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Daniel Jones pass rankings after 7 Weeks

Producer : 10/26/2021 11:25 am
Yesterday, during numerous discussions it was said the "question was settled" and Jones is the answer, and Daniel Jones is "near elite".

For everybody's reference here are Daniel Jones pass rankings after 7 Weeks:

Y/A: 21st (last week: 18)
QBR: 22nd (lw: 22)
QB Rating 26th (lw: 26)
TD% 32nd (lw: 32)
sack% 16th (lw: 13)


Red Zone Passing

Cmp% Inside 20: 34% worst among starting QBs (lw: 27%)
Cmp% Inside 10: 30% 29th among starting QBs (lw: 14%)
lol...  
Johnny5 : 10/26/2021 11:26 am : link
... this thread should also go well.
You are tiresome  
jvm52106 : 10/26/2021 11:28 am : link
and quite frankly lacking in any sort of real football acumen.

There are few if any QB's that would have significant stats with this team right now without 4 of its TOP playmakers and on its 6th or 7th OL combination.

Jones has cut down turnovers (his biggest liability). He has done what is asked of him and has held the offense together.

Nothing else matters right now without other pieces in place.

You are using stats to fit your narrative and then ignoring stats when it works against you.
Wouldn’t TDs bring up his QBR?  
Simms11 : 10/26/2021 11:30 am : link
Problem I see is primarily Redzone. Is it play design, execution or failure on QBs part? Or all three? I believe he has 5 TDs through 7 weeks?! Not a good stat from a starting QB. His other numbers appear to be above average. YPA would also go up with Golladay and Toney in the lineup IMO. Some misleading stats.
Someone inform Jones to hire a security team.  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/26/2021 11:30 am : link
This guy is a fucking obsessed creep.
Nobody credible  
Mike in NY : 10/26/2021 11:30 am : link
Has said that Jones is a "near elite" QB
This is sad...  
Everyone Relax : 10/26/2021 11:31 am : link
I hope you have something in your life that bring you some joy because sports clearly aint it.
RE: You are tiresome  
Producer : 10/26/2021 11:33 am : link
In comment 15429886 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
and quite frankly lacking in any sort of real football acumen.

There are few if any QB's that would have significant stats with this team right now without 4 of its TOP playmakers and on its 6th or 7th OL combination.

Jones has cut down turnovers (his biggest liability). He has done what is asked of him and has held the offense together.

Nothing else matters right now without other pieces in place.

You are using stats to fit your narrative and then ignoring stats when it works against you.


I am just posting stats, as I did last week. If they go up and get better, great. I will happily post the same stats. I don't have a *narrative*. These are objective measures by which we judge QB performance.
I thought the  
BigBlueJ : 10/26/2021 11:34 am : link
Eli years were bad. It always gets worse never better. Life lesson.
None of that matters man!  
Debaser : 10/26/2021 11:35 am : link
He’s a fine young man who can make plays like Odell catches and win 1/4 games. Sure this team sucks and he has it done the kind of things you would normally expect QBs to do in their third year like audible and throw fades into the end Zone and thing s like that but hey I’m used to watching a good team for years devolve into a shit team ; but at least he gives me entertainment once every 3-4 games and those are someone else’s fault anyways... my only fear seriously is that Mara would use this as an excuse to be happy with mediocre play at best since everyone seems by to love this guy despite not winning anything and playing prettt bad.
RE: RE: You are tiresome  
jvm52106 : 10/26/2021 11:35 am : link
In comment 15429898 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15429886 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


and quite frankly lacking in any sort of real football acumen.

There are few if any QB's that would have significant stats with this team right now without 4 of its TOP playmakers and on its 6th or 7th OL combination.

Jones has cut down turnovers (his biggest liability). He has done what is asked of him and has held the offense together.

Nothing else matters right now without other pieces in place.

You are using stats to fit your narrative and then ignoring stats when it works against you.



I am just posting stats, as I did last week. If they go up and get better, great. I will happily post the same stats. I don't have a *narrative*. These are objective measures by which we judge QB performance.


You do have a narrative, you hate Jones and make sure to post things that you feel PROVE your belief. The fact you said Elite, when NOBODY here has said that, proves my point.

RE: RE: You are tiresome  
Mike in NY : 10/26/2021 11:36 am : link
In comment 15429898 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15429886 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


and quite frankly lacking in any sort of real football acumen.

There are few if any QB's that would have significant stats with this team right now without 4 of its TOP playmakers and on its 6th or 7th OL combination.

Jones has cut down turnovers (his biggest liability). He has done what is asked of him and has held the offense together.

Nothing else matters right now without other pieces in place.

You are using stats to fit your narrative and then ignoring stats when it works against you.



I am just posting stats, as I did last week. If they go up and get better, great. I will happily post the same stats. I don't have a *narrative*. These are objective measures by which we judge QB performance.


Except they are not objective measures and many are tied to each other. For example, QB rating is impacted by Y/A and TD%. It also doesn't take into account garbage time versus plays when the outcome is more in doubt. It does not factor in braindead play calling. Who in their bright mind thinks a rollout with Evan Engram as your only target on that side is a good idea besides Jason Garrett?
Objective - no agenda?  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 10/26/2021 11:36 am : link
What a load. So tiresome.
Is a ceiling of 6-15 near elite?  
Essex : 10/26/2021 11:37 am : link
Did anyone say he is playing at an elite level now. We are making projections. You need to really stop making strawman arguments.
I really hate when fans  
Beezer : 10/26/2021 11:37 am : link
make declarative statements based on stats, alone.

We should never get too high or too low. Most young quarterbacks - Jones being one - have ups and downs. The vast majority of us love Eli ... but the vast majority of us realize he had his ups and downs throughout. He was a scrub some days. He was elite others.
Producer's stats  
Everyone Relax : 10/26/2021 11:37 am : link
Weeks which Jones and Giants play well: 1.8 posts/thread most likely pointing out 2 errant passes.

Weeks which Jones and Giants dont play well: 67 posts/thread, 18 new threads with "Jones" in the subject line
......  
Route 9 : 10/26/2021 11:41 am : link
I like it. Keep posting.
This guy wants to work for  
slickwilly : 10/26/2021 11:42 am : link
PFF
RE: RE: RE: You are tiresome  
Section331 : 10/26/2021 11:44 am : link
In comment 15429906 Mike in NY said:
Quote:

Except they are not objective measures and many are tied to each other. For example, QB rating is impacted by Y/A and TD%. It also doesn't take into account garbage time versus plays when the outcome is more in doubt. It does not factor in braindead play calling. Who in their bright mind thinks a rollout with Evan Engram as your only target on that side is a good idea besides Jason Garrett?


Stats aren't objective measures? But your assumptive assertions about playcalling are? Look, at some point, Jones is going to have to start producing and producing with consistency. It's always something with you guys - his OL sucks, his WR's suck, his OC sucks. It's everyone's fault but his.

Top QB's get drafted onto bad teams, welcome to the NFL. Gardner Minshew - a 6th round pick, not the 6th pick in the draft - was on pace for a 4,500 yard, 32 TD, 10 INT season last year before getting hurt. And that was after an excellent rookie season. His best WR was some guy named Laviska Shenault Jr, who I'm sure you won't be telling your grandkids about. His OL sucked. He was still able to produce those "unobjective measures" called stats.

But maybe he just had a better OC.
Yes  
mittenedman : 10/26/2021 11:45 am : link
All with the worst OLine and skill players in the NFL.

What's your point?
RE: Producer's stats  
BigBlueJ : 10/26/2021 11:46 am : link
In comment 15429912 Everyone Relax said:
Quote:
Weeks which Jones and Giants play well: 1.8 posts/thread most likely pointing out 2 errant passes.

Weeks which Jones and Giants dont play well: 67 posts/thread, 18 new threads with "Jones" in the subject line


This is awesome.
RE: This guy wants to work for  
BigBlueJ : 10/26/2021 11:47 am : link
In comment 15429916 slickwilly said:
Quote:
PFF


Actually PFF is high on Daniel Jones now, that is why he does not include their grade.
Has Producer ever posted anything on bbi that wasn't about Jones?  
Strahan91 : 10/26/2021 11:47 am : link
Talk about obsessed...
RE: Wouldn’t TDs bring up his QBR?  
BillT : 10/26/2021 11:48 am : link
In comment 15429889 Simms11 said:
Quote:
Problem I see is primarily Redzone. Is it play design, execution or failure on QBs part? Or all three? I believe he has 5 TDs through 7 weeks?! Not a good stat from a starting QB. His other numbers appear to be above average. YPA would also go up with Golladay and Toney in the lineup IMO. Some misleading stats.

It’s none of the three. We can’t pass in the red zone because we can’t run in the red zone . Brady said that was a red zone key last night with Peyton and Eli.
RE: RE: This guy wants to work for  
Producer : 10/26/2021 11:48 am : link
In comment 15429928 BigBlueJ said:
Quote:
In comment 15429916 slickwilly said:


Quote:


PFF



Actually PFF is high on Daniel Jones now, that is why he does not include their grade.


If you want to provide me their weekly rank of QBs I will gladly include it in my weekly update. I don't have that info, but I believe their overall rank of Jones is presently somewhere between 15 and 20.
RE: RE: RE: RE: You are tiresome  
jvm52106 : 10/26/2021 11:50 am : link
In comment 15429919 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 15429906 Mike in NY said:


Quote:



Except they are not objective measures and many are tied to each other. For example, QB rating is impacted by Y/A and TD%. It also doesn't take into account garbage time versus plays when the outcome is more in doubt. It does not factor in braindead play calling. Who in their bright mind thinks a rollout with Evan Engram as your only target on that side is a good idea besides Jason Garrett?



Stats aren't objective measures? But your assumptive assertions about playcalling are? Look, at some point, Jones is going to have to start producing and producing with consistency. It's always something with you guys - his OL sucks, his WR's suck, his OC sucks. It's everyone's fault but his.

Top QB's get drafted onto bad teams, welcome to the NFL. Gardner Minshew - a 6th round pick, not the 6th pick in the draft - was on pace for a 4,500 yard, 32 TD, 10 INT season last year before getting hurt. And that was after an excellent rookie season. His best WR was some guy named Laviska Shenault Jr, who I'm sure you won't be telling your grandkids about. His OL sucked. He was still able to produce those "unobjective measures" called stats.

But maybe he just had a better OC.


Section you lose yoru argument when you look at the talent the Jags had at WR and RB. DJ Chark had a big year, Robinson had a big year- does that mean he was better than Barkley as a RB?, Shenault was there.. The Jags sucked as a team but they had weapons. Stop the bullshit- yes stats sometimes are meaning less by themselves and no QB elevates the 6th or 7th line combo, pls elevate the RB position, plus elevate the WR's who are down their top 3 and sometimes 4 guys- all at the same time.

You are asking a QB to essentially elevate every position on the Offense, at the same time... Come on, be realistic. I am fine with doubts about Jones but you can't bash the guy when he does his part..

that jones guy is  
NotIraInSI : 10/26/2021 11:55 am : link
a riddle wrapped in mystery inside an enigma.
RE: RE: RE: RE: You are tiresome  
Debaser : 10/26/2021 11:55 am : link
In comment 15429919 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 15429906 Mike in NY said:


Quote:



Except they are not objective measures and many are tied to each other. For example, QB rating is impacted by Y/A and TD%. It also doesn't take into account garbage time versus plays when the outcome is more in doubt. It does not factor in braindead play calling. Who in their bright mind thinks a rollout with Evan Engram as your only target on that side is a good idea besides Jason Garrett?



Stats aren't objective measures? But your assumptive assertions about playcalling are? Look, at some point, Jones is going to have to start producing and producing with consistency. It's always something with you guys - his OL sucks, his WR's suck, his OC sucks. It's everyone's fault but his.

Top QB's get drafted onto bad teams, welcome to the NFL. Gardner Minshew - a 6th round pick, not the 6th pick in the draft - was on pace for a 4,500 yard, 32 TD, 10 INT season last year before getting hurt. And that was after an excellent rookie season. His best WR was some guy named Laviska Shenault Jr, who I'm sure you won't be telling your grandkids about. His OL sucked. He was still able to produce those "unobjective measures" called stats.

But maybe he just had a better OC.


He was also traded for a 6th to philly who made him a third stringer and not even active on their roster. So much for the “well someone would have made him a starter by now argument “. It depends sometimes on who the bozos are picking the starters
RE: Producer's stats  
JerseyCityJoe : 10/26/2021 11:56 am : link
In comment 15429912 Everyone Relax said:
Quote:
Weeks which Jones and Giants play well: 1.8 posts/thread most likely pointing out 2 errant passes.

Weeks which Jones and Giants dont play well: 67 posts/thread, 18 new threads with "Jones" in the subject line


Bingo
It's hilarioius.  
mittenedman : 10/26/2021 11:57 am : link
Injured group of musical chairs at WR & TE. New group every week. Always a mix of rusty, injured and practice squadders he has little chemistry with.

Barkley first rusty as hell, then gets injured again almost the exact moment he returns to credible form. So it's musical chairs at RB too.

And - oh yeah: the OLine is the usual mess again.

And - oh yeah: he's playing in a scheme getting ripped from every corner of the NFL, Giants people or not.

BUT BE A TOP 10 QB JONES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's getting to the point where you just don't understand football. Everything around Jones has been dysfunctional again this year, and the results won't be good. And they aren't. Jones has actually played well given the circumstances and a lot of smart QB analysts see that.
RE: Someone inform Jones to hire a security team.  
Producer : 10/26/2021 11:58 am : link
In comment 15429890 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
This guy is a fucking obsessed creep.


At what point in life did you come to the conclusion that banal discussion of a public figure or athlete was a threat directed at them personally? It would seem you are having trouble making distinctions between conversation and threats. When you direct hostile epithets my way you are engaging in the anti-social practice of threatening someone.

If these distinctions are hard for you, I would be happy to recommend a therapist or psychiatrist to help you sort things out.
typical fantasy football analysis, no accounting for the team or  
Victor in CT : 10/26/2021 12:00 pm : link
circumstances. I'll just reprint Sy56 analysis:

"Daniel Jones: 23/33 – 203 yards / 1 TD / 0 INT / 95.9 RAT

Jones also added 28 yards on 8 carries and caught a pass for 16 yards. So, 247 total yards with a score. Jones responded very well coming off last week’s debacle against the Rams. This is now the 5th game out of 7 (including vs DAL where he only played a half) where Jones finished with a QB rating over 90. He protected the ball, went through his reads well, and made some tough plays with his legs. Jones was without 3 of his top 4 receivers, his top running back, and multiple starting offensive linemen. Only Dante Pettis was getting plus-separation all afternoon, yet he still completed nearly 70% of his passes. Really solid effort full of good decisions in a tough situation."
RE: RE: RE: RE: You are tiresome  
Thunderstruck27 : 10/26/2021 12:00 pm : link
In comment 15429919 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 15429906 Mike in NY said:


Quote:



Except they are not objective measures and many are tied to each other. For example, QB rating is impacted by Y/A and TD%. It also doesn't take into account garbage time versus plays when the outcome is more in doubt. It does not factor in braindead play calling. Who in their bright mind thinks a rollout with Evan Engram as your only target on that side is a good idea besides Jason Garrett?



Stats aren't objective measures? But your assumptive assertions about playcalling are? Look, at some point, Jones is going to have to start producing and producing with consistency. It's always something with you guys - his OL sucks, his WR's suck, his OC sucks. It's everyone's fault but his.

Top QB's get drafted onto bad teams, welcome to the NFL. Gardner Minshew - a 6th round pick, not the 6th pick in the draft - was on pace for a 4,500 yard, 32 TD, 10 INT season last year before getting hurt. And that was after an excellent rookie season. His best WR was some guy named Laviska Shenault Jr, who I'm sure you won't be telling your grandkids about. His OL sucked. He was still able to produce those "unobjective measures" called stats.

But maybe he just had a better OC.


LOL maybe it is everyone elses fault...is that so difficult to grasp? Shanault and Chark would easily be our 2 best WRs this week. Other than Galloday(possibly Toney?) they would be the best WRs on this team. Don't forget that Minshew had Fournette and Robinson as his RBs...both consistently better that what we've shoved out there in our backfield. Our TE's are probably equally as shit.
RE: RE: RE: RE: You are tiresome  
Strahan91 : 10/26/2021 12:00 pm : link
In comment 15429919 Section331 said:
Quote:

Stats aren't objective measures? But your assumptive assertions about playcalling are? Look, at some point, Jones is going to have to start producing and producing with consistency. It's always something with you guys - his OL sucks, his WR's suck, his OC sucks. It's everyone's fault but his.

Top QB's get drafted onto bad teams, welcome to the NFL. Gardner Minshew - a 6th round pick, not the 6th pick in the draft - was on pace for a 4,500 yard, 32 TD, 10 INT season last year before getting hurt. And that was after an excellent rookie season. His best WR was some guy named Laviska Shenault Jr, who I'm sure you won't be telling your grandkids about. His OL sucked. He was still able to produce those "unobjective measures" called stats.

But maybe he just had a better OC.

Go look at Brady's stats in 2019 with little skill position talent and an average OL vs 2020 and 2021 with top skill position guys and OL and tell me it doesn't matter...
I enjoy reading the hand you are playing  
UConn4523 : 10/26/2021 12:00 pm : link
acting dumb and innocent, its something special to witness. You are definitely the victim.
RE: It's hilarioius.  
Producer : 10/26/2021 12:01 pm : link
In comment 15429947 mittenedman said:
Quote:
Injured group of musical chairs at WR & TE. New group every week. Always a mix of rusty, injured and practice squadders he has little chemistry with.

Barkley first rusty as hell, then gets injured again almost the exact moment he returns to credible form. So it's musical chairs at RB too.

And - oh yeah: the OLine is the usual mess again.

And - oh yeah: he's playing in a scheme getting ripped from every corner of the NFL, Giants people or not.

BUT BE A TOP 10 QB JONES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's getting to the point where you just don't understand football. Everything around Jones has been dysfunctional again this year, and the results won't be good. And they aren't. Jones has actually played well given the circumstances and a lot of smart QB analysts see that.


It seems there is always an excuse. Excuses for Eli's poor play his final two years. And now excuses every year for Jones. Other QBs overcome problems, the great ones put up numbers. Jones is not the only QB to face a myriad of problems.
Jones was the NFC Offensive Player of the Week....  
MOOPS : 10/26/2021 12:01 pm : link
in week 4. One of only 5 players to be awarded this honor in 2021.
RE: I enjoy reading the hand you are playing  
Producer : 10/26/2021 12:06 pm : link
In comment 15429956 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
acting dumb and innocent, its something special to witness. You are definitely the victim.


I'm not acting in any particular manner. the numbers speak for themselves. If he improves dramatically, as many of you promise, I will keep posting. I think it is telling that a simple list of stats draws such hostility. Is that a normal reaction on a football message board over a discussion of the stats of the starting QB? Why can't we discuss his performance metrics without attacking the OP.

