Yesterday, during numerous discussions it was said the "question was settled" and Jones is the answer, and Daniel Jones is "near elite".
For everybody's reference here are Daniel Jones pass rankings after 7 Weeks:
Y/A: 21st (last week: 18)
QBR: 22nd (lw: 22)
QB Rating 26th (lw: 26)
TD% 32nd (lw: 32)
sack% 16th (lw: 13)
Red Zone Passing
Cmp% Inside 20: 34% worst among starting QBs (lw: 27%)
Cmp% Inside 10: 30% 29th among starting QBs (lw: 14%)
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In comment 15429973 Eric from BBI said:
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One-trick ponies usually quickly wear out their welcome on BBI.
Eric, are you ordering me not to post Jones' weekly ranks? If you say so, I will refrain from doing it. You are in charge.
In my defense I have rarely started any threads on Jones, I think just two since the season started, and I have started many NFT threads and survivor pool threads. Just because people here accuse me of obsessively starting Jones threads doesn't make it true.
The only thing I ever see you post is how much Daniel Jones sucks, even when he plays well.
You either have an unhealthy obsession with Jones being the anti-Christ or you're trolling.
My point to you is people are quickly tuning you out.
ok. thanks for the warning. I was planning to post Jones' weekly ranks, as I did last week and this week, whether they are good or bad, but it seems I risk banishment if I do so, so I will refrain from doing it.
I don't agree that discussing the QBs overall performance is trolling or that it is akin to calling Jones the ant-Christ, but this is your site, and if you want to admonish me while ignoring folks who clearly cross the line, that is your prerogative.
Thanks for the warning, sir.
Also stats can be misleading and cannot be viewed in a vacuum.
Prior to last week Jones has had only (7) pass plays within the 10 yard zone and only one in the endzone.
Jones has had only (22) passes within 20 yards.
The lack of opportunity is related to poor play calling not Jones ability.
Better stats are those that dig deeper and address opportunity, likely to be successful plays, etc.
Those include Pro Football Reference NFL advanced QB stats ,
Pro Football Focus advanced metrics,
Well if you remove the Rams game it gets much better, of course. But it will for every QB if you remove their worst game. Should we ONLY remove Jones' worst game, and not others? That's the very definition of grading on a curve.
I would be open to including any stats in a weekly update, but I won't be continuing this effort, as I have been warned by the site leadership that they view posting our QBs weekly rankings as trolling.
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In comment 15429983 Producer said:
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In comment 15429973 Eric from BBI said:
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One-trick ponies usually quickly wear out their welcome on BBI.
Eric, are you ordering me not to post Jones' weekly ranks? If you say so, I will refrain from doing it. You are in charge.
In my defense I have rarely started any threads on Jones, I think just two since the season started, and I have started many NFT threads and survivor pool threads. Just because people here accuse me of obsessively starting Jones threads doesn't make it true.
The only thing I ever see you post is how much Daniel Jones sucks, even when he plays well.
You either have an unhealthy obsession with Jones being the anti-Christ or you're trolling.
My point to you is people are quickly tuning you out.
ok. thanks for the warning. I was planning to post Jones' weekly ranks, as I did last week and this week, whether they are good or bad, but it seems I risk banishment if I do so, so I will refrain from doing it.
I don't agree that discussing the QBs overall performance is trolling or that it is akin to calling Jones the ant-Christ, but this is your site, and if you want to admonish me while ignoring folks who clearly cross the line, that is your prerogative.
Thanks for the warning, sir.
Overreact much? I feel like he's trying to give you constructive criticism. If he was going to ban you, you'd probably be gone by now.
Did you see the OL on Sunday and what he was able to accomplish with basically nothing at his disposal?
At this point, it is pretty clear that Jones can and will be a really good QB, just a matter of time.
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In comment 15429986 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 15429983 Producer said:
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In comment 15429973 Eric from BBI said:
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One-trick ponies usually quickly wear out their welcome on BBI.
Eric, are you ordering me not to post Jones' weekly ranks? If you say so, I will refrain from doing it. You are in charge.
In my defense I have rarely started any threads on Jones, I think just two since the season started, and I have started many NFT threads and survivor pool threads. Just because people here accuse me of obsessively starting Jones threads doesn't make it true.
The only thing I ever see you post is how much Daniel Jones sucks, even when he plays well.
You either have an unhealthy obsession with Jones being the anti-Christ or you're trolling.
My point to you is people are quickly tuning you out.
ok. thanks for the warning. I was planning to post Jones' weekly ranks, as I did last week and this week, whether they are good or bad, but it seems I risk banishment if I do so, so I will refrain from doing it.
I don't agree that discussing the QBs overall performance is trolling or that it is akin to calling Jones the ant-Christ, but this is your site, and if you want to admonish me while ignoring folks who clearly cross the line, that is your prerogative.
Thanks for the warning, sir.
Overreact much? I feel like he's trying to give you constructive criticism. If he was going to ban you, you'd probably be gone by now.
Yes I think you are right. Eric, is a mensch and I appreciate the warning. Nevertheless, why would I continue this practice unless it was expressly clear that I don't risk banishment.
Just for shits and giggles I looked it up:
60% comp %
4/7 td-int
4 fumbles (2 lost)
66.47 passer rating
And that was with Kelce and T Hill possibly the 2 most dynamic guys at their position in the whole league and also helped greatly by the WFTgame and their bottom 4 defense in the league.
See what happens when you try and make plays with 1000 lbs of angry defensive lineman on top of you every play?
There was a meme going around a couple weeks back when Hill and Kelce both left the game that went something like: "Patrick Mahomes without Kelce and Hill" with a photo of Spencer Rattler. Tells you all you need to know
Did you see the OL on Sunday and what he was able to accomplish with basically nothing at his disposal?
