Pettis has a big few weeks coming up. He’s a former 2nd rounder. There is no reason he can’t establish himself as a reliable possession WR and figure in the teams future.
comments about Darnold and Rosen. That level of honesty makes your reviews and grades far more credible.
Hernandez was absolutely putrid this past week. Solder is done, we all know that but Hernandez is much younger and in theory should be playing better at this stage and he clearly isn't. He constantly looks lost and I am sure the Staff knows this as well. Solder is a necessity right now, ie, we don't have a choice BUT Hernandez was counted on aid after all the injuries he is actually one of the biggest liabilities.
I like Pettis and I think we have a guy who can stick here for a while.
SY- have you ever seen a team that gets their RB tackled for a loss by the backside defender more than the Giants. I mean it happens so often that it must be partially play tip off and scheme deficient. I have never seen more backside tackles from guys who look untouched in the running game. Even in bunch formation we still somehow allow the backside guy to make contact behind the LOS. It is maddening.
We need to no longer go bunch unless we bring in a tackle or DL as an extra blocker. Our TE's are horrible and they aren't fooling anyone with the slip one guy through in the pattern.
Some good observations here. Good to see Carter's role reduced. I like the 4-man front of Lawrence & Johnson inside, Williams & Ojulari on the edges.
When B.McKinney is up to speed, they can start creating some problems with blitz packages. Among other things, Crowder (the current 3-down LB) is not an effective blitzer. Get McKinney in there and you've got some kind of threat at ILB. He's an old school MLB in the Jeremiah Trotter mold.
Just a question. If by chance Gates is not able to recover as we need him, or even if he is, what have we seen from Billy Price big picture wise --in other words is he a potential answer (OG or OG) into next year, or purely back up material?
Thanks!
It’s interesting how the coaches are not inserting Hernandez in as
LG, his longtime position. I suspect they don’t want WH playing anywhere near the two young tackles they are trying to develop. I also suspect if it weren’t for the rash of injuries WH would have been benched.
I thought Jones played well considering that Golladay, Shepard, Toney, and Barkley were out, and his OL is makeshift at best. He protected the ball and went through his reads. As I have said, I want to see how Jones plays for the entire season before making any decision about him one way or another. Too many people are too excited or depressed about his future based on one or two games.
I agree that Hernandez was poor. He is part of the reason the Giants have had so much difficulty recognizing simple stunts, and his later mobility is poor. At this point, I wouldn’t resign him. Price also has that same latter problem IMO. He is too easily beaten by swim moves in pass protection. Solder simply isn’t an NFL player anymore. After being beaten early, Peart was solid.
The defense played very well. I agree it will be interesting to see if Roche gets more snaps at the expense of Carter or Ximines. I don’t expect the Giants to resign either of the latter two players. McKinney is a big upgrade over Ragland as you note.
Ojulari developing is very encouraging. As is X. McKinney.
Sy, I'm curious what you thought/think of the Golloday signing. Knowing that the Giants were hell bent on a WR in Round 1, di you think they should have signed an OL in FA rather than a WR?
Ellerson Smith has 2 weeks left on his clock, I'm assuming the Giants want him activated to aid in his development.
If there aren't any injuries between now and then, who from the OLB group do you move off the roster so Smith has a spot?
Denver needs LB's, hence their trade with the rams yesterday. If we could get a 7th rounder for Xman or Carter, I would take it. Neither has long-term written on them here and we might as well add more picks as we will need a LOT of young, cheap, backend guys for next season.
but clinging for some hope. Is it possible Hernandez’s play could in any way be negatively impacted by the corpse of Nate Solder who has been lining up next to him?
that anyone thought Hernandez would be any good. He's been awful since day 1. The only reason he's on the field right now is because of injuries. There's a reason why once Lemieux started playing last year Hernandez didnt make it back
I have one selfish question that may be way too early to ask, but Fordham has a very intriguing linebacker - Ryan Greenhagen. I watch their games and he jumps off the screen as a tackling machine with incredible instincts. A couple of weeks ago he was injured and will miss the rest of his senior season. He seems to me like one of those RFAs you bring into camp that could actually turn into a solid player. Interested to see if he makes it onto your radar.
about how this front office (and Reese's FO) pencils in questionable offensive lineman as starters with little to no contingency. Lemieux was a rookie who showed some promise but also struggled a bit. Ditto for Hernandez who then simply struggled the next two years. Both players should have been pushed by someone this last offseason.
but clinging for some hope. Is it possible Hernandez’s play could in any way be negatively impacted by the corpse of Nate Solder who has been lining up next to him?
NO.. Hernandez absolutely whiffed on two assignments that were clearly his responsibility.
I think the writing was on the wall for what Judge and company thought of the existing LBs when we drafted 5 in 2 years. Coughlin, Brown, Crowder, Ojulari, Elerson Smith, Blake Martinez, Reggie Ragland, Bernardrick McKinney have all been added in two years.
I think Skura and Price are a change as well, it's wide bodies who can pull and move and won't get you clobbered. I'm starting to see that DG and Judge have different talent evaluation criteria and it looks like Judge's way is creeping in.
What a difference consistent pressure makes for a back seven, a defense, and then the offense with turnovers and shortened field. I hope to continue to see more of Roche, and eventually Ellerson Smith in the weeks to come. Regardless of how those two and Ojulari show the rest of the way though, keep building this unit. YCNHTMPR.
but clinging for some hope. Is it possible Hernandez’s play could in any way be negatively impacted by the corpse of Nate Solder who has been lining up next to him?
NO.. Hernandez absolutely whiffed on two assignments that were clearly his responsibility.
This may be true, on its face. But there's more to it - communication is critical. So, while it's fun and easy to latch onto whipping boys on BBI, I'm not convinced we can so simply lay a "whiff" at the feet of one guy.
It's similar, to me, when a quarterback throws a ball to a spot nowhere near a receiver, whether it's intercepted or it just falls flat. Man, does the quarterback look bad. But what's mentioned much less often than it should be: did that receiver completely screw the pooch on his route? Where was he SUPPOSED to be? And did the quarterback deliver the ball to exactly that spot?
