Of the season.
Davis Mills threw for 87 in a 40-0 rout by the Bills.. Justin Fields threw for 68 in a 26-6 defeat at the hands of the Browns. Complete games only.
You know that horrific Carolina QB performance a couple of weeks ago that gave us our 2nd win? The Panthers QBs jointly threw for more yardage than Jones did yesterday.
Is that really what is was like back then. I was too young for that time but, my you tube watching of old games reveals a lot more running and a lot more long passes and chunk plays. Similar to early career Eli and Big Ben.
Are you 13 years old, a Cowboys fan, or near blind?
Why would you say afraid of Jones? Why not say afraid of the OL against their pass rush? Did you not see the game? Jones was having to run for his life and move around practically every drop back. Do you honestly trust our OL against quality defenses?
So which one?
A child
Almost blind
Cowboys fan
pretty sure he was 3/3 w/ a TD in those 3 attempts.
are they afraid of him or Nate Solder/Matt Peart vs. Crosby/Ngakoue?
either way they got lucky not losing because they played not to lose and usually that doesn't work. McKinney, Roche, and Leonard Williams saved the game.
It's obviously not a winning strategy in the long term and it won't make anyone think that the GIants can compete for a Super Bowl, but it can win a few games.
No pass blocking
No passing yardage
How did Daniel Jones throw for over 400 yards against the Saints?
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over ten air yards. That is truly mind boggling. Vintage 1978. The coaching staff is so afraid of him. It's obvious.
pretty sure he was 3/3 w/ a TD in those 3 attempts.
are they afraid of him or Nate Solder/Matt Peart vs. Crosby/Ngakoue?
either way they got lucky not losing because they played not to lose and usually that doesn't work. McKinney, Roche, and Leonard Williams saved the game.
What an idiotic post. "They got lucky they won."
This is code for posters like you that whine "They didn't play exactly how I want, so they got lucky."
Grow up.
I dont get how hard this is to understand
BUT...they have in the past/will in the future. Looking at through that lense - where you say "THe Giants won that game because of Daniel Jones" - I think it looks like this:
DJ games started: 35
Games won: 11
Games DJ WAS the reason they won: 3
2021 @ NO
2019 @ TB
2019 @ WFT
Those numbers don't look good.
Yet is unbelievably negative around here and people are just digging in further. BBI is all about agendas at this point and not about objectivity. Yesterday was a win over a 1st place team.
Ever.
The obvious answer. The goal is to win the game. The goal is not to get fantasy points or accumulate stats.
One thing I do like about Judge is that you don't always see the same game plan every week.
That doesn't mean I think that Daniel Jones is a QB who can lift a team and win playoff games. He doesn't have a plus arm. He doesn't throw well on the run. After 3 years the game has not slowed down for him. He still doesn't scan the field well. He still doesn't see where blitzes are coming from pre snap. He still decides where he's going with the ball before the snap and locks in on his primary receiver. He hasn't learned to look off safeties and he doesn't feel the rush.
We're on to Tampa
That doesn't mean I think that Daniel Jones is a QB who can lift a team and win playoff games. He doesn't have a plus arm. He doesn't throw well on the run. After 3 years the game has not slowed down for him. He still doesn't scan the field well. He still doesn't see where blitzes are coming from pre snap. He still decides where he's going with the ball before the snap and locks in on his primary receiver. He hasn't learned to look off safeties and he doesn't feel the rush.
Keep recycling old stories. Jones has thrown very well on the run for games now. He was looking safeties off just fine yesterday (yes I know you are talking about the bad Int last game). and he does go through progressions like he should if given more than 2 seconds. People need to start watching, or at least listen to people who know what they are talking about, rather than regurgitate crap.
What a stupid thread.
5.5 YPA is low, and often correlates to a poor completion percentage.
To pair a YPA that low with a 75% completion percentage reflects an incredibly conservative approach - either by the coaching staff, by Jones, or by both.
Regardless, it's just not the cause for celebration that some here are acting like it is - it's simply not an especially impressive performance for a starting NFL QB in 2021, especially one with a few years of experience.
The Giants won, though, and that's the most important thing. They didn't win in spite of Jones, but also not especially because of Jones. He was a game manager yesterday and performed adequately in that role.
If you're celebrating that performance, does that mean that your expectations for Jones are such that if he's a career game manager, he's a success?
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In comment 15448121 Producer said:
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over ten air yards. That is truly mind boggling. Vintage 1978. The coaching staff is so afraid of him. It's obvious.
pretty sure he was 3/3 w/ a TD in those 3 attempts.
are they afraid of him or Nate Solder/Matt Peart vs. Crosby/Ngakoue?
either way they got lucky not losing because they played not to lose and usually that doesn't work. McKinney, Roche, and Leonard Williams saved the game.
What an idiotic post. "They got lucky they won."
This is code for posters like you that whine "They didn't play exactly how I want, so they got lucky."
Grow up.
go read any post i've made this year i'm the opposite of the whiners who complain about everything - the post you quoted included.
i try to call things like i see them and that includes that the offensive philosophy/scheme is a disaster - with Jones' poor stat lines a direct result of that. More than halfway through the game he had a 90%+ completion percentage and booker was running the ball and yet they refused to let him take shots downfield to Slayton or Golladay. Especially on first downs when they could have used play action.
the defense won the game and i give them full credit for that but the coaching staff shouldn't have put them in that position because it's a low% way to win in the NFL today and not sustainable.
they had the ball twice in the 4th where a TD essentially puts the game away and both times it was run - run - pass on 3rd and long with the raiders DE's caving in our OTs. That's not a way to set the QB (or his team) up for success.
as Phil Simms once said, "just win the damn game".
I would say they won despite Jones/Garrett not being able to finish the Raiders off in the 4th quarter. A better team would've tied the game at 23 and then we would need to figure out how to score again.
Tell you this much - #79 tackle eligible and dive up the middle with Booker ain't gonna win the game in the 4th quarter.
I can't imagine ever disliking Gettleman, Garrett, Jones, or whoever so much that I openly started rooting for losses and complaining after wins as if we had lost.
The same people who constantly say "show me! go win some games!" are the same people who are ready to throw back any success because it doesn't meet their criteria. Also the same people who preach about no moral victories or excuses are right there ready to line up to find them for the teams we beat.
Insufferable.
Some wanted Jones to face Crosby and Yannick with awful tackle play. Only way to prove himself!
can we acknowledge that it's great to win a game but were 1 better throw from Carr to Waller away from being tied and needing a drive to win like last week in KC? And that kickers missing 20 yarders is the opposite of common?
i believe in daniel jones.
i believe if used correctly downfield like on the TD engram can be a weapon.
Slatyon too.
golladay has made an impact on almost every downfield target he's gotten.
I can also accept that they are limited with Thomas/Toney beat up. but that's the NFL.
i'd like to see this coaching staff give these players the chance to win games instead of hoping the other team's offensive players don't come through because in the NFL today it's a very low % play to count on stopping anyone. including Taylor Heineke as we learned the hard way.
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He only threw 20 passes. Garrett obviously wanted him to manage the game, seeing that our ground game was doing well, and to stay away from sacks, holding penalties, and turnovers due to their ferocious pass rush against inferior guys.
5.5 YPA is low, and often correlates to a poor completion percentage.
To pair a YPA that low with a 75% completion percentage reflects an incredibly conservative approach - either by the coaching staff, by Jones, or by both.
Regardless, it's just not the cause for celebration that some here are acting like it is - it's simply not an especially impressive performance for a starting NFL QB in 2021, especially one with a few years of experience.
The Giants won, though, and that's the most important thing. They didn't win in spite of Jones, but also not especially because of Jones. He was a game manager yesterday and performed adequately in that role.
If you're celebrating that performance, does that mean that your expectations for Jones are such that if he's a career game manager, he's a success?
You are not discussing at least two key details Dunk….
1. They played last Monday night….which means they had two fewer days to plan. I think when that happens, you have to shorten your playbook. Just don’t have the time to plan and practice new things.
But they did what they knew they had to do based on what they knew about the Raiders. Beat them with the run…they are much more difficult against the pass.
It worked!
2. There still are 3 OL starters out, including our great LT. You can’t go crazy with a game plan when you know DJ won’t have the time. But he did very good with what he was asked to do. He was 6-10 on 3rd downs. Toney was 0-2 on his third down plays.
I can't imagine ever disliking Gettleman, Garrett, Jones, or whoever so much that I openly started rooting for losses and complaining after wins as if we had lost.
The same people who constantly say "show me! go win some games!" are the same people who are ready to throw back any success because it doesn't meet their criteria. Also the same people who preach about no moral victories or excuses are right there ready to line up to find them for the teams we beat.
Insufferable.
I always wonder this. My fantasy league is 11 of my good friends and collectively they root for the Pats, Jets, Eagles, Cowboys, and 49ers - so varying amounts of success and a realy good sample size. None of them are anything like what I read on this board and I talk to them all daily.
You are doing just that with your Carr and Waller what ifs. So which is it?
Or not, and continue to whine about those who see both sides of the coin. Hard to fix the problems without acknowledging them.
I cant stand Garrett, but they did exactly what they had to do against a poor run defense and good pass rush
Come out of the bye week with a healthy Thomas and get Solder off the field. Go get to 4-6
I can't imagine ever disliking Gettleman, Garrett, Jones, or whoever so much that I openly started rooting for losses and complaining after wins as if we had lost.
The same people who constantly say "show me! go win some games!" are the same people who are ready to throw back any success because it doesn't meet their criteria. Also the same people who preach about no moral victories or excuses are right there ready to line up to find them for the teams we beat.
Insufferable.
+1. Win some games and then it becomes they don't like how its happening.
The coaches are so afraid of Jones throwing g a 30 yard TD to Engram. 🤣 this has to be the most comical take I have ever seen.
You are doing just that with your Carr and Waller what ifs. So which is it?
I'm not a believer in ignoring what happened just based on the outcome. so to answer your question all of the what ifs are fair game.
I don't think the WFT/ATL losses were just losses to be forgotten, I think they were wasted opportunities because they were games that were 1 first down away from wins that were coached into losses by being conservative. we were too happy to play for field goals, bleeding clock, and letting our defense try to win at the end. this team should be 5-4, even with all the injuries. We could say the same with the chiefs game/Ximines offsides too but that was not a game they could expect to win, and the offense did have a chance at the end to win it.
my point is that as Carr was moving down the field yesterday that's how I expected the game to turn out and while I was as thrilled as anyone Roche made the play he did and they won, I just don't think being conservative and waiting for opposing offenses to fail is a winning recipe in today's NFL. The Raiders ran a 10 play 52 yard drive that had them on our 13 yard line with 4 chances to tie the game. If those other losses on 4Q drives allowed wasn't enough evidence that trying to win on defense in today's NFL is a losing proposition. 1 unexpected amazing play doesn't change the fact that the strategy is flawed.