At this point, it is pretty clear that Jones can and will be a really good QB, just a matter of time.
I don't think that is clear. But I hope you are right.
Did you see the OL on Sunday and what he was able to accomplish with basically nothing at his disposal?
At this point, it is pretty clear that Jones can and will be a really good QB, just a matter of time.
My problem is how much longer do we wait? Because lets just say he gets next year as well and we have the same problems - how much are we willing to pay him?
I dont care if he is our QB next year or not. But we he has shown so far in his career isnt good enough. We cannot pay him 35-40 plus million dollars for what he has shown regardless of surrounding talent.
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In comment 15429976 Producer said:
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In comment 15429970 Amtoft said:
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If you don't see a fiery hard working guy that is a leader then you can't see it. If you don't see a QB that worked to fix his biggest issue then you can't see it. If you don't see a guy fighting to win games then you can't see it. If you can't see a guy playing without his top 3 WRs, Starting RB, with a back up LT, Backup backup LG, backup Center, Backup RT that is out there laying it out for a one handed catch then you can't see it.
In all honestly if the Giants had Barkley, Golladay, Shepard, Toney, Thomas, Lemieux, and Gates... How much better do you think he would have done than 70% completion over 200 yards 1 TD and no turnovers while also rushing and catching a pass?
Again if you can't see it then hey you can't see it.
Hard work has nothing to do with it. A lot of guys who play QB work hard. It's about talent and ability. And Daniel Jones has shown through 2 and a half seasons that he cannot perform with the best at the position. maybe he will get better, but likely he will not.
Don't you want the NY Giants to have the best QB possible, and not just some jag that Gettleman had a goofy feeling about?
As I stated... YOU can't see it. I noticed you didn't answer my question. So the new question is ... do you just want to be right and blind? Because right now your are wrong and blind.
I think my intention is fairly obvious. I want the Giants to have a great QB. Right now I don't think that's Jones and the numbers back up that position. I would love it if Jones became Burrow, or Herbert, or Mahomes, or Brady.
Burrow is throwing to Chase, Tee Higgins, Their TE that keeps making plays, Tyler Boyd, with Joe Mixon at RB, and better OL not to mention better play caller.
Herbert is throwing to Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Cooks at TE, Ekeler the best receiving back in the game, with Ekeler running the ball at RB, and a better OL not to mention better play caller.
Mahomes is throwing to Tyreek Hill and freaking Travis Kelce! they also have injuries at RB and there OL isn't good although probably better than ours a huge upgrade at play calling and yet only one more win than us.
Brady is the best of all time throwing to Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, Antonio Brown, Gronk, with Lenard Fornette at RB, a much better healthy OL, and one of the best play callers.
Daniel Jones is throwing to Darius Slayton, Dante Pettis, John Ross, with Engram at TE, backup RB, horrible OL, and the worst play caller of the bunch by far.
Still Daniel Jones threw for over 200 yards on 70% completion to this rag tag group of WRs with a backup RB, another horrible play call inside the 3 yard line, while running well and making a crazy one handed catch without making a turnover.
Again you clearly can't see it!
There are few if any QB's that would have significant stats with this team right now without 4 of its TOP playmakers and on its 6th or 7th OL combination.
I'm not so sure you can accuse someone of lacking real football acumen when you're basically criticizing them for not accounting for hypotheticals.
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well, let's see. How did he do when he had his left tackle and all of his weapons available in New Orleans?
Did you see the OL on Sunday and what he was able to accomplish with basically nothing at his disposal?
At this point, it is pretty clear that Jones can and will be a really good QB, just a matter of time.
My problem is how much longer do we wait? Because lets just say he gets next year as well and we have the same problems - how much are we willing to pay him?
I dont care if he is our QB next year or not. But we he has shown so far in his career isnt good enough. We cannot pay him 35-40 plus million dollars for what he has shown regardless of surrounding talent.
I don't think you *wait* for anybody unless they have unreal QB traits. It's year 3, we have accumulated poor performance and no elite traits. I don't *wait* for a QB like that to show me who he is. I start looking for an upgrade.
But that's what happens when you don't have time to throw or the talent around you can't really do much.
There have been countless examples this season of someone being WIDE open for either a touchdown or a huge play, but Jones has about 1 second to throw so the play dies. Teams with above average OLs make those plays happen. And we would be making those plays if 3 out of 5 starters on our OL weren't hurt and we had I don't know....2 of our skill players back?
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In comment 15430007 ryanmkeane said:
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well, let's see. How did he do when he had his left tackle and all of his weapons available in New Orleans?
Did you see the OL on Sunday and what he was able to accomplish with basically nothing at his disposal?
At this point, it is pretty clear that Jones can and will be a really good QB, just a matter of time.
My problem is how much longer do we wait? Because lets just say he gets next year as well and we have the same problems - how much are we willing to pay him?
I dont care if he is our QB next year or not. But we he has shown so far in his career isnt good enough. We cannot pay him 35-40 plus million dollars for what he has shown regardless of surrounding talent.
I don't think you *wait* for anybody unless they have unreal QB traits. It's year 3, we have accumulated poor performance and no elite traits. I don't *wait* for a QB like that to show me who he is. I start looking for an upgrade.
His running capability on RPO's is not elite? Please name me 3 or 4 QBs better at it. I would argue his ability to throw the deep ball is near elite as well.
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In comment 15429980 Amtoft said:
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In comment 15429976 Producer said:
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In comment 15429970 Amtoft said:
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If you don't see a fiery hard working guy that is a leader then you can't see it. If you don't see a QB that worked to fix his biggest issue then you can't see it. If you don't see a guy fighting to win games then you can't see it. If you can't see a guy playing without his top 3 WRs, Starting RB, with a back up LT, Backup backup LG, backup Center, Backup RT that is out there laying it out for a one handed catch then you can't see it.
