I’m seeing a categorical statement that there are no really good QBs coming out. I’d like posters to show a little bit of humility on this point.
After what we’ve seen from Jones in terms of field processing, pocket presence and timing, it’s become really clear that high level QBing that translates to the NFL is difficult to spot. It’s subtle and it requires skillful scouting to detect. In fact, real NFL scouts are constantly making erroneous projections after what I’m sure is extensive work and film viewing.
Two of the best NFL QBs ever, Joe Montana and Drew Brees, we’re physically ordinary and we’re in fact downgraded in the draft. Superb physical prototypes like Jeff George failed utterly.
So spare me any categorical statements about the upcoming class, even if you’ve watched several full college games. I’m not saying that there are or are not future greats in the coming class. I’m saying that after seeing Eli, Kerry Collins and Jones, we should know from experience that making the projection is REALLY HARD. (That’s what she said.)
During his years as a starter, Duke went to two bowl games and won both.
During that same period up to the 2019 NFL draft ONE player from Duke was selected, that was Jones. No other player on that team during his tenure was drafted. That's a worse outcome than what Josh Allen had in Wyoming
So he was drafted because he had excuses in college too?
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In comment 15431503 Essex said:
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Kenny Pickett is nowhere near as good as Jones. He is a 23 year old kid playing in a Mickey Mouse conference and never had exceptional numbers besides this year. Is he a good college QB? This year he certainly is. Is he a good NFL QB? Not sure where you get that from
Nowhere near as good. Now that's funny. Please stop confusing Jones with Elway at Stanford.
You don't think Clemson still has a high caliber defense? Let me answer that for you - they do. And Pickett lit them up for 300+, 2 TD/0 INT, a 90 QBR.
Did it ever occur to that the light finally went off for Pickett and now he gets it? Happened for Burrow...
it happened for Burrow.
and didn't happen for about 100 other QBs who have turned out to be busts.
Burrow's outcome is pretty unique and in large part due to the fact that the only reason he transferred in the first place was because he was stuck behind another QB good enough to break a bunch of records and get picked in the first round. Had he played earlier he likely would have succeeded earlier.
Still boggles the mind that Burrow couldn't beat out Dwayne Haskins.
From what I've seen, I like Corral. I wanna see more of him & Pickett, but if either are there when we're up...well, that's a tough decision. I'd lean taking one of 'em because as much as I want DJ to succeed, I don't know if he's the answer. And by now we should know.
Have not seen Strong play can’t really comment
Ridder looks promising, looks like he can be good in the right system. Little inconsistent with his accuracy put him around the A&M kid that came out last year. Forget his name
Jurkovich was the kid I wanted to see this year. Looked real strong in his move from ND. If Book didn’t stay, I could see this kid really lighting up this year in south bend. Big arm, accurate, and stands tall in pocket. Similar to Big Ben when he was in the MAC
The hype over Justin Fields was ridiculous. The fact some in this thread want to spout "well Judge had this guy available and they didn't take him" nonsense when, 1) how do you know? You don't know how little or big of studying they've put into those 1st rd picks and 2) the Giants had issues all over in including WR despite adding Golladay. Toney is a potential #1 and they landed another 1st which may very well be top ten. And we're knocking that? Over the 2021 class which had numerous holes? The draft is a damn dart board. None of them were coming in and lighting it up with this OL and receiver lineup that's in and out with injuries.
I haven't seen anything out of Fields yet that says I wish he were in blue.
Jones showed me this past week that I was wrong about him being in the Kent Graham tier of "can start a few games for you", because a Kent Graham tier QB would not have won the game this past Sunday. I still don't know what we have in him, but at least I think if he builds on Sunday, he can at least be a fungible starter in this league.
The problem is, fungible starter just isn't enough unless he stays cheap.
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QB is not even the 2nd or 3rd most urgent need in the upcoming draft. Want to throw the dice on a later round project QB? That's the only way I see giants picking one.
