I’m seeing a categorical statement that there are no really good QBs coming out. I’d like posters to show a little bit of humility on this point.
After what we’ve seen from Jones in terms of field processing, pocket presence and timing, it’s become really clear that high level QBing that translates to the NFL is difficult to spot. It’s subtle and it requires skillful scouting to detect. In fact, real NFL scouts are constantly making erroneous projections after what I’m sure is extensive work and film viewing.
Two of the best NFL QBs ever, Joe Montana and Drew Brees, we’re physically ordinary and we’re in fact downgraded in the draft. Superb physical prototypes like Jeff George failed utterly.
So spare me any categorical statements about the upcoming class, even if you’ve watched several full college games. I’m not saying that there are or are not future greats in the coming class. I’m saying that after seeing Eli, Kerry Collins and Jones, we should know from experience that making the projection is REALLY HARD. (That’s what she said.)
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available when we pick. But if you make the move --you have to be right. This tam cannot afford under any circumstances to blow a franchise altering decision like that.
It's OK to try and miss. We saw that with Arizona. What's not OK is to try, miss, and chase the miss to justify it. That's what the Giants are doing and it is strangling them.
What is strangling the Giants is the flawed conception of how teams are built. This is not the 1970's. You don't win with a running game and a bunch of DB's. The rules are so slanted to the passing game that you need to excel in that area and getting after the opposing QB if you want to win. We have our expensive DB's playing soft against opponents so our DL can't possibly get to QB in time. We saw more aggressive play against Carolina and we held them to 3 points.
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available when we pick. But if you make the move --you have to be right. This tam cannot afford under any circumstances to blow a franchise altering decision like that.
It's OK to try and miss. We saw that with Arizona. What's not OK is to try, miss, and chase the miss to justify it. That's what the Giants are doing and it is strangling them.
You think that the QB play is what is "strangling" the Giants???
With what he has at WR for most games...and that excuse for an OL protecting him...and Mr 1 yard and a cloud of dust at RB...and for you, its the QB thats strangling the team???
You are nuts. End of story.
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In comment 15431659 UberAlias said:
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available when we pick. But if you make the move --you have to be right. This tam cannot afford under any circumstances to blow a franchise altering decision like that.
It's OK to try and miss. We saw that with Arizona. What's not OK is to try, miss, and chase the miss to justify it. That's what the Giants are doing and it is strangling them.
People are so damned impatient anymore. The Cardinals spent a high first on a QB, then sucked bad enough to end up with the number 1 overall pick and drafted a QB the new regime liked more. So now that is somehow the “template” of what everyone does.
Your impatience isn’t anyone’s problem but your own. And please stop acting like one team doing something and it working is somehow the correct way of doing things.
Imagine what would have happened if the Indianapolis Colts had moved on from Peyton Manning after his 3-13 rookie year where he threw more INT's than TD's and had 6.5 Y/A and an awful 5.2 AY/A
Arizona isn't the only example. The Giants and WFT both had a shot at Herbert after missing with Jones and Haskins. The Giants AGAIN had a shot at Justin Fields AND Mac Jones and passed. They'll likely have opportunities to draft a good QB prospect again in this upcoming draft. It's relatively easy to pivot off a mistake.
The Giants are 2-5 and have the 25th scoring offense in the league. What are we clinging to here?
What then are you hanging your hat on that makes him a "good QB" that we're all missing?
A lot of handicapping of team talent level, competition talent level has to go into its hard.
At least that's for a fan like me who may catch at most a couple college games a week, and when it comes to these comparisons needs to rely on stats. Pickett and Corral have great Y/A #s, but so did Will Grier, Drew Lock as a Junior - and their situations are roughly analogous in terms of team talent/competition level talent I think.
Not trying to take away anything from the arguments here - just generally agreeing with the notion behind the OP. Its a lot easier when you have #1 pick and Burrow is sitting there lol.
Arizona isn't the only example. The Giants and WFT both had a shot at Herbert after missing with Jones and Haskins. The Giants AGAIN had a shot at Justin Fields AND Mac Jones and passed. They'll likely have opportunities to draft a good QB prospect again in this upcoming draft. It's relatively easy to pivot off a mistake.
The Giants are 2-5 and have the 25th scoring offense in the league. What are we clinging to here?
You did not want Mac Jones prior to 2021 Draft. Justin Fields has looked like dogsh*t for Chicago. 2 TD's (3 less than Daniel Jones), 6 INT's (2 more than Jones), an AY/A of 4.5 which might be the lowest I have ever seen from a starting QB. It is not like he is showing much improvement either.