In all honestly if the Giants had Barkley, Golladay, Shepard, Toney, Thomas, Lemieux, and Gates... How much better do you think he would have done than 70% completion over 200 yards 1 TD and no turnovers while also rushing and catching a pass?
Again if you can't see it then hey you can't see it.
Hard work has nothing to do with it. A lot of guys who play QB work hard. It's about talent and ability. And Daniel Jones has shown through 2 and a half seasons that he cannot perform with the best at the position. maybe he will get better, but likely he will not.
Don't you want the NY Giants to have the best QB possible, and not just some jag that Gettleman had a goofy feeling about?
As I stated... YOU can't see it. I noticed you didn't answer my question. So the new question is ... do you just want to be right and blind? Because right now your are wrong and blind.
I think my intention is fairly obvious. I want the Giants to have a great QB. Right now I don't think that's Jones and the numbers back up that position. I would love it if Jones became Burrow, or Herbert, or Mahomes, or Brady.
Burrow is throwing to Chase, Tee Higgins, Their TE that keeps making plays, Tyler Boyd, with Joe Mixon at RB, and better OL not to mention better play caller.
Herbert is throwing to Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Cooks at TE, Ekeler the best receiving back in the game, with Ekeler running the ball at RB, and a better OL not to mention better play caller.
Mahomes is throwing to Tyreek Hill and freaking Travis Kelce! they also have injuries at RB and there OL isn't good although probably better than ours a huge upgrade at play calling and yet only one more win than us.
Brady is the best of all time throwing to Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, Antonio Brown, Gronk, with Lenard Fornette at RB, a much better healthy OL, and one of the best play callers.
Daniel Jones is throwing to Darius Slayton, Dante Pettis, John Ross, with Engram at TE, backup RB, horrible OL, and the worst play caller of the bunch by far.
Still Daniel Jones threw for over 200 yards on 70% completion to this rag tag group of WRs with a backup RB, another horrible play call inside the 3 yard line, while running well and making a crazy one handed catch without making a turnover.
Again you clearly can't see it!
every QB deals with injuries and subpar performance at some point. Marquis brown dropped three TD passes *in one game*. Rodgers dealt with WRs who routinely dropped TD passes. Wilson dealt with a broken line. Of course one, two or three games of poor performance can be excused. With Jones we are talking about a career of substandard play.
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This guy is a fucking obsessed creep.
At what point in life did you come to the conclusion that banal discussion of a public figure or athlete was a threat directed at them personally? It would seem you are having trouble making distinctions between conversation and threats. When you direct hostile epithets my way you are engaging in the anti-social practice of threatening someone.
If these distinctions are hard for you, I would be happy to recommend a therapist or psychiatrist to help you sort things out.
Only when it's pretty much the only thing the poster in question talks about. I'm far from the only one who has noticed this, weirdo. You act like Jones fucked your mother or something.
BTW, what's your previous name on here?
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In comment 15430017 GNewGiants said:
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In comment 15430007 ryanmkeane said:
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well, let's see. How did he do when he had his left tackle and all of his weapons available in New Orleans?
Did you see the OL on Sunday and what he was able to accomplish with basically nothing at his disposal?
At this point, it is pretty clear that Jones can and will be a really good QB, just a matter of time.
My problem is how much longer do we wait? Because lets just say he gets next year as well and we have the same problems - how much are we willing to pay him?
I dont care if he is our QB next year or not. But we he has shown so far in his career isnt good enough. We cannot pay him 35-40 plus million dollars for what he has shown regardless of surrounding talent.
I don't think you *wait* for anybody unless they have unreal QB traits. It's year 3, we have accumulated poor performance and no elite traits. I don't *wait* for a QB like that to show me who he is. I start looking for an upgrade.
His running capability on RPO's is not elite? Please name me 3 or 4 QBs better at it. I would argue his ability to throw the deep ball is near elite as well.
The RPO, read option stuff he is very good at, but they don't base the offense around it like Lamar. What I'm saying is he doesn't have elite arm skills. He is not an elite deep ball passer.
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In comment 15429890 Dave in Hoboken said:
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This guy is a fucking obsessed creep.
At what point in life did you come to the conclusion that banal discussion of a public figure or athlete was a threat directed at them personally? It would seem you are having trouble making distinctions between conversation and threats. When you direct hostile epithets my way you are engaging in the anti-social practice of threatening someone.
If these distinctions are hard for you, I would be happy to recommend a therapist or psychiatrist to help you sort things out.
Only when it's pretty much the only thing the poster in question talks about. I'm far from the only one who has noticed this, weirdo. You act like Jones fucked your mother or something.
BTW, what's your previous name on here?
get a shrink. You need help.
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In comment 15429949 Producer said:
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In comment 15429890 Dave in Hoboken said:
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This guy is a fucking obsessed creep.
At what point in life did you come to the conclusion that banal discussion of a public figure or athlete was a threat directed at them personally? It would seem you are having trouble making distinctions between conversation and threats. When you direct hostile epithets my way you are engaging in the anti-social practice of threatening someone.
If these distinctions are hard for you, I would be happy to recommend a therapist or psychiatrist to help you sort things out.
Only when it's pretty much the only thing the poster in question talks about. I'm far from the only one who has noticed this, weirdo. You act like Jones fucked your mother or something.
BTW, what's your previous name on here?
get a shrink. You need help.
That's rich coming from you. I look forward to your next 100 posts on here being all about Jones. Good to see you getting shit on in your own thread. Well deserved.
