Stearns was in fact blocked in 2018, he was later promoted to both POBO and GM. There is no "rule" stopping the Brewers from doing this, but it would be dirty because in Stearns case he had a potential promotion (which he got), Arnold would not. But again, it's "allowed".
Arnold was there when Stearns got blocked in 2018 and he got promoted to GM last year after Stearns got blocked from the Mets. He likely got promoted in advance of getting blocked from being interviewed as a GM candidate.
I'd bet a lot the language in his contract Martino mentioned is that he's allowed to interview for promotions. Either that or his agent sucks at his job.
Eric,
There is flat out no "rule" that teams have to allow interviews even for promotions. Tom Haudricourt has covered the Brewers since 1985 and he said "it's unlikely the Brewers would block it" aka they can if they choose to.
Dan I know that but nobody knows what's in his contract
and his contract can say whatever the 2 parties agreed to. Has nothing to do with rules. He could have specifically requested an allowance to interview for promotions. If I saw my boss get blocked twice for promotions you can bet I'd have asked for that before signing a contract.
"the sport maintains a professional courtesy to allow executives to pursue job openings at other clubs if it involves a promotion. Privately, executives acknowledge that has led to a bit of titular chicanery in which roles are given elevated titles to pry talented executives from rivals or to play defense against such poaching."
aka no actual rule.
RE: Dan I know that but nobody knows what's in his contract
and his contract can say whatever the 2 parties agreed to. Has nothing to do with rules. He could have specifically requested an allowance to interview for promotions. If I saw my boss get blocked twice for promotions you can bet I'd have asked for that before signing a contract.
I'm confused, why would he put any language in his contract making it harder to leave? Martino's tweets are implying his ability to speak to other clubs is LIMITED by the specific language. That's the opposite of what you're suggesting so I'm very confused.
" Also, there is a belief that Arnold has language in his contract that limits his ability to interview with other clubs. Arnold did not respond to a request to fact check that last point."
That's the complete opposite of "he saw what Stearns went through so he has language that helps him".
confused by your point. He saw his boss was limited/blocked so he put in extra language limiting talking to other clubs? This sure reads like the Brewers limited what he can do (assuming Martino is even right).
"the sport maintains a professional courtesy to allow executives to pursue job openings at other clubs if it involves a promotion. Privately, executives acknowledge that has led to a bit of titular chicanery in which roles are given elevated titles to pry talented executives from rivals or to play defense against such poaching."
it Would be beyond unusual for a team to block an employee from discussing a promotion.
and I replied that it was heavily suggested last year that exactly that happened to mets.
either way it doesn't matter. reposting what Martino said again:
Quote:
Andy Martino
@martinonyc
The Mets need permission to speak to Arnold because he is under contract with another club. Also, there is a belief that Arnold has language in his contract that limits his ability to interview with other clubs. Arnold did not respond to a request to fact check that last point.
the way this is phrased is deceptive. If he was under a typical MLB contract where there are no rules re: blocking, he'd have no ability to interview with other clubs.
it is a reverse negative, if there is specific language in his contract that limits his ability to interview with other clubs, that means there's also language in his contract that allows him to interview with other clubs under some set of specified conditions.
looking at the all that he's been through my best guess is that he got it in his contract that he's allowed to interview for promotions.
Will Carroll
@injuryexpert
·
2h
Teams are not supposed to block promotions from team to team, but remember, there's still a contract involved. "Asking permission" is a courtesy. And yes, it's happened that things get blocked, even for promotions. Ask Dan Duquette.
if there's language in his contract that limits his ability to interview with other clubs.
that presumably means somewhere in that contract he has the ability to interview with other clubs.
or else what is that language limiting? why the need for any special language since the default in MLB is all contracts need permission.
limiting language would only be needed if the team was agreeing to carve out and scenarios where they would allow the person in question to interview. like a promotion, or a certain geography, or whatever.
if the guiding principle of MLB exec contracts is that they are ironclad at the owner's discretion like a player with a NTC, I read from Martino's tweet that there's some speculation that Arnold has a LNTC.
He is a new GM so he very well may not have viewed his situation as having a tremendous amount of leverage so he may not have included a clause on interviewing for promotions. I would think any GM on their second or third contract would have that commitment.
