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For the Dave Gettleman Detractors

DannyDimes : 11/5/2021 8:41 am
"Incompetent" "Horrible" "Worst GM in the league..."

You people make me laugh. In his 4 years as Giants GM Pro Football Focus has DG WAY above average.

Pro Football focus "Regrading the Draft"

Because this forum has very limited tools, you'll have to cut and paste the URLs yourselves if you wish to read the articles...

2018: Average
https://www.pff.com/news/regrading-the-2018-nfl-draft-classes-ravens-bills-and-buccaneers-among-nfls-biggest-winners

2019:Average
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-regrading-2019-nfl-draft-classes-tennessee-titans-san-francisco-49ers

2020: A
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-regrading-2020-nfl-draft-classes-tampa-bay-buccaneers-minnesota-vikings

2021: B+
https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2021-nfl-draft-grades-all-32-teams
Drafting is only part of a GM’s job  
cosmicj : 11/5/2021 8:43 am : link
Not that I like the Giants drafting.
There are some talented players on the team..  
Sean : 11/5/2021 8:46 am : link
But, the roster construction is awful.
They went from  
section125 : 11/5/2021 8:47 am : link
being in very good cap space to on the edge and then way over for next year on a team with two wins. All in about two months last spring.

The drafting has vastly improved since the Ross Reese era.  
Chip : 11/5/2021 8:47 am : link
But what has not been fixed is the OL. It ruined the end of the Eli era.
Drafting is only  
BigBlueJ : 11/5/2021 8:48 am : link
one part of his fucking job. There are other areas of roster construction and overall strategy. He has been awful.
I don't think DG has been as bad as people think  
ImThatGuy : 11/5/2021 8:50 am : link
He's tenure is largely clouded by the awful Solder deal (and what appears to be the awful Golladay situation).

However in the Solder case I think it was more Mara than anything else. Everyone knew our OL was pathetic and people were screaming that we needed to upgrade our OL. Solder at the time was a highly regarded LT so it made sense to go and grab him, he was the best FA OL on the market. Did we overpay - yes, but thats what you do in FA. And I have a feeling DG was looking for any way possible to upgrade the OL and appease the owners.

Same thing with Golladay "We need to get DJ more weapons .... "
So these are bad grades?  
AdamBrag : 11/5/2021 8:52 am : link
It's not like we don't know how the players have actually turned out. It's not pretty.
Once you realize  
mittenedman : 11/5/2021 8:54 am : link
he isn't making the decisions, you are born again.
Seriously  
jvm52106 : 11/5/2021 8:55 am : link
use your fucking EYES!

We draft guys that don't mesh well with what we are trying to do or draft too many guys at a position (our hybrid 3/4 DT/DE) that cannot really change the outcome of a game because this is a passing league and you need PASS RUSHERS and grabs guys- SB who cannot produce without the OLINE that he has failed miserably at building.

So please, tell me again how great DG is!
What trophy do they give out for  
GiantsRage2007 : 11/5/2021 8:55 am : link
Better than Average Drafts?

Or does the NFL go by win loss record and then play playoff games?
2018  
ajr2456 : 11/5/2021 8:56 am : link
Draft was not average.
This is so dumb  
Blue The Dog : 11/5/2021 8:56 am : link
From the people who say the media is dumb, and don't trust what they say about the Saquon and Jones pick, comes the argument that, "actually Dave drafted well. Look at the draft grades the media gave him before the players played a down in the NFL"
Who even cares about draft grades made the night of?  
Blue The Dog : 11/5/2021 8:59 am : link
They are dumb when they are put out, and even more dumb years later. Half of the discussion around draft time is people saying how dumb immediate draft grades are.
I just  
ajr2456 : 11/5/2021 8:59 am : link
Can’t believe we have Gettleman defenders. Is this a PR intern for the Giants?
RE: I just  
SirLoinOfBeef : 11/5/2021 9:01 am : link
In comment 15443824 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Can’t believe we have Gettleman defenders. Is this a PR intern for the Giants?


Maybe he's Hanlon's nephew...

I hope he keeps the handle.
15-39  
BlueVinnie : 11/5/2021 9:03 am : link
In a league that strives for parity.
Case Closed!



The team’s record speaks for itself  
markky : 11/5/2021 9:04 am : link
DG has been horrible. There is no way you could objectively conclude that his tenure has been anything but a disaster.

Nate F'ing Solder  
Bold Ruler : Mod : 11/5/2021 9:06 am : link
.
RE: 15-39  
Everyone Relax : 11/5/2021 9:09 am : link
In comment 15443832 BlueVinnie said:
Quote:
In a league that strives for parity.
Case Closed!




This is all that matters. There's no defending the guy anymore. His sales pitch was rebuilding the offensive and defensive lines, and we arguably have the worst of each.
what this team lacks in talent  
ron mexico : 11/5/2021 9:10 am : link
is only surpassed by it lack of depth
RE: 15-39  
ron mexico : 11/5/2021 9:12 am : link
In comment 15443832 BlueVinnie said:
Quote:
In a league that strives for parity.
Case Closed!




Its fuckin real hard to lose this much in the NFL

The guy has been on the job for 4 years  
Mike from Ohio : 11/5/2021 9:14 am : link
and each year this team can only manage 2 wins in the first half of the year. Nobody (outside of select Giants fans) argue that even at full health this is a roster that can compete for the division title. Yet PFS says the drafts were average or good, so the GM is doing a good job?

So the suggestion for the OP is just to keep doing what you are doing and hope at some point it just results in a different outcome? There may be a word for that...
For the love of God..  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 11/5/2021 9:15 am : link
How can anyone defend this dude?
RE: For the love of God..  
Bear vs Shark : 11/5/2021 9:16 am : link
In comment 15443856 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
How can anyone defend this dude?
Seriously, imagine trying to throw shade at the "detractors" right now?

OP is a lunatic
RE: 2018  
rsjem1979 : 11/5/2021 9:17 am : link
In comment 15443817 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Draft was not average.


And even if it was, having an "average" draft when you have the #2 overall pick, #34 overall pick, and two third round picks is not good. Personally, I think the 2018 draft was a complete train wreck, both philosophically and in execution.

Like the 2018 draft, the 2019 draft that was initially "above average" was revised down to "average". And the 2020 draft that was initially an A was revised down to a B.

And as others have pointed out, being the GM of an NFL franchise is about more than the draft. If Dave Gettleman was the head of scouting he'd at least be in a position to do less damage than he's done.
Hahahaha  
Jerry in_DC : 11/5/2021 9:25 am : link
I only read the 2018 write up. Couple of points

- written in May, so no info from this year
- rightfully criticizes Barkley and Hernandez
- says "the saving grace " is BJ Hill

In case you don't recall, we had the #2 pick
this is one of the more comical OPs I've read  
bigbluehoya : 11/5/2021 9:28 am : link
since Tommer & Hash and Beaversausages.
This thread is comical  
giantstock : 11/5/2021 9:30 am : link
I just skimmed over and saw a point was teh 2018 draft was "Average."

The OP certainly got me to laugh this morning. Thanks for that.

Other than that, this thread is a joke. All of us that were very pissed for taking a RB with 2nd pick for a rebuilding team and after reading SY's observations ta the time with Hernandez and seeing how Carter has performed - the drat is called "average?" This is all "average" and for those of us that knew the number 2 pick selection was incredibly dumb? Unreal the blindness of some posters.

Then add in you had THIS SUMMER DG admitting that he blundered by trying to win and rebuild at the same time admitting that was wrong. SO he shouldn't get blasted for being a moron by trying to do both instead of having the recognition that it's stupid to try to do both AT THE SAME TIME? And yet we still have some blind Giants fans sticking up for him? Unreal.
The OP responded in the other DG thread  
UberAlias : 11/5/2021 9:30 am : link
and then created this one? You couldn't have posted this in the other DG thread?
RE: RE: 15-39  
sr267 : 11/5/2021 9:31 am : link
In comment 15443849 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 15443832 BlueVinnie said:


Quote:


In a league that strives for parity.
Case Closed!






Its fuckin real hard to lose this much in the NFL


Seriously. Sometimes I think, how the hell did we eek out 8 wins with the likes of Scott Gragg and Greg Bishop, and now we can't sniff that kind of "success"....
RE: There are some talented players on the team..  
BillT : 11/5/2021 9:34 am : link
In comment 15443794 Sean said:
Quote:
But, the roster construction is awful.

This is what the issue is. DG came in and promised the OL was a priority. After two years lhe had drafted one OL and signed one FA OL that were still on the team. He should have been fired then. This not to mention not acquiring additional draft choices by trading the #2 pick in 2018 and spending draft choices to move up in 2019. Just the opposite of what was needed to restock the terrible roster he inherited.
The GM is responsible for the product on the field  
Ben in Tampa : 11/5/2021 9:37 am : link
period. Buck stops with that seat.

He has not produced anything close to a winner in 4 years and the team may in fact be worse.
the big dave deadenders  
NotIraInSI : 11/5/2021 9:37 am : link
are like a cult.
I want Gettleman out of the building.  
Gruber : 11/5/2021 9:38 am : link
End of.
17-39  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/5/2021 9:39 am : link
What's your obsession with defending a shitty GM?
Drafting ''average'' when you have the #2 and #6 overall  
sb from NYT Forum : 11/5/2021 9:41 am : link
...in each round is catastrophically bad.

Also I don't agree with any of those rankings.
This is DG's tenure and his fanboys' POV:  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/5/2021 9:42 am : link
I wonder if you polled  
Dnew15 : 11/5/2021 9:46 am : link
other GMs and league executives around the NFL what they thought of DG, they would be able to get an answer out without snickering.
RE: There are some talented players on the team..  
christian : 11/5/2021 9:49 am : link
In comment 15443794 Sean said:
Quote:
But, the roster construction is awful.


The reality is you can take that same view of the 2017 Giants. There are a bunch of players from that team still playing pretty good football 5 years later.

Good football teams are well coached, have a solid depth, starting players on the talent spectrum from serviceable to very good, and a clear identity.
*points up*  
Scooter185 : 11/5/2021 9:53 am : link
That's bait
RE: I wonder if you polled  
rsjem1979 : 11/5/2021 9:54 am : link
In comment 15443916 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
other GMs and league executives around the NFL what they thought of DG, they would be able to get an answer out without snickering.


My guess is you could have taken the same poll in 2017 and gotten similar results. There's only one franchise that even considered hiring him, and they hired him.

It was a joke then, and it's only gotten worse.
Take a running back  
joeinpa : 11/5/2021 10:10 am : link
At # 2, in the process passing on Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson

Spend major resources on Nate Soldier and Peart as O line depth with very poor results

Invest in players with a history of injury

I don’t think a draft rating of above average means much when you view the results. Besides, he s been drafting pretty high, he should have had outstanding drafts.
2018 was average, huh  
Greg from LI : 11/5/2021 10:16 am : link
Barkley - played in 7 games the past two seasons and done little in them

Hernandez - bust

Carter - bust

Hill - decent rotational DT, traded

Lauletta - Lulz

McIntosh - barely ever even suited up


It was an awful draft.
This  
The Jake : 11/5/2021 10:16 am : link
has to be a troll job, right?

Draft grades are your evidence?
RE: This  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/5/2021 10:22 am : link
In comment 15443964 The Jake said:
Quote:
has to be a troll job, right?

Draft grades are your evidence?

DannyDimes is absolutely a troll.

But if Eric & co. won't get rid of him, we don't have to cushion the fall.
Great post.  
BrettNYG10 : 11/5/2021 10:30 am : link
No amount of success is going to change the haters' minds.

No one appreciates quality until it's gone.
how are those 'hog mollies' doing?  
islander1 : 11/5/2021 10:34 am : link
.
Rome wasn't built in a day  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/5/2021 10:36 am : link
.
RE: Great post.  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/5/2021 10:41 am : link
In comment 15443986 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
No amount of success is going to change the haters' minds.

No one appreciates quality until it's gone.

In that case, I for one am looking forward to appreciating it.
It's fine for Danny Dimes to create threads/posts like these.  
Jimmy Googs : 11/5/2021 10:45 am : link
The DG Fan Club and Defenders of the Faith seem to have lost of lot of their membership. And at least Danny here is brave enough to keep sending up flares before the ship goes down. Good for you to fight the brave fight!

In retrospect to all of the criticism I (and others) have given Gettleman defenders in the past, it isn't even satisfying to say "I told you so". Not because we can't but because the mistakes/missteps were so plainly obvious that anybody with an objective mind could see the trouble with most, if not all, of his moves.

I will miss the press conferences the most...

RE: 15-39  
Les in TO : 11/5/2021 10:46 am : link
In comment 15443832 BlueVinnie said:
Quote:
In a league that strives for parity.
Case Closed!


Case closed indeed. The only general manager with a worse winning percentage is Matt Millen who thought it would be a good idea to draft wide receivers in the first round year after year.

Gettleman has been an unmitigated disaster. Drafting Barkley second overall, who is either injured or the football equivalent of Adam Dunn (1 home run for every 20 strikeouts) over Q Nelson who doesn’t miss time and would have been a cog on the interior line for a decade was negligence. Signing Nate Solder - who makes me miss Ereck Flowers - to a rich contract because he shared the same air as Tom Brady was gross negligence. Hiring Pat Shurmur because he was mature was just amazingly stupid. And there are many other examples of his mismanagement of valuable free agency and draft capital.
RE: It's fine for Danny Dimes to create threads/posts like these.  
ajr2456 : 11/5/2021 10:50 am : link
In comment 15444006 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
The DG Fan Club and Defenders of the Faith seem to have lost of lot of their membership. And at least Danny here is brave enough to keep sending up flares before the ship goes down. Good for you to fight the brave fight!