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Go look at Brady's stats in 2019 with little skill position talent and an average OL vs 2020 and 2021 with top skill position guys and OL and tell me it doesn't matter...
You're not helping yourself by bringing up Brady in a Daniel Jones discussion. I already made an apt comparison, or are you going to argue that the 1-15 Jaguars had a better supporting cast?
Straw man.
Minshew's stats are heavily influenced by garbage time when they were getting blown out. Hell, their average point differential was -11.6. In fact his completion percentage in the red zone was 40%. The team won 1 game after all so this isn't rocket science and yet their backs averaged a full ypa more than the giants backs have but hey... never let the facts get in the way of a good narrative.
The question about Jones really is this: most of us would now concede he is a legit NFL QB. But, is he a backup?, marginal starter? top 15? or elite? I honestly can't even give an opinion because his supporting cast changes so much from week to week, it contributes to inconsistency, and what he can try to do.
But pulling stats out of your ass, that are posted in a vacuum, without context is more than tiresome. And you two do it every single day!
But that's what happens when you don't have time to throw or the talent around you can't really do much.
There have been countless examples this season of someone being WIDE open for either a touchdown or a huge play, but Jones has about 1 second to throw so the play dies. Teams with above average OLs make those plays happen. And we would be making those plays if 3 out of 5 starters on our OL weren't hurt and we had I don't know....2 of our skill players back?
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. No doubt Jones has been given a rough hand. But he can be in a bad situation and still not be good enough. Both things can be true. The overall numbers are not a lie. He's not productive. The pressure is in the top third of the league this year. He is getting less pressure. yet his numbers still lag. I think we need to stop making excuses and start expecting 2 to 3 TD passes with low INTs, most weeks, and occasionally 4 or 5. He has 5 TDs *all season*. If he can't accomplish that, he's not the guy for the job.
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In comment 15429988 Producer said:
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In comment 15429980 Amtoft said:
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In comment 15429976 Producer said:
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In comment 15429970 Amtoft said:
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If you don't see a fiery hard working guy that is a leader then you can't see it. If you don't see a QB that worked to fix his biggest issue then you can't see it. If you don't see a guy fighting to win games then you can't see it. If you can't see a guy playing without his top 3 WRs, Starting RB, with a back up LT, Backup backup LG, backup Center, Backup RT that is out there laying it out for a one handed catch then you can't see it.
In all honestly if the Giants had Barkley, Golladay, Shepard, Toney, Thomas, Lemieux, and Gates... How much better do you think he would have done than 70% completion over 200 yards 1 TD and no turnovers while also rushing and catching a pass?
Again if you can't see it then hey you can't see it.
Hard work has nothing to do with it. A lot of guys who play QB work hard. It's about talent and ability. And Daniel Jones has shown through 2 and a half seasons that he cannot perform with the best at the position. maybe he will get better, but likely he will not.
Don't you want the NY Giants to have the best QB possible, and not just some jag that Gettleman had a goofy feeling about?
As I stated... YOU can't see it. I noticed you didn't answer my question. So the new question is ... do you just want to be right and blind? Because right now your are wrong and blind.
I think my intention is fairly obvious. I want the Giants to have a great QB. Right now I don't think that's Jones and the numbers back up that position. I would love it if Jones became Burrow, or Herbert, or Mahomes, or Brady.
Burrow is throwing to Chase, Tee Higgins, Their TE that keeps making plays, Tyler Boyd, with Joe Mixon at RB, and better OL not to mention better play caller.
Herbert is throwing to Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Cooks at TE, Ekeler the best receiving back in the game, with Ekeler running the ball at RB, and a better OL not to mention better play caller.
Mahomes is throwing to Tyreek Hill and freaking Travis Kelce! they also have injuries at RB and there OL isn't good although probably better than ours a huge upgrade at play calling and yet only one more win than us.
Brady is the best of all time throwing to Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, Antonio Brown, Gronk, with Lenard Fornette at RB, a much better healthy OL, and one of the best play callers.
Daniel Jones is throwing to Darius Slayton, Dante Pettis, John Ross, with Engram at TE, backup RB, horrible OL, and the worst play caller of the bunch by far.
Still Daniel Jones threw for over 200 yards on 70% completion to this rag tag group of WRs with a backup RB, another horrible play call inside the 3 yard line, while running well and making a crazy one handed catch without making a turnover.
Again you clearly can't see it!
every QB deals with injuries and subpar performance at some point. Marquis brown dropped three TD passes *in one game*. Rodgers dealt with WRs who routinely dropped TD passes. Wilson dealt with a broken line. Of course one, two or three games of poor performance can be excused. With Jones we are talking about a career of substandard play.
Dealing with injuries? I listed who Daniel Jones played with. Showed that he still completed 70% of his passes for over 200 yards with a TD, no turnovers, good rushes, amazing catch in a blow out win.
The fact is you listed a QBs saying you wished he played like player X, Y, and Z. I listed their players. Now you want to add Aaron Rodgers another HoF QB who plays with if not the best at least top 3 WR in the game. Plus lets throw Lamar Jackson former MVP and you have the nerve to say "Marquis brown dropped three TD passes *in one game*. Rodgers dealt with WRs who routinely dropped TD passes."
So dropped passes... which QB and team has more dropped passes? Aaron Rodgers, Lamar Jackson, Justin Herbert, Tom Brady, Patrick Mahomes, Joe Burrow, or Daniel Jones?
Give you a hint the Giants are near the top of the list in dropped passes.
You can't SEE it... I am sorry... I really am. You can keep trying to add the best QBs in the game with way better weapons, better OL, better coaches, better defenses, etc and say why isn't he as good as these players... Ummm with exception of Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady two of best ever all your QBs would struggle on this team with what we have.