He is a new GM so he very well may not have viewed his situation as having a tremendous amount of leverage so he may not have included a clause on interviewing for promotions. I would think any GM on their second or third contract would have that commitment.
well apparently he included something.
and if I had seen my boss get blocked twice in the last 2 years, including just weeks earlier, I know what I would have held out for...
Suspect it’s based on teams. The Brewers owner is known to be the most defensive and outspoken when it comes to “small markets” so it stands to reason he looks to protect his franchise from being “poached” by the big bad wolf aka big market teams. Now that doesn’t mean he won’t let Arnold go, but such a move might be one that isn’t a guaranteed “yes” vs. Arnold going to say the Marlins. I’m just guessing here but it’s been oft repeated how defensive he is of the small markets.
Suspect it’s based on teams. The Brewers owner is known to be the most defensive and outspoken when it comes to “small markets” so it stands to reason he looks to protect his franchise from being “poached” by the big bad wolf aka big market teams. Now that doesn’t mean he won’t let Arnold go, but such a move might be one that isn’t a guaranteed “yes” vs. Arnold going to say the Marlins. I’m just guessing here but it’s been oft repeated how defensive he is of the small markets.
anything is possible - but whatever it is combined with the other rumors gives some hope. last year who knows what Arnold's contract status was pre-promotion. He clearly had some kind of leverage - and it may well have been from the mets sniffing around permission to interview him for gm.
Wife didn’t want to move. I can state that for a “fact” as I know somebody who knows them. Cleveland is quite good about letting their guys move on him, she (his wife) didn’t love the idea of moving their children to NY/NJ
I believe that. This job is a very big life change for any of these guys and they are all already living some version of their dream life.
I think it was Rory who posted something along those lines last night and there's truth in it. They need to find not just a great baseball person but a great hire who can fit here. And when they find that guy Cohen needs to give him the offer he can't refuse.
Cohen also needs to give him confidence he will stick with him for the long haul despite any pressure to make a change in bad times.
Have yet to grant permission and yes, they have to do so for the Mets to talk to him. Promotion or not, still needs approval and isn’t a “rule” like people were parroting. It’s what’s normally done however
He is a new GM so he very well may not have viewed his situation as having a tremendous amount of leverage so he may not have included a clause on interviewing for promotions. I would think any GM on their second or third contract would have that commitment.
This appears accurate. Heyman says you need language included involving promotions or they don’t have to let you do so.
He is a new GM so he very well may not have viewed his situation as having a tremendous amount of leverage so he may not have included a clause on interviewing for promotions. I would think any GM on their second or third contract would have that commitment.
This appears accurate. Heyman says you need language included involving promotions or they don’t have to let you do so.
this is basic to all contracts when there's no superseding rule (like a CBA or MLB rule) and why Martino's initial tweet was interesting because it implied there was some kind of language in Arnold's deal re: interviewing elsewhere.
that said everyone else has pulled their reporting back in the same direction as Martino so it appears that glimmer of hope wasn't anything more than that.
semi-unrelated but Martino also tweeted today the Mets were blocked on Gomes last year (presumably from interviewing for a promotion to GM). So I guess that's at least 1 of the examples they were citing last year when they mentioned they were blocked unexpectedly even for promotions.
Baseball should really clean up that rule but I'd bet against it. Owners don't generally like giving up any autonomous power.
I trust Martino's info a lot more because he has a much lengthier track record. I said "if he's right" for a reason.
it shouldn't matter whether what he wrote was before or after Martino's post though - if he has it right from a real source the mets could still be optimistic they are getting him despite what Martino posted (who was also clear to say Arnold could happen).
the real question is how can a team who "hasn't requested permission" be "optimistic" by one account and actually made an offer by another presumably different source?
(my answer to that question is the theory above, that requesting permission is unnecessary).
net-net I think there's a negotiation in progress with Arnold and I hope for all of our sakes it concludes swiftly.
Is handling the search himself per Britt Ghiroli. It was delayed by a vacation he went on and it sounds as if the rest of the FO is not part of this search (including Sandy)
Owner Steve Cohen is running the executive search on his own, according to multiple sources, with little input even from team president Sandy Alderson. That’s a notable change from last winter, when Alderson was more involved in the search that eventually landed on Jared Porter in mid-December. (Porter was fired in January for sexual harassment during a prior tenure in Chicago.)
