He made this observation on the “Blue Rush” podcast yesterday, with Paul Schwartz.
Felt it was a moment where Daniel put the offense on his back and willed them to victory
Hesitate to post this as it will trigger another Jones debate, of which even I am tiring, and I participate in all of them.
But nice to hear Tynes say this.
The equation doesn't add up.
A great QB can overcome a terrible OL, just look at Patrick Mahomes
Wait…
The idea that he carried the team comes from the belief that when there was nothing going on around him he stepped up and made a play that changed the game. Not only as a QB making a play that not a lot of wide receivers could make, but also the toughness he displayed (one again) in going to get the ball with a defender and a certain big hit bearing down on him.
NYG had scored 5 points before that play and 20 after it. It had both a tangible and intangible impact on the game.
That tough reception alone he made, taking yet another blow to the head, and still holding onto the ball was a perfect example. And the key play on the TD drive that really put the Giants in charge of the game...
Well said, and that’s why his teammates all seem to love him. Nobody questions his heart
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that Gettelman has done a terrible job with the OL (and roster in general) but somehow the QB is supposed to overcome that anyway, and on a weekly basis while also dealing with half the starters (or more) out for the majority of the weeks this year.
The equation doesn't add up.
A great QB can overcome a terrible OL, just look at Patrick Mahomes
Wait…
You wanna compare what Mahommes has done this year to Jones.
The idea that he carried the team comes from the belief that when there was nothing going on around him he stepped up and made a play that changed the game. Not only as a QB making a play that not a lot of wide receivers could make, but also the toughness he displayed (one again) in going to get the ball with a defender and a certain big hit bearing down on him.
NYG had scored 5 points before that play and 20 after it. It had both a tangible and intangible impact on the game.
And the defense absolutely shutting down Darnold too.
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that Gettelman has done a terrible job with the OL (and roster in general) but somehow the QB is supposed to overcome that anyway, and on a weekly basis while also dealing with half the starters (or more) out for the majority of the weeks this year.
The equation doesn't add up.
A great QB can overcome a terrible OL, just look at Patrick Mahomes
Wait…
Not saying Jones should be expected to do what Mahomes is doing but he’s still on pace for 4700 yards and 41 tds despite their bad line play. He’s just throwing a lot of interceptions right now but the Chiefs are still scoring points.
Probably at Washington this year and at Philly last year as well. Totally let down by Engram and Slayton in game winning moments.
But yeah, things aren't looking good in KC and a lot of it is because of the OL. Go figure.
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and his first game as a starter in TB, I think are his best three performances. Can't go wrong with any of those three.
Probably at Washington this year and at Philly last year as well. Totally let down by Engram and Slayton in game winning moments.
Yep. Those two games would round out the top 5.
But yeah, things aren't looking good in KC and a lot of it is because of the OL. Go figure.
I would argue KC defense is more problematic than their OL. We should score a ton of points against them.
The idea that he carried the team comes from the belief that when there was nothing going on around him he stepped up and made a play that changed the game. Not only as a QB making a play that not a lot of wide receivers could make, but also the toughness he displayed (one again) in going to get the ball with a defender and a certain big hit bearing down on him.
NYG had scored 5 points before that play and 20 after it. It had both a tangible and intangible impact on the game.
How did Jones’ catch impact the Panthers into having drives of -1, -16, and 1 yard? That was all the defense and that happens with or without Jones making the catch.
Nobody is saying Jones was bad but this is being turned into some mythical performance.
But yeah, things aren't looking good in KC and a lot of it is because of the OL. Go figure.
It’s more their defense. They’re still scoring points was documented in the other thread. They’ll have 41 passing TDS, Giants are on pace for 12.
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he isn't comparing Jones to Mahomes, not sure why its the go to response. He's clearly showing that OL matters even to the elite QB's out there.
But yeah, things aren't looking good in KC and a lot of it is because of the OL. Go figure.
I would argue KC defense is more problematic than their OL. We should score a ton of points against them.