Jones was ok, he did enough to win and avoided enough negative plays to not lose. So he still must get better, and this also extends to Garrett. Garrett is still coaching scared, there's got to be times where Jones' play reflects this fear. It could be those plays where he's in the pocket and doesn't seem to be processing the action around him, for example.
Fans can look past this, that's the great part of being a fan. If you want to understand the action, there's plenty to see and learn.
The QBs who posted YPA below 6.3 vs. the Raiders were:
Jacoby Brissett*, MIA (4.4 YPA; 215 yards on 49 attempts)
Justin Herbert, LAC (5.8 YPA; 222 yards on 38 attempts)
Justin Fields*, CHI (5.6 YPA; 111 yards on 20 attempts)
Daniel Jones, NYG (5.5 YPA; 110 yards on 20 attempts)
The QBs who exceeded 6.3 YPA vs. the Raiders were:
Lamar Jackson, BAL (7.8 YPA; 235 yards on 30 attempts)
Ben Roethlisberger, PIT (7.4 YPA; 295 yards on 40 attempts)
Teddy Bridgewater, DEN (6.8 YPA; 334 yards on 49 attempts)
Jalen Hurts, PHI (6.9 YPA; 236 yards on 34 attempts)
It's notable that Fields had almost an identical YPA to Jones, on the same number of attempts. In doing so, the Bears were successfully able to limit sacks allowed: LV only sacked Fields twice, half of what the Bears have allowed on average in their other seven games this season. The Bears won this game, 20-9 (and this game seems to have been a large part of the blueprint that the Giants used for their gameplan this week).
Conversely, Teddy Bridgewater was one of two QBs to attempt 49 passes vs. the Raiders this season, and by YPA (6.8), he was also going downfield more frequently than Jones (or Fields). This resulted in Bridgewater being sacked 5 times in that game, which was 40% higher than the average sacks allowed by the Broncos in their other eight games this season. The Broncos lost this game, 34-24.
These two examples do appear to validate a conservative passing strategy against the Raiders, but a larger look at the Raiders' sacks in each game reveals that their pass rush may not be as ferocious as the brand names on their defense might suggest. LV has sacked opposing QBs 20 times in eight games this season - an average of 2.5 per game. Their opponents this season, have allowed 2.5 sacks per game in all their remaining games as well. So the Raiders are not sacking their opponents (except Bridgewater) more frequently than other teams are.
The takeaway, IMO, is that strategy and gameflow absolutely contributed to Jones's statline yesterday. And maybe the Giants would have aired it out a bit more with Thomas in the lineup; that can't be dismissed.
That said, the overly conservative approach continues to be an ongoing trend for the past season and a half. It's so difficult to parse the reasons for that. How much of it is lack of trust in the OL? How much is lack of trust in DJ? How much is simply Judge's preferred approach (this seems like a strong possibility, IMO, given other in-game coaching decisions that Judge makes)?
Other teams have bad OL play, but manage to still put up more prolific passing numbers on offense. And it's not like the conservative approach (whatever the reason) has generally led to success, at least not consistently.
There's a drag on this team's ability to win, and it's primarily on the offensive side of the ball. It's not simple to declare Jones the singular issue creating that drag, but it's also impossible to eliminate that possibility, IMO.
Jones is going to be the quarterback next season, they will probably pick up his 5 th year option.
Contrary to a few of the Jones” critics, his future success has yet to be determined. There are guys like Simms, Steve Young who predict success, we ll see.
But one thing is certain, I d much rather be the fan rooting for his success, than those who watch the game, every game, looking for negative plays from Jones they can use to continue the to repeat their narrative, or even watching other games to see good plays from other quarterbacks to make the same case against Jones; seems like a miserable way to be a fan
Don’t know any of these guys, but here they come across as fans who enjoy his failure more often than his success.
They ruin a lot of posts not even related to Jones for me, by twisting and spinning to make it about him.
I ve tried to pay less attention to their commentary, I certainly don’t give much credence to their opinions anymore
I can't imagine ever disliking Gettleman, Garrett, Jones, or whoever so much that I openly started rooting for losses and complaining after wins as if we had lost.
The same people who constantly say "show me! go win some games!" are the same people who are ready to throw back any success because it doesn't meet their criteria. Also the same people who preach about no moral victories or excuses are right there ready to line up to find them for the teams we beat.
Insufferable.
Who's crying? The team isn't good (3-6 is a bad record last I checked) and isn't going anywhere. That's not crying, it's just facts.
Eli lost eight times when throwing for 350+ yards.
The running game was clicking and the pass blocking was awful so Jones had very little time to throw, so they stuck with what was working.
It's not rocket science.
Again - who cares? They won.
Sheesh...
I can't imagine ever disliking Gettleman, Garrett, Jones, or whoever so much that I openly started rooting for losses and complaining after wins as if we had lost.
The same people who constantly say "show me! go win some games!" are the same people who are ready to throw back any success because it doesn't meet their criteria. Also the same people who preach about no moral victories or excuses are right there ready to line up to find them for the teams we beat.
Insufferable.
BBI is confirmation bias at its finest.
Credit to the defense and run game for grinding out the win.
They desperately need Thomas back, the offense is brutal without him.
Jones was ok, he did enough to win and avoided enough negative plays to not lose. So he still must get better, and this also extends to Garrett. Garrett is still coaching scared, there's got to be times where Jones' play reflects this fear. It could be those plays where he's in the pocket and doesn't seem to be processing the action around him, for example.
Fans can look past this, that's the great part of being a fan. If you want to understand the action, there's plenty to see and learn.
like the Cincy deep ball last year.
in the 3 years prior Engram's main issue was staying on the field. When he was healthy he produced and when OBJ was out of the lineup he produced more than he did with him.
in the 1.5 years of Garrett Engram has been a turnover waiting to happen. overpaid for his usage when not being misused altogether.
once very month we get a glimpse of what he could be doing but they choose not to even try and the whole cycle is once again completely mind boggling.
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It's unbelievable what is offered here on a daily basis.
I can't imagine ever disliking Gettleman, Garrett, Jones, or whoever so much that I openly started rooting for losses and complaining after wins as if we had lost.
The same people who constantly say "show me! go win some games!" are the same people who are ready to throw back any success because it doesn't meet their criteria. Also the same people who preach about no moral victories or excuses are right there ready to line up to find them for the teams we beat.
Insufferable.
Who's crying? The team isn't good (3-6 is a bad record last I checked) and isn't going anywhere. That's not crying, it's just facts.
It's also just halfway through the season but since you've already made a rule that no matter happens from here on out there can be no success, I guess that's that!
Did we need more from Jones yesterday? Did he make some nice throws when needed? Did the Giants win the game? Is is even remotely possible that Jones has some better play left in him these next 2 months and that conjuring up the pedestrian stats from yesterday's game really doesn't settle anything unless you need yet another referendum on DJ's career.
Or is this just another fuck Daniel Jones thread.
But the offense is clearly being carefully managed with a collaborative decision formed by Garrett and Judge - reduce risk by limiting Jones and what the OL has to do in the pass game.
I can understand the approach. If you don't trust the constituent parts to perform, you have to play the game very close to the vest.
Unfortunately, by doing that, it makes evaluating Jones even more difficult, we don't got the best ROI from Golladay and we are not taking advantage of match-ups for Engram, who I think is playing better and better.
But the offense is clearly being carefully managed with a collaborative decision formed by Garrett and Judge - reduce risk by limiting Jones and what the OL has to do in the pass game.
I can understand the approach. If you don't trust the constituent parts to perform, you have to play the game very close to the vest.
Unfortunately, by doing that, it makes evaluating Jones even more difficult, we don't got the best ROI from Golladay and we are not taking advantage of match-ups for Engram, who I think is playing better and better.
Will be telling to see how the offense is adapted once they have Thomas back.
I have stated before that Jones has been reigned in since the middle of last year, and they have not loosened the reigns much since then. I believe it is a trust issue. They didn't trust Jones to open up the offense, be productive, without making too many mistakes, and committing too many turnovers. I stated, just a couple of weeks ago, that the ultra conservative handling of Jones has persisted deep into this season. My statement was met with irrational derision.
I believe they don't trust Jones.
That doesn't mean the O-line is great, or that they therefore trust the O-line, or that other QBs wouldn't be challenged by Jones' situation. These are all logical fallacies.
I agree with your assumption that this conservative offensive regime is hurting our chances at sustained winning. And more than that, it is not attractive football. It's one thing to play conservatively, it's quite another to have only three passes traveling more than ten air yards. That stat sounds crazy to me, as reported by PFF.
I'm glad we won the game, but at this stage it doesn't matter that much to me, if we have to win a few games playing like that. We aren't a good team and we play a bad and boring style of football. And this style won't lead to sustained winning, so I don't see why people are all excited and planning for a wild card playoff run.
This is not allowed here. Context? What is this.
The OL is literally the worst in the league, especially pass-blocking wise and don't let some moron on here tell you any different.
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He had next to zero time to throw yesterday. On nearly every drop back there was guys in his face immediately.
This is not allowed here. Context? What is this.
I'm curious for your thoughts on what I posted above. I think I included as much context as possible (at least in terms of larger sample size, since individual games are effectively zero-sum without knowing each team's intended plan).
That’s hyperbole. Jones had time to throw. Sure, he had to deal with pressure, but that’s life in the NFL.
So, IMV, what we saw wasn’t an inordinate amount of pressure for an NFL game. I thought Carr was under more pressure, especially in the second half.
Link - ( New Window )
The tape of them attempting to pass-block, every coach in the future should have on tape in the OL meetings to show future OL's (for every team in the NFL, not just the Giants) what NOT to do.
They are easily the most inept at their jobs in any field on Planet Earth.
The players on the OL and DG himself should all be ashamed of themselves.
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In comment 15448217 Chris684 said:
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It's unbelievable what is offered here on a daily basis.
I can't imagine ever disliking Gettleman, Garrett, Jones, or whoever so much that I openly started rooting for losses and complaining after wins as if we had lost.
The same people who constantly say "show me! go win some games!" are the same people who are ready to throw back any success because it doesn't meet their criteria. Also the same people who preach about no moral victories or excuses are right there ready to line up to find them for the teams we beat.
Insufferable.
Who's crying? The team isn't good (3-6 is a bad record last I checked) and isn't going anywhere. That's not crying, it's just facts.
