As the team gets better, so will he esp with experience.
So the question becomes (and more is to play out this year), do we go with Jones and try to surround him with talent or just try to get that elite type QB (Murray, Jackson, etc.) who can function when things around them break down completely (well, more than others do).
Damning with faint praise.
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Good post.
In Jones’ defense, Sy’s write up documents how lousy the OL’s pass protection was. Hernandez and Solder were just awful. But Jones is still not putting up points.
I just don’t think we learned anything at all about Jones on Sunday.
I think we are learning.
If the Giants could actually move out people on the OL inside the red zone, and had a competently designed red zone offense, Jones would be be putting points on the board. Like Sunday....the Giants/Jones left points on the field.
What we are learning is he's not elite. But he is becoming a pretty good NFL QB. As the team gets better, so will he esp with experience.
So the question becomes (and more is to play out this year), do we go with Jones and try to surround him with talent or just try to get that elite type QB (Murray, Jackson, etc.) who can function when things around them break down completely (well, more than others do).
What are we paying Jones? Minnesota is in QB hell because they overpaid Cousins for an extended period of time so they can't upgrade. If Jones is paid about 20-25th starting QB money then you take it, if he is paid Top 10-12 starting QB money I look elsewhere.
Damning with faint praise.
I can count on one hand and have fingers left over the number of QB's in the NFL who can single handedly win games with little talent around them. Rodgers and Brady, that's it.
Right now, the OL is still sub standard and while we have good pieces around him on offense, it's still not cohesive due to injuries and IMO, scheme.
A new GM and a new OC are paramount for 2022.
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Schwartz saying he's the least of their concerns is similar to people here repeatedly saying he isn't the problem. What no one is saying is that he is the long term solution to getting the Giants to Super Bowl contention.
Damning with faint praise.
I can count on one hand and have fingers left over the number of QB's in the NFL who can single handedly win games with little talent around them. Rodgers and Brady, that's it.
Mike - we saw Brady in New England struggle his last year. Brady is unreal, but he needs help around him to make it go.
Murray, Jackson, Allen, Rodgers.......those are the guys who either can get out of trouble or just (in Rodger's case) flick his wrist and make just an incredible throw. And he can still move.
Outside of those guys, a QB needs talent around him.
What I a, asking is this…did he put the team on his back and carry the, to victory? I understand complementary football. An individual does not carry a team to victory is you play complementary football.
Again…not saying Jones did not contribute to the win, that he sucks, or that I wish we could fire him into the sun. I am asking about the comments made by Tynes that the OP posted, and the OP’s view that Jones willed the tea, to victory.
Can’t we all agree that there is a fair degree of hyperbole in all of that?
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In comment 15429835 Go Terps said:
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Schwartz saying he's the least of their concerns is similar to people here repeatedly saying he isn't the problem. What no one is saying is that he is the long term solution to getting the Giants to Super Bowl contention.
Damning with faint praise.
I can count on one hand and have fingers left over the number of QB's in the NFL who can single handedly win games with little talent around them. Rodgers and Brady, that's it.
Mike - we saw Brady in New England struggle his last year. Brady is unreal, but he needs help around him to make it go.
Murray, Jackson, Allen, Rodgers.......those are the guys who either can get out of trouble or just (in Rodger's case) flick his wrist and make just an incredible throw. And he can still move.
Outside of those guys, a QB needs talent around him.
Murray has never been to the playoffs. Jackson has struggled when he is facing playoff caliber defenses who can keep him in the pocket. He has made progress in that area, but I would like to see more. Allen has great receiving talent and a solid OL. Before they got Diggs he was not the same QB he is now.
Are the talented players around good Qbs talented or are they good because the QB makes them better?
Are the bad QBs with no talent surrounded with no talent or are they not good enough to raise the level of the players around them?
Deep thinking at its finest.
I am not talking about pipe dreams, I am talking about QBs that are available ?
The only player who I could see as an upgrade is Watson but I do not see the Giants taking on a player who is embroiled in litigation that could result in his suspension.
As for next years draft there are some interesting prospects but there is no Lawrence, Burrow, Hebert, Mahomes, Murray, or Allen. There are a lot of question marks and no QB that I believe can be as good as Jones.
Even if there was a great QB available that QB could never reach his potential unless the supporting cast were improved.
If the Giants use their draft capital to obtain a QB they do that at the expense of filling other holes.
Drafting a new QB will set the Giants rebuild back another 2-3 years. Look at the teams with rookie QBs
What have Jaguars, Jets, Bears, 49ers, done this year ?
Patriots are in the best position but they have a good team to support Jones.