So many more factors involved in evaluating a play or plays than just what you see on the TV screen, or even in person, from a distance.
I think the writing was on the wall for what Judge and company thought of the existing LBs when we drafted 5 in 2 years. Coughlin, Brown, Crowder, Ojulari, Elerson Smith, Blake Martinez, Reggie Ragland, Bernardrick McKinney have all been added in two years.
I think Skura and Price are a change as well, it's wide bodies who can pull and move and won't get you clobbered. I'm starting to see that DG and Judge have different talent evaluation criteria and it looks like Judge's way is creeping in.
Gettleman has devoted 24% of his draft selections to Linebacker / EDGE. The NFL average is 13% over the same four years (2018 - 2021).
And the amount of Draft and Free Agent resources he has devoted to the secondary is beyond crazy. Not to mention Gettleman has failed to re-build the O-line.
Oh, well. Next season Dave Gettleman can join BBI as the former GM of the NYG!
but clinging for some hope. Is it possible Hernandez’s play could in any way be negatively impacted by the corpse of Nate Solder who has been lining up next to him?
NO.. Hernandez absolutely whiffed on two assignments that were clearly his responsibility.
This may be true, on its face. But there's more to it - communication is critical. So, while it's fun and easy to latch onto whipping boys on BBI, I'm not convinced we can so simply lay a "whiff" at the feet of one guy.
It's similar, to me, when a quarterback throws a ball to a spot nowhere near a receiver, whether it's intercepted or it just falls flat. Man, does the quarterback look bad. But what's mentioned much less often than it should be: did that receiver completely screw the pooch on his route? Where was he SUPPOSED to be? And did the quarterback deliver the ball to exactly that spot?
So many more factors involved in evaluating a play or plays than just what you see on the TV screen, or even in person, from a distance.
I disagree here. It isn't communication when a stunt means you let your guy go (as the G) and the Tackle picks up and you take the stunting player who is now coming up the middle. Instead WH followed his guy right into Solder and they both whiffed that block while WH's responsibility (the lopping/stunting DL) has a free run at Jones.
WH was horrible- I stated as such in another thread before SY's review.
I think the writing was on the wall for what Judge and company thought of the existing LBs when we drafted 5 in 2 years. Coughlin, Brown, Crowder, Ojulari, Elerson Smith, Blake Martinez, Reggie Ragland, Bernardrick McKinney have all been added in two years.
I think Skura and Price are a change as well, it's wide bodies who can pull and move and won't get you clobbered. I'm starting to see that DG and Judge have different talent evaluation criteria and it looks like Judge's way is creeping in.
Gettleman has devoted 24% of his draft selections to Linebacker / EDGE. The NFL average is 13% over the same four years (2018 - 2021).
And the amount of Draft and Free Agent resources he has devoted to the secondary is beyond crazy. Not to mention Gettleman has failed to re-build the O-line.
Oh, well. Next season Dave Gettleman can join BBI as the former GM of the NYG!
"Gettleman has devoted 24% of his draft selections to Linebacker / EDGE. The NFL average is 13% over the same four years (2018 - 2021)." is meaningless without weighting the picks. Many of them the last few years have been 6th and 7th rounders like Crowder and Coughlin who have represented good value for where they were chosen.
you don't have enough information to make that judgment.
In response to jvm.
Sure I do go back and look at that play. It isn't Solder's responsibility on the stunting player as we would have to run through WH to get to that guy. So, common sense and general football knowledge says WH's responsibility was to pass his guy to Solder and then peel back and take the stunting player. WH didn't do that and chased his guy, running into Solder in the process and let the stunting player have a free run.
This isn't guess work or even close to the same issue you mentioned about an int and the real responsible party. There is no other way this play should have gone based on basic OL blocking schemes and techniques. WH was completely out of place- period.
I think the writing was on the wall for what Judge and company thought of the existing LBs when we drafted 5 in 2 years. Coughlin, Brown, Crowder, Ojulari, Elerson Smith, Blake Martinez, Reggie Ragland, Bernardrick McKinney have all been added in two years.
I think Skura and Price are a change as well, it's wide bodies who can pull and move and won't get you clobbered. I'm starting to see that DG and Judge have different talent evaluation criteria and it looks like Judge's way is creeping in.
Gettleman has devoted 24% of his draft selections to Linebacker / EDGE. The NFL average is 13% over the same four years (2018 - 2021).
And the amount of Draft and Free Agent resources he has devoted to the secondary is beyond crazy. Not to mention Gettleman has failed to re-build the O-line.
Oh, well. Next season Dave Gettleman can join BBI as the former GM of the NYG!
"Gettleman has devoted 24% of his draft selections to Linebacker / EDGE. The NFL average is 13% over the same four years (2018 - 2021)." is meaningless without weighting the picks. Many of them the last few years have been 6th and 7th rounders like Crowder and Coughlin who have represented good value for where they were chosen.
Azeez Ojulari with the 50th pick may prove to be real good value, but Lorenzo Carter with 66th pick and Oshane Ximines with 95th pick probably not.
Azeez Ojulari with the 50th pick may prove to be real good value, but Lorenzo Carter with 66th pick and Oshane Ximines with 95th pick probably not.
Also damning for DG and the Giants FO is that in this span they have not committed much resources to EDGE during FA and have missed out on some guys who have done really well in recent years like Shaq Barrett, Matt Judon, and as Sy mentions, Hasaan Reddick. Pass rushers aren't like OTs, good ones do shake loose in FA.
Giants need to look for guys who were given limited opportunities on teams that are loaded at EDGE. Or rebuilding teams looking to avoid long term financial commitments. Whereas a rebuilding team will want to keep a talented OT to help develop a QB, they might be more willing to let a talented pass rusher go.
I think the writing was on the wall when they moved WH to RG. I believe they were hoping to replace him but he most certainly is gone after the season.
Good news on Price. Finding a potential starter (s) or at least quality depth from all the additions will really help them focus on BPA with the 5 picks they have in the first 100.
