I’ve gotten a lot of shit about my thread about the Panthers a few weeks back, but my point has always been organizational alignment. I’ve also made a thread about why I think it is not an issue if a new general manager inherits Judge. My frustration is around the narrative that Judge should be on the hot seat. I think that is unfair, and this is only an issue because of Gettleman. No one is saying Matt Rhule should be on the hot seat in Carolina.
Judge was not hired for a quick fix. He got a 5 year contract, and was hired to build a program and culture. Judge inherited a GM already on the hot seat, a QB which he was not part of the evaluation process & numerous roster issues. Judge inherited a 4-12 team. Let’s look at Judge’s record against similar, young HC hires in rebuild situations through 23 games:
Zak Taylor: 3-19-1
Kyle Shanahan: 7-16
Matt Rhule: 8-15
Brian Flores: 9-14
Joe Judge is 8-15. I selected all those coaches because they all inherited similar situations. Judge inherited this team at the bottom as did the coaches referenced above.
This was Judge’s answer yesterday to a question about the trade deadline:
| I always think long-term. Sometimes, long-term can come in a move you can make immediately at this point, but I’m always thinking long-term. I’ve said this from the beginning, I’m not about taking shortcuts into anything. I’ve made it very clear in terms of my vision of the team and where I want to build it. It’s being built for long-term success. I have a lot of faith in the people we have in this program right now, but ultimately my vision always goes long-term. I’m always looking at – just for everyone listening, I’m always looking at not only what our depth chart is now, but what does it look like at the end of this year, beginning of next year, what does it look like two years from now? Whether you’re going through free agency, trades, draft, whatever it may be, to me, you’re always looking down the road in terms of not where you are immediately, but where do you have to get to. That’s my perspective on that. |
Everything is long term. This is why he was hired.
Judge has some issues he still needs to work through. He has been too conservative this season, but I’m thinking bigger picture with Judge. He was hired at 38 to build a program. Let’s start to look at Judge as long term and not some lame duck coach. At some point, this team needs to stop blowing through coaches every two years. I think it is a bad look to hire a young coach for the long term, and then fire him 2 years in after firing the last two guys after 2 years (McAdoo even less).
Of course if the Giants lose out and he loses the team that changes things, but I’d be surprised if that was the outcome.
I’m still hopeful that Judge will be successful here.
Okay, fire him. Then hire some other young guy who starts 8-15 and then you can fire him too. That’s how the cycle never ends.
Brian Flores too - he was 5-11 in year one and started 2020 4-3, so he was 9-14.
I think you have a good point about perspective though. It is hard to win in the nfl. The Stefanskis are the outliers.
Pete Carroll is possibly HOF bound and he admitted last night without Russell Wilson he may not have lasted as long as he has in Seattle. Hard business.
Judge is the CEO, and the business he took over is a mess. He’s working it out.
I think the biggest challenge for him is the two guys above him are abject morons.
judge was a special teams coach for the patriots who never built a program in his life.
lets be honest. judge got a 5-year contract because rhule got scooped by tepper for a 7-year contract. i'm not some rhule fanboi by any means, but listen to mara's presser after the judge hire- it's clear what happened.
judge can talk long-term all he wants but it doesn't comport with the reality of a roster constructed in half-assed "win now" fashion, but not winning.
regardless of all the long-term talk, he's going to have to have some +.500 seasons sooner than later.
although given mara's comments last week, it seems that maybe "not losing the locker room" is the new bar for a successful season. a long way from the whole "meaningful games in december" thing.
He was hired to win football games. He hasn’t won football games. But just because the Giants fired other lousy head coaches, we can’t fire this lousy head coach? Makes zero sense.
But okay, he’s building a program. What’s the program? Innovative offense? Nope. New fangled defense? Not yet. Cracker Jack special teams? Not quite. Super smart game management? Exploiting mismatches after hours of film study? Not here. So seriously, aside from real good Wally and Beav type coach speak, wth kind of “program” is being built? Idk. But I hope you guys are right because there isn’t much else to look forward to this season. Or next I suppose.
