I’d argue that these are the two most important voices in the franchise not named Mara. After the loss to the Rams, I was certain that the wheels would fall off and ownership would be forced into an outside hire general manager. Now, I think Abrams has a chance again. I always felt he has been groomed for this role since Gettleman was hired. I’m not saying this is good, I’d much prefer an outside voice, although I would not advocate firing Judge at this point.
Of course promoting Abrams would be the safe movie so of course I could see John doing it. He's such a fucking wimp.
If that's what it comes to hopefully the Jones and Barkley scholarships leave with Gettleman, and Garrett is shown the door too.
If that's what it comes to hopefully the Jones and Barkley scholarships leave with Gettleman, and Garrett is shown the door too.
GT, the thought of elevating someone who has been involved in this shitshow makes me nauseous.
If that's what it comes to hopefully the Jones and Barkley scholarships leave with Gettleman, and Garrett is shown the door too.
I think if this happens, you have to reset the clock on Judge. Let both sink or swim together.
The issue is Mara will not want to move off Judge. He really screwed up retaining Gettleman after 2019, although I expect this was always the plan.
I have little to no faith in Mara making the right call so-gun to head-I now think DG 'retires' & either Abrams or Pettit is elevated to the top job. Yay!!!
I'll be seeing my hopes lower; simply that Judge inherited Jones and Barkley and will want to move on. Doesn't solve every problem, but it solves two big ones.
He inherited DJ & much of this roster from a buffoon of a GM.
If it was up to me, the Giants hire a GM from outside the organization & he makes the decision on JJ. None of this arranged marriage BS.
Can't fire Judge if and when '22 goes bad because it's spent shedding Gettleman's errors.
He inherited DJ & much of this roster from a buffoon of a GM.
If it was up to me, the Giants hire a GM from outside the organization & he makes the decision on JJ. None of this arranged marriage BS.
That's what I would do too.
Louis Riddick was an outside voice in 2018 who, in hindsight, basically gets you the same results as Gettleman except Collins is paid big money to stay here, Beckham stays and Haskins is taken over Jones. That sounds fun.
George Young to Accorsi was pretty seamless, as was Accorsi to Reese.
I know over on the Sam Beal thread there is a lot of revisiting a ship that has already sailed. Beal was a fuck up of 3 years ago now, lamenting that pick is pointless. He was a sunk cost.
Whatever the draft situation since Judge has come on board has been pretty good so far. Thomas, McKinney, Toney and Ojulari with premium picks the last 2 years with additional resources picked up in a big draft this year, and it’s interesting that I rarely hear the latter discussed around here, only the perceived FA struggle people feel we’re in for.
Whatever Gettleman’s actual role is at this point, Mara would be wise to suggest he retire (wink, wink) and let Judge proceed with who he’s comfortable with.
And Abrams will be his "Robin" to handle all the intricacies that go along with wearing a GM and HC hat.
I give EA total credit for building-in part-3 Super Bowl teams. No argument there. Where he fucked us was recommending DG. He was doing a solid for a friend & set this franchise back years.
Louis Riddick was an outside voice in 2018 who, in hindsight, basically gets you the same results as Gettleman except Collins is paid big money to stay here, Beckham stays and Haskins is taken over Jones. That sounds fun.
George Young to Accorsi was pretty seamless, as was Accorsi to Reese.
I know over on the Sam Beal thread there is a lot of revisiting a ship that has already sailed. Beal was a fuck up of 3 years ago now, lamenting that pick is pointless. He was a sunk cost.
Whatever the draft situation since Judge has come on board has been pretty good so far. Thomas, McKinney, Toney and Ojulari with premium picks the last 2 years with additional resources picked up in a big draft this year, and it’s interesting that I rarely hear the latter discussed around here, only the perceived FA struggle people feel we’re in for.
Whatever Gettleman’s actual role is at this point, Mara would be wise to suggest he retire (wink, wink) and let Judge proceed with who he’s comfortable with.
So what's the argument for the inside voices? Heck with those voices you at least have some semblance of a track record, and the past 10 years have been miserable.
Doesn't mean Accorsi was the right guy for the GM search.
He conducted a fake search. It was for redemption. Accorsi recommended his friend DG because he felt guilty he recommended Reese over DG when he retired. And he essentially said so on a podcast in the summer of '20.
So Accorsi deserves all the mocking that comes his way...
Quote:
of an argument. What about an outside voice are you really looking for?
Louis Riddick was an outside voice in 2018 who, in hindsight, basically gets you the same results as Gettleman except Collins is paid big money to stay here, Beckham stays and Haskins is taken over Jones. That sounds fun.
