I know there are a number of folks who don't enjoy debating the economics, in the spirit of a productive convo if you fall in that group maybe politely not chime in? Thanks
This offseason Jones will be eligible for:
1) a contract extension
2) a fully guaranteed 5th year option for 2023 at $21.3M
Going into his 4th year Jones will cost the Giants ~8.3M against the 2022 cap, roughly half of that figure is the amortized potion of his signing bonus ($4.1M)
The balance of his cap charge is a fully guaranteed salary and fully guaranteed roster bonus, meaning if he's cut that will accelerate, and if he was traded it would be his new team's responsibility.
So this offseason the Giants can:
1) Exercise his 5th year option, retain his rights and his 2023 salary will be $21.3M fully guaranteed
2) Decline his 5th year option, but still have the rights to franchise tag him for 2023 at somewhere north of $25M
3) Decline his option and let him walk after the 2022 season
4) Extend Jones on a multi-year deal
5) Trade Jones and save ~4M
So two simple questions:
If Jones does blank by the end of the year -- I want the the Giants to pick one of the five options.
We are facing a total rebuild with a new GM (DG will retire). There’s no reason to enter a rebuild with an average QB like Jones getting paid $30mm a year. It doesn’t make sense. You need to acquire another young QB and use their rookie contract.
Unless Jones starts playing at an all star level - which obviously changes the situation - dickering on the details of his play is almost irrelevant.
The defenders are asking the critics to extrapolate from outlier performances that Jones has turned some kind of corner.
Score points with consistency and the respect will follow.
Results before respect.
4 years $73M total.
$12M signing bonus and salaries of 10, 14, 17, 20.
Fully guarantee the salaries in years 1 and 2. Which makes $36M total guaranteed, $5-6M more than hes promised if we exercise. Potential below-market for the team in years 3 and 4, eat $6M if he needs to be cut after the 2 years.
The defenders are asking the critics to extrapolate from outlier performances that Jones has turned some kind of corner.
Score points with consistency and the respect will follow.
Results before respect.
That is only on Jones?
The defenders are asking the critics to extrapolate from outlier performances that Jones has turned some kind of corner.
Score points with consistency and the respect will follow.
Results before respect.
Exactly, we need to pretend he has done something he has never done.
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uptick in production, and Jones unveils special characteristics that franchise Qbs should have, the obvious answer is to find a trade partner. And I think we could...
That's what I'd do in that scenario too. Seems like it presents the least amount of risk and offers the most flexibility.
To me, Jones needs to show greatness for the rest of '21. If he's good - BFD. We can find a lot of solutions who can be good.
Does anybody on this board think Jones was drafted to be good? The object was for him to be great. Otherwise, it's a wasted lottery pick.
4 years $73M total.
$12M signing bonus and salaries of 10, 14, 17, 20.
Fully guarantee the salaries in years 1 and 2. Which makes $36M total guaranteed, $5-6M more than hes promised if we exercise. Potential below-market for the team in years 3 and 4, eat $6M if he needs to be cut after the 2 years.
That’s actually an interesting idea. Jones would have trade value with a contract like that.
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In comment 15430092 bw in dc said:
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uptick in production, and Jones unveils special characteristics that franchise Qbs should have, the obvious answer is to find a trade partner. And I think we could...
That's what I'd do in that scenario too. Seems like it presents the least amount of risk and offers the most flexibility.
To me, Jones needs to show greatness for the rest of '21. If he's good - BFD. We can find a lot of solutions who can be good.
Does anybody on this board think Jones was drafted to be good? The object was for him to be great. Otherwise, it's a wasted lottery pick.
What s wrong with Good, how many teams have good QBs? Who is great? BTWE the object of drafting every player in the 1st round is to be great, how often does that happen and why get rid of a good player to chase great when that rarely happens.
This is where I am too. A few more knowlegeable CFB BBIers have listed a couple draft pick QB's. But they seem a gamble and doubt we'd be in position to get them anyway. I see on here a few teams listed as potential trade partners for Jones because they are in need of a QB. Why would they want him if he's that bad? I keep reading he's nothing but a backup NFL QB. As far as trading how can we say trade him? I'd need to know who his replacement is. Cardinals knew before they traded Rosen. Eagles knew before they traded Wentz. Jets knew before they traded Darnold. So I can't say trade at this point. Especially where I want to see more games hopefully with injured players returning. So I guess if I had to absolutely had to say at this point what do I do, I pick up the option with still the ability to trade him if I've figured out his replacement. But I stand by too early I need to see more.