Allen has great receiving talent and a solid OL. Before they got Diggs he was not the same QB he is now.
How many pro bowls did Diggs make before going to Buffalo?
Jones led the best drive of the day, 75 yds and a TD, to make it 12-3. From that point on, they got the ball at their own 46 (19 yds and a FG); at CAR's 44 (32 yds and a FG); at CAR's 19 (19 yds and a TD). So after that one good drive, they scored 13 points off of a whopping 70 yards of offense.
As I said, given the circumstances, Jones played well. He didn't turn the ball over, and that 75-yard TD drive was the turning point of the game. But if this was the best game of his career, that doesn't say what many of his most fervent supporters think it does.
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In comment 15429835 Go Terps said:
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Schwartz saying he's the least of their concerns is similar to people here repeatedly saying he isn't the problem. What no one is saying is that he is the long term solution to getting the Giants to Super Bowl contention.
Damning with faint praise.
I can count on one hand and have fingers left over the number of QB's in the NFL who can single handedly win games with little talent around them. Rodgers and Brady, that's it.
Mike - we saw Brady in New England struggle his last year. Brady is unreal, but he needs help around him to make it go.
Murray, Jackson, Allen, Rodgers.......those are the guys who either can get out of trouble or just (in Rodger's case) flick his wrist and make just an incredible throw. And he can still move.
Outside of those guys, a QB needs talent around him.
Hit send too soon. My response was to GoTerps saying that Jones is not a QB who can singlehandedly make the Giants Super Bowl contenders. What I am saying is that the number who can singlehandedly do that is less than 10% of current NFL starting QB's. Therefore by his logic 90% of teams should be looking for new QB's.
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In comment 15429842 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 15429835 Go Terps said:
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Schwartz saying he's the least of their concerns is similar to people here repeatedly saying he isn't the problem. What no one is saying is that he is the long term solution to getting the Giants to Super Bowl contention.
Damning with faint praise.
I can count on one hand and have fingers left over the number of QB's in the NFL who can single handedly win games with little talent around them. Rodgers and Brady, that's it.
Mike - we saw Brady in New England struggle his last year. Brady is unreal, but he needs help around him to make it go.
Murray, Jackson, Allen, Rodgers.......those are the guys who either can get out of trouble or just (in Rodger's case) flick his wrist and make just an incredible throw. And he can still move.
Outside of those guys, a QB needs talent around him.
Murray has never been to the playoffs. Jackson has struggled when he is facing playoff caliber defenses who can keep him in the pocket. He has made progress in that area, but I would like to see more. Allen has great receiving talent and a solid OL. Before they got Diggs he was not the same QB he is now.
Mike - good points.
But you have to admit, Murray looks the part and makes some incredible plays where other QBs would be dead in their tracks.
Jackson - ok, he's not winning big in the playoffs (yet anyway), but c'mon - the guy is incredible.
Allen - yep, Buffalo has done a great job of surrounding him with talent. But like Murray, he makes some incredible individual plays that other QBs aren't making. I said on another thread sometimes he looks like the kid in Babe Ruth playing with Little Leaguers.
But to your point, you NEED help around your QB for him to function.
Yeah, Jones needs it more than those guys. He's probably not going to be an "elite" QB but more than just a functional QB.
SO again, should we be drafting 2-3 QBs per draft (as someone said on here) to get a hit on an incredible talent, or try to build an NFL team around someone who is most likely going to be pretty good.
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Allen has great receiving talent and a solid OL. Before they got Diggs he was not the same QB he is now.
How many pro bowls did Diggs make before going to Buffalo?
He did not have any, but he did have 2 1000+ yard seasons and was never below 720 yards in 5 seasons (and the lowest was his rookie year) and was a Top 100 player multiple times. I would argue that he was underrated because Julio Jones, Davante Adams, OBJ, and Michael Thomas got more hype in NFC.
Last week, to me he showed guts and toughness. Ran the ball up the middle on options. Caught a pass and took a hit. Made some plays with scrambles in the pocket and dumping it off. It wasn't his best game (that's WFT and NO). But it was the type of game you need from your leader and the type of games an NFL team needs to win.
The issue will if he doesn't play well next week, everyone will be on him again. QB is not linear, and despite this being his third year, the surrounding cast dictates a lot with DJ.
Keep playing, stay healthy - those are the two most important things for him right now.
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In comment 15429846 BillKo said:
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In comment 15429842 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 15429835 Go Terps said:
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Schwartz saying he's the least of their concerns is similar to people here repeatedly saying he isn't the problem. What no one is saying is that he is the long term solution to getting the Giants to Super Bowl contention.