I don't call anybody a moron, in life. I don't threaten people, online or IRL. I don't tell lies and distortions about people's actions or positions. It's weird that people here feel it is ok, and others cheer it on. Many here are acting like self-righteous bullies. That's what is fascinating. And you also seem ok with it.
If you can't see it then you can't see it...  
Amtoft : 10/26/2021 12:06 pm : link
If you don't see a fiery hard working guy that is a leader then you can't see it. If you don't see a QB that worked to fix his biggest issue then you can't see it. If you don't see a guy fighting to win games then you can't see it. If you can't see a guy playing without his top 3 WRs, Starting RB, with a back up LT, Backup backup LG, backup Center, Backup RT that is out there laying it out for a one handed catch then you can't see it.

In all honestly if the Giants had Barkley, Golladay, Shepard, Toney, Thomas, Lemieux, and Gates... How much better do you think he would have done than 70% completion over 200 yards 1 TD and no turnovers while also rushing and catching a pass?

Again if you can't see it then hey you can't see it.
Producer  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/26/2021 12:08 pm : link
One-trick ponies usually quickly wear out their welcome on BBI.

So Mr statistician  
Stu11 : 10/26/2021 12:08 pm : link
Wanna take a guess at Pat Mahomes stats the past 3 games plus last year's SB when he was running for his life on every play?
Just for shits and giggles I looked it up:
60% comp %
4/7 td-int
4 fumbles (2 lost)
66.47 passer rating
And that was with Kelce and T Hill possibly the 2 most dynamic guys at their position in the whole league and also helped greatly by the WFTgame and their bottom 4 defense in the league.
See what happens when you try and make plays with 1000 lbs of angry defensive lineman on top of you every play?
RE: If you can't see it then you can't see it...  
Producer : 10/26/2021 12:09 pm : link
In comment 15429970 Amtoft said:
Quote:
If you don't see a fiery hard working guy that is a leader then you can't see it. If you don't see a QB that worked to fix his biggest issue then you can't see it. If you don't see a guy fighting to win games then you can't see it. If you can't see a guy playing without his top 3 WRs, Starting RB, with a back up LT, Backup backup LG, backup Center, Backup RT that is out there laying it out for a one handed catch then you can't see it.

In all honestly if the Giants had Barkley, Golladay, Shepard, Toney, Thomas, Lemieux, and Gates... How much better do you think he would have done than 70% completion over 200 yards 1 TD and no turnovers while also rushing and catching a pass?

Again if you can't see it then hey you can't see it.


Hard work has nothing to do with it. A lot of guys who play QB work hard. It's about talent and ability. And Daniel Jones has shown through 2 and a half seasons that he cannot perform with the best at the position. maybe he will get better, but likely he will not.

Don't you want the NY Giants to have the best QB possible, and not just some jag that Gettleman had a goofy feeling about?
No QB overcomes a bottom ranked line  
Tuckrule : 10/26/2021 12:10 pm : link
He has zero run game. He’s the leading rusher on the team!

You sound so stupid throwing out these numgwrs with no context. It’s really sad you keep fighting this fight along with go terps and say this doesn’t matter. That doesn’t matter. Good qbs overcome this. THEY DO NOT

Brady looked done with the pats. People said it’s over. Somehow he goes to the Bucs and wins a fucking ring. Why? He has a great line and great skill guys.

Mahomes line falls apart and somehow he’s back to being normal. They have 1 more win than the giants. Context matters. This is not baseball where it’s you vs the pitcher and you can point to batting average and slugging percentage.
you can call it whatever you want  
UConn4523 : 10/26/2021 12:10 pm : link
the thread isn't worth a serious response. Enjoy talking with whoever bites, though.
RE: RE: If you can't see it then you can't see it...  
Amtoft : 10/26/2021 12:12 pm : link
In comment 15429976 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15429970 Amtoft said:


Quote:


If you don't see a fiery hard working guy that is a leader then you can't see it. If you don't see a QB that worked to fix his biggest issue then you can't see it. If you don't see a guy fighting to win games then you can't see it. If you can't see a guy playing without his top 3 WRs, Starting RB, with a back up LT, Backup backup LG, backup Center, Backup RT that is out there laying it out for a one handed catch then you can't see it.

In all honestly if the Giants had Barkley, Golladay, Shepard, Toney, Thomas, Lemieux, and Gates... How much better do you think he would have done than 70% completion over 200 yards 1 TD and no turnovers while also rushing and catching a pass?

Again if you can't see it then hey you can't see it.



Hard work has nothing to do with it. A lot of guys who play QB work hard. It's about talent and ability. And Daniel Jones has shown through 2 and a half seasons that he cannot perform with the best at the position. maybe he will get better, but likely he will not.

Don't you want the NY Giants to have the best QB possible, and not just some jag that Gettleman had a goofy feeling about?


As I stated... YOU can't see it. I noticed you didn't answer my question. So the new question is ... do you just want to be right and blind? Because right now your are wrong and blind.
Jones is doing pretty well  
Batenhorst7 : 10/26/2021 12:12 pm : link
The problem was the inability for the D to stop anyone or pressure their QB, that changed big time this past week

Jones is hampered by a very conservative play caller and an Oline that was not enabling a running game or giving Jones much time to sit in the pocket

The team seems to have caught fire in Carolina- nothing could be finer

Lets see if this is the start of something, the season isnt even half over
RE: Producer  
Producer : 10/26/2021 12:13 pm : link
In comment 15429973 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
One-trick ponies usually quickly wear out their welcome on BBI.


Eric, are you ordering me not to post Jones' weekly ranks? If you say so, I will refrain from doing it. You are in charge.

In my defense I have rarely started any threads on Jones, I think just two since the season started, and I have started many NFT threads and survivor pool threads. Just because people here accuse me of obsessively starting Jones threads doesn't make it true.
RE: RE: Producer  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/26/2021 12:14 pm : link
In comment 15429983 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15429973 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


One-trick ponies usually quickly wear out their welcome on BBI.




Eric, are you ordering me not to post Jones' weekly ranks? If you say so, I will refrain from doing it. You are in charge.

In my defense I have rarely started any threads on Jones, I think just two since the season started, and I have started many NFT threads and survivor pool threads. Just because people here accuse me of obsessively starting Jones threads doesn't make it true.


The only thing I ever see you post is how much Daniel Jones sucks, even when he plays well.

You either have an unhealthy obsession with Jones being the anti-Christ or you're trolling.

My point to you is people are quickly tuning you out.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: You are tiresome  
Section331 : 10/26/2021 12:14 pm : link
In comment 15429955 Strahan91 said:
Quote:

Go look at Brady's stats in 2019 with little skill position talent and an average OL vs 2020 and 2021 with top skill position guys and OL and tell me it doesn't matter...


You're not helping yourself by bringing up Brady in a Daniel Jones discussion. I already made an apt comparison, or are you going to argue that the 1-15 Jaguars had a better supporting cast?
RE: RE: RE: If you can't see it then you can't see it...  
Producer : 10/26/2021 12:15 pm : link
In comment 15429980 Amtoft said:
Quote:
In comment 15429976 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15429970 Amtoft said:


Quote:


If you don't see a fiery hard working guy that is a leader then you can't see it. If you don't see a QB that worked to fix his biggest issue then you can't see it. If you don't see a guy fighting to win games then you can't see it. If you can't see a guy playing without his top 3 WRs, Starting RB, with a back up LT, Backup backup LG, backup Center, Backup RT that is out there laying it out for a one handed catch then you can't see it.

In all honestly if the Giants had Barkley, Golladay, Shepard, Toney, Thomas, Lemieux, and Gates... How much better do you think he would have done than 70% completion over 200 yards 1 TD and no turnovers while also rushing and catching a pass?

Again if you can't see it then hey you can't see it.



Hard work has nothing to do with it. A lot of guys who play QB work hard. It's about talent and ability. And Daniel Jones has shown through 2 and a half seasons that he cannot perform with the best at the position. maybe he will get better, but likely he will not.

Don't you want the NY Giants to have the best QB possible, and not just some jag that Gettleman had a goofy feeling about?



As I stated... YOU can't see it. I noticed you didn't answer my question. So the new question is ... do you just want to be right and blind? Because right now your are wrong and blind.


I think my intention is fairly obvious. I want the Giants to have a great QB. Right now I don't think that's Jones and the numbers back up that position. I would love it if Jones became Burrow, or Herbert, or Mahomes, or Brady.
Producer  
Archer : 10/26/2021 12:18 pm : link
What happens to the stats that you use if you remove the game against the Rams ?

Also stats can be misleading and cannot be viewed in a vacuum.

Prior to last week Jones has had only (7) pass plays within the 10 yard zone and only one in the endzone.
Jones has had only (22) passes within 20 yards.

The lack of opportunity is related to poor play calling not Jones ability.



Better stats are those that dig deeper and address opportunity, likely to be successful plays, etc.
Those include Pro Football Reference NFL advanced QB stats ,
Pro Football Focus advanced metrics,
RE: RE: RE: Producer  
Producer : 10/26/2021 12:21 pm : link
In comment 15429986 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15429983 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15429973 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


One-trick ponies usually quickly wear out their welcome on BBI.




Eric, are you ordering me not to post Jones' weekly ranks? If you say so, I will refrain from doing it. You are in charge.

In my defense I have rarely started any threads on Jones, I think just two since the season started, and I have started many NFT threads and survivor pool threads. Just because people here accuse me of obsessively starting Jones threads doesn't make it true.



The only thing I ever see you post is how much Daniel Jones sucks, even when he plays well.

You either have an unhealthy obsession with Jones being the anti-Christ or you're trolling.

My point to you is people are quickly tuning you out.


ok. thanks for the warning. I was planning to post Jones' weekly ranks, as I did last week and this week, whether they are good or bad, but it seems I risk banishment if I do so, so I will refrain from doing it.

I don't agree that discussing the QBs overall performance is trolling or that it is akin to calling Jones the ant-Christ, but this is your site, and if you want to admonish me while ignoring folks who clearly cross the line, that is your prerogative.

Thanks for the warning, sir.
RE: Producer  
Producer : 10/26/2021 12:24 pm : link
In comment 15429995 Archer said:
Quote:
What happens to the stats that you use if you remove the game against the Rams ?

Also stats can be misleading and cannot be viewed in a vacuum.

Prior to last week Jones has had only (7) pass plays within the 10 yard zone and only one in the endzone.
Jones has had only (22) passes within 20 yards.

The lack of opportunity is related to poor play calling not Jones ability.



Better stats are those that dig deeper and address opportunity, likely to be successful plays, etc.
Those include Pro Football Reference NFL advanced QB stats ,
Pro Football Focus advanced metrics,


Well if you remove the Rams game it gets much better, of course. But it will for every QB if you remove their worst game. Should we ONLY remove Jones' worst game, and not others? That's the very definition of grading on a curve.

I would be open to including any stats in a weekly update, but I won't be continuing this effort, as I have been warned by the site leadership that they view posting our QBs weekly rankings as trolling.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Producer  
Thunderstruck27 : 10/26/2021 12:26 pm : link
In comment 15429999 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15429986 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


In comment 15429983 Producer said:

Quote:


In comment 15429973 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


One-trick ponies usually quickly wear out their welcome on BBI.




Eric, are you ordering me not to post Jones' weekly ranks? If you say so, I will refrain from doing it. You are in charge.

In my defense I have rarely started any threads on Jones, I think just two since the season started, and I have started many NFT threads and survivor pool threads. Just because people here accuse me of obsessively starting Jones threads doesn't make it true.



The only thing I ever see you post is how much Daniel Jones sucks, even when he plays well.

You either have an unhealthy obsession with Jones being the anti-Christ or you're trolling.

My point to you is people are quickly tuning you out.



ok. thanks for the warning. I was planning to post Jones' weekly ranks, as I did last week and this week, whether they are good or bad, but it seems I risk banishment if I do so, so I will refrain from doing it.

I don't agree that discussing the QBs overall performance is trolling or that it is akin to calling Jones the ant-Christ, but this is your site, and if you want to admonish me while ignoring folks who clearly cross the line, that is your prerogative.

Thanks for the warning, sir.


Overreact much? I feel like he's trying to give you constructive criticism. If he was going to ban you, you'd probably be gone by now.
...  
ryanmkeane : 10/26/2021 12:27 pm : link
well, let's see. How did he do when he had his left tackle and all of his weapons available in New Orleans?

Did you see the OL on Sunday and what he was able to accomplish with basically nothing at his disposal?

At this point, it is pretty clear that Jones can and will be a really good QB, just a matter of time.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Producer  
Producer : 10/26/2021 12:29 pm : link
In comment 15430005 Thunderstruck27 said:
Quote:
In comment 15429999 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15429986 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


In comment 15429983 Producer said:

Quote:


In comment 15429973 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


One-trick ponies usually quickly wear out their welcome on BBI.




Eric, are you ordering me not to post Jones' weekly ranks? If you say so, I will refrain from doing it. You are in charge.

In my defense I have rarely started any threads on Jones, I think just two since the season started, and I have started many NFT threads and survivor pool threads. Just because people here accuse me of obsessively starting Jones threads doesn't make it true.



The only thing I ever see you post is how much Daniel Jones sucks, even when he plays well.

You either have an unhealthy obsession with Jones being the anti-Christ or you're trolling.

My point to you is people are quickly tuning you out.



ok. thanks for the warning. I was planning to post Jones' weekly ranks, as I did last week and this week, whether they are good or bad, but it seems I risk banishment if I do so, so I will refrain from doing it.

I don't agree that discussing the QBs overall performance is trolling or that it is akin to calling Jones the ant-Christ, but this is your site, and if you want to admonish me while ignoring folks who clearly cross the line, that is your prerogative.

Thanks for the warning, sir.



Overreact much? I feel like he's trying to give you constructive criticism. If he was going to ban you, you'd probably be gone by now.


Yes I think you are right. Eric, is a mensch and I appreciate the warning. Nevertheless, why would I continue this practice unless it was expressly clear that I don't risk banishment.
RE: So Mr statistician  
Strahan91 : 10/26/2021 12:30 pm : link
In comment 15429974 Stu11 said:
Quote:
Wanna take a guess at Pat Mahomes stats the past 3 games plus last year's SB when he was running for his life on every play?
Just for shits and giggles I looked it up:
60% comp %
4/7 td-int
4 fumbles (2 lost)
66.47 passer rating
And that was with Kelce and T Hill possibly the 2 most dynamic guys at their position in the whole league and also helped greatly by the WFTgame and their bottom 4 defense in the league.
See what happens when you try and make plays with 1000 lbs of angry defensive lineman on top of you every play?

There was a meme going around a couple weeks back when Hill and Kelce both left the game that went something like: "Patrick Mahomes without Kelce and Hill" with a photo of Spencer Rattler. Tells you all you need to know
RE: ...  
Producer : 10/26/2021 12:30 pm : link
In comment 15430007 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
well, let's see. How did he do when he had his left tackle and all of his weapons available in New Orleans?

Did you see the OL on Sunday and what he was able to accomplish with basically nothing at his disposal?

At this point, it is pretty clear that Jones can and will be a really good QB, just a matter of time.


I don't think that is clear. But I hope you are right.
RE: ...  
GNewGiants : 10/26/2021 12:30 pm : link
In comment 15430007 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
well, let's see. How did he do when he had his left tackle and all of his weapons available in New Orleans?

Did you see the OL on Sunday and what he was able to accomplish with basically nothing at his disposal?

At this point, it is pretty clear that Jones can and will be a really good QB, just a matter of time.


My problem is how much longer do we wait? Because lets just say he gets next year as well and we have the same problems - how much are we willing to pay him?

I dont care if he is our QB next year or not. But we he has shown so far in his career isnt good enough. We cannot pay him 35-40 plus million dollars for what he has shown regardless of surrounding talent.
RE: RE: RE: RE: If you can't see it then you can't see it...  
Amtoft : 10/26/2021 12:31 pm : link
In comment 15429988 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15429980 Amtoft said:


Quote:


In comment 15429976 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15429970 Amtoft said:


Quote:


If you don't see a fiery hard working guy that is a leader then you can't see it. If you don't see a QB that worked to fix his biggest issue then you can't see it. If you don't see a guy fighting to win games then you can't see it. If you can't see a guy playing without his top 3 WRs, Starting RB, with a back up LT, Backup backup LG, backup Center, Backup RT that is out there laying it out for a one handed catch then you can't see it.

In all honestly if the Giants had Barkley, Golladay, Shepard, Toney, Thomas, Lemieux, and Gates... How much better do you think he would have done than 70% completion over 200 yards 1 TD and no turnovers while also rushing and catching a pass?

Again if you can't see it then hey you can't see it.



Hard work has nothing to do with it. A lot of guys who play QB work hard. It's about talent and ability. And Daniel Jones has shown through 2 and a half seasons that he cannot perform with the best at the position. maybe he will get better, but likely he will not.

Don't you want the NY Giants to have the best QB possible, and not just some jag that Gettleman had a goofy feeling about?



As I stated... YOU can't see it. I noticed you didn't answer my question. So the new question is ... do you just want to be right and blind? Because right now your are wrong and blind.



I think my intention is fairly obvious. I want the Giants to have a great QB. Right now I don't think that's Jones and the numbers back up that position. I would love it if Jones became Burrow, or Herbert, or Mahomes, or Brady.


Burrow is throwing to Chase, Tee Higgins, Their TE that keeps making plays, Tyler Boyd, with Joe Mixon at RB, and better OL not to mention better play caller.

Herbert is throwing to Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Cooks at TE, Ekeler the best receiving back in the game, with Ekeler running the ball at RB, and a better OL not to mention better play caller.

Mahomes is throwing to Tyreek Hill and freaking Travis Kelce! they also have injuries at RB and there OL isn't good although probably better than ours a huge upgrade at play calling and yet only one more win than us.

Brady is the best of all time throwing to Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, Antonio Brown, Gronk, with Lenard Fornette at RB, a much better healthy OL, and one of the best play callers.

Daniel Jones is throwing to Darius Slayton, Dante Pettis, John Ross, with Engram at TE, backup RB, horrible OL, and the worst play caller of the bunch by far.

Still Daniel Jones threw for over 200 yards on 70% completion to this rag tag group of WRs with a backup RB, another horrible play call inside the 3 yard line, while running well and making a crazy one handed catch without making a turnover.

Again you clearly can't see it!
RE: You are tiresome  
santacruzom : 10/26/2021 12:31 pm : link
In comment 15429886 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
and quite frankly lacking in any sort of real football acumen.

There are few if any QB's that would have significant stats with this team right now without 4 of its TOP playmakers and on its 6th or 7th OL combination.


I'm not so sure you can accuse someone of lacking real football acumen when you're basically criticizing them for not accounting for hypotheticals.
RE: RE: ...  
Producer : 10/26/2021 12:33 pm : link
In comment 15430017 GNewGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 15430007 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


well, let's see. How did he do when he had his left tackle and all of his weapons available in New Orleans?

Did you see the OL on Sunday and what he was able to accomplish with basically nothing at his disposal?

At this point, it is pretty clear that Jones can and will be a really good QB, just a matter of time.



My problem is how much longer do we wait? Because lets just say he gets next year as well and we have the same problems - how much are we willing to pay him?

I dont care if he is our QB next year or not. But we he has shown so far in his career isnt good enough. We cannot pay him 35-40 plus million dollars for what he has shown regardless of surrounding talent.