You have a strange idea of what good is. What would you consider, Simms, Collins and Eli?
1. Why shouldn't we be interested in more out of the quarterback than Jones is currently providing?
2. Paying $30M to Daniel Jones even for one year is insane for any team. It's doubly insane for a team on the verge of a total rebuild.
We are damaged as a fanbase. The standards are so low.
4 years $73M total.
$12M signing bonus and salaries of 10, 14, 17, 20.
Fully guarantee the salaries in years 1 and 2. Which makes $36M total guaranteed, $5-6M more than hes promised if we exercise. Potential below-market for the team in years 3 and 4, eat $6M if he needs to be cut after the 2 years.
Thats not a realistic contract for a starting QB in the NFL
1. Why shouldn't we be interested in more out of the quarterback than Jones is currently providing?
2. Paying $30M to Daniel Jones even for one year is insane for any team. It's doubly insane for a team on the verge of a total rebuild.
We are damaged as a fanbase. The standards are so low.
Than thank God they wouldn't have to pay him that until 2024 at the earliest.
Good can win. We've seen it happen, quite a bit actually.
So let’s play this out, where they decline the 5th year option.
A) Jones shows management everything they need to prove he’s the guy
B) Jones shows management everything they need to prove he’s not
C) More ambiguity because of injuries, upheavals, etc.
So then:
A) If he’s the guy I’d wager he’s extended on a multi year deal, and if they cannot come to terms, he can be franchised
B) If he proves he’s not, they go their separate ways at no cost
C) If things are unclear they have a choice
I think the ~8M delta between the franchise tender and the 5th year option is a great insurance policy.
I don’t think there’s a good reason to not leave your options open.
To me, Jones needs to show greatness for the rest of '21. If he's good - BFD. We can find a lot of solutions who can be good.
Does anybody on this board think Jones was drafted to be good? The object was for him to be great. Otherwise, it's a wasted lottery pick.
What s wrong with Good, how many teams have good QBs? Who is great? BTWE the object of drafting every player in the 1st round is to be great, how often does that happen and why get rid of a good player to chase great when that rarely happens.
Do you really want to hitch your wagon to good?
I would rather hitch my wagon to great - Herbert, LJax, Allen, etc - and believe that players of that caliber having a better chance of success than the "good" option.
There is a lot that has to go into for the good option to succeed. A lot of more investment in high quality players, especially on one side of the ball. That is a very hard ask even for the most skilled GM.
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Sean and cosmicj get to the essence:
1. Why shouldn't we be interested in more out of the quarterback than Jones is currently providing?
2. Paying $30M to Daniel Jones even for one year is insane for any team. It's doubly insane for a team on the verge of a total rebuild.
We are damaged as a fanbase. The standards are so low.
Than thank God they wouldn't have to pay him that until 2024 at the earliest.
I don't want to pay him that ever. And 2024 isn't far away.
Why are we waiting for this guy to prove it? I can't wrap my mind around that mentality. If you go back to April the discussion centered on Jones "getting" (I hate that term in this context) 2021 to prove himself. 2021 is shaping up into a disaster similar to 2020...and now Jones "gets" 2022 as well?
It should be on him to kick the fucking door down!
Good can win. We've seen it happen, quite a bit actually.
But Jones isn't good. You could have replaced him this year with any number of journeymen and we'd be exactly where we are: 2-5 and one of the worst offenses in the league.
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but the way you guys post its like whoever we draft will do just that for us and that's what I take issue with. Getting rid of Jones this year and drafting a QB just puts him in the same shitty scenario unless we hit on the other draft picks too. There's greater chance our next QB is bad than it is great.
Good can win. We've seen it happen, quite a bit actually.
But Jones isn't good. You could have replaced him this year with any number of journeymen and we'd be exactly where we are: 2-5 and one of the worst offenses in the league.
So, going forward, how do you improve one of the worst offenses in the league?
We are facing a total rebuild with a new GM (DG will retire). There’s no reason to enter a rebuild with an average QB like Jones getting paid $30mm a year. It doesn’t make sense. You need to acquire another young QB and use their rookie contract.
