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Joe Judge & Kevin Abrams

Sean : 11/9/2021 6:57 pm
I’d argue that these are the two most important voices in the franchise not named Mara. After the loss to the Rams, I was certain that the wheels would fall off and ownership would be forced into an outside hire general manager. Now, I think Abrams has a chance again. I always felt he has been groomed for this role since Gettleman was hired. I’m not saying this is good, I’d much prefer an outside voice, although I would not advocate firing Judge at this point.

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RE: Just calling for an outside voice doesn’t seem all that intelligent  
upnyg : 11/9/2021 11:14 pm : link
In comment 15450336 Chris684 said:
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of an argument. What about an outside voice are you really looking for?

Louis Riddick was an outside voice in 2018 who, in hindsight, basically gets you the same results as Gettleman except Collins is paid big money to stay here, Beckham stays and Haskins is taken over Jones. That sounds fun.

George Young to Accorsi was pretty seamless, as was Accorsi to Reese.

I know over on the Sam Beal thread there is a lot of revisiting a ship that has already sailed. Beal was a fuck up of 3 years ago now, lamenting that pick is pointless. He was a sunk cost.

Whatever the draft situation since Judge has come on board has been pretty good so far. Thomas, McKinney, Toney and Ojulari with premium picks the last 2 years with additional resources picked up in a big draft this year, and it’s interesting that I rarely hear the latter discussed around here, only the perceived FA struggle people feel we’re in for.

Whatever Gettleman’s actual role is at this point, Mara would be wise to suggest he retire (wink, wink) and let Judge proceed with who he’s comfortable with.

I agree with your points here. Overall I think gettleman has had average to good drafts. It could get better with DJ having a good year.

The problem, I think, is that people dont like Gettleman's style/personality...whatever. Hes made mistakes, but I think most of the coaching ones are on the Maras not Gettleman.

But whatever...lets go hire anybody from the outside.
RE: RE: Just calling for an outside voice doesn’t seem all that intelligent  
Jimmy Googs : 11/9/2021 11:17 pm : link
In comment 15450479 upnyg said:
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In comment 15450336 Chris684 said:


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of an argument. What about an outside voice are you really looking for?

Louis Riddick was an outside voice in 2018 who, in hindsight, basically gets you the same results as Gettleman except Collins is paid big money to stay here, Beckham stays and Haskins is taken over Jones. That sounds fun.

George Young to Accorsi was pretty seamless, as was Accorsi to Reese.

I know over on the Sam Beal thread there is a lot of revisiting a ship that has already sailed. Beal was a fuck up of 3 years ago now, lamenting that pick is pointless. He was a sunk cost.

Whatever the draft situation since Judge has come on board has been pretty good so far. Thomas, McKinney, Toney and Ojulari with premium picks the last 2 years with additional resources picked up in a big draft this year, and it’s interesting that I rarely hear the latter discussed around here, only the perceived FA struggle people feel we’re in for.

Whatever Gettleman’s actual role is at this point, Mara would be wise to suggest he retire (wink, wink) and let Judge proceed with who he’s comfortable with.


I agree with your points here. Overall I think gettleman has had average to good drafts. It could get better with DJ having a good year.

The problem, I think, is that people dont like Gettleman's style/personality...whatever. Hes made mistakes, but I think most of the coaching ones are on the Maras not Gettleman.

But whatever...lets go hire anybody from the outside.


You two should get a room...
 
ryanmkeane : 11/9/2021 11:41 pm : link
Kevin Abrams could be a great GM. Could be terrible. He’s got about as good of a chance as anyone else outside the organization to succeed. Anyone who thinks otherwise just hates Mara and everything the Giants are right now and isn’t thinking clearly.

Draft good players, get the QB and coach right. I think for all of Gettleman’s faults, we likely have our QB and coach in the building right now. Time to start finding better players. And Abrams vs whoever the hell - it really isn’t anything other than a 50/50 coin flip.
 
ryanmkeane : 11/9/2021 11:44 pm : link
O’Brien gets talked about a lot here as some better version or better option than Abrams. Why? Because he came from another organization? He worked in player personnel for the Lions for 5 years, and they were mostly terrible.

Now - that doesn’t have anything to do with O’Brien’s prospects to become a good GM. But it certainly doesn’t make him a better candidate than Abrams.
Abrams may make a great GM for all I know  
UberAlias : 11/9/2021 11:48 pm : link
But the problem is, he would reflect a notion that the organization itself is on sound footing, a judgement with this many years of futility I find hard to believe. And our recent history is marred with inability to see things for what they are.
RE: …  
Saos1n : 11/9/2021 11:48 pm : link
In comment 15450488 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
Kevin Abrams could be a great GM. Could be terrible. He’s got about as good of a chance as anyone else outside the organization to succeed. Anyone who thinks otherwise just hates Mara and everything the Giants are right now and isn’t thinking clearly.

Draft good players, get the QB and coach right. I think for all of Gettleman’s faults, we likely have our QB and coach in the building right now. Time to start finding better players. And Abrams vs whoever the hell - it really isn’t anything other than a 50/50 coin flip.


