I know there are a number of folks who don't enjoy debating the economics, in the spirit of a productive convo if you fall in that group maybe politely not chime in? Thanks
This offseason Jones will be eligible for:
1) a contract extension
2) a fully guaranteed 5th year option for 2023 at $21.3M
Going into his 4th year Jones will cost the Giants ~8.3M against the 2022 cap, roughly half of that figure is the amortized potion of his signing bonus ($4.1M)
The balance of his cap charge is a fully guaranteed salary and fully guaranteed roster bonus, meaning if he's cut that will accelerate, and if he was traded it would be his new team's responsibility.
So this offseason the Giants can:
1) Exercise his 5th year option, retain his rights and his 2023 salary will be $21.3M fully guaranteed
2) Decline his 5th year option, but still have the rights to franchise tag him for 2023 at somewhere north of $25M
3) Decline his option and let him walk after the 2022 season
4) Extend Jones on a multi-year deal
5) Trade Jones and save ~4M
So two simple questions:
If Jones does blank by the end of the year -- I want the the Giants to pick one of the five options.
If he continues his pace of pathetic TD production and the team produces a below-average offense, trade him for a first or second if you can. If you can't, keep him next year.
If Jones continues scoring TDs at the current rate I would try to trade him for anything we could get.
If trading Jones is on the table, who would be a viable trading partner for the Giants?
Might it make more sense to decline the option, see if the Giants can in fact construct a better line, then franchise or extend him if he blossoms?
That's exactly what I'm asking -- what would you need to see by the end of the year to make a decision?
Personally, I am seeing Jones more and more as the long term solution. So depending upon how the rest of this season plays out - I wouldn't be opposed to an extension. The most important factor to me is his health. If he can remain healthy through the end of the season, that's as important to me as any statistic / TD-INTO ratio.
That's going to get quite expensive. Jones would make 8M + 23M over the next two years, and depending on the draft slot a pick could make 10M + 10M as well.
The option year being fully guaranteed now really changes the calculus for me.
I would be absolutely shocked if the Giants traded Jones.
Just cant see it happening, I think they like him too much off the field, and he has shown enough on the field to keep rolling with him for at least two more years.
Let's say the franchise tender is like 28M for the '23 season, might it make more sense to not exercise the option and see how it plays out?
If he has a dynamite season next year, aren't the Giants extending him anyway?
I think it's worth the risk of letting him play out his fourth season and not getting locked in.
The good news, he's got a contract for '22 and they can pick up his option for '23, and not rush into a multi-year extension.
I would be open to a trade if it made sense. If we got a third or higher draft pick.
I'd prefer that they move on from him after this year just because Mara might have a hard on for "easy to root for" QBs and that might result in a long term deal. Which would give this team an extremely low ceiling for a long time.
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but I remain in the trade him camp, unless he starts producing in the red zone and fixes some of the read progression issues.
I would be absolutely shocked if the Giants traded Jones.
Just cant see it happening, I think they like him too much off the field, and he has shown enough on the field to keep rolling with him for at least two more years.
Of course they won't trade him.
I expect them to pick up his option. And I expect the Giants to continue to be a poor offensive team the next couple years.
So happy you can read the minds of the organization. What is actual Golladay's status, since you are in the know.
By the way, I think we are *excepting*, if you know what I mean.
Under a fully competent regime who has enough bonafides to not ridicule analysis or declare "full bloom love" while reminding female reporters that "Rome wasn't built in a day, dahlin'"? I'd probably extend to him the 5th year option and actually engage with him regarding the scheme that he feels would be most effective for him to produce actual victories.
It's ironic, actually. DG loves DJ, and somehow is completely unable to craft a functional roster to surround him. I'm sure it's just bad luck and not arrogant incompetence or anything.
They have to decide on his option this offseason.
What NFL QBs have regularly had a "full strength complement of players" around them?
This is such a horseshit excuse. DJ has underperformed even if you grade on a curve. 11 passing TDs for a full season? How is Jalen Hurts doing this season on a shit team with plenty of injuries? Will he finish the year with 11 passing TDs?
The standard should be that Jones proves he can perform, not evidence that he can't perform.
I dont he has proven anything to this point. Happy to be proven wrong by years end
I get a little itchy now that the option is fully guaranteed.
I don't see the downside of declining the option, letting him play, and franchising if necessary.
If Jones plays well in year four the Giants are locking him up with a top of market deal in my view.
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But yes either way I'm picking up the option. No extension until I see more good play. And in doing so, would in no way effect drafting a QB in the 1st round for me.
That's going to get quite expensive. Jones would make 8M + 23M over the next two years, and depending on the draft slot a pick could make 10M + 10M as well.
The option year being fully guaranteed now really changes the calculus for me.
I thought draft slot didn't matter. He will make 21.3 Million on his 5th year option unless he makes the probowl this year or next. This year is pretty much out so unless he makes the probowl next year he will make 21.3 or 25.6 if he makes probowl.
I am more worried about Lawerence.... 5th year option at 11.5 and will go to 16.6 if he makes the probowl this year or next. Most likely he won't make the probowl either but damn that is a lot if he gets in as a sub or something.
So what are your opinions on how the Giants will do that?
Reading the OP post better If Jones continues to improve I would happily pickup the 5th year option. $21.3 doesn't scare me. The team has a lot of draft choices including two in the 1st round so theoretically they should be able to improve in areas of need without being forced into relying solely on FA.
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In comment 15430118 rasbutant said:
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But yes either way I'm picking up the option. No extension until I see more good play. And in doing so, would in no way effect drafting a QB in the 1st round for me.
That's going to get quite expensive. Jones would make 8M + 23M over the next two years, and depending on the draft slot a pick could make 10M + 10M as well.
The option year being fully guaranteed now really changes the calculus for me.
I thought draft slot didn't matter. He will make 21.3 Million on his 5th year option unless he makes the probowl this year or next. This year is pretty much out so unless he makes the probowl next year he will make 21.3 or 25.6 if he makes probowl.
I'm referring to the scenario you described -- exercise the option and also potentially draft a QB.
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The good news, he's got a contract for '22 and they can pick up his option for '23, and not rush into a multi-year extension.
I get a little itchy now that the option is fully guaranteed.
I don't see the downside of declining the option, letting him play, and franchising if necessary.
If Jones plays well in year four the Giants are locking him up with a top of market deal in my view.
This also makes a lot of sense as you are only playing with an extra $4m
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uptick in production, and Jones unveils special characteristics that franchise Qbs should have, the obvious answer is to find a trade partner. And I think we could...
If trading Jones is on the table, who would be a viable trading partner for the Giants?
I could see Houston and Pittsburgh.
If Seattle and Vegas move on from Wilson and Carr, then those two as well.
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The good news, he's got a contract for '22 and they can pick up his option for '23, and not rush into a multi-year extension.
I get a little itchy now that the option is fully guaranteed.
I don't see the downside of declining the option, letting him play, and franchising if necessary.
If Jones plays well in year four the Giants are locking him up with a top of market deal in my view.
I'm ok declining the option too, actually prefer it, put the heat on him so this reaches a decision point sooner than later.
This is such a horseshit excuse. DJ has underperformed even if you grade on a curve. 11 passing TDs for a full season? How is Jalen Hurts doing this season on a shit team with plenty of injuries? Will he finish the year with 11 passing TDs?
It doesn't matter GD, than they'll point to playcalling. As if Jones is the only QB in recent history to be drafted high by, you'll never guess it, a BAD team!
if he regresses substantially then you decline it but still likely give him 1 more year with a new coordinator. worst case of needing to tag him is actually best case because it means he's progressed and at that point the tag # may be irrelevant because they are trying to extend long term anyway.
if he improves further AND the team improves enough to be confident in Judge, then you extend if that's what Judge wants to do. But this almost depends more on Judge than Jones. Unless he turns into Josh Allen very quickly you don't extend if you think you might be changing coaches soon.
the 5th year option cap hit for a QB is perfectly livable and if recent trends are any indication it's highly likely he'll retain some surplus value even with no improvement.
I dont believe there are any QBs that will be no brainers in the draft over the next year or so where they are likely to pick, so the only 2 viable alternative considerations are Watson and Wilson. I very much doubt the NYG would trade for Watson given his off field situation so that leaves Wilson - and if you have a chance to get him you I think you have to do that even though he's about to turn 33. Any team with Russ should get a 3-5 year window to win a SB.
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early to tell. Need to wait until the end of the season.
That's exactly what I'm asking -- what would you need to see by the end of the year to make a decision?