In retrospect to all of the criticism I (and others) have given Gettleman defenders in the past, it isn't even satisfying to say "I told you so". Not because we can't but because the mistakes/missteps were so plainly obvious that anybody with an objective mind could see the trouble with most, if not all, of his moves.

I will miss the press conferences the most...


It’s just funny when admins call the fan base stupid for being critical of Jones but we get posts like the OPs
...  
ryanmkeane : 11/5/2021 11:12 am : link
people on this board way overestimate a single GM's ability to draft great players. It's about drafting a few great players combined with roster management. Get the coach right, get the QB right, and don't have too many swings and misses with high picks, and you'll be alright.

Gettleman's actual drafts have in large part been fairly decent when compared to the rest of the league. The issue was hiring Shurmur, holding on for dear life to Eli (argue it all you want, it was going to happen regardless) and then mishandling 2018 and 2019 free agency, trying to spend to win instead of taking a step back and retooling, which is what they did in large part with 2020, smart signings.

His ability to scout players is actually quite solid. It's the rest of the stuff that hasn't worked out.
...  
ryanmkeane : 11/5/2021 11:14 am : link
for example, if DG had let Eli run it's course, but stuck to his draft process and just drafted the single best players instead of trying to plug holes, and we had done this from 2018-2020, pretty much a guarantee that the team would be a lot better right now. Because he can draft good players.

But - they decided to try and patchwork it all together. It was a severe misstep.
RE: ...  
ajr2456 : 11/5/2021 11:15 am : link
In comment 15444035 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
people on this board way overestimate a single GM's ability to draft great players. It's about drafting a few great players combined with roster management. Get the coach right, get the QB right, and don't have too many swings and misses with high picks, and you'll be alright.

Gettleman's actual drafts have in large part been fairly decent when compared to the rest of the league. The issue was hiring Shurmur, holding on for dear life to Eli (argue it all you want, it was going to happen regardless) and then mishandling 2018 and 2019 free agency, trying to spend to win instead of taking a step back and retooling, which is what they did in large part with 2020, smart signings.

His ability to scout players is actually quite solid. It's the rest of the stuff that hasn't worked out.


Have they been decent? Who from his 2018-2020 drafts are going to get a second contract? As of right now the only certainty is Thomas. Maybe Lawrence and Jones.
...  
ryanmkeane : 11/5/2021 11:16 am : link
the 2020 and 2021 drafts were about the future, drafting the best players who they thought had bright futures in the league regardless of if they could play right away or be good right away. Need more of that.
RE: ...  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/5/2021 11:17 am : link
In comment 15444035 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
people on this board way overestimate a single GM's ability to draft great players. It's about drafting a few great players combined with roster management. Get the coach right, get the QB right, and don't have too many swings and misses with high picks, and you'll be alright.

Gettleman's actual drafts have in large part been fairly decent when compared to the rest of the league. The issue was hiring Shurmur, holding on for dear life to Eli (argue it all you want, it was going to happen regardless) and then mishandling 2018 and 2019 free agency, trying to spend to win instead of taking a step back and retooling, which is what they did in large part with 2020, smart signings.

His ability to scout players is actually quite solid. It's the rest of the stuff that hasn't worked out.

Ryan, I appreciate your viewpoint, but they've only played 8 games this season and only 56 games under DG. Can we at least get to 17 games this year and 100 under DG before we start to give up on the plan?
ajr  
ryanmkeane : 11/5/2021 11:19 am : link
you are proving my point. Look around the league. Every other team experiences the same thing. You'll have drafts where not a single player gets a second contract or performs better than their draft stock.

Look at 49ers. Everyone was all over Lynch and their "plan" and how awesome it was. Since 2015, they've had 1 winning season. Just one. Their drafts have not been that good.

It's about hitting on some great players, establishing the HC and QB, and going from there.
2019 is NOT an average haul  
GiantsFan84 : 11/5/2021 11:20 am : link
they had 3 first round picks and you can make a strong case they didn't come away with 1 difference maker out of the 3
Watch  
Thegratefulhead : 11/5/2021 11:21 am : link
The Giants are fucking painful to watch. That is not hyperbole. At the start of the game you don't know where the dick punch is coming from, but, you are certain it is coming. It is the one thing DG teams do with consistency. Punch the fans right square in the dick.
There hasn't been a single week in the past 4 seasons  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/5/2021 11:21 am : link
in which the Giants have even been a single game over .500...at any time EVER over the past 4 years.

It takes a very, very special level of ineptitude for a Front Office to achieve that.
RE: ...  
Jimmy Googs : 11/5/2021 11:21 am : link
In comment 15444035 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
people on this board way overestimate a single GM's ability to draft great players. It's about drafting a few great players combined with roster management. Get the coach right, get the QB right, and don't have too many swings and misses with high picks, and you'll be alright.

Gettleman's actual drafts have in large part been fairly decent when compared to the rest of the league. The issue was hiring Shurmur, holding on for dear life to Eli (argue it all you want, it was going to happen regardless) and then mishandling 2018 and 2019 free agency, trying to spend to win instead of taking a step back and retooling, which is what they did in large part with 2020, smart signings.

His ability to scout players is actually quite solid. It's the rest of the stuff that hasn't worked out.


Good lord.

- Shurmur hasn't coached a game for them since Dec 2019.
- Eli was replaced by DJ in Sept 2019.
- Other than Shepard & Engram, this roster is 100% Gettleman's, and he still kept paying both of them.

At least make a reasonable argument here...
ajr  
ryanmkeane : 11/5/2021 11:22 am : link
what's also annoying to me is that there's this notion that "not getting a second contract" means it was a bad draft pick. That's by no means true or the rule.

You can pick a good player and they play well for a few years, and then they get a shitload of money in FA, maybe because they are a bit overrated, they are getting way more than they are worth, and because of the situation of your team, you might say ok no thanks, we're moving on. Happens all the time.

..  
ryanmkeane : 11/5/2021 11:23 am : link
again, you guys are not listening to me. You're reading my posts and then thinking I am saying something different than what I am actually saying.

RE: ajr  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/5/2021 11:25 am : link
In comment 15444050 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
you are proving my point. Look around the league. Every other team experiences the same thing. You'll have drafts where not a single player gets a second contract or performs better than their draft stock.

Look at 49ers. Everyone was all over Lynch and their "plan" and how awesome it was. Since 2015, they've had 1 winning season. Just one. Their drafts have not been that good.

It's about hitting on some great players, establishing the HC and QB, and going from there.

They went to the Super Bowl during that ONE winning season. That's been our calling card for nearly two decades, and I don't see you minimizing that.

Can we win SEVEN games in a season before you start chirping? Do you ever get embarrassed about your constant pollyanna routine?
RE: ajr  
ajr2456 : 11/5/2021 11:25 am : link
In comment 15444057 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
what's also annoying to me is that there's this notion that "not getting a second contract" means it was a bad draft pick. That's by no means true or the rule.

You can pick a good player and they play well for a few years, and then they get a shitload of money in FA, maybe because they are a bit overrated, they are getting way more than they are worth, and because of the situation of your team, you might say ok no thanks, we're moving on. Happens all the time.


But those players who won’t get second contracts aren’t not getting them from the Giants because they’re getting a shit ton of money in free agency.

You know what teams have pick #2 in a draft and come away with one player who was had a marginal impact and no other good players? You know what teams have three first round picks and end up with zero high impact players? Bad teams
RE: ..  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/5/2021 11:25 am : link
In comment 15444061 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
again, you guys are not listening to me. You're reading my posts and then thinking I am saying something different than what I am actually saying.

No one listens to you because you're useless.
Come on, guys.  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/5/2021 11:26 am : link
Let's wait until the end of the season to revaluate and reassess.
RE: Hahahaha  
Cap'n Bluebeard : 11/5/2021 11:26 am : link
In comment 15443873 Jerry in_DC said:
Quote:
I only read the 2018 write up. Couple of points

- written in May, so no info from this year
- rightfully criticizes Barkley and Hernandez
- says "the saving grace " is BJ Hill

In case you don't recall, we had the #2 pick


The "saving grace" of the draft is no longer on the team. You would have to assume that even PFF would call this a below average draft at this point then, no?
...  
ryanmkeane : 11/5/2021 11:27 am : link
it's a coach and QB league. Gettleman's drafts have been essentially the same as the league average. Your hatred of him is clouding your judgement if you think that isn't true.

RE: ...  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/5/2021 11:28 am : link
In comment 15444076 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
it's a coach and QB league. Gettleman's drafts have been essentially the same as the league average. Your hatred of him is clouding your judgement if you think that isn't true.

So you think the coach and QB have sucked during DG's entire tenure?

Who chose each?
That 2018 draft fucking sucked.  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/5/2021 11:28 am : link
Right up there with some of Reese's drafts later on in his run. Brutal. BTW, how's year 4 of fixing that OL going?
RE: ...  
ajr2456 : 11/5/2021 11:29 am : link
In comment 15444076 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
it's a coach and QB league. Gettleman's drafts have been essentially the same as the league average. Your hatred of him is clouding your judgement if you think that isn't true.


League average??? The 2018 draft only netted them Saqoun. Of three 2019 first round picks the only potential useful player may be Lawrence who is average at best.
...  
ryanmkeane : 11/5/2021 11:29 am : link
what the fuck is the point of this conversation if you're not willing to see through the results of actual drafts of other teams?

You guys hate Gettleman. That's fine. He'll be gone after this year. Again, totally fine.

But just calm the fuck down - every time I post something that doesn't jive with your narrative you have a fucking conniption.
Let's use the scientific method.  
Thegratefulhead : 11/5/2021 11:29 am : link
17-39

Outscored 1146-1420

Dave Gettleman sucks.

Facts.
It's fun watching Ryan paint himself into a corner  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/5/2021 11:29 am : link
if only he had enough self-awareness to STFU.
Dunk  
ryanmkeane : 11/5/2021 11:30 am : link
there is no point in having a conversation with you. It's extremely painful.
RE: ...  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/5/2021 11:30 am : link
In comment 15444081 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
what the fuck is the point of this conversation if you're not willing to see through the results of actual drafts of other teams?

You guys hate Gettleman. That's fine. He'll be gone after this year. Again, totally fine.

But just calm the fuck down - every time I post something that doesn't jive with your narrative you have a fucking conniption.

It's not about the narrative. It's because you're a fucking idiot.
...  
ryanmkeane : 11/5/2021 11:30 am : link
what's going to be hilarious is when the next GM swings and misses at first round picks. You guys will love it.
RE: ...  
ajr2456 : 11/5/2021 11:31 am : link
In comment 15444081 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
what the fuck is the point of this conversation if you're not willing to see through the results of actual drafts of other teams?

You guys hate Gettleman. That's fine. He'll be gone after this year. Again, totally fine.

But just calm the fuck down - every time I post something that doesn't jive with your narrative you have a fucking conniption.


Point out other teams that have struck out like he did in 2018 and 2019. You’ll notice they all have one thing in common.
..  
ryanmkeane : 11/5/2021 11:31 am : link
Dunk, you gotta seek help man. It'll get better for you down the road.
RE: Dunk  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/5/2021 11:31 am : link
In comment 15444084 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
there is no point in having a conversation with you. It's extremely painful.

I'm sure it is painful for you. Because I'm aware of the NFL in general. I know how to run a regression and determine correlations to winning. I understand the salary cap and it's downstream implications.

And you do none of those things and just want everyone to wait a few more weeks, every year. Do you even understand how absurd you sound week after week?
RE: ...  
Jimmy Googs : 11/5/2021 11:31 am : link
In comment 15444076 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
it's a coach and QB league. Gettleman's drafts have been essentially the same as the league average. Your hatred of him is clouding your judgement if you think that isn't true.


Then how come the Giant's don't win at least at the league average? And this has now happened under 2 coaches and 2 QBs.

I may not like DG, but my judgment is not clouded at all.
ajr  
ryanmkeane : 11/5/2021 11:33 am : link
oh yeah? You're making this too easy my man. How did the Chiefs drafts go in 2018 and 2019? I can't see a single difference maker from those drafts. Most of those players might not even be on the team anymore.

Guess what. They have Andy Reid and Patrick Mahomes. Hardman was the "best" player they took from 2018 and 2019. He pretty much sucks.
RE: ...  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/5/2021 11:34 am : link
In comment 15444087 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
what's going to be hilarious is when the next GM swings and misses at first round picks. You guys will love it.

So let's keep this GM who swings and misses at his picks, and his free agent signings, and stands in front of a podium, promises a particular direction and fails at that? That's your reason for defending this shitshow? Because the next GM might also fail?

You ask everyone to be patient about the season every year, but you've already decided that the next GM is going to fail?

What a joke you are. You think I need help? Send me your address and I'll buy you a mirror.
You don't expect every draft pick to get a second contract  
Mike from Ohio : 11/5/2021 11:35 am : link
but you do expect most, if not all, of your first round picks to get one, or at least become solid contributors that you would like to keep.

Say what you want about Barkley at #2, but knowing what you know now, he was not worth that pick. He's fun to watch when he is healthy, but he spends too many games in street clothes. Does anyone want to give him a massive 2nd contract full of guarantees?

Daniel Jones is serviceable, but in a redraft would anyone take him top 10? No. Has he earned a second contract? Most would argue no unless it is well below what most first round picks sign second contracts for. I don't think many believe paying him $30M+ a year for several years is a wise investment.

Lawrence and Baker? A decent (not spectacular) player and a guy who is no longer here.