I don't think you *wait* for anybody unless they have unreal QB traits. It's year 3, we have accumulated poor performance and no elite traits. I don't *wait* for a QB like that to show me who he is. I start looking for an upgrade.
Producer  
ryanmkeane : 10/26/2021 12:34 pm : link
i get guys like you and Terps pointing to the stats. Stats tell a lot. What they don't tell is when your entire offense is injured and you're working with a patchwork OL. Someone just posted Mahomes stats for a good chunk....obviously he's an incredible quarterback. Nobody would dispute that.

But that's what happens when you don't have time to throw or the talent around you can't really do much.

There have been countless examples this season of someone being WIDE open for either a touchdown or a huge play, but Jones has about 1 second to throw so the play dies. Teams with above average OLs make those plays happen. And we would be making those plays if 3 out of 5 starters on our OL weren't hurt and we had I don't know....2 of our skill players back?
RE: RE: RE: ...  
Stu11 : 10/26/2021 12:35 pm : link
In comment 15430022 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15430017 GNewGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 15430007 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


well, let's see. How did he do when he had his left tackle and all of his weapons available in New Orleans?

Did you see the OL on Sunday and what he was able to accomplish with basically nothing at his disposal?

At this point, it is pretty clear that Jones can and will be a really good QB, just a matter of time.



My problem is how much longer do we wait? Because lets just say he gets next year as well and we have the same problems - how much are we willing to pay him?

I dont care if he is our QB next year or not. But we he has shown so far in his career isnt good enough. We cannot pay him 35-40 plus million dollars for what he has shown regardless of surrounding talent.



I don't think you *wait* for anybody unless they have unreal QB traits. It's year 3, we have accumulated poor performance and no elite traits. I don't *wait* for a QB like that to show me who he is. I start looking for an upgrade.

His running capability on RPO's is not elite? Please name me 3 or 4 QBs better at it. I would argue his ability to throw the deep ball is near elite as well.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: If you can't see it then you can't see it...  
Producer : 10/26/2021 12:35 pm : link
In comment 15430019 Amtoft said:
Quote:
In comment 15429988 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15429980 Amtoft said:


Quote:


In comment 15429976 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15429970 Amtoft said:


Quote:


If you don't see a fiery hard working guy that is a leader then you can't see it. If you don't see a QB that worked to fix his biggest issue then you can't see it. If you don't see a guy fighting to win games then you can't see it. If you can't see a guy playing without his top 3 WRs, Starting RB, with a back up LT, Backup backup LG, backup Center, Backup RT that is out there laying it out for a one handed catch then you can't see it.

In all honestly if the Giants had Barkley, Golladay, Shepard, Toney, Thomas, Lemieux, and Gates... How much better do you think he would have done than 70% completion over 200 yards 1 TD and no turnovers while also rushing and catching a pass?

Again if you can't see it then hey you can't see it.



Hard work has nothing to do with it. A lot of guys who play QB work hard. It's about talent and ability. And Daniel Jones has shown through 2 and a half seasons that he cannot perform with the best at the position. maybe he will get better, but likely he will not.

Don't you want the NY Giants to have the best QB possible, and not just some jag that Gettleman had a goofy feeling about?



As I stated... YOU can't see it. I noticed you didn't answer my question. So the new question is ... do you just want to be right and blind? Because right now your are wrong and blind.



I think my intention is fairly obvious. I want the Giants to have a great QB. Right now I don't think that's Jones and the numbers back up that position. I would love it if Jones became Burrow, or Herbert, or Mahomes, or Brady.



Burrow is throwing to Chase, Tee Higgins, Their TE that keeps making plays, Tyler Boyd, with Joe Mixon at RB, and better OL not to mention better play caller.

Herbert is throwing to Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Cooks at TE, Ekeler the best receiving back in the game, with Ekeler running the ball at RB, and a better OL not to mention better play caller.

Mahomes is throwing to Tyreek Hill and freaking Travis Kelce! they also have injuries at RB and there OL isn't good although probably better than ours a huge upgrade at play calling and yet only one more win than us.

Brady is the best of all time throwing to Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, Antonio Brown, Gronk, with Lenard Fornette at RB, a much better healthy OL, and one of the best play callers.

Daniel Jones is throwing to Darius Slayton, Dante Pettis, John Ross, with Engram at TE, backup RB, horrible OL, and the worst play caller of the bunch by far.

Still Daniel Jones threw for over 200 yards on 70% completion to this rag tag group of WRs with a backup RB, another horrible play call inside the 3 yard line, while running well and making a crazy one handed catch without making a turnover.

Again you clearly can't see it!


every QB deals with injuries and subpar performance at some point. Marquis brown dropped three TD passes *in one game*. Rodgers dealt with WRs who routinely dropped TD passes. Wilson dealt with a broken line. Of course one, two or three games of poor performance can be excused. With Jones we are talking about a career of substandard play.
RE: RE: Someone inform Jones to hire a security team.  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/26/2021 12:36 pm : link
In comment 15429949 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15429890 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


This guy is a fucking obsessed creep.



At what point in life did you come to the conclusion that banal discussion of a public figure or athlete was a threat directed at them personally? It would seem you are having trouble making distinctions between conversation and threats. When you direct hostile epithets my way you are engaging in the anti-social practice of threatening someone.

If these distinctions are hard for you, I would be happy to recommend a therapist or psychiatrist to help you sort things out.


Only when it's pretty much the only thing the poster in question talks about. I'm far from the only one who has noticed this, weirdo. You act like Jones fucked your mother or something.

BTW, what's your previous name on here?
RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
Producer : 10/26/2021 12:37 pm : link
In comment 15430027 Stu11 said:
Quote:
In comment 15430022 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15430017 GNewGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 15430007 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


well, let's see. How did he do when he had his left tackle and all of his weapons available in New Orleans?

Did you see the OL on Sunday and what he was able to accomplish with basically nothing at his disposal?

At this point, it is pretty clear that Jones can and will be a really good QB, just a matter of time.



My problem is how much longer do we wait? Because lets just say he gets next year as well and we have the same problems - how much are we willing to pay him?

I dont care if he is our QB next year or not. But we he has shown so far in his career isnt good enough. We cannot pay him 35-40 plus million dollars for what he has shown regardless of surrounding talent.



I don't think you *wait* for anybody unless they have unreal QB traits. It's year 3, we have accumulated poor performance and no elite traits. I don't *wait* for a QB like that to show me who he is. I start looking for an upgrade.


His running capability on RPO's is not elite? Please name me 3 or 4 QBs better at it. I would argue his ability to throw the deep ball is near elite as well.


The RPO, read option stuff he is very good at, but they don't base the offense around it like Lamar. What I'm saying is he doesn't have elite arm skills. He is not an elite deep ball passer.
RE: RE: RE: Someone inform Jones to hire a security team.  
Producer : 10/26/2021 12:38 pm : link
In comment 15430029 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 15429949 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15429890 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


This guy is a fucking obsessed creep.



At what point in life did you come to the conclusion that banal discussion of a public figure or athlete was a threat directed at them personally? It would seem you are having trouble making distinctions between conversation and threats. When you direct hostile epithets my way you are engaging in the anti-social practice of threatening someone.

If these distinctions are hard for you, I would be happy to recommend a therapist or psychiatrist to help you sort things out.



Only when it's pretty much the only thing the poster in question talks about. I'm far from the only one who has noticed this, weirdo. You act like Jones fucked your mother or something.

BTW, what's your previous name on here?


get a shrink. You need help.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Someone inform Jones to hire a security team.  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/26/2021 12:39 pm : link
In comment 15430035 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15430029 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


In comment 15429949 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15429890 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


This guy is a fucking obsessed creep.



At what point in life did you come to the conclusion that banal discussion of a public figure or athlete was a threat directed at them personally? It would seem you are having trouble making distinctions between conversation and threats. When you direct hostile epithets my way you are engaging in the anti-social practice of threatening someone.

If these distinctions are hard for you, I would be happy to recommend a therapist or psychiatrist to help you sort things out.



Only when it's pretty much the only thing the poster in question talks about. I'm far from the only one who has noticed this, weirdo. You act like Jones fucked your mother or something.

BTW, what's your previous name on here?



get a shrink. You need help.


That's rich coming from you. I look forward to your next 100 posts on here being all about Jones. Good to see you getting shit on in your own thread. Well deserved.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: You are tiresome  
Strahan91 : 10/26/2021 12:40 pm : link
In comment 15429987 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 15429955 Strahan91 said:


Quote:



Go look at Brady's stats in 2019 with little skill position talent and an average OL vs 2020 and 2021 with top skill position guys and OL and tell me it doesn't matter...



You're not helping yourself by bringing up Brady in a Daniel Jones discussion. I already made an apt comparison, or are you going to argue that the 1-15 Jaguars had a better supporting cast?

Straw man.

Minshew's stats are heavily influenced by garbage time when they were getting blown out. Hell, their average point differential was -11.6. In fact his completion percentage in the red zone was 40%. The team won 1 game after all so this isn't rocket science and yet their backs averaged a full ypa more than the giants backs have but hey... never let the facts get in the way of a good narrative.
I see the douchenozels are out in force again today  
Dave on the UWS : 10/26/2021 12:41 pm : link
(producer and debaser). All you guys know is analytics. Have you watched JG playcalling in the redzone. What's Jones' percent of opportunities to throw TD passes? I bet, a lot lower than most teams. His TO are down, his passing completion percent is up (despite not having a decent receiving core for 2 seconds, except for the Saints game where he lit it up.)
The question about Jones really is this: most of us would now concede he is a legit NFL QB. But, is he a backup?, marginal starter? top 15? or elite? I honestly can't even give an opinion because his supporting cast changes so much from week to week, it contributes to inconsistency, and what he can try to do.
But pulling stats out of your ass, that are posted in a vacuum, without context is more than tiresome. And you two do it every single day!
Unless Jones reverts back to second year form  
AnnapolisMike : 10/26/2021 12:41 pm : link
He will be the Giants starting QB for at least 2 more years. The positives outweigh the negatives in his third season. There are far greater deficiencies on the roster to justify fretting about whether Jones is the LT solution. He is certainly good enough to be the short term solution.
RE: Producer  
Producer : 10/26/2021 12:42 pm : link
In comment 15430025 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
i get guys like you and Terps pointing to the stats. Stats tell a lot. What they don't tell is when your entire offense is injured and you're working with a patchwork OL. Someone just posted Mahomes stats for a good chunk....obviously he's an incredible quarterback. Nobody would dispute that.

But that's what happens when you don't have time to throw or the talent around you can't really do much.

There have been countless examples this season of someone being WIDE open for either a touchdown or a huge play, but Jones has about 1 second to throw so the play dies. Teams with above average OLs make those plays happen. And we would be making those plays if 3 out of 5 starters on our OL weren't hurt and we had I don't know....2 of our skill players back?


Thanks for the thoughtful reply. No doubt Jones has been given a rough hand. But he can be in a bad situation and still not be good enough. Both things can be true. The overall numbers are not a lie. He's not productive. The pressure is in the top third of the league this year. He is getting less pressure. yet his numbers still lag. I think we need to stop making excuses and start expecting 2 to 3 TD passes with low INTs, most weeks, and occasionally 4 or 5. He has 5 TDs *all season*. If he can't accomplish that, he's not the guy for the job.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: If you can't see it then you can't see it...  
Amtoft : 10/26/2021 12:45 pm : link
In comment 15430028 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15430019 Amtoft said:


Quote:


In comment 15429988 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15429980 Amtoft said:


Quote:


In comment 15429976 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15429970 Amtoft said:


Quote:


If you don't see a fiery hard working guy that is a leader then you can't see it. If you don't see a QB that worked to fix his biggest issue then you can't see it. If you don't see a guy fighting to win games then you can't see it. If you can't see a guy playing without his top 3 WRs, Starting RB, with a back up LT, Backup backup LG, backup Center, Backup RT that is out there laying it out for a one handed catch then you can't see it.

In all honestly if the Giants had Barkley, Golladay, Shepard, Toney, Thomas, Lemieux, and Gates... How much better do you think he would have done than 70% completion over 200 yards 1 TD and no turnovers while also rushing and catching a pass?

Again if you can't see it then hey you can't see it.



Hard work has nothing to do with it. A lot of guys who play QB work hard. It's about talent and ability. And Daniel Jones has shown through 2 and a half seasons that he cannot perform with the best at the position. maybe he will get better, but likely he will not.

Don't you want the NY Giants to have the best QB possible, and not just some jag that Gettleman had a goofy feeling about?



As I stated... YOU can't see it. I noticed you didn't answer my question. So the new question is ... do you just want to be right and blind? Because right now your are wrong and blind.



I think my intention is fairly obvious. I want the Giants to have a great QB. Right now I don't think that's Jones and the numbers back up that position. I would love it if Jones became Burrow, or Herbert, or Mahomes, or Brady.



Burrow is throwing to Chase, Tee Higgins, Their TE that keeps making plays, Tyler Boyd, with Joe Mixon at RB, and better OL not to mention better play caller.

Herbert is throwing to Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Cooks at TE, Ekeler the best receiving back in the game, with Ekeler running the ball at RB, and a better OL not to mention better play caller.

Mahomes is throwing to Tyreek Hill and freaking Travis Kelce! they also have injuries at RB and there OL isn't good although probably better than ours a huge upgrade at play calling and yet only one more win than us.

Brady is the best of all time throwing to Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, Antonio Brown, Gronk, with Lenard Fornette at RB, a much better healthy OL, and one of the best play callers.

Daniel Jones is throwing to Darius Slayton, Dante Pettis, John Ross, with Engram at TE, backup RB, horrible OL, and the worst play caller of the bunch by far.

Still Daniel Jones threw for over 200 yards on 70% completion to this rag tag group of WRs with a backup RB, another horrible play call inside the 3 yard line, while running well and making a crazy one handed catch without making a turnover.

Again you clearly can't see it!



every QB deals with injuries and subpar performance at some point. Marquis brown dropped three TD passes *in one game*. Rodgers dealt with WRs who routinely dropped TD passes. Wilson dealt with a broken line. Of course one, two or three games of poor performance can be excused. With Jones we are talking about a career of substandard play.


Dealing with injuries? I listed who Daniel Jones played with. Showed that he still completed 70% of his passes for over 200 yards with a TD, no turnovers, good rushes, amazing catch in a blow out win.

The fact is you listed a QBs saying you wished he played like player X, Y, and Z. I listed their players. Now you want to add Aaron Rodgers another HoF QB who plays with if not the best at least top 3 WR in the game. Plus lets throw Lamar Jackson former MVP and you have the nerve to say "Marquis brown dropped three TD passes *in one game*. Rodgers dealt with WRs who routinely dropped TD passes."

So dropped passes... which QB and team has more dropped passes? Aaron Rodgers, Lamar Jackson, Justin Herbert, Tom Brady, Patrick Mahomes, Joe Burrow, or Daniel Jones?

Give you a hint the Giants are near the top of the list in dropped passes.

You can't SEE it... I am sorry... I really am. You can keep trying to add the best QBs in the game with way better weapons, better OL, better coaches, better defenses, etc and say why isn't he as good as these players... Ummm with exception of Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady two of best ever all your QBs would struggle on this team with what we have.
RE: RE: Producer  
AnnapolisMike : 10/26/2021 12:46 pm : link
In comment 15430043 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15430025 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


i get guys like you and Terps pointing to the stats. Stats tell a lot. What they don't tell is when your entire offense is injured and you're working with a patchwork OL. Someone just posted Mahomes stats for a good chunk....obviously he's an incredible quarterback. Nobody would dispute that.

But that's what happens when you don't have time to throw or the talent around you can't really do much.

There have been countless examples this season of someone being WIDE open for either a touchdown or a huge play, but Jones has about 1 second to throw so the play dies. Teams with above average OLs make those plays happen. And we would be making those plays if 3 out of 5 starters on our OL weren't hurt and we had I don't know....2 of our skill players back?



Thanks for the thoughtful reply. No doubt Jones has been given a rough hand. But he can be in a bad situation and still not be good enough. Both things can be true. The overall numbers are not a lie. He's not productive. The pressure is in the top third of the league this year. He is getting less pressure. yet his numbers still lag. I think we need to stop making excuses and start expecting 2 to 3 TD passes with low INTs, most weeks, and occasionally 4 or 5. He has 5 TDs *all season*. If he can't accomplish that, he's not the guy for the job.


4 or 5 TD's a game??? WTF!!! 30+ TD's over an entire season is considered very good.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
Amtoft : 10/26/2021 12:47 pm : link
In comment 15430033 Producer said:
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In comment 15430027 Stu11 said:


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In comment 15430022 Producer said:


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In comment 15430017 GNewGiants said:


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In comment 15430007 ryanmkeane said:


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well, let's see. How did he do when he had his left tackle and all of his weapons available in New Orleans?

Did you see the OL on Sunday and what he was able to accomplish with basically nothing at his disposal?

At this point, it is pretty clear that Jones can and will be a really good QB, just a matter of time.



My problem is how much longer do we wait? Because lets just say he gets next year as well and we have the same problems - how much are we willing to pay him?

I dont care if he is our QB next year or not. But we he has shown so far in his career isnt good enough. We cannot pay him 35-40 plus million dollars for what he has shown regardless of surrounding talent.



I don't think you *wait* for anybody unless they have unreal QB traits. It's year 3, we have accumulated poor performance and no elite traits. I don't *wait* for a QB like that to show me who he is. I start looking for an upgrade.


His running capability on RPO's is not elite? Please name me 3 or 4 QBs better at it. I would argue his ability to throw the deep ball is near elite as well.



The RPO, read option stuff he is very good at, but they don't base the offense around it like Lamar. What I'm saying is he doesn't have elite arm skills. He is not an elite deep ball passer.


wait so you are saying he is bad because that stats show he is bad, but isn't an elite deep ball passer even though the stats show he is one of the best? You are so confusing
RE: I see the douchenozels are out in force again today  
Producer : 10/26/2021 12:47 pm : link
In comment 15430041 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
(producer and debaser). All you guys know is analytics. Have you watched JG playcalling in the redzone. What's Jones' percent of opportunities to throw TD passes? I bet, a lot lower than most teams. His TO are down, his passing completion percent is up (despite not having a decent receiving core for 2 seconds, except for the Saints game where he lit it up.)
The question about Jones really is this: most of us would now concede he is a legit NFL QB. But, is he a backup?, marginal starter? top 15? or elite? I honestly can't even give an opinion because his supporting cast changes so much from week to week, it contributes to inconsistency, and what he can try to do.
But pulling stats out of your ass, that are posted in a vacuum, without context is more than tiresome. And you two do it every single day!


I don't see people here giving excuses for other QBs. I just hear guys like Tua suck, even though he had 4TDs this week. Nobody is digging into the reasons he had a rough start. Stats are meant to show how a player is doing compared to others, independent of excuses. Jones has been bottom third in the league for the entirety of his career. Perhaps, excuses explain that lack of production, but probably not. This is the NFL, every QB deals with hardship.

See how I gave a reply without calling you a name? Imagine that?
Producer  
ryanmkeane : 10/26/2021 12:48 pm : link
you and Terps keep saying "no excuses" and "stop making excuses"

What the fuck do you think Daniel Jones is supposed to do without the majority of his OL and basically his entire cast of skill players? What quarterback, currently on earth, is going to do well in that situation?