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i get guys like you and Terps pointing to the stats. Stats tell a lot. What they don't tell is when your entire offense is injured and you're working with a patchwork OL. Someone just posted Mahomes stats for a good chunk....obviously he's an incredible quarterback. Nobody would dispute that.
But that's what happens when you don't have time to throw or the talent around you can't really do much.
There have been countless examples this season of someone being WIDE open for either a touchdown or a huge play, but Jones has about 1 second to throw so the play dies. Teams with above average OLs make those plays happen. And we would be making those plays if 3 out of 5 starters on our OL weren't hurt and we had I don't know....2 of our skill players back?
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. No doubt Jones has been given a rough hand. But he can be in a bad situation and still not be good enough. Both things can be true. The overall numbers are not a lie. He's not productive. The pressure is in the top third of the league this year. He is getting less pressure. yet his numbers still lag. I think we need to stop making excuses and start expecting 2 to 3 TD passes with low INTs, most weeks, and occasionally 4 or 5. He has 5 TDs *all season*. If he can't accomplish that, he's not the guy for the job.
4 or 5 TD's a game??? WTF!!! 30+ TD's over an entire season is considered very good.
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In comment 15430022 Producer said:
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In comment 15430017 GNewGiants said:
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In comment 15430007 ryanmkeane said:
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well, let's see. How did he do when he had his left tackle and all of his weapons available in New Orleans?
Did you see the OL on Sunday and what he was able to accomplish with basically nothing at his disposal?
At this point, it is pretty clear that Jones can and will be a really good QB, just a matter of time.
My problem is how much longer do we wait? Because lets just say he gets next year as well and we have the same problems - how much are we willing to pay him?
I dont care if he is our QB next year or not. But we he has shown so far in his career isnt good enough. We cannot pay him 35-40 plus million dollars for what he has shown regardless of surrounding talent.
I don't think you *wait* for anybody unless they have unreal QB traits. It's year 3, we have accumulated poor performance and no elite traits. I don't *wait* for a QB like that to show me who he is. I start looking for an upgrade.
His running capability on RPO's is not elite? Please name me 3 or 4 QBs better at it. I would argue his ability to throw the deep ball is near elite as well.
The RPO, read option stuff he is very good at, but they don't base the offense around it like Lamar. What I'm saying is he doesn't have elite arm skills. He is not an elite deep ball passer.
wait so you are saying he is bad because that stats show he is bad, but isn't an elite deep ball passer even though the stats show he is one of the best? You are so confusing
The question about Jones really is this: most of us would now concede he is a legit NFL QB. But, is he a backup?, marginal starter? top 15? or elite? I honestly can't even give an opinion because his supporting cast changes so much from week to week, it contributes to inconsistency, and what he can try to do.
But pulling stats out of your ass, that are posted in a vacuum, without context is more than tiresome. And you two do it every single day!
I don't see people here giving excuses for other QBs. I just hear guys like Tua suck, even though he had 4TDs this week. Nobody is digging into the reasons he had a rough start. Stats are meant to show how a player is doing compared to others, independent of excuses. Jones has been bottom third in the league for the entirety of his career. Perhaps, excuses explain that lack of production, but probably not. This is the NFL, every QB deals with hardship.
See how I gave a reply without calling you a name? Imagine that?
What the fuck do you think Daniel Jones is supposed to do without the majority of his OL and basically his entire cast of skill players? What quarterback, currently on earth, is going to do well in that situation?
That is not an excuse. It's reality. It is playing out before our eyes. Anyone with half a brain realizes that any QB is going to struggle with the injury hand that the Giants have been dealt with.
Stop saying that it's an "excuse." An excuse would be something like "Jones is still young" or "well, Barkley dropped that pass that would have won the game" or "well, the playcalling sucked that game, we should have won."
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In comment 15430025 ryanmkeane said:
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i get guys like you and Terps pointing to the stats. Stats tell a lot. What they don't tell is when your entire offense is injured and you're working with a patchwork OL. Someone just posted Mahomes stats for a good chunk....obviously he's an incredible quarterback. Nobody would dispute that.
But that's what happens when you don't have time to throw or the talent around you can't really do much.
There have been countless examples this season of someone being WIDE open for either a touchdown or a huge play, but Jones has about 1 second to throw so the play dies. Teams with above average OLs make those plays happen. And we would be making those plays if 3 out of 5 starters on our OL weren't hurt and we had I don't know....2 of our skill players back?
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. No doubt Jones has been given a rough hand. But he can be in a bad situation and still not be good enough. Both things can be true. The overall numbers are not a lie. He's not productive. The pressure is in the top third of the league this year. He is getting less pressure. yet his numbers still lag. I think we need to stop making excuses and start expecting 2 to 3 TD passes with low INTs, most weeks, and occasionally 4 or 5. He has 5 TDs *all season*. If he can't accomplish that, he's not the guy for the job.
4 or 5 TD's a game??? WTF!!! 30+ TD's over an entire season is considered very good.
No I said 2 to 3 a game with the occasional 4/5 game. But feel free to get worked up over something I didn't say.
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In comment 15429955 Strahan91 said:
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Go look at Brady's stats in 2019 with little skill position talent and an average OL vs 2020 and 2021 with top skill position guys and OL and tell me it doesn't matter...
You're not helping yourself by bringing up Brady in a Daniel Jones discussion. I already made an apt comparison, or are you going to argue that the 1-15 Jaguars had a better supporting cast?
Straw man.
Minshew's stats are heavily influenced by garbage time when they were getting blown out. Hell, their average point differential was -11.6. In fact his completion percentage in the red zone was 40%. The team won 1 game after all so this isn't rocket science and yet their backs averaged a full ypa more than the giants backs have but hey... never let the facts get in the way of a good narrative.