Unless Jones starts playing at an all star level - which obviously changes the situation - dickering on the details of his play is almost irrelevant.
I'm there you with you, but just don't see them pulling the trigger on Jones. Figure there will be half measures, as usual, rather than a clean slate and an outside GM hire. They're stumble trying to build around Jones for a couple more years, then figure it out. It's also why I think they stick with Judge.
It should be on him to kick the fucking door down!
This should be a surgical economics evaluation.
The maximum upside of getting rid of Jones is 4M, assuming you can find trade partner. 4M is sunk in bonus, so even cutting him only costs you 4M more.
The option doesn’t have to be executed until after the draft. I think the play is see how the draft progresses, if you find your guy — you can cut, trade, or keep Jones for no more than +/- 4M dollars.
You mean to tell me the principal managers of the organization aren’t making decisions by polling BBI? Stellar contribution dude.
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About where the Giants are as a team.
We are facing a total rebuild with a new GM (DG will retire). There’s no reason to enter a rebuild with an average QB like Jones getting paid $30mm a year. It doesn’t make sense. You need to acquire another young QB and use their rookie contract.
Unless Jones starts playing at an all star level - which obviously changes the situation - dickering on the details of his play is almost irrelevant.
I'm there you with you, but just don't see them pulling the trigger on Jones. Figure there will be half measures, as usual, rather than a clean slate and an outside GM hire. They're stumble trying to build around Jones for a couple more years, then figure it out. It's also why I think they stick with Judge.
Halloween is five days away, Jon - we don't need these nightmares yet.
2. Fire and replace whomever has been scouting quarterbacks
3. Replace Garrett with an OC whose system belongs in 2021
4. Scout the hell out of the 2022 QB class
5. Be open to drafting a QB in 2022, but don't force it. At this stage I don't consider Corral in the top 10 to be forcing it.
6. If the QB prospect is there in the draft, great. If not, sign a journeyman FA placeholder until the prospect and opportunity line up.
7. Invest more premium assets in the offensive line.
Jones is not to blame for everything. The scheme and the OL stink too. But that doesn't mean Jones's issues will just disappear with a better scheme and OL.
Jones is going to leave the Giants and settle into a nice career as an NFL backup. When that happens and how many losses he adds to his resume is up to the Giants.
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2021 is shaping up into a disaster similar to 2020...and now Jones "gets" 2022 as well?
It should be on him to kick the fucking door down!
This should be a surgical economics evaluation.
The maximum upside of getting rid of Jones is 4M, assuming you can find trade partner. 4M is sunk in bonus, so even cutting him only costs you 4M more.
The option doesn’t have to be executed until after the draft. I think the play is see how the draft progresses, if you find your guy — you can cut, trade, or keep Jones for no more than +/- 4M dollars.
What about the value of getting a pick for him in trade? I know he's supposed to count about $8M against the cap next year - I don't know how much of that would still count if he were traded.
2x vs Philly
WFT
Chicago
Miami
Go win some games. Otherwise, I’m resetting at QB. That is my point. Again, is that not reasonable? Burrow doesn’t have excuses and he’s winning. Raise the standards here.
Burrow has the 5th best scoring allow defense. He has a much better line, he has an insane rookie who is on pace for 85 catches, 1800+ yards, and 14+ TDs, Tee Higgins, Tyler Boyd, Uzomah who has been a beast this year, and a good RB in Joe Mixon. They have all been healthy ever game except for Mixon missing one game I think. You don't think Daniel Jones is lighting things up and winning on that team? In fact if we just had there defense this year we are probably 4-3 in not 5-2. Our defense is ranked 22nd in points giving up more than a TD a game.
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That’s the reality of the salary cap.
You have a strange idea of what good is. What would you consider, Simms, Collins and Eli?
Simms - pre-cap and no free agency
Collins - cheap reclamation project with an elite arm
Eli - elite ceiling with a SB win before the end of his rookie deal
Let’s just raise the standards. Let’s see what Jones does the rest of the way.
No, the best thing about this thread is you got your 2 cents in with this post and that's about all it was worth...
The defenders are asking the critics to extrapolate from outlier performances that Jones has turned some kind of corner.
Score points with consistency and the respect will follow.
Results before respect.
Amen!
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To me, Jones needs to show greatness for the rest of '21. If he's good - BFD. We can find a lot of solutions who can be good.