Any normal logical fan will understand this team's front 7 overall sucks as does it's OL. News flash: Tow players out of 7 playing pretty well is not good enough.
Add in the FACT their TE's are atrocious, their WR';s are always hurt, as is their star RB and their QB is definitely not elite--
but yeah let's blame Judge.
win now and plan for the future so the winning continues
I didnt like Judge's response there even though I like the guy. I guess he just has a bland manner. Had a belly full of that with Pat Shurmur.
If I have any criticism of him is that he is too emotionless
I dont see a fired up team coming out of that tunnel every Sunday/Monday....Lombardi fired up his charges, Buddy Ryan did too. Somehow Belichik despite his interviews gets NE very ready to play.
He was hired to win football games. He hasn’t won football games. But just because the Giants fired other lousy head coaches, we can’t fire this lousy head coach? Makes zero sense.
But okay, he’s building a program. What’s the program? Innovative offense? Nope. New fangled defense? Not yet. Cracker Jack special teams? Not quite. Super smart game management? Exploiting mismatches after hours of film study? Not here. So seriously, aside from real good Wally and Beav type coach speak, wth kind of “program” is being built? Idk. But I hope you guys are right because there isn’t much else to look forward to this season. Or next I suppose.
Odd post. Care to explain why Shanahan started poorly, and by the way he’s been pretty shitty this year too. Can’t criticize Shanahan though. How about Matt Rhule who got a massive contract and also has started 8-15? Zak Taylor had a horrific record after 23 games.
Just keep firing these guys I guess, right?
no excuses
Now is the time to begin a surge....if not heads will roll
I dont see anyone on the schedule we cannot beat- Dallas and Tampa included
its all a mind game....confidence....domination should be in every players consciousness
To hell with re-building
WIN NOW. Run the table
Every time a new coaching staff starts.....its a rebuild imo.
Yes...these coaches cost us 2 games....4-3 is much better than 2-5.....but let's hope they learn and get better.
The cycle of losing must end....let's hope this is the right people.
Stay the course
Every time a new coaching staff starts.....its a rebuild imo.
Yes...these coaches cost us 2 games....4-3 is much better than 2-5.....but let's hope they learn and get better.
The cycle of losing must end....let's hope this is the right people.
Stay the course
Exactly. As the records of the coaches I mention in my OP confirm as well. Judge took over a disaster.
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Always said long term, really. So the plan all along was to be a crappy head coach in the interim. Just like extended pre-season. Someone else has started getting involved, because I see his pet project special teamer Jackson just got cut. Ebner a long term decision. Challenging plays that can’t be challenged long term. Sending FA signees into retirement because of your high school football coaching tactics long term? Guy is in over his head. One good move this guy made was hiring Sale.
Okay, fire him. Then hire some other young guy who starts 8-15 and then you can fire him too. That’s how the cycle never ends.
Exactly, and let's draft a QB so we can start over there as well...
Can't keep churning coaches every two years.
You do if you hire the wrong person. Or when a coach like McAdoo loses the locker room, do you just say “well it’s only been two years so we need to keep him and see what happens!”
Every situation is different. Every coaching evaluation is different. Sometimes firing a coach every two years shows impatience. Sometimes it shows a flaw in your hiring process that resulted in hiring the wrong guy.
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that firing people every two years is bad business and is a staple of most of the shit franchises in the league?
You do if you hire the wrong person. Or when a coach like McAdoo loses the locker room, do you just say “well it’s only been two years so we need to keep him and see what happens!”
Every situation is different. Every coaching evaluation is different. Sometimes firing a coach every two years shows impatience. Sometimes it shows a flaw in your hiring process that resulted in hiring the wrong guy.
In that case, fix the top of the house first. Which IMO is what is needed.
