"Incompetent" "Horrible" "Worst GM in the league..."
You people make me laugh. In his 4 years as Giants GM Pro Football Focus has DG WAY above average.
Pro Football focus "Regrading the Draft"
Because this forum has very limited tools, you'll have to cut and paste the URLs yourselves if you wish to read the articles...
2018: Average
https://www.pff.com/news/regrading-the-2018-nfl-draft-classes-ravens-bills-and-buccaneers-among-nfls-biggest-winners
2019:Average
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-regrading-2019-nfl-draft-classes-tennessee-titans-san-francisco-49ers
2020: A
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-regrading-2020-nfl-draft-classes-tampa-bay-buccaneers-minnesota-vikings
2021: B+
https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2021-nfl-draft-grades-all-32-teams
However in the Solder case I think it was more Mara than anything else. Everyone knew our OL was pathetic and people were screaming that we needed to upgrade our OL. Solder at the time was a highly regarded LT so it made sense to go and grab him, he was the best FA OL on the market. Did we overpay - yes, but thats what you do in FA. And I have a feeling DG was looking for any way possible to upgrade the OL and appease the owners.
Same thing with Golladay "We need to get DJ more weapons .... "
We draft guys that don't mesh well with what we are trying to do or draft too many guys at a position (our hybrid 3/4 DT/DE) that cannot really change the outcome of a game because this is a passing league and you need PASS RUSHERS and grabs guys- SB who cannot produce without the OLINE that he has failed miserably at building.
So please, tell me again how great DG is!
Or does the NFL go by win loss record and then play playoff games?
Maybe he's Hanlon's nephew...
I hope he keeps the handle.
Case Closed!
Case Closed!
This is all that matters. There's no defending the guy anymore. His sales pitch was rebuilding the offensive and defensive lines, and we arguably have the worst of each.
Case Closed!
Its fuckin real hard to lose this much in the NFL
So the suggestion for the OP is just to keep doing what you are doing and hope at some point it just results in a different outcome? There may be a word for that...
OP is a lunatic
And even if it was, having an "average" draft when you have the #2 overall pick, #34 overall pick, and two third round picks is not good. Personally, I think the 2018 draft was a complete train wreck, both philosophically and in execution.
Like the 2018 draft, the 2019 draft that was initially "above average" was revised down to "average". And the 2020 draft that was initially an A was revised down to a B.
And as others have pointed out, being the GM of an NFL franchise is about more than the draft. If Dave Gettleman was the head of scouting he'd at least be in a position to do less damage than he's done.
- written in May, so no info from this year
- rightfully criticizes Barkley and Hernandez
- says "the saving grace " is BJ Hill
In case you don't recall, we had the #2 pick
The OP certainly got me to laugh this morning. Thanks for that.
Other than that, this thread is a joke. All of us that were very pissed for taking a RB with 2nd pick for a rebuilding team and after reading SY's observations ta the time with Hernandez and seeing how Carter has performed - the drat is called "average?" This is all "average" and for those of us that knew the number 2 pick selection was incredibly dumb? Unreal the blindness of some posters.
Then add in you had THIS SUMMER DG admitting that he blundered by trying to win and rebuild at the same time admitting that was wrong. SO he shouldn't get blasted for being a moron by trying to do both instead of having the recognition that it's stupid to try to do both AT THE SAME TIME? And yet we still have some blind Giants fans sticking up for him? Unreal.
Quote:
In a league that strives for parity.
Case Closed!
Its fuckin real hard to lose this much in the NFL
Seriously. Sometimes I think, how the hell did we eek out 8 wins with the likes of Scott Gragg and Greg Bishop, and now we can't sniff that kind of "success"....
This is what the issue is. DG came in and promised the OL was a priority. After two years lhe had drafted one OL and signed one FA OL that were still on the team. He should have been fired then. This not to mention not acquiring additional draft choices by trading the #2 pick in 2018 and spending draft choices to move up in 2019. Just the opposite of what was needed to restock the terrible roster he inherited.
He has not produced anything close to a winner in 4 years and the team may in fact be worse.
Also I don't agree with any of those rankings.
The reality is you can take that same view of the 2017 Giants. There are a bunch of players from that team still playing pretty good football 5 years later.
Good football teams are well coached, have a solid depth, starting players on the talent spectrum from serviceable to very good, and a clear identity.
My guess is you could have taken the same poll in 2017 and gotten similar results. There's only one franchise that even considered hiring him, and they hired him.
It was a joke then, and it's only gotten worse.
Spend major resources on Nate Soldier and Peart as O line depth with very poor results
Invest in players with a history of injury
I don’t think a draft rating of above average means much when you view the results. Besides, he s been drafting pretty high, he should have had outstanding drafts.
Hernandez - bust
Carter - bust
Hill - decent rotational DT, traded
Lauletta - Lulz
McIntosh - barely ever even suited up
It was an awful draft.
Draft grades are your evidence?
Draft grades are your evidence?
DannyDimes is absolutely a troll.
But if Eric & co. won't get rid of him, we don't have to cushion the fall.
No one appreciates quality until it's gone.
No one appreciates quality until it's gone.
In that case, I for one am looking forward to appreciating it.
In retrospect to all of the criticism I (and others) have given Gettleman defenders in the past, it isn't even satisfying to say "I told you so". Not because we can't but because the mistakes/missteps were so plainly obvious that anybody with an objective mind could see the trouble with most, if not all, of his moves.
I will miss the press conferences the most...
Case Closed!
Gettleman has been an unmitigated disaster. Drafting Barkley second overall, who is either injured or the football equivalent of Adam Dunn (1 home run for every 20 strikeouts) over Q Nelson who doesn’t miss time and would have been a cog on the interior line for a decade was negligence. Signing Nate Solder - who makes me miss Ereck Flowers - to a rich contract because he shared the same air as Tom Brady was gross negligence. Hiring Pat Shurmur because he was mature was just amazingly stupid. And there are many other examples of his mismanagement of valuable free agency and draft capital.
In retrospect to all of the criticism I (and others) have given Gettleman defenders in the past, it isn't even satisfying to say "I told you so". Not because we can't but because the mistakes/missteps were so plainly obvious that anybody with an objective mind could see the trouble with most, if not all, of his moves.
I will miss the press conferences the most...
It’s just funny when admins call the fan base stupid for being critical of Jones but we get posts like the OPs
Gettleman's actual drafts have in large part been fairly decent when compared to the rest of the league. The issue was hiring Shurmur, holding on for dear life to Eli (argue it all you want, it was going to happen regardless) and then mishandling 2018 and 2019 free agency, trying to spend to win instead of taking a step back and retooling, which is what they did in large part with 2020, smart signings.
His ability to scout players is actually quite solid. It's the rest of the stuff that hasn't worked out.
But - they decided to try and patchwork it all together. It was a severe misstep.
Gettleman's actual drafts have in large part been fairly decent when compared to the rest of the league. The issue was hiring Shurmur, holding on for dear life to Eli (argue it all you want, it was going to happen regardless) and then mishandling 2018 and 2019 free agency, trying to spend to win instead of taking a step back and retooling, which is what they did in large part with 2020, smart signings.
His ability to scout players is actually quite solid. It's the rest of the stuff that hasn't worked out.
Have they been decent? Who from his 2018-2020 drafts are going to get a second contract? As of right now the only certainty is Thomas. Maybe Lawrence and Jones.
Gettleman's actual drafts have in large part been fairly decent when compared to the rest of the league. The issue was hiring Shurmur, holding on for dear life to Eli (argue it all you want, it was going to happen regardless) and then mishandling 2018 and 2019 free agency, trying to spend to win instead of taking a step back and retooling, which is what they did in large part with 2020, smart signings.
His ability to scout players is actually quite solid. It's the rest of the stuff that hasn't worked out.
Ryan, I appreciate your viewpoint, but they've only played 8 games this season and only 56 games under DG. Can we at least get to 17 games this year and 100 under DG before we start to give up on the plan?
Look at 49ers. Everyone was all over Lynch and their "plan" and how awesome it was. Since 2015, they've had 1 winning season. Just one. Their drafts have not been that good.