But couldn't you argue that Jones's stats are bolstered by garbage time as well? Definitely seems like the Giabts have a penchant for moving the ball and scoring TDs late in a game that's out of reach.
What the fuck do you think Daniel Jones is supposed to do without the majority of his OL and basically his entire cast of skill players? What quarterback, currently on earth, is going to do well in that situation?
That is not an excuse. It's reality. It is playing out before our eyes. Anyone with half a brain realizes that any QB is going to struggle with the injury hand that the Giants have been dealt with.
Stop saying that it's an "excuse." An excuse would be something like "Jones is still young" or "well, Barkley dropped that pass that would have won the game" or "well, the playcalling sucked that game, we should have won."
Jones' pressure stats are dramatically improved. He is in the top third of the league, receiving least pressure. yet his passing metrics are about the same. Why?
Straw man.
Minshew's stats are heavily influenced by garbage time when they were getting blown out. Hell, their average point differential was -11.6. In fact his completion percentage in the red zone was 40%. The team won 1 game after all so this isn't rocket science and yet their backs averaged a full ypa more than the giants backs have but hey... never let the facts get in the way of a good narrative.
Maybe you need to look up the term straw man. Minshew was 6-6 as a rookie, so it wasn't all garbage time. And 40% would be looking up from DJ's stellar 34%. But I guess this is where you cite playcalling again.
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In comment 15430043 Producer said:
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In comment 15430025 ryanmkeane said:
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i get guys like you and Terps pointing to the stats. Stats tell a lot. What they don't tell is when your entire offense is injured and you're working with a patchwork OL. Someone just posted Mahomes stats for a good chunk....obviously he's an incredible quarterback. Nobody would dispute that.
But that's what happens when you don't have time to throw or the talent around you can't really do much.
There have been countless examples this season of someone being WIDE open for either a touchdown or a huge play, but Jones has about 1 second to throw so the play dies. Teams with above average OLs make those plays happen. And we would be making those plays if 3 out of 5 starters on our OL weren't hurt and we had I don't know....2 of our skill players back?
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. No doubt Jones has been given a rough hand. But he can be in a bad situation and still not be good enough. Both things can be true. The overall numbers are not a lie. He's not productive. The pressure is in the top third of the league this year. He is getting less pressure. yet his numbers still lag. I think we need to stop making excuses and start expecting 2 to 3 TD passes with low INTs, most weeks, and occasionally 4 or 5. He has 5 TDs *all season*. If he can't accomplish that, he's not the guy for the job.
4 or 5 TD's a game??? WTF!!! 30+ TD's over an entire season is considered very good.
No I said 2 to 3 a game with the occasional 4/5 game. But feel free to get worked up over something I didn't say.
3 TD's per game will make him compete for records of most passing TD's in a season. I don't want a Jameis Winston throwing 50 TD's and 30 INT's while losing games. If you want to look at QB's, I would say scoring percentage in red zone matters more than passing TD's. We are struggling in that area and not sure if it is Jones or Garrett or some combination of both for that.
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In comment 15430027 Stu11 said:
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In comment 15430022 Producer said:
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In comment 15430017 GNewGiants said:
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In comment 15430007 ryanmkeane said:
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well, let's see. How did he do when he had his left tackle and all of his weapons available in New Orleans?
Did you see the OL on Sunday and what he was able to accomplish with basically nothing at his disposal?
At this point, it is pretty clear that Jones can and will be a really good QB, just a matter of time.
My problem is how much longer do we wait? Because lets just say he gets next year as well and we have the same problems - how much are we willing to pay him?
I dont care if he is our QB next year or not. But we he has shown so far in his career isnt good enough. We cannot pay him 35-40 plus million dollars for what he has shown regardless of surrounding talent.
I don't think you *wait* for anybody unless they have unreal QB traits. It's year 3, we have accumulated poor performance and no elite traits. I don't *wait* for a QB like that to show me who he is. I start looking for an upgrade.
His running capability on RPO's is not elite? Please name me 3 or 4 QBs better at it. I would argue his ability to throw the deep ball is near elite as well.
The RPO, read option stuff he is very good at, but they don't base the offense around it like Lamar. What I'm saying is he doesn't have elite arm skills. He is not an elite deep ball passer.
wait so you are saying he is bad because that stats show he is bad, but isn't an elite deep ball passer even though the stats show he is one of the best? You are so confusing
The stats do not confirm he is one of the best deep ball passers. This myth is based on a single stat from last season where he had a high comp % based on 39 throws, a tiny sample size. It doesn't take into account his arm strength, the difficulty of the throws, and sample size. My eyes tell me he is in the bottom half of the league on deep balls. he doesn't throw the deep ball as well as Mahomes, Herbert, Wilson, Allen, Rodgers, Murray, Burrow, and others.
No I said 2 to 3 a game with the occasional 4/5 game. But feel free to get worked up over something I didn't say.
That would still put a QB up over 40 a season if you do some math. Tom Brady is on pace for 50...and no one has claimed Jones is in the same stratosphere as Brady.
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In comment 15430047 AnnapolisMike said:
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In comment 15430043 Producer said:
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In comment 15430025 ryanmkeane said:
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i get guys like you and Terps pointing to the stats. Stats tell a lot. What they don't tell is when your entire offense is injured and you're working with a patchwork OL. Someone just posted Mahomes stats for a good chunk....obviously he's an incredible quarterback. Nobody would dispute that.
But that's what happens when you don't have time to throw or the talent around you can't really do much.
There have been countless examples this season of someone being WIDE open for either a touchdown or a huge play, but Jones has about 1 second to throw so the play dies. Teams with above average OLs make those plays happen. And we would be making those plays if 3 out of 5 starters on our OL weren't hurt and we had I don't know....2 of our skill players back?