You are missing my point. Would you have fired Shanahan after 2 years? How about Rhule, he’s getting paid way more and is 8-15. Should he be fired?
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You build a team to win. Maybe pre free agency you build for the future. Who are the long term projects that stay on losing teams these days. Who are these long term projects, you would assume they are the bottom of the roster guys, but he stacks the bottom of the roster with career special teamers. Other coaches you mentioned as starting off with losing records, at least have a skill set to fall back on. Whether they are good defensive or offensive minds. Having a coach that is neither does not help. I hear the Harbaugh comparison, but he actually has coaching in his bloodlines. He has a father to fall back on. Mentions he wants his linemen to be able to play multiple positions, heres an idea why don’t you have them excel at one first. There is nothing that shows this guy can bring a winner to the table, just a loud mouth without a football mind
You are missing my point. Would you have fired Shanahan after 2 years? How about Rhule, he’s getting paid way more and is 8-15. Should he be fired?
Can’t say I would or wouldn’t have? Don’t watch enough of SF or Carolina’s game or even follow them as much. Were they making bad decisions with challenges, afraid to go for it on 4th, had poor game plans week after week, did they not adjust at halftime? If the answers are all yes than I would have had them fired as well.
Any normal logical fan will understand this team's front 7 overall sucks as does it's OL. News flash: Tow players out of 7 playing pretty well is not good enough.
Add in the FACT their TE's are atrocious, their WR';s are always hurt, as is their star RB and their QB is definitely not elite--
but yeah let's blame Judge.
so judge is just a helpless victim of circumstance? judge had no hand in the roster currently assembled? injury prone engram shepard and slayton, so the giants go out and sign injury-prone golladay and injured kyle rudolph to bolster those position groups? and you suppose these decisions were forced on a helpless voiceless joe judge by the incompetent giants front office? give me a break.
judge is the HC of a team that started 1-7 last season, and 2-5 this season where his team gave away two very winnable games early on with a roster that was mostly healthy at the time. he's overseen one of the lowest-scoring offenses in the NFL and a defense that's regressed since '20 despite spending big dollars on free agents on both sides of the ball this past offseason.
judge has shown NOTHING in his giants tenure so far, let alone that he's some kind of competent program builder.
we were all hoping judge would be some wunderkid- the next john harbaugh but with the saban-belichick pedigree. so far he's just the latest NYG HC hire who has looked overmatched on sundays and loses a lot of games.
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Always said long term, really. So the plan all along was to be a crappy head coach in the interim. Just like extended pre-season. Someone else has started getting involved, because I see his pet project special teamer Jackson just got cut. Ebner a long term decision. Challenging plays that can’t be challenged long term. Sending FA signees into retirement because of your high school football coaching tactics long term? Guy is in over his head. One good move this guy made was hiring Sale.
Okay, fire him. Then hire some other young guy who starts 8-15 and then you can fire him too. That’s how the cycle never ends.
There's some merit to that, although it's not quite that simple, right?
Good, stable teams keep their head coaches for a long time. But part of why they're good, stable teams is because they have good head coaches. Simply keeping a coach past his expiration date doesn't guarantee success. It may provide stability and consistency, but not necessarily success.
The franchises that have long-term success with the same coach keep their coach because he's good. He's not good because they kept him.
It's a good obsession. We better be damn careful Judge isn't the right guy because this whole fire the HC every other year ain't working for me.
They all live here. In the real world it's not nearly as argumentative or combative or divisive. The internet, social media dynamic creates more shit stirring debates that don't reflect real how debating or discussions work in the real world. This has all been documented and discussed by plenty of social and psychology experts.
No one argues like this in the real world. Shit, I don't even know if I possess the same hard line NYG/NFL opinions in the real world, but here? Shit gets churned and echoed and people parse every word.....IT AINT REAL. Love this place...love every NYG fan here, even the loud mouths, like me, but it aint real. We all need to remember that. We rip each other apart here. In a bar, we'd be so much different because people act differently when face to face. More humane and tolerant.