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available when we pick. But if you make the move --you have to be right. This tam cannot afford under any circumstances to blow a franchise altering decision like that.
It's OK to try and miss. We saw that with Arizona. What's not OK is to try, miss, and chase the miss to justify it. That's what the Giants are doing and it is strangling them.
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In comment 15431659 UberAlias said:
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available when we pick. But if you make the move --you have to be right. This tam cannot afford under any circumstances to blow a franchise altering decision like that.
It's OK to try and miss. We saw that with Arizona. What's not OK is to try, miss, and chase the miss to justify it. That's what the Giants are doing and it is strangling them.
What is strangling the Giants is the flawed conception of how teams are built. This is not the 1970's. You don't win with a running game and a bunch of DB's. The rules are so slanted to the passing game that you need to excel in that area and getting after the opposing QB if you want to win. We have our expensive DB's playing soft against opponents so our DL can't possibly get to QB in time. We saw more aggressive play against Carolina and we held them to 3 points.
Technically the Giants of the 80s and 2000s knew that on the defensive side. Don't understand how we lost that way of thinking where "You can never have too many pass rushers".
Because I think he's done that in 3 of the 5 games he's finished this year (that's not counting the Panthers win since they had the lead).
In 3 out of 5 games he has led go ahead drives? That is simply not correct or at the very least disingenuous. Let's take a closer look at the events in those games:
Game 1 Broncos - Giants never close to lead in second half. No go ahead drive here.
Game 2 WFT - Bradberry intercepted the ball late in that game. Jones and the offense did nothing with it gaining 3 total yards and kicked a FG to take the lead. And then lost. No credit here as there was no go-ahead drive really led by Jones/Offense.
Game 3 Falcons - Giants took a 14-7 lead with 13 minutes left on clock in 4QTR. And after Falcons tied it with plenty of time to go in the game, Jones/Offense did nothing with ball and punted it back. And then lost. No credit here for a late go-ahead drive.
Game 4 Saints - Great comeback by Jones/Offense. A lot of credit here to Jones/Offense.
Game 5 Cowboys - Giants blown out in second half. No go ahead drive here.
Game 6 Rams - Giants blown out. No go ahead drive here.
Game 7 Panthers - Giants winning whole time. No go ahead drive here.
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Impatient? 3 years of shitty quarterback play isn't enough for you?
Arizona isn't the only example. The Giants and WFT both had a shot at Herbert after missing with Jones and Haskins. The Giants AGAIN had a shot at Justin Fields AND Mac Jones and passed. They'll likely have opportunities to draft a good QB prospect again in this upcoming draft. It's relatively easy to pivot off a mistake.
The Giants are 2-5 and have the 25th scoring offense in the league. What are we clinging to here?
You did not want Mac Jones prior to 2021 Draft. Justin Fields has looked like dogsh*t for Chicago. 2 TD's (3 less than Daniel Jones), 6 INT's (2 more than Jones), an AY/A of 4.5 which might be the lowest I have ever seen from a starting QB. It is not like he is showing much improvement either.
I didn't want either guy. But that's not the point. The point is the Giants appear to be content with "Not the Problem". A pathetic standard.
2-5. 25th in scoring. Season basically over. And while discussing these QB prospects is more enjoyable than actually discussing or even watching current Giants games, I know it's likely an academic exercise. I expect Jones to be the QB next season and the season after that. And I expect the Giants to suck both those seasons.
"Not the problem."
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In comment 15431690 Go Terps said:
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Impatient? 3 years of shitty quarterback play isn't enough for you?
Arizona isn't the only example. The Giants and WFT both had a shot at Herbert after missing with Jones and Haskins. The Giants AGAIN had a shot at Justin Fields AND Mac Jones and passed. They'll likely have opportunities to draft a good QB prospect again in this upcoming draft. It's relatively easy to pivot off a mistake.
The Giants are 2-5 and have the 25th scoring offense in the league. What are we clinging to here?
You did not want Mac Jones prior to 2021 Draft. Justin Fields has looked like dogsh*t for Chicago. 2 TD's (3 less than Daniel Jones), 6 INT's (2 more than Jones), an AY/A of 4.5 which might be the lowest I have ever seen from a starting QB. It is not like he is showing much improvement either.
