I’m seeing a categorical statement that there are no really good QBs coming out. I’d like posters to show a little bit of humility on this point.
After what we’ve seen from Jones in terms of field processing, pocket presence and timing, it’s become really clear that high level QBing that translates to the NFL is difficult to spot. It’s subtle and it requires skillful scouting to detect. In fact, real NFL scouts are constantly making erroneous projections after what I’m sure is extensive work and film viewing.
Two of the best NFL QBs ever, Joe Montana and Drew Brees, we’re physically ordinary and we’re in fact downgraded in the draft. Superb physical prototypes like Jeff George failed utterly.
So spare me any categorical statements about the upcoming class, even if you’ve watched several full college games. I’m not saying that there are or are not future greats in the coming class. I’m saying that after seeing Eli, Kerry Collins and Jones, we should know from experience that making the projection is REALLY HARD. (That’s what she said.)
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In comment 15431735 Producer said:
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and kept both.
I would have just let Eli Manning play in 2019 since he was paid for already, and not drafted Jones and used the picks elsewhere.
And similarly if no QB makes the grade in 2022, I would just leave Jones at QB since he is paid for already and use the picks elsewhere.
That is a fair enough argument. Probably what I would have done too especially if you thought Herbert would have been your guy if he declared. I would have taken Josh Allen (the pass rusher) at 6.
Not sure how the college QB scene will shake out until after the combine next year, but it will be unfortunate if nobody does make the grade. A few talented guys but not sure they are slam dunk first round guys. TBD.
We had two 1st round picks in 2019 and Kyler Murray was the only top prospect. Now we have 2 first round picks again in 2022 and possibly no QB to use them on.
Simply cannot bypass top of the line guys at OL, ER or whatever to pull a QB up undeservedly.
This whole "see hole, plug hole" with your #1 pick drives me nuts.
Who would have manned the LT spot in the meantime?
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and you look for the LT in '21 or '22.
This whole "see hole, plug hole" with your #1 pick drives me nuts.
Who would have manned the LT spot in the meantime?
What kind of rationale is that?
If the Chargers called today and offered Herbert for Jones and Thomas, you wouldn't take that deal?
Then you have Pickett and Strong are they top 10 picks? Why not?
Maybe you get a Howell who goes rd 3?
I mean there is a chance someone develops but none of it makes me feel like, that's the guy. At least not yet.
This thing you have with Herbert is borderline obsessive at this point. Get over it man. He plays for another team.
This thing you have with Herbert is borderline obsessive at this point. Get over it man. He plays for another team.
If Jones is our quarterback that is very damning of the organization. I will say that what Jones is signed for we don't have to force a QB in 2022 although if there is someone we see as better than Jones available then you most definitely pull the trigger.
The hype over Justin Fields was ridiculous. The fact some in this thread want to spout "well Judge had this guy available and they didn't take him" nonsense when, 1) how do you know? You don't know how little or big of studying they've put into those 1st rd picks and 2) the Giants had issues all over in including WR despite adding Golladay. Toney is a potential #1 and they landed another 1st which may very well be top ten. And we're knocking that? Over the 2021 class which had numerous holes? The draft is a damn dart board. None of them were coming in and lighting it up with this OL and receiver lineup that's in and out with injuries.
If the Chargers called today and offered Herbert for Jones and Thomas, you wouldn't take that deal?
Probably not to be honest. I'd rather have the trenches set, which I see Thomas as being a big part of going forward. If Jones proves to not be the guy over the course of his rookie deal then move on. In the meantime, build the trenches, get other pieces in place, and if need be, go get the QB after Jones's 4th/5th year.
This whole "see hole, plug hole" with your #1 pick drives me nuts.
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and you look for the LT in '21 or '22.
This whole "see hole, plug hole" with your #1 pick drives me nuts.
Herbert probably would have been the Giants pick had he gone into the draft after his Junior season. He didn't, so the Giants went a different direction. The coach and the GM see DJ everyday, and they saw enough in him they didn't believe they needed to draft another QB the following year. Consequently, Herbert is not the Giants QB; time to get over it.