It’s wrong for any fan to doubt promoting within the building, with our same old school ideology, after a decade of garbage play isn’t the way to go? Really? I think anyone who can witness what we have since 2011 and think, ‘these guys can get it right’ isn’t thinking clearly. Must just be me.

Likely having our QB and HC is debatable. Don’t feel like going down that avenue tonight. God knows, it’s been ongoing since the two were brought in.
RE: Abrams may make a great GM for all I know  
Saos1n : 11/9/2021 11:49 pm : link
In comment 15450491 UberAlias said:
Quote:
But the problem is, he would reflect a notion that the organization itself is on sound footing, a judgement with this many years of futility I find hard to believe. And our recent history is marred with inability to see things for what they are.


Spot on
 
ryanmkeane : 11/10/2021 12:03 am : link
I also caution people who think the season is over and sweeping changes are somehow already on the horizon. They have 8 games left and have beaten two teams recently that everyone was saying were good teams, and nearly pulled off an upset in Kansas City with a starting roster on offense full of backups.

We are closer than everyone is leading on.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Why are we filing Tae Crowder as evidence of  
Chris684 : 11/10/2021 12:07 am : link
In comment 15450467 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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Excellence?



If you don’t already know that it’s an excellent result to have a player who was literally picked last in his draft class step into a starting role on a defense that’s been very good over the past 1.5 seasons then maybe you just don’t understand how the draft works.



Who did he have to beat out to "step in" to that role? Reggie Ragland? He's starting, sure. On a team with serious personnel issues and lack of depth. And no one thinks Tae Crowder is the reason the defense plays well. This defense goes the way the secondary and the DL go.



Reggie Ragland wasn’t even on the roster last year. No one is saying he’s Ray Lewis but just because he didn’t unseat some great player doesn’t mean that he himself isn’t a good, useful LB in a good defense. Again, the guy was Mr. Irrelevant. I’m surprised there are people here who would debate the fact that he was a good pick, but then again, I’m not.



Your argument is that he has a starting job so that must mean he's good. It's silly, so please don't play that "I'm surrounded by idiots" line. Ximines and Carter were also "starting" on the same defense. We changing tune on them being "good, useful players" too by this same logic?

Teams with personnel issues often do start guys for lack of better options and we all are aware that the Giants haven't set the world on fire with starting quality LB. It's been a revolving door at the position for two decades.


You seem to be narrowly focused on this year and overlooking that he entered the starting lineup last year. And no, by the time the defense was playing really well last season neither Carter nor Ximines were starting because they were both hurt.

Stupid to go down this road specifically on Crowder though because I never meant to tout him specifically as a player better than what he is but rather point out that the return on our investment of drafting him last in the entire draft is pretty damn good so far and part of a larger trend of excellent drafting the last 2 years.

The players picked, plus the accumulation of future picks for this year was really well done. Is it not great to have Toney plus an extra #1? Was it not great grabbing Ojulari in the 2nd when some were speculating he was a target in the 1st? It’s ok to admit that good things are still taking place every once in awhile in the Meadowlands, it won’t kill you.
 
christian : 11/10/2021 1:39 am : link
The Giants have expended large concentrations of money in UFA and have had 14 top 100 picks the last four years. Of course they’ve added a handful of good players.

Come this offseason, look at the number of starters who are UFA, need to be upgraded, and the resources they have.

Like last year, I predict it’ll be one step forward, one step back. And the Giants, if healthy will hover around 7-10, 8-9.

what if Judge wants Jones as his QB  
BigBlueCane : 11/10/2021 5:25 am : link
and Abrams as his GM?

Does that explode the narrative or no?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Why are we filing Tae Crowder as evidence of  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/10/2021 8:49 am : link
In comment 15450500 Chris684 said:
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Excellence?



If you don’t already know that it’s an excellent result to have a player who was literally picked last in his draft class step into a starting role on a defense that’s been very good over the past 1.5 seasons then maybe you just don’t understand how the draft works.



Who did he have to beat out to "step in" to that role? Reggie Ragland? He's starting, sure. On a team with serious personnel issues and lack of depth. And no one thinks Tae Crowder is the reason the defense plays well. This defense goes the way the secondary and the DL go.



Reggie Ragland wasn’t even on the roster last year. No one is saying he’s Ray Lewis but just because he didn’t unseat some great player doesn’t mean that he himself isn’t a good, useful LB in a good defense. Again, the guy was Mr. Irrelevant. I’m surprised there are people here who would debate the fact that he was a good pick, but then again, I’m not.



Your argument is that he has a starting job so that must mean he's good. It's silly, so please don't play that "I'm surrounded by idiots" line. Ximines and Carter were also "starting" on the same defense. We changing tune on them being "good, useful players" too by this same logic?

Teams with personnel issues often do start guys for lack of better options and we all are aware that the Giants haven't set the world on fire with starting quality LB. It's been a revolving door at the position for two decades.