A team this bereft of talent shouldn't be drafting for "need" anyway. They need to improve at virtually every position on the field.
If Jones isn't part of the solution, that especially needs to be addressed before he gets to be a very expensive "not the problem".
So if you have a car with engine trouble, a busted fuel line and a bent tire rod, you would replace a perfectly good transmission ahead of the parts that need fixing based solely on availability? 🙄
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In comment 15431502 TJ said:
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QB is not even the 2nd or 3rd most urgent need in the upcoming draft. Want to throw the dice on a later round project QB? That's the only way I see giants picking one.
A team this bereft of talent shouldn't be drafting for "need" anyway. They need to improve at virtually every position on the field.
If Jones isn't part of the solution, that especially needs to be addressed before he gets to be a very expensive "not the problem".
So if you have a car with engine trouble, a busted fuel line and a bent tire rod, you would replace a perfectly good transmission ahead of the parts that need fixing based solely on availability? 🙄
Using logic on this board is frowned upon
Have not seen Strong play can’t really comment
Ridder looks promising, looks like he can be good in the right system. Little inconsistent with his accuracy put him around the A&M kid that came out last year. Forget his name
Jurkovich was the kid I wanted to see this year. Looked real strong in his move from ND. If Book didn’t stay, I could see this kid really lighting up this year in south bend. Big arm, accurate, and stands tall in pocket. Similar to Big Ben when he was in the MAC
Jurkovich got hurt and has basically missed the year with a hand injury.
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Asked about strong, ridder and jurkovich.
Have not seen Strong play can’t really comment
Ridder looks promising, looks like he can be good in the right system. Little inconsistent with his accuracy put him around the A&M kid that came out last year. Forget his name
Jurkovich was the kid I wanted to see this year. Looked real strong in his move from ND. If Book didn’t stay, I could see this kid really lighting up this year in south bend. Big arm, accurate, and stands tall in pocket. Similar to Big Ben when he was in the MAC
Jurkovich got hurt and has basically missed the year with a hand injury.
Transferred to BC last year when Book decided to come back. Player well at BC last year. Even against Clemsons better D last year. Started this season well, and got injured early. Would have liked to see him for a full year in the BC system.
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In comment 15431848 BigBlueShock said:
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Nobody was pounding the table for Herbert last season and not one single person thought that the Giants would move off of Jones after his rookie season. Not one.
That's not true -- a few mentioned that we should explore the possibility. The search isn't ideal here, for sure, but it still took me just a few seconds to find this thread. Should we draft Herbert and listen to offers? - ( New Window )
Nice find! So I guess I was off. ONE poster was adamant about his feelings for drafting Herbert, JonC. Great job by him. I seen some lukewarm praise of Herbert from others and the possibility they MAY be open to the idea but certainly not the conviction we see now. The after the fact outrage is ludicrous and that thread pretty much confirms my point. I was off by one.
JonC nailed it. Great job by him on that thread.
No, lax counsel said so as well. And I'm pretty sure I remember others advocating it, but it's just difficult to find. I'm only searching for archived threads with Herbert in the title here, and I'm not clicking on all of them.
another thread - ( New Window )
And if you think Herbert vs Jones debate is already settled on how their careers are going to turn out, that would be a mistake.
I’d be looking at all positions with an eye toward front 7 and OL.
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It wasn't his fault at Duke, but that's not a reason to draft him either.
There was no proof of Jones's capability to even be a top shelf college player, yet the Giants drafted him 6th overall. Incredible.
Jones had essentially the same career that Lamar Jackson had in college. Do you think Lamar Jackson had a good college career?
And - you're a complete moron if you think there was "no proof" of Jones being a top shelf college player. He was a 1st round draft pick by every single stretch of the imagination. Did we pick him 10 slots early? Maybe. Who the fuck cares man. Get over it.
In no way, like literally no way, did "Daniel Jones and Lamar Jackson have the same career in college".
I mean it's so obvious that are you not a viewer of college ball, you don't even remotely follow it.