I'll say it again, Judge believes in Jones imo. Unless Jones has a meltdown this year, they aren't moving on.
Didn't you just tell people what they should do lol? Pot calling kettle?
You told people to stay off threads, why? We will all do as we please, just like you said you would.
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and you look for the LT in '21 or '22.
This whole "see hole, plug hole" with your #1 pick drives me nuts.
Herbert probably would have been the Giants pick had he gone into the draft after his Junior season. He didn't, so the Giants went a different direction. The coach and the GM see DJ everyday, and they saw enough in him they didn't believe they needed to draft another QB the following year. Consequently, Herbert is not the Giants QB; time to get over it.
There's a big difference between preferring JH over DJ before you draft either one of them vs. preferring JH over DJ after you already spent a top-10 pick on DJ.
The sunk cost wasn't sunk. It still isn't sunk; that's kind of the nature of the Giants' approach to the draft (it's cute that anyone ever thinks they're purely BPA, when they're clearly not).
Had they skipped DJ in 2019, they almost definitely would have taken JH in 2020, if we're believing the supposed high grades they had on him in 2019 when he didn't declare.
That said, we probably would have taken Josh Allen (the edge, not the QB) in 2019, which would mean that we'd still be without a bonafide OLT right now. So it begs the question: would you rather have Herbert and Allen, or Jones and Thomas?
I'd prefer Herbert over Jones without question. But I really would prefer Thomas over Allen, so it's not totally a no-brainer, IMO.
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of the Giants should've done something else, eg not drafted Jones, etc, you should probably avoid the threads. They're not going away and cheerleading won't change those minds either.
I doubt five consecutive super bowl victories would change the minds of the big three. Shocking how much time and energy they can devote to being unhappy.
Are they wrong? We are one of the worst teams in the NFL for the past half-decade. Why that's worthy of praise is beyond me.
If he faces one ceiling Jake Fromm
Willis- really this is a joke right, reminds me of the hype over that kid from Buffalo a few years back
Corral - can you say Manziel
Slovis - just horrible another USC disaster
Howell- don’t mind him seems like a Minishew
Ratler- probably will have best combine. But lacks the mental capaibilty
Hartman - unknown but I can see him surge as the season goes on, doing well at Wake
King- no
Arizona isn't the only example. The Giants and WFT both had a shot at Herbert after missing with Jones and Haskins. The Giants AGAIN had a shot at Justin Fields AND Mac Jones and passed. They'll likely have opportunities to draft a good QB prospect again in this upcoming draft. It's relatively easy to pivot off a mistake.
The Giants are 2-5 and have the 25th scoring offense in the league. What are we clinging to here?
Herbert having a good rookie season has completely caused a shit ton of revisionist thinking. Nobody was pounding the table for Herbert last season and not one single person thought that the Giants would move off of Jones after his rookie season. Not one. But Herbert shows that he’s the goods and now you kill the Giants for not taking him. Herbert didn’t even go top 5 so apparently plenty of teams were skeptical. Yet the Giants are now idiots for not drafting him. You’re completely clueless on how the real world works. There was a ZERO percent chance they were drafting a QB that high after taking Jones the previous season.
And they don’t give a shit what what GoTerps thinks about Jones. Or that he thinks they should just continue to draft every QB prospect in the draft because he doesn’t like Jones.
If he faces one ceiling Jake Fromm
Willis- really this is a joke right, reminds me of the hype over that kid from Buffalo a few years back
Corral - can you say Manziel
Slovis - just horrible another USC disaster
Howell- don’t mind him seems like a Minishew
Ratler- probably will have best combine. But lacks the mental capaibilty
Hartman - unknown but I can see him surge as the season goes on, doing well at Wake
King- no
What about Ridder or Strong? Would have liked to have seen how Jurkovec (QB for Boston College) progressed this year, but unfortunately got hurt early on and was done for the year.