I'm not sure what I would need to see by the end of the season in terms of his performance. There are too many other unknown factors, including his health and that of the other players.
I think Hurts would absolutely stink on the Giants.
I think that's exactly where I am too.
Because his 5th year option and franchise tender are in the same neighborhood -- I'd pick the path where I have flexibility.
I'd gladly risk paying the extra $5M difference between the option and the tender for the flexibility.
Mostly because I believe the Giants will extend him after year four if he plays well.
Getting better at making reads is one of my biggest concerns with Jones. That problem wasn't on display last Sunday because the bad OL play caused Garrett to correctly call a lot of roll outs and quick throws like slants where Jones got rid of the ball within one to three seconds. But an argument can be made that despite all the injuries to his playmakers, he hasn't improved enough in this area in year three. As I said, I nonetheless want to wait until the end of the season to get a comprehensive view of his performance.
That's what I'd do in that scenario too. Seems like it presents the least amount of risk and offers the most flexibility.
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and tell him to go earn his next contract in year 4 since we could franchise him still if he miraculously played at an elite level.
I think that's exactly where I am too.
Because his 5th year option and franchise tender are in the same neighborhood -- I'd pick the path where I have flexibility.
I'd gladly risk paying the extra $5M difference between the option and the tender for the flexibility.
Mostly because I believe the Giants will extend him after year four if he plays well.
Yes, this.
Thanks for gracing us with your opinions as we wallow in uselessness = )
If the options are:
- Exercise the option and be locked into $23.1M for 2023
- Decline the option and have the franchise tender in your back pocket say at even $30M
What's more risky? Paying an extra $7M for a QB you like, or paying $23.1M to a QB you don't?
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The good news, he's got a contract for '22 and they can pick up his option for '23, and not rush into a multi-year extension.
I get a little itchy now that the option is fully guaranteed.
I don't see the downside of declining the option, letting him play, and franchising if necessary.
If Jones plays well in year four the Giants are locking him up with a top of market deal in my view.
The thought of enduring four years of mediocre quarterbacking just to see if he proves it...wow.
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and tell him to go earn his next contract in year 4 since we could franchise him still if he miraculously played at an elite level.
I think that's exactly where I am too.
Because his 5th year option and franchise tender are in the same neighborhood -- I'd pick the path where I have flexibility.
I'd gladly risk paying the extra $5M difference between the option and the tender for the flexibility.
Mostly because I believe the Giants will extend him after year four if he plays well.
I also saw the Baker Mayfield "news" (rumor really) earlier today about him wanting around $30m per. Jones is surely below that which big picture isn't much more per year than the 5th year option.
IF I"m reading the list correctly.
Right now Jones is an IF guy. He needs to be less yo-yo and more consistent, especially in the red zone. Put together 5-6 consistent games in a row, score TDs or don't pick up the 5th year option.
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In comment 15430131 JonC said:
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The good news, he's got a contract for '22 and they can pick up his option for '23, and not rush into a multi-year extension.
I get a little itchy now that the option is fully guaranteed.
I don't see the downside of declining the option, letting him play, and franchising if necessary.
If Jones plays well in year four the Giants are locking him up with a top of market deal in my view.
The thought of enduring four years of mediocre quarterbacking just to see if he proves it...wow.
How is that 4 more years? You've raised his level of play to mediocre? Wow even Terps is seeing improvement!
You could argue that’s not good use of limited resources. Paying Jones $21 million in Year 5 just to bench him midway through for a rookie isn’t smart operating.
They can only pick up the option if they’re 100% sold he’s the guy for the foreseeable future.
However, looking at the schedule - there is no reason the Giants shouldn’t be able to go 7-3 the rest of the way. If Jones plays very well and leads the Giants to a winning record, ask me again.
The biggest issues most people had with Jones were his pocket awareness and fumbling. He has stepped up big time in the last 12 months in both areas.
While there wasn't a big sample size to work with, I also felt like he didn't throw well on the run. Last week, he was pinpoint on all those throws, and really only missed 2 passes all day.
Mahomes, Murray, Burrow, Herbert, Allen, and Jackson are the only guys I wouldn't have Jones in front of if building a team for the future. Of all those guys, Jones has the most scope for improvement because he has yet to play with a solid team (Look at what a scrub like Darnold did with a better team around him for a few weeks).
If we can get healthy on Offense after the bye, I expect Jones to light it up in the 2nd half of the season.
There was a vocal segment here who wanted to drop Eli early on in our Superbowl season. The guys piling on Jones are going to look just as foolish (though I suspect their might be some overlap in the 2 groups).
However, looking at the schedule - there is no reason the Giants shouldn’t be able to go 7-3 the rest of the way. If Jones plays very well and leads the Giants to a winning record, ask me again.
7-3 the rest of the way?
It’s either, let see when he has a competent line and run game or it’s blow the entire thing up and restart with a rookie qb contract which I can get behind. To say jones hasn’t shown enough and he has to improve his TDs is insane. Look at this weeks game. Rudolph could have easily scored a td. Slayton was open deep but the line couldn’t hold up on a 7 man protection to block 4. That’s a 3 TD day. Instead he had one. Fans see what they want but the eye test is all you need. Stop with the statistics.
However, looking at the schedule - there is no reason the Giants shouldn’t be able to go 7-3 the rest of the way. If Jones plays very well and leads the Giants to a winning record, ask me again.
Where are these 7 wins coming from?
I see Burrow & Herbert doing it with their teams. The Bengals OL stinks. The 2nd half schedule includes two games against Philly, WFT, Miami & Chicago. Let’s see Jones go out and ball.
Is that not reasonable?
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and tell him to go earn his next contract in year 4 since we could franchise him still if he miraculously played at an elite level.
I think that's exactly where I am too.
Because his 5th year option and franchise tender are in the same neighborhood -- I'd pick the path where I have flexibility.
I'd gladly risk paying the extra $5M difference between the option and the tender for the flexibility.
Mostly because I believe the Giants will extend him after year four if he plays well.
That's a good point, there isn't a hell of a lot of difference between option and franchise tag RIGHT NOW. But the tag number could go up.
I'm fine with the option, it's only one year, and it kicks the can down the road for a year.
If they stay healthy. I’d be happy getting a sample size of how he does with all three playing.
Means Giants can still draft a qb prospect in 22-23 and challenge him by all means. They should draft some comp. they should also continue to improve the team overall and continue to evaluate.
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As of today, I think the Giants might be able to fetch a 2nd rounder for him. I think that is the best option currently.
However, looking at the schedule - there is no reason the Giants shouldn’t be able to go 7-3 the rest of the way. If Jones plays very well and leads the Giants to a winning record, ask me again.
Where are these 7 wins coming from?
7 wins and 3 losses...what are you, kidding me?
Do we get to play the Jets 7 times?
It’s either, let see when he has a competent line and run game or it’s blow the entire thing up and restart with a rookie qb contract which I can get behind. To say jones hasn’t shown enough and he has to improve his TDs is insane. Look at this weeks game. Rudolph could have easily scored a td. Slayton was open deep but the line couldn’t hold up on a 7 man protection to block 4. That’s a 3 TD day. Instead he had one. Fans see what they want but the eye test is all you need. Stop with the statistics.
Multiple things can be true at once. The roster could be terrible but Jones should still be able to show more. Nobody is asking for 5000 yards and 50 tds, but he’s on pace for 12 after throwing 11 last year. Pro football reference charges to search now but I’m sure there’s not many QBs regardless of how bad the team has been to start 13+ games and not break 15 tds in back to back years in the Super Bowl era.
And those things you list at the end happen to every QB every week. You don’t win games on what should have happened if the play went right.
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In comment 15430238 Sean said:
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As of today, I think the Giants might be able to fetch a 2nd rounder for him. I think that is the best option currently.
However, looking at the schedule - there is no reason the Giants shouldn’t be able to go 7-3 the rest of the way. If Jones plays very well and leads the Giants to a winning record, ask me again.
Where are these 7 wins coming from?
7 wins and 3 losses...what are you, kidding me?
Do we get to play the Jets 7 times?
They’ll be hard pressed to hit 7 wins total Let alone 7 of their last 10
I see Burrow & Herbert doing it with their teams. The Bengals OL stinks. The 2nd half schedule includes two games against Philly, WFT, Miami & Chicago. Let’s see Jones go out and ball.
Is that not reasonable?
I don't think it is, 3-7 is more likely for the Giants. Maybe they sneak out an extra 1-2 during the final month, as losing teams fade and prepare to go home.
Burrow & Herbert are two much stronger QB prospects, and with more talent around them, teams that are playing well enough to post good records so far.