Thomas looks promising and so does Toney, but it is way too early to conclude that Toney was or wasn't a good pick. He just doesn't have enough of a track record yet.

All of this is hindsight, but you can't evaluate results on "well who would you have picked?" You evaluate drafts based on results, and it is fair to say the Giants have not gotten much from their first round picks under DG from 2018 and 2019, and the latter rounds have not not produced many pleasant surprises either.
RE: ...  
Jimmy Googs : 11/5/2021 11:36 am : link
In comment 15444087 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
what's going to be hilarious is when the next GM swings and misses at first round picks. You guys will love it.


That will be hilarious...why?

Are the first round picks over the last 4 years changing the losing situation now?
RE: ajr  
ajr2456 : 11/5/2021 11:37 am : link
In comment 15444096 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
oh yeah? You're making this too easy my man. How did the Chiefs drafts go in 2018 and 2019? I can't see a single difference maker from those drafts. Most of those players might not even be on the team anymore.

Guess what. They have Andy Reid and Patrick Mahomes. Hardman was the "best" player they took from 2018 and 2019. He pretty much sucks.


The chiefs didn’t have a first round pick in either year. Let alone multiple top 10 picks.

Nnadi and Thornhill will be on the team, they’re good role players.
ajr  
ryanmkeane : 11/5/2021 11:38 am : link
good role players? and let me guess, the Giants haven't drafted any good role players right?

Come on man.
Googs  
ryanmkeane : 11/5/2021 11:39 am : link
its hilarious because you guys think some magic GM is going to come in and have a better hit ratio on draft picks. It's not going to happen.
RE: ajr  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/5/2021 11:40 am : link
In comment 15444108 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
good role players? and let me guess, the Giants haven't drafted any good role players right?

Come on man.

How many 1st round picks have the Chiefs had during that time? How many top 10 1st round picks have the Chiefs had during that time?

You genuinely don't understand the NFL, and that's probably why you're able to continue to be such a pollyanna.
All the next GM has to do is at some point  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/5/2021 11:41 am : link
over his first 4 seasons is be one game over .500 at any point during those seasons and he's done a better job than DG.

I'm not even talking about finishing a season over .500. But literally just being 1 game over .500 at any point during one of those seasons, and that GM is more successful than DG was here.

What a high bar. And to think anyone would defend DG considering that fact in any way, shape, or form is absolute madness.
RE: ajr  
ajr2456 : 11/5/2021 11:41 am : link
In comment 15444108 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
good role players? and let me guess, the Giants haven't drafted any good role players right?

Come on man.


You’re very bad at this. Just going to ignore your comparison didn’t have first round picks?
RE: Googs  
Mike from Ohio : 11/5/2021 11:41 am : link
In comment 15444109 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
its hilarious because you guys think some magic GM is going to come in and have a better hit ratio on draft picks. It's not going to happen.


So the argument for Gettleman is that there just isn't anyone better so why try?

His stated priority when he got here was to rebuild the offensive line, and nobody can argue that that was achieved. Despite draft picks and free agents thrown at it, it is still one of the worst in the league.

But sure, someone else might also fail, so just keep the guy who is already failing since we know him.
RE: Googs  
rsjem1979 : 11/5/2021 11:44 am : link
In comment 15444109 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
its hilarious because you guys think some magic GM is going to come in and have a better hit ratio on draft picks. It's not going to happen.


Maybe we'll have a GM who doesn't completely fuck up the #2 and #6 overall picks in back to back drafts. Maybe we'll have one who understands positional value and how to construct a roster in the modern NFL.

Maybe we'll have one who isn't a condescending shithead who thinks he's the smartest guy in the room despite building an atrocious team.

Just keep hoping and praying that things will get better, how's that working out for you?
..  
ryanmkeane : 11/5/2021 11:44 am : link
another example - Packers 2018 and 2019 drafts - those pretty much sucked. Jaire Alexander, Savage, and Gary, out of like 19 players they drafted from both of those drafts. Look at 2017. Look at 2020. Pretty awful.

They've gotten 1 player from each draft, sometimes 0, that you'd call a very good player.
RE: ..  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/5/2021 11:45 am : link
In comment 15444119 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
another example - Packers 2018 and 2019 drafts - those pretty much sucked. Jaire Alexander, Savage, and Gary, out of like 19 players they drafted from both of those drafts. Look at 2017. Look at 2020. Pretty awful.

They've gotten 1 player from each draft, sometimes 0, that you'd call a very good player.

So you think we need a better head coach and better QB?
Gettleman's performance is indefensible.  
Producer : 11/5/2021 11:45 am : link

A few good moments, of course, but you are overlooking a lot of *bad* if you contend he did a good job. He came into the job seeming out of step, and that hasn't changed.

Ultimately a GM is judged by the record of his club, or perhaps, if the club seems to be headed in a much better direction. DG fails on both counts. And the outlook is not good. Well beyond time to move on.
Imagine comparing our last 4 years to the Packers  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/5/2021 11:46 am : link
when we can't even get to a game over .500 at any point over the last 4 years.

This guy is a fucking moronic troll.
 
christian : 11/5/2021 11:46 am : link
The teams who draft first should get better players, right?
It is simply baffling that this team can be this bad  
Mike from Ohio : 11/5/2021 11:46 am : link
for this long, and people still think all the parts are right and at some point we will just start magically winning games.

The roster is poor but every GM sucks so it doesn't matter who has that job.

The offense is terrible but the QB and skill position players are awesome. The problem is the Oline. The Oline was built by the GM, but see above...everyone would have failed at building the line so it is what it is.

The GM was part of hiring Shurmur (fail), and Judge (TBD). They are also not responsible for the team losing, and if they are, well any other GM would have also hired bad coaches.

So I guess the answer is you hire guys and then you wait patiently for it to get better, no matter what. If it isn't better, you just haven't waited long enough.
Dave  
ryanmkeane : 11/5/2021 11:47 am : link
i'm talking about the actual players selected in the actual draft. Are you guys understanding this correctly?

The OP was about the players drafted.
RE: Dave  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/5/2021 11:47 am : link
In comment 15444126 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
i'm talking about the actual players selected in the actual draft. Are you guys understanding this correctly?

The OP was about the players drafted.

Your point is that it's a HC and QB league, right?

So we need a better HC and better QB?
RE: Dave  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/5/2021 11:48 am : link
In comment 15444126 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
i'm talking about the actual players selected in the actual draft. Are you guys understanding this correctly?

The OP was about the players drafted.


And you've also said you're looking forward to when the next GM misses on future 1st round picks in this very thread. We're well beyond sticking to just the thread topic and nothing else.

RE: Googs  
Jimmy Googs : 11/5/2021 11:49 am : link
In comment 15444109 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
its hilarious because you guys think some magic GM is going to come in and have a better hit ratio on draft picks. It's not going to happen.


I don't think he hits on average, in the draft or free agency.

But even if he does under your logic, the opportunity is there for someone to do better than average...right?

What's there to lose...someone do below average and we win less than 4 games per year? Minimal downside, agree?
RE: …  
Mike from Ohio : 11/5/2021 11:49 am : link
In comment 15444123 christian said:
Quote:
The teams who draft first should get better players, right?


That should be obvious, but I guess it isn't for all.
It was only a matter of time before we got to the part where  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/5/2021 11:49 am : link
people would actively root for a GM who doesn't even exist yet to fail at something just to try to make Gettleman seem not so much of a failure.
RE: ..  
ajr2456 : 11/5/2021 11:50 am : link
In comment 15444119 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
another example - Packers 2018 and 2019 drafts - those pretty much sucked. Jaire Alexander, Savage, and Gary, out of like 19 players they drafted from both of those drafts. Look at 2017. Look at 2020. Pretty awful.

They've gotten 1 player from each draft, sometimes 0, that you'd call a very good player.


And the HOF QB wants out because of it…
RE: It was only a matter of time before we got to the part where  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/5/2021 11:51 am : link
In comment 15444140 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
people would actively root for a GM who doesn't even exist yet to fail at something just to try to make Gettleman seem not so much of a failure.

I have to admit, I wasn't expecting the chief pollyanna to be rooting against the next GM so that he could retroactively defend his love for DG. It's a bit of a plot twist for me.
If the next GM goes 1-0 in his first game as GM,  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/5/2021 11:52 am : link
he's already been over .500 more than DG has been in his entire 4 year run here.

Think about that for a second. Think about that level of ineptitude. It's scary.
Dave  
ryanmkeane : 11/5/2021 11:52 am : link
you guys are not willing to admit the fact that every single GM in football goes years where they miss on draft picks and a a majority of them. And there are plenty of GMs in football who you guys think are better than Dave Gettleman at DRAFTING, who are not better than Dave Gettleman at drafting.

For the last fucking time, I'm not talking about the Giants record, Gettleman's record, whatever the fuck you guys want to discuss.

I'm talking about NFL draft player selection. The NFL is about HC, QB, and roster management. We thought we had the coach right this time, and he has really disappointed this year. A lot of us thought Jones was going to improve drastically this year, he has improved, but not to the ability that takes the team to the next level. It is what it is. He'll get the rest of the season to prove he's the guy. If he's not, we'll move on.
I get the arguments for Jones  
Mike from Ohio : 11/5/2021 11:53 am : link
I don't necessarily agree with them, but I understand them.

Gettleman? I don't know how anyone who follows the Giants can argue that he has not been, at best, a below average GM.

And if it isn't the GM and it isn't the coach, is it just the players? Is it just injuries? Outside of this board nobody expected the Giants to be a .500 team this year. Who is responsible for this prolonged futility, or is it simply bad luck that will turn around on it's own?

At some point someone has to be accountable for something, no?
 
christian : 11/5/2021 11:53 am : link
Why have the Giants been the worst team over the four years he’s been GM?

Why have a several other teams that were bad in 2018, been a lot better?
RE: Let's use the scientific method.  
DannyDimes : 11/5/2021 11:54 am : link
In comment 15444082 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
17-39

Outscored 1146-1420

Dave Gettleman sucks.

Facts.


Facts, DG didn't play a single down...
Ryan - while I don't agree really with much of your thinking  
Jimmy Googs : 11/5/2021 11:55 am : link
at least you are here trying to make a debate/ argument. And taking quite a bit of fire from a lot of guys, albeit much self-inflicted.

Need a few others to give you some help in defending the faith. The ones we hear from all offseason, during the LW signing, free agency, the draft and when all the media reports bash the team.

Anybody out there?
Everybody has their own take and I try not to bash  
Dinger : 11/5/2021 11:56 am : link
Here I think you can try and cull DG's positives and there definitely are some. But he came in saying the OL has to be fixed and while he immediately made some moves, they weren't good ones in hindsight. Were we the only ones to think Solder and Omameh were worth anything? Maybe he should have cut Flowers right off instead of seeing if he'd move to guard for us? But the past off season his response was that they had more confidence in the OL than the media and fans did. Seems we on the outside with less knowledge were correct. Whether its him or the 'team' he has surrounding him, talent is not evaluated well AT ALL. Whether its our own or college or pro personnel we stink at it. And we are too sentimental at times. I think that part of the 'Giants Way' needs to end or be curtailed. Keeping Solder too long, Engram too long not dropping Rudolph after the physical; just too many decisions not executed as football 'business' decisions. To have a player like Beal around for this long after his lack of contributions is telling. But after his 4 years here we are still lacking in so many areas that he truly needs to retire and the Giants need to make some significant changes.
RE: RE: Let's use the scientific method.  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/5/2021 11:56 am : link
In comment 15444149 DannyDimes said:
Quote:
In comment 15444082 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


17-39

Outscored 1146-1420

Dave Gettleman sucks.

Facts.



Facts, DG didn't play a single down...

But he chose 99%+ of those who did.
RE: Dave  
DannyDimes : 11/5/2021 11:56 am : link
In comment 15444145 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
you guys are not willing to admit the fact that every single GM in football goes years where they miss on draft picks and a a majority of them. And there are plenty of GMs in football who you guys think are better than Dave Gettleman at DRAFTING, who are not better than Dave Gettleman at drafting.

For the last fucking time, I'm not talking about the Giants record, Gettleman's record, whatever the fuck you guys want to discuss.

I'm talking about NFL draft player selection. The NFL is about HC, QB, and roster management. We thought we had the coach right this time, and he has really disappointed this year. A lot of us thought Jones was going to improve drastically this year, he has improved, but not to the ability that takes the team to the next level. It is what it is. He'll get the rest of the season to prove he's the guy. If he's not, we'll move on.


100% Agree. The players DG has drafted should have brought better results. how about the coaching take some hits? The position coaches, the coordinators and the head coach....

DG doesn't play the game and by any reasonable method, he is better than half the GMs in th eleague.
RE: Dave  
Thegratefulhead : 11/5/2021 11:57 am : link
In comment 15444145 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
you guys are not willing to admit the fact that every single GM in football goes years where they miss on draft picks and a a majority of them. And there are plenty of GMs in football who you guys think are better than Dave Gettleman at DRAFTING, who are not better than Dave Gettleman at drafting.

For the last fucking time, I'm not talking about the Giants record, Gettleman's record, whatever the fuck you guys want to discuss.

I'm talking about NFL draft player selection. The NFL is about HC, QB, and roster management. We thought we had the coach right this time, and he has really disappointed this year. A lot of us thought Jones was going to improve drastically this year, he has improved, but not to the ability that takes the team to the next level. It is what it is. He'll get the rest of the season to prove he's the guy. If he's not, we'll move on.
For the last fucking time.

The Giants record IS DAVE GETTLEMAN'S RECORD.

