I’m seeing a categorical statement that there are no really good QBs coming out. I’d like posters to show a little bit of humility on this point.
After what we’ve seen from Jones in terms of field processing, pocket presence and timing, it’s become really clear that high level QBing that translates to the NFL is difficult to spot. It’s subtle and it requires skillful scouting to detect. In fact, real NFL scouts are constantly making erroneous projections after what I’m sure is extensive work and film viewing.
Two of the best NFL QBs ever, Joe Montana and Drew Brees, we’re physically ordinary and we’re in fact downgraded in the draft. Superb physical prototypes like Jeff George failed utterly.
So spare me any categorical statements about the upcoming class, even if you’ve watched several full college games. I’m not saying that there are or are not future greats in the coming class. I’m saying that after seeing Eli, Kerry Collins and Jones, we should know from experience that making the projection is REALLY HARD. (That’s what she said.)
and at the same time claiming that DJ is a bust??? Based only on your analysis?
Or Willis. Or Corral.
I agree that talent upgrades are needed everywhere. At least two quarterbacks (Corral and Willis) are clear talent upgrades over Jones.
It's clear by this point that Jones was not a first round talent - more of a day two or three guy. Corral and Willis are first round talents.
Or Willis. Or Corral.
I caught some of him last week. Looking forward to watching more.
mark my words
if there is a Mayfield/Murray/Burrow/Lawrence in this draft it's a near certainty they won't have a shot at them - so the odds say they are unlikely to be in a position where there's an obvious QB selection to anyone except the QB gurus on BBI.
An arm that can reach any part of the field; especially in windy or adverse conditions.
The ability to slide, move up in the pocket or move away from trouble while continuing to scan the field. Scanning the field allows a QB to either lead a WR getting open or to identify a WR that is being interfered with and throwing to that person so the referees clearly have to throw a flag. (Danny seems to lock onto a receiver right from the drop and if that receiver isn't open, makes a run for it.)
The ability to learn and recognize defenses so when a team disguises their D or when an impending blitz is coming; they can audible out or quickly get it to the hot read.
The ability to hang in there to make the best throw or to allow the D to get near so he can throw the perfect screen pass. We have typically had a lousy screen offense.
Finally, the ability to speed up the drive for those two minute or end of the game scenarios.
A lot of this comes from experience and we don't yet know what Danny will transform into as he plays more, has more protection and better weapons. He will either be a top of the line QB given his tools or just a career back-up who might be able to win you a game or two a season when the #1 is injured.
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can watch a guy like Kenny Pickett right now and not say he's as good as Jones at this point in college.
Or Willis. Or Corral.
I caught some of him last week. Looking forward to watching more.
Kenny Pickett is nowhere near as good as Jones. He is a 23 year old kid playing in a Mickey Mouse conference and never had exceptional numbers besides this year. Is he a good college QB? This year he certainly is. Is he a good NFL QB? Not sure where you get that from
Kenny Pickett is nowhere near as good as Jones. He is a 23 year old kid playing in a Mickey Mouse conference and never had exceptional numbers besides this year. Is he a good college QB? This year he certainly is. Is he a good NFL QB? Not sure where you get that from
Nowhere near as good. Now that's funny. Please stop confusing Jones with Elway at Stanford.
You don't think Clemson still has a high caliber defense? Let me answer that for you - they do. And Pickett lit them up for 300+, 2 TD/0 INT, a 90 QBR.
Did it ever occur to that the light finally went off for Pickett and now he gets it? Happened for Burrow...
A team this bereft of talent shouldn't be drafting for "need" anyway. They need to improve at virtually every position on the field.
If Jones isn't part of the solution, that especially needs to be addressed before he gets to be a very expensive "not the problem".
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Kenny Pickett is nowhere near as good as Jones. He is a 23 year old kid playing in a Mickey Mouse conference and never had exceptional numbers besides this year. Is he a good college QB? This year he certainly is. Is he a good NFL QB? Not sure where you get that from
Nowhere near as good. Now that's funny. Please stop confusing Jones with Elway at Stanford.
You don't think Clemson still has a high caliber defense? Let me answer that for you - they do. And Pickett lit them up for 300+, 2 TD/0 INT, a 90 QBR.
Did it ever occur to that the light finally went off for Pickett and now he gets it? Happened for Burrow...
it happened for Burrow.
and didn't happen for about 100 other QBs who have turned out to be busts.
Burrow's outcome is pretty unique and in large part due to the fact that the only reason he transferred in the first place was because he was stuck behind another QB good enough to break a bunch of records and get picked in the first round. Had he played earlier he likely would have succeeded earlier.
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Kenny Pickett is nowhere near as good as Jones. He is a 23 year old kid playing in a Mickey Mouse conference and never had exceptional numbers besides this year. Is he a good college QB? This year he certainly is. Is he a good NFL QB? Not sure where you get that from
Nowhere near as good. Now that's funny. Please stop confusing Jones with Elway at Stanford.
You don't think Clemson still has a high caliber defense? Let me answer that for you - they do. And Pickett lit them up for 300+, 2 TD/0 INT, a 90 QBR.
Did it ever occur to that the light finally went off for Pickett and now he gets it? Happened for Burrow...
Clemson is 4-3 and the QB from BC passed for 311 yards. The QB for NC State had 4 TD passes against Clemson defense. But, why let the facts get in the way of a good narrative.
Jones has played better this season, but your header actually says it all. Jones has to be more than "not the problem". He has to be a key factor in pulling this team out of the basement as he was chosen #6 overall three years ago to be that very guy.
Using the draft to fix each year's urgent need almost ensures the team will miss out on better value/better talent.
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In comment 15431491 bw in dc said:
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can watch a guy like Kenny Pickett right now and not say he's as good as Jones at this point in college.
Or Willis. Or Corral.
I caught some of him last week. Looking forward to watching more.
Kenny Pickett is nowhere near as good as Jones. He is a 23 year old kid playing in a Mickey Mouse conference and never had exceptional numbers besides this year. Is he a good college QB? This year he certainly is. Is he a good NFL QB? Not sure where you get that from
Was Jones even a "good" college qb???
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In comment 15431495 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15431491 bw in dc said:
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can watch a guy like Kenny Pickett right now and not say he's as good as Jones at this point in college.
Or Willis. Or Corral.
I caught some of him last week. Looking forward to watching more.
Kenny Pickett is nowhere near as good as Jones. He is a 23 year old kid playing in a Mickey Mouse conference and never had exceptional numbers besides this year. Is he a good college QB? This year he certainly is. Is he a good NFL QB? Not sure where you get that from
Was Jones even a "good" college qb???
Not particularly, no. If he'd had a different coach than Cutcliffe it's likely the Giants don't draft him. I looked at this a few months ago - Jones was the least productive college quarterback of every first rounder + every significant non-first rounder in the last ten years. Looking back at his resume and skillset it's actually pretty ridiculous he was drafted in the first round.
Pickett (or anyone else) can be a better prospect than "Not the Problem" and still not make sense in round one.
I completely agree with that sentiment. There's still football to be played, but right now I think Corral is in that category.
I expect Corral to end up going #1 overall, so it's unlikely to matter for us.
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In comment 15431503 Essex said:
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In comment 15431495 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15431491 bw in dc said:
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can watch a guy like Kenny Pickett right now and not say he's as good as Jones at this point in college.
Or Willis. Or Corral.
I caught some of him last week. Looking forward to watching more.
Kenny Pickett is nowhere near as good as Jones. He is a 23 year old kid playing in a Mickey Mouse conference and never had exceptional numbers besides this year. Is he a good college QB? This year he certainly is. Is he a good NFL QB? Not sure where you get that from
Was Jones even a "good" college qb???
Not particularly, no. If he'd had a different coach than Cutcliffe it's likely the Giants don't draft him. I looked at this a few months ago - Jones was the least productive college quarterback of every first rounder + every significant non-first rounder in the last ten years. Looking back at his resume and skillset it's actually pretty ridiculous he was drafted in the first round.
Pickett (or anyone else) can be a better prospect than "Not the Problem" and still not make sense in round one.
That's what I thought. But then again, it wasnt his fault at Duke either.
Kenny Pickett is nowhere near as good as Jones. He is a 23 year old kid playing in a Mickey Mouse conference and never had exceptional numbers besides this year. Is he a good college QB? This year he certainly is. Is he a good NFL QB? Not sure where you get that from
Was Jones even a "good" college qb???
No, but he didn't play in a "Mickey Mouse" conference.
Wait a minute, yes he did.
There was no proof of Jones's capability to even be a top shelf college player, yet the Giants drafted him 6th overall. Incredible.
Clemson is 4-3 and the QB from BC passed for 311 yards. The QB for NC State had 4 TD passes against Clemson defense. But, why let the facts get in the way of a good narrative.
BC scored 13 points against Clemson. That's the number between 12 and 14. NC State, who is very good, scored 27 points in 2 OTs. Seriously, coming to a gun fight with a butter knife isn't your best bet.
Here is more "narrative". Clemson has given up 14.6 PPG, 3rd in the country.
Always glad to help...
adamg : 3/17/2018 6:38 pm : link
25 Rosen
14.5 Darnold
8.5 Mayfield
4 Allen
3 Trade down/none
2 Jackson
1 Lauletta
RE: I like Webb
Go Terps : 3/17/2018 6:56 pm : link
In comment 13871430 BlueinRoch said:
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trade down/none for me.
Lamar Jackson
I didn't say he was. I'm saying he's a significantly better prospect than Jones, and worth drafting if we get a shot at him.
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In comment 15431528 OBJRoyal said:
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In comment 15431503 Essex said:
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In comment 15431495 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15431491 bw in dc said:
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can watch a guy like Kenny Pickett right now and not say he's as good as Jones at this point in college.
Or Willis. Or Corral.
I caught some of him last week. Looking forward to watching more.
Kenny Pickett is nowhere near as good as Jones. He is a 23 year old kid playing in a Mickey Mouse conference and never had exceptional numbers besides this year. Is he a good college QB? This year he certainly is. Is he a good NFL QB? Not sure where you get that from
Was Jones even a "good" college qb???
Not particularly, no. If he'd had a different coach than Cutcliffe it's likely the Giants don't draft him. I looked at this a few months ago - Jones was the least productive college quarterback of every first rounder + every significant non-first rounder in the last ten years. Looking back at his resume and skillset it's actually pretty ridiculous he was drafted in the first round.
Pickett (or anyone else) can be a better prospect than "Not the Problem" and still not make sense in round one.
That's what I thought. But then again, it wasnt his fault at Duke either.
you mean his fault that he led them to 2 of their 3 total bowl wins since 1961 in his last 2 years there?
There was no proof of Jones's capability to even be a top shelf college player, yet the Giants drafted him 6th overall. Incredible.
100% agree. The "it wasnt his fault at Duke" is something I've only heard on BBI. Its carried over to the NFL. At some point, the excuses need to stop
Or Willis. Or Corral.
Was Jones even a "good" college qb???
I would say Jones was a good college QB for Duke - sure. But there are a lot of good QBs in college. Whether that means they are a good or great NFL prospect, that's a different standard. And, IMV, Jones wasn't a great NFL prospect to warrant the 6th pick...
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can watch a guy like Kenny Pickett right now and not say he's as good as Jones at this point in college.
Or Willis. Or Corral.
It's college. Haskins & Tua film and production were incredible. I am not disagreeing with you btw. Just pointing out a small flaw in the argument. I watched Pickett after your recommendation. He has the skills I covet. He is elusive and create, Jones is fast, Picket the superior athlete. His arm is good from multiple angles. Call me intrigued. He might not get drafted in round one though but I do agree his college performance exceeds Jones in college.
Haskins and Tua's film, I thought, was highly questionable. You could see issues.
THIS!
100% this.
Thus far, he has not shown he can be that guy. One very good game against the Saints does not make him that guy. We need to have a definitive answer as to whether he can be that guy...and we need it this season.
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In comment 15431491 bw in dc said:
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can watch a guy like Kenny Pickett right now and not say he's as good as Jones at this point in college.
Or Willis. Or Corral.
It's college. Haskins & Tua film and production were incredible. I am not disagreeing with you btw. Just pointing out a small flaw in the argument. I watched Pickett after your recommendation. He has the skills I covet. He is elusive and create, Jones is fast, Picket the superior athlete. His arm is good from multiple angles. Call me intrigued. He might not get drafted in round one though but I do agree his college performance exceeds Jones in college.
Haskins and Tua's film, I thought, was highly questionable. You could see issues.
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Was Jones even a "good" college qb???
I would say Jones was a good college QB for Duke - sure. But there are a lot of good QBs in college. Whether that means they are a good or great NFL prospect, that's a different standard. And, IMV, Jones wasn't a great NFL prospect to warrant the 6th pick...
But Kenny Picket is. Hhahahahahahahhahahahahah
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can watch a guy like Kenny Pickett right now and not say he's as good as Jones at this point in college.
Or Willis. Or Corral.