Argumentatively you’re probably on more solid ground with Zac Taylor. Taylor looks like a much better coach with Burrow and especially Chase this year. So, that goes to Jones and the Giants horrible injuries I guess more than Judge. So it’s certainly fair to say that Judge doesn’t have a ton of talent on the Giants to work with.
But my point about Judge is that I haven’t seen any game planning or scheming or game day coaching that’s innovative or successful or frankly even apparent. I’m still asking, what’s Joe Judge good at? I don’t know. Maybe you can tell me?
Argumentatively you’re probably on more solid ground with Zac Taylor. Taylor looks like a much better coach with Burrow and especially Chase this year. So, that goes to Jones and the Giants horrible injuries I guess more than Judge. So it’s certainly fair to say that Judge doesn’t have a ton of talent on the Giants to work with.
But my point about Judge is that I haven’t seen any game planning or scheming or game day coaching that’s innovative or successful or frankly even apparent. I’m still asking, what’s Joe Judge good at? I don’t know. Maybe you can tell me?
I like his leadership thus far. I think the team plays hard for him. I thought he handled the Golden Tate issue very well last year.
He wasn’t a “scheme” hire, he was more of a CEO hire.
I believe Joe Judge has many of the same qualities and if Mara allows it, all levels of this operation can improve, grow, evolve and compete.
A new, rebuilt operation that competes immediately and can evolve and compete long term is the exception, not the norm. The perennial true contenders (NE, Bal, KC, Pitt, GB, NO, Seattle) have continuity and can evolve or weather storms. ie: poached coaches, injuries, QB transition, player or FO retirement
If you’re looking at time out usage, challenges, or going for it on 4th down and declaring Judge a failure already, well, your just a voice in the mob. Another angry ugly tweet.
You can’t enjoy the shade if you don’t water the seed and let it grow.
Exactly my point.
Emphasis mine. What insights do you have about the way the Giants currently view Joe Judge?
I'm not saying that you're wrong. Just that you added that part completely without substantiation.
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is still learning how to be a Head Coach. He’s never done it before, but I see good qualities in him, as do the Giants. I think he will get at least one more year to improve the team. My question is, does the GM get another year, Garrett? Things will most likely have to change after this season because, unless they win out?! Highly unlikely, you’re still looking at like a 6 possibly 7 win season, if lucky. I don’t think the fans could endure another post .500 season without playoffs next year and so changes are likely to come.
Emphasis mine. What insights do you have about the way the Giants currently view Joe Judge?
I'm not saying that you're wrong. Just that you added that part completely without substantiation.
This isn't a reflection of how they seem him now, I think im on the same page you are that we don't know how they view him either way right now, but they saw something to give him the longer contract initially.
And I just don’t think it is the case that being a successful NFL head coach is easy. If it were easy then guys like McAd’oh and Murmur would have been fine as long as they got a little more time to work on the basics. I don’t doubt that Judge has the sis boom bah to be a solid college or high school school. But when he’s matched up against a coach like McVay or Big Red or Hoodie does he have something more to earn a victory? Can Judge win a Super Bowl?
I know there’s more than one way to skin a cat underwater (and thank goodness because no one likes a wet cat) and I’m also not off of Joe Judge’s submarine just yet either. But, it’s getting late early and damn the torpedoes full speed ahead.
I can’t imagine that’s easily done with just talk. He clearly possesses some of the goods already and also appears to be a quick learner.
I can’t imagine that’s easily done with just talk. He clearly possesses some of the goods already and also appears to be a quick learner.
That’s fair. But I gotta say, I’ve seen plenty of unremarkable people ascend the ranks of my business. Anyway, we’re all hoping for the best.
n
Nonsense.