What other top QBs has the same flaws we disqualify Jones for?
With regard to Jones not getting passing TDs
I see this argument and do not agree
Jones has had TDs taken away due to drops and penalties.
But the major reason for his diminished passing tds is related to play calling and opportunity.
Until last week when in the Redzone (inside the 20) Jones had only thrown 22 passes, inside the 10 he had only thrown the ball 7 times, 2 times in the endzone.
You can not throw TDs if the play called is to run the ball.
When in the redzone Garrett becomes run centric, he does not believe in throwing the ball, and he just does not call for passes in the endzone.
What reinforces my contention that it is redzone play calling that limits Jones opportunity to score. Look at the Giants success on two point conversions. The play calling is far more diverse and Jones has scored on every occasion (3) including a pass to Shepard.
This past week when in the redzone the Giants actually threw the ball twice for positive gains. Once to the one and another a TD. But again no throws into the endzone.
You can not throw TDs if the play called is to run the ball.
You can if you audible out of a poor run call to a better pass option which is done quite often. Now if Jones doesnt have the ability to do that from judge or garrett, that an indictment of him.
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In comment 15429767 UConn4523 said:
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he isn't comparing Jones to Mahomes, not sure why its the go to response. He's clearly showing that OL matters even to the elite QB's out there.
But yeah, things aren't looking good in KC and a lot of it is because of the OL. Go figure.
I would argue KC defense is more problematic than their OL. We should score a ton of points against them.
When was the last time scored a ton of points?
They scored 31 points last week and 42 points just two weeks before that.
Is this a trick question?
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if you are really just concentrating on the snippet from Tynes. I don't see the point in dissecting his comments, I didn't hear him say it and that could lead to a different interpretation than how its read.
Agree. It was a silly comment. Jones best game as a pro was not a 200 yard, 1TD game where the offense only needed a FG to win. Just this year the NO game was better. Just about every game he has played against Washington has been better.
The reason I am pointing this out is because the hysterical Jones hyperbole is not just coming from GoTerps and Producer on the negative side. It is also coming from guys like the OP and others on the positive side.
It would be awesome if we could tune out those who are emotionally invested in being right and discuss him with some objectivity. Threads like this and saying he “willed the team to victory” just distract from real discussusion.
Emotionally invested in being right hahaha
I only hope I m right because it would be good for the Giants.
Don’t be so presumptuous as to think you know me or that I care in the least about being proven right on a message board.
This game was first and foremost about the defense and their dominance. Secondly it was about how bad Sam Darnold was. Third it was about our offense being productive with a skeleton crew.
Wow! You managed to come up with a hypothetical to undercut a compliment to Jones.
Well done.
For the fans that like Jones and think he is “the guy”, that obviously isn’t a concern.
But, the Giants need to tread lightly here. If Jones is the guy, shouldn’t he be able to carry the team to the playoffs THIS YEAR.
Look at guys like Burrow, Herbert, Lamar, Kyler & Josh Allen - all those QB’s are leading their team to the playoffs. And don’t talk about OL with Burrow, his is putrid.
That is the issue.
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he isn't comparing Jones to Mahomes, not sure why its the go to response. He's clearly showing that OL matters even to the elite QB's out there.
But yeah, things aren't looking good in KC and a lot of it is because of the OL. Go figure.
I would argue KC defense is more problematic than their OL. We should score a ton of points against them.
Agree KC has to figure out some issues but it is not their OL as was incorrectly mentioned above.
Noted this on another thread the KC offense has been producing yards and scoring points at a pretty high level. Their OL has also allowed a fairly low pressure % and putting up decent running number despite having to use a backup RB tandem.
KC has issues with their offensive playmakers turning the ball over at one of the highest levels in the league and their defense isn't stopping many team either. These are what they need to correct, not the OL.
But go figure...
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In comment 15429668 UConn4523 said:
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that Gettelman has done a terrible job with the OL (and roster in general) but somehow the QB is supposed to overcome that anyway, and on a weekly basis while also dealing with half the starters (or more) out for the majority of the weeks this year.