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. No doubt Jones has been given a rough hand. But he can be in a bad situation and still not be good enough. Both things can be true. The overall numbers are not a lie. He's not productive. The pressure is in the top third of the league this year. He is getting less pressure. yet his numbers still lag. I think we need to stop making excuses and start expecting 2 to 3 TD passes with low INTs, most weeks, and occasionally 4 or 5. He has 5 TDs *all season*. If he can't accomplish that, he's not the guy for the job.
4 or 5 TD's a game??? WTF!!! 30+ TD's over an entire season is considered very good.
No I said 2 to 3 a game with the occasional 4/5 game. But feel free to get worked up over something I didn't say.
3 TD's per game will make him compete for records of most passing TD's in a season. I don't want a Jameis Winston throwing 50 TD's and 30 INT's while losing games. If you want to look at QB's, I would say scoring percentage in red zone matters more than passing TD's. We are struggling in that area and not sure if it is Jones or Garrett or some combination of both for that.
Well I think Jones has some accountability and it is something he needs to work on, but they can't run the ball very well and teams that can't run the ball well struggle inside the 10. Throw in some of the weirdest play calling inside the 3 I have ever seen. I mean a TE run, a one man route on a roll out, you can't make this up. I think Jones will do what he does and that is work on his negatives and get better. He has already shown he can in so many areas. He is accurate which is important in the redzone. He has the potential, but that is his biggest issue is fixing that. I wonder if having a healthy Golladay will help with being able to have a tall fade target.
Except for a few things I didn't see.
I didn't see the stat for 'heart', or 'toughness', or 'determination' or 'leadership'. I didn't even see the 'value to the team' stat.
To me, what matters is wins and losses. But if you want to micro-analyze the QB, those missing stats that I just listed are what I actually care about, not all those other ones.
Would I love for Jones to be among the "stat leaders" ? Sure! But if he's not then again I want wins, then I want those intangibles. Good stats are a result of a winning team, not the cause of a winning team.
The stats include likely to be successful plays. This takes into account; separation of receivers, pressure, windows, length of throw, etc.
When considering these advanced stats Jones constantly comes in as top 10 and if you discounted his play vs. the Rams he would be top 5
These stats put the QB performance in context rather than in a vacuum
OL, WR, RB, play impacts are considered
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In comment 15430033 Producer said:
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In comment 15430027 Stu11 said:
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In comment 15430022 Producer said:
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In comment 15430017 GNewGiants said:
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In comment 15430007 ryanmkeane said:
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well, let's see. How did he do when he had his left tackle and all of his weapons available in New Orleans?
Did you see the OL on Sunday and what he was able to accomplish with basically nothing at his disposal?
At this point, it is pretty clear that Jones can and will be a really good QB, just a matter of time.
My problem is how much longer do we wait? Because lets just say he gets next year as well and we have the same problems - how much are we willing to pay him?
I dont care if he is our QB next year or not. But we he has shown so far in his career isnt good enough. We cannot pay him 35-40 plus million dollars for what he has shown regardless of surrounding talent.
I don't think you *wait* for anybody unless they have unreal QB traits. It's year 3, we have accumulated poor performance and no elite traits. I don't *wait* for a QB like that to show me who he is. I start looking for an upgrade.
His running capability on RPO's is not elite? Please name me 3 or 4 QBs better at it. I would argue his ability to throw the deep ball is near elite as well.
The RPO, read option stuff he is very good at, but they don't base the offense around it like Lamar. What I'm saying is he doesn't have elite arm skills. He is not an elite deep ball passer.
wait so you are saying he is bad because that stats show he is bad, but isn't an elite deep ball passer even though the stats show he is one of the best? You are so confusing
The stats do not confirm he is one of the best deep ball passers. This myth is based on a single stat from last season where he had a high comp % based on 39 throws, a tiny sample size. It doesn't take into account his arm strength, the difficulty of the throws, and sample size. My eyes tell me he is in the bottom half of the league on deep balls. he doesn't throw the deep ball as well as Mahomes, Herbert, Wilson, Allen, Rodgers, Murray, Burrow, and others.
Seriously everything this year is that throw 10 feet over someone's head; that lollipop he throws which he actually connected one to Toney that made a diving catch where the DB didn't know where the ball is. It is not like other QBs in the league who recognize one on one ;a safety that isn't going to be there if you throw a laser; and just throw a laser. Even like Eli did with Slayton in his last MNF game or like the Manningham play.
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In comment 15430033 Producer said:
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In comment 15430027 Stu11 said:
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In comment 15430017 GNewGiants said:
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In comment 15430007 ryanmkeane said:
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well, let's see. How did he do when he had his left tackle and all of his weapons available in New Orleans?
Did you see the OL on Sunday and what he was able to accomplish with basically nothing at his disposal?
At this point, it is pretty clear that Jones can and will be a really good QB, just a matter of time.
My problem is how much longer do we wait? Because lets just say he gets next year as well and we have the same problems - how much are we willing to pay him?
I dont care if he is our QB next year or not. But we he has shown so far in his career isnt good enough. We cannot pay him 35-40 plus million dollars for what he has shown regardless of surrounding talent.
I don't think you *wait* for anybody unless they have unreal QB traits. It's year 3, we have accumulated poor performance and no elite traits. I don't *wait* for a QB like that to show me who he is. I start looking for an upgrade.
His running capability on RPO's is not elite? Please name me 3 or 4 QBs better at it. I would argue his ability to throw the deep ball is near elite as well.