It's about hitting on some great players, establishing the HC and QB, and going from there.
It takes a very, very special level of ineptitude for a Front Office to achieve that.
Gettleman's actual drafts have in large part been fairly decent when compared to the rest of the league. The issue was hiring Shurmur, holding on for dear life to Eli (argue it all you want, it was going to happen regardless) and then mishandling 2018 and 2019 free agency, trying to spend to win instead of taking a step back and retooling, which is what they did in large part with 2020, smart signings.
His ability to scout players is actually quite solid. It's the rest of the stuff that hasn't worked out.
Good lord.
- Shurmur hasn't coached a game for them since Dec 2019.
- Eli was replaced by DJ in Sept 2019.
- Other than Shepard & Engram, this roster is 100% Gettleman's, and he still kept paying both of them.
At least make a reasonable argument here...
You can pick a good player and they play well for a few years, and then they get a shitload of money in FA, maybe because they are a bit overrated, they are getting way more than they are worth, and because of the situation of your team, you might say ok no thanks, we're moving on. Happens all the time.
Look at 49ers. Everyone was all over Lynch and their "plan" and how awesome it was. Since 2015, they've had 1 winning season. Just one. Their drafts have not been that good.
It's about hitting on some great players, establishing the HC and QB, and going from there.
They went to the Super Bowl during that ONE winning season. That's been our calling card for nearly two decades, and I don't see you minimizing that.
Can we win SEVEN games in a season before you start chirping? Do you ever get embarrassed about your constant pollyanna routine?
You can pick a good player and they play well for a few years, and then they get a shitload of money in FA, maybe because they are a bit overrated, they are getting way more than they are worth, and because of the situation of your team, you might say ok no thanks, we're moving on. Happens all the time.
But those players who won’t get second contracts aren’t not getting them from the Giants because they’re getting a shit ton of money in free agency.
You know what teams have pick #2 in a draft and come away with one player who was had a marginal impact and no other good players? You know what teams have three first round picks and end up with zero high impact players? Bad teams
No one listens to you because you're useless.
- written in May, so no info from this year
- rightfully criticizes Barkley and Hernandez
- says "the saving grace " is BJ Hill
In case you don't recall, we had the #2 pick
The "saving grace" of the draft is no longer on the team. You would have to assume that even PFF would call this a below average draft at this point then, no?
So you think the coach and QB have sucked during DG's entire tenure?
Who chose each?
League average??? The 2018 draft only netted them Saqoun. Of three 2019 first round picks the only potential useful player may be Lawrence who is average at best.
You guys hate Gettleman. That's fine. He'll be gone after this year. Again, totally fine.
But just calm the fuck down - every time I post something that doesn't jive with your narrative you have a fucking conniption.
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Dave Gettleman sucks.
Facts.
You guys hate Gettleman. That's fine. He'll be gone after this year. Again, totally fine.
But just calm the fuck down - every time I post something that doesn't jive with your narrative you have a fucking conniption.
It's not about the narrative. It's because you're a fucking idiot.
You guys hate Gettleman. That's fine. He'll be gone after this year. Again, totally fine.
But just calm the fuck down - every time I post something that doesn't jive with your narrative you have a fucking conniption.
Point out other teams that have struck out like he did in 2018 and 2019. You’ll notice they all have one thing in common.
I'm sure it is painful for you. Because I'm aware of the NFL in general. I know how to run a regression and determine correlations to winning. I understand the salary cap and it's downstream implications.
And you do none of those things and just want everyone to wait a few more weeks, every year. Do you even understand how absurd you sound week after week?
Then how come the Giant's don't win at least at the league average? And this has now happened under 2 coaches and 2 QBs.
I may not like DG, but my judgment is not clouded at all.
Guess what. They have Andy Reid and Patrick Mahomes. Hardman was the "best" player they took from 2018 and 2019. He pretty much sucks.
So let's keep this GM who swings and misses at his picks, and his free agent signings, and stands in front of a podium, promises a particular direction and fails at that? That's your reason for defending this shitshow? Because the next GM might also fail?
You ask everyone to be patient about the season every year, but you've already decided that the next GM is going to fail?
What a joke you are. You think I need help? Send me your address and I'll buy you a mirror.
Say what you want about Barkley at #2, but knowing what you know now, he was not worth that pick. He's fun to watch when he is healthy, but he spends too many games in street clothes. Does anyone want to give him a massive 2nd contract full of guarantees?
Daniel Jones is serviceable, but in a redraft would anyone take him top 10? No. Has he earned a second contract? Most would argue no unless it is well below what most first round picks sign second contracts for. I don't think many believe paying him $30M+ a year for several years is a wise investment.
Lawrence and Baker? A decent (not spectacular) player and a guy who is no longer here.
Thomas looks promising and so does Toney, but it is way too early to conclude that Toney was or wasn't a good pick. He just doesn't have enough of a track record yet.
All of this is hindsight, but you can't evaluate results on "well who would you have picked?" You evaluate drafts based on results, and it is fair to say the Giants have not gotten much from their first round picks under DG from 2018 and 2019, and the latter rounds have not not produced many pleasant surprises either.
That will be hilarious...why?
Are the first round picks over the last 4 years changing the losing situation now?
Guess what. They have Andy Reid and Patrick Mahomes. Hardman was the "best" player they took from 2018 and 2019. He pretty much sucks.
The chiefs didn’t have a first round pick in either year. Let alone multiple top 10 picks.
Nnadi and Thornhill will be on the team, they’re good role players.
Come on man.
Come on man.
How many 1st round picks have the Chiefs had during that time? How many top 10 1st round picks have the Chiefs had during that time?
You genuinely don't understand the NFL, and that's probably why you're able to continue to be such a pollyanna.
I'm not even talking about finishing a season over .500. But literally just being 1 game over .500 at any point during one of those seasons, and that GM is more successful than DG was here.
What a high bar. And to think anyone would defend DG considering that fact in any way, shape, or form is absolute madness.
Come on man.
You’re very bad at this. Just going to ignore your comparison didn’t have first round picks?
So the argument for Gettleman is that there just isn't anyone better so why try?
His stated priority when he got here was to rebuild the offensive line, and nobody can argue that that was achieved. Despite draft picks and free agents thrown at it, it is still one of the worst in the league.
But sure, someone else might also fail, so just keep the guy who is already failing since we know him.
Maybe we'll have a GM who doesn't completely fuck up the #2 and #6 overall picks in back to back drafts. Maybe we'll have one who understands positional value and how to construct a roster in the modern NFL.
Maybe we'll have one who isn't a condescending shithead who thinks he's the smartest guy in the room despite building an atrocious team.
Just keep hoping and praying that things will get better, how's that working out for you?
They've gotten 1 player from each draft, sometimes 0, that you'd call a very good player.
They've gotten 1 player from each draft, sometimes 0, that you'd call a very good player.
So you think we need a better head coach and better QB?
A few good moments, of course, but you are overlooking a lot of *bad* if you contend he did a good job. He came into the job seeming out of step, and that hasn't changed.
Ultimately a GM is judged by the record of his club, or perhaps, if the club seems to be headed in a much better direction. DG fails on both counts. And the outlook is not good. Well beyond time to move on.
This guy is a fucking moronic troll.
The roster is poor but every GM sucks so it doesn't matter who has that job.
The offense is terrible but the QB and skill position players are awesome. The problem is the Oline. The Oline was built by the GM, but see above...everyone would have failed at building the line so it is what it is.
The GM was part of hiring Shurmur (fail), and Judge (TBD). They are also not responsible for the team losing, and if they are, well any other GM would have also hired bad coaches.
So I guess the answer is you hire guys and then you wait patiently for it to get better, no matter what. If it isn't better, you just haven't waited long enough.
The OP was about the players drafted.
The OP was about the players drafted.
Your point is that it's a HC and QB league, right?
So we need a better HC and better QB?
The OP was about the players drafted.
And you've also said you're looking forward to when the next GM misses on future 1st round picks in this very thread. We're well beyond sticking to just the thread topic and nothing else.