That is not an excuse. It's reality. It is playing out before our eyes. Anyone with half a brain realizes that any QB is going to struggle with the injury hand that the Giants have been dealt with.

Stop saying that it's an "excuse." An excuse would be something like "Jones is still young" or "well, Barkley dropped that pass that would have won the game" or "well, the playcalling sucked that game, we should have won."
RE: RE: RE: Producer  
Producer : 10/26/2021 12:48 pm : link
In comment 15430047 AnnapolisMike said:
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In comment 15430043 Producer said:


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In comment 15430025 ryanmkeane said:


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i get guys like you and Terps pointing to the stats. Stats tell a lot. What they don't tell is when your entire offense is injured and you're working with a patchwork OL. Someone just posted Mahomes stats for a good chunk....obviously he's an incredible quarterback. Nobody would dispute that.

But that's what happens when you don't have time to throw or the talent around you can't really do much.

There have been countless examples this season of someone being WIDE open for either a touchdown or a huge play, but Jones has about 1 second to throw so the play dies. Teams with above average OLs make those plays happen. And we would be making those plays if 3 out of 5 starters on our OL weren't hurt and we had I don't know....2 of our skill players back?



Thanks for the thoughtful reply. No doubt Jones has been given a rough hand. But he can be in a bad situation and still not be good enough. Both things can be true. The overall numbers are not a lie. He's not productive. The pressure is in the top third of the league this year. He is getting less pressure. yet his numbers still lag. I think we need to stop making excuses and start expecting 2 to 3 TD passes with low INTs, most weeks, and occasionally 4 or 5. He has 5 TDs *all season*. If he can't accomplish that, he's not the guy for the job.



4 or 5 TD's a game??? WTF!!! 30+ TD's over an entire season is considered very good.


No I said 2 to 3 a game with the occasional 4/5 game. But feel free to get worked up over something I didn't say.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: You are tiresome  
santacruzom : 10/26/2021 12:50 pm : link
In comment 15430039 Strahan91 said:
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In comment 15429987 Section331 said:


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In comment 15429955 Strahan91 said:


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Go look at Brady's stats in 2019 with little skill position talent and an average OL vs 2020 and 2021 with top skill position guys and OL and tell me it doesn't matter...



You're not helping yourself by bringing up Brady in a Daniel Jones discussion. I already made an apt comparison, or are you going to argue that the 1-15 Jaguars had a better supporting cast?


Straw man.

Minshew's stats are heavily influenced by garbage time when they were getting blown out. Hell, their average point differential was -11.6. In fact his completion percentage in the red zone was 40%. The team won 1 game after all so this isn't rocket science and yet their backs averaged a full ypa more than the giants backs have but hey... never let the facts get in the way of a good narrative.


But couldn't you argue that Jones's stats are bolstered by garbage time as well? Definitely seems like the Giabts have a penchant for moving the ball and scoring TDs late in a game that's out of reach.
RE: Producer  
Producer : 10/26/2021 12:50 pm : link
In comment 15430050 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
you and Terps keep saying "no excuses" and "stop making excuses"

What the fuck do you think Daniel Jones is supposed to do without the majority of his OL and basically his entire cast of skill players? What quarterback, currently on earth, is going to do well in that situation?

That is not an excuse. It's reality. It is playing out before our eyes. Anyone with half a brain realizes that any QB is going to struggle with the injury hand that the Giants have been dealt with.

Stop saying that it's an "excuse." An excuse would be something like "Jones is still young" or "well, Barkley dropped that pass that would have won the game" or "well, the playcalling sucked that game, we should have won."


Jones' pressure stats are dramatically improved. He is in the top third of the league, receiving least pressure. yet his passing metrics are about the same. Why?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: You are tiresome  
Section331 : 10/26/2021 12:52 pm : link
In comment 15430039 Strahan91 said:
Quote:

Straw man.

Minshew's stats are heavily influenced by garbage time when they were getting blown out. Hell, their average point differential was -11.6. In fact his completion percentage in the red zone was 40%. The team won 1 game after all so this isn't rocket science and yet their backs averaged a full ypa more than the giants backs have but hey... never let the facts get in the way of a good narrative.


Maybe you need to look up the term straw man. Minshew was 6-6 as a rookie, so it wasn't all garbage time. And 40% would be looking up from DJ's stellar 34%. But I guess this is where you cite playcalling again.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Producer  
Mike in NY : 10/26/2021 12:53 pm : link
In comment 15430051 Producer said:
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In comment 15430047 AnnapolisMike said:


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In comment 15430043 Producer said:


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In comment 15430025 ryanmkeane said:


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i get guys like you and Terps pointing to the stats. Stats tell a lot. What they don't tell is when your entire offense is injured and you're working with a patchwork OL. Someone just posted Mahomes stats for a good chunk....obviously he's an incredible quarterback. Nobody would dispute that.

But that's what happens when you don't have time to throw or the talent around you can't really do much.

There have been countless examples this season of someone being WIDE open for either a touchdown or a huge play, but Jones has about 1 second to throw so the play dies. Teams with above average OLs make those plays happen. And we would be making those plays if 3 out of 5 starters on our OL weren't hurt and we had I don't know....2 of our skill players back?



Thanks for the thoughtful reply. No doubt Jones has been given a rough hand. But he can be in a bad situation and still not be good enough. Both things can be true. The overall numbers are not a lie. He's not productive. The pressure is in the top third of the league this year. He is getting less pressure. yet his numbers still lag. I think we need to stop making excuses and start expecting 2 to 3 TD passes with low INTs, most weeks, and occasionally 4 or 5. He has 5 TDs *all season*. If he can't accomplish that, he's not the guy for the job.



4 or 5 TD's a game??? WTF!!! 30+ TD's over an entire season is considered very good.



No I said 2 to 3 a game with the occasional 4/5 game. But feel free to get worked up over something I didn't say.


3 TD's per game will make him compete for records of most passing TD's in a season. I don't want a Jameis Winston throwing 50 TD's and 30 INT's while losing games. If you want to look at QB's, I would say scoring percentage in red zone matters more than passing TD's. We are struggling in that area and not sure if it is Jones or Garrett or some combination of both for that.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
Producer : 10/26/2021 12:53 pm : link
In comment 15430048 Amtoft said:
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In comment 15430033 Producer said:


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In comment 15430027 Stu11 said:


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well, let's see. How did he do when he had his left tackle and all of his weapons available in New Orleans?

Did you see the OL on Sunday and what he was able to accomplish with basically nothing at his disposal?

At this point, it is pretty clear that Jones can and will be a really good QB, just a matter of time.



My problem is how much longer do we wait? Because lets just say he gets next year as well and we have the same problems - how much are we willing to pay him?

I dont care if he is our QB next year or not. But we he has shown so far in his career isnt good enough. We cannot pay him 35-40 plus million dollars for what he has shown regardless of surrounding talent.



I don't think you *wait* for anybody unless they have unreal QB traits. It's year 3, we have accumulated poor performance and no elite traits. I don't *wait* for a QB like that to show me who he is. I start looking for an upgrade.


His running capability on RPO's is not elite? Please name me 3 or 4 QBs better at it. I would argue his ability to throw the deep ball is near elite as well.



The RPO, read option stuff he is very good at, but they don't base the offense around it like Lamar. What I'm saying is he doesn't have elite arm skills. He is not an elite deep ball passer.



wait so you are saying he is bad because that stats show he is bad, but isn't an elite deep ball passer even though the stats show he is one of the best? You are so confusing


The stats do not confirm he is one of the best deep ball passers. This myth is based on a single stat from last season where he had a high comp % based on 39 throws, a tiny sample size. It doesn't take into account his arm strength, the difficulty of the throws, and sample size. My eyes tell me he is in the bottom half of the league on deep balls. he doesn't throw the deep ball as well as Mahomes, Herbert, Wilson, Allen, Rodgers, Murray, Burrow, and others.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Producer  
AnnapolisMike : 10/26/2021 12:56 pm : link
In comment 15430051 Producer said:
Quote:



No I said 2 to 3 a game with the occasional 4/5 game. But feel free to get worked up over something I didn't say.


That would still put a QB up over 40 a season if you do some math. Tom Brady is on pace for 50...and no one has claimed Jones is in the same stratosphere as Brady.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Producer  
Amtoft : 10/26/2021 12:57 pm : link
In comment 15430059 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 15430051 Producer said:


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In comment 15430047 AnnapolisMike said:


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In comment 15430043 Producer said:


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In comment 15430025 ryanmkeane said:


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i get guys like you and Terps pointing to the stats. Stats tell a lot. What they don't tell is when your entire offense is injured and you're working with a patchwork OL. Someone just posted Mahomes stats for a good chunk....obviously he's an incredible quarterback. Nobody would dispute that.

But that's what happens when you don't have time to throw or the talent around you can't really do much.

There have been countless examples this season of someone being WIDE open for either a touchdown or a huge play, but Jones has about 1 second to throw so the play dies. Teams with above average OLs make those plays happen. And we would be making those plays if 3 out of 5 starters on our OL weren't hurt and we had I don't know....2 of our skill players back?



Thanks for the thoughtful reply. No doubt Jones has been given a rough hand. But he can be in a bad situation and still not be good enough. Both things can be true. The overall numbers are not a lie. He's not productive. The pressure is in the top third of the league this year. He is getting less pressure. yet his numbers still lag. I think we need to stop making excuses and start expecting 2 to 3 TD passes with low INTs, most weeks, and occasionally 4 or 5. He has 5 TDs *all season*. If he can't accomplish that, he's not the guy for the job.



4 or 5 TD's a game??? WTF!!! 30+ TD's over an entire season is considered very good.



No I said 2 to 3 a game with the occasional 4/5 game. But feel free to get worked up over something I didn't say.



3 TD's per game will make him compete for records of most passing TD's in a season. I don't want a Jameis Winston throwing 50 TD's and 30 INT's while losing games. If you want to look at QB's, I would say scoring percentage in red zone matters more than passing TD's. We are struggling in that area and not sure if it is Jones or Garrett or some combination of both for that.


Well I think Jones has some accountability and it is something he needs to work on, but they can't run the ball very well and teams that can't run the ball well struggle inside the 10. Throw in some of the weirdest play calling inside the 3 I have ever seen. I mean a TE run, a one man route on a roll out, you can't make this up. I think Jones will do what he does and that is work on his negatives and get better. He has already shown he can in so many areas. He is accurate which is important in the redzone. He has the potential, but that is his biggest issue is fixing that. I wonder if having a healthy Golladay will help with being able to have a tall fade target.
I looked up his stats as well...  
D HOS : 10/26/2021 12:58 pm : link
I was just curious. I saw pretty much exactly what I expected.

Except for a few things I didn't see.

I didn't see the stat for 'heart', or 'toughness', or 'determination' or 'leadership'. I didn't even see the 'value to the team' stat.

To me, what matters is wins and losses. But if you want to micro-analyze the QB, those missing stats that I just listed are what I actually care about, not all those other ones.

Would I love for Jones to be among the "stat leaders" ? Sure! But if he's not then again I want wins, then I want those intangibles. Good stats are a result of a winning team, not the cause of a winning team.
producer  
Archer : 10/26/2021 1:01 pm : link
The reason that I mentioned advanced metrics in evaluating QB performance is because they are far more favorable to Jones

The stats include likely to be successful plays. This takes into account; separation of receivers, pressure, windows, length of throw, etc.

When considering these advanced stats Jones constantly comes in as top 10 and if you discounted his play vs. the Rams he would be top 5

These stats put the QB performance in context rather than in a vacuum
OL, WR, RB, play impacts are considered


RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
Debaser : 10/26/2021 1:04 pm : link
In comment 15430061 Producer said:
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In comment 15430048 Amtoft said:


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In comment 15430033 Producer said:


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In comment 15430027 Stu11 said:


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In comment 15430022 Producer said:


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In comment 15430017 GNewGiants said:


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In comment 15430007 ryanmkeane said:


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well, let's see. How did he do when he had his left tackle and all of his weapons available in New Orleans?

Did you see the OL on Sunday and what he was able to accomplish with basically nothing at his disposal?

At this point, it is pretty clear that Jones can and will be a really good QB, just a matter of time.



My problem is how much longer do we wait? Because lets just say he gets next year as well and we have the same problems - how much are we willing to pay him?

I dont care if he is our QB next year or not. But we he has shown so far in his career isnt good enough. We cannot pay him 35-40 plus million dollars for what he has shown regardless of surrounding talent.



I don't think you *wait* for anybody unless they have unreal QB traits. It's year 3, we have accumulated poor performance and no elite traits. I don't *wait* for a QB like that to show me who he is. I start looking for an upgrade.


His running capability on RPO's is not elite? Please name me 3 or 4 QBs better at it. I would argue his ability to throw the deep ball is near elite as well.



The RPO, read option stuff he is very good at, but they don't base the offense around it like Lamar. What I'm saying is he doesn't have elite arm skills. He is not an elite deep ball passer.



wait so you are saying he is bad because that stats show he is bad, but isn't an elite deep ball passer even though the stats show he is one of the best? You are so confusing



The stats do not confirm he is one of the best deep ball passers. This myth is based on a single stat from last season where he had a high comp % based on 39 throws, a tiny sample size. It doesn't take into account his arm strength, the difficulty of the throws, and sample size. My eyes tell me he is in the bottom half of the league on deep balls. he doesn't throw the deep ball as well as Mahomes, Herbert, Wilson, Allen, Rodgers, Murray, Burrow, and others.


Seriously everything this year is that throw 10 feet over someone's head; that lollipop he throws which he actually connected one to Toney that made a diving catch where the DB didn't know where the ball is. It is not like other QBs in the league who recognize one on one ;a safety that isn't going to be there if you throw a laser; and just throw a laser. Even like Eli did with Slayton in his last MNF game or like the Manningham play.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
Amtoft : 10/26/2021 1:05 pm : link
In comment 15430061 Producer said:
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In comment 15430048 Amtoft said:


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In comment 15430033 Producer said:


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In comment 15430027 Stu11 said:


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In comment 15430022 Producer said:


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In comment 15430007 ryanmkeane said:


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well, let's see. How did he do when he had his left tackle and all of his weapons available in New Orleans?

Did you see the OL on Sunday and what he was able to accomplish with basically nothing at his disposal?

At this point, it is pretty clear that Jones can and will be a really good QB, just a matter of time.



My problem is how much longer do we wait? Because lets just say he gets next year as well and we have the same problems - how much are we willing to pay him?

I dont care if he is our QB next year or not. But we he has shown so far in his career isnt good enough. We cannot pay him 35-40 plus million dollars for what he has shown regardless of surrounding talent.



I don't think you *wait* for anybody unless they have unreal QB traits. It's year 3, we have accumulated poor performance and no elite traits. I don't *wait* for a QB like that to show me who he is. I start looking for an upgrade.


His running capability on RPO's is not elite? Please name me 3 or 4 QBs better at it. I would argue his ability to throw the deep ball is near elite as well.



The RPO, read option stuff he is very good at, but they don't base the offense around it like Lamar. What I'm saying is he doesn't have elite arm skills. He is not an elite deep ball passer.



wait so you are saying he is bad because that stats show he is bad, but isn't an elite deep ball passer even though the stats show he is one of the best? You are so confusing



The stats do not confirm he is one of the best deep ball passers. This myth is based on a single stat from last season where he had a high comp % based on 39 throws, a tiny sample size. It doesn't take into account his arm strength, the difficulty of the throws, and sample size. My eyes tell me he is in the bottom half of the league on deep balls. he doesn't throw the deep ball as well as Mahomes, Herbert, Wilson, Allen, Rodgers, Murray, Burrow, and others.


Wait did you are just say that. Yes the stats say he was the absolute best last year, BUT forget the stats because your eyes say different? I get it now... you are a troll. I reserve this just for trolls... You are an idiot.
We  
AcidTest : 10/26/2021 1:13 pm : link
need to wait until the end of the season to evaluate Jones, especially considering that so many of his weapons are out, and his OL is tenuous at best. Contrast that with Solder who we already know shouldn't be playing.
man this feels like  
BigBlueJ : 10/26/2021 1:15 pm : link
so much deja vu... I swear we had a thread just like this last year.
RE: producer  
Producer : 10/26/2021 1:16 pm : link
In comment 15430072 Archer said:
Quote:
The reason that I mentioned advanced metrics in evaluating QB performance is because they are far more favorable to Jones

The stats include likely to be successful plays. This takes into account; separation of receivers, pressure, windows, length of throw, etc.

When considering these advanced stats Jones constantly comes in as top 10 and if you discounted his play vs. the Rams he would be top 5

These stats put the QB performance in context rather than in a vacuum
OL, WR, RB, play impacts are considered



If you are talking the PFF stats, I don't know what to say. The top tens in those lists are usually a bizarre assortment of QBs, and seems to make them sort of unreliable. but at some point you expect context to even out, no? Or are we going to continue with this narrative that Jones can never get it together via normal metrics because the deck is stacked against him. But send me links to the metrics you have in mind. I'd be happy to consider them. Mind you, in PFFs overall ranking Jones is somewhere 15-20. That's not top ten.
RE: We  
Debaser : 10/26/2021 1:19 pm : link
In comment 15430087 AcidTest said:
Quote:
need to wait until the end of the season to evaluate Jones, especially considering that so many of his weapons are out, and his OL is tenuous at best. Contrast that with Solder who we already know shouldn't be playing.


I don't need to. It is year 3 all his "weapons " were there earlier in the year, and he proved they were a waste of money because he didn't know how to use Golladay. he played 3 piss poor teams ; went 0-3; threw hardly any TDs yet again and Garrett still either doesn't trust him to play loose or is a complete idiot according to some.

But why then did the Cowboys QBs have like 20+ TDs a year when he coached there? Why did he do his don Shula impersonation with the deep outs the first pass play Glennon got put into the game when Jones got hurt? Year 3 is too long to be askng question s like these and getting temporary sugar highs on one off good games and trick plays
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
Producer : 10/26/2021 1:20 pm : link
In comment 15430078 Amtoft said:
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In comment 15430061 Producer said:


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In comment 15430048 Amtoft said:


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In comment 15430033 Producer said:


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In comment 15430027 Stu11 said:


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In comment 15430022 Producer said:


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In comment 15430017 GNewGiants said:


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In comment 15430007 ryanmkeane said:


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well, let's see. How did he do when he had his left tackle and all of his weapons available in New Orleans?

Did you see the OL on Sunday and what he was able to accomplish with basically nothing at his disposal?

At this point, it is pretty clear that Jones can and will be a really good QB, just a matter of time.



My problem is how much longer do we wait? Because lets just say he gets next year as well and we have the same problems - how much are we willing to pay him?

I dont care if he is our QB next year or not. But we he has shown so far in his career isnt good enough. We cannot pay him 35-40 plus million dollars for what he has shown regardless of surrounding talent.



I don't think you *wait* for anybody unless they have unreal QB traits. It's year 3, we have accumulated poor performance and no elite traits. I don't *wait* for a QB like that to show me who he is. I start looking for an upgrade.


His running capability on RPO's is not elite? Please name me 3 or 4 QBs better at it. I would argue his ability to throw the deep ball is near elite as well.