Damning with faint praise.
I can count on one hand and have fingers left over the number of QB's in the NFL who can single handedly win games with little talent around them. Rodgers and Brady, that's it.
Mike - we saw Brady in New England struggle his last year. Brady is unreal, but he needs help around him to make it go.
Murray, Jackson, Allen, Rodgers.......those are the guys who either can get out of trouble or just (in Rodger's case) flick his wrist and make just an incredible throw. And he can still move.
Outside of those guys, a QB needs talent around him.
Murray has never been to the playoffs. Jackson has struggled when he is facing playoff caliber defenses who can keep him in the pocket. He has made progress in that area, but I would like to see more. Allen has great receiving talent and a solid OL. Before they got Diggs he was not the same QB he is now.
Mike - good points.
But you have to admit, Murray looks the part and makes some incredible plays where other QBs would be dead in their tracks.
Jackson - ok, he's not winning big in the playoffs (yet anyway), but c'mon - the guy is incredible.
Allen - yep, Buffalo has done a great job of surrounding him with talent. But like Murray, he makes some incredible individual plays that other QBs aren't making. I said on another thread sometimes he looks like the kid in Babe Ruth playing with Little Leaguers.
But to your point, you NEED help around your QB for him to function.
Yeah, Jones needs it more than those guys. He's probably not going to be an "elite" QB but more than just a functional QB.
SO again, should we be drafting 2-3 QBs per draft (as someone said on here) to get a hit on an incredible talent, or try to build an NFL team around someone who is most likely going to be pretty good.
If we are paying Jones commensurate with the type of QB he is I would draft a QB if there is someone we see as a good bet to be a better option, but we should not force something and end up with Blake Bortles. If Jones wants to be paid more than the type of QB he is then you cut bait and draft a new QB no questions asked.
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In comment 15429860 Mike in NY said:
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Allen has great receiving talent and a solid OL. Before they got Diggs he was not the same QB he is now.
How many pro bowls did Diggs make before going to Buffalo?
He did not have any, but he did have 2 1000+ yard seasons and was never below 720 yards in 5 seasons (and the lowest was his rookie year) and was a Top 100 player multiple times. I would argue that he was underrated because Julio Jones, Davante Adams, OBJ, and Michael Thomas got more hype in NFC.
Buffalo gave up a 1st, 5th, 6th and 4th rounder the following season for Diggs. That is a ton of draft capital. Diggs is a terrific WR and was before he went to Buffalo. And the Bills knew that. People actually still give a shit about Pro Bowls?
There is no sense debating with posters that insinuate Diggs wasn’t a great WR because he didn’t get voted to the freakin Pro Bowl…
You are limited by the personal groupings
If you have extra blockers, TEs, fullback, etc. your choice in play calling is not great.
Damning with faint praise.
He likely isn't. But so what? The solution isn't obvious, no matter how much you make it out to be.
Weak 2022 QB class. No FA's worth pursuing. Watson I guess is available but comes with enormous risk both with asset allocation, legal trouble, and knowingly supporting a degenerate so that's not happening.
That leaves what, Rodgers and Wilson? Did I miss any other barely realistic options?
Buffalo gave up a 1st, 5th, 6th and 4th rounder the following season for Diggs. That is a ton of draft capital. Diggs is a terrific WR and was before he went to Buffalo. And the Bills knew that. People actually still give a shit about Pro Bowls?
There is no sense debating with posters that insinuate Diggs wasn’t a great WR because he didn’t get voted to the freakin Pro Bowl…
Stephon Diggs was fantastic in Minnesota, but they decided to pay Adam Theilen instead, and had drafted Justin Jefferson. I had forgotten BUFF gave up that much, but it's worked out pretty well so far.
And he's been heavy on turnovers worthy plays for a while now, years back. In fact, it's a stat heavily induced by luck. Jones's Hail Mary, for instance. What's the percentage of that pass being intercepted? The last stat I saw on it was, over the course of ten years, less than 10% were completed. Which is higher than I thought, however this shows it had a very low chance of being completed. But some QB's don't care, and Jones is one of them. You'll have Russell Wilson dink it down to pad more yards which does no one any good.
Still funny the selection of posters on this board have such a tough time when things don't fit their narrative or shared by former players or coaches.
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Schwartz saying he's the least of their concerns is similar to people here repeatedly saying he isn't the problem. What no one is saying is that he is the long term solution to getting the Giants to Super Bowl contention.
Damning with faint praise.
He likely isn't. But so what? The solution isn't obvious, no matter how much you make it out to be.