It's college. Haskins & Tua film and production were incredible. I am not disagreeing with you btw. Just pointing out a small flaw in the argument. I watched Pickett after your recommendation. He has the skills I covet. He is elusive and create, Jones is fast, Picket the superior athlete. His arm is good from multiple angles. Call me intrigued. He might not get drafted in round one though but I do agree his college performance exceeds Jones in college.
That's fair. BTW, saw Kiper's updated big board this morning. He has Pickett his #1 QB, and the #15th overall pick.
Jones was on a bad football team and was always under pressure. His stat's in college will not compare to Dwayne Haskins. If I was a GM I would have someone break down the film for the QB prospects and have them throw out all plays that the QB was not pressured, throw them right in the trash. Then lets start comparing them from there.
Two things with Corral need to get cleaned up from what I've seen 1) decision making versus quality opponents and 2) he's buddies with Lane Kiffin, which strikes me as a character flaw, lol.
But Kenny Picket is. Hhahahahahahahhahahahahah
I get it. You don't like Pickett. Fine.
Because I think he's done that in 3 of the 5 games he's finished this year (that's not counting the Panthers win since they had the lead).
Two things with Corral need to get cleaned up from what I've seen 1) decision making versus quality opponents and 2) he's buddies with Lane Kiffin, which strikes me as a character flaw, lol.
I was down on both Haskins and Tua. Especially Haskins.
Corral is interesting. I just struggle with his body type. He's small in terms of height and he looks sort of scrawny. Remind me of Jake Plummer. But he's a gamer and actually can make a lot of throws. He'll have issues with a lot of flags from some conduct issues in high school...
I mean - which ever has the most non-Eli traits...that's the guy the NYG want!
Last year there was Lawrence who was considered as a potential franchise and some lesser prospects
Is there a Lawrence in this draft?
Drafting a QB is a crap shoot and the success rate for selecting QBs is quite low. I would not anticipate that there is a savior in the draft
Who out of last years draft would you want ?
Lawrence, Wilson, Fields, Jones, Lance,
I have been researching QBs in this draft and there are quite a few with draft able grades but none who would appear to be a sure thing
If it turns out that one or two of these prospects do separate themselves from the others, they will not likely be available when the Giants draft
So those of you who would draft a QB would you be willing to accept the third best QB ?
Or would you use the draft capital to move up and get the preferred QB ?
I cannot fathom coming out of this draft without a stud edge and a stud OL
So? Does that mean Sy can't express his opinions either now?
Because he was super-high on Rosen...
There was no proof of Jones's capability to even be a top shelf college player, yet the Giants drafted him 6th overall. Incredible.
Jones had essentially the same career that Lamar Jackson had in college. Do you think Lamar Jackson had a good college career?
And - you're a complete moron if you think there was "no proof" of Jones being a top shelf college player. He was a 1st round draft pick by every single stretch of the imagination. Did we pick him 10 slots early? Maybe. Who the fuck cares man. Get over it.
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QB is not even the 2nd or 3rd most urgent need in the upcoming draft. Want to throw the dice on a later round project QB? That's the only way I see giants picking one.
A team this bereft of talent shouldn't be drafting for "need" anyway. They need to improve at virtually every position on the field.
If Jones isn't part of the solution, that especially needs to be addressed before he gets to be a very expensive "not the problem".
There are almost always two or more players available on any row of a team's draft board. When one of them plays a position of more need you take him. Jones is not the problem and Giants will keep him at low or below avg cost for at least two more years while they address other issues.
Ironically enough, your boy Herbert was the guy Gettleman loved, he chose to stay in school. It happens.
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QB is not even the 2nd or 3rd most urgent need in the upcoming draft. Want to throw the dice on a later round project QB? That's the only way I see giants picking one.
Jones has played better this season, but your header actually says it all. Jones has to be more than "not the problem". He has to be a key factor in pulling this team out of the basement as he was chosen #6 overall three years ago to be that very guy.
Using the draft to fix each year's urgent need almost ensures the team will miss out on better value/better talent.
Jones will not be the first player to improve his play drastically when he is surrounded by a better team.
The fact that he may not carry a team for a full season season does not disqualify him from being part of a winning program.
You think that because Jones was taken at 6 instead of 17 or 20s or wherever, that it would drastically effect the way the team is currently. Nope. Jones would be the same player on the same trajectory, and he's on his way.
So - just because he didn't light the NFL on fire his first two seasons and we took him at 6, you've already called him a bust, you've already said he sucks, and that he's a bad QB.
Everyone else on earth is singing a different tune, so you can keep rolling with your Jones narrative and just shut the fuck up about it already.
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It wasn't his fault at Duke, but that's not a reason to draft him either.
There was no proof of Jones's capability to even be a top shelf college player, yet the Giants drafted him 6th overall. Incredible.
Jones had essentially the same career that Lamar Jackson had in college. Do you think Lamar Jackson had a good college career?
Are you serious?
Lamar Jackson college (3 years):
Passing - 9043 yards, 8.3 Y/A, 69 TDs, 27 INTs
Rushing - 4132 yards, 50 TDs
Daniel Jones college (3 years):
Passing - 8201 yards, 6.4 Y/A, 52 TDs, 29 INTs
Rushing - 1323 yards, 17 TDs
This is embarrassing, even for you.
I'll just leave this here:
Jones passing
Jackson passing
Jones rushing
Jackson rushing
Heisman voting:
Jackson - 1st place as a sophomore, 3rd place as a junior
Jones - Um...
Corral or Willis definitely aren't forcing it. I can't say I've seen enough of Pickett but it sounds like he wouldn't be forcing it either.
Jones benefited hugely from the Cutcliffe association, it's pretty simple.
Which is why he went over 20 picks ahead of him in the NFL draft. Which is why people still don't know if Jackson can actually throw the football once the weather gets to be 40 degrees or colder, and which is why his long term success in the NFL and ability to throw the ball will be questioned until he can actually prove otherwise, which he hasn't.
Willis and Corral are generally thought of as the two first round caliber QB's but both of them would likely have been in my tier with Lance and Fields. Willis has had some turnover issues this year and for someone of his talent you don't like to see games like he had against ULM. The mechanics also need to be cleaned up which is sometimes easier said than done. Corral has made strides this year, but still has some character issues and is hard for me to say that he reminds me of another QB who was successful. Russell Wilson did well as an undersized QB, but a far greater number have failed.
One of those stars aligned moments - right time, right player, right coach, right organization. Probably wouldn't have worked most other places.
Compare their pro cv ... and try again.
You're a nice guy, ryan, but you're blinded behind those blue-colored glasses most of the time.
On our way to what exactly? This isn't a stacked team who needed a game manager, but one who once again proved they could not compete.
jones does not look like to have made any strides to be a QB that can play in a high productive offense AND not turn the ball over. Door #2 is that or he could be low production and protect the ball. The hell are you going to do with that?
I contend no QB right now with a winning record is doing more with less than LJax.
And it isn't even close. NO PLAYER IN THE NFL carries a bigger burden for his team than LJax.
He's a top 10 QB and a top 10 RB. By nearly every metric.
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When you do you get Christian Ponder or Haskins or a Daniel Jones nine times out of 10 and that is not the odds you want on a 1st round pick.
Corral or Willis definitely aren't forcing it. I can't say I've seen enough of Pickett but it sounds like he wouldn't be forcing it either.
Not trying topick a fight but an honest question...
Do you think the level of competition Willis faces could be problematic on how to truly scout him?
Jones had essentially the same career that Lamar Jackson had in college. Do you think Lamar Jackson had a good college career?
You really should consider self-banning yourself with this. It's embarrassing.
Corral
Willis
Pickett
If there is a late riser with elite attributes then you have to consider it. I'm not saying that guy is evident yet, but you keep your eyes and options open
I edited the above.
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Jackson is a great fantasy QB. He has absolutely melted in the playoffs because he can't throw the ball. This isn't news. His accuracy is awful in cold weather. He can't throw the ball.
I contend no QB right now with a winning record is doing more with less than LJax.
And it isn't even close. NO PLAYER IN THE NFL carries a bigger burden for his team than LJax.
He's a top 10 QB and a top 10 RB. By nearly every metric.
There have been 2 Lamars this year.
Prime Time Lamar who has been awesome (his 3 Night games)
Sunday afternoon Lamar - where he has been just ok.
Maybe Baltimore can petition the NFL to play playoff night games haha
Corral
Willis
Pickett
Pickett's was crap prior to this year as a 5th year senior when his contemporaries prior to this year are now in NFL. Willis I would expect better for a Top QB playing bad teams. Corral has strong numbers and in theory the least risk, but there are character issues related to work ethic and it is hard for me to find another QB that makes me say he should succeed because that player before him succeeded.
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In comment 15431603 Walker Gillette said:
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When you do you get Christian Ponder or Haskins or a Daniel Jones nine times out of 10 and that is not the odds you want on a 1st round pick.
Corral or Willis definitely aren't forcing it. I can't say I've seen enough of Pickett but it sounds like he wouldn't be forcing it either.
Not trying topick a fight but an honest question...
Do you think the level of competition Willis faces could be problematic on how to truly scout him?
I don't know. We know his physical superiority isn't just based on the competition - he went to Auburn originally as a 3 star recruit. The arm strength and athleticism are plain to see...both are top shelf. With regards to his reads, instincts, anticipation - I imagine those will be issues early like they were with Allen out of Wyoming and are now with Lance out of ND State. Then it's on the coaches to ease the transition and tailor the offense to the strengths. You're drafting for the ceiling here.
I contend no QB right now with a winning record is doing more with less than LJax.
And it isn't even close. NO PLAYER IN THE NFL carries a bigger burden for his team than LJax.
He's a top 10 QB and a top 10 RB. By nearly every metric.
There have been 2 Lamars this year.
Prime Time Lamar who has been awesome (his 3 Night games)
Sunday afternoon Lamar - where he has been just ok.
Maybe Baltimore can petition the NFL to play playoff night games haha
He's really been sensational overall. He's lost his all pro LT after game one, all three starting RBs before the season started, his #1 draft choice WR from the '21 draft (until two weeks ago), and Nick Boyle (TE) is still out. Oh, and Zeitler is his RG... ;)
You think that because Jones was taken at 6 instead of 17 or 20s or wherever, that it would drastically effect the way the team is currently. Nope. Jones would be the same player on the same trajectory, and he's on his way.
You are missing the point.
The Giants took him at #6 because they believed he had Franchise QB value to him. Otherwise, they could have gone with other options to improve the roster elsewhere. So sets that expectation.
If you are suggesting Jones could have been chosen later and still played at his current trajectory, then he was completely overdrafted. And the Giants missed out on better players that could have helped more at #6.
He's really been sensational overall. He's lost his all pro LT after game one, all three starting RBs before the season started, his #1 draft choice WR from the '21 draft (until two weeks ago), and Nick Boyle (TE) is still out. Oh, and Zeitler is his RG... ;)
He's been good. But again, we cant make excuses for him when he doesnt play well cause of injuries cause then we can say the same thing about Jones and we dont need to go through that.
Watching him each week,
He has had 4 awesome games (Raiders, Colts, chiefs, and Denver) And he has had 3 so-so games (SD, Cincy, and Detroit).
Baltimore is just a weird, weird team. For a half they can look like the worst team in football and then the next half they can look like the best team. An interesting team to follow.
I don't know. We know his physical superiority isn't just based on the competition - he went to Auburn originally as a 3 star recruit. The arm strength and athleticism are plain to see...both are top shelf. With regards to his reads, instincts, anticipation - I imagine those will be issues early like they were with Allen out of Wyoming and are now with Lance out of ND State. Then it's on the coaches to ease the transition and tailor the offense to the strengths. You're drafting for the ceiling here.
Thanks. I just worry and have reservations about small school QBs being drafted so early. Very tough to project.
It's OK to try and miss. We saw that with Arizona. What's not OK is to try, miss, and chase the miss to justify it. That's what the Giants are doing and it is strangling them.
Good post-game when he recently threw 3 INTs against ULM. Good kid. Humble.
Willis Interview - ( New Window )
Which is why if we have 2 picks in the 7-20 range, you pick a stud Edge and stud OL and leave QB for the following year if needed. Build the nucleus of the team first - we already have skill positions. Focus on the OL and LB/Edge.
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available when we pick. But if you make the move --you have to be right. This tam cannot afford under any circumstances to blow a franchise altering decision like that.
It's OK to try and miss. We saw that with Arizona. What's not OK is to try, miss, and chase the miss to justify it. That's what the Giants are doing and it is strangling them.
People are so damned impatient anymore. The Cardinals spent a high first on a QB, then sucked bad enough to end up with the number 1 overall pick and drafted a QB the new regime liked more. So now that is somehow the “template” of what everyone does.
Your impatience isn’t anyone’s problem but your own. And please stop acting like one team doing something and it working is somehow the correct way of doing things.
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available when we pick. But if you make the move --you have to be right. This tam cannot afford under any circumstances to blow a franchise altering decision like that.
It's OK to try and miss. We saw that with Arizona. What's not OK is to try, miss, and chase the miss to justify it. That's what the Giants are doing and it is strangling them.