You seem to be narrowly focused on this year and overlooking that he entered the starting lineup last year. And no, by the time the defense was playing really well last season neither Carter nor Ximines were starting because they were both hurt.

Stupid to go down this road specifically on Crowder though because I never meant to tout him specifically as a player better than what he is but rather point out that the return on our investment of drafting him last in the entire draft is pretty damn good so far and part of a larger trend of excellent drafting the last 2 years.

The players picked, plus the accumulation of future picks for this year was really well done. Is it not great to have Toney plus an extra #1? Was it not great grabbing Ojulari in the 2nd when some were speculating he was a target in the 1st? It’s ok to admit that good things are still taking place every once in awhile in the Meadowlands, it won’t kill you.



You can frame anything positively if you do it the way you have. All I said was Crowder is a bad example to use of arguing that the drafting has been "excellent" and you've chosen to defend the point. He's a backup type of LB pressed to start because the Giants are positionally weak.

We already covered 2 other examples in this exchange. Ximines and Carter are do-nothing players who were placed as starters because they didn't have better options. They were given a chance to show something and the clock ran out. You can keep giving them snaps. It doesn't mean they were good selections. Not sure how many teams in the NFL Ximines, Carter, or Crowder would actually start for.

.....  
BrettNYG10 : 11/10/2021 8:51 am : link
The Giants have had poor scouting for about a decade now. Abrams' background is in the cap, although it sounds like he is focusing more on personnel recently.

I think the Giants scouting systems are probably broken and outdated. An outside voice from a leading organization (Ravens/Steelers/Chiefs) can bring the proper structure in place.

Promoting Abrams would be a terrible move. I do think there can be rock stars in bad organizations. But it seems unlikely.

It's been over 40 years since we've hired a GM outside the organization - it's resulted in four Super Bowls and been largely successful. But it's failed miserably for the past decade - a period of time when the game has undergone significant changes.

I don't think I'd watch next season if they promote Abrams.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Why are we filing Tae Crowder as evidence of  
Chris684 : 11/10/2021 9:00 am : link
In comment 15450603 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 15450467 Ten Ton Hammer said:


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In comment 15450383 Ten Ton Hammer said:


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Excellence?



If you don’t already know that it’s an excellent result to have a player who was literally picked last in his draft class step into a starting role on a defense that’s been very good over the past 1.5 seasons then maybe you just don’t understand how the draft works.



Who did he have to beat out to "step in" to that role? Reggie Ragland? He's starting, sure. On a team with serious personnel issues and lack of depth. And no one thinks Tae Crowder is the reason the defense plays well. This defense goes the way the secondary and the DL go.



Reggie Ragland wasn’t even on the roster last year. No one is saying he’s Ray Lewis but just because he didn’t unseat some great player doesn’t mean that he himself isn’t a good, useful LB in a good defense. Again, the guy was Mr. Irrelevant. I’m surprised there are people here who would debate the fact that he was a good pick, but then again, I’m not.



Your argument is that he has a starting job so that must mean he's good. It's silly, so please don't play that "I'm surrounded by idiots" line. Ximines and Carter were also "starting" on the same defense. We changing tune on them being "good, useful players" too by this same logic?

Teams with personnel issues often do start guys for lack of better options and we all are aware that the Giants haven't set the world on fire with starting quality LB. It's been a revolving door at the position for two decades.




You seem to be narrowly focused on this year and overlooking that he entered the starting lineup last year. And no, by the time the defense was playing really well last season neither Carter nor Ximines were starting because they were both hurt.

Stupid to go down this road specifically on Crowder though because I never meant to tout him specifically as a player better than what he is but rather point out that the return on our investment of drafting him last in the entire draft is pretty damn good so far and part of a larger trend of excellent drafting the last 2 years.

The players picked, plus the accumulation of future picks for this year was really well done. Is it not great to have Toney plus an extra #1? Was it not great grabbing Ojulari in the 2nd when some were speculating he was a target in the 1st? It’s ok to admit that good things are still taking place every once in awhile in the Meadowlands, it won’t kill you.




You can frame anything positively if you do it the way you have. All I said was Crowder is a bad example to use of arguing that the drafting has been "excellent" and you've chosen to defend the point. He's a backup type of LB pressed to start because the Giants are positionally weak.

We already covered 2 other examples in this exchange. Ximines and Carter are do-nothing players who were placed as starters because they didn't have better options. They were given a chance to show something and the clock ran out. You can keep giving them snaps. It doesn't mean they were good selections. Not sure how many teams in the NFL Ximines, Carter, or Crowder would actually start for.


You're missing the fact that the Giants defense has generally been very good with Tae Crowder starting at one of the MLB spots. Sure he has weaknesses but he's also made some plays. A useful, starting MLB on a good defense is a very good outcome for a "Mr. Irrelevant" selection. Not many talent scouts are going to disagree with that.
The Giants organization is broken  
cosmicj : 11/10/2021 9:04 am : link
Gettleman is a bad GM but he’s being dragged down by a bad situation.