It's also just halfway through the season but since you've already made a rule that no matter happens from here on out there can be no success, I guess that's that!
I can already tell you what is likely to happen...
1. Tampa beats them by two scores in a couple weeks
2. Giants go 3-4/4-3 rest of way to finish 6-11/7-10; Mara is once again convinced arrow is pointing up
3. Gettleman is retired, Abrams is elevated to GM
4. Jones's fifth year option is picked up
5. Barkley isn't traded
6. Giants start poorly again in 2022 but depth is worse because of the cap situation - they finish with a record equal or worse to 2021
7. Judge is fired, Abrams stays on, and a veteran reread head coach is hired
Rinse, repeat.
The OL is literally the worst in the league, especially pass-blocking wise and don't let some moron on here tell you any different.
Ok, here's a question to throw out there just for discussion. We know the OL was bad in Eli's final years also, and have almost universally acknowledged that the OL was largely responsible for Eli's steep decline at the end.
Still, Eli's production was never as pedestrian as what often gets celebrated by those who want to prop up Jones. And if we all collectively recognize that the OL continues to be an issue, is there something that Eli was able to do to overcome it that Jones cannot?
- Was Eli better at checking out of/into plays at the line of scrimmage to cover for a poor OL?
- Was Eli more permitted to check out of/into plays at the line of scrimmage to cover for a poor OL?
- If Eli was more permitted to audible, was it because he had demonstrated years of experience, or is this potentially a hidden flaw that we don't get to visibly observe with Jones?
- If Jones is less permitted to audible, is that because he is not demonstrating a clear handle on that ability, or is it because this coaching staff allows less autonomy to the QB than previous coaching staffs allowed?
His WRs were there except one. He had a run game as well. Still - 110 yards.
The word replaceable has never been more clear.
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He had next to zero time to throw yesterday. On nearly every drop back there was guys in his face immediately.
That’s hyperbole. Jones had time to throw. Sure, he had to deal with pressure, but that’s life in the NFL.
So, IMV, what we saw wasn’t an inordinate amount of pressure for an NFL game. I thought Carr was under more pressure, especially in the second half.
I dont think the Giants pass rush could have gotten a whiff of Carr's farts before the sack by Roche. Not sure if we were watching different games
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In comment 15448294 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15448217 Chris684 said:
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It's unbelievable what is offered here on a daily basis.
I can't imagine ever disliking Gettleman, Garrett, Jones, or whoever so much that I openly started rooting for losses and complaining after wins as if we had lost.
The same people who constantly say "show me! go win some games!" are the same people who are ready to throw back any success because it doesn't meet their criteria. Also the same people who preach about no moral victories or excuses are right there ready to line up to find them for the teams we beat.
Insufferable.
Who's crying? The team isn't good (3-6 is a bad record last I checked) and isn't going anywhere. That's not crying, it's just facts.
It's also just halfway through the season but since you've already made a rule that no matter happens from here on out there can be no success, I guess that's that!
I can already tell you what is likely to happen...
1. Tampa beats them by two scores in a couple weeks
2. Giants go 3-4/4-3 rest of way to finish 6-11/7-10; Mara is once again convinced arrow is pointing up
3. Gettleman is retired, Abrams is elevated to GM
4. Jones's fifth year option is picked up
5. Barkley isn't traded
6. Giants start poorly again in 2022 but depth is worse because of the cap situation - they finish with a record equal or worse to 2021
7. Judge is fired, Abrams stays on, and a veteran reread head coach is hired
Rinse, repeat.
So take a break from this forum and the team until things change in 2045?
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especially pass-blocking wise. They were a complete and utter embarrassment. There were alot of times where Jones was under pressure literally as soon as he received the snap.
The OL is literally the worst in the league, especially pass-blocking wise and don't let some moron on here tell you any different.
Ok, here's a question to throw out there just for discussion. We know the OL was bad in Eli's final years also, and have almost universally acknowledged that the OL was largely responsible for Eli's steep decline at the end.
Still, Eli's production was never as pedestrian as what often gets celebrated by those who want to prop up Jones. And if we all collectively recognize that the OL continues to be an issue, is there something that Eli was able to do to overcome it that Jones cannot?
- Was Eli better at checking out of/into plays at the line of scrimmage to cover for a poor OL?
- Was Eli more permitted to check out of/into plays at the line of scrimmage to cover for a poor OL?
- If Eli was more permitted to audible, was it because he had demonstrated years of experience, or is this potentially a hidden flaw that we don't get to visibly observe with Jones?
- If Jones is less permitted to audible, is that because he is not demonstrating a clear handle on that ability, or is it because this coaching staff allows less autonomy to the QB than previous coaching staffs allowed?
All fair questions except one thing. As bad as the OL was in Eli's last few years in particular, they've been even worse these past two years. They were bad with Eli, but it seems like the OL gets worse and worse every year. I'll give them that the run-blocking was halfway decent, but the pass-blocking is shockingly awful every single week. I'm not even saying Jones is the answer. But if a QB is under pressure literally as soon as he receives the snap as often as Jones is, no QB is going be successful with this OL.
It'd also be nice if Thomas can come back soon.
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In comment 15448349 Dave in Hoboken said:
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especially pass-blocking wise. They were a complete and utter embarrassment. There were alot of times where Jones was under pressure literally as soon as he received the snap.
The OL is literally the worst in the league, especially pass-blocking wise and don't let some moron on here tell you any different.
Ok, here's a question to throw out there just for discussion. We know the OL was bad in Eli's final years also, and have almost universally acknowledged that the OL was largely responsible for Eli's steep decline at the end.
Still, Eli's production was never as pedestrian as what often gets celebrated by those who want to prop up Jones. And if we all collectively recognize that the OL continues to be an issue, is there something that Eli was able to do to overcome it that Jones cannot?
- Was Eli better at checking out of/into plays at the line of scrimmage to cover for a poor OL?
- Was Eli more permitted to check out of/into plays at the line of scrimmage to cover for a poor OL?
- If Eli was more permitted to audible, was it because he had demonstrated years of experience, or is this potentially a hidden flaw that we don't get to visibly observe with Jones?
- If Jones is less permitted to audible, is that because he is not demonstrating a clear handle on that ability, or is it because this coaching staff allows less autonomy to the QB than previous coaching staffs allowed?
All fair questions except one thing. As bad as the OL was in Eli's last few years in particular, they've been even worse these past two years. They were bad with Eli, but it seems like the OL gets worse and worse every year. I'll give them that the run-blocking was halfway decent, but the pass-blocking is shockingly awful every single week. I'm not even saying Jones is the answer. But if a QB is under pressure literally as soon as he receives the snap as often as Jones is, no QB is going be successful with this OL.
It'd also be nice if Thomas can come back soon.
It's impossible to say for sure that the OL is worse now than in Eli's last few years. It's entirely possible that Eli put a worse OL in a better position to succeed than Jones is capable of doing now.
Unless you think Flowers, Pugh, Halapio, Jerry, and Hart were better than what we have now?
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In comment 15448366 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15448349 Dave in Hoboken said:
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especially pass-blocking wise. They were a complete and utter embarrassment. There were alot of times where Jones was under pressure literally as soon as he received the snap.
The OL is literally the worst in the league, especially pass-blocking wise and don't let some moron on here tell you any different.
Ok, here's a question to throw out there just for discussion. We know the OL was bad in Eli's final years also, and have almost universally acknowledged that the OL was largely responsible for Eli's steep decline at the end.
Still, Eli's production was never as pedestrian as what often gets celebrated by those who want to prop up Jones. And if we all collectively recognize that the OL continues to be an issue, is there something that Eli was able to do to overcome it that Jones cannot?
- Was Eli better at checking out of/into plays at the line of scrimmage to cover for a poor OL?
- Was Eli more permitted to check out of/into plays at the line of scrimmage to cover for a poor OL?
- If Eli was more permitted to audible, was it because he had demonstrated years of experience, or is this potentially a hidden flaw that we don't get to visibly observe with Jones?
- If Jones is less permitted to audible, is that because he is not demonstrating a clear handle on that ability, or is it because this coaching staff allows less autonomy to the QB than previous coaching staffs allowed?
All fair questions except one thing. As bad as the OL was in Eli's last few years in particular, they've been even worse these past two years. They were bad with Eli, but it seems like the OL gets worse and worse every year. I'll give them that the run-blocking was halfway decent, but the pass-blocking is shockingly awful every single week. I'm not even saying Jones is the answer. But if a QB is under pressure literally as soon as he receives the snap as often as Jones is, no QB is going be successful with this OL.
It'd also be nice if Thomas can come back soon.
It's impossible to say for sure that the OL is worse now than in Eli's last few years. It's entirely possible that Eli put a worse OL in a better position to succeed than Jones is capable of doing now.
Unless you think Flowers, Pugh, Halapio, Jerry, and Hart were better than what we have now?
Have you seen what we're trotting out there now? Before Gates got injured, he was considered one of our best players on the OL, and he'd never played a snap at Center until the Giants made him one. Hernandez sucks. Solder is a fucking joke. Thomas is the only good OL we have, and he's been sitting on the sideline with an injury for the past few weeks, and even he's had some growing pains as a young player.
Yeah. It's an awfully, miserable group of players, to be honest.
O-line all over the league are in distress and this figure suggests that the pressure Jones is receiving is not at all unusual.
@JordanRaanan
·
3h
This isn’t the week for this. I watched all the pass plays this morning. The Giants had no chance to just drop back and protect Daniel Jones against that Raiders front. None. As is, he was pressured on almost half his dropbacks, which is a crazy high number.
------------------
Shut up with the fucking nonsense. This OL is insanely terrible, especially when it comes to pass-blocking.
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In comment 15448376 Dave in Hoboken said:
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In comment 15448366 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15448349 Dave in Hoboken said:
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especially pass-blocking wise. They were a complete and utter embarrassment. There were alot of times where Jones was under pressure literally as soon as he received the snap.
The OL is literally the worst in the league, especially pass-blocking wise and don't let some moron on here tell you any different.
Ok, here's a question to throw out there just for discussion. We know the OL was bad in Eli's final years also, and have almost universally acknowledged that the OL was largely responsible for Eli's steep decline at the end.
Still, Eli's production was never as pedestrian as what often gets celebrated by those who want to prop up Jones. And if we all collectively recognize that the OL continues to be an issue, is there something that Eli was able to do to overcome it that Jones cannot?
- Was Eli better at checking out of/into plays at the line of scrimmage to cover for a poor OL?
- Was Eli more permitted to check out of/into plays at the line of scrimmage to cover for a poor OL?