You want to remove accountability for the team's record from the General manager.

That is idiotic.

If it is the coach or QB's fault, it is ultimately the fault of the person who keeps them employed.

I don't know how to politely explain this to you without being rude.
RE: RE: Let's use the scientific method.  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/5/2021 11:58 am : link
In comment 15444149 DannyDimes said:
Quote:
In comment 15444082 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


17-39

Outscored 1146-1420

Dave Gettleman sucks.

Facts.



Facts, DG didn't play a single down...

Also, facts: the next nugget of value that you offer on this board with be your first.
RE: RE: Dave  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/5/2021 11:59 am : link
In comment 15444155 DannyDimes said:
Quote:
In comment 15444145 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


you guys are not willing to admit the fact that every single GM in football goes years where they miss on draft picks and a a majority of them. And there are plenty of GMs in football who you guys think are better than Dave Gettleman at DRAFTING, who are not better than Dave Gettleman at drafting.

For the last fucking time, I'm not talking about the Giants record, Gettleman's record, whatever the fuck you guys want to discuss.

I'm talking about NFL draft player selection. The NFL is about HC, QB, and roster management. We thought we had the coach right this time, and he has really disappointed this year. A lot of us thought Jones was going to improve drastically this year, he has improved, but not to the ability that takes the team to the next level. It is what it is. He'll get the rest of the season to prove he's the guy. If he's not, we'll move on.



100% Agree. The players DG has drafted should have brought better results. how about the coaching take some hits? The position coaches, the coordinators and the head coach....

DG doesn't play the game and by any reasonable method, he is better than half the GMs in th eleague.

Apparently the BBI short bus has at least two seats.
ryan,  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/5/2021 11:59 am : link
No one is expecting any GM to hit on every or even most of the picks said GM makes. Everyone realizes it's a bit of a crapshoot. You research the players, scout them, interview them, and make the best educated "guess" of the available players when you pick. No one is arguing that.

DG has been HORRENDOUS here at every turn, though. Draft, FA, trades, everything. HE IS NOT A GOOD GM anyway you slice it and try to shape it to us.

Defend not being a single game over .500 at any point over the last 4 seasons. You can't.

He's been awful here in every way.
I'm not usually in agreement  
Joey in VA : 11/5/2021 12:02 pm : link
With Gatorade Dunk but he's dead on here. Ryan, you just keep making yourself look stupid and that should be harder given your already terrible track record.
Ryan - you are all over the board with this post.At this point  
Jimmy Googs : 11/5/2021 12:02 pm : link
you cannot make a cohesive argument that DG has been average at ANYTHING. Will let you try again if you want...


In comment 15444145 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
you guys are not willing to admit the fact that every single GM in football goes years where they miss on draft picks and a a majority of them. And there are plenty of GMs in football who you guys think are better than Dave Gettleman at DRAFTING, who are not better than Dave Gettleman at drafting.

For the last fucking time, I'm not talking about the Giants record, Gettleman's record, whatever the fuck you guys want to discuss.

I'm talking about NFL draft player selection. The NFL is about HC, QB, and roster management. We thought we had the coach right this time, and he has really disappointed this year. A lot of us thought Jones was going to improve drastically this year, he has improved, but not to the ability that takes the team to the next level. It is what it is. He'll get the rest of the season to prove he's the guy. If he's not, we'll move on.
RE: RE: Let's use the scientific method.  
Thegratefulhead : 11/5/2021 12:03 pm : link
In comment 15444149 DannyDimes said:
Quote:
In comment 15444082 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


17-39

Outscored 1146-1420

Dave Gettleman sucks.

Facts.



Facts, DG didn't play a single down...

Did your brain fall out of your head?

Whos signs and drafts, players, coaches and staff?

Dave fucking Gettleman.

Who can fire them?

Dave fucking Gettleman.

Pick your brain up off the floor, wash it off, slap it back in and go take a nap. You are cranky and acting like an overtired toddler.
 
christian : 11/5/2021 12:04 pm : link
Dave Gettleman was among the principal decision makers in choosing the last two coaches. He was the principal architect of the construction of the team, including all veteran and amateur acquisitions.

In the time he’s been the GM the Giants have been the worst team in the NFL.

The Giants have not spent a single day in his tenure with a winning record.

Sure, by any reasonable measure he’s among the top half of GMs.

Unless those measures include winning games, going to the playoffs, winning playoff games, or competing for a championship.
Let's put it this way  
Mike from Ohio : 11/5/2021 12:10 pm : link
As Giants fans we love that the WFT and Cowboys are owned by Snyder and Jones and want them to stay there forever.

I think if you asked most WFT, Cowboy and Eagle fans, they would have the same perspective on Gettleman give the historically awful team the Giants have been during his four year tenure.

If your argument puts you with those fans, it's probably not what's best for the Giants.
RE: If the next GM goes 1-0 in his first game as GM,  
BlueVinnie : 11/5/2021 12:18 pm : link
In comment 15444144 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
he's already been over .500 more than DG has been in his entire 4 year run here.

Think about that for a second. Think about that level of ineptitude. It's scary.

LOL!!! Oh man, this may be my all-time favorite post!
Thanks for the chuckle Dave!
I'm starting to think  
NoGainDayne : 11/5/2021 12:21 pm : link
DannyDimes may actually be DannyDimes, he knows DG is the only one that's going to let him start for sure for perhaps the next couple of years so he's doing this to keep his career alive.

Also starting to think ryan is a troll. Maybe we should stop feeding the troll?

I think he'd wither away and die if we didn't engage him on his desired adventures into polyannaville.

He's no FMIC who it didn't matter if you fed him or not he literally had nothing better to do.

I think this guy needs the attention... Just my $.02
Let’s play along with Ryan  
ajr2456 : 11/5/2021 12:25 pm : link
And say Gettleman drafts at the league average. Why is that something people shouldn’t want improved?
Wow, some amazing things I've learned from this thread  
sb from NYT Forum : 11/5/2021 12:31 pm : link
1. NFL General Managers don't really do much to improve teams, so there's not point in firing one. (Sweet gig if you can get it, apparently!)

2. Some other teams have drafted as poorly as the Giants have, so there's no point in criticizing the Giants for their poor drafts (especially when you disregard that the Giants' top picks have consistently been in the top of each round the 3 of the past 4 years).

3. The general manager's FA signings and contract structure are not worth considering, but dated draft grades from PFF are.

Anything I miss?
RE: Let’s play along with Ryan  
Jimmy Googs : 11/5/2021 12:33 pm : link
In comment 15444205 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
And say Gettleman drafts at the league average. Why is that something people shouldn’t want improved?


I already asked that question, see 11:49am post above.

I think the silence is the answer...
The Giants have  
crick n NC : 11/5/2021 12:37 pm : link
missed way too many first round picks over the last ten years. If Barkley can't be a plus player and Jones ends up as a player not close in value to his draft status, the team can add two more to the pile. You gotta hit on your first round picks.
...  
christian : 11/5/2021 12:38 pm : link
The draft system is designed so the bad teams get the first crack, and presumably the better players.

The other variable is the better teams have better incumbents so presumably draftees will have a harder time cracking the lineup.

The better comparison is to teams who were bad in 2018/2019 and drafting in the range of the Giants. How do the Giants stack up against those teams.
RE: The Giants have  
ajr2456 : 11/5/2021 12:38 pm : link
In comment 15444219 crick n NC said:
Quote:
missed way too many first round picks over the last ten years. If Barkley can't be a plus player and Jones ends up as a player not close in value to his draft status, the team can add two more to the pile. You gotta hit on your first round picks.


We might have missed on three in one year!
RE: Dave  
mikeinbloomfield : 11/5/2021 12:43 pm : link
In comment 15444145 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
you guys are not willing to admit the fact that every single GM in football goes years where they miss on draft picks and a a majority of them. And there are plenty of GMs in football who you guys think are better than Dave Gettleman at DRAFTING, who are not better than Dave Gettleman at drafting.

For the last fucking time, I'm not talking about the Giants record, Gettleman's record, whatever the fuck you guys want to discuss.

I'm talking about NFL draft player selection. The NFL is about HC, QB, and roster management. We thought we had the coach right this time, and he has really disappointed this year. A lot of us thought Jones was going to improve drastically this year, he has improved, but not to the ability that takes the team to the next level. It is what it is. He'll get the rest of the season to prove he's the guy. If he's not, we'll move on.


Your analysis about how good Gettleman has drafted is based on grades given right after the draft, which are worse than useless. For one thing, they are entirely subjective while pretending to be data because you line up everyone's subjective grade.

There are lots of ways to tell how the Giants are drafting, but start with how many players he drafted are still on the team or how many all-pros or pro bowl players he drafted compared to other teams. I don't think his record will be good.

To kinda your point, the draft is only one piece of roster construction. The Rams could give a shit about the draft. There are other ways to build a roster.

The GM is responsible for roster construction and he has failed miserably.
RE: Dave  
The Jake : 11/5/2021 12:47 pm : link
In comment 15444145 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
The NFL is about HC, QB, and roster management.


I think the disconnect here comes from the fact that you make the above statement, yet you don't seem to attribute the faults in those three areas to the GM. Those are arguably his three main jobs as a GM.

1. Find a good coach - It's clear that Judge is in over his head when it comes to the basics of running a game. If this year turns out 5-12 or whatever, why should Judge get another shot? Because he yells and screams a lot?

2. QB - Over-drafted, has some talent, but no way can he hang with the top 10 QBs in the league, because he doesn't have the right vision and instincts. That means the pick spent for him was too high and the contract he'll get will be too much vis a vis what he actually brings to the table. Lose/lose for him and the franchise as he's set up to fail behind a terrible offensive line.

3. Roster Management - GTFO
Here's a good article that I think answers the question  
mikeinbloomfield : 11/5/2021 12:53 pm : link
Football Outsiders took a look at draft capital (number of picks and location) and measured based on value the player has, who got the most from their picks.

The top teams are probably who you expect. Guess who came in 21st for the last five years, and 24th overall? This doesn't yet count 2020 or 2021.
NFL Drafting Efficiency, 2010 - 2019 - ( New Window )
...  
christian : 11/5/2021 1:02 pm : link
Gettleman has picked 14 players in the top 100 (+ Sam Beal).

Of those 15 players, how many do you feel comfortable penciling in as starters next year?

I'd say in order of confidence: Thomas, Toney, Jones, Barkley, Ojulari, Lawrence, McKinney.

So basically two starters on a bad team per draft, picking towards the top each year?

Seems pretty average to me.
.  
Go Terps : 11/5/2021 1:11 pm : link
The talent on the roster is bottom five in the league, and that didn't even speak to how stupidly it has been assembled.

Gettleman is an incompetent slob whose exit from this team I will enjoy. Ray Handley can rest easy that he is no longer the worst thing to happen to the Giants in the last 50 years.

Fuck Dave Gettleman.
RE: Imagine comparing our last 4 years to the Packers  
compton : 11/5/2021 1:25 pm : link
In comment 15444122 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
when we can't even get to a game over .500 at any point over the last 4 years.

This guy is a fucking moronic troll.


A game over .500? You are asking for a lot. How about getting to .500 because we can't seem to sniff that mediocre benchmark.
RE: RE: The Giants have  
crick n NC : 11/5/2021 1:27 pm : link
In comment 15444221 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 15444219 crick n NC said:


Quote:


missed way too many first round picks over the last ten years. If Barkley can't be a plus player and Jones ends up as a player not close in value to his draft status, the team can add two more to the pile. You gotta hit on your first round picks.



We might have missed on three in one year!


I had not thought of that; but you're right.
first move  
hitdog42 : 11/5/2021 1:39 pm : link
bow down to mara and the giants way and try to reverse engineer a eli comeback in 2018.
results in--
- barkley pick, soldier signing, omaheh signing, corpse of jonathan stewart. so that was the initial setting back of the team for 2+ years and the starting point of any and every discussion.

the guy came in, after a disgraceful year, looked at the team, and thought he could make a run with a done QB. he also committed to the OL, which now still sucks.

those initial decisions are what have the giants still here. and then 2yrs later... started to kind of commit to an actual rebuild.

and then this summer, decided to blow the bank and a bunch of whatever... and the team still stinks.

great GM tenure... awesome job.


The only argument I can see for defending  
Thunderstruck27 : 11/5/2021 1:42 pm : link
DG at this point is that he is just a tool for the Maras to get their way. We know some of his decisions have been influenced.
Mind you...this argument doesn't mean he should still be the GM...just that some of the blame is misplaced.
RE: RE: Dave  
NoGainDayne : 11/5/2021 2:10 pm : link
In comment 15444229 The Jake said:
Quote:
In comment 15444145 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


The NFL is about HC, QB, and roster management.



I think the disconnect here comes from the fact that you make the above statement, yet you don't seem to attribute the faults in those three areas to the GM. Those are arguably his three main jobs as a GM.

1. Find a good coach - It's clear that Judge is in over his head when it comes to the basics of running a game. If this year turns out 5-12 or whatever, why should Judge get another shot? Because he yells and screams a lot?

2. QB - Over-drafted, has some talent, but no way can he hang with the top 10 QBs in the league, because he doesn't have the right vision and instincts. That means the pick spent for him was too high and the contract he'll get will be too much vis a vis what he actually brings to the table. Lose/lose for him and the franchise as he's set up to fail behind a terrible offensive line.

3. Roster Management - GTFO


I'm not sure if you remember our let's call them in a friendly way heated debates of the past. But it seems like you've mellowed out I'd say even more than myself lol.