That’s why promoting an internal candidate like Abrams is a bad idea.
There are so many wrongheaded, downright dumb posts  
cosmicj : 11/10/2021 9:06 am : link
On this thread it makes me exhausted to think of replying to all of them.

So let me ask a simple question: how can anyone praise the management of a team with a maxed out cap and a string of recent high draft picks that is 3-6?
cosmic  
ryanmkeane : 11/10/2021 9:27 am : link
if the Giants are so bad, how did they just beat the 5-2 Raiders without us having the ability to throw the ball? How did we nearly beat the Chiefs without an OL or playmakers?

You guys keep saying the Giants are a horrible team. That is not actually true the last 3 weeks.
...  
ryanmkeane : 11/10/2021 9:27 am : link
when nearly all of your offensive players are injured, it has an impact on whether you win or lose.
I vote for whatever will piss off the ‘BBI squad’ the most.  
Spider56 : 11/10/2021 9:36 am : link
The Giants are the Maras and the Maras are the Giants.
Ryan  
cosmicj : 11/10/2021 9:58 am : link
That “not horrible” standard is too low given the draft and cap resources expended on the Giants.

Don’t you agree that the Giants face an organizational problem? For me, everything points to it.
RE: RE: Starters on this roster doesn't mean good  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/10/2021 10:05 am : link
In comment 15450375 Chris684 said:
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In comment 15450367 Go Terps said:


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We've seen Thomas play well in how many games? And Toney seems, to be kind, like a moron who's going to be a problem at some point or another. They're also two more high draft picks on an offense full of high draft picks - and the offense is still a joke.

Two players that were on this team in 2017 are still here in 2021. I expect similar turnover these next two to four years. I don't see building blocks here. Thomas has the best shot, but I'm not counting on anyone else.




So admittedly you like Thomas. The worst you can say about Toney is you think he might be a jerk because he tweets. Ojulari is leading all rookies in sacks but you don’t think he’s a building block and I guess not sure what you think of McKinney but don’t like him that much either.

Toney is going to create a lot of posts that a lot of you are going to wish you had back, there's very little doubt about that.

On the plus side, we're probably looking at a Terrell Owens clone.

On the minus side, we're probably looking at an OBJ clone.

But we're almost definitely NOT looking at a Hines Ward clone.
RE: cosmic  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/10/2021 10:08 am : link
In comment 15450633 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
if the Giants are so bad, how did they just beat the 5-2 Raiders without us having the ability to throw the ball? How did we nearly beat the Chiefs without an OL or playmakers?

You guys keep saying the Giants are a horrible team. That is not actually true the last 3 weeks.

On any given Sunday...

And somehow you'll sign up for that every time. It's basically like when you cross the street when the DON'T WALK sign is flashing... you are dumb enough to believe that you'll NEVER get run over if you do the same thing every time.

And that's probably right.



You are dumb enough to believe that.
RE: what if Judge wants Jones as his QB  
Go Terps : 11/10/2021 10:33 am : link
In comment 15450517 BigBlueCane said:
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and Abrams as his GM?

Does that explode the narrative or no?


Why would he?
RE: cosmic  
bw in dc : 11/10/2021 12:04 pm : link
In comment 15450633 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
if the Giants are so bad, how did they just beat the 5-2 Raiders without us having the ability to throw the ball? How did we nearly beat the Chiefs without an OL or playmakers?

You guys keep saying the Giants are a horrible team. That is not actually true the last 3 weeks.


The Giants are an average to below average team. So on any given Sunday we can certainly compete and win. But we aren't good enough - yet - to be counted on to win.

Additionally, there aren't ANY great team in the NFL right now. The competitive balance is more spread out than ever, so the "any given Sunday" opportunity is greater than ever...

Can Abrams make an honest and objective evaluation  
UberAlias : 11/10/2021 12:33 pm : link
Of Daniel Jones? He was part of a front office who drafted him and who dug their feet in in the face of criticism on draft day. You want to stick with Daniel Jones --fine. Now what level do you value his contract? Because if we overpay him because we've overestimated his talent --something this organization has gotten burned with sentiment in the past, we are going to create barriers to success. You can win with Jones, but you can't pay him like you will win because of him. Is Abrams capable of that sort of honest self evaluation?
Uber  
Go Terps : 11/10/2021 12:39 pm : link
Based on his production any second contract, or even picking up the fifth year option, is overpaying for Jones.

You can't pay a bottom of the league producer at quarterback based on excuses, and the excuses are the only case in his favor.

We could have started this season with Glennon and we'd probably be right where were at: 3-6 scoring 19 PPG.
And as for Abrams being objective,  
Go Terps : 11/10/2021 12:41 pm : link
that would be an important and nerve wracking question. With the Giants' mess of a front office it's difficult to know who is responsible for what.
RE: cosmic  
Thegratefulhead : 11/10/2021 12:45 pm : link
In comment 15450633 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
if the Giants are so bad, how did they just beat the 5-2 Raiders without us having the ability to throw the ball? How did we nearly beat the Chiefs without an OL or playmakers?