George Young to Accorsi was pretty seamless, as was Accorsi to Reese.
I know over on the Sam Beal thread there is a lot of revisiting a ship that has already sailed. Beal was a fuck up of 3 years ago now, lamenting that pick is pointless. He was a sunk cost.
Whatever the draft situation since Judge has come on board has been pretty good so far. Thomas, McKinney, Toney and Ojulari with premium picks the last 2 years with additional resources picked up in a big draft this year, and it’s interesting that I rarely hear the latter discussed around here, only the perceived FA struggle people feel we’re in for.
Whatever Gettleman’s actual role is at this point, Mara would be wise to suggest he retire (wink, wink) and let Judge proceed with who he’s comfortable with.
So what's the argument for the inside voices? Heck with those voices you at least have some semblance of a track record, and the past 10 years have been miserable.
The argument for it is exactly what I stated above. If you look at the last 2 drafts, and I would also say FA periods with Bradberry, Martinez, Booker, etc., whatever was failing them has gotten much better since Judge’s arrival.
Both are possible.
I wouldn’t call the FAs great, but they’re improved. The last 2 drafts were excellent. Give me a break.
And I wouldn't be surprised if Mara feels guilty - now - about giving the job to DG over Abrams. Because it seems Mara had gotten into an interesting pattern of making decisions with emotion over logic.
At this point, if we are going to stay in-house with the GM, give dual responsibility to Judge. He can't be any worse than DG. And could probably get better results throwing a dart at names on a board with drafting or signing FAs.
As for '21...AT looks like a freak @ WR. Ojulari has been good.
Not comparing the last two drafts to the '74 Steelers draft, but I think there's some talent there. Let's just hope they continue to improve.
Yea, low. Ok dude. You’re not sounding smart here.
4 immediate starters with 4 premium picks, all of which have flashed anywhere from above average starter to all pro ability within their first 1-2 seasons. Not to mention Crowder, Lemieux, Peart and Holmes who are all contributing and are obviously a part of the future plans.
And I wouldn't be surprised if Mara feels guilty - now - about giving the job to DG over Abrams. Because it seems Mara had gotten into an interesting pattern of making decisions with emotion over logic.
At this point, if we are going to stay in-house with the GM, give dual responsibility to Judge. He can't be any worse than DG. And could probably get better results throwing a dart at names on a board with drafting or signing FAs.
Here’s a question for you. If Mara is blindly forcing the “Giant way” on this franchise and averse to outside influence, why didn’t he just hire Marc Ross? He was the first interview.
Two players that were on this team in 2017 are still here in 2021. I expect similar turnover these next two to four years. I don't see building blocks here. Thomas has the best shot, but I'm not counting on anyone else.
Listen. That's great. I'm a loyal person too. But I'm not running a billion dollar enterprise. This is a business. You gotta be cutthroat at times.
Listen. That's great. I'm a loyal person too. But I'm not running a billion dollar enterprise. This is a business. You gotta be cutthroat at times.
Not saying he doesn’t. Just pointing out that technically Ross was the inside candidate several years ago, much more than Gettleman.
We'll see.
Excellent?
From Merriam-Webster...
1: very good of its kind : eminently good : FIRST-CLASS
2 archaic : SUPERIOR
Are you sure excellent is the right adjective?
Two players that were on this team in 2017 are still here in 2021. I expect similar turnover these next two to four years. I don't see building blocks here. Thomas has the best shot, but I'm not counting on anyone else.
So admittedly you like Thomas. The worst you can say about Toney is you think he might be a jerk because he tweets. Ojulari is leading all rookies in sacks but you don’t think he’s a building block and I guess not sure what you think of McKinney but don’t like him that much either.
Hope all hit.
Quote:
The last 2 drafts were excellent. Give me a break.
Excellent?
From Merriam-Webster...
Quote:
Definition of excellent
1: very good of its kind : eminently good : FIRST-CLASS
2 archaic : SUPERIOR
Are you sure excellent is the right adjective?
Thomas
McKinney
Crowder
Lemieux (figured to be a starter on the OL this year)
Peart
Holmes
Toney
Ojulari
A bunch of potential development still to come with guys like Robinson and Smith plus 5 premium picks next year as a result of this past year’s draft maneuvering. It’s early yet, but yes. I’m confident in saying that’s an excellent job in the last 2 drafts.
Here’s a question for you. If Mara is blindly forcing the “Giant way” on this franchise and averse to outside influence, why didn’t he just hire Marc Ross? He was the first interview.