Weak 2022 QB class. No FA's worth pursuing. Watson I guess is available but comes with enormous risk both with asset allocation, legal trouble, and knowingly supporting a degenerate so that's not happening.
That leaves what, Rodgers and Wilson? Did I miss any other barely realistic options?
Why not trade Jones for a pick to improve the 2022 draft? What's the downside?
Really - cause everyone with eyes would understand he's improving on all of the issues he showed in years 1 and 2.
And he's been heavy on turnovers worthy plays for a while now, years back. In fact, it's a stat heavily induced by luck. Jones's Hail Mary, for instance. What's the percentage of that pass being intercepted? The last stat I saw on it was, over the course of ten years, less than 10% were completed. Which is higher than I thought, however this shows it had a very low chance of being completed. But some QB's don't care, and Jones is one of them. You'll have Russell Wilson dink it down to pad more yards which does no one any good.
Still funny the selection of posters on this board have such a tough time when things don't fit their narrative or shared by former players or coaches.
Even the staunchest Jones supporters can’t say this was his best game. Just because Tynes kicked a few big FGS doesn’t make him a good analyst.
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In comment 15429835 Go Terps said:
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Schwartz saying he's the least of their concerns is similar to people here repeatedly saying he isn't the problem. What no one is saying is that he is the long term solution to getting the Giants to Super Bowl contention.
Damning with faint praise.
He likely isn't. But so what? The solution isn't obvious, no matter how much you make it out to be.
Weak 2022 QB class. No FA's worth pursuing. Watson I guess is available but comes with enormous risk both with asset allocation, legal trouble, and knowingly supporting a degenerate so that's not happening.
That leaves what, Rodgers and Wilson? Did I miss any other barely realistic options?
Why not trade Jones for a pick to improve the 2022 draft? What's the downside?
Improve towards what? If the QB class proves to be weak what are we moving up for and who will our QB be if we don't take one?
So we've got an extra pick to make the rest of the roster better, but year 3 of Judge (presumably) has an even bigger ? at QB - doesn't make much sense.
New gm/hc come in and they are cool punting year 1 with a complete unknown at QB?
Doesn't make much sense. I need to see an actual plan because its really just ideas and what ifs, which is a big no no I thought.
Have to put it together these last 10 games. Go 7-3.
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In comment 15429835 Go Terps said:
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Schwartz saying he's the least of their concerns is similar to people here repeatedly saying he isn't the problem. What no one is saying is that he is the long term solution to getting the Giants to Super Bowl contention.
Damning with faint praise.
He likely isn't. But so what? The solution isn't obvious, no matter how much you make it out to be.
Weak 2022 QB class. No FA's worth pursuing. Watson I guess is available but comes with enormous risk both with asset allocation, legal trouble, and knowingly supporting a degenerate so that's not happening.
That leaves what, Rodgers and Wilson? Did I miss any other barely realistic options?
Why not trade Jones for a pick to improve the 2022 draft? What's the downside?
Because NFL teams don’t give up on the season 7 games in. NFL teams don’t think like fans sitting on their couches with nothing to lose, coming up with asinine trade ideas and thinking they have all the answers because they are doing well playing their Madden franchise mode. These guys are playing and coaching for their jobs.
You continue to confuse your fantasy world with reality. This isn’t a damn video game.
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In comment 15429835 Go Terps said:
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Schwartz saying he's the least of their concerns is similar to people here repeatedly saying he isn't the problem. What no one is saying is that he is the long term solution to getting the Giants to Super Bowl contention.
Damning with faint praise.
He likely isn't. But so what? The solution isn't obvious, no matter how much you make it out to be.
Weak 2022 QB class. No FA's worth pursuing. Watson I guess is available but comes with enormous risk both with asset allocation, legal trouble, and knowingly supporting a degenerate so that's not happening.
That leaves what, Rodgers and Wilson? Did I miss any other barely realistic options?
Why not trade Jones for a pick to improve the 2022 draft? What's the downside?
At this point of the season, Jones is unlikely to get a pick high enough to improve the 2022 Draft. We are better off waiting until the offseason when a team that finds itself needing a QB but too far down to draft one in Round 1 might be willing to trade for Jones. The QB crop looks weak in 2022, especially if you are looking for a starter Week 1 of 2022 season. There are not better options in Free Agency. Even if the Giants do not take the 5th year option on Jones they still have him under contract for next year.
And he's been heavy on turnovers worthy plays for a while now, years back. In fact, it's a stat heavily induced by luck. Jones's Hail Mary, for instance. What's the percentage of that pass being intercepted? The last stat I saw on it was, over the course of ten years, less than 10% were completed. Which is higher than I thought, however this shows it had a very low chance of being completed. But some QB's don't care, and Jones is one of them. You'll have Russell Wilson dink it down to pad more yards which does no one any good.