It’s either, let see when he has a competent line and run game or it’s blow the entire thing up and restart with a rookie qb contract which I can get behind. To say jones hasn’t shown enough and he has to improve his TDs is insane. Look at this weeks game. Rudolph could have easily scored a td. Slayton was open deep but the line couldn’t hold up on a 7 man protection to block 4. That’s a 3 TD day. Instead he had one. Fans see what they want but the eye test is all you need. Stop with the statistics.
Why is it so difficult to believe DG has done a poor job of putting a good roster together AND that Jones should still be playing better anyway as the #6 overall pick 2.5 half seasons ago?
Jones has been negatively affected by the other Offensive players and he still has to pick up his own game a good amount...
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you can still bring in a rookie though. If Jones plays well, then good problem to have. If not, hand it to the rookie part way through year 4 or in year 5. Point is there's flexibility.
You could argue that’s not good use of limited resources. Paying Jones $21 million in Year 5 just to bench him midway through for a rookie isn’t smart operating.
They can only pick up the option if they’re 100% sold he’s the guy for the foreseeable future.
I may have poorly worded it but in this scenario there isn’t a year 5. Jones starts head 4 and either is replaced at some point during the season by whomever we draft, or in what would be year 5, turn it over to the now sophomore QB. Or don’t take a QB and let Jones play out year 4 and see where we are at and decide on an extension or draft/trade.
2x vs Philly
WFT
Chicago
Miami
Go win some games. Otherwise, I’m resetting at QB. That is my point. Again, is that not reasonable? Burrow doesn’t have excuses and he’s winning. Raise the standards here.
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Why not? The question is how much would you invest in Jones? If he’s going to get a 2nd contract here go out and win.
I see Burrow & Herbert doing it with their teams. The Bengals OL stinks. The 2nd half schedule includes two games against Philly, WFT, Miami & Chicago. Let’s see Jones go out and ball.
Is that not reasonable?
I don't think it is, 3-7 is more likely for the Giants. Maybe they sneak out an extra 1-2 during the final month, as losing teams fade and prepare to go home.
Burrow & Herbert are two much stronger QB prospects, and with more talent around them, teams that are playing well enough to post good records so far.
And this is why I probably opt to reset at QB.
As for talent, didn’t the Giants just pay a ton in FA to win this year? Just awful roster construction.
BPA and if one is available at their pick or with minimal loss of assets AND a clear upgrade draft one. If not wait till the year after or the after market.
Use next draft to strengthen the team in the front 7 and OL. I think they should target a complete TE as well.
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if he remains steady the 5th year option is a no brainer. this seems the most likely scenario. You give him another year, hopefully with a new OC and better OL. If Darnold retained trade value Jones likely will too so the option to move on should still be there.
Thanks for gracing us with your opinions as we wallow in uselessness = )
If the options are:
- Exercise the option and be locked into $23.1M for 2023
- Decline the option and have the franchise tender in your back pocket say at even $30M
What's more risky? Paying an extra $7M for a QB you like, or paying $23.1M to a QB you don't?
Sort of a strawman. I'd wager a lot they like him now and have honestly liked him for the better part of his 2.5 years here. And if he continues to play well they will likely him in the offseason.
So them not liking him would be a big deviation and even if that happens and all hell breaks loose in Judge year 3 and they have to blow up and start over again, in all likelihood he'd still be tradable - as Darnold was.
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In comment 15430202 UConn4523 said:
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you can still bring in a rookie though. If Jones plays well, then good problem to have. If not, hand it to the rookie part way through year 4 or in year 5. Point is there's flexibility.
You could argue that’s not good use of limited resources. Paying Jones $21 million in Year 5 just to bench him midway through for a rookie isn’t smart operating.
They can only pick up the option if they’re 100% sold he’s the guy for the foreseeable future.
I may have poorly worded it but in this scenario there isn’t a year 5. Jones starts head 4 and either is replaced at some point during the season by whomever we draft, or in what would be year 5, turn it over to the now sophomore QB. Or don’t take a QB and let Jones play out year 4 and see where we are at and decide on an extension or draft/trade.
Rereading I think you may have worded it fine and it interpreted as benching him midway through year 5. This could be the right way to go about it because if in year 5 he shows he is the franchise QB you can just sign him to a long term deal. Year 5 probably costs you more than the option year but the last two years of the deal would be a bargain the way contracts continue to rise.
If they stay healthy. I’d be happy getting a sample size of how he does with all three playing.
Means Giants can still draft a qb prospect in 22-23 and challenge him by all means. They should draft some comp. they should also continue to improve the team overall and continue to evaluate.
What's this crap I keep reading about challenging Jones with a rookie? For a forum dedicated to one topic, it's shocking how little knowledge some have.
The one thing about Jones that there's no dispute on is that he gives 100%. He works hard in the off season, at practice, and puts it all on the line in games.
You put a rookie behind this line, with these weapons and he won't just be seeing ghosts, he'll become one. Shit, more than half of the starting quarterbacks in the NFL would be looking like dogshit in this situation.
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In comment 15430253 Sean said:
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Why not? The question is how much would you invest in Jones? If he’s going to get a 2nd contract here go out and win.
I see Burrow & Herbert doing it with their teams. The Bengals OL stinks. The 2nd half schedule includes two games against Philly, WFT, Miami & Chicago. Let’s see Jones go out and ball.
Is that not reasonable?
I don't think it is, 3-7 is more likely for the Giants. Maybe they sneak out an extra 1-2 during the final month, as losing teams fade and prepare to go home.
Burrow & Herbert are two much stronger QB prospects, and with more talent around them, teams that are playing well enough to post good records so far.
And this is why I probably opt to reset at QB.
As for talent, didn’t the Giants just pay a ton in FA to win this year? Just awful roster construction.
Giants have been consistently poor under DG in both drafting and signing UFAs, as well as being well off-target in assessing how talented their roster actually is.
I'd certainly lean towards your approach, but doubt the Giants will ...
Picking up the 5th year option contains guaranteed money only in the event or injury. The Giants could always trade Jones if they wanted to as he has played much better than Darnold did prior to his trade.
IDK JonC, I think Sy has said he is doing well(better?) with his reads. I do not pretend to be able to tell if he is. But if Sy says he is, then he probably is.
But I agree with red zone production. Too bad he lost Golladay, Toney, Barkley and Shepard together(not to mention Thomas). Just too doggone hard to judge him with his bottom 4 WRs only on the field.
If all of the were released this week who gets picked up, Engram, Peart, Slayton, Booker and maybe Rudolph and Smith. Out of them who sees any playing time on a decent team? This supporting cast is having a direct effect on the QB, this is not the NBA where you figure Jones can still get his 20 on offense as he is one on one on O. Have at it, tell me how he is supposed to go and raise that group to some high level. Plus I also believe that Jones carried that Offense on his back on the 11 play 75 yard TD drive in the 3rd quarter
If he wins 5+ more games this year I’d consider extending him for the right price.
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but I remain in the trade him camp, unless he starts producing in the red zone and fixes some of the read progression issues.
IDK JonC, I think Sy has said he is doing well(better?) with his reads. I do not pretend to be able to tell if he is. But if Sy says he is, then he probably is.
But I agree with red zone production. Too bad he lost Golladay, Toney, Barkley and Shepard together(not to mention Thomas). Just too doggone hard to judge him with his bottom 4 WRs only on the field.
I think he's improving, but to my eye much of it is still on plays with 1-2 reads and then unload the pass. He's still missing some open receivers and not seeing the entire field, still staring down targets and not using enough eye manipulation to move defenders and create time/space. It looks to me like he's using outlet routes at times when a receiver is turned loose down the field and should be where the pass goes. It all adds up.
The red zone production is a bit eyesore he still needs to solve. Some of it is injuries to his receivers, some of it is Garrett being chicken, and some of it is Jones read and react is too slow in the tight spaces near the goal line.
We’d take .500 for starters
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will change the minds of the Jones hatters. He could lead the NFL in all QB categories or win an MVP, but if the Giants don't win a SB, the hatters will say lets trade him while his value is high.
We’d take .500 for starters
Possibly in the D plays a lot better and the injured guys on the skill positions come back as well as Thomas and Peart plays avg or better at RT then maybe their is a chance.
Why would anyone take you seriously?
We are facing a total rebuild with a new GM (DG will retire). There’s no reason to enter a rebuild with an average QB like Jones getting paid $30mm a year. It doesn’t make sense. You need to acquire another young QB and use their rookie contract.