Easy to say need a vet to push him, however the reality of this sport is that there is a salary cap and fixed roster size. Veteran OL usually do not stay as backups since there is always a need for OL around the league. If you have to pay a veteran as a backup the complaints come in that you are wasting cap space
Everyone thought he was an excellent pick at the time and that he would be a very good player. It hasn’t happened
No one has OL depth - you just hope that what you have can be serviceable
Easy to say need a vet to push him, however the reality of this sport is that there is a salary cap and fixed roster size. Veteran OL usually do not stay as backups since there is always a need for OL around the league. If you have to pay a veteran as a backup the complaints come in that you are wasting cap space
Everyone thought he was an excellent pick at the time and that he would be a very good player. It hasn’t happened
No one has OL depth - you just hope that what you have can be serviceable
You have to commit to it every year. You should draft at least 3 from the draft/UDFA. Lineman can be developed with a outstanding OL coach. You want to build a strong pipeline to avoid having to sign a Solder or give a second contract to WH as an example. Next year they need to probably invest a second rounder on a interior guy.
Lets say I concede your position, and even give you the second play. You specifically mentioned 2 plays and because of them, Hernandez was, and I quote, horrible. Not sure how many people on BBI think he's horrible. Maybe he's not what we thought he MIGHT be after his rookie season, but horrible?
RE: Are any of the new additions on the OL worth keeping?
Lets say I concede your position, and even give you the second play. You specifically mentioned 2 plays and because of them, Hernandez was, and I quote, horrible. Not sure how many people on BBI think he's horrible. Maybe he's not what we thought he MIGHT be after his rookie season, but horrible?
I get what you are saying and perhaps horrible is a bit much considering the overall state of our Oline BUT, he was a guy who we were counting on. He just doesn't play smart enough and with his lack of mobility (fluidity) he has become a liability. Truthfully, if we had Peart at RT and Thomas at LT with say either Gates or Lemieux in their spots I think Bresden, Skura and maybe even Price would be starting in his spot. His play has never improved and honestly he was a major culprit in a number of shots on Jones this past week.
I still think Hernandez might end up being the "long-term" (20-3 years of decency) at RG if/when we get some other pieces plugged in. I'm hopeful for OL this next draft, and maybe a vet FA who has some good gas in the tank. That might be fun for a bit.
Pettis has a big few weeks coming up. He’s a former 2nd rounder. There is no reason he can’t establish himself as a reliable possession WR and figure in the teams future.
Hernandez is Sy's favorite punching bag. I love the guy, enjoy his write ups, but I think he grades on a curve when it comes to Hernandez vis a vis the others. There is no way Hernandez was worse than Solder or Price. And I saw him miss the stunt, I saw Brown beat him. I also saw him move bodies in the run game and play very well against Fox and Da'Quon Jones in pass pro.
Hernandez is not perfect, but he's far from the worst on the line.
I know one thing, we expressed our opinions, gave a little to each
and clearly showed it is possible to not agree and still have a solid discourse. It is the exact opposite of what happens on most Jones threads.
We definitely need to address the Oline further with Quality, not quantity. If we can get a top notch Guard / Center in the draft (no later than rds 3 or 4) that would help greatly. I am not sure we can count on Gates coming back. Shane l. is still a bit of projection but he does provide some hope.
RE: I know one thing, we expressed our opinions, gave a little to each
and clearly showed it is possible to not agree and still have a solid discourse. It is the exact opposite of what happens on most Jones threads.
We definitely need to address the Oline further with Quality, not quantity. If we can get a top notch Guard / Center in the draft (no later than rds 3 or 4) that would help greatly. I am not sure we can count on Gates coming back. Shane l. is still a bit of projection but he does provide some hope.
I agree with this and the commentary the Giants should be drafting OL every year. This year, I believe they should be using at least 2 premium picks on OL, and probably 3, given they have 5 premium picks (two 1sts, one 2nd, and two 3rds).
There should be no higher charge to whoever the GM is than to infuse this line with as much talent as possible. Get an EDGE, sure. Get a DT, sure. But get this OL some talented players. I would not be upset at all if they drafted 4 OL (out of 11 picks), in fact, I'd advocate for it.
Pettis has a big few weeks coming up. He’s a former 2nd rounder. There is no reason he can’t establish himself as a reliable possession WR and figure in the teams future.
Hernandez is Sy's favorite punching bag. I love the guy, enjoy his write ups, but I think he grades on a curve when it comes to Hernandez vis a vis the others. There is no way Hernandez was worse than Solder or Price. And I saw him miss the stunt, I saw Brown beat him. I also saw him move bodies in the run game and play very well against Fox and Da'Quon Jones in pass pro.
Hernandez is not perfect, but he's far from the worst on the line.
Part of the absolute disappointment with Hernandez is that he was a second round pick. It's a massive fail they they didn't get a quality starter out of it. Misses like this set a team back years. Being optimistic about his development likely had them pass on players who would have stepped in and been better.
OL and Pass Rushers
OL and Pass Rushers
OL and Pass Rushers
OL and Pass Rushers
OL and Pass Rushers
======================
Trade down. Accumulate.
============
I'm hoping SY gets his wish about "statement games." He made similar comments after N.O. - not the same - but similar. I'm with prior posts from JonC- (not sure if he changed his mind), that G-MEN have no shot. For me-- this game forget about it as a Giants fan.
But Last year I thought Giants had no shot vs Eagles to win the game. In the NFL stranger things have happened. Hope I'm way wrong.
RE: Ojulari developing is very encouraging. As is X. McKinney.
Sy, I'm curious what you thought/think of the Golloday signing. Knowing that the Giants were hell bent on a WR in Round 1, di you think they should have signed an OL in FA rather than a WR?
I was ok with the Golladay signing. NYG needed a threat at WR and you can't be afraid to spend when a good player like this becomes available. The reservation I had revolved around the player's health history, not necessarily the idea of spending big bucks if that makes sense.