You guys keep saying the Giants are a horrible team. That is not actually true the last 3 weeks.
Talk about being a prisoner of the moment.

The last 3 weeks is the amount of data you want to use?

Did you know that 3 and fucking 6 is the best 9 game record this team has had since 2017?

Let that marinate and sink the fuck in Ryan.

So forgive us, when we don't jump on your 2 and 1 bandwagon in the middle of a 3-6 season.

For fuck's sake.



RE: RE: RE: Starters on this roster doesn't mean good  
ron mexico : 11/10/2021 12:59 pm : link
In comment 15450661 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15450375 Chris684 said:


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In comment 15450367 Go Terps said:


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We've seen Thomas play well in how many games? And Toney seems, to be kind, like a moron who's going to be a problem at some point or another. They're also two more high draft picks on an offense full of high draft picks - and the offense is still a joke.

Two players that were on this team in 2017 are still here in 2021. I expect similar turnover these next two to four years. I don't see building blocks here. Thomas has the best shot, but I'm not counting on anyone else.




So admittedly you like Thomas. The worst you can say about Toney is you think he might be a jerk because he tweets. Ojulari is leading all rookies in sacks but you don’t think he’s a building block and I guess not sure what you think of McKinney but don’t like him that much either.


Toney is going to create a lot of posts that a lot of you are going to wish you had back, there's very little doubt about that.

On the plus side, we're probably looking at a Terrell Owens clone.

On the minus side, we're probably looking at an OBJ clone.

But we're almost definitely NOT looking at a Hines Ward clone.


there is no way Toney gets anywhere near TO level of production and dominance
Kevin Abrams V. The World  
clatterbuck : 11/10/2021 1:41 pm : link
Does anyone have any real information on why Abrams would be a lousy choice other than he's already in the building? Can anyone discuss strengths/weaknesses relative to other names that have been mentioned? Does anyone know what role he currently plays other than cap strategist, especially in relation to player evaluation? Has anyone seen, heard, read asshat info on how Abrams is thought of around the league? Can anyone detail action, decisions he's responsible for that would disqualify him as a candidate?

I, of course, don't have a clue whether he should be considered, or is even a viable candidate to replace Gettleman. But there are probably examples of someone who worked in a subordinate role in losing organizations who achieved success when given a shot at a top, GM-type job, just as there are probably examples of those coming from winning programs who've failed. Again, I'm not trying to bury Abrams or praise him. Maybe there's already a book on him one way or another, but none of us has been privy to it.
RE: Kevin Abrams V. The World  
Thegratefulhead : 11/10/2021 1:48 pm : link
In comment 15450829 clatterbuck said:
Quote:
Does anyone have any real information on why Abrams would be a lousy choice other than he's already in the building? Can anyone discuss strengths/weaknesses relative to other names that have been mentioned? Does anyone know what role he currently plays other than cap strategist, especially in relation to player evaluation? Has anyone seen, heard, read asshat info on how Abrams is thought of around the league? Can anyone detail action, decisions he's responsible for that would disqualify him as a candidate?

I, of course, don't have a clue whether he should be considered, or is even a viable candidate to replace Gettleman. But there are probably examples of someone who worked in a subordinate role in losing organizations who achieved success when given a shot at a top, GM-type job, just as there are probably examples of those coming from winning programs who've failed. Again, I'm not trying to bury Abrams or praise him. Maybe there's already a book on him one way or another, but none of us has been privy to it.
It is the fact that he is here. 3-6 represents the best 9 game record of this team since 2017. We need someone from outside the organization to look at everything we do with fresh eyes. Abrams cannot do that, I don't trust him to be critical enough because he took part in some of the decisions that have put us in this mess.
RE: Kevin Abrams V. The World  
Chris684 : 11/10/2021 1:58 pm : link
In comment 15450829 clatterbuck said:
Quote:
Does anyone have any real information on why Abrams would be a lousy choice other than he's already in the building? Can anyone discuss strengths/weaknesses relative to other names that have been mentioned? Does anyone know what role he currently plays other than cap strategist, especially in relation to player evaluation? Has anyone seen, heard, read asshat info on how Abrams is thought of around the league? Can anyone detail action, decisions he's responsible for that would disqualify him as a candidate?

I, of course, don't have a clue whether he should be considered, or is even a viable candidate to replace Gettleman. But there are probably examples of someone who worked in a subordinate role in losing organizations who achieved success when given a shot at a top, GM-type job, just as there are probably examples of those coming from winning programs who've failed. Again, I'm not trying to bury Abrams or praise him. Maybe there's already a book on him one way or another, but none of us has been privy to it.


Solid post. Don't expect it to gain much traction around here though.

In fact, in the last 3 GM transitions there have been 2 decisions hire internally from Young to Accorsi and Accorsi to Reese. Both of which were huge successes.



RE: Uber  
UberAlias : 11/10/2021 1:59 pm : link
In comment 15450782 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Based on his production any second contract, or even picking up the fifth year option, is overpaying for Jones.