Either way it's good to have you back! Especially involved in the highly needed sanity coalition around here
Gettleman must go  
English Alaister : 11/5/2021 2:56 pm : link
It is that simple. I have him every chance but he's not done the one thing he promised to do. Fix the OL.

I think he actually got a good few of the big decisions right. It is the smaller decisions in many ways that doomed him. Levine Toilolo, Devante Booker etc. We paid too much for some replacement players.

The big ones he missed on was Solder and to a degree Barkley. The latter may yet work out but seems increasingly unlikely.

The defenders of the faith and DG are running out of arguments  
Jimmy Googs : 11/5/2021 3:00 pm : link
Some highlights of DG's first four years and the drama...

2018 - Arrogant initial press sessions, god awful free agency signings led with Nate Solder, screwing up the #2 overall pick on a RB, giving OBJ a huge deal, thinking the team could still compete and Eli could still win as QB, winning 5 games with 4 against backup QBs, blaming Reese for leaving team in such poor state.

2019 - more arrogance with media, keeping Eli on payroll, trading OBJ debacle, more god awful free agent signings led with Golden Tate, panicking with Jones pick at #6, benching Eli after 2 games, Jones turning ball over at a record pace, winning 4 games all year, firing and blaming Shurmur.

2020 - hiring Judge, blaming COVID for disrupting new coach and implementing new system, Deandre Baker debacle, OL continues to be a disaster, centerpiece of offense Barkley tears ACL, Jones regressing, Engram becomes public enemy #2 behind DG, team can't get to 7 wins even in a crappy NFCE.

2021 - Leonard Williams outnegotiates DG for huge deal, big free agent spending spree but nothing new for OL nor in the draft, injuries decimate WR & OL units and Barkley once again, frantic restructuring of deals to stay under cap, Judge and staff come under fire for early coaching gaffes, team starts with only 2 wins in first half of season.

ahh memories...
RE: Gettleman must go  
Jimmy Googs : 11/5/2021 3:03 pm : link
In comment 15444437 English Alaister said:
Quote:
It is that simple. I have him every chance but he's not done the one thing he promised to do. Fix the OL.

I think he actually got a good few of the big decisions right. It is the smaller decisions in many ways that doomed him. Levine Toilolo, Devante Booker etc. We paid too much for some replacement players.

The big ones he missed on was Solder and to a degree Barkley. The latter may yet work out but seems increasingly unlikely.


The Levine Toilolo signing doomed us?

uh huh...
Trading Odell debacle  
Giants73 : 11/5/2021 3:08 pm : link
Seriously that should be the last argument for anti-Gettleman posters. No debacle about it. Only debacle is anyone ever being a fan of Odell, if it wasn’t for those fan boys; Mara would have let the org cut ties with him sooner.
RE: RE: Gettleman must go  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/5/2021 3:11 pm : link
In comment 15444442 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15444437 English Alaister said:


Quote:


It is that simple. I have him every chance but he's not done the one thing he promised to do. Fix the OL.

I think he actually got a good few of the big decisions right. It is the smaller decisions in many ways that doomed him. Levine Toilolo, Devante Booker etc. We paid too much for some replacement players.

The big ones he missed on was Solder and to a degree Barkley. The latter may yet work out but seems increasingly unlikely.




The Levine Toilolo signing doomed us?

uh huh...

I'll actually throw in a note that we restructured Toilolo's unguaranteed 2021 salary to free up some space for DG's spending spree this offseason, which resulted in newly guaranteed money which became dead money.

It was a pretty good metaphor for DG's tenure to date.
RE: Trading Odell debacle  
Jimmy Googs : 11/5/2021 3:13 pm : link
In comment 15444450 Giants73 said:
Quote:
Seriously that should be the last argument for anti-Gettleman posters. No debacle about it. Only debacle is anyone ever being a fan of Odell, if it wasn’t for those fan boys; Mara would have let the org cut ties with him sooner.


Debacle was putting up with his nonsense, giving him a big deal, still more nonsense...trading him was indeed a means to an end.

But the dead money hit and seeing that the assets gained in the deal really haven't delivered any more than any other DG acquisition is no surprise.
Here is my problem with Gettleman's time here....  
EricJ : 11/5/2021 3:18 pm : link
I know we joke about this, but the "Hog Mollies" comment he made was actually something I was happy to hear AT THAT TIME.

It sounded like he was going to repair our offensive line. Unfortunately, that is the one area of the team that was NOT improved AND it is the one that is IMO, the reason for our horrible record.

If we cannot run the ball and pass protect, then we cannot score, we cannot control the clock... and we lose.

We have been near the bottom of the league in time of possession for the past few years.

So, I really don't care whether some website ranks Gettleman high based upon his draft picks. It is meaningless. What I see with my eyes is our RBs are getting hit in the backfield and the QB is running for his life.
RE: RE: RE: Gettleman must go  
Jimmy Googs : 11/5/2021 3:19 pm : link
In comment 15444456 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15444442 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 15444437 English Alaister said:


Quote:


It is that simple. I have him every chance but he's not done the one thing he promised to do. Fix the OL.

I think he actually got a good few of the big decisions right. It is the smaller decisions in many ways that doomed him. Levine Toilolo, Devante Booker etc. We paid too much for some replacement players.

The big ones he missed on was Solder and to a degree Barkley. The latter may yet work out but seems increasingly unlikely.




The Levine Toilolo signing doomed us?

uh huh...


I'll actually throw in a note that we restructured Toilolo's unguaranteed 2021 salary to free up some space for DG's spending spree this offseason, which resulted in newly guaranteed money which became dead money.

It was a pretty good metaphor for DG's tenure to date.


Yeah, don't get me wrong...the Toilolo signing and restructuring is a perfect example of this crappy GM/FO at all levels of their decision making. Just keeping it in it's perspective relative to say a Solder deal...
RE: Trading Odell debacle  
christian : 11/5/2021 3:21 pm : link
In comment 15444450 Giants73 said:
Quote:
Seriously that should be the last argument for anti-Gettleman posters. No debacle about it. Only debacle is anyone ever being a fan of Odell, if it wasn’t for those fan boys; Mara would have let the org cut ties with him sooner.


You've got some now 10-year-olds to explain this to:

Quote:
“I had very mixed feelings about it because I happen to like the kid. I really do. I have two grandsons who sobbed uncontrollably when I called to tell them that we had traded him … one of whom is still not talking to me. They both said they’re going to be Browns fans this year. So that’s the effect he has. They’re 7 years old and they think he’s a god. I liked him a lot personally. He’s different. He’s not a bad kid.
RE: Here is my problem with Gettleman's time here....  
Dinger : 11/5/2021 3:29 pm : link
In comment 15444470 EricJ said:
Quote:
I know we joke about this, but the "Hog Mollies" comment he made was actually something I was happy to hear AT THAT TIME.

It sounded like he was going to repair our offensive line. Unfortunately, that is the one area of the team that was NOT improved AND it is the one that is IMO, the reason for our horrible record.

If we cannot run the ball and pass protect, then we cannot score, we cannot control the clock... and we lose.

We have been near the bottom of the league in time of possession for the past few years.

So, I really don't care whether some website ranks Gettleman high based upon his draft picks. It is meaningless. What I see with my eyes is our RBs are getting hit in the backfield and the QB is running for his life.


Absolutley agree. It was his biggest issue coming in(Yes there was the Eli question but the line MAY have given Eli a year more) he addressed it head on and then failed. Perhaps Andrew Thomas and Perhaps Nick Gates after 4 years. I mean its bad. And maybe I could see past it if another area was confirmed but we have no area that is 'set'(ok maybe DL).
wow....  
DannyDimes : 11/5/2021 3:31 pm : link
This place makes me embarrassed to be a Giants fan.... way more than a bad team does.
RE: wow....  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/5/2021 3:32 pm : link
In comment 15444484 DannyDimes said:
Quote:
This place makes me embarrassed to be a Giants fan.... way more than a bad team does.

It's mutual.
RE: RE: Gettleman must go  
English Alaister : 11/5/2021 3:34 pm : link
In comment 15444442 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15444437 English Alaister said:


Quote:


It is that simple. I have him every chance but he's not done the one thing he promised to do. Fix the OL.

I think he actually got a good few of the big decisions right. It is the smaller decisions in many ways that doomed him. Levine Toilolo, Devante Booker etc. We paid too much for some replacement players.

The big ones he missed on was Solder and to a degree Barkley. The latter may yet work out but seems increasingly unlikely.




The Levine Toilolo signing doomed us?

uh huh...


Not saying that. Just saying when you add up the little decisions there is a lot of money spent on non-performers and his track record there is terrible. I can almost excuse the big free agency misses and draft whiffs at times as he has hit his fair share. It is the consistent misses lower down that piss me off.

Solder, DeAndre Baker, Golden Tate. Plenty of big ones too.

RE: wow....  
Jimmy Googs : 11/5/2021 3:36 pm : link
In comment 15444484 DannyDimes said:
Quote:
This place makes me embarrassed to be a Giants fan.... way more than a bad team does.


Give it some time...
I missed the argument on the GM  
Giants73 : 11/5/2021 3:37 pm : link
Who has never had a bad signing and all their draft picks are in the pro bowl. Is there some comparisons of great GMs in the league right now.
RE: RE: RE: Gettleman must go  
Jimmy Googs : 11/5/2021 3:43 pm : link
In comment 15444492 English Alaister said:
Quote:


Not saying that. Just saying when you add up the little decisions there is a lot of money spent on non-performers and his track record there is terrible. I can almost excuse the big free agency misses and draft whiffs at times as he has hit his fair share. It is the consistent misses lower down that piss me off.

Solder, DeAndre Baker, Golden Tate. Plenty of big ones too.


EA - Not sure he has hit his fair share of anything but I get your sentiment on the small stuff. It chafes me too because it still goes to poor judgment.

Deals like signing a Jonathan Stewart on first day of 2018 free agency struck me right away as ridiculous albeit on a lower scale...
RE: I missed the argument on the GM  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/5/2021 3:47 pm : link
In comment 15444495 Giants73 said:
Quote:
Who has never had a bad signing and all their draft picks are in the pro bowl. Is there some comparisons of great GMs in the league right now.

No one is asking for DG (or any GM) to bat 1.000. But something better than .304 would be a step in the right direction.
RE: I missed the argument on the GM  
Jimmy Googs : 11/5/2021 3:48 pm : link
In comment 15444495 Giants73 said:
Quote:
Who has never had a bad signing and all their draft picks are in the pro bowl. Is there some comparisons of great GMs in the league right now.


17 wins and 39 losses over 3.5 years.

You really want to compare Getts to other GMs?
RE: RE: I missed the argument on the GM  
Giants73 : 11/5/2021 3:56 pm : link
In comment 15444512 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15444495 Giants73 said:


Quote:


Who has never had a bad signing and all their draft picks are in the pro bowl. Is there some comparisons of great GMs in the league right now.



17 wins and 39 losses over 3.5 years.

You really want to compare Getts to other GMs?


Name a better GM, sure we could go through their drafts and signings and find some garbage.
How many SB appearances?  
thrunthrublue : 11/5/2021 3:57 pm : link
Playoffs? Non last place finishes? C’mon man! Losers lose. FIRE DG!
RE: RE: RE: I missed the argument on the GM  
Jimmy Googs : 11/5/2021 4:02 pm : link
In comment 15444526 Giants73 said:
Quote:
In comment 15444512 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 15444495 Giants73 said:


Quote:


Who has never had a bad signing and all their draft picks are in the pro bowl. Is there some comparisons of great GMs in the league right now.



17 wins and 39 losses over 3.5 years.

You really want to compare Getts to other GMs?



Name a better GM, sure we could go through their drafts and signings and find some garbage.


I am sure you could find some garbage with every single one the existing 32 GMs. That's not the question.

The question is who are the real chucklehead GMs that keep finding the most garbage, spending the most money for it and getting the least out of it?

Dunk and I gave you a hint to take a look at winning percentage, say for the last 3.5 years or so...
Wow, I am stunned that there are still DG fanboys here  
.McL. : 11/5/2021 4:11 pm : link
I can see that the vast majority of the "wait and see people have turned against Gettleman.

But there are some who still actually like him... That is mind blowing to me.

Somebody recently posted an article about toxic positivity. The basic premise is that some people always stay positive no matter what because they don't want to handle and face difficult and painful situations straight on in order to fix them. Essentially it is a coping mechanism that allows them to justify doing nothing to fix the bad things in life.

At this point, that is the only reasonable explanation I can figure for anybody to still be supportive of DG. They fear the rebuild process more than sucky status quo.
 
christian : 11/5/2021 4:13 pm : link
This is starting to feel like the Giants hired the world’s worst PR agency, and the big idea was have these two guys post on BBI that being mean to the team isn’t nice.
DG could have been evaluated as a horrible GM  
.McL. : 11/5/2021 4:16 pm : link
in realtime... I did so many times...

And his tenure can still be evaluated as an utter disaster with full hindsight.

There is simply no way to spin DG's reign of terror as anything even approaching average.

And his legacy will continue for years of pain due to his ill conceived spending spree this past off season.
RE: …  
.McL. : 11/5/2021 4:18 pm : link
In comment 15444550 christian said:
Quote:
This is starting to feel like the Giants hired the world’s worst PR agency, and the big idea was have these two guys post on BBI that being mean to the team isn’t nice.


LOL...

Who knows, maybe its true... ;)
RE: Wow, I am stunned that there are still DG fanboys here  
Producer : 11/5/2021 4:21 pm : link
In comment 15444548 .McL. said:
Quote:
I can see that the vast majority of the "wait and see people have turned against Gettleman.