- If Eli was more permitted to audible, was it because he had demonstrated years of experience, or is this potentially a hidden flaw that we don't get to visibly observe with Jones?
- If Jones is less permitted to audible, is that because he is not demonstrating a clear handle on that ability, or is it because this coaching staff allows less autonomy to the QB than previous coaching staffs allowed?
All fair questions except one thing. As bad as the OL was in Eli's last few years in particular, they've been even worse these past two years. They were bad with Eli, but it seems like the OL gets worse and worse every year. I'll give them that the run-blocking was halfway decent, but the pass-blocking is shockingly awful every single week. I'm not even saying Jones is the answer. But if a QB is under pressure literally as soon as he receives the snap as often as Jones is, no QB is going be successful with this OL.
It'd also be nice if Thomas can come back soon.
It's impossible to say for sure that the OL is worse now than in Eli's last few years. It's entirely possible that Eli put a worse OL in a better position to succeed than Jones is capable of doing now.
Unless you think Flowers, Pugh, Halapio, Jerry, and Hart were better than what we have now?
Have you seen what we're trotting out there now? Before Gates got injured, he was considered one of our best players on the OL, and he'd never played a snap at Center until the Giants made him one. Hernandez sucks. Solder is a fucking joke. Thomas is the only good OL we have, and he's been sitting on the sideline with an injury for the past few weeks, and even he's had some growing pains as a young player.
Yeah. It's an awfully, miserable group of players, to be honest.
Ok, this post tells me you're making excuses. Dave Diehl had never played guard before we made him one. Luke Petitgout had never played RT before we made him one. Chris Bober never played OC before we made him one. Adam Koets never played OC before we made him one.
That shit happens. You cannot convince me that the OL that we started the year with was worse that what Eli was dealing with late in his career. If you try, it's a lame fucking excuse.
And even if I let you get away with that crap, I'll ask you why none of the other QBs with shitty OLs are posting passing TD numbers from the Otto Graham era?
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In comment 15448392 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15448376 Dave in Hoboken said:
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In comment 15448366 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15448349 Dave in Hoboken said:
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especially pass-blocking wise. They were a complete and utter embarrassment. There were alot of times where Jones was under pressure literally as soon as he received the snap.
The OL is literally the worst in the league, especially pass-blocking wise and don't let some moron on here tell you any different.
Ok, here's a question to throw out there just for discussion. We know the OL was bad in Eli's final years also, and have almost universally acknowledged that the OL was largely responsible for Eli's steep decline at the end.
Still, Eli's production was never as pedestrian as what often gets celebrated by those who want to prop up Jones. And if we all collectively recognize that the OL continues to be an issue, is there something that Eli was able to do to overcome it that Jones cannot?
- Was Eli better at checking out of/into plays at the line of scrimmage to cover for a poor OL?
- Was Eli more permitted to check out of/into plays at the line of scrimmage to cover for a poor OL?
- If Eli was more permitted to audible, was it because he had demonstrated years of experience, or is this potentially a hidden flaw that we don't get to visibly observe with Jones?
- If Jones is less permitted to audible, is that because he is not demonstrating a clear handle on that ability, or is it because this coaching staff allows less autonomy to the QB than previous coaching staffs allowed?
All fair questions except one thing. As bad as the OL was in Eli's last few years in particular, they've been even worse these past two years. They were bad with Eli, but it seems like the OL gets worse and worse every year. I'll give them that the run-blocking was halfway decent, but the pass-blocking is shockingly awful every single week. I'm not even saying Jones is the answer. But if a QB is under pressure literally as soon as he receives the snap as often as Jones is, no QB is going be successful with this OL.
It'd also be nice if Thomas can come back soon.
It's impossible to say for sure that the OL is worse now than in Eli's last few years. It's entirely possible that Eli put a worse OL in a better position to succeed than Jones is capable of doing now.
Unless you think Flowers, Pugh, Halapio, Jerry, and Hart were better than what we have now?
Have you seen what we're trotting out there now? Before Gates got injured, he was considered one of our best players on the OL, and he'd never played a snap at Center until the Giants made him one. Hernandez sucks. Solder is a fucking joke. Thomas is the only good OL we have, and he's been sitting on the sideline with an injury for the past few weeks, and even he's had some growing pains as a young player.
Yeah. It's an awfully, miserable group of players, to be honest.
Ok, this post tells me you're making excuses. Dave Diehl had never played guard before we made him one. Luke Petitgout had never played RT before we made him one. Chris Bober never played OC before we made him one. Adam Koets never played OC before we made him one.
That shit happens. You cannot convince me that the OL that we started the year with was worse that what Eli was dealing with late in his career. If you try, it's a lame fucking excuse.
And even if I let you get away with that crap, I'll ask you why none of the other QBs with shitty OLs are posting passing TD numbers from the Otto Graham era?
Just want to acknowledge here before I get called out, that Dave Diehl did play OG in college. I'll withdraw him from my example.
But I'll add a different example: Jason Peters never even played OL in college, and became an all-pro OLT. The Gates OC narrative has expired. Let it go.
@JordanRaanan
·
3h
This isn’t the week for this. I watched all the pass plays this morning. The Giants had no chance to just drop back and protect Daniel Jones against that Raiders front. None. As is, he was pressured on almost half his dropbacks, which is a crazy high number.
------------------
Shut up with the fucking nonsense. This OL is insanely terrible, especially when it comes to pass-blocking.
Linked is a video of every dropback. Pressure was brutal all game. Wish they moved the pocket more, PA boots.
Former exec Joe Banner criticized the lack of taking advantage of first down passing:
Partially because they ran the ball almost every 1st and 10 after the first drive. The play calling is killing them. This is not new but even more extreme. They aren’t throwing on the best down to throw on and easiest to pass protect. Especially if you have this tendency
Link - ( New Window )
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In comment 15448392 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15448376 Dave in Hoboken said:
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In comment 15448366 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15448349 Dave in Hoboken said:
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especially pass-blocking wise. They were a complete and utter embarrassment. There were alot of times where Jones was under pressure literally as soon as he received the snap.
The OL is literally the worst in the league, especially pass-blocking wise and don't let some moron on here tell you any different.
Ok, here's a question to throw out there just for discussion. We know the OL was bad in Eli's final years also, and have almost universally acknowledged that the OL was largely responsible for Eli's steep decline at the end.
Still, Eli's production was never as pedestrian as what often gets celebrated by those who want to prop up Jones. And if we all collectively recognize that the OL continues to be an issue, is there something that Eli was able to do to overcome it that Jones cannot?
- Was Eli better at checking out of/into plays at the line of scrimmage to cover for a poor OL?
- Was Eli more permitted to check out of/into plays at the line of scrimmage to cover for a poor OL?
- If Eli was more permitted to audible, was it because he had demonstrated years of experience, or is this potentially a hidden flaw that we don't get to visibly observe with Jones?
- If Jones is less permitted to audible, is that because he is not demonstrating a clear handle on that ability, or is it because this coaching staff allows less autonomy to the QB than previous coaching staffs allowed?
All fair questions except one thing. As bad as the OL was in Eli's last few years in particular, they've been even worse these past two years. They were bad with Eli, but it seems like the OL gets worse and worse every year. I'll give them that the run-blocking was halfway decent, but the pass-blocking is shockingly awful every single week. I'm not even saying Jones is the answer. But if a QB is under pressure literally as soon as he receives the snap as often as Jones is, no QB is going be successful with this OL.
It'd also be nice if Thomas can come back soon.
It's impossible to say for sure that the OL is worse now than in Eli's last few years. It's entirely possible that Eli put a worse OL in a better position to succeed than Jones is capable of doing now.
Unless you think Flowers, Pugh, Halapio, Jerry, and Hart were better than what we have now?
Have you seen what we're trotting out there now? Before Gates got injured, he was considered one of our best players on the OL, and he'd never played a snap at Center until the Giants made him one. Hernandez sucks. Solder is a fucking joke. Thomas is the only good OL we have, and he's been sitting on the sideline with an injury for the past few weeks, and even he's had some growing pains as a young player.
Yeah. It's an awfully, miserable group of players, to be honest.
Ok, this post tells me you're making excuses. Dave Diehl had never played guard before we made him one. Luke Petitgout had never played RT before we made him one. Chris Bober never played OC before we made him one. Adam Koets never played OC before we made him one.
That shit happens. You cannot convince me that the OL that we started the year with was worse that what Eli was dealing with late in his career. If you try, it's a lame fucking excuse.
And even if I let you get away with that crap, I'll ask you why none of the other QBs with shitty OLs are posting passing TD numbers from the Otto Graham era?
"Making excuses", eh?
Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
·
3h
This isn’t the week for this. I watched all the pass plays this morning. The Giants had no chance to just drop back and protect Daniel Jones against that Raiders front. None. As is, he was pressured on almost half his dropbacks, which is a crazy high number.
Take your making excuses BS and shove it. Yeah, the likes of Gates, Solder, Hernandez, and Peart are anywhere on the same planet as Diehl or even a Petitgout. Talk about a horrific comparison that makes my point for me. Holy shit. Asking an OL to switch positions to Center is just a tad different than asking one to play Guard. And Diehl in his prime blows away anyone on our current line outside of maybe Thomas. This literally might be the least talented OL in the entire league right now. Outside of Thomas, would any of these guys even start on the majority of teams in the league.
Making excuses my ass.
@JordanRaanan
·
3h
This isn’t the week for this. I watched all the pass plays this morning. The Giants had no chance to just drop back and protect Daniel Jones against that Raiders front. None. As is, he was pressured on almost half his dropbacks, which is a crazy high number.
------------------
Shut up with the fucking nonsense. This OL is insanely terrible, especially when it comes to pass-blocking.
Telling me to "shut up with fucking nonsense" is not a coherent argument. I gave you a cold number. Yelling at me doesn't address the data. I'm sorry you don't like the number. Raanan's anecdotal observation, also doesn't address the data. A lot of QBs are getting pressured.
You could come back with mitigating factors why the number might be misleading. We can discuss that.
Or you can chart every dropback in the NFL and come up with your *own take* on how much pressure every QB receives. But you're not going to do that.
And I am not saying Jones gets great protection based on that number, or that the O-line is great, I know it is not.
But there is data out there that suggests that Jones is not getting an exceedingly egregious amount of pressure compared to other QBs. That's it. You don't have to lose your shit at people who don't agree with you. This is not some exotic stat I am quoting. I got it from pro-football-reference.com, I believe this is based on numbers tracked by the NFL. This isn't data provided by some newfangled analytics operation.
And your comparative analysis of the OLs is specious. Eli's list got somewhat better over time. These guys have no talent.