The RPO, read option stuff he is very good at, but they don't base the offense around it like Lamar. What I'm saying is he doesn't have elite arm skills. He is not an elite deep ball passer.



wait so you are saying he is bad because that stats show he is bad, but isn't an elite deep ball passer even though the stats show he is one of the best? You are so confusing



The stats do not confirm he is one of the best deep ball passers. This myth is based on a single stat from last season where he had a high comp % based on 39 throws, a tiny sample size. It doesn't take into account his arm strength, the difficulty of the throws, and sample size. My eyes tell me he is in the bottom half of the league on deep balls. he doesn't throw the deep ball as well as Mahomes, Herbert, Wilson, Allen, Rodgers, Murray, Burrow, and others.



Wait did you are just say that. Yes the stats say he was the absolute best last year, BUT forget the stats because your eyes say different? I get it now... you are a troll. I reserve this just for trolls... You are an idiot.


I explained the problems with that stat, small sample size, but you chose to ignore it, and then insult me. Who's the troll here?

And if you accept that deep ball number, based on small sample size, you have to accept the short and intermediate accuracy number *from the same data set* derived from a *much larger sample size* and therefore *more reliable* that says Jones was the worst QB in the league in short and intermediate accuracy, which is unsustainable for a starting QB in the NFL. Are you willing to accept that number as well, or do you have a reason why we should accept the number you like and not the number you don't like.

And no serious QB analyst thinks Daniel Jones is a better deep ball passer than Herbert, Mahomes, Rodgers, Wilson, etc.. None.
In another thread  
Thegratefulhead : 10/26/2021 1:28 pm : link
I commented that maybe he can't reduce turnovers and score TD's.

It could be as simple as if he keeps his eyes downfield he isn't aware of the rush and turns the ball over in the pocket. When he makes an effort to reduce turnovers he loses the big plays.
RE: In another thread  
Producer : 10/26/2021 1:30 pm : link
In comment 15430119 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
I commented that maybe he can't reduce turnovers and score TD's.

It could be as simple as if he keeps his eyes downfield he isn't aware of the rush and turns the ball over in the pocket. When he makes an effort to reduce turnovers he loses the big plays.


I have made that point elsewhere as well. Daniel Jones had the offense reduced to limit turnovers, but it came at the cost of production. It is an unsustainable lack of production. Can he be productive and limit turnovers at the same time? That's the question.
How dare you  
Jerry in_DC : 10/26/2021 1:34 pm : link
post the below average stats of a below average Giants player on a Giants message board. Appalling behavior.
RE: How dare you  
Producer : 10/26/2021 1:40 pm : link
In comment 15430129 Jerry in_DC said:
Quote:
post the below average stats of a below average Giants player on a Giants message board. Appalling behavior.


seriously. I'm a moron, idiot, douchnozzle troll who got reprimanded by the owner of the board for dispassionately posting the Giants' QB stats on a Giants message board.
the old sports pope line on being a baseball hall of famer  
NotIraInSI : 10/26/2021 1:41 pm : link
if you have to ask then you should not get in.same could be said about franchise quarterbacks.
producer  
Archer : 10/26/2021 1:48 pm : link
The PFF stats are more reliable than the ordinary stats
They take into consideration context and that is important

However, regardless of what the stats say, what does the eye test say

Great athlete (yes)
Can make all the throws (yes)
Top long ball passer (yes)
Great runner (yes)
Tough and courageous (yes)
Smart (yes)
Hard worker (yes)
Does he show improvement in areas of weakness (yes)
A leader (yes)
Is he getting better (yes)

RE: Yes  
compton : 10/26/2021 1:50 pm : link
In comment 15429924 mittenedman said:
Quote:
All with the worst OLine and skill players in the NFL.

What's your point?


Based on this lone stat "sack% 16th (lw: 13)" would suggest that he is playing behind an average line that is far from the worst. I would like to see a stat on pressures to form a definitive opinion about the line play.

RE: producer  
Route 9 : 10/26/2021 1:53 pm : link
In comment 15430150 Archer said:
Quote:
The PFF stats are more reliable than the ordinary stats
They take into consideration context and that is important

However, regardless of what the stats say, what does the eye test say

Great athlete (yes)
Can make all the throws (yes)
Top long ball passer (yes)
Great runner (yes)
Tough and courageous (yes)
Smart (yes)
Hard worker (yes)
Does he show improvement in areas of weakness (yes)
A leader (yes)
Is he getting better (yes)


Gets touchdowns when in redzone
RE: producer  
Producer : 10/26/2021 1:53 pm : link
In comment 15430150 Archer said:
Quote:
The PFF stats are more reliable than the ordinary stats
They take into consideration context and that is important

However, regardless of what the stats say, what does the eye test say

Great athlete (yes)
Can make all the throws (yes)
Top long ball passer (yes)
Great runner (yes)
Tough and courageous (yes)
Smart (yes)
Hard worker (yes)
Does he show improvement in areas of weakness (yes)
A leader (yes)
Is he getting better (yes)


I like PFF in general, but their QB stats are open to a lot of question. Their top-10 lists seem random and littered with lesser talents.

Jones cannot make all the throws. He is not a great deep ball passer (as I have said that stat is based on a tiny sample size), and he does not have a great arm. He may be smart but he seems to lack crucial football smarts and instincts. He lacks poise in the pocket. he makes too many mistakes. He is slow to read the field. he suffers from short to intermediate accuracy issues, he locks onto his first read and bird dogs receivers, etc
RE: RE: Yes  
Producer : 10/26/2021 1:56 pm : link
In comment 15430158 compton said:
Quote:
In comment 15429924 mittenedman said:


Quote:


All with the worst OLine and skill players in the NFL.

What's your point?



Based on this lone stat "sack% 16th (lw: 13)" would suggest that he is playing behind an average line that is far from the worst. I would like to see a stat on pressures to form a definitive opinion about the line play.



I think this might be what you are looking for. Hit the "PRESSURE" tab.
pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/passing_advanced.htm
producer  
Archer : 10/26/2021 1:58 pm : link
If the play book was simplified it was due to a porous OL, no WRs, no running game, and an inept offensive coordinator

It had nothing to do with Jones

Bye the way do you realize that after Gates went down Jones had to make the line calls

This also forced the Giants to modify their play calling

It is sad the the offense was not built to maximize Jones strengths
It is only recently that the play book includes RPO, role outs, and short passes in lieu of runs

What would Lamar look like in a traditional offense ? The scheme makes all the difference
RE: producer  
Producer : 10/26/2021 2:00 pm : link
In comment 15430180 Archer said:
Quote:
If the play book was simplified it was due to a porous OL, no WRs, no running game, and an inept offensive coordinator

It had nothing to do with Jones

Bye the way do you realize that after Gates went down Jones had to make the line calls

This also forced the Giants to modify their play calling

It is sad the the offense was not built to maximize Jones strengths
It is only recently that the play book includes RPO, role outs, and short passes in lieu of runs

What would Lamar look like in a traditional offense ? The scheme makes all the difference


Maybe. Perhaps they should run a variation of the ravens offense. But Jones is not as talented at RPOs and read options as Lamar. Not close. Would it work as a strategy? I'd be open to finding out.
RE: RE: How dare you  
Amtoft : 10/26/2021 2:00 pm : link
In comment 15430138 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15430129 Jerry in_DC said:


Quote:


post the below average stats of a below average Giants player on a Giants message board. Appalling behavior.



seriously. I'm a moron, idiot, douchnozzle troll who got reprimanded by the owner of the board for dispassionately posting the Giants' QB stats on a Giants message board.


You are a troll because you basically say the stats don't lie your eyes do and then say the stats lie because it is a small sample size and my eyes see different. You do this while compare him to QBs (some the best to ever play) that are on teams loaded with insane talent against the crap we have had to send out each week and your eyes can't seem to see that. I mean douchnozzle was uncalled for as I don't think you have been rude, but well either a troll , obtuse, or sorry to say an idiot all seem to fit nicely.
producer  
Archer : 10/26/2021 2:09 pm : link
As I have mentioned when a QB only makes only (7) throws when inside the 10 yard line it is hard to throw TDs (does not include week 7 those stats are not available until tomorrow)

I could understand if Jones made inaccurate throws or threw interceptions which caused the drive to fail, but that is not the case, the drives fail because the Giants cannot run the ball, yet they persist in running.



Conversely Jones is 100% in two point conversions. This is due to the fact that the Giants always run 0 protection and spread out the offense. Why don't they do this in regular redzone attempts?
RE: RE: producer  
compton : 10/26/2021 2:11 pm : link
In comment 15430163 Route 9 said:
Quote:
In comment 15430150 Archer said:


Quote:


The PFF stats are more reliable than the ordinary stats
They take into consideration context and that is important

However, regardless of what the stats say, what does the eye test say

Great athlete (yes)
Can make all the throws (yes)
Top long ball passer (yes)
Great runner (yes)
Tough and courageous (yes)
Smart (yes)
Hard worker (yes)
Does he show improvement in areas of weakness (yes)
A leader (yes)
Is he getting better (yes)




Gets touchdowns when in redzone


Jones can't make throws on the move. If he is flushed out of the pocket he can't make throws. So NO, Jones can't make all the throws.
RE: RE: RE: How dare you  
Producer : 10/26/2021 2:12 pm : link
In comment 15430185 Amtoft said:
Quote:
In comment 15430138 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15430129 Jerry in_DC said:


Quote:


post the below average stats of a below average Giants player on a Giants message board. Appalling behavior.



seriously. I'm a moron, idiot, douchnozzle troll who got reprimanded by the owner of the board for dispassionately posting the Giants' QB stats on a Giants message board.



You are a troll because you basically say the stats don't lie your eyes do and then say the stats lie because it is a small sample size and my eyes see different. You do this while compare him to QBs (some the best to ever play) that are on teams loaded with insane talent against the crap we have had to send out each week and your eyes can't seem to see that. I mean douchnozzle was uncalled for as I don't think you have been rude, but well either a troll , obtuse, or sorry to say an idiot all seem to fit nicely.


If you have to go only to exotic stats to make your case, then I think you don't have a case. All the great QBs put up great stats, even in less than perfect conditions. We're in year 3. Let's face it, if Jones has trouble, the context excuse will always come to his defense. You will never be ready to let go. It's easier to call me a troll than to face hard truths about your assumptions.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/26/2021 2:14 pm : link
If it is a thread about DJ, expect @ least 500 videos & north of 50 posts.
RE: producer  
Producer : 10/26/2021 2:14 pm : link
In comment 15430205 Archer said:
Quote:
As I have mentioned when a QB only makes only (7) throws when inside the 10 yard line it is hard to throw TDs (does not include week 7 those stats are not available until tomorrow)

I could understand if Jones made inaccurate throws or threw interceptions which caused the drive to fail, but that is not the case, the drives fail because the Giants cannot run the ball, yet they persist in running.



Conversely Jones is 100% in two point conversions. This is due to the fact that the Giants always run 0 protection and spread out the offense. Why don't they do this in regular redzone attempts?


But Jones *is* inaccurate. And there is no accounting for poor choices he is making on the field, throws he doesn't attempt, because he doesn't *see* it just can't make that throw that Stafford or Herbert can make. He's not a playmaker with his arm. the stats, or lack of them, clearly show that. he is a see it, throw it QB, who locks onto targets, and checks down all too frequently.
Producer  
Archer : 10/26/2021 2:16 pm : link
You are stating that Jones is not a good passer and that he does not have a strong arm
What are you basing this on
There are no statistics to support this claim
Quite the contrary Jones is 1-2 in deep passes, 1-2 on contested passes into tight windows, he throws a great pass that is very accurate and tight.

A criticism could be made that he throws the ball too hard and does not put enough air under his throws.


His arm is significantly better than Eli's and that is not a knock on Eli
RE: Producer  
Producer : 10/26/2021 2:19 pm : link
In comment 15430226 Archer said:
Quote:
You are stating that Jones is not a good passer and that he does not have a strong arm
What are you basing this on
There are no statistics to support this claim
Quite the contrary Jones is 1-2 in deep passes, 1-2 on contested passes into tight windows, he throws a great pass that is very accurate and tight.

A criticism could be made that he throws the ball too hard and does not put enough air under his throws.


His arm is significantly better than Eli's and that is not a knock on Eli


Look, as I said above to someone else, if you are going to insist that Jones is a great deep ball passer based on the one PFF stat regarding his deep ball accuracy then you have to accept the short and intermediate accuracy number *from the same data set* derived from a *much larger sample size* and therefore *more reliable* that says Jones was the worst QB in the league in short and intermediate accuracy, which is simply and plainly fatal to his prospects as a starting QB in the NFL. Are you willing to accept that number as well, or do you have a reason why we should accept the number you like and not the number you don't like.

Jones has a weak arm for an NFL QB  
Producer : 10/26/2021 2:20 pm : link
I don't believe you look at Herbert, Stafford, Rodgers, Mahomes, Allen, etc and can't see they have significantly better arm talent than Jones.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Producer  
santacruzom : 10/26/2021 2:22 pm : link
In comment 15430059 Mike in NY said:
Quote:


3 TD's per game will make him compete for records of most passing TD's in a season. I don't want a Jameis Winston throwing 50 TD's and 30 INT's while losing games. If you want to look at QB's, I would say scoring percentage in red zone matters more than passing TD's. We are struggling in that area and not sure if it is Jones or Garrett or some combination of both for that.


Speaking of Jameis Winston, I have to imagine that Bucs fans were engaging in the same sort of debates about him during his first few seasons as we've had about Jones. If so, what side of that debate seems to be winning the argument so far?
Producer  
Archer : 10/26/2021 2:23 pm : link
You are making my point for me

Herbert and Stafford have great supporting casts
They have the time and the players that allow them to make plays

If they were harassed as Jones is they could not consistently make these plays

Based upon your evaluations Stafford would have been a failure while at Detroit.
He is only now able to reach his potential
Bro, you and your anti Jones agenda  
montanagiant : 10/26/2021 2:28 pm : link
Has become laughable.

You base your whole argument on stats and then when Amtoft uses stats in his counterargument they all of sudden aren't legit.

Here are some stats for you:
Eight(8) out of your fifteen(15) most recent threads on your profile deal with you running around trying to slam Jones. Out of the remaining seven(7) threads, two(2) are game threads where we know you slammed him also, three(3) are NFTs, and one(1) is regarding Survivor Pools.

DO you not realize how obsessive that is?
RE: RE: RE: Yes  
Amtoft : 10/26/2021 2:31 pm : link
In comment 15430176 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15430158 compton said:


Quote:


In comment 15429924 mittenedman said:


Quote:


All with the worst OLine and skill players in the NFL.

What's your point?



Based on this lone stat "sack% 16th (lw: 13)" would suggest that he is playing behind an average line that is far from the worst. I would like to see a stat on pressures to form a definitive opinion about the line play.





I think this might be what you are looking for. Hit the "PRESSURE" tab.
pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/passing_advanced.htm


Again you don't seem to maybe watch the games. You seem to be living in advanced passing stats like that is the tell all. He is the second most blitz QB, but he is only pressured 20.2% which can say see look at the stats his pressure % is less than other QBs. However when you watch the games you also way more plays designed for roll outs to avoid the pressure of our crappy line. How many design roll outs do you see Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Joe Burrow do a game compared to Daniel Jones? In fact you hardly ever see them do that because it is harder to play QB that way rather than sit in a pocket, setting your feet, and find the open man.

Same link you can look at things like Bad throws, Bad throws percentage, On target throws, and on target throw percentage. Two of the highest in bad throws, btpercentage, on target throws, on target percentages are Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers. If I wanted to I could come on here and say look at these stats. Brady and Rodgers aren't any good because they make more bad throws and are less accurate according to these stats. I mean you can find any stats to help or hurt your argument.

What makes you are troll is you use stats to try and help yourself and then your eyes if the stats don't back up the stats. You say things like Aaron Rodgers and Lamar Jackson have dropped passes all while Aaron Rodgers has a 1.4% dropped pass statistic the absolute best by far of all QBs and Lamar Jackson has 4.6% right around middle maybe slightly worse while Daniel Jones is at 6.9% dropped passes second only to Sam Darnold.

You see if your eyes can't see Aaron Rodgers dumping off a 7 yard pass to Davante Adams who then beats everyone for a 20+ yard score giving Aaron Rodgers a TD on his stats, but you can't see say Rudolph stepping out by an inch taking away a TD from Daniel Jones then I can't help you. You see Brown drop 3 TDs from Lamar Jackson, but you can't see Darius Slayton dropping a 50+ yard TD. You can't see things. Which goes back to my original post... you can't see it.

"he blind stares of a million pairs of eyes Looking hard, but won't realize That they will never see"
RE: Producer  
Producer : 10/26/2021 2:31 pm : link
In comment 15430244 Archer said:
Quote:
You are making my point for me

Herbert and Stafford have great supporting casts
They have the time and the players that allow them to make plays

If they were harassed as Jones is they could not consistently make these plays

Based upon your evaluations Stafford would have been a failure while at Detroit.
He is only now able to reach his potential


I suggest you listen to Greg Cosell who has raved about Stafford's isolated arm talent for a decade, from the point he entered the league. When Jones entered the league he said of DJ, he has limited throwing ability and must be managed with defined reads to win in this league. See the difference? I'm not saying Stafford has great arm talent because he has great stats or a great supporting cast. I'm saying Stafford has great arm talent because he can literally throw the ball further than DJ and make more difficult throws. he makes difficult throws that Jones can't even attempt. This is obvious , by the way to most observers. Stafford has a better arm than Jones every which way. If you cannot admit it, I don't know where we go from here. I suggest you look up youtube videos of Stafford throws. He's a different animal. Herbert too. That famous throw Herbert made against Dallas. Jones won't even try that. Jones is a tier or two below those guys in arm talent, right? If w3e can't agree on something so obvious what's the point of continuing.
RE: Bro, you and your anti Jones agenda  
Producer : 10/26/2021 2:34 pm : link
In comment 15430258 montanagiant said:
Quote:
Has become laughable.

You base your whole argument on stats and then when Amtoft uses stats in his counterargument they all of sudden aren't legit.

Here are some stats for you:
Eight(8) out of your fifteen(15) most recent threads on your profile deal with you running around trying to slam Jones. Out of the remaining seven(7) threads, two(2) are game threads where we know you slammed him also, three(3) are NFTs, and one(1) is regarding Survivor Pools.

DO you not realize how obsessive that is?


Try to stick to the topic. I started exactly three threads about Jones since the start of the season.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Yes  
Producer : 10/26/2021 2:37 pm : link
In comment 15430265 Amtoft said:
Quote:
In comment 15430176 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15430158 compton said:


Quote:


In comment 15429924 mittenedman said:


Quote:


All with the worst OLine and skill players in the NFL.

What's your point?



Based on this lone stat "sack% 16th (lw: 13)" would suggest that he is playing behind an average line that is far from the worst. I would like to see a stat on pressures to form a definitive opinion about the line play.





I think this might be what you are looking for. Hit the "PRESSURE" tab.
pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/passing_advanced.htm



Again you don't seem to maybe watch the games. You seem to be living in advanced passing stats like that is the tell all. He is the second most blitz QB, but he is only pressured 20.2% which can say see look at the stats his pressure % is less than other QBs. However when you watch the games you also way more plays designed for roll outs to avoid the pressure of our crappy line. How many design roll outs do you see Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Joe Burrow do a game compared to Daniel Jones? In fact you hardly ever see them do that because it is harder to play QB that way rather than sit in a pocket, setting your feet, and find the open man.