From what I've seen, I like Corral. I wanna see more of him & Pickett, but if either are there when we're up...well, that's a tough decision. I'd lean taking one of 'em because as much as I want DJ to succeed, I don't know if he's the answer. And by now we should know.
Jones will never approach Cousins. Not even close.
If you want to keep talking about Justin Herbert I suggest doing that on the Chargers message board.
And if you think Herbert vs Jones debate is already settled on how their careers are going to turn out, that would be a mistake.
Herbert is a transcendent player. We should all feel unfortunate we didn't get someone with that many tools.
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DJ started at Duke from 2016 (part of the season) to 2019.
During his years as a starter, Duke went to two bowl games and won both.
During that same period up to the 2019 NFL draft ONE player from Duke was selected, that was Jones. No other player on that team during his tenure was drafted. That's a worse outcome than what Josh Allen had in Wyoming
So he was drafted because he had excuses in college too?
"Excuses", WTF are you talking about?
The whole point is to show that despite no supporting cast he accomplished quite a bit in College despite the silly arguments that he did not, and the point regarding Josh Allen was that we heard the same exact arguments on BBI that he did nothing in college while ignoring the fact that football is a team sport.
You're flailing a bit with your bias.
He's 6'6" 235lb Dan Marino...but more mobile.
Not sure there is a better word to capture that ability other than transcendent.
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You guys will be talking about Herbert for the next 5 years, probably everyday.
And if you think Herbert vs Jones debate is already settled on how their careers are going to turn out, that would be a mistake.
Herbert is a transcendent player. We should all feel unfortunate we didn't get someone with that many tools.
What is hilarious though, are the snap judgements on Jones...based on what?
The dogshit offense he was surrounded in year 2? So, we level up our talent for year 3..but none of the new additions(or re-additions-->Barley)..can practice, play, do anything. Did you expect those upgrades to just come out on fire first few weeks? Golladay dinged, no camp..Toney and Barkely misssing camp, even Rudolph(who doesn't belong in the conversation with the others) didn't do anyting.
Before the season starts, right before..you have Jordan Rannan saying it looks like it will take Golladay some time to get up to speed..that he didn't look like he was all the way back. So our top addition comes in gimpy. Same with Barkley, same with Toney.
I said before the season started, that I thought it would take awhile for the offense to get the new pieces integrated because of this scenario. Barkely was being brought along slowley..as was Toney(coming off all the missed time and being a rookie). I was thinking the first month could be bumpy..it was, not entirely shocking. Then the wheels start coming off..all the new additions, plus Shepard(our incumbent best WR) start dropping.
Let Jones finish the year before making the snap judgements..it's ridiculous. He was playing well before the players got hurt..maybe not as well as you'd hope(redzone)..but he was being recognized for it outside of Giants land.
Herberts a great player, no doubt..but quarterbacks don't play in a vacuum..he's had his guys out there with him and the Chargers skill players are one of the stronger groups going. Having a top 3 of Williams, Keenan Allen and Austin austin ekeler..(Hunter Henry a year ago) is just a shade better than what Jone's gets to play with each week.
If you think having weapons to throw to doesn't matter just go back to the 2008 playoffs post plax incident...QBs can't will practice squad WRs open against starting caliber corners.
Do you recall a player of Herbert's size, athleticism, and throwing ability? And doing it so well so early in their career?
Not sure why pointing that out, and describing it, creates so much consternation.
That's quite the rounding error.
You know Daniel Jones, Kyler Murray, we'd be the same team with either player.
I am biased. I'm biased against the Giants playing shitty football and making poor decisions that lead to them playing shitty football.
The Giants have been and continue to be indisputably terrible. Why is it offensive to dig deep into the reasons why? What is the alternative? Break down the football they play each week? Ugh...
I feel bad for Jones. It's not his fault he was hugely overdrafted.
Can we just let him play out the final 10 games and then reconvene to give our opinions on what the Giants need to do at QB going forward.Why would anyone want to draft Josh Allen at number 43??