What is strangling the Giants is the flawed conception of how teams are built. This is not the 1970's. You don't win with a running game and a bunch of DB's. The rules are so slanted to the passing game that you need to excel in that area and getting after the opposing QB if you want to win. We have our expensive DB's playing soft against opponents so our DL can't possibly get to QB in time. We saw more aggressive play against Carolina and we held them to 3 points.
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available when we pick. But if you make the move --you have to be right. This tam cannot afford under any circumstances to blow a franchise altering decision like that.
It's OK to try and miss. We saw that with Arizona. What's not OK is to try, miss, and chase the miss to justify it. That's what the Giants are doing and it is strangling them.
You think that the QB play is what is "strangling" the Giants???
With what he has at WR for most games...and that excuse for an OL protecting him...and Mr 1 yard and a cloud of dust at RB...and for you, its the QB thats strangling the team???
You are nuts. End of story.
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In comment 15431659 UberAlias said:
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available when we pick. But if you make the move --you have to be right. This tam cannot afford under any circumstances to blow a franchise altering decision like that.
It's OK to try and miss. We saw that with Arizona. What's not OK is to try, miss, and chase the miss to justify it. That's what the Giants are doing and it is strangling them.
People are so damned impatient anymore. The Cardinals spent a high first on a QB, then sucked bad enough to end up with the number 1 overall pick and drafted a QB the new regime liked more. So now that is somehow the “template” of what everyone does.
Your impatience isn’t anyone’s problem but your own. And please stop acting like one team doing something and it working is somehow the correct way of doing things.
Imagine what would have happened if the Indianapolis Colts had moved on from Peyton Manning after his 3-13 rookie year where he threw more INT's than TD's and had 6.5 Y/A and an awful 5.2 AY/A
Arizona isn't the only example. The Giants and WFT both had a shot at Herbert after missing with Jones and Haskins. The Giants AGAIN had a shot at Justin Fields AND Mac Jones and passed. They'll likely have opportunities to draft a good QB prospect again in this upcoming draft. It's relatively easy to pivot off a mistake.
The Giants are 2-5 and have the 25th scoring offense in the league. What are we clinging to here?
What then are you hanging your hat on that makes him a "good QB" that we're all missing?
A lot of handicapping of team talent level, competition talent level has to go into its hard.
At least that's for a fan like me who may catch at most a couple college games a week, and when it comes to these comparisons needs to rely on stats. Pickett and Corral have great Y/A #s, but so did Will Grier, Drew Lock as a Junior - and their situations are roughly analogous in terms of team talent/competition level talent I think.
Not trying to take away anything from the arguments here - just generally agreeing with the notion behind the OP. Its a lot easier when you have #1 pick and Burrow is sitting there lol.
Arizona isn't the only example. The Giants and WFT both had a shot at Herbert after missing with Jones and Haskins. The Giants AGAIN had a shot at Justin Fields AND Mac Jones and passed. They'll likely have opportunities to draft a good QB prospect again in this upcoming draft. It's relatively easy to pivot off a mistake.
The Giants are 2-5 and have the 25th scoring offense in the league. What are we clinging to here?
You did not want Mac Jones prior to 2021 Draft. Justin Fields has looked like dogsh*t for Chicago. 2 TD's (3 less than Daniel Jones), 6 INT's (2 more than Jones), an AY/A of 4.5 which might be the lowest I have ever seen from a starting QB. It is not like he is showing much improvement either.
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available when we pick. But if you make the move --you have to be right. This tam cannot afford under any circumstances to blow a franchise altering decision like that.
It's OK to try and miss. We saw that with Arizona. What's not OK is to try, miss, and chase the miss to justify it. That's what the Giants are doing and it is strangling them.
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In comment 15431659 UberAlias said:
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available when we pick. But if you make the move --you have to be right. This tam cannot afford under any circumstances to blow a franchise altering decision like that.
It's OK to try and miss. We saw that with Arizona. What's not OK is to try, miss, and chase the miss to justify it. That's what the Giants are doing and it is strangling them.
What is strangling the Giants is the flawed conception of how teams are built. This is not the 1970's. You don't win with a running game and a bunch of DB's. The rules are so slanted to the passing game that you need to excel in that area and getting after the opposing QB if you want to win. We have our expensive DB's playing soft against opponents so our DL can't possibly get to QB in time. We saw more aggressive play against Carolina and we held them to 3 points.
Technically the Giants of the 80s and 2000s knew that on the defensive side. Don't understand how we lost that way of thinking where "You can never have too many pass rushers".
Because I think he's done that in 3 of the 5 games he's finished this year (that's not counting the Panthers win since they had the lead).
In 3 out of 5 games he has led go ahead drives? That is simply not correct or at the very least disingenuous. Let's take a closer look at the events in those games:
Game 1 Broncos - Giants never close to lead in second half. No go ahead drive here.
Game 2 WFT - Bradberry intercepted the ball late in that game. Jones and the offense did nothing with it gaining 3 total yards and kicked a FG to take the lead. And then lost. No credit here as there was no go-ahead drive really led by Jones/Offense.
Game 3 Falcons - Giants took a 14-7 lead with 13 minutes left on clock in 4QTR. And after Falcons tied it with plenty of time to go in the game, Jones/Offense did nothing with ball and punted it back. And then lost. No credit here for a late go-ahead drive.
Game 4 Saints - Great comeback by Jones/Offense. A lot of credit here to Jones/Offense.
Game 5 Cowboys - Giants blown out in second half. No go ahead drive here.
Game 6 Rams - Giants blown out. No go ahead drive here.
Game 7 Panthers - Giants winning whole time. No go ahead drive here.
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Impatient? 3 years of shitty quarterback play isn't enough for you?
Arizona isn't the only example. The Giants and WFT both had a shot at Herbert after missing with Jones and Haskins. The Giants AGAIN had a shot at Justin Fields AND Mac Jones and passed. They'll likely have opportunities to draft a good QB prospect again in this upcoming draft. It's relatively easy to pivot off a mistake.
The Giants are 2-5 and have the 25th scoring offense in the league. What are we clinging to here?
You did not want Mac Jones prior to 2021 Draft. Justin Fields has looked like dogsh*t for Chicago. 2 TD's (3 less than Daniel Jones), 6 INT's (2 more than Jones), an AY/A of 4.5 which might be the lowest I have ever seen from a starting QB. It is not like he is showing much improvement either.
I didn't want either guy. But that's not the point. The point is the Giants appear to be content with "Not the Problem". A pathetic standard.
2-5. 25th in scoring. Season basically over. And while discussing these QB prospects is more enjoyable than actually discussing or even watching current Giants games, I know it's likely an academic exercise. I expect Jones to be the QB next season and the season after that. And I expect the Giants to suck both those seasons.
"Not the problem."
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In comment 15431690 Go Terps said:
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Impatient? 3 years of shitty quarterback play isn't enough for you?
Arizona isn't the only example. The Giants and WFT both had a shot at Herbert after missing with Jones and Haskins. The Giants AGAIN had a shot at Justin Fields AND Mac Jones and passed. They'll likely have opportunities to draft a good QB prospect again in this upcoming draft. It's relatively easy to pivot off a mistake.
The Giants are 2-5 and have the 25th scoring offense in the league. What are we clinging to here?
You did not want Mac Jones prior to 2021 Draft. Justin Fields has looked like dogsh*t for Chicago. 2 TD's (3 less than Daniel Jones), 6 INT's (2 more than Jones), an AY/A of 4.5 which might be the lowest I have ever seen from a starting QB. It is not like he is showing much improvement either.
I didn't want either guy. But that's not the point. The point is the Giants appear to be content with "Not the Problem". A pathetic standard.
2-5. 25th in scoring. Season basically over. And while discussing these QB prospects is more enjoyable than actually discussing or even watching current Giants games, I know it's likely an academic exercise. I expect Jones to be the QB next season and the season after that. And I expect the Giants to suck both those seasons.
"Not the problem."
It is not so much of "not the problem" as no better option is available. Daniel Jones is not Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers, but the Giants don't want to waste a pick on someone worse rather than using the pick to trade down and get talent like Toney and a future #1 which can be used as capital to get into a spot to land a better QB.
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In comment 15431659 UberAlias said:
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available when we pick. But if you make the move --you have to be right. This tam cannot afford under any circumstances to blow a franchise altering decision like that.
It's OK to try and miss. We saw that with Arizona. What's not OK is to try, miss, and chase the miss to justify it. That's what the Giants are doing and it is strangling them.
I could buy that, except for the fact that Joe Judge didn't draft Jones. I highly doubt he is trying to justify DGs pick, at his own expense.
I don't think it was ever his call. Peter King said it himself before Judge was hired: "I don't think the Giants are hiring anyone that says 'Daniel Jones isn't the answer at QB.'"
My guess is Judge would love to move on from Jones and develop his own guy. But it's not his call.
Lets keep doing everything the same way, keep all the players, coaches, management and expect to start winning.
It is crazy.
I have been arguing with Terps and BW for over a year on Jones. I found every single metric that showed Jones in positive light.
There are not many.
The best one, is tight window throws down the field. It is is a shockingly small sample size. They added, Golloday, Ross, Toney, and Rudolph. Money and draft capital invested in Jones. he has until the end of this year to prove it.
Prove it shall be defined as:
Keeping the turnovers at his current acceptable level and the offense scoring more touchdowns. Deep passes or inside the red zone, I don't care. Scores TDs.
If he doesn't do that the Giants should draft or sign a new QB.
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In comment 15431669 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15431659 UberAlias said:
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available when we pick. But if you make the move --you have to be right. This tam cannot afford under any circumstances to blow a franchise altering decision like that.
It's OK to try and miss. We saw that with Arizona. What's not OK is to try, miss, and chase the miss to justify it. That's what the Giants are doing and it is strangling them.
I could buy that, except for the fact that Joe Judge didn't draft Jones. I highly doubt he is trying to justify DGs pick, at his own expense.
I don't think it was ever his call. Peter King said it himself before Judge was hired: "I don't think the Giants are hiring anyone that says 'Daniel Jones isn't the answer at QB.'"
My guess is Judge would love to move on from Jones and develop his own guy. But it's not his call.
And you're in your usual depth if you believe stats are the only reason why someone might favor a prospect over Daniel Jones.
1. Judge does not want to replace Jones and believes in him.
2. Giants will have a good 2nd half of the season and will not be picking in the top 10.
I don't think it was ever his call. Peter King said it himself before Judge was hired: "I don't think the Giants are hiring anyone that says 'Daniel Jones isn't the answer at QB.'"
Mara tends to do that. No doubt in my mind a key reason why he hired Gettleman and Shurmur was because the were willing to hitch their wagon to Eli.
As far as Judge goes, he either has no idea what QB he wants because he has no real offense in mind. But I'd bet anything him and Garrett would be jumping out of their seats at the opportunity to jettison Jones.
Because we have people on this message board who are rooting for the Giants to lose games.
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can understand that Jones IS our QB. He’s not going anywhere
Because we have people on this message board who are rooting for the Giants to lose games.
Again I pose the question again and still waiting for an answer...what is the point of being a 6 win team again whose season is basically over (again)?
As far as Judge goes, he either has no idea what QB he wants because he has no real offense in mind. But I'd bet anything him and Garrett would be jumping out of their seats at the opportunity to jettison Jones.
I think Judge wants to jettison Garrett, no inside info but he doesn't need a big brother there anymore with HC experience. Lets get a better playcaller there.
As far as Judge goes, he either has no idea what QB he wants because he has no real offense in mind. But I'd bet anything him and Garrett would be jumping out of their seats at the opportunity to jettison Jones.
Nobody is saying Daniel Jones is Peyton Manning. Your dupe is saying that we should have jettisoned Jones after his rookie year and drafted Herbert. I am merely pointing out that there were other rookie QB's who struggled and went on to have great careers. Not to mention that Herbert was not as highly touted as Murray.
1. Judge does not want to replace Jones and believes in him.
2. Giants will have a good 2nd half of the season and will not be picking in the top 10.
Do you think Judge believes Jones can win playoff games or that he's merely the best option readily available for the next couple of years?
In scenarios #3 and #4 the team will not stick with Jones just to justify the pick because the guy who drafted him was let go. I also happen to see #1 as the most likely outcome of things.
In scenario #2 they could possibly stick with Jones to justify the pick, because DG would still be here. But I find this scenario very unlikely. If DG is extended, it is far more likely that Jones is also kept (option 1).
The only realistic option I see where they have any motivation to hard headedly stick with Jones to justify the pick is #1. But this options requires them having enough belief in DG where its not just a matter of not firing him, they have to actually EXTEND him. If Jones is as bad as you say, this team is going to continue to lose this season. That's a mountain of losing for a guy you not only extend but also force his QB on a head coach who is losing games and telling you the QB is a big reason for it.
To me, this is far less likely than an outcome where a) either Judge who has no predisposition to Jones really does approve of Jones or b) DG is fired, where there is no further motivation to justify the selection because they who drafted him was moved on from.
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So Daniel Jones is Peyton Manning now? Like WTF .. the ridiculous analogies here to QBs is enough to drive you nuts. Jones isn't a rookie. i don't want to look up his numbers. He was also playing pre '04 rule changes.