I don't think he hits on average, in the draft or free agency.
But even if he does under your logic, the opportunity is there for someone to do better than average...right?
What's there to lose...someone do below average and we win less than 4 games per year? Minimal downside, agree?
That should be obvious, but I guess it isn't for all.
They've gotten 1 player from each draft, sometimes 0, that you'd call a very good player.
And the HOF QB wants out because of it…
I have to admit, I wasn't expecting the chief pollyanna to be rooting against the next GM so that he could retroactively defend his love for DG. It's a bit of a plot twist for me.
Think about that for a second. Think about that level of ineptitude. It's scary.
For the last fucking time, I'm not talking about the Giants record, Gettleman's record, whatever the fuck you guys want to discuss.
I'm talking about NFL draft player selection. The NFL is about HC, QB, and roster management. We thought we had the coach right this time, and he has really disappointed this year. A lot of us thought Jones was going to improve drastically this year, he has improved, but not to the ability that takes the team to the next level. It is what it is. He'll get the rest of the season to prove he's the guy. If he's not, we'll move on.
Gettleman? I don't know how anyone who follows the Giants can argue that he has not been, at best, a below average GM.
And if it isn't the GM and it isn't the coach, is it just the players? Is it just injuries? Outside of this board nobody expected the Giants to be a .500 team this year. Who is responsible for this prolonged futility, or is it simply bad luck that will turn around on it's own?
At some point someone has to be accountable for something, no?
Why have a several other teams that were bad in 2018, been a lot better?
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Dave Gettleman sucks.
Facts.
Facts, DG didn't play a single down...
Need a few others to give you some help in defending the faith. The ones we hear from all offseason, during the LW signing, free agency, the draft and when all the media reports bash the team.
Anybody out there?
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17-39
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Dave Gettleman sucks.
Facts.
Facts, DG didn't play a single down...
But he chose 99%+ of those who did.
For the last fucking time, I'm not talking about the Giants record, Gettleman's record, whatever the fuck you guys want to discuss.
I'm talking about NFL draft player selection. The NFL is about HC, QB, and roster management. We thought we had the coach right this time, and he has really disappointed this year. A lot of us thought Jones was going to improve drastically this year, he has improved, but not to the ability that takes the team to the next level. It is what it is. He'll get the rest of the season to prove he's the guy. If he's not, we'll move on.
100% Agree. The players DG has drafted should have brought better results. how about the coaching take some hits? The position coaches, the coordinators and the head coach....
DG doesn't play the game and by any reasonable method, he is better than half the GMs in th eleague.
For the last fucking time, I'm not talking about the Giants record, Gettleman's record, whatever the fuck you guys want to discuss.
I'm talking about NFL draft player selection. The NFL is about HC, QB, and roster management. We thought we had the coach right this time, and he has really disappointed this year. A lot of us thought Jones was going to improve drastically this year, he has improved, but not to the ability that takes the team to the next level. It is what it is. He'll get the rest of the season to prove he's the guy. If he's not, we'll move on.
The Giants record IS DAVE GETTLEMAN'S RECORD.
You want to remove accountability for the team's record from the General manager.
That is idiotic.
If it is the coach or QB's fault, it is ultimately the fault of the person who keeps them employed.
I don't know how to politely explain this to you without being rude.
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Dave Gettleman sucks.
Facts.
Facts, DG didn't play a single down...
Also, facts: the next nugget of value that you offer on this board with be your first.
Quote:
you guys are not willing to admit the fact that every single GM in football goes years where they miss on draft picks and a a majority of them. And there are plenty of GMs in football who you guys think are better than Dave Gettleman at DRAFTING, who are not better than Dave Gettleman at drafting.
For the last fucking time, I'm not talking about the Giants record, Gettleman's record, whatever the fuck you guys want to discuss.
I'm talking about NFL draft player selection. The NFL is about HC, QB, and roster management. We thought we had the coach right this time, and he has really disappointed this year. A lot of us thought Jones was going to improve drastically this year, he has improved, but not to the ability that takes the team to the next level. It is what it is. He'll get the rest of the season to prove he's the guy. If he's not, we'll move on.
100% Agree. The players DG has drafted should have brought better results. how about the coaching take some hits? The position coaches, the coordinators and the head coach....
DG doesn't play the game and by any reasonable method, he is better than half the GMs in th eleague.
Apparently the BBI short bus has at least two seats.
DG has been HORRENDOUS here at every turn, though. Draft, FA, trades, everything. HE IS NOT A GOOD GM anyway you slice it and try to shape it to us.
Defend not being a single game over .500 at any point over the last 4 seasons. You can't.
He's been awful here in every way.
In comment 15444145 ryanmkeane said:
For the last fucking time, I'm not talking about the Giants record, Gettleman's record, whatever the fuck you guys want to discuss.
I'm talking about NFL draft player selection. The NFL is about HC, QB, and roster management. We thought we had the coach right this time, and he has really disappointed this year. A lot of us thought Jones was going to improve drastically this year, he has improved, but not to the ability that takes the team to the next level. It is what it is. He'll get the rest of the season to prove he's the guy. If he's not, we'll move on.
Quote:
17-39
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Dave Gettleman sucks.
Facts.
Facts, DG didn't play a single down...
Did your brain fall out of your head?
Whos signs and drafts, players, coaches and staff?
Dave fucking Gettleman.
Who can fire them?
Dave fucking Gettleman.
Pick your brain up off the floor, wash it off, slap it back in and go take a nap. You are cranky and acting like an overtired toddler.
In the time he’s been the GM the Giants have been the worst team in the NFL.
The Giants have not spent a single day in his tenure with a winning record.
Sure, by any reasonable measure he’s among the top half of GMs.
Unless those measures include winning games, going to the playoffs, winning playoff games, or competing for a championship.
I think if you asked most WFT, Cowboy and Eagle fans, they would have the same perspective on Gettleman give the historically awful team the Giants have been during his four year tenure.
If your argument puts you with those fans, it's probably not what's best for the Giants.
Think about that for a second. Think about that level of ineptitude. It's scary.
LOL!!! Oh man, this may be my all-time favorite post!
Thanks for the chuckle Dave!
Also starting to think ryan is a troll. Maybe we should stop feeding the troll?
I think he'd wither away and die if we didn't engage him on his desired adventures into polyannaville.
He's no FMIC who it didn't matter if you fed him or not he literally had nothing better to do.
I think this guy needs the attention... Just my $.02
2. Some other teams have drafted as poorly as the Giants have, so there's no point in criticizing the Giants for their poor drafts (especially when you disregard that the Giants' top picks have consistently been in the top of each round the 3 of the past 4 years).
3. The general manager's FA signings and contract structure are not worth considering, but dated draft grades from PFF are.
Anything I miss?
I already asked that question, see 11:49am post above.
I think the silence is the answer...
The other variable is the better teams have better incumbents so presumably draftees will have a harder time cracking the lineup.
The better comparison is to teams who were bad in 2018/2019 and drafting in the range of the Giants. How do the Giants stack up against those teams.
We might have missed on three in one year!
For the last fucking time, I'm not talking about the Giants record, Gettleman's record, whatever the fuck you guys want to discuss.
I'm talking about NFL draft player selection. The NFL is about HC, QB, and roster management. We thought we had the coach right this time, and he has really disappointed this year. A lot of us thought Jones was going to improve drastically this year, he has improved, but not to the ability that takes the team to the next level. It is what it is. He'll get the rest of the season to prove he's the guy. If he's not, we'll move on.
Your analysis about how good Gettleman has drafted is based on grades given right after the draft, which are worse than useless. For one thing, they are entirely subjective while pretending to be data because you line up everyone's subjective grade.
There are lots of ways to tell how the Giants are drafting, but start with how many players he drafted are still on the team or how many all-pros or pro bowl players he drafted compared to other teams. I don't think his record will be good.
To kinda your point, the draft is only one piece of roster construction. The Rams could give a shit about the draft. There are other ways to build a roster.