Still funny the selection of posters on this board have such a tough time when things don't fit their narrative or shared by former players or coaches.
Mahomes is also on pace for 45 TD's. And "heavy on TO-worthy play"? WTF does that even mean? He's never had more than 12 INT's in a full season, and that was in his first season as a starter. This will be his first double-digit INT season since then.
Maybe the NFL should put an asterisk next to Hail Mary INT's, I don't disagree that it is somewhat unfair, but to act like Jones is the only one with the courage to throw an end of half Hail Mary is just so absurd on its face. Russell Wilson absolutely does throw them, I know because he threw one against us last year.
For the fans that like Jones and think he is “the guy”, that obviously isn’t a concern.
But, the Giants need to tread lightly here. If Jones is the guy, shouldn’t he be able to carry the team to the playoffs THIS YEAR.
Look at guys like Burrow, Herbert, Lamar, Kyler & Josh Allen - all those QB’s are leading their team to the playoffs. And don’t talk about OL with Burrow, his is putrid.
That is the issue.
We can see which side you are on here. I'm not sure why you would just assume THIS is the year he should be taking them to the playoffs. Does the rest of the team not matter? If we take your advice and don't talk about OL, then should we not talk about receivers? Or a run game? DJ is our leading rusher with 200+ yards. Joe Mixon has 500+. Our leading receiver is Toney with 300+ yards. Chase has 700 and he isn't currently injured. Which part of the Giants has shown steady improvment over the 3 years that would lead you to the assumption that THIS is the year Jones HAS to take us to the playoffs? Our Defense?
You’ve never watched a Seahawks game huh? Yea Russ will dink and dunk some but there’s probably not many QBs who have as many successful big plays down the field as Russ.
We're rolling with an Andy Dalton now. What's the difference? We can't score 19 PPG with Dalton or some other FA?
I also don't buy the "weak QB class" argument. Corral and Willis both have a lot of talent...more certainly than Jones has when we drafted him 6th overall.
I believe we traded for the 2022 draft pick in the event Jones didn't show he was the guy in 2021. That was the headline this past spring: Jones gets 2021 to prove he's the guy. Is Jones showing he's the guy?
Really - cause everyone with eyes would understand he's improving on all of the issues he showed in years 1 and 2.
jones is inconsistent from week to week. jones has five passing touchdowns on the year. FIVE. he's cut down the league-worst fumbling he showed his rookie year, sure. but being more conservative with the football appears to have come at the expense of passing touchdowns.
these are the concerns most fans have with jones. inability to score touchdowns (league-worst in the redzone) and inconsistency from week to week.
"improving" would seem to be an overstatement. he's not fumbling as much. he's also averaging less that one passing touchdown per game, which is pathetic.
dude, the coaching staff that was here when jones was a rookie was fired, you know. under the current coaching staff, he has thrown 16 touchdowns in the last 21 games. pathetic numbers.
so are you saying that the current coaching staff is to blame for jones's abject lack of point production, despite your claiming that jones has improved in all areas since years 1 and 2? (his redzone production certainly hasn't improved)
Not suggesting there will several (or any) elite QBs out there but that doesn't mean there might not be several upgradable solutions available to choose from. Nobody wants the Giants to force a bad QB pick but also don't want to let another better option pass them by like they have in several of the last few draft years either. How likely are elite guys going to be more available in 2023...who the hell knows?
Jones not being a franchise QB but still holding down the job in 2022 might also be a viable path. It allows them to put their 2022 picks and free agent dollars to use fixing a roster this moron GM put together. But to just default your opinion to DJ in 2022 because you "can't see" a better option today sounds just as moronic.
Like I said the other day. If the Giants turn it around and go 10-7, I'll shut up.
But when they finish 6-11 or worse, blow it all up including Jones.
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In comment 15429718 Mike from Ohio said:
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In comment 15429708 UConn4523 said:
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if you are really just concentrating on the snippet from Tynes. I don't see the point in dissecting his comments, I didn't hear him say it and that could lead to a different interpretation than how its read.
Agree. It was a silly comment. Jones best game as a pro was not a 200 yard, 1TD game where the offense only needed a FG to win. Just this year the NO game was better. Just about every game he has played against Washington has been better.
The reason I am pointing this out is because the hysterical Jones hyperbole is not just coming from GoTerps and Producer on the negative side. It is also coming from guys like the OP and others on the positive side.