As far as Judge goes, he either has no idea what QB he wants because he has no real offense in mind. But I'd bet anything him and Garrett would be jumping out of their seats at the opportunity to jettison Jones.
I think Judge wants to jettison Garrett, no inside info but he doesn't need a big brother there anymore with HC experience. Lets get a better playcaller there.
I don't think he wanted Garrett from Day 1 and really wanted Kitchens. Garrett has ties to Nick Saban and Nick probably told Judge don't worry Garrett will be fine.
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So Daniel Jones is Peyton Manning now? Like WTF .. the ridiculous analogies here to QBs is enough to drive you nuts. Jones isn't a rookie. i don't want to look up his numbers. He was also playing pre '04 rule changes.
As far as Judge goes, he either has no idea what QB he wants because he has no real offense in mind. But I'd bet anything him and Garrett would be jumping out of their seats at the opportunity to jettison Jones.
I think Judge wants to jettison Garrett, no inside info but he doesn't need a big brother there anymore with HC experience. Lets get a better playcaller there.
You must be in dreamland if you think Judge would not be totally lost and out coached every game without Garrett there.
Further you must be the retain Jones. What are holding on to?? He is not like an Eli where you are on the hook for 20 mil so why not make the most of him even though you have your doubts you could still win with him.
Completely ridiculous to base a rebuild around someone who is as big a liability as Jones with this team not winning any games and not scoring.
Who blocks for them since you wouldn't have Thomas?
So after he lost Toomer and then Petitgout, the Giants went 2-6. I'm sure, 100% sure the injuries had nothing to do with this slide. Also sure many of you wanted him out of the Giants at that point. Jones doesn't have ANYONE healthy! You have to be real with that.
Corral probably top rated but size and decision making a concern. He will never last in NFL running like he does in college. He needs to look to avoid contact in NFL . He has a good arm and good release.
Willis probably second right now but I must admit I have not seen him play. My question about Willis is why couldn’t he beat out Nix at Auburn. Did he not get a fair chance?
Pickett is the QB I have watched a lot this year. A good arm and good release. Having a sensational 5th year and a fast riser in the draft.
Howell is having a mediocre year and has been a disappointment. Not sure what is going on with Howell. It maybe that he needs elite talent around him to succeed. At least that has been mentioned when discussing Howell.
I do not like Slovis at USC. I don’t think he has an NFL arm.
I need to watch Strong play also. Have not watched any of his games but hear he has a strong arm.
Question is are any of these guys a top 5 pick. I don’t think so at this time but a lot of time before next draft to evaluate these guys.
This whole "see hole, plug hole" with your #1 pick drives me nuts.
I would have just let Eli Manning play in 2019 since he was paid for already, and not drafted Jones and used the picks elsewhere.
And similarly if no QB makes the grade in 2022, I would just leave Jones at QB since he is paid for already and use the picks elsewhere.
So after he lost Toomer and then Petitgout, the Giants went 2-6. I'm sure, 100% sure the injuries had nothing to do with this slide. Also sure many of you wanted him out of the Giants at that point. Jones doesn't have ANYONE healthy! You have to be real with that.
Yea and sure so I guess that means next year instead of Jones getting shown the door he is going to play Tom Brady and the Bucs this time and throw a game winning TD off the top of Shep's helmet right at the Super bowl?
Go watch that clip of Eli
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and kept both.
Who blocks for them since you wouldn't have Thomas?
If we had Herbert we would be set at the position for 15 years. It's the toughest position to fill and has the greatest impact on team success. Look at what Burrow/Herbert have accomplished in less than a season and a half. Look at what Murray has accomplished. They are game changers. And don't tell me the Giants were worse off than the Bengals, Cardinals, and Chargers when those respective QBs were drafted. We all thought those teams were a joke and that we were ahead of them.
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Following this winning streak, key injuries including one to wide receiver Amani Toomer pushed Manning and the Giants into a downward slide.[102] Playing against the Chicago Bears, Manning started well, but the Giants' offense was derailed by the loss of left tackle Luke Petitgout to a broken leg.[103] Manning was held to only 141 yards passing with two interceptions. Petitgout's loss left a gaping hole at the crucial left tackle position, and Manning was unable to repeat his first-half success.[104][105] Manning struggled the next week against the Jacksonville Jaguars[106] and the week after that, a costly interception helped to culminate a huge collapse on the road against the Tennessee Titans, with the Giants seeing a 21-point fourth quarter lead simply evaporate.[107] Manning improved the following week, throwing for 270 yards and two touchdowns against the Dallas Cowboys, but the Giants lost 23–20.[108] Finally regaining momentum, Manning threw three touchdowns in a win on the road against the Carolina Panthers,[109] but then he stumbled badly in the final three games. He threw two interceptions against the Philadelphia Eagles and tallied only 73 passing yards in a game against the New Orleans Saints.[110] Although the Giants battled back to 8–8 the following week on the road against the Washington Redskins, Manning completed only 12 of 26 passes for 101 yards and one touchdown.[111] The Giants qualified for the postseason as the #6-seed and met the Philadelphia Eagles.[112]
So after he lost Toomer and then Petitgout, the Giants went 2-6. I'm sure, 100% sure the injuries had nothing to do with this slide. Also sure many of you wanted him out of the Giants at that point. Jones doesn't have ANYONE healthy! You have to be real with that.
Yea and sure so I guess that means next year instead of Jones getting shown the door he is going to play Tom Brady and the Bucs this time and throw a game winning TD off the top of Shep's helmet right at the Super bowl?
Go watch that clip of Eli
Dude, I can only imagine how bad you wanted Eli off the Giants. Thank goodness you weren't on BBI back then.
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and kept both.
I would have just let Eli Manning play in 2019 since he was paid for already, and not drafted Jones and used the picks elsewhere.
And similarly if no QB makes the grade in 2022, I would just leave Jones at QB since he is paid for already and use the picks elsewhere.
That is a fair enough argument. Probably what I would have done too especially if you thought Herbert would have been your guy if he declared. I would have taken Josh Allen (the pass rusher) at 6.
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and kept both.
I would have just let Eli Manning play in 2019 since he was paid for already, and not drafted Jones and used the picks elsewhere.
And similarly if no QB makes the grade in 2022, I would just leave Jones at QB since he is paid for already and use the picks elsewhere.
100% with you chick. I hated drafting Jones when we had Eli, draft a passrusher! Lets give Eli a shot!
Dude, I can only imagine how bad you wanted Eli off the Giants. Thank goodness you weren't on BBI back then.
Always loved Eli except maybe first few games.
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Dude, I can only imagine how bad you wanted Eli off the Giants. Thank goodness you weren't on BBI back then.
Always loved Eli except maybe first few games.
Fuck that you dipshit, when he lost Petitgout and Toomer, that dude went 2-6! Doesn't he know QBs are supposed to ELEVATE the talent around him? We should have cut that fool and drafted someone better because we know there's someone better in the draft
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Dude, I can only imagine how bad you wanted Eli off the Giants. Thank goodness you weren't on BBI back then.
Always loved Eli except maybe first few games.
Fuck that you dipshit, when he lost Petitgout and Toomer, that dude went 2-6! Doesn't he know QBs are supposed to ELEVATE the talent around him? We should have cut that fool and drafted someone better because we know there's someone better in the draft
How dare we pass on Brady Quinn for Aaron Ross!
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In comment 15431735 Producer said:
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and kept both.
I would have just let Eli Manning play in 2019 since he was paid for already, and not drafted Jones and used the picks elsewhere.
And similarly if no QB makes the grade in 2022, I would just leave Jones at QB since he is paid for already and use the picks elsewhere.
That is a fair enough argument. Probably what I would have done too especially if you thought Herbert would have been your guy if he declared. I would have taken Josh Allen (the pass rusher) at 6.
Not sure how the college QB scene will shake out until after the combine next year, but it will be unfortunate if nobody does make the grade. A few talented guys but not sure they are slam dunk first round guys. TBD.
We had two 1st round picks in 2019 and Kyler Murray was the only top prospect. Now we have 2 first round picks again in 2022 and possibly no QB to use them on.
Simply cannot bypass top of the line guys at OL, ER or whatever to pull a QB up undeservedly.
This whole "see hole, plug hole" with your #1 pick drives me nuts.
Who would have manned the LT spot in the meantime?
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and you look for the LT in '21 or '22.
This whole "see hole, plug hole" with your #1 pick drives me nuts.
Who would have manned the LT spot in the meantime?
What kind of rationale is that?
If the Chargers called today and offered Herbert for Jones and Thomas, you wouldn't take that deal?
Then you have Pickett and Strong are they top 10 picks? Why not?
Maybe you get a Howell who goes rd 3?
I mean there is a chance someone develops but none of it makes me feel like, that's the guy. At least not yet.
This thing you have with Herbert is borderline obsessive at this point. Get over it man. He plays for another team.
This thing you have with Herbert is borderline obsessive at this point. Get over it man. He plays for another team.
If Jones is our quarterback that is very damning of the organization. I will say that what Jones is signed for we don't have to force a QB in 2022 although if there is someone we see as better than Jones available then you most definitely pull the trigger.
The hype over Justin Fields was ridiculous. The fact some in this thread want to spout "well Judge had this guy available and they didn't take him" nonsense when, 1) how do you know? You don't know how little or big of studying they've put into those 1st rd picks and 2) the Giants had issues all over in including WR despite adding Golladay. Toney is a potential #1 and they landed another 1st which may very well be top ten. And we're knocking that? Over the 2021 class which had numerous holes? The draft is a damn dart board. None of them were coming in and lighting it up with this OL and receiver lineup that's in and out with injuries.
If the Chargers called today and offered Herbert for Jones and Thomas, you wouldn't take that deal?
Probably not to be honest. I'd rather have the trenches set, which I see Thomas as being a big part of going forward. If Jones proves to not be the guy over the course of his rookie deal then move on. In the meantime, build the trenches, get other pieces in place, and if need be, go get the QB after Jones's 4th/5th year.
This whole "see hole, plug hole" with your #1 pick drives me nuts.
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and you look for the LT in '21 or '22.
This whole "see hole, plug hole" with your #1 pick drives me nuts.
Herbert probably would have been the Giants pick had he gone into the draft after his Junior season. He didn't, so the Giants went a different direction. The coach and the GM see DJ everyday, and they saw enough in him they didn't believe they needed to draft another QB the following year. Consequently, Herbert is not the Giants QB; time to get over it.
I'll say it again, Judge believes in Jones imo. Unless Jones has a meltdown this year, they aren't moving on.
Didn't you just tell people what they should do lol? Pot calling kettle?
You told people to stay off threads, why? We will all do as we please, just like you said you would.
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and you look for the LT in '21 or '22.
This whole "see hole, plug hole" with your #1 pick drives me nuts.
Herbert probably would have been the Giants pick had he gone into the draft after his Junior season. He didn't, so the Giants went a different direction. The coach and the GM see DJ everyday, and they saw enough in him they didn't believe they needed to draft another QB the following year. Consequently, Herbert is not the Giants QB; time to get over it.
There's a big difference between preferring JH over DJ before you draft either one of them vs. preferring JH over DJ after you already spent a top-10 pick on DJ.
The sunk cost wasn't sunk. It still isn't sunk; that's kind of the nature of the Giants' approach to the draft (it's cute that anyone ever thinks they're purely BPA, when they're clearly not).
Had they skipped DJ in 2019, they almost definitely would have taken JH in 2020, if we're believing the supposed high grades they had on him in 2019 when he didn't declare.
That said, we probably would have taken Josh Allen (the edge, not the QB) in 2019, which would mean that we'd still be without a bonafide OLT right now. So it begs the question: would you rather have Herbert and Allen, or Jones and Thomas?
I'd prefer Herbert over Jones without question. But I really would prefer Thomas over Allen, so it's not totally a no-brainer, IMO.
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of the Giants should've done something else, eg not drafted Jones, etc, you should probably avoid the threads. They're not going away and cheerleading won't change those minds either.
I doubt five consecutive super bowl victories would change the minds of the big three. Shocking how much time and energy they can devote to being unhappy.
Are they wrong? We are one of the worst teams in the NFL for the past half-decade. Why that's worthy of praise is beyond me.
If he faces one ceiling Jake Fromm
Willis- really this is a joke right, reminds me of the hype over that kid from Buffalo a few years back
Corral - can you say Manziel
Slovis - just horrible another USC disaster
Howell- don’t mind him seems like a Minishew
Ratler- probably will have best combine. But lacks the mental capaibilty
Hartman - unknown but I can see him surge as the season goes on, doing well at Wake
King- no
Arizona isn't the only example. The Giants and WFT both had a shot at Herbert after missing with Jones and Haskins. The Giants AGAIN had a shot at Justin Fields AND Mac Jones and passed. They'll likely have opportunities to draft a good QB prospect again in this upcoming draft. It's relatively easy to pivot off a mistake.
The Giants are 2-5 and have the 25th scoring offense in the league. What are we clinging to here?