But there are some who still actually like him... That is mind blowing to me.

Somebody recently posted an article about toxic positivity. The basic premise is that some people always stay positive no matter what because they don't want to handle and face difficult and painful situations straight on in order to fix them. Essentially it is a coping mechanism that allows them to justify doing nothing to fix the bad things in life.

At this point, that is the only reasonable explanation I can figure for anybody to still be supportive of DG. They fear the rebuild process more than sucky status quo.


If there are people still unconvinced that Gettleman is a problem it may go to an inability to make decisions and make distinctions.

There is also an opportunity cost for maintaining a broken status quo. Time is our most precious resource, not Dave Gettleman. The more time we spend floundering with DG the longer we spend not turning things around, not pursuing more productive avenues, while the league continues to pass you by. Change is good. Embrace change.
RE: …  
.McL. : 11/5/2021 4:22 pm : link
In comment 15444550 christian said:
Quote:
This is starting to feel like the Giants hired the world’s worst PR agency, and the big idea was have these two guys post on BBI that being mean to the team isn’t nice.

For all we know, Ryan, DannyDimes and Giants73 might be the same person at the same bad PR company!
I took  
crick n NC : 11/5/2021 4:30 pm : link
A wait and see approach with Gettleman and I'm fine with it. There really is nothing left to dispute. The Giants certainly are not better than before he arrived and could be reasonably argued they are worse. Judge is the real kick in the balls if he keeps trending south, but I'll try to remain as patient as I can.
RE: RE: …  
NoGainDayne : 11/5/2021 4:30 pm : link
In comment 15444562 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 15444550 christian said:


Quote:


This is starting to feel like the Giants hired the world’s worst PR agency, and the big idea was have these two guys post on BBI that being mean to the team isn’t nice.


For all we know, Ryan, DannyDimes and Giants73 might be the same person at the same bad PR company!


Don't forget what a dream it is to eat a meal with Daniel Jones!

It's really important that we know what good people are that are underachieving at their jobs and with the money we as fans give them. I always like to know the people that are spitting in my face are good people deep down.
RE: RE: Wow, I am stunned that there are still DG fanboys here  
.McL. : 11/5/2021 4:31 pm : link
In comment 15444561 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15444548 .McL. said:


Quote:


I can see that the vast majority of the "wait and see people have turned against Gettleman.

But there are some who still actually like him... That is mind blowing to me.

Somebody recently posted an article about toxic positivity. The basic premise is that some people always stay positive no matter what because they don't want to handle and face difficult and painful situations straight on in order to fix them. Essentially it is a coping mechanism that allows them to justify doing nothing to fix the bad things in life.

At this point, that is the only reasonable explanation I can figure for anybody to still be supportive of DG. They fear the rebuild process more than sucky status quo.



If there are people still unconvinced that Gettleman is a problem it may go to an inability to make decisions and make distinctions.

There is also an opportunity cost for maintaining a broken status quo. Time is our most precious resource, not Dave Gettleman. The more time we spend floundering with DG the longer we spend not turning things around, not pursuing more productive avenues, while the league continues to pass you by. Change is good. Embrace change.

More than embrace the change.

The Giants need to do the hard work of truly fixing wwhat ails them.

They need to stop looking quick fixes, it's fools gold. We need to suck it up (pun intended), take the hits, and start constructing the team from ground up the right way. That includes everything from players, coaches, scouting, FO management, hell even the trainers and medical staff are suspect at this point.

It is going to be difficult, hard work. This team is still almost like an expansion team. Cut out all the rot, even if you cut out too much, it is better than too little. Too little and the rot spreads to the next generation.
RE: I took  
.McL. : 11/5/2021 4:38 pm : link
In comment 15444567 crick n NC said:
Quote:
A wait and see approach with Gettleman and I'm fine with it. There really is nothing left to dispute. The Giants certainly are not better than before he arrived and could be reasonably argued they are worse. Judge is the real kick in the balls if he keeps trending south, but I'll try to remain as patient as I can.

I am not blaming people for taking the "wait and see" approach.
With regards to Judge, I am not happy right now either, but I am still waiting and seeing at least for the rest of this year. Great HC have notoriously failed in their first stint. (see Bill Belichick, Pete Carol, even Parcells his first season here). People need to grow into being great HCs...
There is no room for GMs to grow into that job. Either you are capable of making good decisions, or you are not. For me, there is far less ambiguity in the GMs role vs. the HC.
RE: RE: I took  
crick n NC : 11/5/2021 4:42 pm : link
In comment 15444573 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 15444567 crick n NC said:


Quote:


A wait and see approach with Gettleman and I'm fine with it. There really is nothing left to dispute. The Giants certainly are not better than before he arrived and could be reasonably argued they are worse. Judge is the real kick in the balls if he keeps trending south, but I'll try to remain as patient as I can.


I am not blaming people for taking the "wait and see" approach.
With regards to Judge, I am not happy right now either, but I am still waiting and seeing at least for the rest of this year. Great HC have notoriously failed in their first stint. (see Bill Belichick, Pete Carol, even Parcells his first season here). People need to grow into being great HCs...
There is no room for GMs to grow into that job. Either you are capable of making good decisions, or you are not. For me, there is far less ambiguity in the GMs role vs. the HC.


You're right, coaches do need to grow into their position, especially young inexperienced coaches like Judge. I admit that I will be more than a little confused if the Giants cut bait so soon with Judge, they knew to an extent what they were hiring, they knew they would need to give him perhaps a longer leash than Mac or Shurmur. I also don't expect them to fire him after this season based on a poor record.
RE: RE: RE: I took  
.McL. : 11/5/2021 4:52 pm : link
In comment 15444576 crick n NC said:
Quote:
In comment 15444573 .McL. said:


Quote:


In comment 15444567 crick n NC said:


Quote:


A wait and see approach with Gettleman and I'm fine with it. There really is nothing left to dispute. The Giants certainly are not better than before he arrived and could be reasonably argued they are worse. Judge is the real kick in the balls if he keeps trending south, but I'll try to remain as patient as I can.


I am not blaming people for taking the "wait and see" approach.
With regards to Judge, I am not happy right now either, but I am still waiting and seeing at least for the rest of this year. Great HC have notoriously failed in their first stint. (see Bill Belichick, Pete Carol, even Parcells his first season here). People need to grow into being great HCs...
There is no room for GMs to grow into that job. Either you are capable of making good decisions, or you are not. For me, there is far less ambiguity in the GMs role vs. the HC.



You're right, coaches do need to grow into their position, especially young inexperienced coaches like Judge. I admit that I will be more than a little confused if the Giants cut bait so soon with Judge, they knew to an extent what they were hiring, they knew they would need to give him perhaps a longer leash than Mac or Shurmur. I also don't expect them to fire him after this season based on a poor record.

Honestly, neither do I.
There is an outside chance that they hire a new GM that decides to do a complete reboot. Including bringing in his desired HC. That is about the only scenario I see as possible. But I doubt it would happen. 1% chance maybe.
RE: RE: Let's use the scientific method.  
bwitz : 11/5/2021 4:52 pm : link
In comment 15444149 DannyDimes said:
Quote:
In comment 15444082 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


17-39

Outscored 1146-1420

Dave Gettleman sucks.

Facts.



Facts, DG didn't play a single down...


Facts, the players he’s brought onto this team have; they suck. And so do you.
With regards to GMs  
.McL. : 11/5/2021 4:53 pm : link
Either the person has good judgement or not. There is no fix for bad judgement.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I took  
crick n NC : 11/5/2021 4:55 pm : link
In comment 15444584 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 15444576 crick n NC said:


Quote:


In comment 15444573 .McL. said:


Quote:


In comment 15444567 crick n NC said:


Quote:


A wait and see approach with Gettleman and I'm fine with it. There really is nothing left to dispute. The Giants certainly are not better than before he arrived and could be reasonably argued they are worse. Judge is the real kick in the balls if he keeps trending south, but I'll try to remain as patient as I can.


I am not blaming people for taking the "wait and see" approach.
With regards to Judge, I am not happy right now either, but I am still waiting and seeing at least for the rest of this year. Great HC have notoriously failed in their first stint. (see Bill Belichick, Pete Carol, even Parcells his first season here). People need to grow into being great HCs...
There is no room for GMs to grow into that job. Either you are capable of making good decisions, or you are not. For me, there is far less ambiguity in the GMs role vs. the HC.



You're right, coaches do need to grow into their position, especially young inexperienced coaches like Judge. I admit that I will be more than a little confused if the Giants cut bait so soon with Judge, they knew to an extent what they were hiring, they knew they would need to give him perhaps a longer leash than Mac or Shurmur. I also don't expect them to fire him after this season based on a poor record.


Honestly, neither do I.
There is an outside chance that they hire a new GM that decides to do a complete reboot. Including bringing in his desired HC. That is about the only scenario I see as possible. But I doubt it would happen. 1% chance maybe.


👍
RE: RE: RE: Wow, I am stunned that there are still DG fanboys here  
Producer : 11/5/2021 4:58 pm : link
In comment 15444569 .McL. said:
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I can see that the vast majority of the "wait and see people have turned against Gettleman.

But there are some who still actually like him... That is mind blowing to me.

Somebody recently posted an article about toxic positivity. The basic premise is that some people always stay positive no matter what because they don't want to handle and face difficult and painful situations straight on in order to fix them. Essentially it is a coping mechanism that allows them to justify doing nothing to fix the bad things in life.

At this point, that is the only reasonable explanation I can figure for anybody to still be supportive of DG. They fear the rebuild process more than sucky status quo.



If there are people still unconvinced that Gettleman is a problem it may go to an inability to make decisions and make distinctions.

There is also an opportunity cost for maintaining a broken status quo. Time is our most precious resource, not Dave Gettleman. The more time we spend floundering with DG the longer we spend not turning things around, not pursuing more productive avenues, while the league continues to pass you by. Change is good. Embrace change.


More than embrace the change.

The Giants need to do the hard work of truly fixing wwhat ails them.

They need to stop looking quick fixes, it's fools gold. We need to suck it up (pun intended), take the hits, and start constructing the team from ground up the right way. That includes everything from players, coaches, scouting, FO management, hell even the trainers and medical staff are suspect at this point.

It is going to be difficult, hard work. This team is still almost like an expansion team. Cut out all the rot, even if you cut out too much, it is better than too little. Too little and the rot spreads to the next generation.


I agree. But there also needs to be a worldview shift, and I think that's even harder than the *roll up your sleeves and get cracking* type of hard work. It means questioning your assumptions, questioning how you have always done things, opening up to new ways of doing business.

The Giants have always been a conservative organization but if you want to be on the bleeding edge of the game I think we have to throw that old playbook out. The NFL isn't just a tough game played by tough individuals anymore. It is more than ever a numbers game, and more than ever a finesse game. Not to say we can't be tough, but three yards and a cloud of dust and field position football is almost over as a general strategy to win a lot of games in a season, and to sustain winning across seasons.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Wow, I am stunned that there are still DG fanboys here  
.McL. : 11/5/2021 5:08 pm : link
In comment 15444596 Producer said:
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In comment 15444569 .McL. said:


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In comment 15444561 Producer said:


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In comment 15444548 .McL. said:


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I can see that the vast majority of the "wait and see people have turned against Gettleman.

But there are some who still actually like him... That is mind blowing to me.

Somebody recently posted an article about toxic positivity. The basic premise is that some people always stay positive no matter what because they don't want to handle and face difficult and painful situations straight on in order to fix them. Essentially it is a coping mechanism that allows them to justify doing nothing to fix the bad things in life.

At this point, that is the only reasonable explanation I can figure for anybody to still be supportive of DG. They fear the rebuild process more than sucky status quo.



If there are people still unconvinced that Gettleman is a problem it may go to an inability to make decisions and make distinctions.

There is also an opportunity cost for maintaining a broken status quo. Time is our most precious resource, not Dave Gettleman. The more time we spend floundering with DG the longer we spend not turning things around, not pursuing more productive avenues, while the league continues to pass you by. Change is good. Embrace change.


More than embrace the change.

The Giants need to do the hard work of truly fixing wwhat ails them.

They need to stop looking quick fixes, it's fools gold. We need to suck it up (pun intended), take the hits, and start constructing the team from ground up the right way. That includes everything from players, coaches, scouting, FO management, hell even the trainers and medical staff are suspect at this point.

It is going to be difficult, hard work. This team is still almost like an expansion team. Cut out all the rot, even if you cut out too much, it is better than too little. Too little and the rot spreads to the next generation.



I agree. But there also needs to be a worldview shift, and I think that's even harder than the *roll up your sleeves and get cracking* type of hard work. It means questioning your assumptions, questioning how you have always done things, opening up to new ways of doing business.

The Giants have always been a conservative organization but if you want to be on the bleeding edge of the game I think we have to throw that old playbook out. The NFL isn't just a tough game played by tough individuals anymore. It is more than ever a numbers game, and more than ever a finesse game. Not to say we can't be tough, but three yards and a cloud of dust and field position football is almost over as a general strategy to win a lot of games in a season, and to sustain winning across seasons.

Agreed. I view that as "starting from the ground up". When you start from the ground up, you have no preconceived assumptions. You start fresh. Create a new roadmap, based on the modern game and modern theories including modern technology.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Wow, I am stunned that there are still DG fanboys here  
Producer : 11/5/2021 5:16 pm : link
In comment 15444605 .McL. said:
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Agreed. I view that as "starting from the ground up". When you start from the ground up, you have no preconceived assumptions. You start fresh. Create a new roadmap, based on the modern game and modern theories including modern technology.