But Mara still checked the "Giants Way" box with Gettleman. My guess Mara was thrilled that Gettleman was on the market and used GenoGate to kill two birds - HC and GM - with one stone to make sure he (and Ernie) could get DG.
Mara likely went to Ernie to ask him what he thought of DG. And Ernie was very likely thrilled to endorse his old friend and give him a second crack at the GM job.
I have absolutely no doubt that DG was on Mara's mind by October of the 2017 season...
I actually don't object to the profile of Abrams, but Abrams himself should be a non starter because he's been marinating in the stupidity of the Giants FO for so long
If you don’t already know that it’s an excellent result to have a player who was literally picked last in his draft class step into a starting role on a defense that’s been very good over the past 1.5 seasons then maybe you just don’t understand how the draft works.
If the Giants don't promote him, is he likely to get a GM job elsewhere in 2022?
1. Marshon Lattimore
1. Ryan Ramczyk
2. Marcus Williams
3. Alvin Kamara
3. Trey Hendrickson
If the Giants don't promote him, is he likely to get a GM job elsewhere in 2022?
HAHA. No.
Mara can't promote from within.
Quote:
Excellence?
If you don’t already know that it’s an excellent result to have a player who was literally picked last in his draft class step into a starting role on a defense that’s been very good over the past 1.5 seasons then maybe you just don’t understand how the draft works.
Who did he have to beat out to "step in" to that role? Reggie Ragland? He's starting, sure. On a team with serious personnel issues and lack of depth. And no one thinks Tae Crowder is the reason the defense plays well. This defense goes the way the secondary and the DL go.
Link - ( New Window )
Great link.
Here is an important line in that article, btw:
Now there is a guy I would sign-up for right now. Will McClay. He is THE reason Dallas drafts so well. The guy is a personnel savant...
Good point. If they did promote KA, they would have to sell it hard to the fan base. They would have to get rid of Garrett, which looks likely anyways and commit to a different approach as an organization.
They couldn’t step up to the mic and say, here’s Kevin. He’s gonna build a winner. There has to be wholistic changes
Quote:
In comment 15450383 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Excellence?
If you don’t already know that it’s an excellent result to have a player who was literally picked last in his draft class step into a starting role on a defense that’s been very good over the past 1.5 seasons then maybe you just don’t understand how the draft works.
Who did he have to beat out to "step in" to that role? Reggie Ragland? He's starting, sure. On a team with serious personnel issues and lack of depth. And no one thinks Tae Crowder is the reason the defense plays well. This defense goes the way the secondary and the DL go.
Reggie Ragland wasn’t even on the roster last year. No one is saying he’s Ray Lewis but just because he didn’t unseat some great player doesn’t mean that he himself isn’t a good, useful LB in a good defense. Again, the guy was Mr. Irrelevant. I’m surprised there are people here who would debate the fact that he was a good pick, but then again, I’m not.
I blame them for 3 loses but can not see a new set of coaches after another 2 year stint.
Hopefully they learn from it....and get better.
There are a number of guys getting snaps because either their unit is decimated or stinks.
Getting burn on a shitty team isn’t an indication of success.
Remember — Hill, Hernandez, Slayton, Carter, Baker, Connelly, Ximines have all gotten a bunch of reps over the last four years.
Quote:
Steve Keim was an in house hire in Arizona despite him coming up when that franchise was mostly poor performing. Howie Roseman came up in house in Philly. If I dug into it, I’m sure most NFL GM’s are hired within. Doesn’t make it right though.
Good point. If they did promote KA, they would have to sell it hard to the fan base. They would have to get rid of Garrett, which looks likely anyways and commit to a different approach as an organization.
They couldn’t step up to the mic and say, here’s Kevin. He’s gonna build a winner. There has to be wholistic changes
I wonder if John is more worried about the fan base or his 10 brothers and sister co owners and all their kids who can vote him out of a job?
Seems like he is appeasing the latter...
The best thing about serving under people making mistakes is that you can learn from said mistakes while not owning them.
The best thing about serving under people making mistakes is that you can learn from said mistakes while not owning them.
With all due respect, this has been happening for 10 years. I’m not saying KA can’t succeed. I’m just saying it wouldn’t be received well and they need to paint it differently than they have, if that’s what they plan on doing.
Quote:
In comment 15450385 Chris684 said:
Quote:
In comment 15450383 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Excellence?
If you don’t already know that it’s an excellent result to have a player who was literally picked last in his draft class step into a starting role on a defense that’s been very good over the past 1.5 seasons then maybe you just don’t understand how the draft works.