Unless Jones starts playing at an all star level - which obviously changes the situation - dickering on the details of his play is almost irrelevant.
The defenders are asking the critics to extrapolate from outlier performances that Jones has turned some kind of corner.
Score points with consistency and the respect will follow.
Results before respect.
4 years $73M total.
$12M signing bonus and salaries of 10, 14, 17, 20.
Fully guarantee the salaries in years 1 and 2. Which makes $36M total guaranteed, $5-6M more than hes promised if we exercise. Potential below-market for the team in years 3 and 4, eat $6M if he needs to be cut after the 2 years.
The defenders are asking the critics to extrapolate from outlier performances that Jones has turned some kind of corner.
Score points with consistency and the respect will follow.
Results before respect.
That is only on Jones?
The defenders are asking the critics to extrapolate from outlier performances that Jones has turned some kind of corner.
Score points with consistency and the respect will follow.
Results before respect.
Exactly, we need to pretend he has done something he has never done.
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uptick in production, and Jones unveils special characteristics that franchise Qbs should have, the obvious answer is to find a trade partner. And I think we could...
That's what I'd do in that scenario too. Seems like it presents the least amount of risk and offers the most flexibility.
To me, Jones needs to show greatness for the rest of '21. If he's good - BFD. We can find a lot of solutions who can be good.
Does anybody on this board think Jones was drafted to be good? The object was for him to be great. Otherwise, it's a wasted lottery pick.
4 years $73M total.
$12M signing bonus and salaries of 10, 14, 17, 20.
Fully guarantee the salaries in years 1 and 2. Which makes $36M total guaranteed, $5-6M more than hes promised if we exercise. Potential below-market for the team in years 3 and 4, eat $6M if he needs to be cut after the 2 years.
That’s actually an interesting idea. Jones would have trade value with a contract like that.
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In comment 15430092 bw in dc said:
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uptick in production, and Jones unveils special characteristics that franchise Qbs should have, the obvious answer is to find a trade partner. And I think we could...
That's what I'd do in that scenario too. Seems like it presents the least amount of risk and offers the most flexibility.
To me, Jones needs to show greatness for the rest of '21. If he's good - BFD. We can find a lot of solutions who can be good.
Does anybody on this board think Jones was drafted to be good? The object was for him to be great. Otherwise, it's a wasted lottery pick.
What s wrong with Good, how many teams have good QBs? Who is great? BTWE the object of drafting every player in the 1st round is to be great, how often does that happen and why get rid of a good player to chase great when that rarely happens.
This is where I am too. A few more knowlegeable CFB BBIers have listed a couple draft pick QB's. But they seem a gamble and doubt we'd be in position to get them anyway. I see on here a few teams listed as potential trade partners for Jones because they are in need of a QB. Why would they want him if he's that bad? I keep reading he's nothing but a backup NFL QB. As far as trading how can we say trade him? I'd need to know who his replacement is. Cardinals knew before they traded Rosen. Eagles knew before they traded Wentz. Jets knew before they traded Darnold. So I can't say trade at this point. Especially where I want to see more games hopefully with injured players returning. So I guess if I had to absolutely had to say at this point what do I do, I pick up the option with still the ability to trade him if I've figured out his replacement. But I stand by too early I need to see more.
You have a strange idea of what good is. What would you consider, Simms, Collins and Eli?
1. Why shouldn't we be interested in more out of the quarterback than Jones is currently providing?
2. Paying $30M to Daniel Jones even for one year is insane for any team. It's doubly insane for a team on the verge of a total rebuild.
We are damaged as a fanbase. The standards are so low.
4 years $73M total.
$12M signing bonus and salaries of 10, 14, 17, 20.
Fully guarantee the salaries in years 1 and 2. Which makes $36M total guaranteed, $5-6M more than hes promised if we exercise. Potential below-market for the team in years 3 and 4, eat $6M if he needs to be cut after the 2 years.
Thats not a realistic contract for a starting QB in the NFL
1. Why shouldn't we be interested in more out of the quarterback than Jones is currently providing?
2. Paying $30M to Daniel Jones even for one year is insane for any team. It's doubly insane for a team on the verge of a total rebuild.
We are damaged as a fanbase. The standards are so low.
Than thank God they wouldn't have to pay him that until 2024 at the earliest.
Good can win. We've seen it happen, quite a bit actually.
So let’s play this out, where they decline the 5th year option.
A) Jones shows management everything they need to prove he’s the guy
B) Jones shows management everything they need to prove he’s not
C) More ambiguity because of injuries, upheavals, etc.
So then:
A) If he’s the guy I’d wager he’s extended on a multi year deal, and if they cannot come to terms, he can be franchised
B) If he proves he’s not, they go their separate ways at no cost
C) If things are unclear they have a choice
I think the ~8M delta between the franchise tender and the 5th year option is a great insurance policy.
I don’t think there’s a good reason to not leave your options open.
To me, Jones needs to show greatness for the rest of '21. If he's good - BFD. We can find a lot of solutions who can be good.
Does anybody on this board think Jones was drafted to be good? The object was for him to be great. Otherwise, it's a wasted lottery pick.
What s wrong with Good, how many teams have good QBs? Who is great? BTWE the object of drafting every player in the 1st round is to be great, how often does that happen and why get rid of a good player to chase great when that rarely happens.
Do you really want to hitch your wagon to good?
I would rather hitch my wagon to great - Herbert, LJax, Allen, etc - and believe that players of that caliber having a better chance of success than the "good" option.
There is a lot that has to go into for the good option to succeed. A lot of more investment in high quality players, especially on one side of the ball. That is a very hard ask even for the most skilled GM.
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Sean and cosmicj get to the essence:
1. Why shouldn't we be interested in more out of the quarterback than Jones is currently providing?
2. Paying $30M to Daniel Jones even for one year is insane for any team. It's doubly insane for a team on the verge of a total rebuild.
We are damaged as a fanbase. The standards are so low.
Than thank God they wouldn't have to pay him that until 2024 at the earliest.
I don't want to pay him that ever. And 2024 isn't far away.
Why are we waiting for this guy to prove it? I can't wrap my mind around that mentality. If you go back to April the discussion centered on Jones "getting" (I hate that term in this context) 2021 to prove himself. 2021 is shaping up into a disaster similar to 2020...and now Jones "gets" 2022 as well?
It should be on him to kick the fucking door down!
Good can win. We've seen it happen, quite a bit actually.
But Jones isn't good. You could have replaced him this year with any number of journeymen and we'd be exactly where we are: 2-5 and one of the worst offenses in the league.
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but the way you guys post its like whoever we draft will do just that for us and that's what I take issue with. Getting rid of Jones this year and drafting a QB just puts him in the same shitty scenario unless we hit on the other draft picks too. There's greater chance our next QB is bad than it is great.
Good can win. We've seen it happen, quite a bit actually.
But Jones isn't good. You could have replaced him this year with any number of journeymen and we'd be exactly where we are: 2-5 and one of the worst offenses in the league.
So, going forward, how do you improve one of the worst offenses in the league?
We are facing a total rebuild with a new GM (DG will retire). There’s no reason to enter a rebuild with an average QB like Jones getting paid $30mm a year. It doesn’t make sense. You need to acquire another young QB and use their rookie contract.
Unless Jones starts playing at an all star level - which obviously changes the situation - dickering on the details of his play is almost irrelevant.
I'm there you with you, but just don't see them pulling the trigger on Jones. Figure there will be half measures, as usual, rather than a clean slate and an outside GM hire. They're stumble trying to build around Jones for a couple more years, then figure it out. It's also why I think they stick with Judge.
It should be on him to kick the fucking door down!
This should be a surgical economics evaluation.
The maximum upside of getting rid of Jones is 4M, assuming you can find trade partner. 4M is sunk in bonus, so even cutting him only costs you 4M more.
The option doesn’t have to be executed until after the draft. I think the play is see how the draft progresses, if you find your guy — you can cut, trade, or keep Jones for no more than +/- 4M dollars.
You mean to tell me the principal managers of the organization aren’t making decisions by polling BBI? Stellar contribution dude.
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About where the Giants are as a team.
We are facing a total rebuild with a new GM (DG will retire). There’s no reason to enter a rebuild with an average QB like Jones getting paid $30mm a year. It doesn’t make sense. You need to acquire another young QB and use their rookie contract.
Unless Jones starts playing at an all star level - which obviously changes the situation - dickering on the details of his play is almost irrelevant.