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Pickett - was mediocre every year, playing with a line full of 5th year seniors and two WRs that extended do to covid. And he is putting up good stats. Unimpressive QB overall. Let’s see how he does against a real tea
If he faces one ceiling Jake Fromm
Willis- really this is a joke right, reminds me of the hype over that kid from Buffalo a few years back
Corral - can you say Manziel
Slovis - just horrible another USC disaster
Howell- don’t mind him seems like a Minishew
Ratler- probably will have best combine. But lacks the mental capaibilty
Hartman - unknown but I can see him surge as the season goes on, doing well at Wake
King- no
What about Ridder or Strong? Would have liked to have seen how Jurkovec (QB for Boston College) progressed this year, but unfortunately got hurt early on and was done for the year.
I haven't seen enough of Corral, but I like Ridder. the Cinci RB also looks like an NFL player. I have no idea where he'll get drafted but I like his game.
For the uninformed, Pitt just steamrolled Clemson, who have the 3rd rated defense in PPG allowed at 14.6.
So what if the lights finally went on for Pickett? Can you name one of his OL, WRs, or RBs?
Joe Burrow did nothing noteworthy at LSU until his last year. And when he popped he was throwing to Chase, Jefferson, Winslow, etc. And handing the ball off to Edwards-Helaire.
Oh, and 14 total LSU players were drafted in 2020.
But let's talk about all the wonderful assets Pickett has in his 5th year...JFC.
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Pickett - was mediocre every year, playing with a line full of 5th year seniors and two WRs that extended do to covid. And he is putting up good stats. Unimpressive QB overall. Let’s see how he does against a real tea
For the uninformed, Pitt just steamrolled Clemson, who have the 3rd rated defense in PPG allowed at 14.6.
So what if the lights finally went on for Pickett? Can you name one of his OL, WRs, or RBs?
Joe Burrow did nothing noteworthy at LSU until his last year. And when he popped he was throwing to Chase, Jefferson, Winslow, etc. And handing the ball off to Edwards-Helaire.
Oh, and 14 total LSU players were drafted in 2020.
But let's talk about all the wonderful assets Pickett has in his 5th year...JFC.
Burrow was a much more highly touted recruit than Pickett and his Junior year was better than anything Pickett had done prior to this year after not playing much in prior two years so it is not a great comparison.
Again, not a big supporter and include me in the group that thought he was overdrafted and the team would have been much better off drafting Josh Allen the pass rusher and maybe Jones at 17 or Josh Allen instead of Barkley or best case, drafting Herbert and trading Jones. I am totally convinced that Herbert would have succeeded with this crap OL and fairly convinced that Josh Allen would have also. Still, saying something like Jones better do it this year or else is ignoring that he’s no Herbert or Allen but forget about fairness, it’s not smart or useful to evaluate Jones behind this garbage.
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In comment 15431743 JonC said:
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and you look for the LT in '21 or '22.
This whole "see hole, plug hole" with your #1 pick drives me nuts.
Herbert probably would have been the Giants pick had he gone into the draft after his Junior season. He didn't, so the Giants went a different direction. The coach and the GM see DJ everyday, and they saw enough in him they didn't believe they needed to draft another QB the following year. Consequently, Herbert is not the Giants QB; time to get over it.
There's a big difference between preferring JH over DJ before you draft either one of them vs. preferring JH over DJ after you already spent a top-10 pick on DJ.
Burrow was a much more highly touted recruit than Pickett and his Junior year was better than anything Pickett had done prior to this year after not playing much in prior two years so it is not a great comparison.
I'm not talking about their recruiting status out of high school.
Burrow completed 57% of his passes his junior year for 16TDs and 5 INTs. And Chase, Jefferson, Helaire, Marshall, etc were there as weapons.
Pickett's top WR is a true sophomore - Jordan Addison.
It's just a general point to consider that sometimes things finally click and that shouldn't be a red flag. IMV.