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In comment 15430935 Giants73 said:
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Always said long term, really. So the plan all along was to be a crappy head coach in the interim. Just like extended pre-season. Someone else has started getting involved, because I see his pet project special teamer Jackson just got cut. Ebner a long term decision. Challenging plays that can’t be challenged long term. Sending FA signees into retirement because of your high school football coaching tactics long term? Guy is in over his head. One good move this guy made was hiring Sale.
Okay, fire him. Then hire some other young guy who starts 8-15 and then you can fire him too. That’s how the cycle never ends.
There's some merit to that, although it's not quite that simple, right?
Good, stable teams keep their head coaches for a long time. But part of why they're good, stable teams is because they have good head coaches. Simply keeping a coach past his expiration date doesn't guarantee success. It may provide stability and consistency, but not necessarily success.
The franchises that have long-term success with the same coach keep their coach because he's good. He's not good because they kept him.
I like this.
How long did Marvin Lewis stay in Cincinnati past his expiration date?
But that said, if Mara does what he should do and completely turns over his front office to an outside voice(s)...that voice(s) should get to determine whether or not Judge, Graham, or anyone else stays. Not Mara.
If they say Judge goes, he goes. If they say he stays, then to me the slate on Judge is wiped completely clean and he and the new voice(s) are tied at the hip. They sink or swim together. No varying timelines, no competing agendas. It's about time this organization had all oars rowing in the same direction for once.
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What I think most Giant fans that complain about Judge don't want to admit is that they were either or some combo of a DG defender and/or expected this team to be better than the 6-7 preseason projection and now they now they feel betrayed and just looking to lash out.
Any normal logical fan will understand this team's front 7 overall sucks as does it's OL. News flash: Tow players out of 7 playing pretty well is not good enough.
Add in the FACT their TE's are atrocious, their WR';s are always hurt, as is their star RB and their QB is definitely not elite--
but yeah let's blame Judge.
so judge is just a helpless victim of circumstance? judge had no hand in the roster currently assembled? injury prone engram shepard and slayton, so the giants go out and sign injury-prone golladay and injured kyle rudolph to bolster those position groups? and you suppose these decisions were forced on a helpless voiceless joe judge by the incompetent giants front office? give me a break.
judge is the HC of a team that started 1-7 last season, and 2-5 this season where his team gave away two very winnable games early on with a roster that was mostly healthy at the time. he's overseen one of the lowest-scoring offenses in the NFL and a defense that's regressed since '20 despite spending big dollars on free agents on both sides of the ball this past offseason.
judge has shown NOTHING in his giants tenure so far, let alone that he's some kind of competent program builder.
we were all hoping judge would be some wunderkid- the next john harbaugh but with the saban-belichick pedigree. so far he's just the latest NYG HC hire who has looked overmatched on sundays and loses a lot of games.
1--- Who said he is completely blameless? If you thought I meant he is blameless, I didn't. Just the degree of blame he takes.
2-- Such as it seems like you trying to slam him because he is responsible for getting Golladay? It's near equal blame for a 2nd year coach that hasn't won shit getting a very highly priced FA vs The Owner? Vs the GM? Vs the scouting staff? Any coach, unless they are a also a GM, won't give two shits about a budget. SO does "GM Joe Judge" ALSO get blamed for not "Signing" Dak Prescott? If he is to get blamed for signing WR’s then why not the top FA’s QB’s too? Where does the line get drawn of “GM Joe Judge” vs “GM Dave Gettleman?”
3-- I agree with you 100% about looney posters thinking/expecting Judge is some kind of wunder-kid. The expectations and beliefs are out of touch with reality. Just like on this very thread some dude posted that he will be pissed from this point on that the Giants don’t win by seasons end 8 games. SO preseason Giants picked to win 6-7 games, and now with all the injures he’s saying they would win 8 at this point in the season?
The point is the nutjobs that think this is an 8 win team along with the nutjobs that held Judge to wunder-kid status have vastly over-hyped their team. With some there is no sense of reality and as a result – they feel a need to lash out. And imo most of these posters were probably some combination of DG defenders or extremely bias fans with little understanding of talent.