The GM is responsible for roster construction and he has failed miserably.
I think the disconnect here comes from the fact that you make the above statement, yet you don't seem to attribute the faults in those three areas to the GM. Those are arguably his three main jobs as a GM.
1. Find a good coach - It's clear that Judge is in over his head when it comes to the basics of running a game. If this year turns out 5-12 or whatever, why should Judge get another shot? Because he yells and screams a lot?
2. QB - Over-drafted, has some talent, but no way can he hang with the top 10 QBs in the league, because he doesn't have the right vision and instincts. That means the pick spent for him was too high and the contract he'll get will be too much vis a vis what he actually brings to the table. Lose/lose for him and the franchise as he's set up to fail behind a terrible offensive line.
3. Roster Management - GTFO
The top teams are probably who you expect. Guess who came in 21st for the last five years, and 24th overall? This doesn't yet count 2020 or 2021.
NFL Drafting Efficiency, 2010 - 2019 - ( New Window )
Of those 15 players, how many do you feel comfortable penciling in as starters next year?
I'd say in order of confidence: Thomas, Toney, Jones, Barkley, Ojulari, Lawrence, McKinney.
So basically two starters on a bad team per draft, picking towards the top each year?
Seems pretty average to me.
Gettleman is an incompetent slob whose exit from this team I will enjoy. Ray Handley can rest easy that he is no longer the worst thing to happen to the Giants in the last 50 years.
Fuck Dave Gettleman.
This guy is a fucking moronic troll.
A game over .500? You are asking for a lot. How about getting to .500 because we can't seem to sniff that mediocre benchmark.
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missed way too many first round picks over the last ten years. If Barkley can't be a plus player and Jones ends up as a player not close in value to his draft status, the team can add two more to the pile. You gotta hit on your first round picks.
We might have missed on three in one year!
I had not thought of that; but you're right.
results in--
- barkley pick, soldier signing, omaheh signing, corpse of jonathan stewart. so that was the initial setting back of the team for 2+ years and the starting point of any and every discussion.
the guy came in, after a disgraceful year, looked at the team, and thought he could make a run with a done QB. he also committed to the OL, which now still sucks.
those initial decisions are what have the giants still here. and then 2yrs later... started to kind of commit to an actual rebuild.
and then this summer, decided to blow the bank and a bunch of whatever... and the team still stinks.
great GM tenure... awesome job.
Mind you...this argument doesn't mean he should still be the GM...just that some of the blame is misplaced.
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The NFL is about HC, QB, and roster management.
I think the disconnect here comes from the fact that you make the above statement, yet you don't seem to attribute the faults in those three areas to the GM. Those are arguably his three main jobs as a GM.
1. Find a good coach - It's clear that Judge is in over his head when it comes to the basics of running a game. If this year turns out 5-12 or whatever, why should Judge get another shot? Because he yells and screams a lot?
2. QB - Over-drafted, has some talent, but no way can he hang with the top 10 QBs in the league, because he doesn't have the right vision and instincts. That means the pick spent for him was too high and the contract he'll get will be too much vis a vis what he actually brings to the table. Lose/lose for him and the franchise as he's set up to fail behind a terrible offensive line.
3. Roster Management - GTFO
I'm not sure if you remember our let's call them in a friendly way heated debates of the past. But it seems like you've mellowed out I'd say even more than myself lol.
Either way it's good to have you back! Especially involved in the highly needed sanity coalition around here
I think he actually got a good few of the big decisions right. It is the smaller decisions in many ways that doomed him. Levine Toilolo, Devante Booker etc. We paid too much for some replacement players.
The big ones he missed on was Solder and to a degree Barkley. The latter may yet work out but seems increasingly unlikely.
2018 - Arrogant initial press sessions, god awful free agency signings led with Nate Solder, screwing up the #2 overall pick on a RB, giving OBJ a huge deal, thinking the team could still compete and Eli could still win as QB, winning 5 games with 4 against backup QBs, blaming Reese for leaving team in such poor state.
2019 - more arrogance with media, keeping Eli on payroll, trading OBJ debacle, more god awful free agent signings led with Golden Tate, panicking with Jones pick at #6, benching Eli after 2 games, Jones turning ball over at a record pace, winning 4 games all year, firing and blaming Shurmur.
2020 - hiring Judge, blaming COVID for disrupting new coach and implementing new system, Deandre Baker debacle, OL continues to be a disaster, centerpiece of offense Barkley tears ACL, Jones regressing, Engram becomes public enemy #2 behind DG, team can't get to 7 wins even in a crappy NFCE.
2021 - Leonard Williams outnegotiates DG for huge deal, big free agent spending spree but nothing new for OL nor in the draft, injuries decimate WR & OL units and Barkley once again, frantic restructuring of deals to stay under cap, Judge and staff come under fire for early coaching gaffes, team starts with only 2 wins in first half of season.
ahh memories...
I think he actually got a good few of the big decisions right. It is the smaller decisions in many ways that doomed him. Levine Toilolo, Devante Booker etc. We paid too much for some replacement players.
The big ones he missed on was Solder and to a degree Barkley. The latter may yet work out but seems increasingly unlikely.
The Levine Toilolo signing doomed us?
uh huh...
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It is that simple. I have him every chance but he's not done the one thing he promised to do. Fix the OL.
I think he actually got a good few of the big decisions right. It is the smaller decisions in many ways that doomed him. Levine Toilolo, Devante Booker etc. We paid too much for some replacement players.
The big ones he missed on was Solder and to a degree Barkley. The latter may yet work out but seems increasingly unlikely.
The Levine Toilolo signing doomed us?
uh huh...
I'll actually throw in a note that we restructured Toilolo's unguaranteed 2021 salary to free up some space for DG's spending spree this offseason, which resulted in newly guaranteed money which became dead money.
It was a pretty good metaphor for DG's tenure to date.
Debacle was putting up with his nonsense, giving him a big deal, still more nonsense...trading him was indeed a means to an end.
But the dead money hit and seeing that the assets gained in the deal really haven't delivered any more than any other DG acquisition is no surprise.
It sounded like he was going to repair our offensive line. Unfortunately, that is the one area of the team that was NOT improved AND it is the one that is IMO, the reason for our horrible record.
If we cannot run the ball and pass protect, then we cannot score, we cannot control the clock... and we lose.
We have been near the bottom of the league in time of possession for the past few years.
So, I really don't care whether some website ranks Gettleman high based upon his draft picks. It is meaningless. What I see with my eyes is our RBs are getting hit in the backfield and the QB is running for his life.
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In comment 15444437 English Alaister said:
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It is that simple. I have him every chance but he's not done the one thing he promised to do. Fix the OL.
I think he actually got a good few of the big decisions right. It is the smaller decisions in many ways that doomed him. Levine Toilolo, Devante Booker etc. We paid too much for some replacement players.
The big ones he missed on was Solder and to a degree Barkley. The latter may yet work out but seems increasingly unlikely.
The Levine Toilolo signing doomed us?
uh huh...
I'll actually throw in a note that we restructured Toilolo's unguaranteed 2021 salary to free up some space for DG's spending spree this offseason, which resulted in newly guaranteed money which became dead money.
It was a pretty good metaphor for DG's tenure to date.
Yeah, don't get me wrong...the Toilolo signing and restructuring is a perfect example of this crappy GM/FO at all levels of their decision making. Just keeping it in it's perspective relative to say a Solder deal...
You've got some now 10-year-olds to explain this to:
It sounded like he was going to repair our offensive line. Unfortunately, that is the one area of the team that was NOT improved AND it is the one that is IMO, the reason for our horrible record.
If we cannot run the ball and pass protect, then we cannot score, we cannot control the clock... and we lose.
We have been near the bottom of the league in time of possession for the past few years.
So, I really don't care whether some website ranks Gettleman high based upon his draft picks. It is meaningless. What I see with my eyes is our RBs are getting hit in the backfield and the QB is running for his life.