Who did he have to beat out to "step in" to that role? Reggie Ragland? He's starting, sure. On a team with serious personnel issues and lack of depth. And no one thinks Tae Crowder is the reason the defense plays well. This defense goes the way the secondary and the DL go.
Reggie Ragland wasn’t even on the roster last year. No one is saying he’s Ray Lewis but just because he didn’t unseat some great player doesn’t mean that he himself isn’t a good, useful LB in a good defense. Again, the guy was Mr. Irrelevant. I’m surprised there are people here who would debate the fact that he was a good pick, but then again, I’m not.
Your argument is that he has a starting job so that must mean he's good. It's silly, so please don't play that "I'm surrounded by idiots" line. Ximines and Carter were also "starting" on the same defense. We changing tune on them being "good, useful players" too by this same logic?
Teams with personnel issues often do start guys for lack of better options and we all are aware that the Giants haven't set the world on fire with starting quality LB. It's been a revolving door at the position for two decades.
Quote:
Excellence?
If you don’t already know that it’s an excellent result to have a player who was literally picked last in his draft class step into a starting role on a defense that’s been very good over the past 1.5 seasons then maybe you just don’t understand how the draft works.
It’s an excellent result for Crowder, but not yet for Giants.
You don’t know this?
FA has been pretty good man.
Golladay has been hurt but has shown flashes he can take over a game. Booker has been a god send behind Barkley. Rudolph has had to stay in most of the time to chip linebackers to help the OT's. Jackson has had 2 solid games now.
Bradberry/Martinez were a huge difference. the late addition of Logan Ryan has given some leadership.
Louis Riddick was an outside voice in 2018 who, in hindsight, basically gets you the same results as Gettleman except Collins is paid big money to stay here, Beckham stays and Haskins is taken over Jones. That sounds fun.
George Young to Accorsi was pretty seamless, as was Accorsi to Reese.
I know over on the Sam Beal thread there is a lot of revisiting a ship that has already sailed. Beal was a fuck up of 3 years ago now, lamenting that pick is pointless. He was a sunk cost.
Whatever the draft situation since Judge has come on board has been pretty good so far. Thomas, McKinney, Toney and Ojulari with premium picks the last 2 years with additional resources picked up in a big draft this year, and it’s interesting that I rarely hear the latter discussed around here, only the perceived FA struggle people feel we’re in for.
Whatever Gettleman’s actual role is at this point, Mara would be wise to suggest he retire (wink, wink) and let Judge proceed with who he’s comfortable with.
I agree with your points here. Overall I think gettleman has had average to good drafts. It could get better with DJ having a good year.
The problem, I think, is that people dont like Gettleman's style/personality...whatever. Hes made mistakes, but I think most of the coaching ones are on the Maras not Gettleman.
But whatever...lets go hire anybody from the outside.
Quote:
of an argument. What about an outside voice are you really looking for?
Louis Riddick was an outside voice in 2018 who, in hindsight, basically gets you the same results as Gettleman except Collins is paid big money to stay here, Beckham stays and Haskins is taken over Jones. That sounds fun.
George Young to Accorsi was pretty seamless, as was Accorsi to Reese.
I know over on the Sam Beal thread there is a lot of revisiting a ship that has already sailed. Beal was a fuck up of 3 years ago now, lamenting that pick is pointless. He was a sunk cost.
Whatever the draft situation since Judge has come on board has been pretty good so far. Thomas, McKinney, Toney and Ojulari with premium picks the last 2 years with additional resources picked up in a big draft this year, and it’s interesting that I rarely hear the latter discussed around here, only the perceived FA struggle people feel we’re in for.
Whatever Gettleman’s actual role is at this point, Mara would be wise to suggest he retire (wink, wink) and let Judge proceed with who he’s comfortable with.
I agree with your points here. Overall I think gettleman has had average to good drafts. It could get better with DJ having a good year.
The problem, I think, is that people dont like Gettleman's style/personality...whatever. Hes made mistakes, but I think most of the coaching ones are on the Maras not Gettleman.
But whatever...lets go hire anybody from the outside.
You two should get a room...
Draft good players, get the QB and coach right. I think for all of Gettleman’s faults, we likely have our QB and coach in the building right now. Time to start finding better players. And Abrams vs whoever the hell - it really isn’t anything other than a 50/50 coin flip.
Now - that doesn’t have anything to do with O’Brien’s prospects to become a good GM. But it certainly doesn’t make him a better candidate than Abrams.
Draft good players, get the QB and coach right. I think for all of Gettleman’s faults, we likely have our QB and coach in the building right now. Time to start finding better players. And Abrams vs whoever the hell - it really isn’t anything other than a 50/50 coin flip.