Was there an OL that could have been a better investment? Hindsight is 20/20...but the answer is yes. OG Joe Thuney (to KC), OC Corey Linsley (to LAC), OG Matt Feiler (to LAC) were available for similar if not cheaper cost.
Ellerson Smith has 2 weeks left on his clock, I'm assuming the Giants want him activated to aid in his development.
If there aren't any injuries between now and then, who from the OLB group do you move off the roster so Smith has a spot?
You can always wait and see if/when someone gets hurt. If everyone remains healthy, you are probably looking at Quincy Roche and Cam Brown fighting for their spot.
In your opinion if the Giants have a pick in the top 10 in next uears draft should they go Oline or Defensive front (DL or LB)?
Is the next draft deep at any position IYO?
I've spent most of may team on OL + DL when ti comes to detailed scouting. Our staff has assigned positions for the fall and then we start cross checking in December. I have a feel for other spots, but as of now I am really deep on just the OL/DL.
I see more depth along the OL than I do DL as of now. Tough to say at this point because of potential early declarations. If it were up to me in this moment? Spend a top 10 pick on a DE/OLB type (there will be 1 or 2 there that are GOOD) and go after talented OG in round 2. Depth lines up there nice.
but clinging for some hope. Is it possible Hernandez’s play could in any way be negatively impacted by the corpse of Nate Solder who has been lining up next to him?
They both have been equally awful on combo blocks and defending the stunts. For years. When I examine Hernandez, it is more about the lack of lower body flow, lack of reaction speed, and lack of sustainability in pass protection.
Pettis has a big few weeks coming up. He’s a former 2nd rounder. There is no reason he can’t establish himself as a reliable possession WR and figure in the teams future.
Hernandez is Sy's favorite punching bag. I love the guy, enjoy his write ups, but I think he grades on a curve when it comes to Hernandez vis a vis the others. There is no way Hernandez was worse than Solder or Price. And I saw him miss the stunt, I saw Brown beat him. I also saw him move bodies in the run game and play very well against Fox and Da'Quon Jones in pass pro.
Hernandez is not perfect, but he's far from the worst on the line.
He isn't the worst on the line, I never said that.
In this game, he was.
RE: RE: Ojulari developing is very encouraging. As is X. McKinney.
Sy, I'm curious what you thought/think of the Golloday signing. Knowing that the Giants were hell bent on a WR in Round 1, di you think they should have signed an OL in FA rather than a WR?
I was ok with the Golladay signing. NYG needed a threat at WR and you can't be afraid to spend when a good player like this becomes available. The reservation I had revolved around the player's health history, not necessarily the idea of spending big bucks if that makes sense.
Was there an OL that could have been a better investment? Hindsight is 20/20...but the answer is yes. OG Joe Thuney (to KC), OC Corey Linsley (to LAC), OG Matt Feiler (to LAC) were available for similar if not cheaper cost.
thanks Dave. Makes sense. Let's hope he can stay on the field. He looks like a difference maker when he plays.
was Graham not using him right? Most of the time before this week, he was mostly using bull rush and not being effective. However this week it seemed as if he was allowed to be let loose off the edge and was more productive.
was Graham not using him right? Most of the time before this week, he was mostly using bull rush and not being effective. However this week it seemed as if he was allowed to be let loose off the edge and was more productive.
He abused a rookie that, in my opinion, is not a NFL caliber player yet.
Good writeup. Can see that Leonard Williams and the other
defensive lineman are playing at a higher level in recent games. Some penetration versus running game, some quicker pressures and more penalties on opposing Olinemen.
And that goes a long way in helping Secondary who are sticking a bit closer and knocking down passes where they weren't even on the TV screen several games ago.
It would be nice to see same effort versus a better offense like Kansas City.
I also wanted Reddick in free agency and I could see the Giants expressing interest in him in free agency but they don't have a lot of cap room to get into a bidding war.
As for fixing the offensive line I would look to free agency to sign C Ted Karras as an option in the event that Gates isn't ready to return by camp which is likely. I would also re-sign Skura to a 1 year deal. I would like to see them draft an OL with one of their two 1st round picks plus adding another with one of their three day two picks.
The OL would look like this:
LT Thomas, 3rd round pick
LG Lemieux, Bredeson
C Gates, Karras
RG 1st round pick, Skura
RT Peart
I think the writing was on the wall for what Judge and company thought of the existing LBs when we drafted 5 in 2 years. Coughlin, Brown, Crowder, Ojulari, Elerson Smith, Blake Martinez, Reggie Ragland, Bernardrick McKinney have all been added in two years.
I think Skura and Price are a change as well, it's wide bodies who can pull and move and won't get you clobbered. I'm starting to see that DG and Judge have different talent evaluation criteria and it looks like Judge's way is creeping in.
Gettleman has devoted 24% of his draft selections to Linebacker / EDGE. The NFL average is 13% over the same four years (2018 - 2021).
And the amount of Draft and Free Agent resources he has devoted to the secondary is beyond crazy. Not to mention Gettleman has failed to re-build the O-line.
Oh, well. Next season Dave Gettleman can join BBI as the former GM of the NYG!
"Gettleman has devoted 24% of his draft selections to Linebacker / EDGE. The NFL average is 13% over the same four years (2018 - 2021)." is meaningless without weighting the picks. Many of them the last few years have been 6th and 7th rounders like Crowder and Coughlin who have represented good value for where they were chosen.
its because he switched the team from a 4-3 front to a 3-4, right?
I think the writing was on the wall for what Judge and company thought of the existing LBs when we drafted 5 in 2 years. Coughlin, Brown, Crowder, Ojulari, Elerson Smith, Blake Martinez, Reggie Ragland, Bernardrick McKinney have all been added in two years.
I think Skura and Price are a change as well, it's wide bodies who can pull and move and won't get you clobbered. I'm starting to see that DG and Judge have different talent evaluation criteria and it looks like Judge's way is creeping in.
Gettleman has devoted 24% of his draft selections to Linebacker / EDGE. The NFL average is 13% over the same four years (2018 - 2021).
And the amount of Draft and Free Agent resources he has devoted to the secondary is beyond crazy. Not to mention Gettleman has failed to re-build the O-line.