Absolutley agree. It was his biggest issue coming in(Yes there was the Eli question but the line MAY have given Eli a year more) he addressed it head on and then failed. Perhaps Andrew Thomas and Perhaps Nick Gates after 4 years. I mean its bad. And maybe I could see past it if another area was confirmed but we have no area that is 'set'(ok maybe DL).
It's mutual.
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It is that simple. I have him every chance but he's not done the one thing he promised to do. Fix the OL.
I think he actually got a good few of the big decisions right. It is the smaller decisions in many ways that doomed him. Levine Toilolo, Devante Booker etc. We paid too much for some replacement players.
The big ones he missed on was Solder and to a degree Barkley. The latter may yet work out but seems increasingly unlikely.
The Levine Toilolo signing doomed us?
uh huh...
Not saying that. Just saying when you add up the little decisions there is a lot of money spent on non-performers and his track record there is terrible. I can almost excuse the big free agency misses and draft whiffs at times as he has hit his fair share. It is the consistent misses lower down that piss me off.
Solder, DeAndre Baker, Golden Tate. Plenty of big ones too.
Give it some time...
Not saying that. Just saying when you add up the little decisions there is a lot of money spent on non-performers and his track record there is terrible. I can almost excuse the big free agency misses and draft whiffs at times as he has hit his fair share. It is the consistent misses lower down that piss me off.
Solder, DeAndre Baker, Golden Tate. Plenty of big ones too.
EA - Not sure he has hit his fair share of anything but I get your sentiment on the small stuff. It chafes me too because it still goes to poor judgment.
Deals like signing a Jonathan Stewart on first day of 2018 free agency struck me right away as ridiculous albeit on a lower scale...
No one is asking for DG (or any GM) to bat 1.000. But something better than .304 would be a step in the right direction.
17 wins and 39 losses over 3.5 years.
You really want to compare Getts to other GMs?
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Who has never had a bad signing and all their draft picks are in the pro bowl. Is there some comparisons of great GMs in the league right now.
17 wins and 39 losses over 3.5 years.
You really want to compare Getts to other GMs?
Name a better GM, sure we could go through their drafts and signings and find some garbage.
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In comment 15444495 Giants73 said:
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Who has never had a bad signing and all their draft picks are in the pro bowl. Is there some comparisons of great GMs in the league right now.
17 wins and 39 losses over 3.5 years.
You really want to compare Getts to other GMs?
Name a better GM, sure we could go through their drafts and signings and find some garbage.
I am sure you could find some garbage with every single one the existing 32 GMs. That's not the question.
The question is who are the real chucklehead GMs that keep finding the most garbage, spending the most money for it and getting the least out of it?
Dunk and I gave you a hint to take a look at winning percentage, say for the last 3.5 years or so...
But there are some who still actually like him... That is mind blowing to me.
Somebody recently posted an article about toxic positivity. The basic premise is that some people always stay positive no matter what because they don't want to handle and face difficult and painful situations straight on in order to fix them. Essentially it is a coping mechanism that allows them to justify doing nothing to fix the bad things in life.
At this point, that is the only reasonable explanation I can figure for anybody to still be supportive of DG. They fear the rebuild process more than sucky status quo.
And his tenure can still be evaluated as an utter disaster with full hindsight.
There is simply no way to spin DG's reign of terror as anything even approaching average.
And his legacy will continue for years of pain due to his ill conceived spending spree this past off season.
LOL...
Who knows, maybe its true... ;)
But there are some who still actually like him... That is mind blowing to me.
Somebody recently posted an article about toxic positivity. The basic premise is that some people always stay positive no matter what because they don't want to handle and face difficult and painful situations straight on in order to fix them. Essentially it is a coping mechanism that allows them to justify doing nothing to fix the bad things in life.
At this point, that is the only reasonable explanation I can figure for anybody to still be supportive of DG. They fear the rebuild process more than sucky status quo.
If there are people still unconvinced that Gettleman is a problem it may go to an inability to make decisions and make distinctions.
There is also an opportunity cost for maintaining a broken status quo. Time is our most precious resource, not Dave Gettleman. The more time we spend floundering with DG the longer we spend not turning things around, not pursuing more productive avenues, while the league continues to pass you by. Change is good. Embrace change.
For all we know, Ryan, DannyDimes and Giants73 might be the same person at the same bad PR company!
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This is starting to feel like the Giants hired the world’s worst PR agency, and the big idea was have these two guys post on BBI that being mean to the team isn’t nice.
For all we know, Ryan, DannyDimes and Giants73 might be the same person at the same bad PR company!
Don't forget what a dream it is to eat a meal with Daniel Jones!
It's really important that we know what good people are that are underachieving at their jobs and with the money we as fans give them. I always like to know the people that are spitting in my face are good people deep down.
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I can see that the vast majority of the "wait and see people have turned against Gettleman.
But there are some who still actually like him... That is mind blowing to me.
Somebody recently posted an article about toxic positivity. The basic premise is that some people always stay positive no matter what because they don't want to handle and face difficult and painful situations straight on in order to fix them. Essentially it is a coping mechanism that allows them to justify doing nothing to fix the bad things in life.
At this point, that is the only reasonable explanation I can figure for anybody to still be supportive of DG. They fear the rebuild process more than sucky status quo.
If there are people still unconvinced that Gettleman is a problem it may go to an inability to make decisions and make distinctions.
There is also an opportunity cost for maintaining a broken status quo. Time is our most precious resource, not Dave Gettleman. The more time we spend floundering with DG the longer we spend not turning things around, not pursuing more productive avenues, while the league continues to pass you by. Change is good. Embrace change.
More than embrace the change.
The Giants need to do the hard work of truly fixing wwhat ails them.
They need to stop looking quick fixes, it's fools gold. We need to suck it up (pun intended), take the hits, and start constructing the team from ground up the right way. That includes everything from players, coaches, scouting, FO management, hell even the trainers and medical staff are suspect at this point.
It is going to be difficult, hard work. This team is still almost like an expansion team. Cut out all the rot, even if you cut out too much, it is better than too little. Too little and the rot spreads to the next generation.
I am not blaming people for taking the "wait and see" approach.
With regards to Judge, I am not happy right now either, but I am still waiting and seeing at least for the rest of this year. Great HC have notoriously failed in their first stint. (see Bill Belichick, Pete Carol, even Parcells his first season here). People need to grow into being great HCs...
There is no room for GMs to grow into that job. Either you are capable of making good decisions, or you are not. For me, there is far less ambiguity in the GMs role vs. the HC.
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A wait and see approach with Gettleman and I'm fine with it. There really is nothing left to dispute. The Giants certainly are not better than before he arrived and could be reasonably argued they are worse. Judge is the real kick in the balls if he keeps trending south, but I'll try to remain as patient as I can.
I am not blaming people for taking the "wait and see" approach.
With regards to Judge, I am not happy right now either, but I am still waiting and seeing at least for the rest of this year. Great HC have notoriously failed in their first stint. (see Bill Belichick, Pete Carol, even Parcells his first season here). People need to grow into being great HCs...
There is no room for GMs to grow into that job. Either you are capable of making good decisions, or you are not. For me, there is far less ambiguity in the GMs role vs. the HC.
You're right, coaches do need to grow into their position, especially young inexperienced coaches like Judge. I admit that I will be more than a little confused if the Giants cut bait so soon with Judge, they knew to an extent what they were hiring, they knew they would need to give him perhaps a longer leash than Mac or Shurmur. I also don't expect them to fire him after this season based on a poor record.
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In comment 15444567 crick n NC said:
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A wait and see approach with Gettleman and I'm fine with it. There really is nothing left to dispute. The Giants certainly are not better than before he arrived and could be reasonably argued they are worse. Judge is the real kick in the balls if he keeps trending south, but I'll try to remain as patient as I can.
I am not blaming people for taking the "wait and see" approach.
With regards to Judge, I am not happy right now either, but I am still waiting and seeing at least for the rest of this year. Great HC have notoriously failed in their first stint. (see Bill Belichick, Pete Carol, even Parcells his first season here). People need to grow into being great HCs...
There is no room for GMs to grow into that job. Either you are capable of making good decisions, or you are not. For me, there is far less ambiguity in the GMs role vs. the HC.