I didn't want either guy. But that's not the point. The point is the Giants appear to be content with "Not the Problem". A pathetic standard.
2-5. 25th in scoring. Season basically over. And while discussing these QB prospects is more enjoyable than actually discussing or even watching current Giants games, I know it's likely an academic exercise. I expect Jones to be the QB next season and the season after that. And I expect the Giants to suck both those seasons.
"Not the problem."
It is not so much of "not the problem" as no better option is available. Daniel Jones is not Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers, but the Giants don't want to waste a pick on someone worse rather than using the pick to trade down and get talent like Toney and a future #1 which can be used as capital to get into a spot to land a better QB.
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In comment 15431659 UberAlias said:
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available when we pick. But if you make the move --you have to be right. This tam cannot afford under any circumstances to blow a franchise altering decision like that.
It's OK to try and miss. We saw that with Arizona. What's not OK is to try, miss, and chase the miss to justify it. That's what the Giants are doing and it is strangling them.
I could buy that, except for the fact that Joe Judge didn't draft Jones. I highly doubt he is trying to justify DGs pick, at his own expense.
I don't think it was ever his call. Peter King said it himself before Judge was hired: "I don't think the Giants are hiring anyone that says 'Daniel Jones isn't the answer at QB.'"
My guess is Judge would love to move on from Jones and develop his own guy. But it's not his call.
Lets keep doing everything the same way, keep all the players, coaches, management and expect to start winning.
It is crazy.
I have been arguing with Terps and BW for over a year on Jones. I found every single metric that showed Jones in positive light.
There are not many.
The best one, is tight window throws down the field. It is is a shockingly small sample size. They added, Golloday, Ross, Toney, and Rudolph. Money and draft capital invested in Jones. he has until the end of this year to prove it.
Prove it shall be defined as:
Keeping the turnovers at his current acceptable level and the offense scoring more touchdowns. Deep passes or inside the red zone, I don't care. Scores TDs.
If he doesn't do that the Giants should draft or sign a new QB.
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In comment 15431669 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15431659 UberAlias said:
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available when we pick. But if you make the move --you have to be right. This tam cannot afford under any circumstances to blow a franchise altering decision like that.
It's OK to try and miss. We saw that with Arizona. What's not OK is to try, miss, and chase the miss to justify it. That's what the Giants are doing and it is strangling them.
I could buy that, except for the fact that Joe Judge didn't draft Jones. I highly doubt he is trying to justify DGs pick, at his own expense.
I don't think it was ever his call. Peter King said it himself before Judge was hired: "I don't think the Giants are hiring anyone that says 'Daniel Jones isn't the answer at QB.'"
My guess is Judge would love to move on from Jones and develop his own guy. But it's not his call.
And you're in your usual depth if you believe stats are the only reason why someone might favor a prospect over Daniel Jones.
1. Judge does not want to replace Jones and believes in him.
2. Giants will have a good 2nd half of the season and will not be picking in the top 10.
I don't think it was ever his call. Peter King said it himself before Judge was hired: "I don't think the Giants are hiring anyone that says 'Daniel Jones isn't the answer at QB.'"
Mara tends to do that. No doubt in my mind a key reason why he hired Gettleman and Shurmur was because the were willing to hitch their wagon to Eli.
As far as Judge goes, he either has no idea what QB he wants because he has no real offense in mind. But I'd bet anything him and Garrett would be jumping out of their seats at the opportunity to jettison Jones.
Because we have people on this message board who are rooting for the Giants to lose games.
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can understand that Jones IS our QB. He’s not going anywhere
Because we have people on this message board who are rooting for the Giants to lose games.
Again I pose the question again and still waiting for an answer...what is the point of being a 6 win team again whose season is basically over (again)?
As far as Judge goes, he either has no idea what QB he wants because he has no real offense in mind. But I'd bet anything him and Garrett would be jumping out of their seats at the opportunity to jettison Jones.
I think Judge wants to jettison Garrett, no inside info but he doesn't need a big brother there anymore with HC experience. Lets get a better playcaller there.
As far as Judge goes, he either has no idea what QB he wants because he has no real offense in mind. But I'd bet anything him and Garrett would be jumping out of their seats at the opportunity to jettison Jones.
Nobody is saying Daniel Jones is Peyton Manning. Your dupe is saying that we should have jettisoned Jones after his rookie year and drafted Herbert. I am merely pointing out that there were other rookie QB's who struggled and went on to have great careers. Not to mention that Herbert was not as highly touted as Murray.