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In comment 15448400 Dave in Hoboken said:
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In comment 15448392 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15448376 Dave in Hoboken said:
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In comment 15448366 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15448349 Dave in Hoboken said:
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especially pass-blocking wise. They were a complete and utter embarrassment. There were alot of times where Jones was under pressure literally as soon as he received the snap.
The OL is literally the worst in the league, especially pass-blocking wise and don't let some moron on here tell you any different.
Ok, here's a question to throw out there just for discussion. We know the OL was bad in Eli's final years also, and have almost universally acknowledged that the OL was largely responsible for Eli's steep decline at the end.
Still, Eli's production was never as pedestrian as what often gets celebrated by those who want to prop up Jones. And if we all collectively recognize that the OL continues to be an issue, is there something that Eli was able to do to overcome it that Jones cannot?
- Was Eli better at checking out of/into plays at the line of scrimmage to cover for a poor OL?
- Was Eli more permitted to check out of/into plays at the line of scrimmage to cover for a poor OL?
- If Eli was more permitted to audible, was it because he had demonstrated years of experience, or is this potentially a hidden flaw that we don't get to visibly observe with Jones?
- If Jones is less permitted to audible, is that because he is not demonstrating a clear handle on that ability, or is it because this coaching staff allows less autonomy to the QB than previous coaching staffs allowed?
All fair questions except one thing. As bad as the OL was in Eli's last few years in particular, they've been even worse these past two years. They were bad with Eli, but it seems like the OL gets worse and worse every year. I'll give them that the run-blocking was halfway decent, but the pass-blocking is shockingly awful every single week. I'm not even saying Jones is the answer. But if a QB is under pressure literally as soon as he receives the snap as often as Jones is, no QB is going be successful with this OL.
It'd also be nice if Thomas can come back soon.
It's impossible to say for sure that the OL is worse now than in Eli's last few years. It's entirely possible that Eli put a worse OL in a better position to succeed than Jones is capable of doing now.
Unless you think Flowers, Pugh, Halapio, Jerry, and Hart were better than what we have now?
Have you seen what we're trotting out there now? Before Gates got injured, he was considered one of our best players on the OL, and he'd never played a snap at Center until the Giants made him one. Hernandez sucks. Solder is a fucking joke. Thomas is the only good OL we have, and he's been sitting on the sideline with an injury for the past few weeks, and even he's had some growing pains as a young player.
Yeah. It's an awfully, miserable group of players, to be honest.
Ok, this post tells me you're making excuses. Dave Diehl had never played guard before we made him one. Luke Petitgout had never played RT before we made him one. Chris Bober never played OC before we made him one. Adam Koets never played OC before we made him one.
That shit happens. You cannot convince me that the OL that we started the year with was worse that what Eli was dealing with late in his career. If you try, it's a lame fucking excuse.
And even if I let you get away with that crap, I'll ask you why none of the other QBs with shitty OLs are posting passing TD numbers from the Otto Graham era?
"Making excuses", eh?
Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
·
3h
This isn’t the week for this. I watched all the pass plays this morning. The Giants had no chance to just drop back and protect Daniel Jones against that Raiders front. None. As is, he was pressured on almost half his dropbacks, which is a crazy high number.
Take your making excuses BS and shove it. Yeah, the likes of Gates, Solder, Hernandez, and Peart are anywhere on the same planet as Diehl or even a Petitgout. Talk about a horrific comparison that makes my point for me. Holy shit. Asking an OL to switch positions to Center is just a tad different than asking one to play Guard. And Diehl in his prime blows away anyone on our current line outside of maybe Thomas. This literally might be the least talented OL in the entire league right now. Outside of Thomas, would any of these guys even start on the majority of teams in the league.
Making excuses my ass.
That's one game.
He had 11 passing TDs last season. He's on pace for 15 passing TDs this season.
We're in the midst of the most prolific offensive era in NFL history.
Stop using one game as your sample size, and make a cogent argument, unless that's beyond your depth.
Your reading comprehension is almost as bad as your data comprehension.
Look at Eli's OL in his final two seasons and come back and post here that they were better than the OL we currently have.
You'll get laughed off the board.
That's the offense.
I mean...he hit on almost every throw.
There was one throw I wanted back and it's when Galloday cut off a route and DJ threw long.
That's it IMO. The Giants play in a box.
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In comment 15448294 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15448217 Chris684 said:
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It's unbelievable what is offered here on a daily basis.
I can't imagine ever disliking Gettleman, Garrett, Jones, or whoever so much that I openly started rooting for losses and complaining after wins as if we had lost.
The same people who constantly say "show me! go win some games!" are the same people who are ready to throw back any success because it doesn't meet their criteria. Also the same people who preach about no moral victories or excuses are right there ready to line up to find them for the teams we beat.
Insufferable.
Who's crying? The team isn't good (3-6 is a bad record last I checked) and isn't going anywhere. That's not crying, it's just facts.
It's also just halfway through the season but since you've already made a rule that no matter happens from here on out there can be no success, I guess that's that!
I can already tell you what is likely to happen...
1. Tampa beats them by two scores in a couple weeks
2. Giants go 3-4/4-3 rest of way to finish 6-11/7-10; Mara is once again convinced arrow is pointing up
3. Gettleman is retired, Abrams is elevated to GM
4. Jones's fifth year option is picked up
5. Barkley isn't traded
6. Giants start poorly again in 2022 but depth is worse because of the cap situation - they finish with a record equal or worse to 2021
7. Judge is fired, Abrams stays on, and a veteran reread head coach is hired
Rinse, repeat.
And this is exactly why I view yesterday as an overall negative. This scenario is such a nightmare Freddy Krueger wouldn't touch it
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In comment 15448400 Dave in Hoboken said:
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In comment 15448392 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15448376 Dave in Hoboken said:
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In comment 15448366 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15448349 Dave in Hoboken said:
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especially pass-blocking wise. They were a complete and utter embarrassment. There were alot of times where Jones was under pressure literally as soon as he received the snap.
The OL is literally the worst in the league, especially pass-blocking wise and don't let some moron on here tell you any different.
Ok, here's a question to throw out there just for discussion. We know the OL was bad in Eli's final years also, and have almost universally acknowledged that the OL was largely responsible for Eli's steep decline at the end.
Still, Eli's production was never as pedestrian as what often gets celebrated by those who want to prop up Jones. And if we all collectively recognize that the OL continues to be an issue, is there something that Eli was able to do to overcome it that Jones cannot?
- Was Eli better at checking out of/into plays at the line of scrimmage to cover for a poor OL?
- Was Eli more permitted to check out of/into plays at the line of scrimmage to cover for a poor OL?
- If Eli was more permitted to audible, was it because he had demonstrated years of experience, or is this potentially a hidden flaw that we don't get to visibly observe with Jones?
- If Jones is less permitted to audible, is that because he is not demonstrating a clear handle on that ability, or is it because this coaching staff allows less autonomy to the QB than previous coaching staffs allowed?
All fair questions except one thing. As bad as the OL was in Eli's last few years in particular, they've been even worse these past two years. They were bad with Eli, but it seems like the OL gets worse and worse every year. I'll give them that the run-blocking was halfway decent, but the pass-blocking is shockingly awful every single week. I'm not even saying Jones is the answer. But if a QB is under pressure literally as soon as he receives the snap as often as Jones is, no QB is going be successful with this OL.
It'd also be nice if Thomas can come back soon.
It's impossible to say for sure that the OL is worse now than in Eli's last few years. It's entirely possible that Eli put a worse OL in a better position to succeed than Jones is capable of doing now.
Unless you think Flowers, Pugh, Halapio, Jerry, and Hart were better than what we have now?
Have you seen what we're trotting out there now? Before Gates got injured, he was considered one of our best players on the OL, and he'd never played a snap at Center until the Giants made him one. Hernandez sucks. Solder is a fucking joke. Thomas is the only good OL we have, and he's been sitting on the sideline with an injury for the past few weeks, and even he's had some growing pains as a young player.
Yeah. It's an awfully, miserable group of players, to be honest.
Ok, this post tells me you're making excuses. Dave Diehl had never played guard before we made him one. Luke Petitgout had never played RT before we made him one. Chris Bober never played OC before we made him one. Adam Koets never played OC before we made him one.
That shit happens. You cannot convince me that the OL that we started the year with was worse that what Eli was dealing with late in his career. If you try, it's a lame fucking excuse.
And even if I let you get away with that crap, I'll ask you why none of the other QBs with shitty OLs are posting passing TD numbers from the Otto Graham era?
"Making excuses", eh?
Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
·
3h
This isn’t the week for this. I watched all the pass plays this morning. The Giants had no chance to just drop back and protect Daniel Jones against that Raiders front. None. As is, he was pressured on almost half his dropbacks, which is a crazy high number.
Take your making excuses BS and shove it. Yeah, the likes of Gates, Solder, Hernandez, and Peart are anywhere on the same planet as Diehl or even a Petitgout. Talk about a horrific comparison that makes my point for me. Holy shit. Asking an OL to switch positions to Center is just a tad different than asking one to play Guard. And Diehl in his prime blows away anyone on our current line outside of maybe Thomas. This literally might be the least talented OL in the entire league right now. Outside of Thomas, would any of these guys even start on the majority of teams in the league.
Making excuses my ass.
Ok, you're right. They're not excuses. They're explanations. But not for what you think.
Tell me how the 2017 OL was better than the one we had last year or this year. Let's hear it.
Garrett wasn’t exploiting some huge weakness there.
So let’s go back to the number: 110. That’s an unheard of number these days.
The offense isn’t working and Jones is only partly responsible but c’mon man.
. - ( New Window )
That's the offense.
I mean...he hit on almost every throw.
There was one throw I wanted back and it's when Galloday cut off a route and DJ threw long.
That's it IMO. The Giants play in a box.
good point. Jones hit 15 of 20, Garrett is calling the plays. The announcers said the Raiders were dropping to take away the deeper stuff, probably because they didn't expect the Giants to be able to run. That really screwed up their D plans
1) Over the bye week Jones magically transforms from the ugly duckling into a beautiful swan. He averages 325 yards and 2+ TDs per game. But the Giants go 1-7.
2) The Giants go 4-3. Jones continues being Jones. He has 5 Regular Jones games plus 1-2 good games and 1-2 bad games.
I'm taking scenario 1 every time and it's not close. This season is done. We're probably going to be stuck with Jones as QB for a while no matter how he plays. Give me a guy who can light it up for next year. Without that we're basically reliant on outstanding red zone defense (which is not sustainable) and opponent mistakes to win games.