It’s wrong for any fan to doubt promoting within the building, with our same old school ideology, after a decade of garbage play isn’t the way to go? Really? I think anyone who can witness what we have since 2011 and think, ‘these guys can get it right’ isn’t thinking clearly. Must just be me.
Likely having our QB and HC is debatable. Don’t feel like going down that avenue tonight. God knows, it’s been ongoing since the two were brought in.
Spot on
We are closer than everyone is leading on.
Quote:
In comment 15450405 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 15450385 Chris684 said:
Quote:
In comment 15450383 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Excellence?
If you don’t already know that it’s an excellent result to have a player who was literally picked last in his draft class step into a starting role on a defense that’s been very good over the past 1.5 seasons then maybe you just don’t understand how the draft works.
Who did he have to beat out to "step in" to that role? Reggie Ragland? He's starting, sure. On a team with serious personnel issues and lack of depth. And no one thinks Tae Crowder is the reason the defense plays well. This defense goes the way the secondary and the DL go.
Reggie Ragland wasn’t even on the roster last year. No one is saying he’s Ray Lewis but just because he didn’t unseat some great player doesn’t mean that he himself isn’t a good, useful LB in a good defense. Again, the guy was Mr. Irrelevant. I’m surprised there are people here who would debate the fact that he was a good pick, but then again, I’m not.
Your argument is that he has a starting job so that must mean he's good. It's silly, so please don't play that "I'm surrounded by idiots" line. Ximines and Carter were also "starting" on the same defense. We changing tune on them being "good, useful players" too by this same logic?
Teams with personnel issues often do start guys for lack of better options and we all are aware that the Giants haven't set the world on fire with starting quality LB. It's been a revolving door at the position for two decades.
You seem to be narrowly focused on this year and overlooking that he entered the starting lineup last year. And no, by the time the defense was playing really well last season neither Carter nor Ximines were starting because they were both hurt.
Stupid to go down this road specifically on Crowder though because I never meant to tout him specifically as a player better than what he is but rather point out that the return on our investment of drafting him last in the entire draft is pretty damn good so far and part of a larger trend of excellent drafting the last 2 years.
The players picked, plus the accumulation of future picks for this year was really well done. Is it not great to have Toney plus an extra #1? Was it not great grabbing Ojulari in the 2nd when some were speculating he was a target in the 1st? It’s ok to admit that good things are still taking place every once in awhile in the Meadowlands, it won’t kill you.
Come this offseason, look at the number of starters who are UFA, need to be upgraded, and the resources they have.
Like last year, I predict it’ll be one step forward, one step back. And the Giants, if healthy will hover around 7-10, 8-9.
Does that explode the narrative or no?
Quote:
In comment 15450419 Chris684 said:
Quote:
In comment 15450405 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 15450385 Chris684 said:
Quote:
In comment 15450383 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Excellence?
If you don’t already know that it’s an excellent result to have a player who was literally picked last in his draft class step into a starting role on a defense that’s been very good over the past 1.5 seasons then maybe you just don’t understand how the draft works.
Who did he have to beat out to "step in" to that role? Reggie Ragland? He's starting, sure. On a team with serious personnel issues and lack of depth. And no one thinks Tae Crowder is the reason the defense plays well. This defense goes the way the secondary and the DL go.
Reggie Ragland wasn’t even on the roster last year. No one is saying he’s Ray Lewis but just because he didn’t unseat some great player doesn’t mean that he himself isn’t a good, useful LB in a good defense. Again, the guy was Mr. Irrelevant. I’m surprised there are people here who would debate the fact that he was a good pick, but then again, I’m not.
Your argument is that he has a starting job so that must mean he's good. It's silly, so please don't play that "I'm surrounded by idiots" line. Ximines and Carter were also "starting" on the same defense. We changing tune on them being "good, useful players" too by this same logic?
Teams with personnel issues often do start guys for lack of better options and we all are aware that the Giants haven't set the world on fire with starting quality LB. It's been a revolving door at the position for two decades.
You seem to be narrowly focused on this year and overlooking that he entered the starting lineup last year. And no, by the time the defense was playing really well last season neither Carter nor Ximines were starting because they were both hurt.
Stupid to go down this road specifically on Crowder though because I never meant to tout him specifically as a player better than what he is but rather point out that the return on our investment of drafting him last in the entire draft is pretty damn good so far and part of a larger trend of excellent drafting the last 2 years.
The players picked, plus the accumulation of future picks for this year was really well done. Is it not great to have Toney plus an extra #1? Was it not great grabbing Ojulari in the 2nd when some were speculating he was a target in the 1st? It’s ok to admit that good things are still taking place every once in awhile in the Meadowlands, it won’t kill you.