Oh, well. Next season Dave Gettleman can join BBI as the former GM of the NYG!
"Gettleman has devoted 24% of his draft selections to Linebacker / EDGE. The NFL average is 13% over the same four years (2018 - 2021)." is meaningless without weighting the picks. Many of them the last few years have been 6th and 7th rounders like Crowder and Coughlin who have represented good value for where they were chosen.
its because he switched the team from a 4-3 front to a 3-4, right?
Gettleman somehow forgot about how defenses work. A 3-4 for example is reliant on good linebackers to stop the run and rush the passer because the linemen are often two-gapping to free up the linebackers; none of the top linebackers for the great 80s run were drafted lower than the fourth round: Carson was a 4th rounder in '76, LT was a 1st rounder in '81, Banks was a 1st rounder in '84, and Reasons was a 4th in the same draft as Banks. Outside of possibly Ojulari in the 2nd round, the best linebackers since we've adopted the 3-4 have been acquired via free agency (Martinez, possibly Golden). Most of the other linebackers we've drafted since Gettleman got here have either underwhelmed (Carter, Ximines, possibly Crowder) or barely played (Cam Brown, Carter Coughlin)
I'd say switch back to the 4-3 since there's a number of players whose contracts are expiring or we can cut bait with and we wouldn't need a spot for another inside linebacker with Martinez.
Pettis has a big few weeks coming up. He’s a former 2nd rounder. There is no reason he can’t establish himself as a reliable possession WR and figure in the teams future.
Fans' POV on Hernandez have become a bit of an IQ test. He really hasn't been good, but DG acolytes and NYG pollyannas seem to think otherwise.
Is a great receiver, but we can all see he's not being used properly. He's a 6'4", contested catch king and he's being used for slants. How many down field chances has he gotten? I remember Jones hitting Board down the field for one, but don't remember one route where Jones had down to KG.
And I don't know if it has been highlighted, but it's worth repeating even if it has been:
Quote:
(1) Back in 2018, almost everyone had Darnold as the top quarterback in the class. I never saw it. No, I’m not patting myself on the back at all (I had Josh Rosen as QB1). I go back and examine my hits and misses every offseason to try and figure out where I went wrong and what I can do to improve my own scouting.
I love this. That's what sets legitimate professionals apart from blowhard dilettantes: the urge to continually improve. That includes owning up to mistakes and analyzing the thought process that led to them. This is sorely missing in most sports media (I'll leave the rest aside). So, kudos, Sy. I always enjoy your analysis and I'll appreciate it even more now.
Hernandez was absolutely putrid this past week. Solder is done, we all know that but Hernandez is much younger and in theory should be playing better at this stage and he clearly isn't. He constantly looks lost and I am sure the Staff knows this as well. Solder is a necessity right now, ie, we don't have a choice BUT Hernandez was counted on aid after all the injuries he is actually one of the biggest liabilities.
I like Pettis and I think we have a guy who can stick here for a while.
SY- have you ever seen a team that gets their RB tackled for a loss by the backside defender more than the Giants. I mean it happens so often that it must be partially play tip off and scheme deficient. I have never seen more backside tackles from guys who look untouched in the running game. Even in bunch formation we still somehow allow the backside guy to make contact behind the LOS. It is maddening.
We need to no longer go bunch unless we bring in a tackle or DL as an extra blocker. Our TE's are horrible and they aren't fooling anyone with the slip one guy through in the pattern.
When B.McKinney is up to speed, they can start creating some problems with blitz packages. Among other things, Crowder (the current 3-down LB) is not an effective blitzer. Get McKinney in there and you've got some kind of threat at ILB. He's an old school MLB in the Jeremiah Trotter mold.
Thanks!
I thought Jones played well considering that Golladay, Shepard, Toney, and Barkley were out, and his OL is makeshift at best. He protected the ball and went through his reads. As I have said, I want to see how Jones plays for the entire season before making any decision about him one way or another. Too many people are too excited or depressed about his future based on one or two games.
I agree that Hernandez was poor. He is part of the reason the Giants have had so much difficulty recognizing simple stunts, and his later mobility is poor. At this point, I wouldn’t resign him. Price also has that same latter problem IMO. He is too easily beaten by swim moves in pass protection. Solder simply isn’t an NFL player anymore. After being beaten early, Peart was solid.
The defense played very well. I agree it will be interesting to see if Roche gets more snaps at the expense of Carter or Ximines. I don’t expect the Giants to resign either of the latter two players. McKinney is a big upgrade over Ragland as you note.
Sy, I'm curious what you thought/think of the Golloday signing. Knowing that the Giants were hell bent on a WR in Round 1, di you think they should have signed an OL in FA rather than a WR?
(No shot @ sy, his work is incredible. Just nice to read after a win!)
Highly insightful, informative game review.
Will Hernandez is someone we all want to root for, but your analysis of his play probably means he will be somewhere else next season.
If there aren't any injuries between now and then, who from the OLB group do you move off the roster so Smith has a spot?
If there aren't any injuries between now and then, who from the OLB group do you move off the roster so Smith has a spot?
Denver needs LB's, hence their trade with the rams yesterday. If we could get a 7th rounder for Xman or Carter, I would take it. Neither has long-term written on them here and we might as well add more picks as we will need a LOT of young, cheap, backend guys for next season.
I’d say not bad at all so far from DJ.
I have one selfish question that may be way too early to ask, but Fordham has a very intriguing linebacker - Ryan Greenhagen. I watch their games and he jumps off the screen as a tackling machine with incredible instincts. A couple of weeks ago he was injured and will miss the rest of his senior season. He seems to me like one of those RFAs you bring into camp that could actually turn into a solid player. Interested to see if he makes it onto your radar.
Is the next draft deep at any position IYO?
NO.. Hernandez absolutely whiffed on two assignments that were clearly his responsibility.
I think Skura and Price are a change as well, it's wide bodies who can pull and move and won't get you clobbered. I'm starting to see that DG and Judge have different talent evaluation criteria and it looks like Judge's way is creeping in.