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In comment 15431819 Beer Man said:
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In comment 15431743 JonC said:
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and you look for the LT in '21 or '22.
This whole "see hole, plug hole" with your #1 pick drives me nuts.
Herbert probably would have been the Giants pick had he gone into the draft after his Junior season. He didn't, so the Giants went a different direction. The coach and the GM see DJ everyday, and they saw enough in him they didn't believe they needed to draft another QB the following year. Consequently, Herbert is not the Giants QB; time to get over it.
There's a big difference between preferring JH over DJ before you draft either one of them vs. preferring JH over DJ after you already spent a top-10 pick on DJ.
I'm not sure what the point is. DG personally scouted JH during his junior season. The speculation was that DG was going all in on JH that year. But JH decided to return to school and so the Giants went with DJ. You don't hold back on a guy you like to gamble that someone you like better may still be on the board when you draft the following year.
Of course you hold back drafting an inferior prospect if you value an elite prospect the next year. This isn't running back. It's QB. This is the choice that makes or breaks your franchise.
That's not true -- a few mentioned that we should explore the possibility. The search isn't ideal here, for sure, but it still took me just a few seconds to find this thread.
Should we draft Herbert and listen to offers? - ( New Window )
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Nobody was pounding the table for Herbert last season and not one single person thought that the Giants would move off of Jones after his rookie season. Not one.
That's not true -- a few mentioned that we should explore the possibility. The search isn't ideal here, for sure, but it still took me just a few seconds to find this thread. Should we draft Herbert and listen to offers? - ( New Window )
Good link and read.
Jersey guy with a bit of surf punk look...
But Pickett grew up an hour south of MetLife. So that may offset the unkempt look...
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In comment 15431839 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15431819 Beer Man said:
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In comment 15431743 JonC said:
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and you look for the LT in '21 or '22.
This whole "see hole, plug hole" with your #1 pick drives me nuts.
Herbert probably would have been the Giants pick had he gone into the draft after his Junior season. He didn't, so the Giants went a different direction. The coach and the GM see DJ everyday, and they saw enough in him they didn't believe they needed to draft another QB the following year. Consequently, Herbert is not the Giants QB; time to get over it.
There's a big difference between preferring JH over DJ before you draft either one of them vs. preferring JH over DJ after you already spent a top-10 pick on DJ.
I'm not sure what the point is. DG personally scouted JH during his junior season. The speculation was that DG was going all in on JH that year. But JH decided to return to school and so the Giants went with DJ. You don't hold back on a guy you like to gamble that someone you like better may still be on the board when you draft the following year.
Of course you hold back drafting an inferior prospect if you value an elite prospect the next year. This isn't running back. It's QB. This is the choice that makes or breaks your franchise.
Well put. JonC typically does a nice job of keeping it real on these threads...
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Nobody was pounding the table for Herbert last season and not one single person thought that the Giants would move off of Jones after his rookie season. Not one.
That's not true -- a few mentioned that we should explore the possibility. The search isn't ideal here, for sure, but it still took me just a few seconds to find this thread. Should we draft Herbert and listen to offers? - ( New Window )
Nice find! So I guess I was off. ONE poster was adamant about his feelings for drafting Herbert, JonC. Great job by him. I seen some lukewarm praise of Herbert from others and the possibility they MAY be open to the idea but certainly not the conviction we see now. The after the fact outrage is ludicrous and that thread pretty much confirms my point. I was off by one.
JonC nailed it. Great job by him on that thread.
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Nobody was pounding the table for Herbert last season and not one single person thought that the Giants would move off of Jones after his rookie season. Not one.
That's not true -- a few mentioned that we should explore the possibility. The search isn't ideal here, for sure, but it still took me just a few seconds to find this thread. Should we draft Herbert and listen to offers? - ( New Window )
JonC : 1/27/2020 10:22 am : link
and trade Jones.