It would be awesome if we could tune out those who are emotionally invested in being right and discuss him with some objectivity. Threads like this and saying he “willed the team to victory” just distract from real discussusion.
Emotionally invested in being right hahaha
I only hope I m right because it would be good for the Giants.
Don’t be so presumptuous as to think you know me or that I care in the least about being proven right on a message board.
You being right about Jones and the Giants signing him to a long term deal would be good for the Giants. Terps being right about Jones and the Giants letting him walk would be good for the Giants. What can't happen is for Terps to be right about about Jones but the Giants sign him to a long term deal. That is disaster for the Giants.
And you describe other people's motives for posting what they post about Jones all the time, so no you are not exempt from the same.
Well if you put me in the same category as the well known critics of Jones on this board, who have more than once highjacked a thread to make their pt. ; it s time for me to bow out of further discussion on the matter, not interested in being in that classification
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if the QBs available aren’t highly thought of? Are we drafting one anyway and rolling with an Andy Dalton to start the season? If we don’t draft one who’s our week 1 starter in 2022?
We're rolling with an Andy Dalton now. What's the difference? We can't score 19 PPG with Dalton or some other FA?
I also don't buy the "weak QB class" argument. Corral and Willis both have a lot of talent...more certainly than Jones has when we drafted him 6th overall.
I believe we traded for the 2022 draft pick in the event Jones didn't show he was the guy in 2021. That was the headline this past spring: Jones gets 2021 to prove he's the guy. Is Jones showing he's the guy?
As of now neither guy should be taken #1 overall - the overwhelming consensus is that EDGE and OL will dominate the top 5 picks. So we shouldn't need to move up to get one of the two QB's, especially if we stink and pick around the top 5. It just so happens we need an EDGE rusher and OL so that's likely where we should be spending our 1st round picks.
My point on Dalton is that year 3 of Judge likely isn't signing up for a vet who stinks with no room to improve while the rookie sits, unless of course you think the rookie should just play week 1 which is impossible to know right now.
What if he can't do both?
We get no turnover, no risk Daniel, that doesn't score TDs
or
We get the eyes always downfield, make big plays Daniel, but he turns the ball over more than once a game.
Besides, the draft isn't about picking for need. Filling holes is a big reason they are where they are right now...
As for the 2022 QB class, there are some intriguing prospects, actually - Willis, Corral, and Pickett. Pickett is having a great year for Pitt. And there are some who think very highly of Carson Strong. So I'm not ready to say there aren't solutions in '22 that could replace Jones...
5 plays / 27 yards / punt
9 plays / 39 yards / turnover on downs
6 plays / 32 yards / FG
5 plays / 5 yards / punt
HALF
3 plays / -12 yards / punt
3 plays / 6 yards / punt
11 plays / 75 yards / TD
6 plays / 19 yards / FG
10 plays / 32 yards /FG
So there was the one long drive (11 plays / 75 yards) that resulted in the TD. Full kudos to Jones on that one.
The next longest drive in terms of yards was 39. The other scoring drives were 32, 19 and 32 yards.
I don't see an offense largely controlling field position. I see a team capitalizing on excellent field position.
I'm very much inclined not to participate in this endless discussion, but just to be accurate, the 5 yard net drive was the one where the offense (yes, including the QB) netted 5 yards of the 45 yards accrued due to plays called back for penalties, yes?
As for the 2022 QB class, there are some intriguing prospects, actually - Willis, Corral, and Pickett. Pickett is having a great year for Pitt. And there are some who think very highly of Carson Strong. So I'm not ready to say there aren't solutions in '22 that could replace Jones...
Jones athleticism is bit special. He may not have moves like Jackson, but he can perform in and out of the pocket (when he has one), has good speed and can give the OC some different options to formulate various game plans depending on the opponent.
I like a few of those college QBs. I don't think they are projected as elite or slam dunk franchise QBs as we sit here in Oct. But they certainly can turn into viable upgrades at QB for the NY Giants by next summer.
As for the 2022 QB class, there are some intriguing prospects, actually - Willis, Corral, and Pickett. Pickett is having a great year for Pitt. And there are some who think very highly of Carson Strong. So I'm not ready to say there aren't solutions in '22 that could replace Jones...
I think because of Lamar Jackson and Kyler Murray, Jones' ability as a runner is underrated. Part of that is on him early on with the fumbles but he seems to have rounded that corner and his feet are a real weapon. I'm under the impression that with that alone and an even average OL and average skill players he can be very effective running this offense. I respect his arm as well. For him its been about processing the game and its been an uphill battle with a shitty injured OL and shitty injured skill players being the norm.