I'm there you with you, but just don't see them pulling the trigger on Jones. Figure there will be half measures, as usual, rather than a clean slate and an outside GM hire. They're stumble trying to build around Jones for a couple more years, then figure it out. It's also why I think they stick with Judge.
Halloween is five days away, Jon - we don't need these nightmares yet.
2. Fire and replace whomever has been scouting quarterbacks
3. Replace Garrett with an OC whose system belongs in 2021
4. Scout the hell out of the 2022 QB class
5. Be open to drafting a QB in 2022, but don't force it. At this stage I don't consider Corral in the top 10 to be forcing it.
6. If the QB prospect is there in the draft, great. If not, sign a journeyman FA placeholder until the prospect and opportunity line up.
7. Invest more premium assets in the offensive line.
Jones is not to blame for everything. The scheme and the OL stink too. But that doesn't mean Jones's issues will just disappear with a better scheme and OL.
Jones is going to leave the Giants and settle into a nice career as an NFL backup. When that happens and how many losses he adds to his resume is up to the Giants.
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2021 is shaping up into a disaster similar to 2020...and now Jones "gets" 2022 as well?
It should be on him to kick the fucking door down!
This should be a surgical economics evaluation.
The maximum upside of getting rid of Jones is 4M, assuming you can find trade partner. 4M is sunk in bonus, so even cutting him only costs you 4M more.
The option doesn’t have to be executed until after the draft. I think the play is see how the draft progresses, if you find your guy — you can cut, trade, or keep Jones for no more than +/- 4M dollars.
What about the value of getting a pick for him in trade? I know he's supposed to count about $8M against the cap next year - I don't know how much of that would still count if he were traded.
2x vs Philly
WFT
Chicago
Miami
Go win some games. Otherwise, I’m resetting at QB. That is my point. Again, is that not reasonable? Burrow doesn’t have excuses and he’s winning. Raise the standards here.
Burrow has the 5th best scoring allow defense. He has a much better line, he has an insane rookie who is on pace for 85 catches, 1800+ yards, and 14+ TDs, Tee Higgins, Tyler Boyd, Uzomah who has been a beast this year, and a good RB in Joe Mixon. They have all been healthy ever game except for Mixon missing one game I think. You don't think Daniel Jones is lighting things up and winning on that team? In fact if we just had there defense this year we are probably 4-3 in not 5-2. Our defense is ranked 22nd in points giving up more than a TD a game.
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That’s the reality of the salary cap.
You have a strange idea of what good is. What would you consider, Simms, Collins and Eli?
Simms - pre-cap and no free agency
Collins - cheap reclamation project with an elite arm
Eli - elite ceiling with a SB win before the end of his rookie deal
Let’s just raise the standards. Let’s see what Jones does the rest of the way.
No, the best thing about this thread is you got your 2 cents in with this post and that's about all it was worth...
The defenders are asking the critics to extrapolate from outlier performances that Jones has turned some kind of corner.
Score points with consistency and the respect will follow.
Results before respect.
Amen!
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To me, Jones needs to show greatness for the rest of '21. If he's good - BFD. We can find a lot of solutions who can be good.
Does anybody on this board think Jones was drafted to be good? The object was for him to be great. Otherwise, it's a wasted lottery pick.
What s wrong with Good, how many teams have good QBs? Who is great? BTWE the object of drafting every player in the 1st round is to be great, how often does that happen and why get rid of a good player to chase great when that rarely happens.
Do you really want to hitch your wagon to good?
I would rather hitch my wagon to great - Herbert, LJax, Allen, etc - and believe that players of that caliber having a better chance of success than the "good" option.
There is a lot that has to go into for the good option to succeed. A lot of more investment in high quality players, especially on one side of the ball. That is a very hard ask even for the most skilled GM.
It is not possible to be great at every position, Some positions you just have to be good at and move along(I'm not even talking about Jones per se, just any position)Why chase fools gold and keep recycling a team for great when it is a pipe dream, it just doesn't work. Also Hebert is not a great QB by any means, he is aa young QB that has shown some flashes but also has some warts, but you sure as hell cannot consider him great
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In comment 15430391 Walker Gillette said:
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To me, Jones needs to show greatness for the rest of '21. If he's good - BFD. We can find a lot of solutions who can be good.
Does anybody on this board think Jones was drafted to be good? The object was for him to be great. Otherwise, it's a wasted lottery pick.
What s wrong with Good, how many teams have good QBs? Who is great? BTWE the object of drafting every player in the 1st round is to be great, how often does that happen and why get rid of a good player to chase great when that rarely happens.
Do you really want to hitch your wagon to good?
I would rather hitch my wagon to great - Herbert, LJax, Allen, etc - and believe that players of that caliber having a better chance of success than the "good" option.
There is a lot that has to go into for the good option to succeed. A lot of more investment in high quality players, especially on one side of the ball. That is a very hard ask even for the most skilled GM.
It is not possible to be great at every position, Some positions you just have to be good at and move along(I'm not even talking about Jones per se, just any position)Why chase fools gold and keep recycling a team for great when it is a pipe dream, it just doesn't work. Also Hebert is not a great QB by any means, he is aa young QB that has shown some flashes but also has some warts, but you sure as hell cannot consider him great
Only shown flashes? Herbert is in his way to being great. Had 4300-31-10 as a rookie. Over his last 4 games he’s averaging 279 yards, 3 tds and .3 INT. He’s in pace for 4700, 37 and 11 this year on a potential AFC contender.
If he’s only shown flashes then just dump Jones now cause he’s shown nothing.
Good can win. We've seen it happen, quite a bit actually.
I agree it's a challenge. But these QBs are more precocious than ever with the enormous change in style - spread offenses - of play at the high school and college levels. So the ability to find solutions are much faster. Which makes me optimistic that we could move on from Jones - in theory - if we had that one key piece - a better GM! ;)
Only shown flashes? Herbert is in his way to being great. Had 4300-31-10 as a rookie. Over his last 4 games he’s averaging 279 yards, 3 tds and .3 INT. He’s in pace for 4700, 37 and 11 this year on a potential AFC contender.
If he’s only shown flashes then just dump Jones now cause he’s shown nothing.
It's amazing that Daniel Jones can play one average game and one above average game and people around here can't wait to tell you he's going to be an elite QB, but all Justin Herbert has done in 21 career starts is throw 45 TDs, run for another 6, while turning the ball over only 16 times and people find any reason to shit on him.
Justin Herbert is better than Jones in virtually every single way. His arm is better. His delivery is faster. His processing and anticipation is better.
He was better in high school. Better in college. And now better in the NFL, and it's insane to argue otherwise.
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In comment 15430393 cosmicj said:
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That’s the reality of the salary cap.
You have a strange idea of what good is. What would you consider, Simms, Collins and Eli?
Simms - pre-cap and no free agency
Collins - cheap reclamation project with an elite arm
Eli - elite ceiling with a SB win before the end of his rookie deal
Are they good/Great, etc. Cause I loved Simms and Eli and I do not think either was great.
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Only shown flashes? Herbert is in his way to being great. Had 4300-31-10 as a rookie. Over his last 4 games he’s averaging 279 yards, 3 tds and .3 INT. He’s in pace for 4700, 37 and 11 this year on a potential AFC contender.
If he’s only shown flashes then just dump Jones now cause he’s shown nothing.
It's amazing that Daniel Jones can play one average game and one above average game and people around here can't wait to tell you he's going to be an elite QB, but all Justin Herbert has done in 21 career starts is throw 45 TDs, run for another 6, while turning the ball over only 16 times and people find any reason to shit on him.
Justin Herbert is better than Jones in virtually every single way. His arm is better. His delivery is faster. His processing and anticipation is better.
He was better in high school. Better in college. And now better in the NFL, and it's insane to argue otherwise.
It’s insane. I’m fine if people think Jones can be the guy but comments like Herbert only showing flashes while they’re also saying Jones carried the team Sunday and is a bonafide franchise QB and anyone who thinks otherwise should root for another makes it unbearable.
Herbert in two years is going to double Jones’ TD output from Jones first two, and probably triple it over the last two years. Yea his weapons are way better, but so is Herbert. Jones has light years to catch up to Herbert.
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Only shown flashes? Herbert is in his way to being great. Had 4300-31-10 as a rookie. Over his last 4 games he’s averaging 279 yards, 3 tds and .3 INT. He’s in pace for 4700, 37 and 11 this year on a potential AFC contender.
If he’s only shown flashes then just dump Jones now cause he’s shown nothing.
It's amazing that Daniel Jones can play one average game and one above average game and people around here can't wait to tell you he's going to be an elite QB, but all Justin Herbert has done in 21 career starts is throw 45 TDs, run for another 6, while turning the ball over only 16 times and people find any reason to shit on him.