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..but what throws did we see that DJ didn't hit?
That's the offense.
I mean...he hit on almost every throw.
There was one throw I wanted back and it's when Galloday cut off a route and DJ threw long.
That's it IMO. The Giants play in a box.
good point. Jones hit 15 of 20, Garrett is calling the plays. The announcers said the Raiders were dropping to take away the deeper stuff, probably because they didn't expect the Giants to be able to run. That really screwed up their D plans
It didn't really screw up their D plans. Their defense did enough to win. Their defense matched ours. Our defense scored a TD and theirs didn't. That was the difference.
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In comment 15448416 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15448400 Dave in Hoboken said:
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In comment 15448392 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15448376 Dave in Hoboken said:
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In comment 15448366 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15448349 Dave in Hoboken said:
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especially pass-blocking wise. They were a complete and utter embarrassment. There were alot of times where Jones was under pressure literally as soon as he received the snap.
The OL is literally the worst in the league, especially pass-blocking wise and don't let some moron on here tell you any different.
Ok, here's a question to throw out there just for discussion. We know the OL was bad in Eli's final years also, and have almost universally acknowledged that the OL was largely responsible for Eli's steep decline at the end.
Still, Eli's production was never as pedestrian as what often gets celebrated by those who want to prop up Jones. And if we all collectively recognize that the OL continues to be an issue, is there something that Eli was able to do to overcome it that Jones cannot?
- Was Eli better at checking out of/into plays at the line of scrimmage to cover for a poor OL?
- Was Eli more permitted to check out of/into plays at the line of scrimmage to cover for a poor OL?
- If Eli was more permitted to audible, was it because he had demonstrated years of experience, or is this potentially a hidden flaw that we don't get to visibly observe with Jones?
- If Jones is less permitted to audible, is that because he is not demonstrating a clear handle on that ability, or is it because this coaching staff allows less autonomy to the QB than previous coaching staffs allowed?
All fair questions except one thing. As bad as the OL was in Eli's last few years in particular, they've been even worse these past two years. They were bad with Eli, but it seems like the OL gets worse and worse every year. I'll give them that the run-blocking was halfway decent, but the pass-blocking is shockingly awful every single week. I'm not even saying Jones is the answer. But if a QB is under pressure literally as soon as he receives the snap as often as Jones is, no QB is going be successful with this OL.
It'd also be nice if Thomas can come back soon.
It's impossible to say for sure that the OL is worse now than in Eli's last few years. It's entirely possible that Eli put a worse OL in a better position to succeed than Jones is capable of doing now.
Unless you think Flowers, Pugh, Halapio, Jerry, and Hart were better than what we have now?
Have you seen what we're trotting out there now? Before Gates got injured, he was considered one of our best players on the OL, and he'd never played a snap at Center until the Giants made him one. Hernandez sucks. Solder is a fucking joke. Thomas is the only good OL we have, and he's been sitting on the sideline with an injury for the past few weeks, and even he's had some growing pains as a young player.
Yeah. It's an awfully, miserable group of players, to be honest.
Ok, this post tells me you're making excuses. Dave Diehl had never played guard before we made him one. Luke Petitgout had never played RT before we made him one. Chris Bober never played OC before we made him one. Adam Koets never played OC before we made him one.
That shit happens. You cannot convince me that the OL that we started the year with was worse that what Eli was dealing with late in his career. If you try, it's a lame fucking excuse.
And even if I let you get away with that crap, I'll ask you why none of the other QBs with shitty OLs are posting passing TD numbers from the Otto Graham era?
"Making excuses", eh?
Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
·
3h
This isn’t the week for this. I watched all the pass plays this morning. The Giants had no chance to just drop back and protect Daniel Jones against that Raiders front. None. As is, he was pressured on almost half his dropbacks, which is a crazy high number.
Take your making excuses BS and shove it. Yeah, the likes of Gates, Solder, Hernandez, and Peart are anywhere on the same planet as Diehl or even a Petitgout. Talk about a horrific comparison that makes my point for me. Holy shit. Asking an OL to switch positions to Center is just a tad different than asking one to play Guard. And Diehl in his prime blows away anyone on our current line outside of maybe Thomas. This literally might be the least talented OL in the entire league right now. Outside of Thomas, would any of these guys even start on the majority of teams in the league.
Making excuses my ass.
Ok, you're right. They're not excuses. They're explanations. But not for what you think.
Tell me how the 2017 OL was better than the one we had last year or this year. Let's hear it.
The OL has been terrible for the majority of a decade, no argument there. They sucked in 2017, as well. But were they giving up pressure for half or more than half of the QB dropbacks in a given game? To the point where they refuse to go deep all that often because the OL doesn't give the WRs time to get open or go downfield? The 2020 and 2021 lines are probably the two worst OL's we've had in the past decade.
That could have been an L. In fact, it’s a statistically bizarre result. The other low yard passing performances I saw in the 110 range were all losses, often blowouts.
No of course Jones isnt the only one at fault, but that performance is the lower than the band of reasonable outcomes one sees. The Giants were lucky. You have to think that Carr, who was very affected by the Ruggs scandal, was completely out of it.
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especially pass-blocking wise. They were a complete and utter embarrassment. There were alot of times where Jones was under pressure literally as soon as he received the snap.
The OL is literally the worst in the league, especially pass-blocking wise and don't let some moron on here tell you any different.
Ok, here's a question to throw out there just for discussion. We know the OL was bad in Eli's final years also, and have almost universally acknowledged that the OL was largely responsible for Eli's steep decline at the end.
Still, Eli's production was never as pedestrian as what often gets celebrated by those who want to prop up Jones. And if we all collectively recognize that the OL continues to be an issue, is there something that Eli was able to do to overcome it that Jones cannot?
- Was Eli better at checking out of/into plays at the line of scrimmage to cover for a poor OL?
- Was Eli more permitted to check out of/into plays at the line of scrimmage to cover for a poor OL?
- If Eli was more permitted to audible, was it because he had demonstrated years of experience, or is this potentially a hidden flaw that we don't get to visibly observe with Jones?
- If Jones is less permitted to audible, is that because he is not demonstrating a clear handle on that ability, or is it because this coaching staff allows less autonomy to the QB than previous coaching staffs allowed?
All fair questions except one thing. As bad as the OL was in Eli's last few years in particular, they've been even worse these past two years. They were bad with Eli, but it seems like the OL gets worse and worse every year. I'll give them that the run-blocking was halfway decent, but the pass-blocking is shockingly awful every single week. I'm not even saying Jones is the answer. But if a QB is under pressure literally as soon as he receives the snap as often as Jones is, no QB is going be successful with this OL.
It'd also be nice if Thomas can come back soon.
It's impossible to say for sure that the OL is worse now than in Eli's last few years. It's entirely possible that Eli put a worse OL in a better position to succeed than Jones is capable of doing now.
Unless you think Flowers, Pugh, Halapio, Jerry, and Hart were better than what we have now?
Have you seen what we're trotting out there now? Before Gates got injured, he was considered one of our best players on the OL, and he'd never played a snap at Center until the Giants made him one. Hernandez sucks. Solder is a fucking joke. Thomas is the only good OL we have, and he's been sitting on the sideline with an injury for the past few weeks, and even he's had some growing pains as a young player.
Yeah. It's an awfully, miserable group of players, to be honest.
Ok, this post tells me you're making excuses. Dave Diehl had never played guard before we made him one. Luke Petitgout had never played RT before we made him one. Chris Bober never played OC before we made him one. Adam Koets never played OC before we made him one.
That shit happens. You cannot convince me that the OL that we started the year with was worse that what Eli was dealing with late in his career. If you try, it's a lame fucking excuse.
And even if I let you get away with that crap, I'll ask you why none of the other QBs with shitty OLs are posting passing TD numbers from the Otto Graham era?
"Making excuses", eh?
Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
·
3h
This isn’t the week for this. I watched all the pass plays this morning. The Giants had no chance to just drop back and protect Daniel Jones against that Raiders front. None. As is, he was pressured on almost half his dropbacks, which is a crazy high number.
Take your making excuses BS and shove it. Yeah, the likes of Gates, Solder, Hernandez, and Peart are anywhere on the same planet as Diehl or even a Petitgout. Talk about a horrific comparison that makes my point for me. Holy shit. Asking an OL to switch positions to Center is just a tad different than asking one to play Guard. And Diehl in his prime blows away anyone on our current line outside of maybe Thomas. This literally might be the least talented OL in the entire league right now. Outside of Thomas, would any of these guys even start on the majority of teams in the league.
Making excuses my ass.
Ok, you're right. They're not excuses. They're explanations. But not for what you think.
Tell me how the 2017 OL was better than the one we had last year or this year. Let's hear it.
The OL has been terrible for the majority of a decade, no argument there. They sucked in 2017, as well. But were they giving up pressure for half or more than half of the QB dropbacks in a given game? To the point where they refuse to go deep all that often because the OL doesn't give the WRs time to get open or go downfield? The 2020 and 2021 lines are probably the two worst OL's we've had in the past decade.
I think my point is lost on you.
A good QB can command a bad OL better than a middling QB can. And we have no idea whether the OL is the only reason for the offense being dogshit or whether DJ doesn't bail them out of bad scenarios the way that Eli did.
That could have been an L. In fact, it’s a statistically bizarre result. The other low yard passing performances I saw in the 110 range were all losses, often blowouts.
No of course Jones isnt the only one at fault, but that performance is the lower than the band of reasonable outcomes one sees. The Giants were lucky. You have to think that Carr, who was very affected by the Ruggs scandal, was completely out of it.
When you are literally running for your life in 50% of your drop backs, it matters. It is like criticizing a car for not going fast enough if the engine is defective. He can't throw if he can stand on his feet.
I can't wait to get Thomas back.
I can already tell you what is likely to happen...
1. Tampa beats them by two scores in a couple weeks
2. Giants go 3-4/4-3 rest of way to finish 6-11/7-10; Mara is once again convinced arrow is pointing up
3. Gettleman is retired, Abrams is elevated to GM
4. Jones's fifth year option is picked up
5. Barkley isn't traded
6. Giants start poorly again in 2022 but depth is worse because of the cap situation - they finish with a record equal or worse to 2021
7. Judge is fired, Abrams stays on, and a veteran reread head coach is hired
Rinse, repeat.
You know this is greater than 50% chance of happening right?
Completely out of it?
New take.
Seemed fine to me, dude just did not get it done in the red zone.
Did he miss Ruggs, sure. But out of it? C'mon.....
1) Over the bye week Jones magically transforms from the ugly duckling into a beautiful swan. He averages 325 yards and 2+ TDs per game. But the Giants go 1-7.