You're right, coaches do need to grow into their position, especially young inexperienced coaches like Judge. I admit that I will be more than a little confused if the Giants cut bait so soon with Judge, they knew to an extent what they were hiring, they knew they would need to give him perhaps a longer leash than Mac or Shurmur. I also don't expect them to fire him after this season based on a poor record.
Honestly, neither do I.
There is an outside chance that they hire a new GM that decides to do a complete reboot. Including bringing in his desired HC. That is about the only scenario I see as possible. But I doubt it would happen. 1% chance maybe.
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17-39
Outscored 1146-1420
Dave Gettleman sucks.
Facts.
Facts, DG didn't play a single down...
Facts, the players he’s brought onto this team have; they suck. And so do you.
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In comment 15444573 .McL. said:
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In comment 15444567 crick n NC said:
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A wait and see approach with Gettleman and I'm fine with it. There really is nothing left to dispute. The Giants certainly are not better than before he arrived and could be reasonably argued they are worse. Judge is the real kick in the balls if he keeps trending south, but I'll try to remain as patient as I can.
I am not blaming people for taking the "wait and see" approach.
With regards to Judge, I am not happy right now either, but I am still waiting and seeing at least for the rest of this year. Great HC have notoriously failed in their first stint. (see Bill Belichick, Pete Carol, even Parcells his first season here). People need to grow into being great HCs...
There is no room for GMs to grow into that job. Either you are capable of making good decisions, or you are not. For me, there is far less ambiguity in the GMs role vs. the HC.
You're right, coaches do need to grow into their position, especially young inexperienced coaches like Judge. I admit that I will be more than a little confused if the Giants cut bait so soon with Judge, they knew to an extent what they were hiring, they knew they would need to give him perhaps a longer leash than Mac or Shurmur. I also don't expect them to fire him after this season based on a poor record.
Honestly, neither do I.
There is an outside chance that they hire a new GM that decides to do a complete reboot. Including bringing in his desired HC. That is about the only scenario I see as possible. But I doubt it would happen. 1% chance maybe.
👍
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In comment 15444548 .McL. said:
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I can see that the vast majority of the "wait and see people have turned against Gettleman.
But there are some who still actually like him... That is mind blowing to me.
Somebody recently posted an article about toxic positivity. The basic premise is that some people always stay positive no matter what because they don't want to handle and face difficult and painful situations straight on in order to fix them. Essentially it is a coping mechanism that allows them to justify doing nothing to fix the bad things in life.
At this point, that is the only reasonable explanation I can figure for anybody to still be supportive of DG. They fear the rebuild process more than sucky status quo.
If there are people still unconvinced that Gettleman is a problem it may go to an inability to make decisions and make distinctions.
There is also an opportunity cost for maintaining a broken status quo. Time is our most precious resource, not Dave Gettleman. The more time we spend floundering with DG the longer we spend not turning things around, not pursuing more productive avenues, while the league continues to pass you by. Change is good. Embrace change.
More than embrace the change.
The Giants need to do the hard work of truly fixing wwhat ails them.
They need to stop looking quick fixes, it's fools gold. We need to suck it up (pun intended), take the hits, and start constructing the team from ground up the right way. That includes everything from players, coaches, scouting, FO management, hell even the trainers and medical staff are suspect at this point.
It is going to be difficult, hard work. This team is still almost like an expansion team. Cut out all the rot, even if you cut out too much, it is better than too little. Too little and the rot spreads to the next generation.
I agree. But there also needs to be a worldview shift, and I think that's even harder than the *roll up your sleeves and get cracking* type of hard work. It means questioning your assumptions, questioning how you have always done things, opening up to new ways of doing business.
The Giants have always been a conservative organization but if you want to be on the bleeding edge of the game I think we have to throw that old playbook out. The NFL isn't just a tough game played by tough individuals anymore. It is more than ever a numbers game, and more than ever a finesse game. Not to say we can't be tough, but three yards and a cloud of dust and field position football is almost over as a general strategy to win a lot of games in a season, and to sustain winning across seasons.
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In comment 15444561 Producer said:
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In comment 15444548 .McL. said:
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I can see that the vast majority of the "wait and see people have turned against Gettleman.
But there are some who still actually like him... That is mind blowing to me.
Somebody recently posted an article about toxic positivity. The basic premise is that some people always stay positive no matter what because they don't want to handle and face difficult and painful situations straight on in order to fix them. Essentially it is a coping mechanism that allows them to justify doing nothing to fix the bad things in life.
At this point, that is the only reasonable explanation I can figure for anybody to still be supportive of DG. They fear the rebuild process more than sucky status quo.
If there are people still unconvinced that Gettleman is a problem it may go to an inability to make decisions and make distinctions.
There is also an opportunity cost for maintaining a broken status quo. Time is our most precious resource, not Dave Gettleman. The more time we spend floundering with DG the longer we spend not turning things around, not pursuing more productive avenues, while the league continues to pass you by. Change is good. Embrace change.
More than embrace the change.
The Giants need to do the hard work of truly fixing wwhat ails them.
They need to stop looking quick fixes, it's fools gold. We need to suck it up (pun intended), take the hits, and start constructing the team from ground up the right way. That includes everything from players, coaches, scouting, FO management, hell even the trainers and medical staff are suspect at this point.
It is going to be difficult, hard work. This team is still almost like an expansion team. Cut out all the rot, even if you cut out too much, it is better than too little. Too little and the rot spreads to the next generation.
I agree. But there also needs to be a worldview shift, and I think that's even harder than the *roll up your sleeves and get cracking* type of hard work. It means questioning your assumptions, questioning how you have always done things, opening up to new ways of doing business.
The Giants have always been a conservative organization but if you want to be on the bleeding edge of the game I think we have to throw that old playbook out. The NFL isn't just a tough game played by tough individuals anymore. It is more than ever a numbers game, and more than ever a finesse game. Not to say we can't be tough, but three yards and a cloud of dust and field position football is almost over as a general strategy to win a lot of games in a season, and to sustain winning across seasons.
Agreed. I view that as "starting from the ground up". When you start from the ground up, you have no preconceived assumptions. You start fresh. Create a new roadmap, based on the modern game and modern theories including modern technology.
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In comment 15444569 .McL. said:
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In comment 15444561 Producer said:
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In comment 15444548 .McL. said:
Agreed. I view that as "starting from the ground up". When you start from the ground up, you have no preconceived assumptions. You start fresh. Create a new roadmap, based on the modern game and modern theories including modern technology.
I'm withya.
But if you thought Gettleman was bad, just wait until the next buffoon that they decide to hire. It can get worse.
You got to come up with a lot of excuses for Dave Gettleman to put up a thread like this.
And a lot nerve too..
Wish I could find that graph the other day that shows where teams are with wins vs cap space and you can see that based on that metric the Giants, and thus Mara/Gettleman, are literally worst in the league.
But if you thought Gettleman was bad, just wait until the next buffoon that they decide to hire. It can get worse.
The only defense I can come up with for Gettleman is basically how much of his bad decisions might actually be Chris Mara.
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Who has never had a bad signing and all their draft picks are in the pro bowl. Is there some comparisons of great GMs in the league right now.
Wish I could find that graph the other day that shows where teams are with wins vs cap space and you can see that based on that metric the Giants, and thus Mara/Gettleman, are literally worst in the league.
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In comment 15444495 Giants73 said:
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Who has never had a bad signing and all their draft picks are in the pro bowl. Is there some comparisons of great GMs in the league right now.
Wish I could find that graph the other day that shows where teams are with wins vs cap space and you can see that based on that metric the Giants, and thus Mara/Gettleman, are literally worst in the league.
Thank you
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In comment 15444561 Producer said:
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In comment 15444548 .McL. said:
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I can see that the vast majority of the "wait and see people have turned against Gettleman.
But there are some who still actually like him... That is mind blowing to me.
Somebody recently posted an article about toxic positivity. The basic premise is that some people always stay positive no matter what because they don't want to handle and face difficult and painful situations straight on in order to fix them. Essentially it is a coping mechanism that allows them to justify doing nothing to fix the bad things in life.