The equation doesn't add up.
A great QB can overcome a terrible OL, just look at Patrick Mahomes
Wait…
You wanna compare what Mahommes has done this year to Jones.
I was being snippy in my comment, obviously:)
nobody would compare Jones to Mahomes. Only pointing out that even one of the elite QBs in football still struggles to overcome OL problems
The original topic is Tynes comment, to which I generally agree…Jones delivered a tough, clutch performance. Wasn’t pretty, but they won largely bc of him
Now, let’s see if he can do it more than once every few games…
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In comment 15429708 UConn4523 said:
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if you are really just concentrating on the snippet from Tynes. I don't see the point in dissecting his comments, I didn't hear him say it and that could lead to a different interpretation than how its read.
Agree. It was a silly comment. Jones best game as a pro was not a 200 yard, 1TD game where the offense only needed a FG to win. Just this year the NO game was better. Just about every game he has played against Washington has been better.
The reason I am pointing this out is because the hysterical Jones hyperbole is not just coming from GoTerps and Producer on the negative side. It is also coming from guys like the OP and others on the positive side.
It would be awesome if we could tune out those who are emotionally invested in being right and discuss him with some objectivity. Threads like this and saying he “willed the team to victory” just distract from real discussusion.
Emotionally invested in being right hahaha
I only hope I m right because it would be good for the Giants.
Don’t be so presumptuous as to think you know me or that I care in the least about being proven right on a message board.
You being right about Jones and the Giants signing him to a long term deal would be good for the Giants. Terps being right about Jones and the Giants letting him walk would be good for the Giants. What can't happen is for Terps to be right about about Jones but the Giants sign him to a long term deal. That is disaster for the Giants.
And you describe other people's motives for posting what they post about Jones all the time, so no you are not exempt from the same.
I think Paul Schwartz summed up the Giants biggest problems and Jones perfectly today, but I'll still hold off for a few months on the last sentence:
On the list of what ails the Giants most of all: 1. Offensive line. 2. Offensive line. 3. Pass rush. 4. Current and future health of the offensive playmakers. 5. Tight end.
Every NFL outpost either has one or is searching for its franchise quarterback and yet there is no widespread consensus as to exactly what it takes to be one of these.
There is an eye-of-the-beholder feel to all this, akin to Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart back in 1964, commenting on a case involving a threshold test for obscenity.
“Perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so’’ Stewart wrote, revealing his difficulty in creating a definition of hardcore pornography, “but I know it when I see it.’’
We know a franchise quarterback when we see him.
Is this the vision in front of us, wearing No. 8, in blue, one day removed from throwing, scrambling and pass-catching the Giants to a rare victory? If anyone can bang the table and uncategorically state “Daniel Jones is a franchise quarterback’’ they are either remarkably prescient, admittedly biased or else related to the 24-year-old from Charlotte, N.C.
It is safe to say the Giants feel better about Jones now, seven games into what is destined to be another losing record, than they did at the end of last season. It is safe to say Jones, by virtue of his play on the field, his rock-solid demeanor and considerable athletic gifts, has earned the right to be the Giants starting quarterback in 2022 — unless something goes haywire in the final 10 games.
Daniel Jones should be the least of the Giants concerns - ( New Window )
What I am saying is that the offenses ability to sustain drives allowed defense to rest and also forced Carolina into less desirable field position where they had to do more passing which is their weakness due to Darnold's lack of accuracy and their OL looking worse than the Giants'.
In Jones’ defense, Sy’s write up documents how lousy the OL’s pass protection was. Hernandez and Solder were just awful. But Jones is still not putting up points.
I just don’t think we learned anything at all about Jones on Sunday.
I think we are learning.
If the Giants could actually move out people on the OL inside the red zone, and had a competently designed red zone offense, Jones would be be putting points on the board. Like Sunday....the Giants/Jones left points on the field.
What we are learning is he's not elite. But he is becoming a pretty good NFL QB. As the team gets better, so will he esp with experience.