2) The Giants go 4-3. Jones continues being Jones. He has 5 Regular Jones games plus 1-2 good games and 1-2 bad games.
I'm taking scenario 1 every time and it's not close. This season is done. We're probably going to be stuck with Jones as QB for a while no matter how he plays. Give me a guy who can light it up for next year. Without that we're basically reliant on outstanding red zone defense (which is not sustainable) and opponent mistakes to win games.
What if in scenario 1 the Giants get blown out in nearly every game and Jones' stats are mostly garbage time?
This is why playing this game is silly.
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In comment 15448294 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15448217 Chris684 said:
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It's unbelievable what is offered here on a daily basis.
I can't imagine ever disliking Gettleman, Garrett, Jones, or whoever so much that I openly started rooting for losses and complaining after wins as if we had lost.
The same people who constantly say "show me! go win some games!" are the same people who are ready to throw back any success because it doesn't meet their criteria. Also the same people who preach about no moral victories or excuses are right there ready to line up to find them for the teams we beat.
Insufferable.
Who's crying? The team isn't good (3-6 is a bad record last I checked) and isn't going anywhere. That's not crying, it's just facts.
It's also just halfway through the season but since you've already made a rule that no matter happens from here on out there can be no success, I guess that's that!
I can already tell you what is likely to happen...
1. Tampa beats them by two scores in a couple weeks
2. Giants go 3-4/4-3 rest of way to finish 6-11/7-10; Mara is once again convinced arrow is pointing up
3. Gettleman is retired, Abrams is elevated to GM
4. Jones's fifth year option is picked up
5. Barkley isn't traded
6. Giants start poorly again in 2022 but depth is worse because of the cap situation - they finish with a record equal or worse to 2021
7. Judge is fired, Abrams stays on, and a veteran reread head coach is hired
Rinse, repeat.
Jesus, you are scaring the women and children. Worst of all, I believe you are not far off with your prediction.
The Giants need to open things up when Thomas and Barkley return because they need to get a true evaluation on the QB. Grinding out these 17-14 coin flips isn't going to do this franchise any good longterm. Jones isn't without fault either, he's driving the ship here but he's not really being given the opportunity either.
Passer rating is overrated. I would ignore it. It's just math and doesn't look at the situations of the game.
Use QBR instead. It's not completely perfect - not stat is is - but it at least reflects the view of two analysts watching every play.
Jones's QBR was 48.3, which is a little below average in the NFL. So he didn't play great and he didn't play horribly. He just hovered around mediocrity.
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With complete dog shit. What was he 9 for 10 in the first half with a throw away running for his life? He he did a 5 or 7 step drop we would be looking for a new QB right now. Some people don’t understand football..
Passer rating is overrated. I would ignore it. It's just math and doesn't look at the situations of the game.
Use QBR instead. It's not completely perfect - not stat is is - but it at least reflects the view of two analysts watching every play.
Jones's QBR was 48.3, which is a little below average in the NFL. So he didn't play great and he didn't play horribly. He just hovered around mediocrity.
You can't just pick and chose the metrics that you want, This is called cherry picking to make your case. Also you can't look at players in a vacuum. There are 21 other starters out there, 10 other on offense. That affects the QB's play (any QB). Your eyes, and stats, show everyone hoe deficient the surrounding cast that Jones has is right now. You can't compare this to Cleveland, KC, Dallas, etc., its not a fair comparison
1) Over the bye week Jones magically transforms from the ugly duckling into a beautiful swan. He averages 325 yards and 2+ TDs per game. But the Giants go 1-7.
2) The Giants go 4-3. Jones continues being Jones. He has 5 Regular Jones games plus 1-2 good games and 1-2 bad games.
I'm taking scenario 1 every time and it's not close. This season is done. We're probably going to be stuck with Jones as QB for a while no matter how he plays. Give me a guy who can light it up for next year. Without that we're basically reliant on outstanding red zone defense (which is not sustainable) and opponent mistakes to win games.
Except, going 1-7 isn't an unlikely scenario with this team. I'd be much more surprised if they churned out a 4-4 finish.
Jones putting up those numbers, and the "oh no" scenario you laid out with (aside from an 1-7 finish) is all the more unlikely. You saying to choose from the two is just beside the point.
If 4-13 it is... Who cares? Color me 0% shocked.
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In comment 15448632 Carl in CT said:
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With complete dog shit. What was he 9 for 10 in the first half with a throw away running for his life? He he did a 5 or 7 step drop we would be looking for a new QB right now. Some people don’t understand football..
Passer rating is overrated. I would ignore it. It's just math and doesn't look at the situations of the game.
Use QBR instead. It's not completely perfect - not stat is is - but it at least reflects the view of two analysts watching every play.
Jones's QBR was 48.3, which is a little below average in the NFL. So he didn't play great and he didn't play horribly. He just hovered around mediocrity.
You can't just pick and chose the metrics that you want, This is called cherry picking to make your case. Also you can't look at players in a vacuum. There are 21 other starters out there, 10 other on offense. That affects the QB's play (any QB). Your eyes, and stats, show everyone hoe deficient the surrounding cast that Jones has is right now. You can't compare this to Cleveland, KC, Dallas, etc., its not a fair comparison
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You just went from "hey, that's cherry-picking!" to cherry picking.
Successful QBs succeed sometimes, occasionally in spite of their supporting cast.
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With complete dog shit. What was he 9 for 10 in the first half with a throw away running for his life? He he did a 5 or 7 step drop we would be looking for a new QB right now. Some people don’t understand football..
Passer rating is overrated. I would ignore it. It's just math and doesn't look at the situations of the game.
Use QBR instead. It's not completely perfect - not stat is is - but it at least reflects the view of two analysts watching every play.
Jones's QBR was 48.3, which is a little below average in the NFL. So he didn't play great and he didn't play horribly. He just hovered around mediocrity.
If Carl spelled "the" correctly, we should just applaud and let it be.
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In comment 15448697 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15448632 Carl in CT said:
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With complete dog shit. What was he 9 for 10 in the first half with a throw away running for his life? He he did a 5 or 7 step drop we would be looking for a new QB right now. Some people don’t understand football..
Passer rating is overrated. I would ignore it. It's just math and doesn't look at the situations of the game.
Use QBR instead. It's not completely perfect - not stat is is - but it at least reflects the view of two analysts watching every play.
Jones's QBR was 48.3, which is a little below average in the NFL. So he didn't play great and he didn't play horribly. He just hovered around mediocrity.
You can't just pick and chose the metrics that you want, This is called cherry picking to make your case. Also you can't look at players in a vacuum. There are 21 other starters out there, 10 other on offense. That affects the QB's play (any QB). Your eyes, and stats, show everyone hoe deficient the surrounding cast that Jones has is right now. You can't compare this to Cleveland, KC, Dallas, etc., its not a fair comparison
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You just went from "hey, that's cherry-picking!" to cherry picking.
Successful QBs succeed sometimes, occasionally in spite of their supporting cast.
Yes thats right. Its also why we are 3-3 in our last 6, Jones is succeeding sometimes.
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In comment 15448729 PatersonPlank said:
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In comment 15448697 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15448632 Carl in CT said:
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With complete dog shit. What was he 9 for 10 in the first half with a throw away running for his life? He he did a 5 or 7 step drop we would be looking for a new QB right now. Some people don’t understand football..
Passer rating is overrated. I would ignore it. It's just math and doesn't look at the situations of the game.
Use QBR instead. It's not completely perfect - not stat is is - but it at least reflects the view of two analysts watching every play.
Jones's QBR was 48.3, which is a little below average in the NFL. So he didn't play great and he didn't play horribly. He just hovered around mediocrity.
You can't just pick and chose the metrics that you want, This is called cherry picking to make your case. Also you can't look at players in a vacuum. There are 21 other starters out there, 10 other on offense. That affects the QB's play (any QB). Your eyes, and stats, show everyone hoe deficient the surrounding cast that Jones has is right now. You can't compare this to Cleveland, KC, Dallas, etc., its not a fair comparison
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You just went from "hey, that's cherry-picking!" to cherry picking.
Successful QBs succeed sometimes, occasionally in spite of their supporting cast.
Yes thats right. Its also why we are 3-3 in our last 6, Jones is succeeding sometimes.
We made it all the way to .500 in 6 games? You must be changing your BVDs every half hour!
Loser.
@JordanRaanan
·
3h
This isn’t the week for this. I watched all the pass plays this morning. The Giants had no chance to just drop back and protect Daniel Jones against that Raiders front. None. As is, he was pressured on almost half his dropbacks, which is a crazy high number.
And if you watch the Bobby Skinnner cutup you will see that the Giants kept in additional help. Less than 2.5 seconds to move the ball with 6/7 on 4s all day long. They are completely scheming around a very difficult situation on the o-line.
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With complete dog shit. What was he 9 for 10 in the first half with a throw away running for his life? He he did a 5 or 7 step drop we would be looking for a new QB right now. Some people don’t understand football..
Passer rating is overrated. I would ignore it. It's just math and doesn't look at the situations of the game.
Use QBR instead. It's not completely perfect - not stat is is - but it at least reflects the view of two analysts watching every play.
Jones's QBR was 48.3, which is a little below average in the NFL. So he didn't play great and he didn't play horribly. He just hovered around mediocrity.
BBI likes no stats and no experts, makes it hard to debate anything. Even with cold hard facts, "What if" is a religion here.
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Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
·
3h
This isn’t the week for this. I watched all the pass plays this morning. The Giants had no chance to just drop back and protect Daniel Jones against that Raiders front. None. As is, he was pressured on almost half his dropbacks, which is a crazy high number.
And if you watch the Bobby Skinnner cutup you will see that the Giants kept in additional help. Less than 2.5 seconds to move the ball with 6/7 on 4s all day long. They are completely scheming around a very difficult situation on the o-line.
And scheming around a QB who coughs the ball up under pressure.
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Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
·
3h
This isn’t the week for this. I watched all the pass plays this morning. The Giants had no chance to just drop back and protect Daniel Jones against that Raiders front. None. As is, he was pressured on almost half his dropbacks, which is a crazy high number.
And if you watch the Bobby Skinnner cutup you will see that the Giants kept in additional help. Less than 2.5 seconds to move the ball with 6/7 on 4s all day long. They are completely scheming around a very difficult situation on the o-line.
That 2.5 seconds was 10th best in the day too
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In comment 15448632 Carl in CT said:
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With complete dog shit. What was he 9 for 10 in the first half with a throw away running for his life? He he did a 5 or 7 step drop we would be looking for a new QB right now. Some people don’t understand football..