The RPO, read option stuff he is very good at, but they don't base the offense around it like Lamar. What I'm saying is he doesn't have elite arm skills. He is not an elite deep ball passer.
wait so you are saying he is bad because that stats show he is bad, but isn't an elite deep ball passer even though the stats show he is one of the best? You are so confusing
The stats do not confirm he is one of the best deep ball passers. This myth is based on a single stat from last season where he had a high comp % based on 39 throws, a tiny sample size. It doesn't take into account his arm strength, the difficulty of the throws, and sample size. My eyes tell me he is in the bottom half of the league on deep balls. he doesn't throw the deep ball as well as Mahomes, Herbert, Wilson, Allen, Rodgers, Murray, Burrow, and others.
Wait did you are just say that. Yes the stats say he was the absolute best last year, BUT forget the stats because your eyes say different? I get it now... you are a troll. I reserve this just for trolls... You are an idiot.
The stats include likely to be successful plays. This takes into account; separation of receivers, pressure, windows, length of throw, etc.
When considering these advanced stats Jones constantly comes in as top 10 and if you discounted his play vs. the Rams he would be top 5
These stats put the QB performance in context rather than in a vacuum
OL, WR, RB, play impacts are considered
If you are talking the PFF stats, I don't know what to say. The top tens in those lists are usually a bizarre assortment of QBs, and seems to make them sort of unreliable. but at some point you expect context to even out, no? Or are we going to continue with this narrative that Jones can never get it together via normal metrics because the deck is stacked against him. But send me links to the metrics you have in mind. I'd be happy to consider them. Mind you, in PFFs overall ranking Jones is somewhere 15-20. That's not top ten.
I don't need to. It is year 3 all his "weapons " were there earlier in the year, and he proved they were a waste of money because he didn't know how to use Golladay. he played 3 piss poor teams ; went 0-3; threw hardly any TDs yet again and Garrett still either doesn't trust him to play loose or is a complete idiot according to some.
But why then did the Cowboys QBs have like 20+ TDs a year when he coached there? Why did he do his don Shula impersonation with the deep outs the first pass play Glennon got put into the game when Jones got hurt? Year 3 is too long to be askng question s like these and getting temporary sugar highs on one off good games and trick plays
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In comment 15430048 Amtoft said:
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In comment 15430027 Stu11 said:
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In comment 15430007 ryanmkeane said:
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well, let's see. How did he do when he had his left tackle and all of his weapons available in New Orleans?
Did you see the OL on Sunday and what he was able to accomplish with basically nothing at his disposal?
At this point, it is pretty clear that Jones can and will be a really good QB, just a matter of time.
My problem is how much longer do we wait? Because lets just say he gets next year as well and we have the same problems - how much are we willing to pay him?
I dont care if he is our QB next year or not. But we he has shown so far in his career isnt good enough. We cannot pay him 35-40 plus million dollars for what he has shown regardless of surrounding talent.
I don't think you *wait* for anybody unless they have unreal QB traits. It's year 3, we have accumulated poor performance and no elite traits. I don't *wait* for a QB like that to show me who he is. I start looking for an upgrade.
His running capability on RPO's is not elite? Please name me 3 or 4 QBs better at it. I would argue his ability to throw the deep ball is near elite as well.
The RPO, read option stuff he is very good at, but they don't base the offense around it like Lamar. What I'm saying is he doesn't have elite arm skills. He is not an elite deep ball passer.
wait so you are saying he is bad because that stats show he is bad, but isn't an elite deep ball passer even though the stats show he is one of the best? You are so confusing
The stats do not confirm he is one of the best deep ball passers. This myth is based on a single stat from last season where he had a high comp % based on 39 throws, a tiny sample size. It doesn't take into account his arm strength, the difficulty of the throws, and sample size. My eyes tell me he is in the bottom half of the league on deep balls. he doesn't throw the deep ball as well as Mahomes, Herbert, Wilson, Allen, Rodgers, Murray, Burrow, and others.
Wait did you are just say that. Yes the stats say he was the absolute best last year, BUT forget the stats because your eyes say different? I get it now... you are a troll. I reserve this just for trolls... You are an idiot.
I explained the problems with that stat, small sample size, but you chose to ignore it, and then insult me. Who's the troll here?
And if you accept that deep ball number, based on small sample size, you have to accept the short and intermediate accuracy number *from the same data set* derived from a *much larger sample size* and therefore *more reliable* that says Jones was the worst QB in the league in short and intermediate accuracy, which is unsustainable for a starting QB in the NFL. Are you willing to accept that number as well, or do you have a reason why we should accept the number you like and not the number you don't like.
And no serious QB analyst thinks Daniel Jones is a better deep ball passer than Herbert, Mahomes, Rodgers, Wilson, etc.. None.
It could be as simple as if he keeps his eyes downfield he isn't aware of the rush and turns the ball over in the pocket. When he makes an effort to reduce turnovers he loses the big plays.
It could be as simple as if he keeps his eyes downfield he isn't aware of the rush and turns the ball over in the pocket. When he makes an effort to reduce turnovers he loses the big plays.
I have made that point elsewhere as well. Daniel Jones had the offense reduced to limit turnovers, but it came at the cost of production. It is an unsustainable lack of production. Can he be productive and limit turnovers at the same time? That's the question.
seriously. I'm a moron, idiot, douchnozzle troll who got reprimanded by the owner of the board for dispassionately posting the Giants' QB stats on a Giants message board.
They take into consideration context and that is important
However, regardless of what the stats say, what does the eye test say
Great athlete (yes)
Can make all the throws (yes)
Top long ball passer (yes)
Great runner (yes)
Tough and courageous (yes)
Smart (yes)
Hard worker (yes)
Does he show improvement in areas of weakness (yes)
A leader (yes)
Is he getting better (yes)