Justin Herbert is better than Jones in virtually every single way. His arm is better. His delivery is faster. His processing and anticipation is better.
He was better in high school. Better in college. And now better in the NFL, and it's insane to argue otherwise.
So it's shitting on him to say he's not great, what are you his Mom? Great is Aaron Rodgers or Brady. I know he's a qb on another team so many Giant fans worship him, but lets give great a break for a moment.
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In comment 15430519 ajr2456 said:
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Only shown flashes? Herbert is in his way to being great. Had 4300-31-10 as a rookie. Over his last 4 games he’s averaging 279 yards, 3 tds and .3 INT. He’s in pace for 4700, 37 and 11 this year on a potential AFC contender.
If he’s only shown flashes then just dump Jones now cause he’s shown nothing.
It's amazing that Daniel Jones can play one average game and one above average game and people around here can't wait to tell you he's going to be an elite QB, but all Justin Herbert has done in 21 career starts is throw 45 TDs, run for another 6, while turning the ball over only 16 times and people find any reason to shit on him.
Justin Herbert is better than Jones in virtually every single way. His arm is better. His delivery is faster. His processing and anticipation is better.
He was better in high school. Better in college. And now better in the NFL, and it's insane to argue otherwise.
So it's shitting on him to say he's not great, what are you his Mom? Great is Aaron Rodgers or Brady. I know he's a qb on another team so many Giant fans worship him, but lets give great a break for a moment.
And who brought Jones into this, we were talking about good as an option for a position. You're so hyped up to shit on Jones you just can't resist can you.
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In comment 15430519 ajr2456 said:
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Only shown flashes? Herbert is in his way to being great. Had 4300-31-10 as a rookie. Over his last 4 games he’s averaging 279 yards, 3 tds and .3 INT. He’s in pace for 4700, 37 and 11 this year on a potential AFC contender.
If he’s only shown flashes then just dump Jones now cause he’s shown nothing.
It's amazing that Daniel Jones can play one average game and one above average game and people around here can't wait to tell you he's going to be an elite QB, but all Justin Herbert has done in 21 career starts is throw 45 TDs, run for another 6, while turning the ball over only 16 times and people find any reason to shit on him.
Justin Herbert is better than Jones in virtually every single way. His arm is better. His delivery is faster. His processing and anticipation is better.
He was better in high school. Better in college. And now better in the NFL, and it's insane to argue otherwise.
So it's shitting on him to say he's not great, what are you his Mom? Great is Aaron Rodgers or Brady. I know he's a qb on another team so many Giant fans worship him, but lets give great a break for a moment.
You said he’s only shown flashes which is a lie. What he is that Jones isn’t is consistent. There’s a better chance that Herbert turns into a great QB than Jones, partially because he’s almost there in year 2. Jones is still trying to be good for 50% of the year.
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Only shown flashes? Herbert is in his way to being great. Had 4300-31-10 as a rookie. Over his last 4 games he’s averaging 279 yards, 3 tds and .3 INT. He’s in pace for 4700, 37 and 11 this year on a potential AFC contender.
If he’s only shown flashes then just dump Jones now cause he’s shown nothing.
It's amazing that Daniel Jones can play one average game and one above average game and people around here can't wait to tell you he's going to be an elite QB, but all Justin Herbert has done in 21 career starts is throw 45 TDs, run for another 6, while turning the ball over only 16 times and people find any reason to shit on him.
Justin Herbert is better than Jones in virtually every single way. His arm is better. His delivery is faster. His processing and anticipation is better.
He was better in high school. Better in college. And now better in the NFL, and it's insane to argue otherwise.
It is because you people want to compare DJ to everyone and Herbert is one of the favorites. People say things like in virtually every single way... Ummm running the ball Jones is better. I mean the fact is Herbert wouldn't have as good of stats he has had on the Chargers if he was on the Giants roster during the same time. Just like Daniel Jones would be better on the same the same roster as Herbert.
In saying that, Herbert is amazing... No one is saying he isn't good. In fact I will say he is amazing going towards Elite. Daniel Jones isn't some bum though because Herbert is so good. Jones just came off of a rookie season with 24 passing TDs and what 4 rushing TDs in 14 games. He has had crap or unhealthy weapons his whole career while Herbert has studs. Herbert was never going to be drafted by us.
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In comment 15430542 rsjem1979 said:
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In comment 15430519 ajr2456 said:
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Only shown flashes? Herbert is in his way to being great. Had 4300-31-10 as a rookie. Over his last 4 games he’s averaging 279 yards, 3 tds and .3 INT. He’s in pace for 4700, 37 and 11 this year on a potential AFC contender.
If he’s only shown flashes then just dump Jones now cause he’s shown nothing.
It's amazing that Daniel Jones can play one average game and one above average game and people around here can't wait to tell you he's going to be an elite QB, but all Justin Herbert has done in 21 career starts is throw 45 TDs, run for another 6, while turning the ball over only 16 times and people find any reason to shit on him.
Justin Herbert is better than Jones in virtually every single way. His arm is better. His delivery is faster. His processing and anticipation is better.
He was better in high school. Better in college. And now better in the NFL, and it's insane to argue otherwise.
So it's shitting on him to say he's not great, what are you his Mom? Great is Aaron Rodgers or Brady. I know he's a qb on another team so many Giant fans worship him, but lets give great a break for a moment.
You said he’s only shown flashes which is a lie. What he is that Jones isn’t is consistent. There’s a better chance that Herbert turns into a great QB than Jones, partially because he’s almost there in year 2. Jones is still trying to be good for 50% of the year.
Here comes another member of the Hebert family having an aneurism. What is with you guys really/
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In comment 15430570 Walker Gillette said:
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In comment 15430542 rsjem1979 said:
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In comment 15430519 ajr2456 said:
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Only shown flashes? Herbert is in his way to being great. Had 4300-31-10 as a rookie. Over his last 4 games he’s averaging 279 yards, 3 tds and .3 INT. He’s in pace for 4700, 37 and 11 this year on a potential AFC contender.
If he’s only shown flashes then just dump Jones now cause he’s shown nothing.
It's amazing that Daniel Jones can play one average game and one above average game and people around here can't wait to tell you he's going to be an elite QB, but all Justin Herbert has done in 21 career starts is throw 45 TDs, run for another 6, while turning the ball over only 16 times and people find any reason to shit on him.
Justin Herbert is better than Jones in virtually every single way. His arm is better. His delivery is faster. His processing and anticipation is better.
He was better in high school. Better in college. And now better in the NFL, and it's insane to argue otherwise.
So it's shitting on him to say he's not great, what are you his Mom? Great is Aaron Rodgers or Brady. I know he's a qb on another team so many Giant fans worship him, but lets give great a break for a moment.
You said he’s only shown flashes which is a lie. What he is that Jones isn’t is consistent. There’s a better chance that Herbert turns into a great QB than Jones, partially because he’s almost there in year 2. Jones is still trying to be good for 50% of the year.
Here comes another member of the Hebert family having an aneurism. What is with you guys really/
Is this your only comeback because you know you’re wrong?
2. Fire and replace whomever has been scouting quarterbacks
3. Replace Garrett with an OC whose system belongs in 2021
4. Scout the hell out of the 2022 QB class
5. Be open to drafting a QB in 2022, but don't force it. At this stage I don't consider Corral in the top 10 to be forcing it.
6. If the QB prospect is there in the draft, great. If not, sign a journeyman FA placeholder until the prospect and opportunity line up.
7. Invest more premium assets in the offensive line.
Jones is not to blame for everything. The scheme and the OL stink too. But that doesn't mean Jones's issues will just disappear with a better scheme and OL.
Jones is going to leave the Giants and settle into a nice career as an NFL backup. When that happens and how many losses he adds to his resume is up to the Giants.
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In comment 15430577 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15430570 Walker Gillette said:
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In comment 15430542 rsjem1979 said:
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In comment 15430519 ajr2456 said:
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Only shown flashes? Herbert is in his way to being great. Had 4300-31-10 as a rookie. Over his last 4 games he’s averaging 279 yards, 3 tds and .3 INT. He’s in pace for 4700, 37 and 11 this year on a potential AFC contender.
If he’s only shown flashes then just dump Jones now cause he’s shown nothing.
It's amazing that Daniel Jones can play one average game and one above average game and people around here can't wait to tell you he's going to be an elite QB, but all Justin Herbert has done in 21 career starts is throw 45 TDs, run for another 6, while turning the ball over only 16 times and people find any reason to shit on him.