Also just want to say if you think this is actually going fine, had multiple baseball people send me that tweet with various versions of “LOL” within five minutes of it going up.
After all the talk last night and finally getting word the Mets got permission to talk to Arnold this morning, and within an hour he doesn’t want the job
I find it hard to believe they would have asked for permission without knowing Arnold wanted to talk in the first place.
I don’t generally like conspiracy theories but that seems to have a been done in a way that maximizes making Cohen and the org look bad.
Who knows what or where the issues are, but the #Mets struggling to fill this role is obviously not a good look for the organization. There really is no way around it. Take out the Stearns/Beane/Theo group and they still got denied by both Harris and now Arnold. Not great.
martinonyc's avatar
Andy Martino
@martinonyc
The final line on Matt Arnold and Mets: Brewers did deny permission, Mets wondered if they would reconsider, it dragged out a while, they never talked.
honestly I'm ready to just go back to Porter. Is the guy a leper because he showed bad judgement and sent an unwanted dick pic?
if there's more than that by all means keep him away but if that's all there was he's a far cry from Mickey Callaway (who will be able to apply for reinstatement next year).
martinonyc's avatar
Andy Martino
@martinonyc
The final line on Matt Arnold and Mets: Brewers did deny permission, Mets wondered if they would reconsider, it dragged out a while, they never talked.
honestly I'm ready to just go back to Porter. Is the guy a leper because he showed bad judgement and sent an unwanted dick pic?
if there's more than that by all means keep him away but if that's all there was he's a far cry from Mickey Callaway (who will be able to apply for reinstatement next year).
Eric,
Last time you mentioned him I looked him up. He's ineligible through 2022 (like Callaway) he's basically banned from baseball for now.
martinonyc's avatar
Andy Martino
@martinonyc
The final line on Matt Arnold and Mets: Brewers did deny permission, Mets wondered if they would reconsider, it dragged out a while, they never talked.
honestly I'm ready to just go back to Porter. Is the guy a leper because he showed bad judgement and sent an unwanted dick pic?
if there's more than that by all means keep him away but if that's all there was he's a far cry from Mickey Callaway (who will be able to apply for reinstatement next year).
Eric,
Last time you mentioned him I looked him up. He's ineligible through 2022 (like Callaway) he's basically banned from baseball for now.
damn. guess that makes sense though. i hope cohen gets pissed at the other owners denying all these interviews and makes theo an obscene offer.
1% for every WS appearance and 2% for WS wins (and maybe cap him at 10%). that's $120m+ in equity now that will only grow and with the potential to double it with success.
hiring Theo is as close as you can get to buying a WS and that seems a pretty fair price if he delivers.
is going to manage in Mexico. In his case, it makes sense to me. Can't see an MLB team ever hiring him again so it's either this or maybe a small college?
is going to manage in Mexico. In his case, it makes sense to me. Can't see an MLB team ever hiring him again so it's either this or maybe a small college?
Owens was a finalist to be GM last time, now he's not even in the mix? Kinda odd.
we don't know for sure if he is or isn't but that's one where Sandy had a firsthand relationship and I'm fairly confident Beane would grant permission. So either Owens feels burned from last year or the Mets didn't choose him for a reason.
Quote:
Stearns was in fact blocked in 2018, he was later promoted to both POBO and GM. There is no "rule" stopping the Brewers from doing this, but it would be dirty because in Stearns case he had a potential promotion (which he got), Arnold would not. But again, it's "allowed".
Arnold was there when Stearns got blocked in 2018 and he got promoted to GM last year after Stearns got blocked from the Mets. He likely got promoted in advance of getting blocked from being interviewed as a GM candidate.
I'd bet a lot the language in his contract Martino mentioned is that he's allowed to interview for promotions. Either that or his agent sucks at his job.
Eric,
There is flat out no "rule" that teams have to allow interviews even for promotions. Tom Haudricourt has covered the Brewers since 1985 and he said "it's unlikely the Brewers would block it" aka they can if they choose to.
aka no actual rule.