Herbert having a good rookie season has completely caused a shit ton of revisionist thinking. Nobody was pounding the table for Herbert last season and not one single person thought that the Giants would move off of Jones after his rookie season. Not one. But Herbert shows that he’s the goods and now you kill the Giants for not taking him. Herbert didn’t even go top 5 so apparently plenty of teams were skeptical. Yet the Giants are now idiots for not drafting him. You’re completely clueless on how the real world works. There was a ZERO percent chance they were drafting a QB that high after taking Jones the previous season.
And they don’t give a shit what what GoTerps thinks about Jones. Or that he thinks they should just continue to draft every QB prospect in the draft because he doesn’t like Jones.
If he faces one ceiling Jake Fromm
Willis- really this is a joke right, reminds me of the hype over that kid from Buffalo a few years back
Corral - can you say Manziel
Slovis - just horrible another USC disaster
Howell- don’t mind him seems like a Minishew
Ratler- probably will have best combine. But lacks the mental capaibilty
Hartman - unknown but I can see him surge as the season goes on, doing well at Wake
King- no
What about Ridder or Strong? Would have liked to have seen how Jurkovec (QB for Boston College) progressed this year, but unfortunately got hurt early on and was done for the year.
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Pickett - was mediocre every year, playing with a line full of 5th year seniors and two WRs that extended do to covid. And he is putting up good stats. Unimpressive QB overall. Let’s see how he does against a real tea
If he faces one ceiling Jake Fromm
Willis- really this is a joke right, reminds me of the hype over that kid from Buffalo a few years back
Corral - can you say Manziel
Slovis - just horrible another USC disaster
Howell- don’t mind him seems like a Minishew
Ratler- probably will have best combine. But lacks the mental capaibilty
Hartman - unknown but I can see him surge as the season goes on, doing well at Wake
King- no
What about Ridder or Strong? Would have liked to have seen how Jurkovec (QB for Boston College) progressed this year, but unfortunately got hurt early on and was done for the year.
I haven't seen enough of Corral, but I like Ridder. the Cinci RB also looks like an NFL player. I have no idea where he'll get drafted but I like his game.
For the uninformed, Pitt just steamrolled Clemson, who have the 3rd rated defense in PPG allowed at 14.6.
So what if the lights finally went on for Pickett? Can you name one of his OL, WRs, or RBs?
Joe Burrow did nothing noteworthy at LSU until his last year. And when he popped he was throwing to Chase, Jefferson, Winslow, etc. And handing the ball off to Edwards-Helaire.
Oh, and 14 total LSU players were drafted in 2020.
But let's talk about all the wonderful assets Pickett has in his 5th year...JFC.
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Pickett - was mediocre every year, playing with a line full of 5th year seniors and two WRs that extended do to covid. And he is putting up good stats. Unimpressive QB overall. Let’s see how he does against a real tea
For the uninformed, Pitt just steamrolled Clemson, who have the 3rd rated defense in PPG allowed at 14.6.
So what if the lights finally went on for Pickett? Can you name one of his OL, WRs, or RBs?
Joe Burrow did nothing noteworthy at LSU until his last year. And when he popped he was throwing to Chase, Jefferson, Winslow, etc. And handing the ball off to Edwards-Helaire.
Oh, and 14 total LSU players were drafted in 2020.
But let's talk about all the wonderful assets Pickett has in his 5th year...JFC.
Burrow was a much more highly touted recruit than Pickett and his Junior year was better than anything Pickett had done prior to this year after not playing much in prior two years so it is not a great comparison.
Again, not a big supporter and include me in the group that thought he was overdrafted and the team would have been much better off drafting Josh Allen the pass rusher and maybe Jones at 17 or Josh Allen instead of Barkley or best case, drafting Herbert and trading Jones. I am totally convinced that Herbert would have succeeded with this crap OL and fairly convinced that Josh Allen would have also. Still, saying something like Jones better do it this year or else is ignoring that he’s no Herbert or Allen but forget about fairness, it’s not smart or useful to evaluate Jones behind this garbage.
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In comment 15431743 JonC said:
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and you look for the LT in '21 or '22.
This whole "see hole, plug hole" with your #1 pick drives me nuts.
Herbert probably would have been the Giants pick had he gone into the draft after his Junior season. He didn't, so the Giants went a different direction. The coach and the GM see DJ everyday, and they saw enough in him they didn't believe they needed to draft another QB the following year. Consequently, Herbert is not the Giants QB; time to get over it.
There's a big difference between preferring JH over DJ before you draft either one of them vs. preferring JH over DJ after you already spent a top-10 pick on DJ.
Burrow was a much more highly touted recruit than Pickett and his Junior year was better than anything Pickett had done prior to this year after not playing much in prior two years so it is not a great comparison.
I'm not talking about their recruiting status out of high school.
Burrow completed 57% of his passes his junior year for 16TDs and 5 INTs. And Chase, Jefferson, Helaire, Marshall, etc were there as weapons.
Pickett's top WR is a true sophomore - Jordan Addison.
It's just a general point to consider that sometimes things finally click and that shouldn't be a red flag. IMV.
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In comment 15431819 Beer Man said:
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In comment 15431743 JonC said:
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and you look for the LT in '21 or '22.
This whole "see hole, plug hole" with your #1 pick drives me nuts.
Herbert probably would have been the Giants pick had he gone into the draft after his Junior season. He didn't, so the Giants went a different direction. The coach and the GM see DJ everyday, and they saw enough in him they didn't believe they needed to draft another QB the following year. Consequently, Herbert is not the Giants QB; time to get over it.
There's a big difference between preferring JH over DJ before you draft either one of them vs. preferring JH over DJ after you already spent a top-10 pick on DJ.
I'm not sure what the point is. DG personally scouted JH during his junior season. The speculation was that DG was going all in on JH that year. But JH decided to return to school and so the Giants went with DJ. You don't hold back on a guy you like to gamble that someone you like better may still be on the board when you draft the following year.
Of course you hold back drafting an inferior prospect if you value an elite prospect the next year. This isn't running back. It's QB. This is the choice that makes or breaks your franchise.
That's not true -- a few mentioned that we should explore the possibility. The search isn't ideal here, for sure, but it still took me just a few seconds to find this thread.
Should we draft Herbert and listen to offers? - ( New Window )
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Nobody was pounding the table for Herbert last season and not one single person thought that the Giants would move off of Jones after his rookie season. Not one.
That's not true -- a few mentioned that we should explore the possibility. The search isn't ideal here, for sure, but it still took me just a few seconds to find this thread. Should we draft Herbert and listen to offers? - ( New Window )
Good link and read.
Jersey guy with a bit of surf punk look...
But Pickett grew up an hour south of MetLife. So that may offset the unkempt look...
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In comment 15431839 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15431819 Beer Man said:
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In comment 15431743 JonC said:
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and you look for the LT in '21 or '22.
This whole "see hole, plug hole" with your #1 pick drives me nuts.
Herbert probably would have been the Giants pick had he gone into the draft after his Junior season. He didn't, so the Giants went a different direction. The coach and the GM see DJ everyday, and they saw enough in him they didn't believe they needed to draft another QB the following year. Consequently, Herbert is not the Giants QB; time to get over it.
There's a big difference between preferring JH over DJ before you draft either one of them vs. preferring JH over DJ after you already spent a top-10 pick on DJ.
I'm not sure what the point is. DG personally scouted JH during his junior season. The speculation was that DG was going all in on JH that year. But JH decided to return to school and so the Giants went with DJ. You don't hold back on a guy you like to gamble that someone you like better may still be on the board when you draft the following year.
Of course you hold back drafting an inferior prospect if you value an elite prospect the next year. This isn't running back. It's QB. This is the choice that makes or breaks your franchise.
Well put. JonC typically does a nice job of keeping it real on these threads...
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Nobody was pounding the table for Herbert last season and not one single person thought that the Giants would move off of Jones after his rookie season. Not one.
That's not true -- a few mentioned that we should explore the possibility. The search isn't ideal here, for sure, but it still took me just a few seconds to find this thread. Should we draft Herbert and listen to offers? - ( New Window )
Nice find! So I guess I was off. ONE poster was adamant about his feelings for drafting Herbert, JonC. Great job by him. I seen some lukewarm praise of Herbert from others and the possibility they MAY be open to the idea but certainly not the conviction we see now. The after the fact outrage is ludicrous and that thread pretty much confirms my point. I was off by one.
JonC nailed it. Great job by him on that thread.
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Nobody was pounding the table for Herbert last season and not one single person thought that the Giants would move off of Jones after his rookie season. Not one.
That's not true -- a few mentioned that we should explore the possibility. The search isn't ideal here, for sure, but it still took me just a few seconds to find this thread. Should we draft Herbert and listen to offers? - ( New Window )
JonC : 1/27/2020 10:22 am : link
and trade Jones.
JonC : 1/27/2020 10:33 am : link
I like Jones, and hope I'm wrong, but I'm not so sure he's the QB to lead us to championships. His current red flags need a ton of work, and some of it looks like passer instincts he doesn't have. I think DG/Shurmur/NYG overreacted (again) and reached for him based on the Cutcliffe/Eli factor rather than his actual NFL upside. Shurmur was apparently the catalyst for the pick, and he was already feeling job pressure. After the Jones pick I even said I expected Shurmur to be gone in 2019, and then what? Here we are now.
BBS,
1. I clicked respond on your post and walked away for a minute, so I didn't see your second post until after I sent mine.
2. I actually did not mean to try and refute what you said or anything like that, merely compliment Jon on a good call.
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Read the post above yours. I acknowledged JonC.
BBS,
1. I clicked respond on your post and walked away for a minute, so I didn't see your second post until after I sent mine.
2. I actually did not mean to try and refute what you said or anything like that, merely compliment Jon on a good call.
Yeah I know. It’s all good.
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Nobody was pounding the table for Herbert last season and not one single person thought that the Giants would move off of Jones after his rookie season. Not one.
That's not true -- a few mentioned that we should explore the possibility. The search isn't ideal here, for sure, but it still took me just a few seconds to find this thread. Should we draft Herbert and listen to offers? - ( New Window )
Great thread from the archives! Couple of posts I copied from that thread below that I enjoyed reading again. Almost 2 years ago and still reads like it was yesterday as to what was going on.
Oh, and I kept the names the same to protect the innocent...
:-)
Jimmy Googs : 1/27/2020 5:32 pm : link
In comment 14795680 Giants38 said:
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In comment 14795439 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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it. What the fuck does this have to do with anything?
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Show me what Gettleman has done that lets you know he unequivocally deserves to the GM of this franchise moving forward.
What do you and I "showing" anything mean? Gettleman is the GM of this franchise. Calling him a shitbag or railing on every thread about him doesn't change that. And if you think it does - it only leads me to think you're more fucking delusional than your posts indicate.
A better request would be show me where you are qualified to judge the competency of a GM or can ascertain who deserves any position in the NFL. And calling a guy shitbag for kicks doesn't count, Bub.
So because I am not a GM, but Gettleman is, I am simply not permitted to question his moves? Because that is basically the way your post reads.
If I do not like something Gettleman does, I have every right to question the moves he has made. Every team - or at least most teams - in the NFL are run by "football people". But that doesn't make their moves unassailable. GMs get it wrong; in fact, they often do. It's why teams will fire coaches and GMs and still pay them the millions they are owed on their deals.
If you would like to engage in an educated discussion with me, I am more than happy to do so. It beats reading you curse every fifth word or tell me I am wrong and he is right because he is the GM, and I am not. That is as self-serving a statement as they come.
Well, you went a bit further than questioning DG's moves, you questioned whether he deserves to be a GM altogether.
Don't get me wrong...FMiC is a chucklehead but my guess is he jumped on you because you went a "bridge too far" with that type of comment.
Question anything you want, its all fair game at this point with the state of the franchise. But remember the Defenders of the Faith are sitting out there waiting to pounce like tigger...
bw in dc : 1/27/2020 5:52 pm : link
In comment 14795680 Giants38 said:
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So because I am not a GM, but Gettleman is, I am simply not permitted to question his moves? Because that is basically the way your post reads.
The resistance movement that springs into action when anyone dare question the actions of Gettleman is one of the more interesting phenomena I've ever seen at BBI.
You would think he was on the Mount Rushmore of GMs they way he is defended. That he shares that side of the mountain with the likes of either Belichick, Dick Haley, Bill Walsh, Ozzie Newsome, Bill Polian, etc.
At best, his career GM record is a C; and so far with the Giants he is either an F or an INC leaning hard to an F.
During his years as a starter, Duke went to two bowl games and won both.
During that same period up to the 2019 NFL draft ONE player from Duke was selected, that was Jones. No other player on that team during his tenure was drafted. That's a worse outcome than what Josh Allen had in Wyoming
During his years as a starter, Duke went to two bowl games and won both.
During that same period up to the 2019 NFL draft ONE player from Duke was selected, that was Jones. No other player on that team during his tenure was drafted. That's a worse outcome than what Josh Allen had in Wyoming
So he was drafted because he had excuses in college too?