You can frame anything positively if you do it the way you have. All I said was Crowder is a bad example to use of arguing that the drafting has been "excellent" and you've chosen to defend the point. He's a backup type of LB pressed to start because the Giants are positionally weak.
We already covered 2 other examples in this exchange. Ximines and Carter are do-nothing players who were placed as starters because they didn't have better options. They were given a chance to show something and the clock ran out. You can keep giving them snaps. It doesn't mean they were good selections. Not sure how many teams in the NFL Ximines, Carter, or Crowder would actually start for.
I think the Giants scouting systems are probably broken and outdated. An outside voice from a leading organization (Ravens/Steelers/Chiefs) can bring the proper structure in place.
Promoting Abrams would be a terrible move. I do think there can be rock stars in bad organizations. But it seems unlikely.
It's been over 40 years since we've hired a GM outside the organization - it's resulted in four Super Bowls and been largely successful. But it's failed miserably for the past decade - a period of time when the game has undergone significant changes.
I don't think I'd watch next season if they promote Abrams.
Quote:
In comment 15450467 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 15450419 Chris684 said:
Quote:
In comment 15450405 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 15450385 Chris684 said:
Quote:
In comment 15450383 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Excellence?
If you don’t already know that it’s an excellent result to have a player who was literally picked last in his draft class step into a starting role on a defense that’s been very good over the past 1.5 seasons then maybe you just don’t understand how the draft works.
Who did he have to beat out to "step in" to that role? Reggie Ragland? He's starting, sure. On a team with serious personnel issues and lack of depth. And no one thinks Tae Crowder is the reason the defense plays well. This defense goes the way the secondary and the DL go.
Reggie Ragland wasn’t even on the roster last year. No one is saying he’s Ray Lewis but just because he didn’t unseat some great player doesn’t mean that he himself isn’t a good, useful LB in a good defense. Again, the guy was Mr. Irrelevant. I’m surprised there are people here who would debate the fact that he was a good pick, but then again, I’m not.
Your argument is that he has a starting job so that must mean he's good. It's silly, so please don't play that "I'm surrounded by idiots" line. Ximines and Carter were also "starting" on the same defense. We changing tune on them being "good, useful players" too by this same logic?
Teams with personnel issues often do start guys for lack of better options and we all are aware that the Giants haven't set the world on fire with starting quality LB. It's been a revolving door at the position for two decades.
You seem to be narrowly focused on this year and overlooking that he entered the starting lineup last year. And no, by the time the defense was playing really well last season neither Carter nor Ximines were starting because they were both hurt.
Stupid to go down this road specifically on Crowder though because I never meant to tout him specifically as a player better than what he is but rather point out that the return on our investment of drafting him last in the entire draft is pretty damn good so far and part of a larger trend of excellent drafting the last 2 years.
The players picked, plus the accumulation of future picks for this year was really well done. Is it not great to have Toney plus an extra #1? Was it not great grabbing Ojulari in the 2nd when some were speculating he was a target in the 1st? It’s ok to admit that good things are still taking place every once in awhile in the Meadowlands, it won’t kill you.
You can frame anything positively if you do it the way you have. All I said was Crowder is a bad example to use of arguing that the drafting has been "excellent" and you've chosen to defend the point. He's a backup type of LB pressed to start because the Giants are positionally weak.
We already covered 2 other examples in this exchange. Ximines and Carter are do-nothing players who were placed as starters because they didn't have better options. They were given a chance to show something and the clock ran out. You can keep giving them snaps. It doesn't mean they were good selections. Not sure how many teams in the NFL Ximines, Carter, or Crowder would actually start for.
You're missing the fact that the Giants defense has generally been very good with Tae Crowder starting at one of the MLB spots. Sure he has weaknesses but he's also made some plays. A useful, starting MLB on a good defense is a very good outcome for a "Mr. Irrelevant" selection. Not many talent scouts are going to disagree with that.
That’s why promoting an internal candidate like Abrams is a bad idea.
So let me ask a simple question: how can anyone praise the management of a team with a maxed out cap and a string of recent high draft picks that is 3-6?
You guys keep saying the Giants are a horrible team. That is not actually true the last 3 weeks.
Don’t you agree that the Giants face an organizational problem? For me, everything points to it.
Quote:
We've seen Thomas play well in how many games? And Toney seems, to be kind, like a moron who's going to be a problem at some point or another. They're also two more high draft picks on an offense full of high draft picks - and the offense is still a joke.