Justin Herbert is better than Jones in virtually every single way. His arm is better. His delivery is faster. His processing and anticipation is better.
He was better in high school. Better in college. And now better in the NFL, and it's insane to argue otherwise.
So it's shitting on him to say he's not great, what are you his Mom? Great is Aaron Rodgers or Brady. I know he's a qb on another team so many Giant fans worship him, but lets give great a break for a moment.
You said he’s only shown flashes which is a lie. What he is that Jones isn’t is consistent. There’s a better chance that Herbert turns into a great QB than Jones, partially because he’s almost there in year 2. Jones is still trying to be good for 50% of the year.
Here comes another member of the Hebert family having an aneurism. What is with you guys really/
Is this your only comeback because you know you’re wrong?
Wrong about what? That Hebert is great. Fine put him up there with Fouts, Young, Unitas, Brady, etc. He's great. This sis the problem, everyone rushing to say this guy sucks and this guy is friggin great. Hebert looks good and has shown some real flashes but I'm not ready to go by a jersey and jump the fuck all over people who won't say he's great. How the hell do you know he's great already. IF he retires tomorrow is he going into the lexicon of NFL great QBs, I think maybe you are wrong.
If he plays well in year 4 you sign him to an extension and everyone is happy. If he is still inconsistent from game to game you can try to trade him at the deadline or simply let him walk.
The bottom line is that you can't draw out the decision if you are in year 4 and still don't know what you have. At that point you don't have your franchise QB.
Jones doesn’t even have 21 good games in two and a half years, but your sold on him and it’s all the other players fault.
Herbert is not going to require a quantum leap in year 3 like Josh Allen. He is almost there in year 2.
Jones doesn’t even have 21 good games in two and a half years, but your sold on him and it’s all the other players fault.
I never even brought up Jones in this context, it was a discussion about working with Good players at a position. I'm really sorry I upset you so much I didn't think on a Giants site I would come up with someone so emotionally invested in the QB of the Chargers. And you know what I'm not 100% sold on Jones but I do like a lot of what I see and He's doing it with absolute garbage around him a lot of the time this year, but I guess you think Cullin Johnson, Solder, Price, Ross, etc are just fine.
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That’s just a flat out lie. He has 21 starts of very good football in one and half years.
Jones doesn’t even have 21 good games in two and a half years, but your sold on him and it’s all the other players fault.
I never even brought up Jones in this context, it was a discussion about working with Good players at a position. I'm really sorry I upset you so much I didn't think on a Giants site I would come up with someone so emotionally invested in the QB of the Chargers. And you know what I'm not 100% sold on Jones but I do like a lot of what I see and He's doing it with absolute garbage around him a lot of the time this year, but I guess you
think Cullin Johnson, Solder, Price, Ross, etc are just fine.
Your comment was in response to we shouldn’t hitch are wagon to Jones when there’s teams hitching their wagons to QBs like Herbert. Jones was relevant to your post as much as you try to back track.
I’m not emotionally invested in Herbert, just don’t fabricate another QBs play to try to make a point.
I'm with Sean. Turn it around and make the playoffs. That was my expectation coming into this season (which Jones shouldn't have gotten), and it remains my expectation.
Win 10 games. Make the playoffs. Score some God damned points.
Of course that's not going to happen. When they get to 2-7 or 3-8 or whatever, season's over as far as I'm concerned. What happens after that is irrelevant. We've seen that meaningless wins over week and injured opponents don't carry any momentum into the next season. It won't matter if Jones throws for 500 yards and 6 TDs against Washington week 17. Irrelevant.
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In comment 15430607 ajr2456 said:
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That’s just a flat out lie. He has 21 starts of very good football in one and half years.
Jones doesn’t even have 21 good games in two and a half years, but your sold on him and it’s all the other players fault.
I never even brought up Jones in this context, it was a discussion about working with Good players at a position. I'm really sorry I upset you so much I didn't think on a Giants site I would come up with someone so emotionally invested in the QB of the Chargers. And you know what I'm not 100% sold on Jones but I do like a lot of what I see and He's doing it with absolute garbage around him a lot of the time this year, but I guess you
think Cullin Johnson, Solder, Price, Ross, etc are just fine.
Your comment was in response to we shouldn’t hitch are wagon to Jones when there’s teams hitching their wagons to QBs like Herbert. Jones was relevant to your post as much as you try to back track.
I’m not emotionally invested in Herbert, just don’t fabricate another QBs play to try to make a point.
Fabricate because I said he was not a "GREAT" QB, wow and you're not emotionally invested. Well I've learned my lesson
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In comment 15430624 Walker Gillette said:
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In comment 15430607 ajr2456 said:
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That’s just a flat out lie. He has 21 starts of very good football in one and half years.
Jones doesn’t even have 21 good games in two and a half years, but your sold on him and it’s all the other players fault.
I never even brought up Jones in this context, it was a discussion about working with Good players at a position. I'm really sorry I upset you so much I didn't think on a Giants site I would come up with someone so emotionally invested in the QB of the Chargers. And you know what I'm not 100% sold on Jones but I do like a lot of what I see and He's doing it with absolute garbage around him a lot of the time this year, but I guess you
think Cullin Johnson, Solder, Price, Ross, etc are just fine.
Your comment was in response to we shouldn’t hitch are wagon to Jones when there’s teams hitching their wagons to QBs like Herbert. Jones was relevant to your post as much as you try to back track.
I’m not emotionally invested in Herbert, just don’t fabricate another QBs play to try to make a point.
Fabricate because I said he was not a "GREAT" QB, wow and you're not emotionally invested. Well I've learned my lesson
No you said he’s only shown flashes.
I'm with Sean. Turn it around and make the playoffs. That was my expectation coming into this season (which Jones shouldn't have gotten), and it remains my expectation.
Win 10 games. Make the playoffs. Score some God damned points.
Of course that's not going to happen. When they get to 2-7 or 3-8 or whatever, season's over as far as I'm concerned. What happens after that is irrelevant. We've seen that meaningless wins over week and injured opponents don't carry any momentum into the next season. It won't matter if Jones throws for 500 yards and 6 TDs against Washington week 17. Irrelevant.
We have a cult of people here who are emotionally invested in the Daniel Jones saga above all else, above even the fortunes of the New York Giants. At this stage I think it is fair to say they would prefer to lose with Jones than win without him.
This group cannot look at an objective set of stats, normal stats that are not exotic, with which we have judged QBs for decades, which have reliably shown us who the best QBs are, without completely losing their shit.
They think a game in which the Giants scored just 5 points with minutes to go in the third Q, in which Jones didn't throw the ball more than 20 yards more than two times, is some enormous vindication. They are beyond the reach of rationality. They have an emotional attachment to Jones that goes beyond normal player/fan attachments. They identify with him like he is family, and they want to try to win with him, even if he is a subpar player. It doesn't matter if we waste years with this guy. These are the repercussions of Gettleman having a funny feeling about a player and boning the pick. he'll wander off into retirement and the fans will be fighting it out for a decade.
That might...uh...be an understatement.
Were the bengals much better than the Giants when he was drafted? Everybody said his line was shit when they drafted Chase over Sewell. How soon we forget.
A great QB can turn things around faster than we are seeing with this QB and this team.
I'll leave it to the Giants to figure out what to invest. It's their money.
I know no moral victories but are we having this conversation if Slayton makes that catch and Dex just sits down?
I know no moral victories but are we having this conversation if Slayton makes that catch and Dex just sits down?
Yes, because narrowly beating garbage teams while failing to field a productive offense doesn't move the needle if your goal is to build a great Super Bowl champion. It's like winning the NFC East last season. It is a hollow, almost pyrrhic victory.
And we’re backing to the same excuses as last year. “Injuries”. “The offensive line is terrible”. “It’s Garrett’s fault”. All could be true, but he still hasn’t shown enough.
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that's WITH all the injuries.
I know no moral victories but are we having this conversation if Slayton makes that catch and Dex just sits down?
Yes, because narrowly beating garbage teams while failing to field a productive offense doesn't move the needle if your goal is to build a great Super Bowl champion. It's like winning the NFC East last season. It is a hollow, almost pyrrhic victory.
Dude...my word....wtf.
Good teams don't win ugly? Are you high? 2007 ring a bell? What about last year's Bucs team barely getting by a bad NYG team. What about the 86 Giants? the most dominant NFL team in NY history won ugly all year long until January save for 1-2 games.
Jones is playing well just let it go already. Or, keep doubling down and die on this same hill day after day. You're so invested now I guess you can't turn back? Is that it?