Which leads me to the next guy - whoever we draft in theory with a first 1st round pick is going right into that same scenario and unless he gets better luck with a healthy team, will likely struggle just the same. Just look at Wilson - big arm, can move, made highlight play after highlight play at BYU and can't do a fucking thing in the NFL. Does he suck or do the Jets sucks? Pretty sure everyone would have taken him over Jones before the year started.
Jones threw TDs before Garrett arrived
The Chiefs have 9 TDs from the 3 yard line (8 from 2 yards). 5 are passing TDs. Watch their set up and you generally have no idea what they are going to do.
The Giants are not a good running team yet they always put the run heavy formation close. They make things too easy for defenses
My arguments against Jones have always been based on the same ideas:
1. His issues are going to be very hard to correct at the NFL level
2. His issues now are the same as those he had at Duke, where he never showed himself to be an exceptional player
3. He simply does not get the ball in the end zone enough
4. His running ability is the best part of his game, and the Giants are never going to be willing to feature that
5. He is never going to be worth a second contract
Sigh....
1) That simply isn't true
2) He had crap to work with at Duke, and had crap to work with during first 2 years. Even this year, the OL is still crap, and though he has talent at the skill positions, they've been injured most of the time.
3) True - see #2 as to why
4) Yep, his running ability is excellent. While I would like to see him utilized more I, for one, am glad they don't "feature" it, as that will get him killed. We've seen what happens to QB who run too much. It hasn't happened to your boy Jackson - yet. But if he keeps running 12-15 times a game, it will.
5) According to you, NO QB is worth a second contract. Wait, I take that back, I think you recently said Jackson would be worth it. But you backpedal/change your mind so much, I can't keep track...
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In comment 15429809 joeinpa said:
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In comment 15429718 Mike from Ohio said:
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In comment 15429708 UConn4523 said:
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if you are really just concentrating on the snippet from Tynes. I don't see the point in dissecting his comments, I didn't hear him say it and that could lead to a different interpretation than how its read.
Agree. It was a silly comment. Jones best game as a pro was not a 200 yard, 1TD game where the offense only needed a FG to win. Just this year the NO game was better. Just about every game he has played against Washington has been better.
The reason I am pointing this out is because the hysterical Jones hyperbole is not just coming from GoTerps and Producer on the negative side. It is also coming from guys like the OP and others on the positive side.
It would be awesome if we could tune out those who are emotionally invested in being right and discuss him with some objectivity. Threads like this and saying he “willed the team to victory” just distract from real discussusion.
Emotionally invested in being right hahaha
I only hope I m right because it would be good for the Giants.
Don’t be so presumptuous as to think you know me or that I care in the least about being proven right on a message board.
You being right about Jones and the Giants signing him to a long term deal would be good for the Giants. Terps being right about Jones and the Giants letting him walk would be good for the Giants. What can't happen is for Terps to be right about about Jones but the Giants sign him to a long term deal. That is disaster for the Giants.
And you describe other people's motives for posting what they post about Jones all the time, so no you are not exempt from the same.
Well if you put me in the same category as the well known critics of Jones on this board, who have more than once highjacked a thread to make their pt. ; it s time for me to bow out of further discussion on the matter, not interested in being in that classification
Just reread my response. To be clear I was referring to the classification of being a distraction, post not meant to be condescending to Producer or other posters on the other side of the debate on Jones, I have engaged them often and enjoyed it.
I want him to succeed. I'm rooting for him. But if this is the finshed product he's never going to be a top 10 NFL QB. He is also playing behind a bottom 5 OL and that might be generous. It's tough to throw TD passes when the OL can't run or pass block.
I not big on QB stats becasue they're somewhat dependent on the players around the QB. Jones is ranked 16-21 in most stats but I'm will to bet that none of the QB's ranked ahead of him would trade OL's with him. At this point right now after 7 games, based on the 2022 draft prospects and the ammount of holes on the Giants roster my vote would be to keep him but I'm not giving him a 2nd contract yet if ever.
good add
2) He had crap to work with at Duke, and had crap to work with during first 2 years. Even this year, the OL is still crap, and though he has talent at the skill positions, they've been injured most of the time.
3) True - see #2 as to why
This is what is so tiring. EVERYTHING is always everybody else's fault. He had shit to play with at Duke. He's had shit to play with in NY. His coach's suck. His OL sucks. His WR's suck.
Hey, how about maybe he just isn't that good? Don't you step back and at least entertain that possibility? The reality is that he was a mediocre QB at Duke, and he's been a mediocre QB for most of his time here. So we're led to believe that the GM who has picked all of that crap to play with Jones, using high draft picks and ample FA dollars to boot, was wrong about all of them, but somehow was right about Jones?