1. Judge does not want to replace Jones and believes in him.
2. Giants will have a good 2nd half of the season and will not be picking in the top 10.
Do you think Judge believes Jones can win playoff games or that he's merely the best option readily available for the next couple of years?
In scenarios #3 and #4 the team will not stick with Jones just to justify the pick because the guy who drafted him was let go. I also happen to see #1 as the most likely outcome of things.
In scenario #2 they could possibly stick with Jones to justify the pick, because DG would still be here. But I find this scenario very unlikely. If DG is extended, it is far more likely that Jones is also kept (option 1).
The only realistic option I see where they have any motivation to hard headedly stick with Jones to justify the pick is #1. But this options requires them having enough belief in DG where its not just a matter of not firing him, they have to actually EXTEND him. If Jones is as bad as you say, this team is going to continue to lose this season. That's a mountain of losing for a guy you not only extend but also force his QB on a head coach who is losing games and telling you the QB is a big reason for it.
To me, this is far less likely than an outcome where a) either Judge who has no predisposition to Jones really does approve of Jones or b) DG is fired, where there is no further motivation to justify the selection because they who drafted him was moved on from.
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So Daniel Jones is Peyton Manning now? Like WTF .. the ridiculous analogies here to QBs is enough to drive you nuts. Jones isn't a rookie. i don't want to look up his numbers. He was also playing pre '04 rule changes.
As far as Judge goes, he either has no idea what QB he wants because he has no real offense in mind. But I'd bet anything him and Garrett would be jumping out of their seats at the opportunity to jettison Jones.
I think Judge wants to jettison Garrett, no inside info but he doesn't need a big brother there anymore with HC experience. Lets get a better playcaller there.
I don't think he wanted Garrett from Day 1 and really wanted Kitchens. Garrett has ties to Nick Saban and Nick probably told Judge don't worry Garrett will be fine.
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So Daniel Jones is Peyton Manning now? Like WTF .. the ridiculous analogies here to QBs is enough to drive you nuts. Jones isn't a rookie. i don't want to look up his numbers. He was also playing pre '04 rule changes.
As far as Judge goes, he either has no idea what QB he wants because he has no real offense in mind. But I'd bet anything him and Garrett would be jumping out of their seats at the opportunity to jettison Jones.
I think Judge wants to jettison Garrett, no inside info but he doesn't need a big brother there anymore with HC experience. Lets get a better playcaller there.
You must be in dreamland if you think Judge would not be totally lost and out coached every game without Garrett there.
Further you must be the retain Jones. What are holding on to?? He is not like an Eli where you are on the hook for 20 mil so why not make the most of him even though you have your doubts you could still win with him.
Completely ridiculous to base a rebuild around someone who is as big a liability as Jones with this team not winning any games and not scoring.
Who blocks for them since you wouldn't have Thomas?
So after he lost Toomer and then Petitgout, the Giants went 2-6. I'm sure, 100% sure the injuries had nothing to do with this slide. Also sure many of you wanted him out of the Giants at that point. Jones doesn't have ANYONE healthy! You have to be real with that.
Corral probably top rated but size and decision making a concern. He will never last in NFL running like he does in college. He needs to look to avoid contact in NFL . He has a good arm and good release.
Willis probably second right now but I must admit I have not seen him play. My question about Willis is why couldn’t he beat out Nix at Auburn. Did he not get a fair chance?
Pickett is the QB I have watched a lot this year. A good arm and good release. Having a sensational 5th year and a fast riser in the draft.
Howell is having a mediocre year and has been a disappointment. Not sure what is going on with Howell. It maybe that he needs elite talent around him to succeed. At least that has been mentioned when discussing Howell.
I do not like Slovis at USC. I don’t think he has an NFL arm.
I need to watch Strong play also. Have not watched any of his games but hear he has a strong arm.
Question is are any of these guys a top 5 pick. I don’t think so at this time but a lot of time before next draft to evaluate these guys.
This whole "see hole, plug hole" with your #1 pick drives me nuts.
I would have just let Eli Manning play in 2019 since he was paid for already, and not drafted Jones and used the picks elsewhere.
And similarly if no QB makes the grade in 2022, I would just leave Jones at QB since he is paid for already and use the picks elsewhere.
So after he lost Toomer and then Petitgout, the Giants went 2-6. I'm sure, 100% sure the injuries had nothing to do with this slide. Also sure many of you wanted him out of the Giants at that point. Jones doesn't have ANYONE healthy! You have to be real with that.