At this point, that is the only reasonable explanation I can figure for anybody to still be supportive of DG. They fear the rebuild process more than sucky status quo.
If there are people still unconvinced that Gettleman is a problem it may go to an inability to make decisions and make distinctions.
There is also an opportunity cost for maintaining a broken status quo. Time is our most precious resource, not Dave Gettleman. The more time we spend floundering with DG the longer we spend not turning things around, not pursuing more productive avenues, while the league continues to pass you by. Change is good. Embrace change.
More than embrace the change.
The Giants need to do the hard work of truly fixing wwhat ails them.
They need to stop looking quick fixes, it's fools gold. We need to suck it up (pun intended), take the hits, and start constructing the team from ground up the right way. That includes everything from players, coaches, scouting, FO management, hell even the trainers and medical staff are suspect at this point.
It is going to be difficult, hard work. This team is still almost like an expansion team. Cut out all the rot, even if you cut out too much, it is better than too little. Too little and the rot spreads to the next generation.
The NFL isn't just a tough game played by tough individuals anymore. It is more than ever a numbers game, and more than ever a finesse game. Not to say we can't be tough, but three yards and a cloud of dust and field position football is almost over as a general strategy to win a lot of games in a season, and to sustain winning across seasons.
It's a tough game too. Not 3 yards and a cloud of dust but still a tough game too.
However, the roster has added a ton of talent. Thomas, Peart, and Lemieux are better than Flowers, Pugh, and Richburg. This offseason, he added three receiving threats, a pass rusher in Round 2, and another off waivers. We are set up well for the next draft.
When I look back on the Jerry Reese era drafts, I become very nervous about just picking a new GM out of a hat.
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In comment 15444569 .McL. said:
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The NFL isn't just a tough game played by tough individuals anymore. It is more than ever a numbers game, and more than ever a finesse game. Not to say we can't be tough, but three yards and a cloud of dust and field position football is almost over as a general strategy to win a lot of games in a season, and to sustain winning across seasons.
It's a tough game too. Not 3 yards and a cloud of dust but still a tough game too.
it is, but I think building only that way will not lead to sustained success. The smart teams are embracing the finesse part of the game.
However, the roster has added a ton of talent. Thomas, Peart, and Lemieux are better than Flowers, Pugh, and Richburg. This offseason, he added three receiving threats, a pass rusher in Round 2, and another off waivers. We are set up well for the next draft.
When I look back on the Jerry Reese era drafts, I become very nervous about just picking a new GM out of a hat.
You can't be serious with this right? DG has proven to be one of the worst GMs, show me the hat. I will take the hat. Especially if it is just some random GM from somewhere else in the league and not someone Mara chooses. I don't know how Jerry Reese became the super villain and some of you want to lessen the shittiness of what DG has given us but jesus you can't let people that perform like this keep their jobs. That's part of the problem we are facing, how can you ask your players to be leaders? To strive to achieve greatness? When the people that are leading them are rewarded in a system where mediocrity would be a high achievement.
Five seasons on and there are several Giants from the 2017 Giants still starting in the NFL.
Success isn’t filling up half or so of a few units with decent players.
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However, the roster has added a ton of talent. Thomas, Peart, and Lemieux are better than Flowers, Pugh, and Richburg. This offseason, he added three receiving threats, a pass rusher in Round 2, and another off waivers. We are set up well for the next draft.
When I look back on the Jerry Reese era drafts, I become very nervous about just picking a new GM out of a hat.
You can't be serious with this right? DG has proven to be one of the worst GMs, show me the hat. I will take the hat. Especially if it is just some random GM from somewhere else in the league and not someone Mara chooses. I don't know how Jerry Reese became the super villain and some of you want to lessen the shittiness of what DG has given us but jesus you can't let people that perform like this keep their jobs. That's part of the problem we are facing, how can you ask your players to be leaders? To strive to achieve greatness? When the people that are leading them are rewarded in a system where mediocrity would be a high achievement.
OTR is what I wrote about above. Toxic Positivity. Not willing to do the hard, scary stuff to get better.
And, yes, this mess CAN get worse. While DG has been awful, there is still room below him... At this point though. Who cares. If it gets worse, then whoever makes it worse won't last long either. Pick enough names out of the hat, and eventually you will get lucky and find a good one. It may take a while, but it is better than settling for the status quo.
There are a dozen or so huge decisions someone will make this offseason.
However, the roster has added a ton of talent. Thomas, Peart, and Lemieux are better than Flowers, Pugh, and Richburg. This offseason, he added three receiving threats, a pass rusher in Round 2, and another off waivers. We are set up well for the next draft.
When I look back on the Jerry Reese era drafts, I become very nervous about just picking a new GM out of a hat.
The roster doesn't have anywhere close to a ton of talent.
And as for picking out of a hat, I would go with this guy over Getts...
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However, the roster has added a ton of talent. Thomas, Peart, and Lemieux are better than Flowers, Pugh, and Richburg. This offseason, he added three receiving threats, a pass rusher in Round 2, and another off waivers. We are set up well for the next draft.
When I look back on the Jerry Reese era drafts, I become very nervous about just picking a new GM out of a hat.
You can't be serious with this right? DG has proven to be one of the worst GMs, show me the hat. I will take the hat. Especially if it is just some random GM from somewhere else in the league and not someone Mara chooses. I don't know how Jerry Reese became the super villain and some of you want to lessen the shittiness of what DG has given us but jesus you can't let people that perform like this keep their jobs. That's part of the problem we are facing, how can you ask your players to be leaders? To strive to achieve greatness? When the people that are leading them are rewarded in a system where mediocrity would be a high achievement.
If it weren't for Reese, we would've won 4-5 Superbowls with Eli. That's what people would have you believe.
I believe the opposite. DG is worse than Reese and the team is worse now than it was when Reese left the job.
And no, the offensive line is still a mess - if not worse now than it was the day Reese was sacked. Ignoring Lemieux who is an unknown, Bobby Hart and John Jerry actually managed to be much better than Hernandez and Solder, who represent more draft capital and money respectively.
There's no defending Gettleman, not even compared to Reese.
When it comes to the draft,you basically have a few teams who do it a little better than most.Than you have a large number who are about average.Than you have another small group who stink.Jerry was in this group.
Based on the hires this ownership has made,I wouldn't bet on the next guy being average.Which is what I think Gettleman is.
We are left in the same situation where it is hard to evaluate the offensive players because of the sieve in front of them.
Draft picks like Toney when we desperately needed line help are just not sensible.
We are left in the same situation where it is hard to evaluate the offensive players because of the sieve in front of them.
Draft picks like Toney when we desperately needed line help are just not sensible.
This sums up what I don't like about Gettleman, that he's broken his promises to fix both lines and we still can't evaluate Jones (of course people would say that Jones should be able to pull everyone's fat out of the fire, including the defense (not quite sure how that one works given quarterbacks don't play on the defense). If I was GM, I'd focus on rebuilding both lines, particularly at guard and tackle, as well as the tight end group (if we stay with Garrett as offensive coordinator this is doubly important).
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The main problem with DG is he was brought in to fix the lines and he has failed. He splurged on Omameh and Solder and missed. He spent serious cash this year but not on OL. Pass rush is an abomination.
We are left in the same situation where it is hard to evaluate the offensive players because of the sieve in front of them.
Draft picks like Toney when we desperately needed line help are just not sensible.
This sums up what I don't like about Gettleman, that he's broken his promises to fix both lines and we still can't evaluate Jones (of course people would say that Jones should be able to pull everyone's fat out of the fire, including the defense (not quite sure how that one works given quarterbacks don't play on the defense). If I was GM, I'd focus on rebuilding both lines, particularly at guard (offensive line) and edge (defensive line), as well as the tight end group (if we stay with Garrett as offensive coordinator this is doubly important).
When it comes to the draft,you basically have a few teams who do it a little better than most.Than you have a large number who are about average.Than you have another small group who stink.Jerry was in this group.