You can't pay a bottom of the league producer at quarterback based on excuses, and the excuses are the only case in his favor.

We could have started this season with Glennon and we'd probably be right where were at: 3-6 scoring 19 PPG.
Perhaps. At the same time with the injuries to Olne and WRs there is a good chance we'd be in similar spot with a 3rd year Eli as our QB as well. And we had a future with two super bowls for him.
RE: Side note: I love how Ernie Accorsi is mocked on a NYG fan board  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/10/2021 2:02 pm : link
In comment 15450341 Chris684 said:
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That makes a lot of sense for a guy who hand delivered one of the franchise’s greatest players and ambassadors and was the chief architect of 3 Super Bowl teams and 2 that won it.

If Accorsi was the chief architect for our SB teams, you're acknowledging that DG was along for the ride for Carolina's SB team, right?
RE: RE: RE: Just calling for an outside voice doesn’t seem all that intelligent  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/10/2021 2:04 pm : link
In comment 15450349 Chris684 said:
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In comment 15450347 Mdgiantsfan said:


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In comment 15450336 Chris684 said:


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of an argument. What about an outside voice are you really looking for?

Louis Riddick was an outside voice in 2018 who, in hindsight, basically gets you the same results as Gettleman except Collins is paid big money to stay here, Beckham stays and Haskins is taken over Jones. That sounds fun.

George Young to Accorsi was pretty seamless, as was Accorsi to Reese.

I know over on the Sam Beal thread there is a lot of revisiting a ship that has already sailed. Beal was a fuck up of 3 years ago now, lamenting that pick is pointless. He was a sunk cost.

Whatever the draft situation since Judge has come on board has been pretty good so far. Thomas, McKinney, Toney and Ojulari with premium picks the last 2 years with additional resources picked up in a big draft this year, and it’s interesting that I rarely hear the latter discussed around here, only the perceived FA struggle people feel we’re in for.

Whatever Gettleman’s actual role is at this point, Mara would be wise to suggest he retire (wink, wink) and let Judge proceed with who he’s comfortable with.



So what's the argument for the inside voices? Heck with those voices you at least have some semblance of a track record, and the past 10 years have been miserable.



The argument for it is exactly what I stated above. If you look at the last 2 drafts, and I would also say FA periods with Bradberry, Martinez, Booker, etc., whatever was failing them has gotten much better since Judge’s arrival.

When does the winning percentage begin to improve?
RE: RE: Kevin Abrams V. The World  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/10/2021 2:06 pm : link
In comment 15450840 Chris684 said:
Quote:
In comment 15450829 clatterbuck said:


Quote:


Does anyone have any real information on why Abrams would be a lousy choice other than he's already in the building? Can anyone discuss strengths/weaknesses relative to other names that have been mentioned? Does anyone know what role he currently plays other than cap strategist, especially in relation to player evaluation? Has anyone seen, heard, read asshat info on how Abrams is thought of around the league? Can anyone detail action, decisions he's responsible for that would disqualify him as a candidate?

I, of course, don't have a clue whether he should be considered, or is even a viable candidate to replace Gettleman. But there are probably examples of someone who worked in a subordinate role in losing organizations who achieved success when given a shot at a top, GM-type job, just as there are probably examples of those coming from winning programs who've failed. Again, I'm not trying to bury Abrams or praise him. Maybe there's already a book on him one way or another, but none of us has been privy to it.



Solid post. Don't expect it to gain much traction around here though.

In fact, in the last 3 GM transitions there have been 2 decisions hire internally from Young to Accorsi and Accorsi to Reese. Both of which were huge successes.



Tell us about the third internal decision, Chris.

And was Accorsi to Reese a huge success? You said earlier in this thread that Accorsi was the chief architect of BOTH of the most recent SB teams. So what was Reese's role?
RE: Kevin Abrams V. The World  
BrettNYG10 : 11/10/2021 2:19 pm : link
In comment 15450829 clatterbuck said:
Quote:
Does anyone have any real information on why Abrams would be a lousy choice other than he's already in the building? Can anyone discuss strengths/weaknesses relative to other names that have been mentioned? Does anyone know what role he currently plays other than cap strategist, especially in relation to player evaluation? Has anyone seen, heard, read asshat info on how Abrams is thought of around the league? Can anyone detail action, decisions he's responsible for that would disqualify him as a candidate?

I, of course, don't have a clue whether he should be considered, or is even a viable candidate to replace Gettleman. But there are probably examples of someone who worked in a subordinate role in losing organizations who achieved success when given a shot at a top, GM-type job, just as there are probably examples of those coming from winning programs who've failed. Again, I'm not trying to bury Abrams or praise him. Maybe there's already a book on him one way or another, but none of us has been privy to it.


I touched on this above - Abrams came up as a cap guy, not a personnel one. The Giants biggest flaws have been in scouting and overrating their own team. He recently moved towards covering personnel according to comments he made on a recent podcast. Have the personnel moves been that good of late that we should reward someone internally for making them? There are a few I like but nothing I love.