Does anybody on this board think Jones was drafted to be good? The object was for him to be great. Otherwise, it's a wasted lottery pick.
What s wrong with Good, how many teams have good QBs? Who is great? BTWE the object of drafting every player in the 1st round is to be great, how often does that happen and why get rid of a good player to chase great when that rarely happens.
Do you really want to hitch your wagon to good?
I would rather hitch my wagon to great - Herbert, LJax, Allen, etc - and believe that players of that caliber having a better chance of success than the "good" option.
There is a lot that has to go into for the good option to succeed. A lot of more investment in high quality players, especially on one side of the ball. That is a very hard ask even for the most skilled GM.
It is not possible to be great at every position, Some positions you just have to be good at and move along(I'm not even talking about Jones per se, just any position)Why chase fools gold and keep recycling a team for great when it is a pipe dream, it just doesn't work. Also Hebert is not a great QB by any means, he is aa young QB that has shown some flashes but also has some warts, but you sure as hell cannot consider him great
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In comment 15430391 Walker Gillette said:
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To me, Jones needs to show greatness for the rest of '21. If he's good - BFD. We can find a lot of solutions who can be good.
Does anybody on this board think Jones was drafted to be good? The object was for him to be great. Otherwise, it's a wasted lottery pick.
What s wrong with Good, how many teams have good QBs? Who is great? BTWE the object of drafting every player in the 1st round is to be great, how often does that happen and why get rid of a good player to chase great when that rarely happens.
Do you really want to hitch your wagon to good?
I would rather hitch my wagon to great - Herbert, LJax, Allen, etc - and believe that players of that caliber having a better chance of success than the "good" option.
There is a lot that has to go into for the good option to succeed. A lot of more investment in high quality players, especially on one side of the ball. That is a very hard ask even for the most skilled GM.
It is not possible to be great at every position, Some positions you just have to be good at and move along(I'm not even talking about Jones per se, just any position)Why chase fools gold and keep recycling a team for great when it is a pipe dream, it just doesn't work. Also Hebert is not a great QB by any means, he is aa young QB that has shown some flashes but also has some warts, but you sure as hell cannot consider him great
Only shown flashes? Herbert is in his way to being great. Had 4300-31-10 as a rookie. Over his last 4 games he’s averaging 279 yards, 3 tds and .3 INT. He’s in pace for 4700, 37 and 11 this year on a potential AFC contender.
If he’s only shown flashes then just dump Jones now cause he’s shown nothing.
Good can win. We've seen it happen, quite a bit actually.
I agree it's a challenge. But these QBs are more precocious than ever with the enormous change in style - spread offenses - of play at the high school and college levels. So the ability to find solutions are much faster. Which makes me optimistic that we could move on from Jones - in theory - if we had that one key piece - a better GM! ;)
Only shown flashes? Herbert is in his way to being great. Had 4300-31-10 as a rookie. Over his last 4 games he’s averaging 279 yards, 3 tds and .3 INT. He’s in pace for 4700, 37 and 11 this year on a potential AFC contender.
If he’s only shown flashes then just dump Jones now cause he’s shown nothing.
It's amazing that Daniel Jones can play one average game and one above average game and people around here can't wait to tell you he's going to be an elite QB, but all Justin Herbert has done in 21 career starts is throw 45 TDs, run for another 6, while turning the ball over only 16 times and people find any reason to shit on him.
Justin Herbert is better than Jones in virtually every single way. His arm is better. His delivery is faster. His processing and anticipation is better.
He was better in high school. Better in college. And now better in the NFL, and it's insane to argue otherwise.
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In comment 15430393 cosmicj said:
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That’s the reality of the salary cap.
You have a strange idea of what good is. What would you consider, Simms, Collins and Eli?
Simms - pre-cap and no free agency
Collins - cheap reclamation project with an elite arm
Eli - elite ceiling with a SB win before the end of his rookie deal
Are they good/Great, etc. Cause I loved Simms and Eli and I do not think either was great.
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Only shown flashes? Herbert is in his way to being great. Had 4300-31-10 as a rookie. Over his last 4 games he’s averaging 279 yards, 3 tds and .3 INT. He’s in pace for 4700, 37 and 11 this year on a potential AFC contender.
If he’s only shown flashes then just dump Jones now cause he’s shown nothing.