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but clinging for some hope. Is it possible Hernandez’s play could in any way be negatively impacted by the corpse of Nate Solder who has been lining up next to him?
NO.. Hernandez absolutely whiffed on two assignments that were clearly his responsibility.
This may be true, on its face. But there's more to it - communication is critical. So, while it's fun and easy to latch onto whipping boys on BBI, I'm not convinced we can so simply lay a "whiff" at the feet of one guy.
It's similar, to me, when a quarterback throws a ball to a spot nowhere near a receiver, whether it's intercepted or it just falls flat. Man, does the quarterback look bad. But what's mentioned much less often than it should be: did that receiver completely screw the pooch on his route? Where was he SUPPOSED to be? And did the quarterback deliver the ball to exactly that spot?
So many more factors involved in evaluating a play or plays than just what you see on the TV screen, or even in person, from a distance.
I think Skura and Price are a change as well, it's wide bodies who can pull and move and won't get you clobbered. I'm starting to see that DG and Judge have different talent evaluation criteria and it looks like Judge's way is creeping in.
Gettleman has devoted 24% of his draft selections to Linebacker / EDGE. The NFL average is 13% over the same four years (2018 - 2021).
And the amount of Draft and Free Agent resources he has devoted to the secondary is beyond crazy. Not to mention Gettleman has failed to re-build the O-line.
Oh, well. Next season Dave Gettleman can join BBI as the former GM of the NYG!
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In comment 15429791 Chris684 said:
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but clinging for some hope. Is it possible Hernandez’s play could in any way be negatively impacted by the corpse of Nate Solder who has been lining up next to him?
NO.. Hernandez absolutely whiffed on two assignments that were clearly his responsibility.
This may be true, on its face. But there's more to it - communication is critical. So, while it's fun and easy to latch onto whipping boys on BBI, I'm not convinced we can so simply lay a "whiff" at the feet of one guy.
It's similar, to me, when a quarterback throws a ball to a spot nowhere near a receiver, whether it's intercepted or it just falls flat. Man, does the quarterback look bad. But what's mentioned much less often than it should be: did that receiver completely screw the pooch on his route? Where was he SUPPOSED to be? And did the quarterback deliver the ball to exactly that spot?
So many more factors involved in evaluating a play or plays than just what you see on the TV screen, or even in person, from a distance.
I disagree here. It isn't communication when a stunt means you let your guy go (as the G) and the Tackle picks up and you take the stunting player who is now coming up the middle. Instead WH followed his guy right into Solder and they both whiffed that block while WH's responsibility (the lopping/stunting DL) has a free run at Jones.
WH was horrible- I stated as such in another thread before SY's review.
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I think the writing was on the wall for what Judge and company thought of the existing LBs when we drafted 5 in 2 years. Coughlin, Brown, Crowder, Ojulari, Elerson Smith, Blake Martinez, Reggie Ragland, Bernardrick McKinney have all been added in two years.
I think Skura and Price are a change as well, it's wide bodies who can pull and move and won't get you clobbered. I'm starting to see that DG and Judge have different talent evaluation criteria and it looks like Judge's way is creeping in.
Gettleman has devoted 24% of his draft selections to Linebacker / EDGE. The NFL average is 13% over the same four years (2018 - 2021).
And the amount of Draft and Free Agent resources he has devoted to the secondary is beyond crazy. Not to mention Gettleman has failed to re-build the O-line.
Oh, well. Next season Dave Gettleman can join BBI as the former GM of the NYG!
"Gettleman has devoted 24% of his draft selections to Linebacker / EDGE. The NFL average is 13% over the same four years (2018 - 2021)." is meaningless without weighting the picks. Many of them the last few years have been 6th and 7th rounders like Crowder and Coughlin who have represented good value for where they were chosen.
In response to jvm.
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you don't have enough information to make that judgment.
In response to jvm.
Sure I do go back and look at that play. It isn't Solder's responsibility on the stunting player as we would have to run through WH to get to that guy. So, common sense and general football knowledge says WH's responsibility was to pass his guy to Solder and then peel back and take the stunting player. WH didn't do that and chased his guy, running into Solder in the process and let the stunting player have a free run.
This isn't guess work or even close to the same issue you mentioned about an int and the real responsible party. There is no other way this play should have gone based on basic OL blocking schemes and techniques. WH was completely out of place- period.
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In comment 15429851 Joey in VA said:
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I think the writing was on the wall for what Judge and company thought of the existing LBs when we drafted 5 in 2 years. Coughlin, Brown, Crowder, Ojulari, Elerson Smith, Blake Martinez, Reggie Ragland, Bernardrick McKinney have all been added in two years.
I think Skura and Price are a change as well, it's wide bodies who can pull and move and won't get you clobbered. I'm starting to see that DG and Judge have different talent evaluation criteria and it looks like Judge's way is creeping in.
Gettleman has devoted 24% of his draft selections to Linebacker / EDGE. The NFL average is 13% over the same four years (2018 - 2021).
And the amount of Draft and Free Agent resources he has devoted to the secondary is beyond crazy. Not to mention Gettleman has failed to re-build the O-line.
Oh, well. Next season Dave Gettleman can join BBI as the former GM of the NYG!
"Gettleman has devoted 24% of his draft selections to Linebacker / EDGE. The NFL average is 13% over the same four years (2018 - 2021)." is meaningless without weighting the picks. Many of them the last few years have been 6th and 7th rounders like Crowder and Coughlin who have represented good value for where they were chosen.
Azeez Ojulari with the 50th pick may prove to be real good value, but Lorenzo Carter with 66th pick and Oshane Ximines with 95th pick probably not.
Also damning for DG and the Giants FO is that in this span they have not committed much resources to EDGE during FA and have missed out on some guys who have done really well in recent years like Shaq Barrett, Matt Judon, and as Sy mentions, Hasaan Reddick. Pass rushers aren't like OTs, good ones do shake loose in FA.