The Giants have sucked for a decade. Do they even have modern scouting systems in place? Have they properly adjusted for the changes in the game the past decade? Can they do a proper analysis of the internal organization to assess whether people are doing a good job or not?

Is it possible Abrams is a rockstar in waiting? Sure, but we're ten years into everything associated with the Giants organization being dog shit, so I think it's a higher probability that someone with an outside view properly addresses internal issues.

Abrams is not a mere bystander to recent results. He's been the assistant GM. Do you think it's likely he advocated rather drafting Nelson/Jackson/Allen in 2018, or holding off on a QB in 2019 to draft Herbert in 2020? I don't.

The base rate of GM failures is high. I think hiring someone who has been part of one of the worst organizations since 2012 is just mind-boggling. Nobody is advocating poaching a Jets AGM.
RE: Kevin Abrams V. The World  
Jimmy Googs : 11/10/2021 2:19 pm : link
In comment 15450829 clatterbuck said:
Quote:
Does anyone have any real information on why Abrams would be a lousy choice other than he's already in the building? Can anyone discuss strengths/weaknesses relative to other names that have been mentioned? Does anyone know what role he currently plays other than cap strategist, especially in relation to player evaluation? Has anyone seen, heard, read asshat info on how Abrams is thought of around the league? Can anyone detail action, decisions he's responsible for that would disqualify him as a candidate?



I think until recently, most on the outside looked at Abrams as basically just the salary cap/contract guy.

The good news is we learned that Abrams actually spends a great deal more of his time in recent years on player evaluation & acquisition.

The bad news is we learned Abrams actually spends his time on player evaluation & acquisition...
RE: RE: Uber  
UberAlias : 11/10/2021 2:27 pm : link
In comment 15450842 UberAlias said:
Quote:
In comment 15450782 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Based on his production any second contract, or even picking up the fifth year option, is overpaying for Jones.

You can't pay a bottom of the league producer at quarterback based on excuses, and the excuses are the only case in his favor.

We could have started this season with Glennon and we'd probably be right where were at: 3-6 scoring 19 PPG.

Perhaps. At the same time with the injuries to Olne and WRs there is a good chance we'd be in similar spot with a 3rd year Eli as our QB as well. And we had a future with two super bowls for him.


Terps --I'm not saying you are wrong. I just don't believe it is as simple as you see it, which is why we need an objective and honest decision maker.

Here was Eli's production in year 3:
3,494 total yards 20 total TDs 13 total INTs 80.4 rating

Here is Jones production on the season to date projected onto16 games:
4,119 total yards 18 total TDs 9 total INTs 87 rating
RE: RE: RE: Kevin Abrams V. The World  
Chris684 : 11/10/2021 2:28 pm : link
In comment 15450850 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15450840 Chris684 said:


Quote:


In comment 15450829 clatterbuck said:


Quote:


Does anyone have any real information on why Abrams would be a lousy choice other than he's already in the building? Can anyone discuss strengths/weaknesses relative to other names that have been mentioned? Does anyone know what role he currently plays other than cap strategist, especially in relation to player evaluation? Has anyone seen, heard, read asshat info on how Abrams is thought of around the league? Can anyone detail action, decisions he's responsible for that would disqualify him as a candidate?

I, of course, don't have a clue whether he should be considered, or is even a viable candidate to replace Gettleman. But there are probably examples of someone who worked in a subordinate role in losing organizations who achieved success when given a shot at a top, GM-type job, just as there are probably examples of those coming from winning programs who've failed. Again, I'm not trying to bury Abrams or praise him. Maybe there's already a book on him one way or another, but none of us has been privy to it.



Solid post. Don't expect it to gain much traction around here though.

In fact, in the last 3 GM transitions there have been 2 decisions hire internally from Young to Accorsi and Accorsi to Reese. Both of which were huge successes.





Tell us about the third internal decision, Chris.

And was Accorsi to Reese a huge success? You said earlier in this thread that Accorsi was the chief architect of BOTH of the most recent SB teams. So what was Reese's role?


Sifting through all of my prior posts shotgun style I see!

First off, the compliment I paid to Accorsi doesn't take away from what Reese did. However, there's no denying who built the foundation for the 2007-2011 teams. Accorsi built out the core of those teams (Eli, Snee, Diehl, Osi, Tuck, Kiwi, CWeb, Jacobs, KMac) while Reese did an excellent job supplementing the talent with the likes of Rolle, JPP, Nicks, Bradshaw, Steve Smith, etc. Anyway, call Gettleman's tenure in Carolina whatever you want, that's not my point. I'm not married to what Gettleman has done here which is an overall bad job which I've said plenty of times.

Second, the winning % is starting to improve. I think you'll see that play out as this season carries on.

Lastly, are you sure Gettleman was the inside candidate in 2017? What would that have made Marc Ross who interviewed for the job first? I addressed your question on Reese above.