It's amazing that Daniel Jones can play one average game and one above average game and people around here can't wait to tell you he's going to be an elite QB, but all Justin Herbert has done in 21 career starts is throw 45 TDs, run for another 6, while turning the ball over only 16 times and people find any reason to shit on him.
Justin Herbert is better than Jones in virtually every single way. His arm is better. His delivery is faster. His processing and anticipation is better.
He was better in high school. Better in college. And now better in the NFL, and it's insane to argue otherwise.
It’s insane. I’m fine if people think Jones can be the guy but comments like Herbert only showing flashes while they’re also saying Jones carried the team Sunday and is a bonafide franchise QB and anyone who thinks otherwise should root for another makes it unbearable.
Herbert in two years is going to double Jones’ TD output from Jones first two, and probably triple it over the last two years. Yea his weapons are way better, but so is Herbert. Jones has light years to catch up to Herbert.
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Only shown flashes? Herbert is in his way to being great. Had 4300-31-10 as a rookie. Over his last 4 games he’s averaging 279 yards, 3 tds and .3 INT. He’s in pace for 4700, 37 and 11 this year on a potential AFC contender.
If he’s only shown flashes then just dump Jones now cause he’s shown nothing.
It's amazing that Daniel Jones can play one average game and one above average game and people around here can't wait to tell you he's going to be an elite QB, but all Justin Herbert has done in 21 career starts is throw 45 TDs, run for another 6, while turning the ball over only 16 times and people find any reason to shit on him.
Justin Herbert is better than Jones in virtually every single way. His arm is better. His delivery is faster. His processing and anticipation is better.
He was better in high school. Better in college. And now better in the NFL, and it's insane to argue otherwise.
So it's shitting on him to say he's not great, what are you his Mom? Great is Aaron Rodgers or Brady. I know he's a qb on another team so many Giant fans worship him, but lets give great a break for a moment.
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In comment 15430519 ajr2456 said:
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Only shown flashes? Herbert is in his way to being great. Had 4300-31-10 as a rookie. Over his last 4 games he’s averaging 279 yards, 3 tds and .3 INT. He’s in pace for 4700, 37 and 11 this year on a potential AFC contender.
If he’s only shown flashes then just dump Jones now cause he’s shown nothing.
It's amazing that Daniel Jones can play one average game and one above average game and people around here can't wait to tell you he's going to be an elite QB, but all Justin Herbert has done in 21 career starts is throw 45 TDs, run for another 6, while turning the ball over only 16 times and people find any reason to shit on him.
Justin Herbert is better than Jones in virtually every single way. His arm is better. His delivery is faster. His processing and anticipation is better.
He was better in high school. Better in college. And now better in the NFL, and it's insane to argue otherwise.
So it's shitting on him to say he's not great, what are you his Mom? Great is Aaron Rodgers or Brady. I know he's a qb on another team so many Giant fans worship him, but lets give great a break for a moment.
And who brought Jones into this, we were talking about good as an option for a position. You're so hyped up to shit on Jones you just can't resist can you.
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In comment 15430519 ajr2456 said:
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Only shown flashes? Herbert is in his way to being great. Had 4300-31-10 as a rookie. Over his last 4 games he’s averaging 279 yards, 3 tds and .3 INT. He’s in pace for 4700, 37 and 11 this year on a potential AFC contender.
If he’s only shown flashes then just dump Jones now cause he’s shown nothing.
It's amazing that Daniel Jones can play one average game and one above average game and people around here can't wait to tell you he's going to be an elite QB, but all Justin Herbert has done in 21 career starts is throw 45 TDs, run for another 6, while turning the ball over only 16 times and people find any reason to shit on him.
Justin Herbert is better than Jones in virtually every single way. His arm is better. His delivery is faster. His processing and anticipation is better.
He was better in high school. Better in college. And now better in the NFL, and it's insane to argue otherwise.
So it's shitting on him to say he's not great, what are you his Mom? Great is Aaron Rodgers or Brady. I know he's a qb on another team so many Giant fans worship him, but lets give great a break for a moment.
You said he’s only shown flashes which is a lie. What he is that Jones isn’t is consistent. There’s a better chance that Herbert turns into a great QB than Jones, partially because he’s almost there in year 2. Jones is still trying to be good for 50% of the year.