Based on the hires this ownership has made,I wouldn't bet on the next guy being average.Which is what I think Gettleman is.
No doubt the Giants issues run deeper that Gettleman. But Gettleman is nowhere near average as a GM.
No doubt the Giants issues run deeper that Gettleman. But Gettleman is nowhere near average as a GM.
I think Gettleman's run in Carolina is enough evidence he can do the job.But it's never properly examined to those who've already made up their minds.
So he comes back to New York and gets thrown into this mess.A situation where the owner pulls the rug out after 2 years,and brings in a tough talking special teams coach from Philly with an occasional southern accent.
I fully believe DG had things work for him in Carolina that do not work in the NFL today. It's not that I haven't considered his success, it's quite the opposite I think. I think saying things like this kind of ignore what the problems of the team are today.
I think Gettleman's run in Carolina is enough evidence he can do the job.But it's never properly examined to those who've already made up their minds.
Gettleman didn't build that Panthers SB team into a winner. Several key pieces including some sure fire hall of famers were on the team before Gettleman was hired by Carolina. Among those players that were there prior to Gettleman;
Cam Newton
Luke Kuechly
Ryan Khalil
Greg Olsen
Thomas Davis
Jonathan Stewart
There were a few other less impactful starters that were already there such as Ted Ginn.
That team wasn't built by Gettleman. However he certainly likes to paint it as though he was key in getting them to the Super Bowl.
Dave Gettleman having been good at a job doesn’t mean he’s currently good at this one.
He’s on coach two, quarterback two, four years of top draft picks — and yet he’s never enjoyed a single day with a winning record as GM.
He’s on coach two, quarterback two, four years of top draft picks — and yet he’s never enjoyed a single day with a winning record as GM.
Not just a job,it's the same job.Same job with different people.
And out of these people,Gettleman probably has the best resume,but he's viewed as the most incompetent.
I forgot who started calling him resume but that is probably my favorite BBI nickname ever. I think it was bw maybe.
Anyway the above is an entirely different debate. Let's put that aside, don't you still have to perform at your current job over the course of over 3 years? What is the argument for his competence?
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Dave Gettleman having been good at a job doesn’t mean he’s currently good at this one.
He’s on coach two, quarterback two, four years of top draft picks — and yet he’s never enjoyed a single day with a winning record as GM.
Not just a job,it's the same job.Same job with different people.
And out of these people,Gettleman probably has the best resume,but he's viewed as the most incompetent.
Look, I think when incompetent is thrown around for DG it clearly has a good bit of fan emotion in it. He has the background, experience and seemingly the intelligence to perform the GM job I presume. It's just that he isn't very good at it...and that is being kind.
Maybe he would be decent being GM for a relatively stable club/team with a good core of players and reliable QB (not a high ceiling but whatever). But he certainly has no business in building or rebuilding a struggling team from the ground up. And that is indisputable actually and it is based on his entire body of work here - from poor player evaluation skills to the positions he focused his efforts on and the questionable timing/order in which he did it all. All pretty below-standard. Hell, he isn't even good at assessing when a bad team is bad, missing it all pretty clearly at the beginning of his reign here.
And I also think he knew he was a bit outmatched/outdated in today's NFL as a GM, or at least with the NYG franchise. And that is why the arrogance came out so often in pressers, defending his approaches and throwing his "resume" out constantly and that he doesn't do this just as a hobby.
Nevertheless, it's almost over...
And out of these people,Gettleman probably has the best resume,but he's viewed as the most incompetent.
This is the fallacy of past success.
Sure Gettleman has succeeded in another time, with different people, in a different time in the league.
Now he’s 70, in an extremely different situation. No one is good forever.
Two things Dave Gettleman has never done — hired a head coach with a winning record in a season, drafted a quarterback with a winning record in a season.
Gettleman had a nice run in a Carolina putting some of the final pieces in place, but he was never the principal architect, which the Giants desperately need.
christian - spot on with the chief architect comment...
Sure Gettleman has succeeded in another time, with different people, in a different time in the league.
Now he’s 70, in an extremely different situation. No one is good forever.
Two things Dave Gettleman has never done — hired a head coach with a winning record in a season, drafted a quarterback with a winning record in a season.
Gettleman had a nice run in a Carolina putting some of the final pieces in place, but he was never the principal architect, which the Giants desperately need.
It's a different situation,but it could be related to the work environment,and not necessarily his age.
I've seen old guys get tossed to the side in favor of younger guys before.And it hasn't turned out very well.Heck,you've seen it with the recent coaching hires for the Giants.Age doesn't seem to matter when the person at the top is suspect.
Ultimately the Giants need an GM who can effectively manage and up and down. That’s a big part of the gig.
Over the last four years the Giants have swapped out all the primary variable twice, except GM. And the results have been identical.
It’s time to swap out the common variable in these four terrible years.
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I think Gettleman's run in Carolina is enough evidence he can do the job.But it's never properly examined to those who've already made up their minds.
Gettleman didn't build that Panthers SB team into a winner. Several key pieces including some sure fire hall of famers were on the team before Gettleman was hired by Carolina. Among those players that were there prior to Gettleman;
Cam Newton
Luke Kuechly
Ryan Khalil
Greg Olsen
Thomas Davis
Jonathan Stewart
There were a few other less impactful starters that were already there such as Ted Ginn.
That team wasn't built by Gettleman. However he certainly likes to paint it as though he was key in getting them to the Super Bowl.
They didn't put the glue together to become a Superbowl team until Gettleman got there. He gets the credit.
He also gets the credit for drafting McCaffrey with a top 10 pick - which is looking like as much a mistake as his selection of Barkley in New York a year later.
Now - perhaps he had better scouts (ie not Chris Mara) in Carolina.
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In comment 15445543 ghost718 said:
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I think Gettleman's run in Carolina is enough evidence he can do the job.But it's never properly examined to those who've already made up their minds.
Gettleman didn't build that Panthers SB team into a winner. Several key pieces including some sure fire hall of famers were on the team before Gettleman was hired by Carolina. Among those players that were there prior to Gettleman;
Cam Newton
Luke Kuechly
Ryan Khalil
Greg Olsen
Thomas Davis
Jonathan Stewart
There were a few other less impactful starters that were already there such as Ted Ginn.
That team wasn't built by Gettleman. However he certainly likes to paint it as though he was key in getting them to the Super Bowl.
They didn't put the glue together to become a Superbowl team until Gettleman got there. He gets the credit.
He also gets the credit for drafting McCaffrey with a top 10 pick - which is looking like as much a mistake as his selection of Barkley in New York a year later.
Now - perhaps he had better scouts (ie not Chris Mara) in Carolina.
So Reese gets the credit for the 2007 SB team and not Accorsi, right?
Mistake #is calling the second half of last season good. They ended the season 1-3, an unmitigated disaster. Giants fans, myself included, allowed 1 game in Seattle cloud our judgement into thinking this team turned some kind of corner. They did not. They had 1 good game and then went right back to shutting the bed, repeatedly. They have opened this season this season same. We are a terrible team and from year to year we have improved nothing under Gettleman.
I can't argue with you on that. Maybe good was too strong a word, but I do feel there was some optimism that the team was heading in the right direction. This is obviously no longer true
That's kind of like saying it's not a big deal if a guy with 20k in the bank loses 15k in Vegas because Elon Musk has lost that amount in one hand.
It's almost as if every draft class consists of far more players who won't meet their promise than those who do, and those poor prospects still get drafted. I think you've cracked a code!
How this exonerates Gettleman, however, is anyone's guess.
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another example - Packers 2018 and 2019 drafts - those pretty much sucked.
It's almost as if every draft class consists of far more players who won't meet their promise than those who do, and those poor prospects still get drafted. I think you've cracked a code!
How this exonerates Gettleman, however, is anyone's guess.
Somehow the teams that Ryan has chosen tend to be among the best in the league. If sucking at the draft is the recipe for success, then there's still something else that Gettleman is fucking up, because we've sucked for his entire tenure.
Ryan's strategy continues to be "fight the battle, ignore the war"