But if Jones isn’t the guy holding on to him for too long leads to at best mediocrity.
Cardinals were 8-8 in Murray’s second year. Lamar was 19-3 his first two years. Bills were 10-6 Allen’s second year. Browns were a couple games away from a Super Bowl appearance in Bakers third year. Bengals went from 2-14 when they drafted Burrow to 5-2 his second year. Chargers went 7-9 Herberts rookie year. It’s not as rare as you think it is if you have the right guy and the team is well put together. Any of those guys with the exception of probably Baker on the team last year and the Giants are probably 9-7 and in the playoffs.
The giants had two things going for them on Sunday. Jones and the defense.
Haha yeah, that's what Wilson does on a routine basis -- just dinks a short pass off to pad his stats. You'd sure have a tough time finding examples of Wilson completing insane deep throws with perfection!
As for the 2022 QB class, there are some intriguing prospects, actually - Willis, Corral, and Pickett. Pickett is having a great year for Pitt. And there are some who think very highly of Carson Strong. So I'm not ready to say there aren't solutions in '22 that could replace Jones...
We might even be able to take a QB in day 2 who's more promising than Jones is. Is it crazy to say that someone like Jake Haener is just as accomplished of a collegiate QB as Jones was?
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You'll have Russell Wilson dink it down to pad more yards which does no one any good.
Haha yeah, that's what Wilson does on a routine basis -- just dinks a short pass off to pad his stats. You'd sure have a tough time finding examples of Wilson completing insane deep throws with perfection!
You can't make it up with some of these people. You get the sense they don't even know what a football looks like.
OR, take a look at what the Bucs were before Brady or what the Hawks are after Wilson or what the Cards were before Murray. Those teams were or are off the NFL map.
More and more I am thinking Judge might not be the problem. You give this guy a stud QB, and maybe Jones grows more and more into one, (just relax this isn't a debate) or maybe he doesn't, but Judge gets his teams to play hard and seems to have a pulse on this team. A dynamic presence on offense covers up a lot of warts.
We might have the HC and we might have the QB but the QB needs to shine this chicken shit offense up some more. Sorry DJ, but that's the breaks of being an NFL QB. HE's been ok. He was just fine last Sunday. Keep it up. Keep running and stealing yardage and don't turn the ball over. You do those two things with that accuracy of his and he would be just fine.
Jones' stat line was modest, but considering the context which includes lack of surrounding cast and a pretty good Carolina defense, that stat line does not reflect how good Jones played.
I agree with this post 100%. I thought Jones played very well, and was a key element in the win, without question. I also think that "willed his team to victory" is unnecessarily dramatic, especially considering that the defensive unit deserves plenty of credit for the win as well.
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You'll have Russell Wilson dink it down to pad more yards which does no one any good.
Haha yeah, that's what Wilson does on a routine basis -- just dinks a short pass off to pad his stats. You'd sure have a tough time finding examples of Wilson completing insane deep throws with perfection!
Well he’s half right. Wilson does complete a short amount of throws but then he beats with 2-3 bombs a game.
It’s called sett8ng the defense up and Wilson is as good as anyone… Wilson might be the best deep ball thrower in the game.
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My arguments against Jones have always been based on the same ideas:
1. His issues are going to be very hard to correct at the NFL level
2. His issues now are the same as those he had at Duke, where he never showed himself to be an exceptional player
3. He simply does not get the ball in the end zone enough
4. His running ability is the best part of his game, and the Giants are never going to be willing to feature that
5. He is never going to be worth a second contract
Sigh....
1) That simply isn't true
2) He had crap to work with at Duke, and had crap to work with during first 2 years. Even this year, the OL is still crap, and though he has talent at the skill positions, they've been injured most of the time.
3) True - see #2 as to why
4) Yep, his running ability is excellent. While I would like to see him utilized more I, for one, am glad they don't "feature" it, as that will get him killed. We've seen what happens to QB who run too much. It hasn't happened to your boy Jackson - yet. But if he keeps running 12-15 times a game, it will.
5) According to you, NO QB is worth a second contract. Wait, I take that back, I think you recently said Jackson would be worth it. But you backpedal/change your mind so much, I can't keep track...
DJ is on track for 12 passing TDs this year, after 11 passing TDs last year. Even with his rookie year included (which may be an outlier at this point), he has 40 TDs in 32 starts, which works out to 21 passing TDs per season (in a 17-game schedule). In the current pass-happy NFL, that's really not good enough.
That's not to say that he can't improve. It's just pointing out that he hasn't been good enough thus far, even with external factors included.