....  
BrettNYG10 : 11/10/2021 2:58 pm : link
Ross was known to be lazy and the drafting sucked. There was no way he was going to get hired.
as always  
BigBlueCane : 11/10/2021 3:42 pm : link
Terps,

what if Judge disagrees with you and wants Jones to be his QB and/or Abrams to be his GM.

RE: as always  
Go Terps : 11/10/2021 3:44 pm : link
In comment 15450902 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
Terps,

what if Judge disagrees with you and wants Jones to be his QB and/or Abrams to be his GM.


Then he isn't as bright as he comes off.

Again, why would he want those things?
I don’t think Judge would be as concerned with Abrams..  
Sean : 11/10/2021 3:55 pm : link
as he is Jones. Ultimately the GM just supports the coach anyway. So whoever the GM is will need to share the philosophy on:

1. Cap management
2. Managing the draft (trading down for example)
3. Personnel

Why would Judge want an outside GM with no ties to him. Then he’s immediately on the clock. I’d assume he’d prefer Abrams over that scenario. It’ll be interesting to see if he tries to influence Mara to look at Ossenfort, Dimitroff or Pioli (all Patriot ties).
RE: RE: RE: Uber  
Section331 : 11/10/2021 4:01 pm : link
In comment 15450866 UberAlias said:
Quote:


Here was Eli's production in year 3:
3,494 total yards 20 total TDs 13 total INTs 80.4 rating

Here is Jones production on the season to date projected onto16 games:
4,119 total yards 18 total TDs 9 total INTs 87 rating


I think you're looking at year 4 for Eli, he had 24 TD's in year 3, which ranked him 6th in the NFL. It's a different league now. Last year, that would have tied for 17th. Even in 2007, when he had 20 TD's, he was 11th in the league.

16 TD passes in a 17-game season simply isn't going to cut it. Last year, that would have ranked 23rd, tied with Gardner Minshew (who only played 8 games) and the immortal Mitch Trubisky.
RE: RE: as always  
Angel Eyes : 11/10/2021 4:06 pm : link
In comment 15450903 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15450902 BigBlueCane said:


Quote:


Terps,

what if Judge disagrees with you and wants Jones to be his QB and/or Abrams to be his GM.




Then he isn't as bright as he comes off.

Again, why would he want those things?

So your entire opinion on Judge as a head coach hinges on whether or not he has Jones as the quarterback. You do know that a lot of things in a football game are outside of the quarterback's control, right?
Crowder could be a good OLB pass rushing  
Ike#88 : 11/10/2021 8:30 pm : link
weapon but for now we need him at MLB. Crush Brady!
The good ol black box theory and ELi thing again  
Debaser : 11/11/2021 11:43 am : link
Never mind the fact he showed you more clutch plays, game winning 4th Qtr drives, a QB who can acutally audible, call plays, read defenses, pick up blitzes, go through more than one read etc. He wa also playing at a time when Tiki barber was still the leader and arguably best player on this team on a running team. he also played on a good team that won games. And was pretty much the best player to come out of college in his draft class. There were also a lot of grumbling about Eli. The only critic of Jones hs only been me and go terps it seems like for a qb he didn't look to have gotten at all better.
If Anything I would expect more change from Abrams  
Debaser : 11/11/2021 12:14 pm : link
This team started to decline when Mara got promoted in 2011 and has been making player decisions since. So Ern was the last real GM they had. Although Reese was still bad all things considered.

We really do not know what role Abrams played in Jones or other key decisions. For all we know, this was just a shurmur "trying to get a spark" from a mobile QB trick that so may desperate coaches have resorted to over the years (with little success I might add). Whether that is Rhule benching Darnold recently or Mcadoo big suit benching Eli for geno Smith. For all we know that was what Shurmur was doing with Jones.

In other words, Jones was really just Shurmurs choice. And that makes sense if you think about it since he was coach.

I would not expect a new GM especially an outsider to ruffle feathers as I would Abrams who at least Mara knows and respects.
RE: If Anything I would expect more change from Abrams  
Section331 : 11/11/2021 1:46 pm : link
In comment 15451421 Debaser said:
Quote:
This team started to decline when Mara got promoted in 2011 and has been making player decisions since. So Ern was the last real GM they had. Although Reese was still bad all things considered.

We really do not know what role Abrams played in Jones or other key decisions. For all we know, this was just a shurmur "trying to get a spark" from a mobile QB trick that so may desperate coaches have resorted to over the years (with little success I might add). Whether that is Rhule benching Darnold recently or Mcadoo big suit benching Eli for geno Smith. For all we know that was what Shurmur was doing with Jones.

In other words, Jones was really just Shurmurs choice. And that makes sense if you think about it since he was coach.

I would not expect a new GM especially an outsider to ruffle feathers as I would Abrams who at least Mara knows and respects.


We'll have to agree to disagree that Jones was Shurmur's pick. It was DG who gushed about falling "full bloom in love" with him at the Sr Bowl, and there were reports that Shurmur preferred Lock.

I think Mara forced DG to give Judge more input, I don't think Shurmur had nearly as much influence.
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