Giants need to look for guys who were given limited opportunities on teams that are loaded at EDGE. Or rebuilding teams looking to avoid long term financial commitments. Whereas a rebuilding team will want to keep a talented OT to help develop a QB, they might be more willing to let a talented pass rusher go.
Good news on Price. Finding a potential starter (s) or at least quality depth from all the additions will really help them focus on BPA with the 5 picks they have in the first 100.
Great news on Olijari and McKinney.
Everyone thought he was an excellent pick at the time and that he would be a very good player. It hasn’t happened
No one has OL depth - you just hope that what you have can be serviceable
Everyone thought he was an excellent pick at the time and that he would be a very good player. It hasn’t happened
No one has OL depth - you just hope that what you have can be serviceable
You have to commit to it every year. You should draft at least 3 from the draft/UDFA. Lineman can be developed with a outstanding OL coach. You want to build a strong pipeline to avoid having to sign a Solder or give a second contract to WH as an example. Next year they need to probably invest a second rounder on a interior guy.
Price has balance issues...needs ballet lessons
Price has balance issues...needs ballet lessons
Skura probably. As a backup, not a starter.
I get what you are saying and perhaps horrible is a bit much considering the overall state of our Oline BUT, he was a guy who we were counting on. He just doesn't play smart enough and with his lack of mobility (fluidity) he has become a liability. Truthfully, if we had Peart at RT and Thomas at LT with say either Gates or Lemieux in their spots I think Bresden, Skura and maybe even Price would be starting in his spot. His play has never improved and honestly he was a major culprit in a number of shots on Jones this past week.
Hernandez is Sy's favorite punching bag. I love the guy, enjoy his write ups, but I think he grades on a curve when it comes to Hernandez vis a vis the others. There is no way Hernandez was worse than Solder or Price. And I saw him miss the stunt, I saw Brown beat him. I also saw him move bodies in the run game and play very well against Fox and Da'Quon Jones in pass pro.
Hernandez is not perfect, but he's far from the worst on the line.
We definitely need to address the Oline further with Quality, not quantity. If we can get a top notch Guard / Center in the draft (no later than rds 3 or 4) that would help greatly. I am not sure we can count on Gates coming back. Shane l. is still a bit of projection but he does provide some hope.
We definitely need to address the Oline further with Quality, not quantity. If we can get a top notch Guard / Center in the draft (no later than rds 3 or 4) that would help greatly. I am not sure we can count on Gates coming back. Shane l. is still a bit of projection but he does provide some hope.
I agree with this and the commentary the Giants should be drafting OL every year. This year, I believe they should be using at least 2 premium picks on OL, and probably 3, given they have 5 premium picks (two 1sts, one 2nd, and two 3rds).
There should be no higher charge to whoever the GM is than to infuse this line with as much talent as possible. Get an EDGE, sure. Get a DT, sure. But get this OL some talented players. I would not be upset at all if they drafted 4 OL (out of 11 picks), in fact, I'd advocate for it.
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Pettis has a big few weeks coming up. He’s a former 2nd rounder. There is no reason he can’t establish himself as a reliable possession WR and figure in the teams future.
Hernandez is Sy's favorite punching bag. I love the guy, enjoy his write ups, but I think he grades on a curve when it comes to Hernandez vis a vis the others. There is no way Hernandez was worse than Solder or Price. And I saw him miss the stunt, I saw Brown beat him. I also saw him move bodies in the run game and play very well against Fox and Da'Quon Jones in pass pro.
Hernandez is not perfect, but he's far from the worst on the line.
Part of the absolute disappointment with Hernandez is that he was a second round pick. It's a massive fail they they didn't get a quality starter out of it. Misses like this set a team back years. Being optimistic about his development likely had them pass on players who would have stepped in and been better.
OL and Pass Rushers
OL and Pass Rushers
OL and Pass Rushers
OL and Pass Rushers
======================
Trade down. Accumulate.
============
I'm hoping SY gets his wish about "statement games." He made similar comments after N.O. - not the same - but similar. I'm with prior posts from JonC- (not sure if he changed his mind), that G-MEN have no shot. For me-- this game forget about it as a Giants fan.
But Last year I thought Giants had no shot vs Eagles to win the game. In the NFL stranger things have happened. Hope I'm way wrong.
Sy, I'm curious what you thought/think of the Golloday signing. Knowing that the Giants were hell bent on a WR in Round 1, di you think they should have signed an OL in FA rather than a WR?
I was ok with the Golladay signing. NYG needed a threat at WR and you can't be afraid to spend when a good player like this becomes available. The reservation I had revolved around the player's health history, not necessarily the idea of spending big bucks if that makes sense.
Was there an OL that could have been a better investment? Hindsight is 20/20...but the answer is yes. OG Joe Thuney (to KC), OC Corey Linsley (to LAC), OG Matt Feiler (to LAC) were available for similar if not cheaper cost.
He never improved the holes in his a game. When NFL coaches got some film on him, they knew what to expose and Hernandez just hasn't;t responded.
If there aren't any injuries between now and then, who from the OLB group do you move off the roster so Smith has a spot?
You can always wait and see if/when someone gets hurt. If everyone remains healthy, you are probably looking at Quincy Roche and Cam Brown fighting for their spot.
Is the next draft deep at any position IYO?
I've spent most of may team on OL + DL when ti comes to detailed scouting. Our staff has assigned positions for the fall and then we start cross checking in December. I have a feel for other spots, but as of now I am really deep on just the OL/DL.
I see more depth along the OL than I do DL as of now. Tough to say at this point because of potential early declarations. If it were up to me in this moment? Spend a top 10 pick on a DE/OLB type (there will be 1 or 2 there that are GOOD) and go after talented OG in round 2. Depth lines up there nice.
They both have been equally awful on combo blocks and defending the stunts. For years. When I examine Hernandez, it is more about the lack of lower body flow, lack of reaction speed, and lack of sustainability in pass protection.
So, no.
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Pettis has a big few weeks coming up. He’s a former 2nd rounder. There is no reason he can’t establish himself as a reliable possession WR and figure in the teams future.