So the question becomes (and more is to play out this year), do we go with Jones and try to surround him with talent or just try to get that elite type QB (Murray, Jackson, etc.) who can function when things around them break down completely (well, more than others do).
Damning with faint praise.
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Good post.
In Jones’ defense, Sy’s write up documents how lousy the OL’s pass protection was. Hernandez and Solder were just awful. But Jones is still not putting up points.
I just don’t think we learned anything at all about Jones on Sunday.
I think we are learning.
If the Giants could actually move out people on the OL inside the red zone, and had a competently designed red zone offense, Jones would be be putting points on the board. Like Sunday....the Giants/Jones left points on the field.
What we are learning is he's not elite. But he is becoming a pretty good NFL QB. As the team gets better, so will he esp with experience.
So the question becomes (and more is to play out this year), do we go with Jones and try to surround him with talent or just try to get that elite type QB (Murray, Jackson, etc.) who can function when things around them break down completely (well, more than others do).
What are we paying Jones? Minnesota is in QB hell because they overpaid Cousins for an extended period of time so they can't upgrade. If Jones is paid about 20-25th starting QB money then you take it, if he is paid Top 10-12 starting QB money I look elsewhere.
Damning with faint praise.
I can count on one hand and have fingers left over the number of QB's in the NFL who can single handedly win games with little talent around them. Rodgers and Brady, that's it.
Right now, the OL is still sub standard and while we have good pieces around him on offense, it's still not cohesive due to injuries and IMO, scheme.
A new GM and a new OC are paramount for 2022.
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Schwartz saying he's the least of their concerns is similar to people here repeatedly saying he isn't the problem. What no one is saying is that he is the long term solution to getting the Giants to Super Bowl contention.
Damning with faint praise.
I can count on one hand and have fingers left over the number of QB's in the NFL who can single handedly win games with little talent around them. Rodgers and Brady, that's it.
Mike - we saw Brady in New England struggle his last year. Brady is unreal, but he needs help around him to make it go.
Murray, Jackson, Allen, Rodgers.......those are the guys who either can get out of trouble or just (in Rodger's case) flick his wrist and make just an incredible throw. And he can still move.
Outside of those guys, a QB needs talent around him.
What I a, asking is this…did he put the team on his back and carry the, to victory? I understand complementary football. An individual does not carry a team to victory is you play complementary football.
Again…not saying Jones did not contribute to the win, that he sucks, or that I wish we could fire him into the sun. I am asking about the comments made by Tynes that the OP posted, and the OP’s view that Jones willed the tea, to victory.
Can’t we all agree that there is a fair degree of hyperbole in all of that?
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In comment 15429835 Go Terps said:
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Schwartz saying he's the least of their concerns is similar to people here repeatedly saying he isn't the problem. What no one is saying is that he is the long term solution to getting the Giants to Super Bowl contention.
Damning with faint praise.
I can count on one hand and have fingers left over the number of QB's in the NFL who can single handedly win games with little talent around them. Rodgers and Brady, that's it.
Mike - we saw Brady in New England struggle his last year. Brady is unreal, but he needs help around him to make it go.
Murray, Jackson, Allen, Rodgers.......those are the guys who either can get out of trouble or just (in Rodger's case) flick his wrist and make just an incredible throw. And he can still move.
Outside of those guys, a QB needs talent around him.
Murray has never been to the playoffs. Jackson has struggled when he is facing playoff caliber defenses who can keep him in the pocket. He has made progress in that area, but I would like to see more. Allen has great receiving talent and a solid OL. Before they got Diggs he was not the same QB he is now.
Are the talented players around good Qbs talented or are they good because the QB makes them better?
Are the bad QBs with no talent surrounded with no talent or are they not good enough to raise the level of the players around them?
Deep thinking at its finest.
I am not talking about pipe dreams, I am talking about QBs that are available ?
The only player who I could see as an upgrade is Watson but I do not see the Giants taking on a player who is embroiled in litigation that could result in his suspension.