I keep on telling myself to stay out of these DJ bashing threads but somehow I get pulled back into them.I'm out!!!
Can we just let him play out the final 10 games and then reconvene to give our opinions on what the Giants need to do at QB going forward.Why would anyone want to draft Josh Allen at number 43??
I keep on telling myself to stay out of these DJ bashing threads but somehow I get pulled back into them.I'm out!!!
The option to draft neither of them existed too. They'd already committed to paying Eli, so they didn't need to draft a QB, and certainly not 6th overall.
Can we just let him play out the final 10 games and then reconvene to give our opinions on what the Giants need to do at QB going forward.Why would anyone want to draft Josh Allen at number 43??
I keep on telling myself to stay out of these DJ bashing threads but somehow I get pulled back into them.I'm out!!!
Plus we should have drafted Tua instead of Herbert. So the stats tell a story but not the whole story. Terps, I appreciate the stats and they aren't in Jones' favor. He may not be our guy but I'm giving him this season and I want to see him with a full (close to) squad, especially Thomas back. We are seeing Mahomes lose now due to poor OL and defensive play. There are outside factors.
We see a blue chip QB in this draft AND we are in position to draft him, ok we can talk. But I don't think any of those variables will line up.
So, there can be down years and there can be droughts if you're looking for elite QB's. So, be prepared. We may have to re-sign Daniel Jones, eventhough he looks very average.
Or Willis. Or Corral.
Let me echo what others have said already, the OP is an exercise in circular logic. If--according to my good friend comsicj--none of us can evaluate QB talent than we should all shut the fuck up about it. Period. Exclamation point! No need for five pages of discussion on something of which we are all clueless, right? Question mark?
I feel bad for Jones. It's not his fault he was hugely overdrafted.
This is not necessarily meant for you, but since it sort of ties in I thought I would quote this post.
As a rookie, Daniel Jones had a 5.2% TD rate. If he had that rate this year he would have been ranked 14th ahead of some players mentioned elsewhere in this thread. His INT% was worse, but he was also a rookie so even if he cut that from 2.6% to 2.0% that puts him tied for 17th or so (he is currently at 1.7% but I think a little more aggressiveness might lead to a slight bump). It is not like he suddenly forgot where the end zone is and it is also not like he had that much more talent his rookie year. Barkley was nicked up a few games and their best WR's were Darius Slayton (who would probably be WR4 at best this year if everyone was healthy) and the illustrious Golden Tate. The only WR to play more than 14 games - Cody Latimer. Now it is possible that Daniel Jones gets gunshy if he is focused on cutting down turnovers, but it is also not like he has had a lot of opportunities to make plays especially if coaches don't give a lot of audibles for whatever reason (with a patchwork OL maybe they don't trust it would hold up). The playcalling lacks any creativity in the red zone or using natural rub routes to get guys open in the passing game. We have TE reverses, run up the gut even though that is the weakest part of our OL, and rollouts to the one receiver side. BBI could probably design a better playbook than Jason Garrett which is odd because there were great plays leading up to the red zone against New Orleans. I wonder how much is also Joe Judge is too conservative at times for today's NFL. Nobody is saying he needs to be "Riverboat Ron" or always go for it on 4th down, but around the 30-35 he is too petrified of getting knocked out of FG range he would rather take the FG than taking the shot at the first down and go for the TD if it meant that from time to time you would need to punt. That takes away red zone opportunities for Jones to pass for a TD.
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In comment 15431819 Beer Man said:
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In comment 15431743 JonC said:
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and you look for the LT in '21 or '22.
This whole "see hole, plug hole" with your #1 pick drives me nuts.
Herbert probably would have been the Giants pick had he gone into the draft after his Junior season. He didn't, so the Giants went a different direction. The coach and the GM see DJ everyday, and they saw enough in him they didn't believe they needed to draft another QB the following year. Consequently, Herbert is not the Giants QB; time to get over it.
There's a big difference between preferring JH over DJ before you draft either one of them vs. preferring JH over DJ after you already spent a top-10 pick on DJ.