I'm confused, why would he put any language in his contract making it harder to leave? Martino's tweets are implying his ability to speak to other clubs is LIMITED by the specific language. That's the opposite of what you're suggesting so I'm very confused.
" Also, there is a belief that Arnold has language in his contract that limits his ability to interview with other clubs. Arnold did not respond to a request to fact check that last point."
That's the complete opposite of "he saw what Stearns went through so he has language that helps him".
Mills
@MillManner
·
1h
“Matt Arnold’s name has some veracity… if he gets the [Mets job], it would not shock me.”
- @JeffPassan
on @TMKSESPN
aka no actual rule.
I know that and I said so above. You said:
In comment 15430353 DanMetroMan said:
and I replied that it was heavily suggested last year that exactly that happened to mets.
either way it doesn't matter. reposting what Martino said again:
@martinonyc
The Mets need permission to speak to Arnold because he is under contract with another club. Also, there is a belief that Arnold has language in his contract that limits his ability to interview with other clubs. Arnold did not respond to a request to fact check that last point.
the way this is phrased is deceptive. If he was under a typical MLB contract where there are no rules re: blocking, he'd have no ability to interview with other clubs.
it is a reverse negative, if there is specific language in his contract that limits his ability to interview with other clubs, that means there's also language in his contract that allows him to interview with other clubs under some set of specified conditions.
looking at the all that he's been through my best guess is that he got it in his contract that he's allowed to interview for promotions.
Jon Heyman
@JonHeyman
Brewers GM Matt Arnold is in the mix for a top Mets job. Unclear if he’s received an offer. @NYPost_Mets
on it
@injuryexpert
·
2h
Teams are not supposed to block promotions from team to team, but remember, there's still a contract involved. "Asking permission" is a courtesy. And yes, it's happened that things get blocked, even for promotions. Ask Dan Duquette.
that presumably means somewhere in that contract he has the ability to interview with other clubs.
or else what is that language limiting? why the need for any special language since the default in MLB is all contracts need permission.
limiting language would only be needed if the team was agreeing to carve out and scenarios where they would allow the person in question to interview. like a promotion, or a certain geography, or whatever.
if the guiding principle of MLB exec contracts is that they are ironclad at the owner's discretion like a player with a NTC, I read from Martino's tweet that there's some speculation that Arnold has a LNTC.
well apparently he included something.
and if I had seen my boss get blocked twice in the last 2 years, including just weeks earlier, I know what I would have held out for...
anything is possible - but whatever it is combined with the other rumors gives some hope. last year who knows what Arnold's contract status was pre-promotion. He clearly had some kind of leverage - and it may well have been from the mets sniffing around permission to interview him for gm.
Quote:
Wife didn’t want to move. I can state that for a “fact” as I know somebody who knows them. Cleveland is quite good about letting their guys move on him, she (his wife) didn’t love the idea of moving their children to NY/NJ
I believe that. This job is a very big life change for any of these guys and they are all already living some version of their dream life.
I think it was Rory who posted something along those lines last night and there's truth in it. They need to find not just a great baseball person but a great hire who can fit here. And when they find that guy Cohen needs to give him the offer he can't refuse.
Cohen also needs to give him confidence he will stick with him for the long haul despite any pressure to make a change in bad times.
This appears accurate. Heyman says you need language included involving promotions or they don’t have to let you do so.
Quote:
He is a new GM so he very well may not have viewed his situation as having a tremendous amount of leverage so he may not have included a clause on interviewing for promotions. I would think any GM on their second or third contract would have that commitment.
This appears accurate. Heyman says you need language included involving promotions or they don’t have to let you do so.
this is basic to all contracts when there's no superseding rule (like a CBA or MLB rule) and why Martino's initial tweet was interesting because it implied there was some kind of language in Arnold's deal re: interviewing elsewhere.
that said everyone else has pulled their reporting back in the same direction as Martino so it appears that glimmer of hope wasn't anything more than that.
semi-unrelated but Martino also tweeted today the Mets were blocked on Gomes last year (presumably from interviewing for a promotion to GM). So I guess that's at least 1 of the examples they were citing last year when they mentioned they were blocked unexpectedly even for promotions.
Baseball should really clean up that rule but I'd bet against it. Owners don't generally like giving up any autonomous power.