I'm withya.
The front office  
darren in pdx : 11/5/2021 5:31 pm : link
needs to be revamped 100%. They have done a shit job. 4 years and there's barely any building blocks, and they won't be here anymore by time the team is ready to compete again, assuming that starting next year things get turned around.

But if you thought Gettleman was bad, just wait until the next buffoon that they decide to hire. It can get worse.
15-39 record and 30% winning percentage coming up on 4 years now  
Jimmy Googs : 11/5/2021 5:40 pm : link
and all along playing within one of the worst divisions in the NFL over this same period.

You got to come up with a lot of excuses for Dave Gettleman to put up a thread like this.

And a lot nerve too..

Excuse me...  
Jimmy Googs : 11/5/2021 5:42 pm : link
17-39


Anybody arguing in favor of DG at this point  
Mike from SI : 11/5/2021 6:13 pm : link
is either a troll or has an agenda. Don't bother giving it any attention.
RE: I missed the argument on the GM  
FStubbs : 11/5/2021 7:40 pm : link
In comment 15444495 Giants73 said:
Quote:
Who has never had a bad signing and all their draft picks are in the pro bowl. Is there some comparisons of great GMs in the league right now.


Wish I could find that graph the other day that shows where teams are with wins vs cap space and you can see that based on that metric the Giants, and thus Mara/Gettleman, are literally worst in the league.
RE: The front office  
FStubbs : 11/5/2021 7:41 pm : link
In comment 15444631 darren in pdx said:
Quote:
needs to be revamped 100%. They have done a shit job. 4 years and there's barely any building blocks, and they won't be here anymore by time the team is ready to compete again, assuming that starting next year things get turned around.

But if you thought Gettleman was bad, just wait until the next buffoon that they decide to hire. It can get worse.


The only defense I can come up with for Gettleman is basically how much of his bad decisions might actually be Chris Mara.
RE: RE: I missed the argument on the GM  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/5/2021 7:56 pm : link
In comment 15444722 FStubbs said:
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In comment 15444495 Giants73 said:


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Who has never had a bad signing and all their draft picks are in the pro bowl. Is there some comparisons of great GMs in the league right now.



Wish I could find that graph the other day that shows where teams are with wins vs cap space and you can see that based on that metric the Giants, and thus Mara/Gettleman, are literally worst in the league.


RE: RE: RE: I missed the argument on the GM  
FStubbs : 11/5/2021 8:59 pm : link
In comment 15444738 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 15444722 FStubbs said:


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In comment 15444495 Giants73 said:


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Who has never had a bad signing and all their draft picks are in the pro bowl. Is there some comparisons of great GMs in the league right now.



Wish I could find that graph the other day that shows where teams are with wins vs cap space and you can see that based on that metric the Giants, and thus Mara/Gettleman, are literally worst in the league.





Thank you
RE: RE: RE: RE: Wow, I am stunned that there are still DG fanboys here  
giantstock : 11/5/2021 10:09 pm : link
In comment 15444596 Producer said:
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In comment 15444569 .McL. said:


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In comment 15444561 Producer said:


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In comment 15444548 .McL. said:


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I can see that the vast majority of the "wait and see people have turned against Gettleman.

But there are some who still actually like him... That is mind blowing to me.

Somebody recently posted an article about toxic positivity. The basic premise is that some people always stay positive no matter what because they don't want to handle and face difficult and painful situations straight on in order to fix them. Essentially it is a coping mechanism that allows them to justify doing nothing to fix the bad things in life.

At this point, that is the only reasonable explanation I can figure for anybody to still be supportive of DG. They fear the rebuild process more than sucky status quo.



If there are people still unconvinced that Gettleman is a problem it may go to an inability to make decisions and make distinctions.

There is also an opportunity cost for maintaining a broken status quo. Time is our most precious resource, not Dave Gettleman. The more time we spend floundering with DG the longer we spend not turning things around, not pursuing more productive avenues, while the league continues to pass you by. Change is good. Embrace change.


More than embrace the change.

The Giants need to do the hard work of truly fixing wwhat ails them.

They need to stop looking quick fixes, it's fools gold. We need to suck it up (pun intended), take the hits, and start constructing the team from ground up the right way. That includes everything from players, coaches, scouting, FO management, hell even the trainers and medical staff are suspect at this point.

It is going to be difficult, hard work. This team is still almost like an expansion team. Cut out all the rot, even if you cut out too much, it is better than too little. Too little and the rot spreads to the next generation.





The NFL isn't just a tough game played by tough individuals anymore. It is more than ever a numbers game, and more than ever a finesse game. Not to say we can't be tough, but three yards and a cloud of dust and field position football is almost over as a general strategy to win a lot of games in a season, and to sustain winning across seasons.


It's a tough game too. Not 3 yards and a cloud of dust but still a tough game too.
Some of DG's deals like Ogletree were clunkers.  
OntheRoad : 11/5/2021 10:10 pm : link

However, the roster has added a ton of talent. Thomas, Peart, and Lemieux are better than Flowers, Pugh, and Richburg. This offseason, he added three receiving threats, a pass rusher in Round 2, and another off waivers. We are set up well for the next draft.

When I look back on the Jerry Reese era drafts, I become very nervous about just picking a new GM out of a hat.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Wow, I am stunned that there are still DG fanboys here  
Producer : 11/5/2021 10:50 pm : link
In comment 15444965 giantstock said:
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In comment 15444596 Producer said:


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In comment 15444569 .McL. said:


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The NFL isn't just a tough game played by tough individuals anymore. It is more than ever a numbers game, and more than ever a finesse game. Not to say we can't be tough, but three yards and a cloud of dust and field position football is almost over as a general strategy to win a lot of games in a season, and to sustain winning across seasons.



It's a tough game too. Not 3 yards and a cloud of dust but still a tough game too.


it is, but I think building only that way will not lead to sustained success. The smart teams are embracing the finesse part of the game.
RE: Some of DG's deals like Ogletree were clunkers.  
NoGainDayne : 11/5/2021 11:08 pm : link
In comment 15444969 OntheRoad said:
Quote:

However, the roster has added a ton of talent. Thomas, Peart, and Lemieux are better than Flowers, Pugh, and Richburg. This offseason, he added three receiving threats, a pass rusher in Round 2, and another off waivers. We are set up well for the next draft.

When I look back on the Jerry Reese era drafts, I become very nervous about just picking a new GM out of a hat.


You can't be serious with this right? DG has proven to be one of the worst GMs, show me the hat. I will take the hat. Especially if it is just some random GM from somewhere else in the league and not someone Mara chooses. I don't know how Jerry Reese became the super villain and some of you want to lessen the shittiness of what DG has given us but jesus you can't let people that perform like this keep their jobs. That's part of the problem we are facing, how can you ask your players to be leaders? To strive to achieve greatness? When the people that are leading them are rewarded in a system where mediocrity would be a high achievement.
 
christian : 11/5/2021 11:18 pm : link
Gettleman has collected some starting caliber players. With the cap and draft resources at his disposal it’s impossible to not.

Five seasons on and there are several Giants from the 2017 Giants still starting in the NFL.

Success isn’t filling up half or so of a few units with decent players.
RE: RE: Some of DG's deals like Ogletree were clunkers.  
.McL. : 11/5/2021 11:18 pm : link
In comment 15445003 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
In comment 15444969 OntheRoad said:


Quote:



However, the roster has added a ton of talent. Thomas, Peart, and Lemieux are better than Flowers, Pugh, and Richburg. This offseason, he added three receiving threats, a pass rusher in Round 2, and another off waivers. We are set up well for the next draft.

When I look back on the Jerry Reese era drafts, I become very nervous about just picking a new GM out of a hat.



You can't be serious with this right? DG has proven to be one of the worst GMs, show me the hat. I will take the hat. Especially if it is just some random GM from somewhere else in the league and not someone Mara chooses. I don't know how Jerry Reese became the super villain and some of you want to lessen the shittiness of what DG has given us but jesus you can't let people that perform like this keep their jobs. That's part of the problem we are facing, how can you ask your players to be leaders? To strive to achieve greatness? When the people that are leading them are rewarded in a system where mediocrity would be a high achievement.


OTR is what I wrote about above. Toxic Positivity. Not willing to do the hard, scary stuff to get better.

And, yes, this mess CAN get worse. While DG has been awful, there is still room below him... At this point though. Who cares. If it gets worse, then whoever makes it worse won't last long either. Pick enough names out of the hat, and eventually you will get lucky and find a good one. It may take a while, but it is better than settling for the status quo.
 
christian : 11/5/2021 11:27 pm : link
Gettleman certainly can make this worse.

There are a dozen or so huge decisions someone will make this offseason.
RE: Some of DG's deals like Ogletree were clunkers.  
Jimmy Googs : 11/6/2021 8:09 am : link
In comment 15444969 OntheRoad said:
Quote:

However, the roster has added a ton of talent. Thomas, Peart, and Lemieux are better than Flowers, Pugh, and Richburg. This offseason, he added three receiving threats, a pass rusher in Round 2, and another off waivers. We are set up well for the next draft.

When I look back on the Jerry Reese era drafts, I become very nervous about just picking a new GM out of a hat.


The roster doesn't have anywhere close to a ton of talent.

And as for picking out of a hat, I would go with this guy over Getts...




RE: RE: Some of DG's deals like Ogletree were clunkers.  
FStubbs : 11/6/2021 11:10 am : link
In comment 15445003 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
In comment 15444969 OntheRoad said:


Quote:



However, the roster has added a ton of talent. Thomas, Peart, and Lemieux are better than Flowers, Pugh, and Richburg. This offseason, he added three receiving threats, a pass rusher in Round 2, and another off waivers. We are set up well for the next draft.

When I look back on the Jerry Reese era drafts, I become very nervous about just picking a new GM out of a hat.



You can't be serious with this right? DG has proven to be one of the worst GMs, show me the hat. I will take the hat. Especially if it is just some random GM from somewhere else in the league and not someone Mara chooses. I don't know how Jerry Reese became the super villain and some of you want to lessen the shittiness of what DG has given us but jesus you can't let people that perform like this keep their jobs. That's part of the problem we are facing, how can you ask your players to be leaders? To strive to achieve greatness? When the people that are leading them are rewarded in a system where mediocrity would be a high achievement.


If it weren't for Reese, we would've won 4-5 Superbowls with Eli. That's what people would have you believe.

I believe the opposite. DG is worse than Reese and the team is worse now than it was when Reese left the job.

And no, the offensive line is still a mess - if not worse now than it was the day Reese was sacked. Ignoring Lemieux who is an unknown, Bobby Hart and John Jerry actually managed to be much better than Hernandez and Solder, who represent more draft capital and money respectively.

There's no defending Gettleman, not even compared to Reese.
This FMICs burner  
Ned In Atlanta : 11/6/2021 11:12 am : link
???
Giant issues run deeper than Gettleman  
ghost718 : 11/6/2021 11:36 am : link
I think you're more likely to get someone who's incompetent,than someone who can do the job.

When it comes to the draft,you basically have a few teams who do it a little better than most.Than you have a large number who are about average.Than you have another small group who stink.Jerry was in this group.

Based on the hires this ownership has made,I wouldn't bet on the next guy being average.Which is what I think Gettleman is.
Gettleman  
English Alaister : 11/6/2021 12:15 pm : link
The main problem with DG is he was brought in to fix the lines and he has failed. He splurged on Omameh and Solder and missed. He spent serious cash this year but not on OL. Pass rush is an abomination.

We are left in the same situation where it is hard to evaluate the offensive players because of the sieve in front of them.

Draft picks like Toney when we desperately needed line help are just not sensible.
RE: Gettleman  
Angel Eyes : 11/6/2021 12:22 pm : link
In comment 15445209 English Alaister said:
Quote:
The main problem with DG is he was brought in to fix the lines and he has failed. He splurged on Omameh and Solder and missed. He spent serious cash this year but not on OL. Pass rush is an abomination.

We are left in the same situation where it is hard to evaluate the offensive players because of the sieve in front of them.

Draft picks like Toney when we desperately needed line help are just not sensible.

This sums up what I don't like about Gettleman, that he's broken his promises to fix both lines and we still can't evaluate Jones (of course people would say that Jones should be able to pull everyone's fat out of the fire, including the defense (not quite sure how that one works given quarterbacks don't play on the defense). If I was GM, I'd focus on rebuilding both lines, particularly at guard and tackle, as well as the tight end group (if we stay with Garrett as offensive coordinator this is doubly important).
RE: RE: Gettleman  
Angel Eyes : 11/6/2021 12:23 pm : link
In comment 15445216 Angel Eyes said:
Quote:
In comment 15445209 English Alaister said:


Quote:


The main problem with DG is he was brought in to fix the lines and he has failed. He splurged on Omameh and Solder and missed. He spent serious cash this year but not on OL. Pass rush is an abomination.

We are left in the same situation where it is hard to evaluate the offensive players because of the sieve in front of them.

Draft picks like Toney when we desperately needed line help are just not sensible.


This sums up what I don't like about Gettleman, that he's broken his promises to fix both lines and we still can't evaluate Jones (of course people would say that Jones should be able to pull everyone's fat out of the fire, including the defense (not quite sure how that one works given quarterbacks don't play on the defense). If I was GM, I'd focus on rebuilding both lines, particularly at guard (offensive line) and edge (defensive line), as well as the tight end group (if we stay with Garrett as offensive coordinator this is doubly important).
RE: Giant issues run deeper than Gettleman  
.McL. : 11/6/2021 5:31 pm : link
In comment 15445187 ghost718 said:
Quote:
I think you're more likely to get someone who's incompetent,than someone who can do the job.