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Only shown flashes? Herbert is in his way to being great. Had 4300-31-10 as a rookie. Over his last 4 games he’s averaging 279 yards, 3 tds and .3 INT. He’s in pace for 4700, 37 and 11 this year on a potential AFC contender.
If he’s only shown flashes then just dump Jones now cause he’s shown nothing.
It's amazing that Daniel Jones can play one average game and one above average game and people around here can't wait to tell you he's going to be an elite QB, but all Justin Herbert has done in 21 career starts is throw 45 TDs, run for another 6, while turning the ball over only 16 times and people find any reason to shit on him.
Justin Herbert is better than Jones in virtually every single way. His arm is better. His delivery is faster. His processing and anticipation is better.
He was better in high school. Better in college. And now better in the NFL, and it's insane to argue otherwise.
It is because you people want to compare DJ to everyone and Herbert is one of the favorites. People say things like in virtually every single way... Ummm running the ball Jones is better. I mean the fact is Herbert wouldn't have as good of stats he has had on the Chargers if he was on the Giants roster during the same time. Just like Daniel Jones would be better on the same the same roster as Herbert.
In saying that, Herbert is amazing... No one is saying he isn't good. In fact I will say he is amazing going towards Elite. Daniel Jones isn't some bum though because Herbert is so good. Jones just came off of a rookie season with 24 passing TDs and what 4 rushing TDs in 14 games. He has had crap or unhealthy weapons his whole career while Herbert has studs. Herbert was never going to be drafted by us.
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In comment 15430542 rsjem1979 said:
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In comment 15430519 ajr2456 said:
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Only shown flashes? Herbert is in his way to being great. Had 4300-31-10 as a rookie. Over his last 4 games he’s averaging 279 yards, 3 tds and .3 INT. He’s in pace for 4700, 37 and 11 this year on a potential AFC contender.
If he’s only shown flashes then just dump Jones now cause he’s shown nothing.
It's amazing that Daniel Jones can play one average game and one above average game and people around here can't wait to tell you he's going to be an elite QB, but all Justin Herbert has done in 21 career starts is throw 45 TDs, run for another 6, while turning the ball over only 16 times and people find any reason to shit on him.
Justin Herbert is better than Jones in virtually every single way. His arm is better. His delivery is faster. His processing and anticipation is better.
He was better in high school. Better in college. And now better in the NFL, and it's insane to argue otherwise.
So it's shitting on him to say he's not great, what are you his Mom? Great is Aaron Rodgers or Brady. I know he's a qb on another team so many Giant fans worship him, but lets give great a break for a moment.
You said he’s only shown flashes which is a lie. What he is that Jones isn’t is consistent. There’s a better chance that Herbert turns into a great QB than Jones, partially because he’s almost there in year 2. Jones is still trying to be good for 50% of the year.
Here comes another member of the Hebert family having an aneurism. What is with you guys really/
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In comment 15430570 Walker Gillette said:
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In comment 15430542 rsjem1979 said:
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In comment 15430519 ajr2456 said:
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Only shown flashes? Herbert is in his way to being great. Had 4300-31-10 as a rookie. Over his last 4 games he’s averaging 279 yards, 3 tds and .3 INT. He’s in pace for 4700, 37 and 11 this year on a potential AFC contender.
If he’s only shown flashes then just dump Jones now cause he’s shown nothing.
It's amazing that Daniel Jones can play one average game and one above average game and people around here can't wait to tell you he's going to be an elite QB, but all Justin Herbert has done in 21 career starts is throw 45 TDs, run for another 6, while turning the ball over only 16 times and people find any reason to shit on him.
Justin Herbert is better than Jones in virtually every single way. His arm is better. His delivery is faster. His processing and anticipation is better.
He was better in high school. Better in college. And now better in the NFL, and it's insane to argue otherwise.
So it's shitting on him to say he's not great, what are you his Mom? Great is Aaron Rodgers or Brady. I know he's a qb on another team so many Giant fans worship him, but lets give great a break for a moment.
You said he’s only shown flashes which is a lie. What he is that Jones isn’t is consistent. There’s a better chance that Herbert turns into a great QB than Jones, partially because he’s almost there in year 2. Jones is still trying to be good for 50% of the year.
Here comes another member of the Hebert family having an aneurism. What is with you guys really/
Is this your only comeback because you know you’re wrong?