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In comment 15431503 Essex said:
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Kenny Pickett is nowhere near as good as Jones. He is a 23 year old kid playing in a Mickey Mouse conference and never had exceptional numbers besides this year. Is he a good college QB? This year he certainly is. Is he a good NFL QB? Not sure where you get that from
Nowhere near as good. Now that's funny. Please stop confusing Jones with Elway at Stanford.
You don't think Clemson still has a high caliber defense? Let me answer that for you - they do. And Pickett lit them up for 300+, 2 TD/0 INT, a 90 QBR.
Did it ever occur to that the light finally went off for Pickett and now he gets it? Happened for Burrow...
it happened for Burrow.
and didn't happen for about 100 other QBs who have turned out to be busts.
Burrow's outcome is pretty unique and in large part due to the fact that the only reason he transferred in the first place was because he was stuck behind another QB good enough to break a bunch of records and get picked in the first round. Had he played earlier he likely would have succeeded earlier.
Still boggles the mind that Burrow couldn't beat out Dwayne Haskins.
From what I've seen, I like Corral. I wanna see more of him & Pickett, but if either are there when we're up...well, that's a tough decision. I'd lean taking one of 'em because as much as I want DJ to succeed, I don't know if he's the answer. And by now we should know.
Have not seen Strong play can’t really comment
Ridder looks promising, looks like he can be good in the right system. Little inconsistent with his accuracy put him around the A&M kid that came out last year. Forget his name
Jurkovich was the kid I wanted to see this year. Looked real strong in his move from ND. If Book didn’t stay, I could see this kid really lighting up this year in south bend. Big arm, accurate, and stands tall in pocket. Similar to Big Ben when he was in the MAC
The hype over Justin Fields was ridiculous. The fact some in this thread want to spout "well Judge had this guy available and they didn't take him" nonsense when, 1) how do you know? You don't know how little or big of studying they've put into those 1st rd picks and 2) the Giants had issues all over in including WR despite adding Golladay. Toney is a potential #1 and they landed another 1st which may very well be top ten. And we're knocking that? Over the 2021 class which had numerous holes? The draft is a damn dart board. None of them were coming in and lighting it up with this OL and receiver lineup that's in and out with injuries.
I haven't seen anything out of Fields yet that says I wish he were in blue.
Jones showed me this past week that I was wrong about him being in the Kent Graham tier of "can start a few games for you", because a Kent Graham tier QB would not have won the game this past Sunday. I still don't know what we have in him, but at least I think if he builds on Sunday, he can at least be a fungible starter in this league.
The problem is, fungible starter just isn't enough unless he stays cheap.
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QB is not even the 2nd or 3rd most urgent need in the upcoming draft. Want to throw the dice on a later round project QB? That's the only way I see giants picking one.
A team this bereft of talent shouldn't be drafting for "need" anyway. They need to improve at virtually every position on the field.
If Jones isn't part of the solution, that especially needs to be addressed before he gets to be a very expensive "not the problem".
So if you have a car with engine trouble, a busted fuel line and a bent tire rod, you would replace a perfectly good transmission ahead of the parts that need fixing based solely on availability? 🙄
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In comment 15431502 TJ said:
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QB is not even the 2nd or 3rd most urgent need in the upcoming draft. Want to throw the dice on a later round project QB? That's the only way I see giants picking one.
A team this bereft of talent shouldn't be drafting for "need" anyway. They need to improve at virtually every position on the field.
If Jones isn't part of the solution, that especially needs to be addressed before he gets to be a very expensive "not the problem".
So if you have a car with engine trouble, a busted fuel line and a bent tire rod, you would replace a perfectly good transmission ahead of the parts that need fixing based solely on availability? 🙄
Using logic on this board is frowned upon
Have not seen Strong play can’t really comment
Ridder looks promising, looks like he can be good in the right system. Little inconsistent with his accuracy put him around the A&M kid that came out last year. Forget his name
Jurkovich was the kid I wanted to see this year. Looked real strong in his move from ND. If Book didn’t stay, I could see this kid really lighting up this year in south bend. Big arm, accurate, and stands tall in pocket. Similar to Big Ben when he was in the MAC
Jurkovich got hurt and has basically missed the year with a hand injury.
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Asked about strong, ridder and jurkovich.
Have not seen Strong play can’t really comment
Ridder looks promising, looks like he can be good in the right system. Little inconsistent with his accuracy put him around the A&M kid that came out last year. Forget his name
Jurkovich was the kid I wanted to see this year. Looked real strong in his move from ND. If Book didn’t stay, I could see this kid really lighting up this year in south bend. Big arm, accurate, and stands tall in pocket. Similar to Big Ben when he was in the MAC
Jurkovich got hurt and has basically missed the year with a hand injury.
Transferred to BC last year when Book decided to come back. Player well at BC last year. Even against Clemsons better D last year. Started this season well, and got injured early. Would have liked to see him for a full year in the BC system.
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In comment 15431848 BigBlueShock said:
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Nobody was pounding the table for Herbert last season and not one single person thought that the Giants would move off of Jones after his rookie season. Not one.
That's not true -- a few mentioned that we should explore the possibility. The search isn't ideal here, for sure, but it still took me just a few seconds to find this thread. Should we draft Herbert and listen to offers? - ( New Window )
Nice find! So I guess I was off. ONE poster was adamant about his feelings for drafting Herbert, JonC. Great job by him. I seen some lukewarm praise of Herbert from others and the possibility they MAY be open to the idea but certainly not the conviction we see now. The after the fact outrage is ludicrous and that thread pretty much confirms my point. I was off by one.
JonC nailed it. Great job by him on that thread.
No, lax counsel said so as well. And I'm pretty sure I remember others advocating it, but it's just difficult to find. I'm only searching for archived threads with Herbert in the title here, and I'm not clicking on all of them.
another thread - ( New Window )
And if you think Herbert vs Jones debate is already settled on how their careers are going to turn out, that would be a mistake.
I’d be looking at all positions with an eye toward front 7 and OL.
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It wasn't his fault at Duke, but that's not a reason to draft him either.
There was no proof of Jones's capability to even be a top shelf college player, yet the Giants drafted him 6th overall. Incredible.
Jones had essentially the same career that Lamar Jackson had in college. Do you think Lamar Jackson had a good college career?
And - you're a complete moron if you think there was "no proof" of Jones being a top shelf college player. He was a 1st round draft pick by every single stretch of the imagination. Did we pick him 10 slots early? Maybe. Who the fuck cares man. Get over it.
In no way, like literally no way, did "Daniel Jones and Lamar Jackson have the same career in college".
I mean it's so obvious that are you not a viewer of college ball, you don't even remotely follow it.
From what I've seen, I like Corral. I wanna see more of him & Pickett, but if either are there when we're up...well, that's a tough decision. I'd lean taking one of 'em because as much as I want DJ to succeed, I don't know if he's the answer. And by now we should know.
Jones will never approach Cousins. Not even close.
If you want to keep talking about Justin Herbert I suggest doing that on the Chargers message board.
And if you think Herbert vs Jones debate is already settled on how their careers are going to turn out, that would be a mistake.
Herbert is a transcendent player. We should all feel unfortunate we didn't get someone with that many tools.
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DJ started at Duke from 2016 (part of the season) to 2019.
During his years as a starter, Duke went to two bowl games and won both.
During that same period up to the 2019 NFL draft ONE player from Duke was selected, that was Jones. No other player on that team during his tenure was drafted. That's a worse outcome than what Josh Allen had in Wyoming
So he was drafted because he had excuses in college too?
"Excuses", WTF are you talking about?
The whole point is to show that despite no supporting cast he accomplished quite a bit in College despite the silly arguments that he did not, and the point regarding Josh Allen was that we heard the same exact arguments on BBI that he did nothing in college while ignoring the fact that football is a team sport.
You're flailing a bit with your bias.
He's 6'6" 235lb Dan Marino...but more mobile.
Not sure there is a better word to capture that ability other than transcendent.
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You guys will be talking about Herbert for the next 5 years, probably everyday.
And if you think Herbert vs Jones debate is already settled on how their careers are going to turn out, that would be a mistake.
Herbert is a transcendent player. We should all feel unfortunate we didn't get someone with that many tools.
What is hilarious though, are the snap judgements on Jones...based on what?
The dogshit offense he was surrounded in year 2? So, we level up our talent for year 3..but none of the new additions(or re-additions-->Barley)..can practice, play, do anything. Did you expect those upgrades to just come out on fire first few weeks? Golladay dinged, no camp..Toney and Barkely misssing camp, even Rudolph(who doesn't belong in the conversation with the others) didn't do anyting.
Before the season starts, right before..you have Jordan Rannan saying it looks like it will take Golladay some time to get up to speed..that he didn't look like he was all the way back. So our top addition comes in gimpy. Same with Barkley, same with Toney.
I said before the season started, that I thought it would take awhile for the offense to get the new pieces integrated because of this scenario. Barkely was being brought along slowley..as was Toney(coming off all the missed time and being a rookie). I was thinking the first month could be bumpy..it was, not entirely shocking. Then the wheels start coming off..all the new additions, plus Shepard(our incumbent best WR) start dropping.
Let Jones finish the year before making the snap judgements..it's ridiculous. He was playing well before the players got hurt..maybe not as well as you'd hope(redzone)..but he was being recognized for it outside of Giants land.
Herberts a great player, no doubt..but quarterbacks don't play in a vacuum..he's had his guys out there with him and the Chargers skill players are one of the stronger groups going. Having a top 3 of Williams, Keenan Allen and Austin austin ekeler..(Hunter Henry a year ago) is just a shade better than what Jone's gets to play with each week.
If you think having weapons to throw to doesn't matter just go back to the 2008 playoffs post plax incident...QBs can't will practice squad WRs open against starting caliber corners.
Do you recall a player of Herbert's size, athleticism, and throwing ability? And doing it so well so early in their career?
Not sure why pointing that out, and describing it, creates so much consternation.
That's quite the rounding error.
You know Daniel Jones, Kyler Murray, we'd be the same team with either player.
I am biased. I'm biased against the Giants playing shitty football and making poor decisions that lead to them playing shitty football.
The Giants have been and continue to be indisputably terrible. Why is it offensive to dig deep into the reasons why? What is the alternative? Break down the football they play each week? Ugh...
I feel bad for Jones. It's not his fault he was hugely overdrafted.
Can we just let him play out the final 10 games and then reconvene to give our opinions on what the Giants need to do at QB going forward.Why would anyone want to draft Josh Allen at number 43??
I keep on telling myself to stay out of these DJ bashing threads but somehow I get pulled back into them.I'm out!!!
Can we just let him play out the final 10 games and then reconvene to give our opinions on what the Giants need to do at QB going forward.Why would anyone want to draft Josh Allen at number 43??
I keep on telling myself to stay out of these DJ bashing threads but somehow I get pulled back into them.I'm out!!!
The option to draft neither of them existed too. They'd already committed to paying Eli, so they didn't need to draft a QB, and certainly not 6th overall.
Can we just let him play out the final 10 games and then reconvene to give our opinions on what the Giants need to do at QB going forward.Why would anyone want to draft Josh Allen at number 43??
I keep on telling myself to stay out of these DJ bashing threads but somehow I get pulled back into them.I'm out!!!
Plus we should have drafted Tua instead of Herbert. So the stats tell a story but not the whole story. Terps, I appreciate the stats and they aren't in Jones' favor. He may not be our guy but I'm giving him this season and I want to see him with a full (close to) squad, especially Thomas back. We are seeing Mahomes lose now due to poor OL and defensive play. There are outside factors.
We see a blue chip QB in this draft AND we are in position to draft him, ok we can talk. But I don't think any of those variables will line up.
So, there can be down years and there can be droughts if you're looking for elite QB's. So, be prepared. We may have to re-sign Daniel Jones, eventhough he looks very average.
Or Willis. Or Corral.
Let me echo what others have said already, the OP is an exercise in circular logic. If--according to my good friend comsicj--none of us can evaluate QB talent than we should all shut the fuck up about it. Period. Exclamation point! No need for five pages of discussion on something of which we are all clueless, right? Question mark?
I feel bad for Jones. It's not his fault he was hugely overdrafted.
This is not necessarily meant for you, but since it sort of ties in I thought I would quote this post.
As a rookie, Daniel Jones had a 5.2% TD rate. If he had that rate this year he would have been ranked 14th ahead of some players mentioned elsewhere in this thread. His INT% was worse, but he was also a rookie so even if he cut that from 2.6% to 2.0% that puts him tied for 17th or so (he is currently at 1.7% but I think a little more aggressiveness might lead to a slight bump). It is not like he suddenly forgot where the end zone is and it is also not like he had that much more talent his rookie year. Barkley was nicked up a few games and their best WR's were Darius Slayton (who would probably be WR4 at best this year if everyone was healthy) and the illustrious Golden Tate. The only WR to play more than 14 games - Cody Latimer. Now it is possible that Daniel Jones gets gunshy if he is focused on cutting down turnovers, but it is also not like he has had a lot of opportunities to make plays especially if coaches don't give a lot of audibles for whatever reason (with a patchwork OL maybe they don't trust it would hold up). The playcalling lacks any creativity in the red zone or using natural rub routes to get guys open in the passing game. We have TE reverses, run up the gut even though that is the weakest part of our OL, and rollouts to the one receiver side. BBI could probably design a better playbook than Jason Garrett which is odd because there were great plays leading up to the red zone against New Orleans. I wonder how much is also Joe Judge is too conservative at times for today's NFL. Nobody is saying he needs to be "Riverboat Ron" or always go for it on 4th down, but around the 30-35 he is too petrified of getting knocked out of FG range he would rather take the FG than taking the shot at the first down and go for the TD if it meant that from time to time you would need to punt. That takes away red zone opportunities for Jones to pass for a TD.