Heck, one poster started talking about Vince Lombardi. Who the fuck would compare a 1 year/2 year prior special teams coach now coach that lost a lot in year 1 with an expectation in year 2 to Vince Lombardi? A poster that has lost a touch of reality. And imo with some psoters commenting on Judge- this over-the-type type of psotings- it gets a bit prevalent sometimes.
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In comment 15431048 giantstock said:
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What I think most Giant fans that complain about Judge don't want to admit is that they were either or some combo of a DG defender and/or expected this team to be better than the 6-7 preseason projection and now they now they feel betrayed and just looking to lash out.
Any normal logical fan will understand this team's front 7 overall sucks as does it's OL. News flash: Tow players out of 7 playing pretty well is not good enough.
Add in the FACT their TE's are atrocious, their WR';s are always hurt, as is their star RB and their QB is definitely not elite--
but yeah let's blame Judge.
so judge is just a helpless victim of circumstance? judge had no hand in the roster currently assembled? injury prone engram shepard and slayton, so the giants go out and sign injury-prone golladay and injured kyle rudolph to bolster those position groups? and you suppose these decisions were forced on a helpless voiceless joe judge by the incompetent giants front office? give me a break.
judge is the HC of a team that started 1-7 last season, and 2-5 this season where his team gave away two very winnable games early on with a roster that was mostly healthy at the time. he's overseen one of the lowest-scoring offenses in the NFL and a defense that's regressed since '20 despite spending big dollars on free agents on both sides of the ball this past offseason.
judge has shown NOTHING in his giants tenure so far, let alone that he's some kind of competent program builder.
we were all hoping judge would be some wunderkid- the next john harbaugh but with the saban-belichick pedigree. so far he's just the latest NYG HC hire who has looked overmatched on sundays and loses a lot of games.
1--- Who said he is completely blameless? If you thought I meant he is blameless, I didn't. Just the degree of blame he takes.
2-- Such as it seems like you trying to slam him because he is responsible for getting Golladay? It's near equal blame for a 2nd year coach that hasn't won shit getting a very highly priced FA vs The Owner? Vs the GM? Vs the scouting staff? Any coach, unless they are a also a GM, won't give two shits about a budget. SO does "GM Joe Judge" ALSO get blamed for not "Signing" Dak Prescott? If he is to get blamed for signing WR’s then why not the top FA’s QB’s too? Where does the line get drawn of “GM Joe Judge” vs “GM Dave Gettleman?”
3-- I agree with you 100% about looney posters thinking/expecting Judge is some kind of wunder-kid. The expectations and beliefs are out of touch with reality. Just like on this very thread some dude posted that he will be pissed from this point on that the Giants don’t win by seasons end 8 games. SO preseason Giants picked to win 6-7 games, and now with all the injures he’s saying they would win 8 at this point in the season?
The point is the nutjobs that think this is an 8 win team along with the nutjobs that held Judge to wunder-kid status have vastly over-hyped their team. With some there is no sense of reality and as a result – they feel a need to lash out. And imo most of these posters were probably some combination of DG defenders or extremely bias fans with little understanding of talent.
Heck, one poster started talking about Vince Lombardi. Who the fuck would compare a 1 year/2 year prior special teams coach now coach that lost a lot in year 1 with an expectation in year 2 to Vince Lombardi? A poster that has lost a touch of reality. And imo with some psoters commenting on Judge- this over-the-type type of psotings- it gets a bit prevalent sometimes.
I thought 8 wins to start the year but backed off once injures to Martinez and Gates -to admitting season is sunk and we're gonna suck.
The other big problem is that the Giants still haven't gone all-in on a rebuild. Right?
Dave Gettleman said before preseason that he blundered by trying to win and rebuild at the same time. That's an admission that he has made some long-term mistakes that will probably impact this team long term.
Thus there is going to be a lot more bitching on here for an extra year or two than what should have otherwise been.