Hernandez is Sy's favorite punching bag. I love the guy, enjoy his write ups, but I think he grades on a curve when it comes to Hernandez vis a vis the others. There is no way Hernandez was worse than Solder or Price. And I saw him miss the stunt, I saw Brown beat him. I also saw him move bodies in the run game and play very well against Fox and Da'Quon Jones in pass pro.
Hernandez is not perfect, but he's far from the worst on the line.
He isn't the worst on the line, I never said that.
In this game, he was.
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OL is going to be a problem for a while.
Sy, I'm curious what you thought/think of the Golloday signing. Knowing that the Giants were hell bent on a WR in Round 1, di you think they should have signed an OL in FA rather than a WR?
I was ok with the Golladay signing. NYG needed a threat at WR and you can't be afraid to spend when a good player like this becomes available. The reservation I had revolved around the player's health history, not necessarily the idea of spending big bucks if that makes sense.
Was there an OL that could have been a better investment? Hindsight is 20/20...but the answer is yes. OG Joe Thuney (to KC), OC Corey Linsley (to LAC), OG Matt Feiler (to LAC) were available for similar if not cheaper cost.
thanks Dave. Makes sense. Let's hope he can stay on the field. He looks like a difference maker when he plays.
Sure. But I wouldn't get too excited about that. You can say that about 40-50 second year players right now. Half will reach that level, at the most.
He needs to keep improving the skill set (reads, angles...etc). The goods are there, they need to be applied now.
He abused a rookie that, in my opinion, is not a NFL caliber player yet.
And that goes a long way in helping Secondary who are sticking a bit closer and knocking down passes where they weren't even on the TV screen several games ago.
It would be nice to see same effort versus a better offense like Kansas City.
As for fixing the offensive line I would look to free agency to sign C Ted Karras as an option in the event that Gates isn't ready to return by camp which is likely. I would also re-sign Skura to a 1 year deal. I would like to see them draft an OL with one of their two 1st round picks plus adding another with one of their three day two picks.
The OL would look like this:
LT Thomas, 3rd round pick
LG Lemieux, Bredeson
C Gates, Karras
RG 1st round pick, Skura
RT Peart
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In comment 15429851 Joey in VA said:
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I think the writing was on the wall for what Judge and company thought of the existing LBs when we drafted 5 in 2 years. Coughlin, Brown, Crowder, Ojulari, Elerson Smith, Blake Martinez, Reggie Ragland, Bernardrick McKinney have all been added in two years.
I think Skura and Price are a change as well, it's wide bodies who can pull and move and won't get you clobbered. I'm starting to see that DG and Judge have different talent evaluation criteria and it looks like Judge's way is creeping in.
Gettleman has devoted 24% of his draft selections to Linebacker / EDGE. The NFL average is 13% over the same four years (2018 - 2021).
And the amount of Draft and Free Agent resources he has devoted to the secondary is beyond crazy. Not to mention Gettleman has failed to re-build the O-line.
Oh, well. Next season Dave Gettleman can join BBI as the former GM of the NYG!
"Gettleman has devoted 24% of his draft selections to Linebacker / EDGE. The NFL average is 13% over the same four years (2018 - 2021)." is meaningless without weighting the picks. Many of them the last few years have been 6th and 7th rounders like Crowder and Coughlin who have represented good value for where they were chosen.
its because he switched the team from a 4-3 front to a 3-4, right?
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In comment 15429888 M.S. said:
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In comment 15429851 Joey in VA said:
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I think the writing was on the wall for what Judge and company thought of the existing LBs when we drafted 5 in 2 years. Coughlin, Brown, Crowder, Ojulari, Elerson Smith, Blake Martinez, Reggie Ragland, Bernardrick McKinney have all been added in two years.
I think Skura and Price are a change as well, it's wide bodies who can pull and move and won't get you clobbered. I'm starting to see that DG and Judge have different talent evaluation criteria and it looks like Judge's way is creeping in.
Gettleman has devoted 24% of his draft selections to Linebacker / EDGE. The NFL average is 13% over the same four years (2018 - 2021).
And the amount of Draft and Free Agent resources he has devoted to the secondary is beyond crazy. Not to mention Gettleman has failed to re-build the O-line.
Oh, well. Next season Dave Gettleman can join BBI as the former GM of the NYG!
"Gettleman has devoted 24% of his draft selections to Linebacker / EDGE. The NFL average is 13% over the same four years (2018 - 2021)." is meaningless without weighting the picks. Many of them the last few years have been 6th and 7th rounders like Crowder and Coughlin who have represented good value for where they were chosen.
its because he switched the team from a 4-3 front to a 3-4, right?
Gettleman somehow forgot about how defenses work. A 3-4 for example is reliant on good linebackers to stop the run and rush the passer because the linemen are often two-gapping to free up the linebackers; none of the top linebackers for the great 80s run were drafted lower than the fourth round: Carson was a 4th rounder in '76, LT was a 1st rounder in '81, Banks was a 1st rounder in '84, and Reasons was a 4th in the same draft as Banks. Outside of possibly Ojulari in the 2nd round, the best linebackers since we've adopted the 3-4 have been acquired via free agency (Martinez, possibly Golden). Most of the other linebackers we've drafted since Gettleman got here have either underwhelmed (Carter, Ximines, possibly Crowder) or barely played (Cam Brown, Carter Coughlin)
I'd say switch back to the 4-3 since there's a number of players whose contracts are expiring or we can cut bait with and we wouldn't need a spot for another inside linebacker with Martinez.
Fans' POV on Hernandez have become a bit of an IQ test. He really hasn't been good, but DG acolytes and NYG pollyannas seem to think otherwise.
Of course the other side of the debate would say that they would want a stable and competent cornerback opposite Bradberry.
Giants won...but they still need to fire Garrett.
I love this. That's what sets legitimate professionals apart from blowhard dilettantes: the urge to continually improve. That includes owning up to mistakes and analyzing the thought process that led to them. This is sorely missing in most sports media (I'll leave the rest aside). So, kudos, Sy. I always enjoy your analysis and I'll appreciate it even more now.