Yea and sure so I guess that means next year instead of Jones getting shown the door he is going to play Tom Brady and the Bucs this time and throw a game winning TD off the top of Shep's helmet right at the Super bowl?
Go watch that clip of Eli
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and kept both.
Who blocks for them since you wouldn't have Thomas?
If we had Herbert we would be set at the position for 15 years. It's the toughest position to fill and has the greatest impact on team success. Look at what Burrow/Herbert have accomplished in less than a season and a half. Look at what Murray has accomplished. They are game changers. And don't tell me the Giants were worse off than the Bengals, Cardinals, and Chargers when those respective QBs were drafted. We all thought those teams were a joke and that we were ahead of them.
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Following this winning streak, key injuries including one to wide receiver Amani Toomer pushed Manning and the Giants into a downward slide.[102] Playing against the Chicago Bears, Manning started well, but the Giants' offense was derailed by the loss of left tackle Luke Petitgout to a broken leg.[103] Manning was held to only 141 yards passing with two interceptions. Petitgout's loss left a gaping hole at the crucial left tackle position, and Manning was unable to repeat his first-half success.[104][105] Manning struggled the next week against the Jacksonville Jaguars[106] and the week after that, a costly interception helped to culminate a huge collapse on the road against the Tennessee Titans, with the Giants seeing a 21-point fourth quarter lead simply evaporate.[107] Manning improved the following week, throwing for 270 yards and two touchdowns against the Dallas Cowboys, but the Giants lost 23–20.[108] Finally regaining momentum, Manning threw three touchdowns in a win on the road against the Carolina Panthers,[109] but then he stumbled badly in the final three games. He threw two interceptions against the Philadelphia Eagles and tallied only 73 passing yards in a game against the New Orleans Saints.[110] Although the Giants battled back to 8–8 the following week on the road against the Washington Redskins, Manning completed only 12 of 26 passes for 101 yards and one touchdown.[111] The Giants qualified for the postseason as the #6-seed and met the Philadelphia Eagles.[112]
So after he lost Toomer and then Petitgout, the Giants went 2-6. I'm sure, 100% sure the injuries had nothing to do with this slide. Also sure many of you wanted him out of the Giants at that point. Jones doesn't have ANYONE healthy! You have to be real with that.
Yea and sure so I guess that means next year instead of Jones getting shown the door he is going to play Tom Brady and the Bucs this time and throw a game winning TD off the top of Shep's helmet right at the Super bowl?
Go watch that clip of Eli
Dude, I can only imagine how bad you wanted Eli off the Giants. Thank goodness you weren't on BBI back then.
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and kept both.
I would have just let Eli Manning play in 2019 since he was paid for already, and not drafted Jones and used the picks elsewhere.
And similarly if no QB makes the grade in 2022, I would just leave Jones at QB since he is paid for already and use the picks elsewhere.
That is a fair enough argument. Probably what I would have done too especially if you thought Herbert would have been your guy if he declared. I would have taken Josh Allen (the pass rusher) at 6.
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and kept both.
I would have just let Eli Manning play in 2019 since he was paid for already, and not drafted Jones and used the picks elsewhere.
And similarly if no QB makes the grade in 2022, I would just leave Jones at QB since he is paid for already and use the picks elsewhere.
100% with you chick. I hated drafting Jones when we had Eli, draft a passrusher! Lets give Eli a shot!
Dude, I can only imagine how bad you wanted Eli off the Giants. Thank goodness you weren't on BBI back then.
Always loved Eli except maybe first few games.
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Dude, I can only imagine how bad you wanted Eli off the Giants. Thank goodness you weren't on BBI back then.
Always loved Eli except maybe first few games.
Fuck that you dipshit, when he lost Petitgout and Toomer, that dude went 2-6! Doesn't he know QBs are supposed to ELEVATE the talent around him? We should have cut that fool and drafted someone better because we know there's someone better in the draft
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Dude, I can only imagine how bad you wanted Eli off the Giants. Thank goodness you weren't on BBI back then.
Always loved Eli except maybe first few games.
Fuck that you dipshit, when he lost Petitgout and Toomer, that dude went 2-6! Doesn't he know QBs are supposed to ELEVATE the talent around him? We should have cut that fool and drafted someone better because we know there's someone better in the draft
How dare we pass on Brady Quinn for Aaron Ross!