Same link you can look at things like Bad throws, Bad throws percentage, On target throws, and on target throw percentage. Two of the highest in bad throws, btpercentage, on target throws, on target percentages are Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers. If I wanted to I could come on here and say look at these stats. Brady and Rodgers aren't any good because they make more bad throws and are less accurate according to these stats. I mean you can find any stats to help or hurt your argument.

What makes you are troll is you use stats to try and help yourself and then your eyes if the stats don't back up the stats. You say things like Aaron Rodgers and Lamar Jackson have dropped passes all while Aaron Rodgers has a 1.4% dropped pass statistic the absolute best by far of all QBs and Lamar Jackson has 4.6% right around middle maybe slightly worse while Daniel Jones is at 6.9% dropped passes second only to Sam Darnold.

You see if your eyes can't see Aaron Rodgers dumping off a 7 yard pass to Davante Adams who then beats everyone for a 20+ yard score giving Aaron Rodgers a TD on his stats, but you can't see say Rudolph stepping out by an inch taking away a TD from Daniel Jones then I can't help you. You see Brown drop 3 TDs from Lamar Jackson, but you can't see Darius Slayton dropping a 50+ yard TD. You can't see things. Which goes back to my original post... you can't see it.

"he blind stares of a million pairs of eyes Looking hard, but won't realize That they will never see"


Rodgers struggled with dropped passes plenty over the last several years. After Adams he had MVS, Lazard, etc who wouldn't even crack the Giants last season. All bums.

Rolling out doesn't make passing harder, it makes it easier which is why it is a staple for rookies and young players. It divides the field in half for the QB and helps define the read.

Anyway, won't continue engaging with someone who calls me a troll. This isn't equal footing. If you can't couch your arguments in a collegial manner why should I bother engaging.
RE: RE: Bro, you and your anti Jones agenda  
Producer : 10/26/2021 2:38 pm : link
In comment 15430269 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15430258 montanagiant said:


Quote:


Has become laughable.

You base your whole argument on stats and then when Amtoft uses stats in his counterargument they all of sudden aren't legit.

Here are some stats for you:
Eight(8) out of your fifteen(15) most recent threads on your profile deal with you running around trying to slam Jones. Out of the remaining seven(7) threads, two(2) are game threads where we know you slammed him also, three(3) are NFTs, and one(1) is regarding Survivor Pools.

DO you not realize how obsessive that is?



Try to stick to the topic. I started exactly three threads about Jones since the start of the season.


Furthermore, questioning the sample size and integrity of a stat is certainly a fair rebuttal. You are smart enough to know this.
producer  
Archer : 10/26/2021 2:43 pm : link
Again what are you basing your assessment that Jones does not have a strong arm

Is there any empirical data or is this just your observations

If it is your observations than I can't accept this as a fact
To my eye Jones can and has made every throw
He throws a great deep ball with accuracy and velocity
He can throw on the run and across his body

He does not make off platform throws but that is more related to how he was trained

To put into context I was a high school QB and played FB/H Back on offense and monster back on defense at Tulane U..

I was always a frustrated QB at heart and was disappointed that I was not good enough to play QB collegiately
My evaluations and opinions of Jones are no better than any others but they do come with some level of training

Jones is not flashy and does not make many highlight plays but that does not diminish his ability to pass the ball




RE: producer  
Producer : 10/26/2021 2:45 pm : link
In comment 15430288 Archer said:
Quote:
Again what are you basing your assessment that Jones does not have a strong arm

Is there any empirical data or is this just your observations

If it is your observations than I can't accept this as a fact
To my eye Jones can and has made every throw
He throws a great deep ball with accuracy and velocity
He can throw on the run and across his body

He does not make off platform throws but that is more related to how he was trained

To put into context I was a high school QB and played FB/H Back on offense and monster back on defense at Tulane U..

I was always a frustrated QB at heart and was disappointed that I was not good enough to play QB collegiately
My evaluations and opinions of Jones are no better than any others but they do come with some level of training

Jones is not flashy and does not make many highlight plays but that does not diminish his ability to pass the ball





Here is a throw that Daniel Jones can't make. Period.
Justin Herbert INSANE Throw to Keenan Allen | Cowboys vs. Chargers - ( New Window )
RE: Jones has a weak arm for an NFL QB  
Amtoft : 10/26/2021 2:47 pm : link
In comment 15430236 Producer said:
Quote:
I don't believe you look at Herbert, Stafford, Rodgers, Mahomes, Allen, etc and can't see they have significantly better arm talent than Jones.


He does not have a weak arm for an NFL QB. Stafford, Mahomes, and Allen have the strongest arms in the entire league. If that is your reference Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Joe Burrow, Russell Wilson who you now want to throw in also, Dak Prescott, and Lamar Jackson suck because they have weaker arms than Stafford, Mahomes, and Allen. Just FYI since you don't seem to get it. A strong arm is not the most important thing on a deep throw.

Let's look at Justin Herbert who you bring up a lot who has Keenan Allen and Mike Williams and really look at his deep ball throws

Justin Herbert Intended air yards per passing attempt 7.4 Daniel Jones 8.4
Justin Herbert Completed air yards per pass completion 5.6 Daniel Jones 6.7
Justin Herbert yards after catch per completion 5.4 Daniel Jones 4.6

Maybe your eyes can only see speed of balls and not accuracy?
Producer  
Archer : 10/26/2021 2:50 pm : link
When Jones was drafted it was thought that he did not have arm talent it was also thought that he was not athletic.

This was opinions from people who had never seen him play

These ideas have followed him regardless of what he does

Bye the Cosell has been extremely complimentary about Jones and even mentions his arm strength
I am looking for the video so that I can share

Jones was thought to run a 4.8 forty, what would they have thought if he ran a 4.5 forty ?
RE: RE: Jones has a weak arm for an NFL QB  
Producer : 10/26/2021 2:50 pm : link
In comment 15430298 Amtoft said:
Quote:
In comment 15430236 Producer said:


Quote:


I don't believe you look at Herbert, Stafford, Rodgers, Mahomes, Allen, etc and can't see they have significantly better arm talent than Jones.



He does not have a weak arm for an NFL QB. Stafford, Mahomes, and Allen have the strongest arms in the entire league. If that is your reference Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Joe Burrow, Russell Wilson who you now want to throw in also, Dak Prescott, and Lamar Jackson suck because they have weaker arms than Stafford, Mahomes, and Allen. Just FYI since you don't seem to get it. A strong arm is not the most important thing on a deep throw.

Let's look at Justin Herbert who you bring up a lot who has Keenan Allen and Mike Williams and really look at his deep ball throws

Justin Herbert Intended air yards per passing attempt 7.4 Daniel Jones 8.4
Justin Herbert Completed air yards per pass completion 5.6 Daniel Jones 6.7
Justin Herbert yards after catch per completion 5.4 Daniel Jones 4.6

Maybe your eyes can only see speed of balls and not accuracy?


Is there a reason you are going to air yards and not Y/A? Every normal metric Herbert best's Jones. There is no serious QB analyst that puts Jones in the same category as Herbert. You are losing credibility.
RE: RE: Jones has a weak arm for an NFL QB  
Thegratefulhead : 10/26/2021 2:52 pm : link
In comment 15430298 Amtoft said:
Quote:
In comment 15430236 Producer said:


Quote:


I don't believe you look at Herbert, Stafford, Rodgers, Mahomes, Allen, etc and can't see they have significantly better arm talent than Jones.



He does not have a weak arm for an NFL QB. Stafford, Mahomes, and Allen have the strongest arms in the entire league. If that is your reference Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Joe Burrow, Russell Wilson who you now want to throw in also, Dak Prescott, and Lamar Jackson suck because they have weaker arms than Stafford, Mahomes, and Allen. Just FYI since you don't seem to get it. A strong arm is not the most important thing on a deep throw.

Let's look at Justin Herbert who you bring up a lot who has Keenan Allen and Mike Williams and really look at his deep ball throws

Justin Herbert Intended air yards per passing attempt 7.4 Daniel Jones 8.4
Justin Herbert Completed air yards per pass completion 5.6 Daniel Jones 6.7
Justin Herbert yards after catch per completion 5.4 Daniel Jones 4.6

Maybe your eyes can only see speed of balls and not accuracy?
I concede that Jones has an adequate NFL arm. Deep outs are not real concern for opposing defenses though. That matters. It is not an obstacle to greatness though. It boils down to whether he can put the ball into the end zone with consistency and maintain his increased efficiency. He has to prove that though.

He has not.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Yes  
Amtoft : 10/26/2021 2:58 pm : link
In comment 15430277 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15430265 Amtoft said:


Quote:


In comment 15430176 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15430158 compton said:


Quote:


In comment 15429924 mittenedman said:


Quote:


All with the worst OLine and skill players in the NFL.

What's your point?



Based on this lone stat "sack% 16th (lw: 13)" would suggest that he is playing behind an average line that is far from the worst. I would like to see a stat on pressures to form a definitive opinion about the line play.





I think this might be what you are looking for. Hit the "PRESSURE" tab.
pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/passing_advanced.htm



Again you don't seem to maybe watch the games. You seem to be living in advanced passing stats like that is the tell all. He is the second most blitz QB, but he is only pressured 20.2% which can say see look at the stats his pressure % is less than other QBs. However when you watch the games you also way more plays designed for roll outs to avoid the pressure of our crappy line. How many design roll outs do you see Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Joe Burrow do a game compared to Daniel Jones? In fact you hardly ever see them do that because it is harder to play QB that way rather than sit in a pocket, setting your feet, and find the open man.

Same link you can look at things like Bad throws, Bad throws percentage, On target throws, and on target throw percentage. Two of the highest in bad throws, btpercentage, on target throws, on target percentages are Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers. If I wanted to I could come on here and say look at these stats. Brady and Rodgers aren't any good because they make more bad throws and are less accurate according to these stats. I mean you can find any stats to help or hurt your argument.

What makes you are troll is you use stats to try and help yourself and then your eyes if the stats don't back up the stats. You say things like Aaron Rodgers and Lamar Jackson have dropped passes all while Aaron Rodgers has a 1.4% dropped pass statistic the absolute best by far of all QBs and Lamar Jackson has 4.6% right around middle maybe slightly worse while Daniel Jones is at 6.9% dropped passes second only to Sam Darnold.

You see if your eyes can't see Aaron Rodgers dumping off a 7 yard pass to Davante Adams who then beats everyone for a 20+ yard score giving Aaron Rodgers a TD on his stats, but you can't see say Rudolph stepping out by an inch taking away a TD from Daniel Jones then I can't help you. You see Brown drop 3 TDs from Lamar Jackson, but you can't see Darius Slayton dropping a 50+ yard TD. You can't see things. Which goes back to my original post... you can't see it.

"he blind stares of a million pairs of eyes Looking hard, but won't realize That they will never see"



Rodgers struggled with dropped passes plenty over the last several years. After Adams he had MVS, Lazard, etc who wouldn't even crack the Giants last season. All bums.

Rolling out doesn't make passing harder, it makes it easier which is why it is a staple for rookies and young players. It divides the field in half for the QB and helps define the read.

Anyway, won't continue engaging with someone who calls me a troll. This isn't equal footing. If you can't couch your arguments in a collegial manner why should I bother engaging.


Rodgers has never had a drop rate close to 6.9%... it isn't a thing. His worst year was 5.4% which is 1.5% less which is a over 21% better that what Daniel Jones is dealing with as a 3rd year player.

Rolling out doesn't make passing harder? Cutting off half the field doesn't make passing harder? Throwing on the run rather than sitting in the pocket isn't harder? Are you being serious right now? Why don't all QB roll out every play... Hey it is easier!

I think you are right... stop responding to me and in fact to everyone because you are being dumber and dumber the more this conversion goes on.

Good day sir.
Jones's arm strength is fine.  
Section331 : 10/26/2021 2:58 pm : link
He doesn't have a Mahomes/Josh Allen/Herbert arm, but he doesn't have to. The problem isn't arm strength, it is processing. He has a hard time coming off of his initial read. He throws a good deep ball because he has time, and he can look off the safeties. The shorter patterns are where the problems lie. He rushes things, locks onto his primary, and gets inaccurate when he has to go to secondary receivers.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Yes  
Producer : 10/26/2021 3:01 pm : link
In comment 15430317 Amtoft said:
Quote:
In comment 15430277 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15430265 Amtoft said:


Quote:


In comment 15430176 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15430158 compton said:


Quote:


In comment 15429924 mittenedman said:


Quote:


All with the worst OLine and skill players in the NFL.

What's your point?



Based on this lone stat "sack% 16th (lw: 13)" would suggest that he is playing behind an average line that is far from the worst. I would like to see a stat on pressures to form a definitive opinion about the line play.





I think this might be what you are looking for. Hit the "PRESSURE" tab.
pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/passing_advanced.htm



Again you don't seem to maybe watch the games. You seem to be living in advanced passing stats like that is the tell all. He is the second most blitz QB, but he is only pressured 20.2% which can say see look at the stats his pressure % is less than other QBs. However when you watch the games you also way more plays designed for roll outs to avoid the pressure of our crappy line. How many design roll outs do you see Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Joe Burrow do a game compared to Daniel Jones? In fact you hardly ever see them do that because it is harder to play QB that way rather than sit in a pocket, setting your feet, and find the open man.

Same link you can look at things like Bad throws, Bad throws percentage, On target throws, and on target throw percentage. Two of the highest in bad throws, btpercentage, on target throws, on target percentages are Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers. If I wanted to I could come on here and say look at these stats. Brady and Rodgers aren't any good because they make more bad throws and are less accurate according to these stats. I mean you can find any stats to help or hurt your argument.

What makes you are troll is you use stats to try and help yourself and then your eyes if the stats don't back up the stats. You say things like Aaron Rodgers and Lamar Jackson have dropped passes all while Aaron Rodgers has a 1.4% dropped pass statistic the absolute best by far of all QBs and Lamar Jackson has 4.6% right around middle maybe slightly worse while Daniel Jones is at 6.9% dropped passes second only to Sam Darnold.

You see if your eyes can't see Aaron Rodgers dumping off a 7 yard pass to Davante Adams who then beats everyone for a 20+ yard score giving Aaron Rodgers a TD on his stats, but you can't see say Rudolph stepping out by an inch taking away a TD from Daniel Jones then I can't help you. You see Brown drop 3 TDs from Lamar Jackson, but you can't see Darius Slayton dropping a 50+ yard TD. You can't see things. Which goes back to my original post... you can't see it.

"he blind stares of a million pairs of eyes Looking hard, but won't realize That they will never see"



Rodgers struggled with dropped passes plenty over the last several years. After Adams he had MVS, Lazard, etc who wouldn't even crack the Giants last season. All bums.

Rolling out doesn't make passing harder, it makes it easier which is why it is a staple for rookies and young players. It divides the field in half for the QB and helps define the read.

Anyway, won't continue engaging with someone who calls me a troll. This isn't equal footing. If you can't couch your arguments in a collegial manner why should I bother engaging.



Rodgers has never had a drop rate close to 6.9%... it isn't a thing. His worst year was 5.4% which is 1.5% less which is a over 21% better that what Daniel Jones is dealing with as a 3rd year player.

Rolling out doesn't make passing harder? Cutting off half the field doesn't make passing harder? Throwing on the run rather than sitting in the pocket isn't harder? Are you being serious right now? Why don't all QB roll out every play... Hey it is easier!

I think you are right... stop responding to me and in fact to everyone because you are being dumber and dumber the more this conversion goes on.

Good day sir.


Rolling out effectively cuts the field in half and reduces the amount of field the QB has to process, and lowers the number of reads a QB has to consider. It makes the decision making easier, which is why it is a staple for young QBs. Football 101.
Whatever  
Dukie Dimes : 10/26/2021 3:07 pm : link
Just ignore him. Producer and a bunch of posters in the anti-Jones crowd are fools. They spend all their day looking for something to criticize instead of enjoying watching the team develop. The fact that this bullshit comes up after a 25-3 win (the best win they have had in in like 10 years) is all the proof you need. Just go away already. Nobody but 5-10 other posters in your little group want to hear anything you have to say.
RE: RE: RE: Jones has a weak arm for an NFL QB  
Amtoft : 10/26/2021 3:11 pm : link
In comment 15430302 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15430298 Amtoft said:


Quote:


In comment 15430236 Producer said:


Quote:


I don't believe you look at Herbert, Stafford, Rodgers, Mahomes, Allen, etc and can't see they have significantly better arm talent than Jones.



He does not have a weak arm for an NFL QB. Stafford, Mahomes, and Allen have the strongest arms in the entire league. If that is your reference Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Joe Burrow, Russell Wilson who you now want to throw in also, Dak Prescott, and Lamar Jackson suck because they have weaker arms than Stafford, Mahomes, and Allen. Just FYI since you don't seem to get it. A strong arm is not the most important thing on a deep throw.

Let's look at Justin Herbert who you bring up a lot who has Keenan Allen and Mike Williams and really look at his deep ball throws

Justin Herbert Intended air yards per passing attempt 7.4 Daniel Jones 8.4
Justin Herbert Completed air yards per pass completion 5.6 Daniel Jones 6.7
Justin Herbert yards after catch per completion 5.4 Daniel Jones 4.6

Maybe your eyes can only see speed of balls and not accuracy?



Is there a reason you are going to air yards and not Y/A? Every normal metric Herbert best's Jones. There is no serious QB analyst that puts Jones in the same category as Herbert. You are losing credibility.


Y/A includes things like YAC and doesn't include things like drops. A better stat to look at if anything would be Y/C which is yards per completion but still includes things like YAC which I showed you above Herbert was benefitting from compared to DJ. Herbert YAC or yards per completed pass is 11 compared to DJ 11.3. Really if you want to be real you take Herberts yard per completion and take out his YAC compared to DJs and the numbers get even worse for him when it comes to deeper passing per completion. Yes strong arm is better, no not as accurate deep down the field. Hope that helps you finally.
RE: RE: producer  
joe48 : 10/26/2021 3:15 pm : link
In comment 15430165 Producer said:
[quote] In comment 15430150 Archer said:


Quote:


The PFF stats are more reliable than the ordinary stats
They take into consideration context and that is important

However, regardless of what the stats say, what does the eye test say

Great athlete (yes)
Can make all the throws (yes)
Top long ball passer (yes)
Great runner (yes)
Tough and courageous (yes)
Smart (yes)
Hard worker (yes)
Does he show improvement in areas of weakness (yes)
A leader (yes)
Is he getting better (yes)




I like PFF in general, but their QB stats are open to a lot of question. Their top-10 lists seem random and littered with lesser talents.