JonC : 1/27/2020 10:33 am : link
I like Jones, and hope I'm wrong, but I'm not so sure he's the QB to lead us to championships. His current red flags need a ton of work, and some of it looks like passer instincts he doesn't have. I think DG/Shurmur/NYG overreacted (again) and reached for him based on the Cutcliffe/Eli factor rather than his actual NFL upside. Shurmur was apparently the catalyst for the pick, and he was already feeling job pressure. After the Jones pick I even said I expected Shurmur to be gone in 2019, and then what? Here we are now.
BBS,
1. I clicked respond on your post and walked away for a minute, so I didn't see your second post until after I sent mine.
2. I actually did not mean to try and refute what you said or anything like that, merely compliment Jon on a good call.
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Read the post above yours. I acknowledged JonC.
BBS,
1. I clicked respond on your post and walked away for a minute, so I didn't see your second post until after I sent mine.
2. I actually did not mean to try and refute what you said or anything like that, merely compliment Jon on a good call.
Yeah I know. It’s all good.
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Nobody was pounding the table for Herbert last season and not one single person thought that the Giants would move off of Jones after his rookie season. Not one.
That's not true -- a few mentioned that we should explore the possibility. The search isn't ideal here, for sure, but it still took me just a few seconds to find this thread. Should we draft Herbert and listen to offers? - ( New Window )
Great thread from the archives! Couple of posts I copied from that thread below that I enjoyed reading again. Almost 2 years ago and still reads like it was yesterday as to what was going on.
Oh, and I kept the names the same to protect the innocent...
:-)
Jimmy Googs : 1/27/2020 5:32 pm : link
In comment 14795680 Giants38 said:
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In comment 14795439 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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it. What the fuck does this have to do with anything?
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Show me what Gettleman has done that lets you know he unequivocally deserves to the GM of this franchise moving forward.
What do you and I "showing" anything mean? Gettleman is the GM of this franchise. Calling him a shitbag or railing on every thread about him doesn't change that. And if you think it does - it only leads me to think you're more fucking delusional than your posts indicate.
A better request would be show me where you are qualified to judge the competency of a GM or can ascertain who deserves any position in the NFL. And calling a guy shitbag for kicks doesn't count, Bub.
So because I am not a GM, but Gettleman is, I am simply not permitted to question his moves? Because that is basically the way your post reads.
If I do not like something Gettleman does, I have every right to question the moves he has made. Every team - or at least most teams - in the NFL are run by "football people". But that doesn't make their moves unassailable. GMs get it wrong; in fact, they often do. It's why teams will fire coaches and GMs and still pay them the millions they are owed on their deals.
If you would like to engage in an educated discussion with me, I am more than happy to do so. It beats reading you curse every fifth word or tell me I am wrong and he is right because he is the GM, and I am not. That is as self-serving a statement as they come.
Well, you went a bit further than questioning DG's moves, you questioned whether he deserves to be a GM altogether.
Don't get me wrong...FMiC is a chucklehead but my guess is he jumped on you because you went a "bridge too far" with that type of comment.
Question anything you want, its all fair game at this point with the state of the franchise. But remember the Defenders of the Faith are sitting out there waiting to pounce like tigger...
bw in dc : 1/27/2020 5:52 pm : link
In comment 14795680 Giants38 said:
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So because I am not a GM, but Gettleman is, I am simply not permitted to question his moves? Because that is basically the way your post reads.
The resistance movement that springs into action when anyone dare question the actions of Gettleman is one of the more interesting phenomena I've ever seen at BBI.
You would think he was on the Mount Rushmore of GMs they way he is defended. That he shares that side of the mountain with the likes of either Belichick, Dick Haley, Bill Walsh, Ozzie Newsome, Bill Polian, etc.
At best, his career GM record is a C; and so far with the Giants he is either an F or an INC leaning hard to an F.
During his years as a starter, Duke went to two bowl games and won both.
During that same period up to the 2019 NFL draft ONE player from Duke was selected, that was Jones. No other player on that team during his tenure was drafted. That's a worse outcome than what Josh Allen had in Wyoming