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In comment 15431819 Beer Man said:
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In comment 15431743 JonC said:
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and you look for the LT in '21 or '22.
This whole "see hole, plug hole" with your #1 pick drives me nuts.
Herbert probably would have been the Giants pick had he gone into the draft after his Junior season. He didn't, so the Giants went a different direction. The coach and the GM see DJ everyday, and they saw enough in him they didn't believe they needed to draft another QB the following year. Consequently, Herbert is not the Giants QB; time to get over it.
There's a big difference between preferring JH over DJ before you draft either one of them vs. preferring JH over DJ after you already spent a top-10 pick on DJ.
I'm not sure what the point is. DG personally scouted JH during his junior season. The speculation was that DG was going all in on JH that year. But JH decided to return to school and so the Giants went with DJ. You don't hold back on a guy you like to gamble that someone you like better may still be on the board when you draft the following year.
Why not?
If you're already picking up the option on you franchise legend incumbent, and you feel strongly about Herbert over Jones, why not wait a year to get the guy you really love instead of talking yourself into the best option available?
Worst case scenario, you have to leverage some current/future draft capital to go get your guy a year later, but you still end up getting your guy. And at the QB position, that's incredibly important.
That's what Accorsi had that DG lacks. Accorsi had a conviction on Eli and he was willing to go get him. If DG truly liked Herbert more than Jones, waiting a year and continuing to build would have made sense, especially since they had already committed the cap dollars to Eli for 2019.
Eli Manning would have been way down that list.
Eli Manning would have been way down that list.
It's projected pretty well for Jones so far.
So let me ask you - why do you think The Giants drafted Jones?
Eli Manning would have been way down that list.
And on the reverse side is Phil Simms. Simms didn't even sniff the playoffs in college, lost more than half his games, threw more interceptions than touchdowns. Yet the Giants saw enough potential in him to draft him in the first round and while it took a few years, he took off.
I'm definitely not a Jones supporter. I've read many of your posts in the past and have disagreed with the vast majority of your opinions but at least they were fairly rooted in reality.
However the last few days, many of your posts defending Jones are really off the rails crazy.
Lol at the company Jones keeps at the bottom of that list. Not encouraging.
As I said the other day, Jones is going to leave the Giants and settle into a nice career as an NFL backup. When that happens, how many losses he gets under his belt, and how much money he earned before that day is up to the Giants.
Eli Manning would have been way down that list.
Ryan, the chart doesn't include success in terms of wins/losses, only QB stats.
If this has little to do with NFL projection, then what are the major ones that do in your view?
And what I'm seeing is a guy who has improved his decision making and his turnovers. He's getting out of the pocket more. His movement is better. He's seeing the field better. We've had about 10 players this year that would have been huge if not for breakdowns on the OL, which is not Jones' fault. He carried us at Washington, carried us at New Orleans, and just played a really good game against a top 10 defense with literally, nobody on the OL and no skill players, and won by 20+ points.
He isn't throwing enough touchdown passes, and that's what people keep harping on. Well....he didn't all of a sudden forget how to do that. It's about personnel, red zone efficiency, play calling, everything.
Jones is improving this year, and will continue to improve as we get our guys back. Not sure what else to say.
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no offense, that chart means nothing. But thanks for sharing. College success at the QB position has little to do with NFL projection.
Eli Manning would have been way down that list.
It's projected pretty well for Jones so far.
So let me ask you - why do you think The Giants drafted Jones?
The Giants drafted Jones because they thought he was a franchise 12+ year QB who had the correct makeup and ability to be a championship quarterback and leader. They saw something in him and made the decision. Yeah - did it help that he was in the same circle as Eli? Sure. But it has nothing to do with college stats. College stats are for losers, quite honestly. We'd draft every quarterback from Hawaii or Texas Tech or whatever the hell school puts up a million points every year if that were the case.
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In comment 15431519 rsjem1979 said:
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In comment 15431502 TJ said:
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QB is not even the 2nd or 3rd most urgent need in the upcoming draft. Want to throw the dice on a later round project QB? That's the only way I see giants picking one.
A team this bereft of talent shouldn't be drafting for "need" anyway. They need to improve at virtually every position on the field.
If Jones isn't part of the solution, that especially needs to be addressed before he gets to be a very expensive "not the problem".
So if you have a car with engine trouble, a busted fuel line and a bent tire rod, you would replace a perfectly good transmission ahead of the parts that need fixing based solely on availability? 🙄
Using logic on this board is frowned upon
Most definitely. It’s unbearable sometimes.
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no offense, that chart means nothing. But thanks for sharing. College success at the QB position has little to do with NFL projection.
Eli Manning would have been way down that list.
It's projected pretty well for Jones so far.
So let me ask you - why do you think The Giants drafted Jones?
They saw Eli Manning II and thought Eli could be for him what Kurt Warner was for Eli. However, Eli was much further gone in his career than Warner was when we brought him in. Eli Manning had a bunch of no names at Ole Miss yet had them in the Top 15 playing in the Cotton Bowl. Daniel Jones took Duke to multiple winning seasons and multiple bowl wins. I can't recall the last time any QB led Duke to that. I think their preference was Justin Herbert, but when he decided to remain at Oregon they didn't to make sure they got a QB when they were in a position to get one. I don't think they expected to be picking 4th overall the following season. One of many misjudgments about where the team was.
But is QBR YTD - 46.9 - is lower than 2019 (55.7) and 2020 (54). And he's probably going to have 15 TDs and 10+ INTs. Which means another year of double digit INTs and a subpar TD/INT ratio.
In other words, it's really a mixed bag when you evaluate the full picture. Some good games for Jones and some poor games. He never can string together multiple games to demonstrate consistency.
And that's really the never-ending problem. Lack of consistency. Always has been...
It often feels like they're throwing shit against the wall and hoping it sticks. Their decisions are often short-term focused and reactionary, and then Mara's basic comments go right to injuries. It's maddening.
There is no ability for patience with QBs anymore. You see Herbert and go OMG WE SHOULD HAVE THAT GUY! QB performance is not linear. There will be a year where Herbert struggles. He'll go through a period where he looks bad. Hell, Patrick Mahomes has not looked good recently, he has turned the ball over more than Daniel Jones. Because his OL sucks. That's why.
People like Terps create their own rules as to what franchise QBs should look like. He created this "30 TD" rule - well - he wants to trade our whole team for Watson and Watson has thrown 30 TD once in his career. Russell Wilson did it exactly 1 time his first 5 years in the league.
And what I'm seeing is a guy who has improved his decision making and his turnovers. He's getting out of the pocket more. His movement is better. He's seeing the field better. We've had about 10 players this year that would have been huge if not for breakdowns on the OL, which is not Jones' fault. He carried us at Washington, carried us at New Orleans, and just played a really good game against a top 10 defense with literally, nobody on the OL and no skill players, and won by 20+ points.
He isn't throwing enough touchdown passes, and that's what people keep harping on. Well....he didn't all of a sudden forget how to do that. It's about personnel, red zone efficiency, play calling, everything.
Jones is improving this year, and will continue to improve as we get our guys back. Not sure what else to say.
He played a "really good game" against Carolina? Really? Outside of the garbage time Booker TD when the Giants took over on Carolina's 20 yard line, the offense produced one touchdown. This despite having dream field position the entire first half. This was far from a "really good game". Did he suck? No, he did not. Was he really good? No, he was not.
I will say this, he was amazing at avoiding more sacks considering there was, as you say, "literally" nobody on the OL.
If Rudolph doesn't step out of bounds, Jones has 2 TD and everyone goes wow Jones was GREAT today! But he did, and Garrett calls 3 runs up the middle and gets stuffed. Again, not on Jones.
If Judge doesn't take the ball out of his hands multiple times against Washington or Atlanta, he probably has 2 or 3 more TD on the season. But he did, so the stat line remains what it is.
Garoppolo is another one to look at. He sat behind Brady for three years but interestingly his stats were in another stratosphere compared to Jones. Which explains why he was traded in a big transaction.
Jared Goff - who everyone like to diss - looked like Johnny Unitas on the Rams but with the Lions is quietly having a really lousy year.
I’m not seeing any evidence that QBs mature into Pro Bowlers in the current era.
Let me put this more personally - the selections of Barkley (who I honestly view as a completely mediocre player - I’m literally completely indifferent as to whether he sets foot on the field vs KC) and Jones (who is better but not exceptional) have brought home to me how mental aspects of the game are so crucial. Both players have some very positive athletic traits but have non-elite “football cognitive” skills. That limits their performance and their ceiling in the NFL.
Hence, my comment that we need to be very careful in assessing college players. Corral is fairly small but if he processes the game like Drew Brees (not saying he does but if...) he will be a star. And it’s difficult for fans to assess those sorts of attributes.
QBR evaluates the entire play. Every play of the game. Average is assumed to be 50.
The analysts looks at the time Jones has to throw, the effectiveness of his receivers, ball placement, running, penalties, garbage time, etc. So the level of talent is smoothed out.
For example, if Jones drops back to pass, is flushed out of the pocket because his protection breaks down, and makes a good throw that is dropped, it's considered a positive play for Jones.
So if you think that is a reasonable approach, how do you explain that Jones's QBR is his poorest so far in his career?
Again, Jones struggles stringing together quality performances. It's a good game, a poor game. Two good games, two poor games. You just can't count on the guy to get on a roll and sustain quality play. If you can't trust your most important player to be reliable game to game, he's just not your answer.
Wait - there's an alternate universe where the Giants are scoring over 20 PPG and playing winning football? How do I get to this place?
I say the data indicates clearly that you will know very quickly whether you have a future star at QB. I’m not coming up with any examples in the last 10-15 years to disprove that. There are players who develop into reasonable starting NFL QBs, but they aren’t stars.
I say the data indicates clearly that you will know very quickly whether you have a future star at QB. I’m not coming up with any examples in the last 10-15 years to disprove that. There are players who develop into reasonable starting NFL QBs, but they aren’t stars.
Well, in regard to the premise of this thread, I absolutely want to underscore that the QB class of '22 is not as bad as many state. There is quality that is worth watching playing more games. Hell, like I said, Kiper now has Pickett his top ranked QB and the 15th best overall player. And I don't think that's crazy...
That’s Allen - a project who needed to be developed.
What are we arguing about with Jones exactly? I think it’s likely he can be as or almost as good as Kirk Cousins. That’s nothing to sneeze at but I just don’t see how he fits into the Giants future.
I say the data indicates clearly that you will know very quickly whether you have a future star at QB. I’m not coming up with any examples in the last 10-15 years to disprove that. There are players who develop into reasonable starting NFL QBs, but they aren’t stars.
Brees is the only guy I can think of here. He really didn't pop until his 4th year in San Diego. And then he got hurt...
But that’s an eon ago, before the Colts/Pats playoff brouhaha and the passing game liberalization. I was deliberately restricting my view to the last 15 years.
He played a good, clean game against a top 10 defense while missing several of his best weapons. This is progress for one game, now start stringing the performances together while continuing to eliminate some of the negatives I've spotted. Let's see it in the metrics and on the field as the unit gets healthy.
If Jones looks like this on Monday, he will receive high praise from his critics.
Watson is elite - ( New Window )
This “emerging player” thesis has not basis. It’s over guys, we know what we have.
That’s Allen - a project who needed to be developed.
What are we arguing about with Jones exactly? I think it’s likely he can be as or almost as good as Kirk Cousins. That’s nothing to sneeze at but I just don’t see how he fits into the Giants future.
I don't see any comp between Jones and Cousins. Cousins is fundamentally pretty sound - a mechanic. He doesn't make the special plays that separate the top guys from him, but he's got the rest of the game down. I don't see Jones ever getting to that...long way to go.
He played a good, clean game against a top 10 defense while missing several of his best weapons. This is progress for one game, now start stringing the performances together while continuing to eliminate some of the negatives I've spotted. Let's see it in the metrics and on the field as the unit gets healthy.
There are only about 8-10 teams that shouldn't be considering drafting a QB if the opportunity arises. The Giants are not one of those teams.
There is no ability for patience with QBs anymore. You see Herbert and go OMG WE SHOULD HAVE THAT GUY! QB performance is not linear. There will be a year where Herbert struggles.
We did get spoiled with Eli Manning, but some of us aren't delusional enough to believe they replaced Eli Manning with another 10-15 year QB just because Jones looks like he's straight out of Quarterback central casting and has good games once in a while.
That's how YOU'RE spoiled. The Giants had a franchise QB in Eli Manning, and then (according to you) they landed another one immediately afterwards. Maybe, just maybe, it doesn't work that way??