Jon Heyman
@JonHeyman
Brewers GM Matt Arnold is in the mix for a top Mets job. Unclear if he’s received an offer. @NYPost_Mets
on it
Pulling for this hire. Arnold would be a solid choice. Looks like this is gaining some momentum as well with the media this morning.
Yup!!
Michael Mayer
@mikemayer22
Sources: The Mets have been given permission to talk to Brewers executive Matt Arnold.
it shouldn't matter whether what he wrote was before or after Martino's post though - if he has it right from a real source the mets could still be optimistic they are getting him despite what Martino posted (who was also clear to say Arnold could happen).
the real question is how can a team who "hasn't requested permission" be "optimistic" by one account and actually made an offer by another presumably different source?
(my answer to that question is the theory above, that requesting permission is unnecessary).
net-net I think there's a negotiation in progress with Arnold and I hope for all of our sakes it concludes swiftly.
Mayer with the exclusive….
So I remain confused as to why Sandy was kept on.
Fuck man. This process has been frustrating for the fans.
I find it hard to believe they would have asked for permission without knowing Arnold wanted to talk in the first place.
I don’t generally like conspiracy theories but that seems to have a been done in a way that maximizes making Cohen and the org look bad.
Andy Martino
@martinonyc
The final line on Matt Arnold and Mets: Brewers did deny permission, Mets wondered if they would reconsider, it dragged out a while, they never talked.
honestly I'm ready to just go back to Porter. Is the guy a leper because he showed bad judgement and sent an unwanted dick pic?
if there's more than that by all means keep him away but if that's all there was he's a far cry from Mickey Callaway (who will be able to apply for reinstatement next year).
Quote:
martinonyc's avatar
Andy Martino
@martinonyc
The final line on Matt Arnold and Mets: Brewers did deny permission, Mets wondered if they would reconsider, it dragged out a while, they never talked.
honestly I'm ready to just go back to Porter. Is the guy a leper because he showed bad judgement and sent an unwanted dick pic?
if there's more than that by all means keep him away but if that's all there was he's a far cry from Mickey Callaway (who will be able to apply for reinstatement next year).
Eric,
Last time you mentioned him I looked him up. He's ineligible through 2022 (like Callaway) he's basically banned from baseball for now.
Quote:
Quote:
martinonyc's avatar
Andy Martino
@martinonyc
The final line on Matt Arnold and Mets: Brewers did deny permission, Mets wondered if they would reconsider, it dragged out a while, they never talked.
honestly I'm ready to just go back to Porter. Is the guy a leper because he showed bad judgement and sent an unwanted dick pic?
if there's more than that by all means keep him away but if that's all there was he's a far cry from Mickey Callaway (who will be able to apply for reinstatement next year).
Eric,
Last time you mentioned him I looked him up. He's ineligible through 2022 (like Callaway) he's basically banned from baseball for now.
damn. guess that makes sense though. i hope cohen gets pissed at the other owners denying all these interviews and makes theo an obscene offer.
that's a terrific idea for a sitcom though.
hiring Theo is as close as you can get to buying a WS and that seems a pretty fair price if he delivers.
maybe an all guys school.
@mikemayer22
Folks, my previous tweet about Matt Arnold was wrong.
I apologize for for giving incorrect info.
More likely Tanous or Levin (if they stay in house).
@mikemayer22
Folks, my previous tweet about Matt Arnold was wrong.
I apologize for for giving incorrect info.
what was the previous tweet? that he took himself out of contention as opposed to the brewers denying?
Quote:
Michael Mayer
@mikemayer22
Folks, my previous tweet about Matt Arnold was wrong.
I apologize for for giving incorrect info.
what was the previous tweet? that he took himself out of contention as opposed to the brewers denying?
Yes. They the Brewers gave permission.
@WexlerRules
·
1h
Sandy came back, Omar came back… only one answer here @Jim_Duquette
part deux #Mets
Jim Duquette
@Jim_Duquette
·
Replying to
@WexlerRules
Lol
we don't know for sure if he is or isn't but that's one where Sandy had a firsthand relationship and I'm fairly confident Beane would grant permission. So either Owens feels burned from last year or the Mets didn't choose him for a reason.
Byrnes or Levine?
Link - ( New Window )