Two players that were on this team in 2017 are still here in 2021. I expect similar turnover these next two to four years. I don't see building blocks here. Thomas has the best shot, but I'm not counting on anyone else.
So admittedly you like Thomas. The worst you can say about Toney is you think he might be a jerk because he tweets. Ojulari is leading all rookies in sacks but you don’t think he’s a building block and I guess not sure what you think of McKinney but don’t like him that much either.
Toney is going to create a lot of posts that a lot of you are going to wish you had back, there's very little doubt about that.
On the plus side, we're probably looking at a Terrell Owens clone.
On the minus side, we're probably looking at an OBJ clone.
But we're almost definitely NOT looking at a Hines Ward clone.
You guys keep saying the Giants are a horrible team. That is not actually true the last 3 weeks.
On any given Sunday...
And somehow you'll sign up for that every time. It's basically like when you cross the street when the DON'T WALK sign is flashing... you are dumb enough to believe that you'll NEVER get run over if you do the same thing every time.
And that's probably right.
You are dumb enough to believe that.
Does that explode the narrative or no?
Why would he?
You guys keep saying the Giants are a horrible team. That is not actually true the last 3 weeks.
The Giants are an average to below average team. So on any given Sunday we can certainly compete and win. But we aren't good enough - yet - to be counted on to win.
Additionally, there aren't ANY great team in the NFL right now. The competitive balance is more spread out than ever, so the "any given Sunday" opportunity is greater than ever...
You can't pay a bottom of the league producer at quarterback based on excuses, and the excuses are the only case in his favor.
We could have started this season with Glennon and we'd probably be right where were at: 3-6 scoring 19 PPG.
You guys keep saying the Giants are a horrible team. That is not actually true the last 3 weeks.
The last 3 weeks is the amount of data you want to use?
Did you know that 3 and fucking 6 is the best 9 game record this team has had since 2017?
Let that marinate and sink the fuck in Ryan.
So forgive us, when we don't jump on your 2 and 1 bandwagon in the middle of a 3-6 season.
For fuck's sake.
Quote:
In comment 15450367 Go Terps said:
Quote:
We've seen Thomas play well in how many games? And Toney seems, to be kind, like a moron who's going to be a problem at some point or another. They're also two more high draft picks on an offense full of high draft picks - and the offense is still a joke.
Two players that were on this team in 2017 are still here in 2021. I expect similar turnover these next two to four years. I don't see building blocks here. Thomas has the best shot, but I'm not counting on anyone else.
So admittedly you like Thomas. The worst you can say about Toney is you think he might be a jerk because he tweets. Ojulari is leading all rookies in sacks but you don’t think he’s a building block and I guess not sure what you think of McKinney but don’t like him that much either.
Toney is going to create a lot of posts that a lot of you are going to wish you had back, there's very little doubt about that.
On the plus side, we're probably looking at a Terrell Owens clone.
On the minus side, we're probably looking at an OBJ clone.
But we're almost definitely NOT looking at a Hines Ward clone.
there is no way Toney gets anywhere near TO level of production and dominance
I, of course, don't have a clue whether he should be considered, or is even a viable candidate to replace Gettleman. But there are probably examples of someone who worked in a subordinate role in losing organizations who achieved success when given a shot at a top, GM-type job, just as there are probably examples of those coming from winning programs who've failed. Again, I'm not trying to bury Abrams or praise him. Maybe there's already a book on him one way or another, but none of us has been privy to it.
I, of course, don't have a clue whether he should be considered, or is even a viable candidate to replace Gettleman. But there are probably examples of someone who worked in a subordinate role in losing organizations who achieved success when given a shot at a top, GM-type job, just as there are probably examples of those coming from winning programs who've failed. Again, I'm not trying to bury Abrams or praise him. Maybe there's already a book on him one way or another, but none of us has been privy to it.
I, of course, don't have a clue whether he should be considered, or is even a viable candidate to replace Gettleman. But there are probably examples of someone who worked in a subordinate role in losing organizations who achieved success when given a shot at a top, GM-type job, just as there are probably examples of those coming from winning programs who've failed. Again, I'm not trying to bury Abrams or praise him. Maybe there's already a book on him one way or another, but none of us has been privy to it.
Solid post. Don't expect it to gain much traction around here though.
In fact, in the last 3 GM transitions there have been 2 decisions hire internally from Young to Accorsi and Accorsi to Reese. Both of which were huge successes.
You can't pay a bottom of the league producer at quarterback based on excuses, and the excuses are the only case in his favor.
We could have started this season with Glennon and we'd probably be right where were at: 3-6 scoring 19 PPG.