DEVELOPMENT. Not always linear. Rarely predictable. Just fucking relax and watch the guy play. You don't need to make a decision now and no one is building a monument in your honor if you're proven to be correct day.
I know no moral victories but are we having this conversation if Slayton makes that catch and Dex just sits down?
We'd still be 24th in the league in points scored, so yes we are still having this conversation. 19th in yards per game.
That's not good enough.
I know no moral victories but are we having this conversation if Slayton makes that catch and Dex just sits down?
Also a Saints fumble from being 1-6.
If TD production improves when some playmakers get back on field, then I would be okay with either #1 or #2 and absorbing the $4M penalty.
Otherwise if they finish 7-9 or below trade him in the offseason.
Anything better give him another year.
Otherwise if they finish 7-9 or below trade him in the offseason.
Anything better give him another year.
If the Giants don't win this week then Jones should be traded immediately?
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that's WITH all the injuries.
I know no moral victories but are we having this conversation if Slayton makes that catch and Dex just sits down?
Also a Saints fumble from being 1-6.
It’s amazing how this fan base uses the same excuses and what if’s year to year. There’s not even any creativity.
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if they don't win this week I say trade him.
Otherwise if they finish 7-9 or below trade him in the offseason.
Anything better give him another year.
If the Giants don't win this week then Jones should be traded immediately?
Yes immediate trade. It's not even about him per se, it's about something the Giants don't understand very well. You have to line up your window. You have to have a team building strategy. We didn't do that, we don't have one. And having Jones an actual asset languish more in this failed structure isn't helping anyone but the Mara family feel like maybe they aren't as shitty as they actually are.
Maximize your picks, ensure you have a good foundation before you start spending money on FA and trading draft picks for players. It's always the same thing "we could have had 4 more wins!!" "A few plays away from 4-3"
We suck. This foundation sucks. We need a new foundation and we need as many people who assembled this one as possible dismissed.
I'd take 1 of 2 of those things in a heartbeat though
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In comment 15430743 Jim in Forest Hills said:
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that's WITH all the injuries.
I know no moral victories but are we having this conversation if Slayton makes that catch and Dex just sits down?
Also a Saints fumble from being 1-6.
It’s amazing how this fan base uses the same excuses and what if’s year to year. There’s not even any creativity.
The funniest part is the Mara's hire JJ Mr. no excuses we are all on this submarine blah blah. And then you have his BOSSES making excuses for him.
It's like I ordered Ice Cream and the guy is bragging about his Ice Cream scooper system and then he drops my Ice Cream on the floor and the manager comes out to assure me it isn't the scooper system. I feel the exact same way about JJ as I do that person scooping my Ice Cream. I don't give a shit about how you do it until I see you do it right.
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In comment 15431317 NoGainDayne said:
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if they don't win this week I say trade him.
Otherwise if they finish 7-9 or below trade him in the offseason.
Anything better give him another year.
If the Giants don't win this week then Jones should be traded immediately?
Yes immediate trade. It's not even about him per se, it's about something the Giants don't understand very well. You have to line up your window. You have to have a team building strategy. We didn't do that, we don't have one. And having Jones an actual asset languish more in this failed structure isn't helping anyone but the Mara family feel like maybe they aren't as shitty as they actually are.
Maximize your picks, ensure you have a good foundation before you start spending money on FA and trading draft picks for players. It's always the same thing "we could have had 4 more wins!!" "A few plays away from 4-3"
We suck. This foundation sucks. We need a new foundation and we need as many people who assembled this one as possible dismissed.
I'd take 1 of 2 of those things in a heartbeat though
Really don't argue with all these points about improving the structure and foundation of the Franchise, but you don't trade Jones if it isn't about him per se.
Jones may not be the future, but he can start and is on a guaranteed cheap contract. If he can return a high pick or there is an upgrade that makes the grade to draft in 2022, then dealing Jones should be considered. If not, keep him in place for another year and use the picks elsewhere to improve the roster.
Really don't argue with all these points about improving the structure and foundation of the Franchise, but you don't trade Jones if it isn't about him per se.
Jones may not be the future, but he can start and is on a guaranteed cheap contract. If he can return a high pick or there is an upgrade that makes the grade to draft in 2022, then dealing Jones should be considered. If not, keep him in place for another year and use the picks elsewhere to improve the roster.
But see here is the thing. I come from a stock background and teams like the Pats have been "trading" for years.
Jones is an asset this year but next year on that option contract his asset value is much less. Trading him ASAP you are getting back more value.
And that's the thing we fuck up time and time again. If we are 2-6 the best thing we can do is bottom out. Get as many draft picks as possible. Year after year we hear about these great ends and moral victories but they don't ever do anything because we refuse to accept that we have a flawed foundation.
That's what you and they fail to understand. We have to trade our assets that have value if we ever want to actually rebuild our foundation. Of course Jones could increase our win total above replacement in theory, 1 maybe 2 wins over a full season. (although that is unproven someone will pay for that value and we need it more than a team that could be 7-8 wins without him)
As a team that is a 4-6 win team at best we need to rebuild not try to squeeze out the max wins of a crappy core. That has gotten us literally no where.
But see here is the thing. I come from a stock background and teams like the Pats have been "trading" for years.
Jones is an asset this year but next year on that option contract his asset value is much less. Trading him ASAP you are getting back more value.
And that's the thing we fuck up time and time again. If we are 2-6 the best thing we can do is bottom out. Get as many draft picks as possible. Year after year we hear about these great ends and moral victories but they don't ever do anything because we refuse to accept that we have a flawed foundation.
Too many people (including people in the Giants front office) think that this is still the 1980s where you can build and build and build and eventually get good with a lot of the players you started with. You don't get to hold on to a QB for 7 years without paying for him.
With the the current CBA and salary cap, roster turnover happens quickly even for franchises that draft well and manage their finances logically. Anyone you draft now that develops into a good/great player will be getting paid in 3-5 years. That means you either have to have the money allocated for them, or have a reasonable replacement option.
The Giants don't even have the framework of a plan in place. They are deficient in a number of areas, and over the next few years have a lot of money committed to very few players.
Trading down last year was a good start, but they are not a year or two away from being contenders and it's going to take draft picks and undervalued free agents to get things turned around.
Others have said it, the best time to trade Jones would have been after his rookie year. The second best time to trade him is right now.
If the differential is a 2nd now versus a 6th/7th later than maybe. If it actually drops to a 6th then there may not be a market for him anyway as a starter.
Only guessing above by the way.
And like that's the point. What is the real best case scenario for Jones? Are we going to be able to put a good team around him anytime soon?
That's the problem really. He could put us on his back next year and get us to 8 wins but that's not really what we want.
The Giants don't actually understand team construction. So this is moot. I fully expect Barkley and Jones to get new contracts and our ceiling the next 5+ years to be a first round playoff exit.
And like that's the point. What is the real best case scenario for Jones? Are we going to be able to put a good team around him anytime soon?
That's the problem really. He could put us on his back next year and get us to 8 wins but that's not really what we want.
The Giants don't actually understand team construction. So this is moot. I fully expect Barkley and Jones to get new contracts and our ceiling the next 5+ years to be a first round playoff exit.
Two 2nd rounders is a lot. If both happen to be in the same draft year (rare) then I would pull that trigger.
But I think it is moot as a couple of more pretty decent games and the Giants are going to stick with him, right or wrong.
And like that's the point. What is the real best case scenario for Jones? Are we going to be able to put a good team around him anytime soon?
That's the problem really. He could put us on his back next year and get us to 8 wins but that's not really what we want.
The Giants don't actually understand team construction. So this is moot. I fully expect Barkley and Jones to get new contracts and our ceiling the next 5+ years to be a first round playoff exit.
This is a great point. When Eli was drafted, the roster wasn't actually that bad - we were only two years removed from being the hot team going into the playoffs. But the OL was in shambles, and Collins got hurt, and the 2003 season went in the toilet. But we weren't facing a full rebuild.
This front office has not actually ever successfully dealt with a full rebuild. And with recent history as our guide, it's becoming clear that they don't have much idea about how to do it now.
I'll stipulate my answer by saying if the Giants finish out with 7+ wins and Jones runs and passes for 20+ TD's I think they will pick up his 5th year option. I like the athleticism and heart he brings to the position. It will be interesting to see him if we can get Thomas, Barkley and a few of our starting WR's back on the field.
Although I would expect that an uptick in production would be dismissed out of hand..."The players around him make Jones better and a rookie could do the same thing"