When it comes to the draft,you basically have a few teams who do it a little better than most.Than you have a large number who are about average.Than you have another small group who stink.Jerry was in this group.

Based on the hires this ownership has made,I wouldn't bet on the next guy being average.Which is what I think Gettleman is.

No doubt the Giants issues run deeper that Gettleman. But Gettleman is nowhere near average as a GM.
Gettleman is not the worst GM, he's simply one of the worst  
GeofromNJ : 11/6/2021 5:52 pm : link
In 2018 he drafted Barkley and Hernandez when he could have drafted Josh Allen and Nick Chubb, the offensive line is incapable of opening running lanes or protecting DJ even when Andrew Thomas is healthy, he traded JPP, failed to retain Tomlinson, etc. ad nauseam.
RE: RE: Giant issues run deeper than Gettleman  
ghost718 : 11/6/2021 7:14 pm : link
In comment 15445459 .McL. said:
Quote:


No doubt the Giants issues run deeper that Gettleman. But Gettleman is nowhere near average as a GM.


I think Gettleman's run in Carolina is enough evidence he can do the job.But it's never properly examined to those who've already made up their minds.

So he comes back to New York and gets thrown into this mess.A situation where the owner pulls the rug out after 2 years,and brings in a tough talking special teams coach from Philly with an occasional southern accent.

ghost that doesn't account for the most important thing  
NoGainDayne : 11/6/2021 7:31 pm : link
the biggest thing working against the Giants is their antiquated approach.

I fully believe DG had things work for him in Carolina that do not work in the NFL today. It's not that I haven't considered his success, it's quite the opposite I think. I think saying things like this kind of ignore what the problems of the team are today.
RE: RE: RE: Giant issues run deeper than Gettleman  
BlueVinnie : 11/6/2021 7:38 pm : link
In comment 15445543 ghost718 said:
Quote:


I think Gettleman's run in Carolina is enough evidence he can do the job.But it's never properly examined to those who've already made up their minds.


Gettleman didn't build that Panthers SB team into a winner. Several key pieces including some sure fire hall of famers were on the team before Gettleman was hired by Carolina. Among those players that were there prior to Gettleman;
Cam Newton
Luke Kuechly
Ryan Khalil
Greg Olsen
Thomas Davis
Jonathan Stewart

There were a few other less impactful starters that were already there such as Ted Ginn.

That team wasn't built by Gettleman. However he certainly likes to paint it as though he was key in getting them to the Super Bowl.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 11/6/2021 7:43 pm : link
Again, I cannot comprehend how anyone can defend DG. He's been an abject disaster. I could pull a drunk off the street & he probably could do just as well as Gettleman.
RE: RE: RE: Giant issues run deeper than Gettleman  
christian : 11/6/2021 8:11 pm : link
In comment 15445543 ghost718 said:
Quote:
I think Gettleman's run in Carolina is enough evidence he can do the job.But it's never properly examined to those who've already made up their minds.


Dave Gettleman having been good at a job doesn’t mean he’s currently good at this one.

He’s on coach two, quarterback two, four years of top draft picks — and yet he’s never enjoyed a single day with a winning record as GM.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Giant issues run deeper than Gettleman  
ghost718 : 11/6/2021 9:33 pm : link
In comment 15445583 christian said:
Quote:
Dave Gettleman having been good at a job doesn’t mean he’s currently good at this one.

He’s on coach two, quarterback two, four years of top draft picks — and yet he’s never enjoyed a single day with a winning record as GM.


Not just a job,it's the same job.Same job with different people.

And out of these people,Gettleman probably has the best resume,but he's viewed as the most incompetent.
I'm not trying to be ageist here but at a certain point  
NoGainDayne : 11/6/2021 11:34 pm : link
don't your skills decline somewhat with age? Especially if you are refusing to evolve with a fast moving industry.

I forgot who started calling him resume but that is probably my favorite BBI nickname ever. I think it was bw maybe.

Anyway the above is an entirely different debate. Let's put that aside, don't you still have to perform at your current job over the course of over 3 years? What is the argument for his competence?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Giant issues run deeper than Gettleman  
Jimmy Googs : 11/7/2021 7:44 am : link
In comment 15445621 ghost718 said:
Quote:
In comment 15445583 christian said:


Quote:


Dave Gettleman having been good at a job doesn’t mean he’s currently good at this one.

He’s on coach two, quarterback two, four years of top draft picks — and yet he’s never enjoyed a single day with a winning record as GM.



Not just a job,it's the same job.Same job with different people.

And out of these people,Gettleman probably has the best resume,but he's viewed as the most incompetent.


Look, I think when incompetent is thrown around for DG it clearly has a good bit of fan emotion in it. He has the background, experience and seemingly the intelligence to perform the GM job I presume. It's just that he isn't very good at it...and that is being kind.

Maybe he would be decent being GM for a relatively stable club/team with a good core of players and reliable QB (not a high ceiling but whatever). But he certainly has no business in building or rebuilding a struggling team from the ground up. And that is indisputable actually and it is based on his entire body of work here - from poor player evaluation skills to the positions he focused his efforts on and the questionable timing/order in which he did it all. All pretty below-standard. Hell, he isn't even good at assessing when a bad team is bad, missing it all pretty clearly at the beginning of his reign here.

And I also think he knew he was a bit outmatched/outdated in today's NFL as a GM, or at least with the NYG franchise. And that is why the arrogance came out so often in pressers, defending his approaches and throwing his "resume" out constantly and that he doesn't do this just as a hobby.

Nevertheless, it's almost over...
On what basis is he average?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/7/2021 8:42 am : link
Even now we're still trying to make excuses and soften the reality of it? More digs at previous GMs and more qualifiers like he walked into a bad situation.

 
christian : 11/7/2021 8:55 am : link
In comment 15445621 ghost718 said:
Quote:
Not just a job,it's the same job.Same job with different people.

And out of these people,Gettleman probably has the best resume,but he's viewed as the most incompetent.


This is the fallacy of past success.

Sure Gettleman has succeeded in another time, with different people, in a different time in the league.

Now he’s 70, in an extremely different situation. No one is good forever.

Two things Dave Gettleman has never done — hired a head coach with a winning record in a season, drafted a quarterback with a winning record in a season.

Gettleman had a nice run in a Carolina putting some of the final pieces in place, but he was never the principal architect, which the Giants desperately need.
TTH - agree, it is odd to see these pretty weak arguments for DG  
Jimmy Googs : 11/7/2021 9:03 am : link
at this stage.

christian - spot on with the chief architect comment...
I think Gettleman is incompetent but at the  
cosmicj : 11/7/2021 9:10 am : link
Same time think he likely is being dragged down further by a dysfunctional organization. The Giants are a Vortex of Suck.
RE: …  
ghost718 : 11/7/2021 9:31 am : link
In comment 15445775 christian said:
Quote:
This is the fallacy of past success.

Sure Gettleman has succeeded in another time, with different people, in a different time in the league.

Now he’s 70, in an extremely different situation. No one is good forever.

Two things Dave Gettleman has never done — hired a head coach with a winning record in a season, drafted a quarterback with a winning record in a season.

Gettleman had a nice run in a Carolina putting some of the final pieces in place, but he was never the principal architect, which the Giants desperately need.


It's a different situation,but it could be related to the work environment,and not necessarily his age.

I've seen old guys get tossed to the side in favor of younger guys before.And it hasn't turned out very well.Heck,you've seen it with the recent coaching hires for the Giants.Age doesn't seem to matter when the person at the top is suspect.
 
christian : 11/7/2021 10:01 am : link
There’s no shame in evaluating if at 70 and having been sick, Gettleman has lost some on his fastball.

Ultimately the Giants need an GM who can effectively manage and up and down. That’s a big part of the gig.

Over the last four years the Giants have swapped out all the primary variable twice, except GM. And the results have been identical.

It’s time to swap out the common variable in these four terrible years.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Giant issues run deeper than Gettleman  
FStubbs : 11/7/2021 10:36 am : link
In comment 15445558 BlueVinnie said:
Quote:
In comment 15445543 ghost718 said:


Quote:




I think Gettleman's run in Carolina is enough evidence he can do the job.But it's never properly examined to those who've already made up their minds.




Gettleman didn't build that Panthers SB team into a winner. Several key pieces including some sure fire hall of famers were on the team before Gettleman was hired by Carolina. Among those players that were there prior to Gettleman;
Cam Newton
Luke Kuechly
Ryan Khalil
Greg Olsen
Thomas Davis
Jonathan Stewart

There were a few other less impactful starters that were already there such as Ted Ginn.

That team wasn't built by Gettleman. However he certainly likes to paint it as though he was key in getting them to the Super Bowl.


They didn't put the glue together to become a Superbowl team until Gettleman got there. He gets the credit.

He also gets the credit for drafting McCaffrey with a top 10 pick - which is looking like as much a mistake as his selection of Barkley in New York a year later.

Now - perhaps he had better scouts (ie not Chris Mara) in Carolina.
I don't know or care what kind of metrics they are using  
Matt M. : 11/7/2021 10:54 am : link
He has had 3 picks in the top ten and 6 overall 1st round picks in 4 drafts. He has completely turned over the roster in this period and the team is still one of the bottom 5 in the league. Overall, very little of his drafts have panned out, so again, not sure of these metrics. But, the bottom line is the W-L record, which is embarrassingly bad.
I'm not a DG hater,  
Chocco : 11/7/2021 11:20 am : link
But they were in a position to build on a good second half of last season and save his job. He blew it. He chose to not improve on a bad offensive line and hope the young players would improve and come together; It did not happen. It was the same mistake that Reese made. Sure there have been injuries, but that only highlights the need to have a deep OL.
RE: I'm not a DG hater,  
Matt M. : 11/7/2021 12:17 pm : link
In comment 15445875 Chocco said:
Quote:
But they were in a position to build on a good second half of last season and save his job. He blew it. He chose to not improve on a bad offensive line and hope the young players would improve and come together; It did not happen. It was the same mistake that Reese made. Sure there have been injuries, but that only highlights the need to have a deep OL.
Mistake #is calling the second half of last season good. They ended the season 1-3, an unmitigated disaster. Giants fans, myself included, allowed 1 game in Seattle cloud our judgement into thinking this team turned some kind of corner. They did not. They had 1 good game and then went right back to shutting the bed, repeatedly. They have opened this season this season same. We are a terrible team and from year to year we have improved nothing under Gettleman.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Giant issues run deeper than Gettleman  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/7/2021 1:37 pm : link
In comment 15445848 FStubbs said:
Quote:
In comment 15445558 BlueVinnie said:


Quote:


In comment 15445543 ghost718 said:


Quote:




I think Gettleman's run in Carolina is enough evidence he can do the job.But it's never properly examined to those who've already made up their minds.




Gettleman didn't build that Panthers SB team into a winner. Several key pieces including some sure fire hall of famers were on the team before Gettleman was hired by Carolina. Among those players that were there prior to Gettleman;
Cam Newton
Luke Kuechly
Ryan Khalil
Greg Olsen
Thomas Davis
Jonathan Stewart

There were a few other less impactful starters that were already there such as Ted Ginn.

That team wasn't built by Gettleman. However he certainly likes to paint it as though he was key in getting them to the Super Bowl.



They didn't put the glue together to become a Superbowl team until Gettleman got there. He gets the credit.

He also gets the credit for drafting McCaffrey with a top 10 pick - which is looking like as much a mistake as his selection of Barkley in New York a year later.

Now - perhaps he had better scouts (ie not Chris Mara) in Carolina.

So Reese gets the credit for the 2007 SB team and not Accorsi, right?
RE: RE: I'm not a DG hater,  
Chocco : 11/7/2021 2:38 pm : link
In comment 15445927 Matt M. said:
Quote:

Mistake #is calling the second half of last season good. They ended the season 1-3, an unmitigated disaster. Giants fans, myself included, allowed 1 game in Seattle cloud our judgement into thinking this team turned some kind of corner. They did not. They had 1 good game and then went right back to shutting the bed, repeatedly. They have opened this season this season same. We are a terrible team and from year to year we have improved nothing under Gettleman.

I can't argue with you on that. Maybe good was too strong a word, but I do feel there was some optimism that the team was heading in the right direction. This is obviously no longer true
RE: ajr  
santacruzom : 11/8/2021 12:01 pm : link
In comment 15444096 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
oh yeah? You're making this too easy my man. How did the Chiefs drafts go in 2018 and 2019?


That's kind of like saying it's not a big deal if a guy with 20k in the bank loses 15k in Vegas because Elon Musk has lost that amount in one hand.
RE: ..  
santacruzom : 11/8/2021 12:11 pm : link
In comment 15444119 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
another example - Packers 2018 and 2019 drafts - those pretty much sucked.


It's almost as if every draft class consists of far more players who won't meet their promise than those who do, and those poor prospects still get drafted. I think you've cracked a code!

How this exonerates Gettleman, however, is anyone's guess.
RE: RE: ..  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/8/2021 12:15 pm : link
In comment 15448428 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 15444119 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


another example - Packers 2018 and 2019 drafts - those pretty much sucked.



It's almost as if every draft class consists of far more players who won't meet their promise than those who do, and those poor prospects still get drafted. I think you've cracked a code!

How this exonerates Gettleman, however, is anyone's guess.

Somehow the teams that Ryan has chosen tend to be among the best in the league. If sucking at the draft is the recipe for success, then there's still something else that Gettleman is fucking up, because we've sucked for his entire tenure.

Ryan's strategy continues to be "fight the battle, ignore the war"
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