Point blank - will the Giants win a playoff game with Daniel Jones as their starter? If so, when? Will they reach an NFC Championship Game? Super Bowl?
What's the timeline for the franchise and Jones? How does his contract situation mesh with the franchise's current and future outlook?
And on the subject of Herbert, with the exception of straight line speed, he's literally better than Jones in every single way.
This “emerging player” thesis has not basis. It’s over guys, we know what we have.
Tannehill is another good example. He was a WR at Texas A&M and then converted to a QB either his Jr and Sr year. Drafted high by Miami and very raw. But even with some ordinary talent at Miami, he was able to throw 24+ TDs in years 2 and 3. And his completion % was getting better and better. Plus, he was getting crushed in the pocket due to a poor OL...
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were spoiled with Eli Manning. Then again - they also wanted him gone multiple times throughout his career, even after his third and fourth season.
There is no ability for patience with QBs anymore. You see Herbert and go OMG WE SHOULD HAVE THAT GUY! QB performance is not linear. There will be a year where Herbert struggles.
We did get spoiled with Eli Manning, but some of us aren't delusional enough to believe they replaced Eli Manning with another 10-15 year QB just because Jones looks like he's straight out of Quarterback central casting and has good games once in a while.
That's how YOU'RE spoiled. The Giants had a franchise QB in Eli Manning, and then (according to you) they landed another one immediately afterwards. Maybe, just maybe, it doesn't work that way??
Point blank - will the Giants win a playoff game with Daniel Jones as their starter? If so, when? Will they reach an NFC Championship Game? Super Bowl?
What's the timeline for the franchise and Jones? How does his contract situation mesh with the franchise's current and future outlook?
And on the subject of Herbert, with the exception of straight line speed, he's literally better than Jones in every single way.
I'm pretty sure there were ZERO fans that wanted Eli gone after his 4th season.
There are only about 8-10 teams that shouldn't be considering drafting a QB if the opportunity arises. The Giants are not one of those teams.
Indeed. Teams will jump over each other to grab one of the top 2 QBs in the class, regardless how weak it may seem.
There are only about 8-10 teams that shouldn't be considering drafting a QB if the opportunity arises. The Giants are not one of those teams.
I agree the Giants are not in a position that they shouldn't be considering drafting a QB if the opportunity arises, but the question is are they in a position that they HAVE TO draft a QB even if they do not think he is an improvement over Jones and someone at another position of need looks to be a stud? I would argue that since Jones is on a rookie contract in 2022 we are in a position where we can say if there isn't a better option in the draft grin and bear it and draft one in 2023 (perhaps using 2nd 1st as leverage to get an additional 1st in 2023) because then you will have a minimum of 5 more years of a QB on a rookie contract whereas if you draft one in 2022 who isn't better then you have only 4 years because of the 1 year overlap between Jones and new QB.
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I expect we'll see 3-5 QBs drafted in the first round. That's just the economics of the game in the present day. Unless you have an unquestioned stud at QB it makes sense to stay in a rookie contract at the position.
There are only about 8-10 teams that shouldn't be considering drafting a QB if the opportunity arises. The Giants are not one of those teams.
Indeed. Teams will jump over each other to grab one of the top 2 QBs in the class, regardless how weak it may seem.
That is how you end up with a Blake Bortles or Daniel Jones
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Allen was obviously a project but Bills fans were sitting there in late October of 2020 - his 3rd season - knowing they had a future star QB on their team. Allen was completing 70% of his passes in most of his games in his 3rd year, putting up impressive stats and winning.
That’s Allen - a project who needed to be developed.
What are we arguing about with Jones exactly? I think it’s likely he can be as or almost as good as Kirk Cousins. That’s nothing to sneeze at but I just don’t see how he fits into the Giants future.
I don't see any comp between Jones and Cousins. Cousins is fundamentally pretty sound - a mechanic. He doesn't make the special plays that separate the top guys from him, but he's got the rest of the game down. I don't see Jones ever getting to that...long way to go.
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I expect we'll see 3-5 QBs drafted in the first round. That's just the economics of the game in the present day. Unless you have an unquestioned stud at QB it makes sense to stay in a rookie contract at the position.
There are only about 8-10 teams that shouldn't be considering drafting a QB if the opportunity arises. The Giants are not one of those teams.
I agree the Giants are not in a position that they shouldn't be considering drafting a QB if the opportunity arises, but the question is are they in a position that they HAVE TO draft a QB even if they do not think he is an improvement over Jones and someone at another position of need looks to be a stud? I would argue that since Jones is on a rookie contract in 2022 we are in a position where we can say if there isn't a better option in the draft grin and bear it and draft one in 2023 (perhaps using 2nd 1st as leverage to get an additional 1st in 2023) because then you will have a minimum of 5 more years of a QB on a rookie contract whereas if you draft one in 2022 who isn't better then you have only 4 years because of the 1 year overlap between Jones and new QB.
You can't draft a quarterback in round 1 that isn't an improvement on Jones. Jones himself has shown he wasn't a first round talent.
I'm not in favor of forcing a QB pick. I'm on favor of picking a quarterback that merits being picked high in the first round.
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In comment 15432487 Go Terps said:
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I expect we'll see 3-5 QBs drafted in the first round. That's just the economics of the game in the present day. Unless you have an unquestioned stud at QB it makes sense to stay in a rookie contract at the position.
There are only about 8-10 teams that shouldn't be considering drafting a QB if the opportunity arises. The Giants are not one of those teams.
I agree the Giants are not in a position that they shouldn't be considering drafting a QB if the opportunity arises, but the question is are they in a position that they HAVE TO draft a QB even if they do not think he is an improvement over Jones and someone at another position of need looks to be a stud? I would argue that since Jones is on a rookie contract in 2022 we are in a position where we can say if there isn't a better option in the draft grin and bear it and draft one in 2023 (perhaps using 2nd 1st as leverage to get an additional 1st in 2023) because then you will have a minimum of 5 more years of a QB on a rookie contract whereas if you draft one in 2022 who isn't better then you have only 4 years because of the 1 year overlap between Jones and new QB.
You can't draft a quarterback in round 1 that isn't an improvement on Jones. Jones himself has shown he wasn't a first round talent.
I'm not in favor of forcing a QB pick. I'm on favor of picking a quarterback that merits being picked high in the first round.
Okay, as I read your post it seemed that you were saying that you pick a QB at all costs regardless of whether it is an improvement over Jones. I know it happens sometimes when I post. I read things knowing what I mean to say so I don't realize when it is not coming out how I intended.
There are only about 8-10 teams that shouldn't be considering drafting a QB if the opportunity arises. The Giants are not one of those teams.
I agree the Giants are not in a position that they shouldn't be considering drafting a QB if the opportunity arises, but the question is are they in a position that they HAVE TO draft a QB even if they do not think he is an improvement over Jones and someone at another position of need looks to be a stud? I would argue that since Jones is on a rookie contract in 2022 we are in a position where we can say if there isn't a better option in the draft grin and bear it and draft one in 2023 (perhaps using 2nd 1st as leverage to get an additional 1st in 2023) because then you will have a minimum of 5 more years of a QB on a rookie contract whereas if you draft one in 2022 who isn't better then you have only 4 years because of the 1 year overlap between Jones and new QB.
You can't draft a quarterback in round 1 that isn't an improvement on Jones. Jones himself has shown he wasn't a first round talent.
I'm not in favor of forcing a QB pick. I'm on favor of picking a quarterback that merits being picked high in the first round.
Okay, as I read your post it seemed that you were saying that you pick a QB at all costs regardless of whether it is an improvement over Jones. I know it happens sometimes when I post. I read things knowing what I mean to say so I don't realize when it is not coming out how I intended.
I see his point as less extreme than that -- that most teams in the league should at least ponder taking a QB in the draft if one happens to be available (not necessarily in the first round) that could help improve their immediate or eventual situation. Few teams are set for a decade with their QB. Even some teams who currently have a capable starting QB may not have reason to feel "set" there due to economics.
Dallas
Tampa (that fucking guy is going to play forever)
LA Rams
Arizona
Seattle (assuming all is well behind the scenes)
Buffalo
Baltimore
Cincinnati
Kansas City
LA Chargers
If I'm one of those ten teams, quarterback doesn't need to be on my radar. I'm set...I think I've got a guy with whom I can win a Super Bowl.
Everyone else, I'm jumping at the opportunity to improve and/or get cheaper at the position. The other 22 teams are in different places. Some are assessing recent draft picks, others moving on from declining vets, GB has an uncertain future with Rodgers, etc.
But anyway if you're not one of those ten teams listed above, I think you should at least be open to it if the opportunity arises. Take the Jets for example. If they scout Malik Willis and give him a similar or better grade than Zack Wilson, why not draft Willis and trade Wilson? You've improved at QB according to your scouts, you've gotten something back for Wilson, and you've added a year of rookie QB contract status.
Unless there's a big change in the CBA rules at some point I think this is the way things will eventually trend. The "franchise QB" concept is going to be antiquated except in the cases of the elite QB talents.
Why? Because you never really know what's going to hit. There is such an art, and then coaching and development, trying to find one.
And if you get fortunate to find one, even if you are a team that has a good in one in place, it's an incredible asset at the most important position. It can help cover for an injury or become trade bait for future compensation.
SO you have to be careful with the "draft a QB every year" stuff.
If Rudolph doesn't step out of bounds, Jones has 2 TD and everyone goes wow Jones was GREAT today! But he did, and Garrett calls 3 runs up the middle and gets stuffed. Again, not on Jones.
If Judge doesn't take the ball out of his hands multiple times against Washington or Atlanta, he probably has 2 or 3 more TD on the season. But he did, so the stat line remains what it is.
The context needed was that Jones was screwed out of more touchdowns based on the above? That's great.
I wonder if any other QB is the NFL also had players not make plays for them in or near the end zone or a RB that ran in a short touchdown instead of passing it in. What do you think?
His terrible luck alone is reason to move on at quarterback.
Dallas
Tampa (that fucking guy is going to play forever)
LA Rams
Arizona
Seattle (assuming all is well behind the scenes)
Buffalo
Baltimore
Cincinnati
Kansas City
LA Chargers
I think Carr is close to playing his way to that group. He is really having a nice year. And for all the shit Tua gets, and I am not even a fan of his - he has been decimated by a poor coaching staff and injuries as well. His numbers arent as awful as people have suggested.
Tampa (that fucking guy is going to play forever)
LA Rams
Arizona
Seattle (assuming all is well behind the scenes)
Buffalo
Baltimore
Cincinnati
Kansas City
LA Chargers
in addition to GB (which offers it's own version of set at QB for this year situation) are making the playoffs.
Tell me again about how NFL franchises are winning without a franchise QB and how it's a "team" game....
SO you have to be careful with the "draft a QB every year" stuff.
It's worth it. That's where you need good coaching and management to properly manage that.
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QB controversies are ,historically, disastrous for NFL franchises...
SO you have to be careful with the "draft a QB every year" stuff.
It's worth it. That's where you need good coaching and management to properly manage that.
Fact.
You need a coach/front office that is experienced and trusted to survive it ... otherwise it consumes the organization and costs people their jobs....that's why - generally speaking - teams avoid it.
Dude is legit.
Certainly there are exceptions but as long as the team drafts the best players I’m not sure it matters too much what position they play.
The Giants need to get in the habit of drafting guys that win.
I’m not really talking about games but rather possessions more importantly plays.
Find players that win on a high-level and it won’t matter what position they play.
I have only seen Corral play a couple times, he's not the answer. He has some skills, but his size and game are risky
for a team like the Giants. I actually want to see the rest
of the season play out with Jones first...
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In comment 15431839 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15431819 Beer Man said:
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In comment 15431743 JonC said:
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and you look for the LT in '21 or '22.
This whole "see hole, plug hole" with your #1 pick drives me nuts.
Herbert probably would have been the Giants pick had he gone into the draft after his Junior season. He didn't, so the Giants went a different direction. The coach and the GM see DJ everyday, and they saw enough in him they didn't believe they needed to draft another QB the following year. Consequently, Herbert is not the Giants QB; time to get over it.
There's a big difference between preferring JH over DJ before you draft either one of them vs. preferring JH over DJ after you already spent a top-10 pick on DJ.
I'm not sure what the point is. DG personally scouted JH during his junior season. The speculation was that DG was going all in on JH that year. But JH decided to return to school and so the Giants went with DJ. You don't hold back on a guy you like to gamble that someone you like better may still be on the board when you draft the following year.
Why not?
If you're already picking up the option on you franchise legend incumbent, and you feel strongly about Herbert over Jones, why not wait a year to get the guy you really love instead of talking yourself into the best option available?
Worst case scenario, you have to leverage some current/future draft capital to go get your guy a year later, but you still end up getting your guy. And at the QB position, that's incredibly important.
That's what Accorsi had that DG lacks. Accorsi had a conviction on Eli and he was willing to go get him. If DG truly liked Herbert more than Jones, waiting a year and continuing to build would have made sense, especially since they had already committed the cap dollars to Eli for 2019.