Jones cannot make all the throws. He is not a great deep ball passer (as I have said that stat is based on a tiny sample size), and he does not have a great arm. He may be smart but he seems to lack crucial football smarts and instincts. He lacks poise in the pocket. he makes too many mistakes. He is slow to read the field. he suffers from short to intermediate accuracy issues, he locks onto his first read and bird dogs receivers, etc [/quote
This is your opinion. Are you a QB coach or a scout? I see QBs every week make mistakes.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Yes  
Amtoft : 10/26/2021 3:22 pm : link
In comment 15430324 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15430317 Amtoft said:


Quote:


In comment 15430277 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15430265 Amtoft said:


Quote:


In comment 15430176 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15430158 compton said:


Quote:


In comment 15429924 mittenedman said:


Quote:


All with the worst OLine and skill players in the NFL.

What's your point?



Based on this lone stat "sack% 16th (lw: 13)" would suggest that he is playing behind an average line that is far from the worst. I would like to see a stat on pressures to form a definitive opinion about the line play.





I think this might be what you are looking for. Hit the "PRESSURE" tab.
pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/passing_advanced.htm



Again you don't seem to maybe watch the games. You seem to be living in advanced passing stats like that is the tell all. He is the second most blitz QB, but he is only pressured 20.2% which can say see look at the stats his pressure % is less than other QBs. However when you watch the games you also way more plays designed for roll outs to avoid the pressure of our crappy line. How many design roll outs do you see Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Joe Burrow do a game compared to Daniel Jones? In fact you hardly ever see them do that because it is harder to play QB that way rather than sit in a pocket, setting your feet, and find the open man.

Same link you can look at things like Bad throws, Bad throws percentage, On target throws, and on target throw percentage. Two of the highest in bad throws, btpercentage, on target throws, on target percentages are Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers. If I wanted to I could come on here and say look at these stats. Brady and Rodgers aren't any good because they make more bad throws and are less accurate according to these stats. I mean you can find any stats to help or hurt your argument.

What makes you are troll is you use stats to try and help yourself and then your eyes if the stats don't back up the stats. You say things like Aaron Rodgers and Lamar Jackson have dropped passes all while Aaron Rodgers has a 1.4% dropped pass statistic the absolute best by far of all QBs and Lamar Jackson has 4.6% right around middle maybe slightly worse while Daniel Jones is at 6.9% dropped passes second only to Sam Darnold.

You see if your eyes can't see Aaron Rodgers dumping off a 7 yard pass to Davante Adams who then beats everyone for a 20+ yard score giving Aaron Rodgers a TD on his stats, but you can't see say Rudolph stepping out by an inch taking away a TD from Daniel Jones then I can't help you. You see Brown drop 3 TDs from Lamar Jackson, but you can't see Darius Slayton dropping a 50+ yard TD. You can't see things. Which goes back to my original post... you can't see it.

"he blind stares of a million pairs of eyes Looking hard, but won't realize That they will never see"



Rodgers struggled with dropped passes plenty over the last several years. After Adams he had MVS, Lazard, etc who wouldn't even crack the Giants last season. All bums.

Rolling out doesn't make passing harder, it makes it easier which is why it is a staple for rookies and young players. It divides the field in half for the QB and helps define the read.

Anyway, won't continue engaging with someone who calls me a troll. This isn't equal footing. If you can't couch your arguments in a collegial manner why should I bother engaging.



Rodgers has never had a drop rate close to 6.9%... it isn't a thing. His worst year was 5.4% which is 1.5% less which is a over 21% better that what Daniel Jones is dealing with as a 3rd year player.

Rolling out doesn't make passing harder? Cutting off half the field doesn't make passing harder? Throwing on the run rather than sitting in the pocket isn't harder? Are you being serious right now? Why don't all QB roll out every play... Hey it is easier!

I think you are right... stop responding to me and in fact to everyone because you are being dumber and dumber the more this conversion goes on.

Good day sir.



Rolling out effectively cuts the field in half and reduces the amount of field the QB has to process, and lowers the number of reads a QB has to consider. It makes the decision making easier, which is why it is a staple for young QBs. Football 101.


Ok let's try this one more time. We are rolling Jones out more and more as this line falls even more apart right? Can you follow this. We are not roll out so much to make decisions easier for him... still with me? Doing that limits half the field... are you still with me? In doing that it limits what DJ can make happen... Do you understand why? Half the field, smaller targets windows, less open receiver options, less chances for big plays, less opportunities to go deep, etc... This is football 201 next level when you aren't rolling out because of being a rookie but instead because they can't protect you. So maybe further out for you, however let me explain it. When Thomas was is in the game we don't roll out nearly as much because you don't need to do that to avoid pressure from the blindside limiting your QB to only have the field, with smaller windows, less chance for a big play, and you have the whole field to make plays happen. The game isn't easier ... getting a short completion may be easier but the game is not easier. Do you get it now or you just going to keep being stubborn.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: If you can't see it then you can't see it...  
bw in dc : 10/26/2021 3:25 pm : link
In comment 15430019 Amtoft said:
Quote:

Herbert is throwing to Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Cooks at TE, Ekeler the best receiving back in the game, with Ekeler running the ball at RB, and a better OL not to mention better play caller.



Last year, Herbert had one of the worst pass protecting OLs in the NFL. Yet, his QBR was the best in the NFL when he was under pressure. How do you account for that?

Furthermore, who is this "better play caller"? Lombardi? This is Herbert's second year and he's on his second OC. His OC in 2020 was Shane Steichen, who is now in Philly. And this is ostensibly Lomardi's first full time OC gig.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Yes  
Producer : 10/26/2021 3:27 pm : link
In comment 15430356 Amtoft said:
Quote:
In comment 15430324 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15430317 Amtoft said:


Quote:


In comment 15430277 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15430265 Amtoft said:


Quote:


In comment 15430176 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15430158 compton said:


Quote:


In comment 15429924 mittenedman said:


Quote:


All with the worst OLine and skill players in the NFL.

What's your point?



Based on this lone stat "sack% 16th (lw: 13)" would suggest that he is playing behind an average line that is far from the worst. I would like to see a stat on pressures to form a definitive opinion about the line play.





I think this might be what you are looking for. Hit the "PRESSURE" tab.
pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/passing_advanced.htm



Again you don't seem to maybe watch the games. You seem to be living in advanced passing stats like that is the tell all. He is the second most blitz QB, but he is only pressured 20.2% which can say see look at the stats his pressure % is less than other QBs. However when you watch the games you also way more plays designed for roll outs to avoid the pressure of our crappy line. How many design roll outs do you see Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Joe Burrow do a game compared to Daniel Jones? In fact you hardly ever see them do that because it is harder to play QB that way rather than sit in a pocket, setting your feet, and find the open man.

Same link you can look at things like Bad throws, Bad throws percentage, On target throws, and on target throw percentage. Two of the highest in bad throws, btpercentage, on target throws, on target percentages are Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers. If I wanted to I could come on here and say look at these stats. Brady and Rodgers aren't any good because they make more bad throws and are less accurate according to these stats. I mean you can find any stats to help or hurt your argument.

What makes you are troll is you use stats to try and help yourself and then your eyes if the stats don't back up the stats. You say things like Aaron Rodgers and Lamar Jackson have dropped passes all while Aaron Rodgers has a 1.4% dropped pass statistic the absolute best by far of all QBs and Lamar Jackson has 4.6% right around middle maybe slightly worse while Daniel Jones is at 6.9% dropped passes second only to Sam Darnold.

You see if your eyes can't see Aaron Rodgers dumping off a 7 yard pass to Davante Adams who then beats everyone for a 20+ yard score giving Aaron Rodgers a TD on his stats, but you can't see say Rudolph stepping out by an inch taking away a TD from Daniel Jones then I can't help you. You see Brown drop 3 TDs from Lamar Jackson, but you can't see Darius Slayton dropping a 50+ yard TD. You can't see things. Which goes back to my original post... you can't see it.

"he blind stares of a million pairs of eyes Looking hard, but won't realize That they will never see"



Rodgers struggled with dropped passes plenty over the last several years. After Adams he had MVS, Lazard, etc who wouldn't even crack the Giants last season. All bums.

Rolling out doesn't make passing harder, it makes it easier which is why it is a staple for rookies and young players. It divides the field in half for the QB and helps define the read.

Anyway, won't continue engaging with someone who calls me a troll. This isn't equal footing. If you can't couch your arguments in a collegial manner why should I bother engaging.



Rodgers has never had a drop rate close to 6.9%... it isn't a thing. His worst year was 5.4% which is 1.5% less which is a over 21% better that what Daniel Jones is dealing with as a 3rd year player.

Rolling out doesn't make passing harder? Cutting off half the field doesn't make passing harder? Throwing on the run rather than sitting in the pocket isn't harder? Are you being serious right now? Why don't all QB roll out every play... Hey it is easier!

I think you are right... stop responding to me and in fact to everyone because you are being dumber and dumber the more this conversion goes on.

Good day sir.



Rolling out effectively cuts the field in half and reduces the amount of field the QB has to process, and lowers the number of reads a QB has to consider. It makes the decision making easier, which is why it is a staple for young QBs. Football 101.



Ok let's try this one more time. We are rolling Jones out more and more as this line falls even more apart right? Can you follow this. We are not roll out so much to make decisions easier for him... still with me? Doing that limits half the field... are you still with me? In doing that it limits what DJ can make happen... Do you understand why? Half the field, smaller targets windows, less open receiver options, less chances for big plays, less opportunities to go deep, etc... This is football 201 next level when you aren't rolling out because of being a rookie but instead because they can't protect you. So maybe further out for you, however let me explain it. When Thomas was is in the game we don't roll out nearly as much because you don't need to do that to avoid pressure from the blindside limiting your QB to only have the field, with smaller windows, less chance for a big play, and you have the whole field to make plays happen. The game isn't easier ... getting a short completion may be easier but the game is not easier. Do you get it now or you just going to keep being stubborn.


Jones doesn't process the whole field anyway, and he chokes under pressure. They need to mitigate his mistakes by having him roll out and making reads easier for him, get it? He's not Brady back there in case you haven't noticed. Try not to be so obnoxious next time.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Jones has a weak arm for an NFL QB  
Producer : 10/26/2021 3:31 pm : link
In comment 15430340 Amtoft said:
Quote:
In comment 15430302 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15430298 Amtoft said:


Quote:


In comment 15430236 Producer said:


Quote:


I don't believe you look at Herbert, Stafford, Rodgers, Mahomes, Allen, etc and can't see they have significantly better arm talent than Jones.



He does not have a weak arm for an NFL QB. Stafford, Mahomes, and Allen have the strongest arms in the entire league. If that is your reference Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Joe Burrow, Russell Wilson who you now want to throw in also, Dak Prescott, and Lamar Jackson suck because they have weaker arms than Stafford, Mahomes, and Allen. Just FYI since you don't seem to get it. A strong arm is not the most important thing on a deep throw.

Let's look at Justin Herbert who you bring up a lot who has Keenan Allen and Mike Williams and really look at his deep ball throws

Justin Herbert Intended air yards per passing attempt 7.4 Daniel Jones 8.4
Justin Herbert Completed air yards per pass completion 5.6 Daniel Jones 6.7
Justin Herbert yards after catch per completion 5.4 Daniel Jones 4.6

Maybe your eyes can only see speed of balls and not accuracy?



Is there a reason you are going to air yards and not Y/A? Every normal metric Herbert best's Jones. There is no serious QB analyst that puts Jones in the same category as Herbert. You are losing credibility.



Y/A includes things like YAC and doesn't include things like drops. A better stat to look at if anything would be Y/C which is yards per completion but still includes things like YAC which I showed you above Herbert was benefitting from compared to DJ. Herbert YAC or yards per completed pass is 11 compared to DJ 11.3. Really if you want to be real you take Herberts yard per completion and take out his YAC compared to DJs and the numbers get even worse for him when it comes to deeper passing per completion. Yes strong arm is better, no not as accurate deep down the field. Hope that helps you finally.


So your argument is that Jones is better than Herbert and more accurate, even though Herbert's accuracy stats are better. Nice try but who's the one cherry-picking stats. I suggest you go on twitter and insist Daniel jones is better than Justin Herbert. He's not, and you can't find a single credible QB analyst who would agree with you. You should find spots of Cosell discussing Herbert. I'm paraphrasing but he said Herbert is just a different cat from everybody else. He's bigger than Josh Allen, stronger than everyone and the ball comes out like no other. Did you look at that throw I posted above. Jones doesn't even attempt that throw, if he even sees it.
Jones  
Archer : 10/26/2021 3:42 pm : link
If you want to see what Jones can do in a different offense
Watch what he did in his rookie year

Forget the turnovers just watch what he does in a passing offense

Garrett is destroying Jones
Look at the redzone plays they do not exist in this offense
Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: If you can't see it then you can't see it...  
Amtoft : 10/26/2021 3:51 pm : link
In comment 15430360 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15430019 Amtoft said:


Quote:



Herbert is throwing to Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Cooks at TE, Ekeler the best receiving back in the game, with Ekeler running the ball at RB, and a better OL not to mention better play caller.





Last year, Herbert had one of the worst pass protecting OLs in the NFL. Yet, his QBR was the best in the NFL when he was under pressure. How do you account for that?

Furthermore, who is this "better play caller"? Lombardi? This is Herbert's second year and he's on his second OC. His OC in 2020 was Shane Steichen, who is now in Philly. And this is ostensibly Lomardi's first full time OC gig.


Herbert last year was not behind Nate Solder, Skur, Price, Hernandez, and Peart. His line sucked, but come on. That is the worst starting OL I have ever seen. He also had Keenan Allen who is open like every play to get right of the ball quickly. That helps I think we can all agree when there is a heavy pass rush. I will also throw in the QBR is a subjective rating. It will for the most part mirror a winning team. Of course a fair point can be made they are a winning team because of the play of the QB.

Saying that... Your question was why was his QBR was so good when under pressure... He is a good freaking QB with great weapons. No one is saying Herbert isn't a good QB he is great. He has the potential to be Elite really and I would even say he is clearly moving that way.

As for your second question. Yes I believe both those OC are better than Garrett at play calling, well let me correct that. I think Garrett with the right talent can make his system work and when he lacks talent at the skill position like last year or this year with injuries he tries to over correct with more gadgety type plays to try and make up for deficiency. This has worked between the hashes, however has hurt his play calling in the redzone. He has made some of the not only most puzzling, but worst play calling I have ever seen inside the 5 yard especially. I do not believe the other two would be making the same type of bad calls compared to what he has shown.
RE: Jones  
Producer : 10/26/2021 3:51 pm : link
In comment 15430394 Archer said:
Quote:
If you want to see what Jones can do in a different offense
Watch what he did in his rookie year

Forget the turnovers just watch what he does in a passing offense

Garrett is destroying Jones
Look at the redzone plays they do not exist in this offense Link - ( New Window )


a bit swamped with work but i will check later.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Yes  
Amtoft : 10/26/2021 4:04 pm : link
In comment 15430363 Producer said:
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In comment 15430356 Amtoft said:


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In comment 15430324 Producer said:


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In comment 15430317 Amtoft said:


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In comment 15430277 Producer said:


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In comment 15430265 Amtoft said:


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In comment 15430176 Producer said:


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In comment 15430158 compton said:


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In comment 15429924 mittenedman said:


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All with the worst OLine and skill players in the NFL.

What's your point?



Based on this lone stat "sack% 16th (lw: 13)" would suggest that he is playing behind an average line that is far from the worst. I would like to see a stat on pressures to form a definitive opinion about the line play.





I think this might be what you are looking for. Hit the "PRESSURE" tab.
pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/passing_advanced.htm



Again you don't seem to maybe watch the games. You seem to be living in advanced passing stats like that is the tell all. He is the second most blitz QB, but he is only pressured 20.2% which can say see look at the stats his pressure % is less than other QBs. However when you watch the games you also way more plays designed for roll outs to avoid the pressure of our crappy line. How many design roll outs do you see Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Joe Burrow do a game compared to Daniel Jones? In fact you hardly ever see them do that because it is harder to play QB that way rather than sit in a pocket, setting your feet, and find the open man.

Same link you can look at things like Bad throws, Bad throws percentage, On target throws, and on target throw percentage. Two of the highest in bad throws, btpercentage, on target throws, on target percentages are Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers. If I wanted to I could come on here and say look at these stats. Brady and Rodgers aren't any good because they make more bad throws and are less accurate according to these stats. I mean you can find any stats to help or hurt your argument.

What makes you are troll is you use stats to try and help yourself and then your eyes if the stats don't back up the stats. You say things like Aaron Rodgers and Lamar Jackson have dropped passes all while Aaron Rodgers has a 1.4% dropped pass statistic the absolute best by far of all QBs and Lamar Jackson has 4.6% right around middle maybe slightly worse while Daniel Jones is at 6.9% dropped passes second only to Sam Darnold.

You see if your eyes can't see Aaron Rodgers dumping off a 7 yard pass to Davante Adams who then beats everyone for a 20+ yard score giving Aaron Rodgers a TD on his stats, but you can't see say Rudolph stepping out by an inch taking away a TD from Daniel Jones then I can't help you. You see Brown drop 3 TDs from Lamar Jackson, but you can't see Darius Slayton dropping a 50+ yard TD. You can't see things. Which goes back to my original post... you can't see it.

"he blind stares of a million pairs of eyes Looking hard, but won't realize That they will never see"



Rodgers struggled with dropped passes plenty over the last several years. After Adams he had MVS, Lazard, etc who wouldn't even crack the Giants last season. All bums.

Rolling out doesn't make passing harder, it makes it easier which is why it is a staple for rookies and young players. It divides the field in half for the QB and helps define the read.

Anyway, won't continue engaging with someone who calls me a troll. This isn't equal footing. If you can't couch your arguments in a collegial manner why should I bother engaging.



Rodgers has never had a drop rate close to 6.9%... it isn't a thing. His worst year was 5.4% which is 1.5% less which is a over 21% better that what Daniel Jones is dealing with as a 3rd year player.

Rolling out doesn't make passing harder? Cutting off half the field doesn't make passing harder? Throwing on the run rather than sitting in the pocket isn't harder? Are you being serious right now? Why don't all QB roll out every play... Hey it is easier!

I think you are right... stop responding to me and in fact to everyone because you are being dumber and dumber the more this conversion goes on.

Good day sir.



Rolling out effectively cuts the field in half and reduces the amount of field the QB has to process, and lowers the number of reads a QB has to consider. It makes the decision making easier, which is why it is a staple for young QBs. Football 101.



Ok let's try this one more time. We are rolling Jones out more and more as this line falls even more apart right? Can you follow this. We are not roll out so much to make decisions easier for him... still with me? Doing that limits half the field... are you still with me? In doing that it limits what DJ can make happen... Do you understand why? Half the field, smaller targets windows, less open receiver options, less chances for big plays, less opportunities to go deep, etc... This is football 201 next level when you aren't rolling out because of being a rookie but instead because they can't protect you. So maybe further out for you, however let me explain it. When Thomas was is in the game we don't roll out nearly as much because you don't need to do that to avoid pressure from the blindside limiting your QB to only have the field, with smaller windows, less chance for a big play, and you have the whole field to make plays happen. The game isn't easier ... getting a short completion may be easier but the game is not easier. Do you get it now or you just going to keep being stubborn.



Jones doesn't process the whole field anyway, and he chokes under pressure. They need to mitigate his mistakes by having him roll out and making reads easier for him, get it? He's not Brady back there in case you haven't noticed. Try not to be so obnoxious next time.