Passer rating is overrated. I would ignore it. It's just math and doesn't look at the situations of the game.
Use QBR instead. It's not completely perfect - not stat is is - but it at least reflects the view of two analysts watching every play.
Jones's QBR was 48.3, which is a little below average in the NFL. So he didn't play great and he didn't play horribly. He just hovered around mediocrity.
I like QBR, too. I have found a couple of outlier QBs in a season or 2, but for the most part its gets it better than every other QB stat. The QBs you expect to rate higher, in fact do. I like AY/A as well because it translates to winning.
BBI likes no stats and no experts, makes it hard to debate anything. Even with cold hard facts, "What if" is a religion here.
But sometimes the stats used on here are more comedy than have any meaning.
For example, when this same QBR stat is cited as an example how Jones 1st 2 years have been superior to Carr's - all of a sudden those on here that blast Jones using these same very stats claim these stats are flawed and can't be used. Kind of funny how that works.
Passer rating is overrated. I would ignore it. It's just math and doesn't look at the situations of the game.
Use QBR instead. It's not completely perfect - not stat is is - but it at least reflects the view of two analysts watching every play.
Jones's QBR was 48.3, which is a little below average in the NFL. So he didn't play great and he didn't play horribly. He just hovered around mediocrity.
You can't just pick and chose the metrics that you want, This is called cherry picking to make your case. Also you can't look at players in a vacuum. There are 21 other starters out there, 10 other on offense. That affects the QB's play (any QB). Your eyes, and stats, show everyone hoe deficient the surrounding cast that Jones has is right now. You can't compare this to Cleveland, KC, Dallas, etc., its not a fair comparison
The QBR approach takes into account many variables - a QB's protection, QB's running yards, receiver's separation, down and distance, time in the game (to smooth out garbage time stats), accuracy, receiver's drops, etc.
Here is verbiage from the QBR team:
Context for each play includes the down, yards to go for a first down, distance to the end zone and time remaining in the half. All of these factors can be used before the ball is snapped to estimate the future net score advantage the team currently on offense can expect. This estimate is known as "expected points.” After the play, the change in those factors lead to a change (positive or negative) to the team’s net point advantage. That change in the expected points caused by the outcome of the play represents the play’s value, or its Expected Points Added (EPA), given all the context.
When a team fails to convert on third down, struggles in the red zone, takes a lot of sacks or turns the ball over, it generally registers as negative EPA for the offense. But not all turnovers are created equal: A Hail Mary interception at the end of the half is not as impactful as one in the middle of the second quarter –- and EPA knows that.
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In comment 15448735 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15448729 PatersonPlank said:
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In comment 15448697 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15448632 Carl in CT said:
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With complete dog shit. What was he 9 for 10 in the first half with a throw away running for his life? He he did a 5 or 7 step drop we would be looking for a new QB right now. Some people don’t understand football..
Passer rating is overrated. I would ignore it. It's just math and doesn't look at the situations of the game.
Use QBR instead. It's not completely perfect - not stat is is - but it at least reflects the view of two analysts watching every play.
Jones's QBR was 48.3, which is a little below average in the NFL. So he didn't play great and he didn't play horribly. He just hovered around mediocrity.
You can't just pick and chose the metrics that you want, This is called cherry picking to make your case. Also you can't look at players in a vacuum. There are 21 other starters out there, 10 other on offense. That affects the QB's play (any QB). Your eyes, and stats, show everyone hoe deficient the surrounding cast that Jones has is right now. You can't compare this to Cleveland, KC, Dallas, etc., its not a fair comparison
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You just went from "hey, that's cherry-picking!" to cherry picking.
Successful QBs succeed sometimes, occasionally in spite of their supporting cast.
Yes thats right. Its also why we are 3-3 in our last 6, Jones is succeeding sometimes.
We made it all the way to .500 in 6 games? You must be changing your BVDs every half hour!
Loser.
It s been my experience in life that those who cannot debate opposing points of views without name calling are often the real “losers”
BBI likes no stats and no experts, makes it hard to debate anything. Even with cold hard facts, "What if" is a religion here.
Indeed. YPA is very good, but AY/A is a more robust version of that...
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In comment 15448741 PatersonPlank said:
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In comment 15448735 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15448729 PatersonPlank said:
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In comment 15448697 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15448632 Carl in CT said:
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With complete dog shit. What was he 9 for 10 in the first half with a throw away running for his life? He he did a 5 or 7 step drop we would be looking for a new QB right now. Some people don’t understand football..
Passer rating is overrated. I would ignore it. It's just math and doesn't look at the situations of the game.
Use QBR instead. It's not completely perfect - not stat is is - but it at least reflects the view of two analysts watching every play.
Jones's QBR was 48.3, which is a little below average in the NFL. So he didn't play great and he didn't play horribly. He just hovered around mediocrity.
You can't just pick and chose the metrics that you want, This is called cherry picking to make your case. Also you can't look at players in a vacuum. There are 21 other starters out there, 10 other on offense. That affects the QB's play (any QB). Your eyes, and stats, show everyone hoe deficient the surrounding cast that Jones has is right now. You can't compare this to Cleveland, KC, Dallas, etc., its not a fair comparison
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You just went from "hey, that's cherry-picking!" to cherry picking.
Successful QBs succeed sometimes, occasionally in spite of their supporting cast.
Yes thats right. Its also why we are 3-3 in our last 6, Jones is succeeding sometimes.
We made it all the way to .500 in 6 games? You must be changing your BVDs every half hour!
Loser.
It s been my experience in life that those who cannot debate opposing points of views without name calling are often the real “losers”
Scroll up. I have debated with data all day, and have had my posts ignored.
His numbers are clearly subpar.
For many he also fails the eye test.
Many contend that his context is dragging him down. Nobody would deny this is true to some extent. But for those that make this claim, they say no QB could function or do well in Jones' circumstances. I think they have no cause to think or say that a great QB couldn't do much better than Jones.
Look at the Packers. yesterday they were virtually shutout.
I think it is a bold claim to say that Rodgers and other significantly more talented QBs than Jones, wouldn't have a better showing. It is a small probability that a better QB wouldn't improve our fortunes.
And there is an equal probability, though probably also small, that Jones is our entire problem. I know people don't want to hear it, but there is a chance if we replace Jones with a league average QB, like Cousins, the team performance will improve dramatically. I think it is probably unlikely, but we just don't know. We can't test it.
His numbers are clearly subpar.
For many he also fails the eye test.
Many contend that his context is dragging him down. Nobody would deny this is true to some extent. But for those that make this claim, they say no QB could function or do well in Jones' circumstances. I think they have no cause to think or say that a great QB couldn't do much better than Jones.
Look at the Packers. yesterday they were virtually shutout.
I think it is a bold claim to say that Rodgers and other significantly more talented QBs than Jones, wouldn't have a better showing. It is a small probability that a better QB wouldn't improve our fortunes.
And there is an equal probability, though probably also small, that Jones is our entire problem. I know people don't want to hear it, but there is a chance if we replace Jones with a league average QB, like Cousins, the team performance will improve dramatically. I think it is probably unlikely, but we just don't know. We can't test it.
SO if he isn't Rodgers then what? You still are building to win in other areas, right? Because Tannehill has showed you you can. Jimmy G who isn't that good has showed you he can. Philly won a SUper Bowl with a backup QB. SO if Giants get better non-QB players there is possibility he can win quite a bit, right?
While you are focused on those who stick up for Jones, maybe some of us have the issue with those that have completely closed their mind against Jones. It's possible the team would not dramatically improve with "Cousins" so for those that claim Jones is a backup - they don't know that either, right?
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on this team.
His numbers are clearly subpar.
For many he also fails the eye test.
Many contend that his context is dragging him down. Nobody would deny this is true to some extent. But for those that make this claim, they say no QB could function or do well in Jones' circumstances. I think they have no cause to think or say that a great QB couldn't do much better than Jones.
Look at the Packers. yesterday they were virtually shutout.
I think it is a bold claim to say that Rodgers and other significantly more talented QBs than Jones, wouldn't have a better showing. It is a small probability that a better QB wouldn't improve our fortunes.
And there is an equal probability, though probably also small, that Jones is our entire problem. I know people don't want to hear it, but there is a chance if we replace Jones with a league average QB, like Cousins, the team performance will improve dramatically. I think it is probably unlikely, but we just don't know. We can't test it.
SO if he isn't Rodgers then what? You still are building to win in other areas, right? Because Tannehill has showed you you can. Jimmy G who isn't that good has showed you he can. Philly won a SUper Bowl with a backup QB. SO if Giants get better non-QB players there is possibility he can win quite a bit, right?
While you are focused on those who stick up for Jones, maybe some of us have the issue with those that have completely closed their mind against Jones. It's possible the team would not dramatically improve with "Cousins" so for those that claim Jones is a backup - they don't know that either, right?
Even in Miami, Tannehill was better than Jones has ever been.
Jones's most ardent defenders, even when they think they're being "conservative" in their estimation of a comparison (because we know you'd all prefer to think he's the next Rodgers and think you're being generous by using Tannehill as the comp), overshoot.
Thus far, Jones is somewhere between Dilfer (game manager) and Mariota (running ability). Could he become more than that? Absolutely. But he hasn't demonstrated that yet.
I hope management has their eyes wide open about Jones and are considering all the options.
I have also said I don't fear a QB controversy, at all. I am open to keeping Jones on a favorable deal, even if we bring in a potential successor.
And to your question, of course we keep building the team. I don't think anybody is saying do nothing with this team until the QB spot is settled.
We beat Car and LV. We played KC surprisingly tough. We don’t look pretty but we’re nursing a lot of injuries and grinding it out.
Now, we’re not winning pretty enough.
DJ limited turnovers, we ran the ball. We were opportunistic on D. We let the other team make mistakes for a change. Just win.
A win is great and there's plenty of room for improvement and constructive criticism.
53
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How many of those yards were YAC?
53
Thanks GD. So half. Which is significant. But when I watch other teams play, I see guys making people miss and breaking tackles for big plays. I don't see that on this team a lot. I guess the argument could be made that Jones isn't putting his playmakers in a position to make plays, but I think that's hard to prove.
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over ten air yards. That is truly mind boggling. Vintage 1978. The coaching staff is so afraid of him. It's obvious.
Are you 13 years old, a Cowboys fan, or near blind?
Why would you say afraid of Jones? Why not say afraid of the OL against their pass rush? Did you not see the game? Jones was having to run for his life and move around practically every drop back. Do you honestly trust our OL against quality defenses?
So which one?
A child
Almost blind
Cowboys fan
I saw this as multiple choice.