As for next years draft there are some interesting prospects but there is no Lawrence, Burrow, Hebert, Mahomes, Murray, or Allen. There are a lot of question marks and no QB that I believe can be as good as Jones.
Even if there was a great QB available that QB could never reach his potential unless the supporting cast were improved.
If the Giants use their draft capital to obtain a QB they do that at the expense of filling other holes.
Drafting a new QB will set the Giants rebuild back another 2-3 years. Look at the teams with rookie QBs
What have Jaguars, Jets, Bears, 49ers, done this year ?
Patriots are in the best position but they have a good team to support Jones.
Allen has great receiving talent and a solid OL. Before they got Diggs he was not the same QB he is now.
How many pro bowls did Diggs make before going to Buffalo?
Jones led the best drive of the day, 75 yds and a TD, to make it 12-3. From that point on, they got the ball at their own 46 (19 yds and a FG); at CAR's 44 (32 yds and a FG); at CAR's 19 (19 yds and a TD). So after that one good drive, they scored 13 points off of a whopping 70 yards of offense.
As I said, given the circumstances, Jones played well. He didn't turn the ball over, and that 75-yard TD drive was the turning point of the game. But if this was the best game of his career, that doesn't say what many of his most fervent supporters think it does.
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In comment 15429835 Go Terps said:
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Schwartz saying he's the least of their concerns is similar to people here repeatedly saying he isn't the problem. What no one is saying is that he is the long term solution to getting the Giants to Super Bowl contention.
Damning with faint praise.
I can count on one hand and have fingers left over the number of QB's in the NFL who can single handedly win games with little talent around them. Rodgers and Brady, that's it.
Mike - we saw Brady in New England struggle his last year. Brady is unreal, but he needs help around him to make it go.
Murray, Jackson, Allen, Rodgers.......those are the guys who either can get out of trouble or just (in Rodger's case) flick his wrist and make just an incredible throw. And he can still move.
Outside of those guys, a QB needs talent around him.
Hit send too soon. My response was to GoTerps saying that Jones is not a QB who can singlehandedly make the Giants Super Bowl contenders. What I am saying is that the number who can singlehandedly do that is less than 10% of current NFL starting QB's. Therefore by his logic 90% of teams should be looking for new QB's.
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In comment 15429842 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 15429835 Go Terps said:
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Schwartz saying he's the least of their concerns is similar to people here repeatedly saying he isn't the problem. What no one is saying is that he is the long term solution to getting the Giants to Super Bowl contention.
Damning with faint praise.
I can count on one hand and have fingers left over the number of QB's in the NFL who can single handedly win games with little talent around them. Rodgers and Brady, that's it.
Mike - we saw Brady in New England struggle his last year. Brady is unreal, but he needs help around him to make it go.
Murray, Jackson, Allen, Rodgers.......those are the guys who either can get out of trouble or just (in Rodger's case) flick his wrist and make just an incredible throw. And he can still move.
Outside of those guys, a QB needs talent around him.
Murray has never been to the playoffs. Jackson has struggled when he is facing playoff caliber defenses who can keep him in the pocket. He has made progress in that area, but I would like to see more. Allen has great receiving talent and a solid OL. Before they got Diggs he was not the same QB he is now.
Mike - good points.
But you have to admit, Murray looks the part and makes some incredible plays where other QBs would be dead in their tracks.
Jackson - ok, he's not winning big in the playoffs (yet anyway), but c'mon - the guy is incredible.
Allen - yep, Buffalo has done a great job of surrounding him with talent. But like Murray, he makes some incredible individual plays that other QBs aren't making. I said on another thread sometimes he looks like the kid in Babe Ruth playing with Little Leaguers.
But to your point, you NEED help around your QB for him to function.
Yeah, Jones needs it more than those guys. He's probably not going to be an "elite" QB but more than just a functional QB.
SO again, should we be drafting 2-3 QBs per draft (as someone said on here) to get a hit on an incredible talent, or try to build an NFL team around someone who is most likely going to be pretty good.