Except you are wrong. He didn't roll out hardly at all in Washington game and brought them back under pressure in a game we should have won. He brought them back and won the New Orleans game under huge pressure. He sat in the pocket with time and made play after play to lead us back to win the game. The difference... Barkley, Golladay, Toney, Thomas. Really I say Thomas is our hugest loss. It is forcing all these roll outs and quick plays because we can't protect him. If you want to look at stats. Go look at Daniel Jones stats when he has even a little time and he can sit in the pocket and YES read the whole field... He is a pretty damn good. It is what give me hope that he is going to continue to grow into a really good QB because he is very accurate and does throw a very nice deep back.
Producer  
Archer : 10/26/2021 4:04 pm : link
I am curious if you would change your opinion when you watch him in a passing offense

RE: RE: Bro, you and your anti Jones agenda  
montanagiant : 10/26/2021 4:07 pm : link
In comment 15430269 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15430258 montanagiant said:


Quote:


Has become laughable.

You base your whole argument on stats and then when Amtoft uses stats in his counterargument they all of sudden aren't legit.

Here are some stats for you:
Eight(8) out of your fifteen(15) most recent threads on your profile deal with you running around trying to slam Jones. Out of the remaining seven(7) threads, two(2) are game threads where we know you slammed him also, three(3) are NFTs, and one(1) is regarding Survivor Pools.

DO you not realize how obsessive that is?



Try to stick to the topic. I started exactly three threads about Jones since the start of the season.

LOL...Well, that's an example of a cherry-picked stat. The mere fact you even know how many "you started" while completely ignoring the fact that the only football topics you post on are about Jones is pretty telling in its ownself
RE: RE: RE: Bro, you and your anti Jones agenda  
Amtoft : 10/26/2021 4:12 pm : link
In comment 15430446 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 15430269 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15430258 montanagiant said:


Quote:


Has become laughable.

You base your whole argument on stats and then when Amtoft uses stats in his counterargument they all of sudden aren't legit.

Here are some stats for you:
Eight(8) out of your fifteen(15) most recent threads on your profile deal with you running around trying to slam Jones. Out of the remaining seven(7) threads, two(2) are game threads where we know you slammed him also, three(3) are NFTs, and one(1) is regarding Survivor Pools.

DO you not realize how obsessive that is?



Try to stick to the topic. I started exactly three threads about Jones since the start of the season.


LOL...Well, that's an example of a cherry-picked stat. The mere fact you even know how many "you started" while completely ignoring the fact that the only football topics you post on are about Jones is pretty telling in its ownself


Is there anyone else that has started 3 separate Daniel Jones threads since the season started? I mean Producer has to be among the league leaders.
Touchdowns win games, not passer ratings.  
Gruber : 10/26/2021 4:29 pm : link
And Daniel Jones has thrown the ball some 240 times and managed 5 touchdowns.
Sorry, but you can't get away from that. I'm not saying it won't change, but until DJ starts throwing touchdown passes, I can't really endorse him for next season.
RE: Touchdowns win games, not passer ratings.  
Route 9 : 10/26/2021 4:40 pm : link
In comment 15430481 Gruber said:
Quote:
And Daniel Jones has thrown the ball some 240 times and managed 5 touchdowns.
Sorry, but you can't get away from that. I'm not saying it won't change, but until DJ starts throwing touchdown passes, I can't really endorse him for next season.


But he might beat his total of 11 from last year!!
Gruber  
Archer : 10/26/2021 4:41 pm : link
Watch the video that I previously posted
It reminds people what Jones did as a rookie in a passing friendly offense

Jones is throwing TD passes from all over the field
But what is most apparent is his redzone success

It is the play calling, the Giants used a spread offense and threw the ball in the redzone

They threw the ball into the endzone, they threw fades, corners, posts, outs, screens, etc.

Jones has thrown the ball in the Redzone (20 yards and in) only 22 times almost all outside the endzone

You cannot throw TDs without opportunity
Garrett is the reason that Jones does not throw TD passes
RE: Gruber  
Victor in CT : 10/26/2021 4:42 pm : link
In comment 15430497 Archer said:
Quote:
Watch the video that I previously posted
It reminds people what Jones did as a rookie in a passing friendly offense

Jones is throwing TD passes from all over the field
But what is most apparent is his redzone success

It is the play calling, the Giants used a spread offense and threw the ball in the redzone

They threw the ball into the endzone, they threw fades, corners, posts, outs, screens, etc.

Jones has thrown the ball in the Redzone (20 yards and in) only 22 times almost all outside the endzone

You cannot throw TDs without opportunity
Garrett is the reason that Jones does not throw TD passes


yes. that 3rd and goal play Sunday was typical. 1 receiver in the play. everyone in the CAR 2ndary would have to blow coverage or trip to get TD pass there.
Stop the speculation  
Thegratefulhead : 10/26/2021 4:55 pm : link
IDGAF What if so and was on such team? That is an argument?

2 words

Objective evidence.

In 2019 he threw for 24 TDs 12 Ints 19 fumbles

In 2020 he threw for 11 TDs 10 Ints 10 fumbles

In 2021 he threw for 5 Tds 4 Ints 5 fumbles

It isn't good enough. It is 2021 not 1984. I cannot believe how upset some of you are because people will not call Jones a franchise QB. I can't even. Can we at least get TDs to equal fumbles + Ints before we extend him?

Holy shit.
RE: Gruber  
Route 9 : 10/26/2021 4:57 pm : link
In comment 15430497 Archer said:
Quote:
Watch the video that I previously posted
It reminds people what Jones did as a rookie in a passing friendly offense

Jones is throwing TD passes from all over the field
But what is most apparent is his redzone success

It is the play calling, the Giants used a spread offense and threw the ball in the redzone

They threw the ball into the endzone, they threw fades, corners, posts, outs, screens, etc.

Jones has thrown the ball in the Redzone (20 yards and in) only 22 times almost all outside the endzone

You cannot throw TDs without opportunity
Garrett is the reason that Jones does not throw TD passes


You're talking as if 2019 is a good barometer to demonstrate that the offense was any good. Sure, they were more successful than 2020 but that doesn't prove much.

Jones had very good games against the Redskins, Jets and Lions. Cool. All bottom teams of the league in 2019.

Other than that, he looked flat.
RE: Stop the speculation  
Route 9 : 10/26/2021 4:59 pm : link
In comment 15430521 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
IDGAF What if so and was on such team? That is an argument?

2 words

Objective evidence.

In 2019 he threw for 24 TDs 12 Ints 19 fumbles

In 2020 he threw for 11 TDs 10 Ints 10 fumbles

In 2021 he threw for 5 Tds 4 Ints 5 fumbles

It isn't good enough. It is 2021 not 1984. I cannot believe how upset some of you are because people will not call Jones a franchise QB. I can't even. Can we at least get TDs to equal fumbles + Ints before we extend him?

Holy shit.


Omit the "I can't even" and I agree with you. 100%.
......  
Route 9 : 10/26/2021 4:59 pm : link
11 TD throws for a starting QB in 2020 NFL is fucking pathetic
RE: RE: Stop the speculation  
Thegratefulhead : 10/26/2021 5:00 pm : link
In comment 15430527 Route 9 said:
Quote:
In comment 15430521 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


IDGAF What if so and was on such team? That is an argument?

2 words

Objective evidence.

In 2019 he threw for 24 TDs 12 Ints 19 fumbles

In 2020 he threw for 11 TDs 10 Ints 10 fumbles

In 2021 he threw for 5 Tds 4 Ints 5 fumbles

It isn't good enough. It is 2021 not 1984. I cannot believe how upset some of you are because people will not call Jones a franchise QB. I can't even. Can we at least get TDs to equal fumbles + Ints before we extend him?

Holy shit.



Omit the "I can't even" and I agree with you. 100%.
I would if I could edit :)
RE: Gruber  
Producer : 10/26/2021 6:15 pm : link
In comment 15430497 Archer said:
Quote:
Watch the video that I previously posted
It reminds people what Jones did as a rookie in a passing friendly offense

Jones is throwing TD passes from all over the field
But what is most apparent is his redzone success

It is the play calling, the Giants used a spread offense and threw the ball in the redzone

They threw the ball into the endzone, they threw fades, corners, posts, outs, screens, etc.

Jones has thrown the ball in the Redzone (20 yards and in) only 22 times almost all outside the endzone

You cannot throw TDs without opportunity
Garrett is the reason that Jones does not throw TD passes


But in 2019 he made mistakes and turnovers at an unsustainable rate. Then they put the training wheels on, in year two, so now we have a QB who doesn't turn the ball over but he can't score points. Remember we had five points at the end of the third Q on Sunday. That's pathetic. He has 5 TDs all season. It's abysmal. Jones has yet to show that he can function in a normal offense without making killer mistakes. period and end of story. Until he does it, you shouldn't assume it, because that's a very hard thing to do and he is in year 3 and still hasn't done it.

It's like saying a good physicist should be Einstein, he has all the tools. Yea, but until he does something brilliant, he's not Einstein.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Bro, you and your anti Jones agenda  
montanagiant : 10/26/2021 6:21 pm : link
In comment 15430457 Amtoft said:
Quote:
In comment 15430446 montanagiant said:


Quote:


In comment 15430269 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15430258 montanagiant said:


Quote:


Has become laughable.

You base your whole argument on stats and then when Amtoft uses stats in his counterargument they all of sudden aren't legit.

Here are some stats for you:
Eight(8) out of your fifteen(15) most recent threads on your profile deal with you running around trying to slam Jones. Out of the remaining seven(7) threads, two(2) are game threads where we know you slammed him also, three(3) are NFTs, and one(1) is regarding Survivor Pools.

DO you not realize how obsessive that is?



Try to stick to the topic. I started exactly three threads about Jones since the start of the season.


LOL...Well, that's an example of a cherry-picked stat. The mere fact you even know how many "you started" while completely ignoring the fact that the only football topics you post on are about Jones is pretty telling in its ownself



Is there anyone else that has started 3 separate Daniel Jones threads since the season started? I mean Producer has to be among the league leaders.

I doubt it, but all he ever comes here and posts about is Jones when it's a NY Giants football thread. The better the game Jones has the more he flails about attacking him
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Bro, you and your anti Jones agenda  
Producer : 10/26/2021 6:32 pm : link
In comment 15430703 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 15430457 Amtoft said:


Quote:


In comment 15430446 montanagiant said:


Quote:


In comment 15430269 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15430258 montanagiant said:


Quote:


Has become laughable.

You base your whole argument on stats and then when Amtoft uses stats in his counterargument they all of sudden aren't legit.

Here are some stats for you:
Eight(8) out of your fifteen(15) most recent threads on your profile deal with you running around trying to slam Jones. Out of the remaining seven(7) threads, two(2) are game threads where we know you slammed him also, three(3) are NFTs, and one(1) is regarding Survivor Pools.

DO you not realize how obsessive that is?



Try to stick to the topic. I started exactly three threads about Jones since the start of the season.


LOL...Well, that's an example of a cherry-picked stat. The mere fact you even know how many "you started" while completely ignoring the fact that the only football topics you post on are about Jones is pretty telling in its ownself



Is there anyone else that has started 3 separate Daniel Jones threads since the season started? I mean Producer has to be among the league leaders.


I doubt it, but all he ever comes here and posts about is Jones when it's a NY Giants football thread. The better the game Jones has the more he flails about attacking him


This isn't true montana. I have always been civil to you and I'd appreciate the same treatment. This wasn't some great game by Jones. it was an adequate effort. We had 5 points with a minute to go in the 3rd Q. My point is we should expect more. As a Giants fan I would think you would want more out of this team. Why do you care if Jones is the QB if the team is hot garbage. Would you take a new QB if it meant we could build a sustained winner?

The number of times I comment on Jones is totally immaterial to the points I am making. try and keep to the issues rather than ad hominem nonsense.
NFL Offensive Players of the Week to date for 2021.  
MOOPS : 10/26/2021 6:47 pm : link
Joe Burrow
Josh Allen
Patrick Mahomes
Tom Brady
Matthew Stafford
Kyler Murray
Lamar Jackson
Dak Prescott

and lookie here, DANIEL JONES.

Hey Producer, old Danny Boy's up there with all your favorites.
Or maybe it's the rest of them trying to keep up with the Joneses.
RE: NFL Offensive Players of the Week to date for 2021.  
Producer : 10/26/2021 6:54 pm : link
In comment 15430730 MOOPS said:
Quote:
Joe Burrow
Josh Allen
Patrick Mahomes
Tom Brady
Matthew Stafford
Kyler Murray
Lamar Jackson
Dak Prescott

and lookie here, DANIEL JONES.

Hey Producer, old Danny Boy's up there with all your favorites.
Or maybe it's the rest of them trying to keep up with the Joneses.


Thanks, MOOPS..

other beneficiaries of the player of the week award include Mariota, Trubisky, Brisset, Osweiler, Tyrod Taylor, etc, you get the picture.
RE: RE: NFL Offensive Players of the Week to date for 2021.  
MOOPS : 10/26/2021 7:00 pm : link
In comment 15430733 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15430730 MOOPS said:


Quote:


Joe Burrow
Josh Allen
Patrick Mahomes
Tom Brady
Matthew Stafford
Kyler Murray
Lamar Jackson
Dak Prescott

and lookie here, DANIEL JONES.

Hey Producer, old Danny Boy's up there with all your favorites.
Or maybe it's the rest of them trying to keep up with the Joneses.



Thanks, MOOPS..

other beneficiaries of the player of the week award include Mariota, Trubisky, Brisset, Osweiler, Tyrod Taylor, etc, you get the picture.


In 2021? I think not. Just the ones I mentioned.
Please don't expand the parameters to suit your narrative.
RE: RE: RE: NFL Offensive Players of the Week to date for 2021.  
Producer : 10/26/2021 7:05 pm : link
In comment 15430738 MOOPS said:
Quote:
In comment 15430733 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15430730 MOOPS said:


Quote:


Joe Burrow
Josh Allen
Patrick Mahomes
Tom Brady
Matthew Stafford
Kyler Murray
Lamar Jackson
Dak Prescott

and lookie here, DANIEL JONES.

Hey Producer, old Danny Boy's up there with all your favorites.
Or maybe it's the rest of them trying to keep up with the Joneses.



Thanks, MOOPS..

other beneficiaries of the player of the week award include Mariota, Trubisky, Brisset, Osweiler, Tyrod Taylor, etc, you get the picture.



In 2021? I think not. Just the ones I mentioned.
Please don't expand the parameters to suit your narrative.


And please don't arbitrarily narrow the data to try to make your point. It is instructive to note that winning a POTW award is an unremarkable achievement in the career of an NFL QB, and even QBs who we would all agree are terrible and abject failures win them. That is a fair interpretation of the POTW data. Your arbitrary limitation to the winners of this season is meaningless noise. If you are going to come at me with a debate topic you'll have to do better than this weak shit.
RE: RE: RE: RE: NFL Offensive Players of the Week to date for 2021.  
MOOPS : 10/26/2021 7:46 pm : link
In comment 15430742 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15430738 MOOPS said:


Quote:


In comment 15430733 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15430730 MOOPS said:


Quote:


Joe Burrow
Josh Allen
Patrick Mahomes
Tom Brady
Matthew Stafford
Kyler Murray
Lamar Jackson
Dak Prescott

and lookie here, DANIEL JONES.

Hey Producer, old Danny Boy's up there with all your favorites.
Or maybe it's the rest of them trying to keep up with the Joneses.



Thanks, MOOPS..

other beneficiaries of the player of the week award include Mariota, Trubisky, Brisset, Osweiler, Tyrod Taylor, etc, you get the picture.



In 2021? I think not. Just the ones I mentioned.
Please don't expand the parameters to suit your narrative.



And please don't arbitrarily narrow the data to try to make your point. It is instructive to note that winning a POTW award is an unremarkable achievement in the career of an NFL QB, and even QBs who we would all agree are terrible and abject failures win them. That is a fair interpretation of the POTW data. Your arbitrary limitation to the winners of this season is meaningless noise. If you are going to come at me with a debate topic you'll have to do better than this weak shit.



I presented the data as 2021. Black and white. You can go back and read and verify that if you like. It's not arbitrary.
You want to call it meaningless, feel free if it makes you feel better. I'm preety sure your ego's taken a beating today
But it's far from 'weak shit' in a 'what have you done for me lately' world.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: NFL Offensive Players of the Week to date for 2021.  
Producer : 10/26/2021 7:50 pm : link
In comment 15430779 MOOPS said:
Quote:
In comment 15430742 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15430738 MOOPS said:


Quote:


In comment 15430733 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15430730 MOOPS said:


Quote:


Joe Burrow
Josh Allen
Patrick Mahomes
Tom Brady
Matthew Stafford
Kyler Murray
Lamar Jackson
Dak Prescott

and lookie here, DANIEL JONES.

Hey Producer, old Danny Boy's up there with all your favorites.
Or maybe it's the rest of them trying to keep up with the Joneses.



Thanks, MOOPS..

other beneficiaries of the player of the week award include Mariota, Trubisky, Brisset, Osweiler, Tyrod Taylor, etc, you get the picture.



In 2021? I think not. Just the ones I mentioned.
Please don't expand the parameters to suit your narrative.



And please don't arbitrarily narrow the data to try to make your point. It is instructive to note that winning a POTW award is an unremarkable achievement in the career of an NFL QB, and even QBs who we would all agree are terrible and abject failures win them. That is a fair interpretation of the POTW data. Your arbitrary limitation to the winners of this season is meaningless noise. If you are going to come at me with a debate topic you'll have to do better than this weak shit.




I presented the data as 2021. Black and white. You can go back and read and verify that if you like. It's not arbitrary.
You want to call it meaningless, feel free if it makes you feel better. I'm preety sure your ego's taken a beating today
But it's far from 'weak shit' in a 'what have you done for me lately' world.


Umm my ego is quite intact. The presumption you are making is POTW award is meaningful, placing the winners in a unique set of talents, but with more data we see that it is not just great talents that win it, but also banal talents. You haven't even presented an argument. Just an incomplete data set, and an ad hominem attack. Quit while you have a semblance of dignity.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: You are tiresome  
Gatorade Dunk : 10/27/2021 9:50 am : link
In comment 15430039 Strahan91 said:
Quote:
In comment 15429987 Section331 said:


Quote:


In comment 15429955 Strahan91 said:


Quote:



Go look at Brady's stats in 2019 with little skill position talent and an average OL vs 2020 and 2021 with top skill position guys and OL and tell me it doesn't matter...



You're not helping yourself by bringing up Brady in a Daniel Jones discussion. I already made an apt comparison, or are you going to argue that the 1-15 Jaguars had a better supporting cast?


Straw man.

Minshew's stats are heavily influenced by garbage time when they were getting blown out. Hell, their average point differential was -11.6. In fact his completion percentage in the red zone was 40%. The team won 1 game after all so this isn't rocket science and yet their backs averaged a full ypa more than the giants backs have but hey... never let the facts get in the way of a good narrative.

This is where things get tricky - you're discounting Minshew's stats because of garbage time stat-padding, but the Giants face a significant amount of garbage time themselves. Some of that is baked into DJ's stats as well. Which is to say that if you are going to toss a Minshew comparison out because of garbage time stats, you are also suggesting that DJ's own stats are somewhat inflated, right?
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