I'm not sure what the point is. DG personally scouted JH during his junior season. The speculation was that DG was going all in on JH that year. But JH decided to return to school and so the Giants went with DJ. You don't hold back on a guy you like to gamble that someone you like better may still be on the board when you draft the following year.
Why not?
If you're already picking up the option on you franchise legend incumbent, and you feel strongly about Herbert over Jones, why not wait a year to get the guy you really love instead of talking yourself into the best option available?
Worst case scenario, you have to leverage some current/future draft capital to go get your guy a year later, but you still end up getting your guy. And at the QB position, that's incredibly important.
That's what Accorsi had that DG lacks. Accorsi had a conviction on Eli and he was willing to go get him. If DG truly liked Herbert more than Jones, waiting a year and continuing to build would have made sense, especially since they had already committed the cap dollars to Eli for 2019.
Eli Manning would have been way down that list.
Eli Manning would have been way down that list.
It's projected pretty well for Jones so far.
So let me ask you - why do you think The Giants drafted Jones?
Eli Manning would have been way down that list.
And on the reverse side is Phil Simms. Simms didn't even sniff the playoffs in college, lost more than half his games, threw more interceptions than touchdowns. Yet the Giants saw enough potential in him to draft him in the first round and while it took a few years, he took off.
I'm definitely not a Jones supporter. I've read many of your posts in the past and have disagreed with the vast majority of your opinions but at least they were fairly rooted in reality.
However the last few days, many of your posts defending Jones are really off the rails crazy.
Lol at the company Jones keeps at the bottom of that list. Not encouraging.
As I said the other day, Jones is going to leave the Giants and settle into a nice career as an NFL backup. When that happens, how many losses he gets under his belt, and how much money he earned before that day is up to the Giants.
Eli Manning would have been way down that list.
Ryan, the chart doesn't include success in terms of wins/losses, only QB stats.
If this has little to do with NFL projection, then what are the major ones that do in your view?
And what I'm seeing is a guy who has improved his decision making and his turnovers. He's getting out of the pocket more. His movement is better. He's seeing the field better. We've had about 10 players this year that would have been huge if not for breakdowns on the OL, which is not Jones' fault. He carried us at Washington, carried us at New Orleans, and just played a really good game against a top 10 defense with literally, nobody on the OL and no skill players, and won by 20+ points.
He isn't throwing enough touchdown passes, and that's what people keep harping on. Well....he didn't all of a sudden forget how to do that. It's about personnel, red zone efficiency, play calling, everything.
Jones is improving this year, and will continue to improve as we get our guys back. Not sure what else to say.
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no offense, that chart means nothing. But thanks for sharing. College success at the QB position has little to do with NFL projection.
Eli Manning would have been way down that list.
It's projected pretty well for Jones so far.
So let me ask you - why do you think The Giants drafted Jones?
The Giants drafted Jones because they thought he was a franchise 12+ year QB who had the correct makeup and ability to be a championship quarterback and leader. They saw something in him and made the decision. Yeah - did it help that he was in the same circle as Eli? Sure. But it has nothing to do with college stats. College stats are for losers, quite honestly. We'd draft every quarterback from Hawaii or Texas Tech or whatever the hell school puts up a million points every year if that were the case.
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In comment 15431519 rsjem1979 said:
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In comment 15431502 TJ said:
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QB is not even the 2nd or 3rd most urgent need in the upcoming draft. Want to throw the dice on a later round project QB? That's the only way I see giants picking one.
A team this bereft of talent shouldn't be drafting for "need" anyway. They need to improve at virtually every position on the field.
If Jones isn't part of the solution, that especially needs to be addressed before he gets to be a very expensive "not the problem".
So if you have a car with engine trouble, a busted fuel line and a bent tire rod, you would replace a perfectly good transmission ahead of the parts that need fixing based solely on availability? 🙄
Using logic on this board is frowned upon
Most definitely. It’s unbearable sometimes.