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Allen has great receiving talent and a solid OL. Before they got Diggs he was not the same QB he is now.
How many pro bowls did Diggs make before going to Buffalo?
He did not have any, but he did have 2 1000+ yard seasons and was never below 720 yards in 5 seasons (and the lowest was his rookie year) and was a Top 100 player multiple times. I would argue that he was underrated because Julio Jones, Davante Adams, OBJ, and Michael Thomas got more hype in NFC.
Last week, to me he showed guts and toughness. Ran the ball up the middle on options. Caught a pass and took a hit. Made some plays with scrambles in the pocket and dumping it off. It wasn't his best game (that's WFT and NO). But it was the type of game you need from your leader and the type of games an NFL team needs to win.
The issue will if he doesn't play well next week, everyone will be on him again. QB is not linear, and despite this being his third year, the surrounding cast dictates a lot with DJ.
Keep playing, stay healthy - those are the two most important things for him right now.
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In comment 15429846 BillKo said:
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In comment 15429842 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 15429835 Go Terps said:
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Schwartz saying he's the least of their concerns is similar to people here repeatedly saying he isn't the problem. What no one is saying is that he is the long term solution to getting the Giants to Super Bowl contention.
Damning with faint praise.
I can count on one hand and have fingers left over the number of QB's in the NFL who can single handedly win games with little talent around them. Rodgers and Brady, that's it.
Mike - we saw Brady in New England struggle his last year. Brady is unreal, but he needs help around him to make it go.
Murray, Jackson, Allen, Rodgers.......those are the guys who either can get out of trouble or just (in Rodger's case) flick his wrist and make just an incredible throw. And he can still move.
Outside of those guys, a QB needs talent around him.
Murray has never been to the playoffs. Jackson has struggled when he is facing playoff caliber defenses who can keep him in the pocket. He has made progress in that area, but I would like to see more. Allen has great receiving talent and a solid OL. Before they got Diggs he was not the same QB he is now.
Mike - good points.
But you have to admit, Murray looks the part and makes some incredible plays where other QBs would be dead in their tracks.
Jackson - ok, he's not winning big in the playoffs (yet anyway), but c'mon - the guy is incredible.
Allen - yep, Buffalo has done a great job of surrounding him with talent. But like Murray, he makes some incredible individual plays that other QBs aren't making. I said on another thread sometimes he looks like the kid in Babe Ruth playing with Little Leaguers.
But to your point, you NEED help around your QB for him to function.
Yeah, Jones needs it more than those guys. He's probably not going to be an "elite" QB but more than just a functional QB.
SO again, should we be drafting 2-3 QBs per draft (as someone said on here) to get a hit on an incredible talent, or try to build an NFL team around someone who is most likely going to be pretty good.
If we are paying Jones commensurate with the type of QB he is I would draft a QB if there is someone we see as a good bet to be a better option, but we should not force something and end up with Blake Bortles. If Jones wants to be paid more than the type of QB he is then you cut bait and draft a new QB no questions asked.
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In comment 15429860 Mike in NY said:
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Allen has great receiving talent and a solid OL. Before they got Diggs he was not the same QB he is now.
How many pro bowls did Diggs make before going to Buffalo?
He did not have any, but he did have 2 1000+ yard seasons and was never below 720 yards in 5 seasons (and the lowest was his rookie year) and was a Top 100 player multiple times. I would argue that he was underrated because Julio Jones, Davante Adams, OBJ, and Michael Thomas got more hype in NFC.
Buffalo gave up a 1st, 5th, 6th and 4th rounder the following season for Diggs. That is a ton of draft capital. Diggs is a terrific WR and was before he went to Buffalo. And the Bills knew that. People actually still give a shit about Pro Bowls?
There is no sense debating with posters that insinuate Diggs wasn’t a great WR because he didn’t get voted to the freakin Pro Bowl…
You are limited by the personal groupings
If you have extra blockers, TEs, fullback, etc. your choice in play calling is not great.