If Accorsi was the chief architect for our SB teams, you're acknowledging that DG was along for the ride for Carolina's SB team, right?
Quote:
In comment 15450336 Chris684 said:
Quote:
of an argument. What about an outside voice are you really looking for?
Louis Riddick was an outside voice in 2018 who, in hindsight, basically gets you the same results as Gettleman except Collins is paid big money to stay here, Beckham stays and Haskins is taken over Jones. That sounds fun.
George Young to Accorsi was pretty seamless, as was Accorsi to Reese.
I know over on the Sam Beal thread there is a lot of revisiting a ship that has already sailed. Beal was a fuck up of 3 years ago now, lamenting that pick is pointless. He was a sunk cost.
Whatever the draft situation since Judge has come on board has been pretty good so far. Thomas, McKinney, Toney and Ojulari with premium picks the last 2 years with additional resources picked up in a big draft this year, and it’s interesting that I rarely hear the latter discussed around here, only the perceived FA struggle people feel we’re in for.
Whatever Gettleman’s actual role is at this point, Mara would be wise to suggest he retire (wink, wink) and let Judge proceed with who he’s comfortable with.
So what's the argument for the inside voices? Heck with those voices you at least have some semblance of a track record, and the past 10 years have been miserable.
The argument for it is exactly what I stated above. If you look at the last 2 drafts, and I would also say FA periods with Bradberry, Martinez, Booker, etc., whatever was failing them has gotten much better since Judge’s arrival.
When does the winning percentage begin to improve?
Quote:
Does anyone have any real information on why Abrams would be a lousy choice other than he's already in the building? Can anyone discuss strengths/weaknesses relative to other names that have been mentioned? Does anyone know what role he currently plays other than cap strategist, especially in relation to player evaluation? Has anyone seen, heard, read asshat info on how Abrams is thought of around the league? Can anyone detail action, decisions he's responsible for that would disqualify him as a candidate?
I, of course, don't have a clue whether he should be considered, or is even a viable candidate to replace Gettleman. But there are probably examples of someone who worked in a subordinate role in losing organizations who achieved success when given a shot at a top, GM-type job, just as there are probably examples of those coming from winning programs who've failed. Again, I'm not trying to bury Abrams or praise him. Maybe there's already a book on him one way or another, but none of us has been privy to it.
Solid post. Don't expect it to gain much traction around here though.
In fact, in the last 3 GM transitions there have been 2 decisions hire internally from Young to Accorsi and Accorsi to Reese. Both of which were huge successes.
Tell us about the third internal decision, Chris.
And was Accorsi to Reese a huge success? You said earlier in this thread that Accorsi was the chief architect of BOTH of the most recent SB teams. So what was Reese's role?
I, of course, don't have a clue whether he should be considered, or is even a viable candidate to replace Gettleman. But there are probably examples of someone who worked in a subordinate role in losing organizations who achieved success when given a shot at a top, GM-type job, just as there are probably examples of those coming from winning programs who've failed. Again, I'm not trying to bury Abrams or praise him. Maybe there's already a book on him one way or another, but none of us has been privy to it.
I touched on this above - Abrams came up as a cap guy, not a personnel one. The Giants biggest flaws have been in scouting and overrating their own team. He recently moved towards covering personnel according to comments he made on a recent podcast. Have the personnel moves been that good of late that we should reward someone internally for making them? There are a few I like but nothing I love.
The Giants have sucked for a decade. Do they even have modern scouting systems in place? Have they properly adjusted for the changes in the game the past decade? Can they do a proper analysis of the internal organization to assess whether people are doing a good job or not?
Is it possible Abrams is a rockstar in waiting? Sure, but we're ten years into everything associated with the Giants organization being dog shit, so I think it's a higher probability that someone with an outside view properly addresses internal issues.
Abrams is not a mere bystander to recent results. He's been the assistant GM. Do you think it's likely he advocated rather drafting Nelson/Jackson/Allen in 2018, or holding off on a QB in 2019 to draft Herbert in 2020? I don't.
The base rate of GM failures is high. I think hiring someone who has been part of one of the worst organizations since 2012 is just mind-boggling. Nobody is advocating poaching a Jets AGM.
I think until recently, most on the outside looked at Abrams as basically just the salary cap/contract guy.
The good news is we learned that Abrams actually spends a great deal more of his time in recent years on player evaluation & acquisition.
The bad news is we learned Abrams actually spends his time on player evaluation & acquisition...
Quote:
Based on his production any second contract, or even picking up the fifth year option, is overpaying for Jones.
You can't pay a bottom of the league producer at quarterback based on excuses, and the excuses are the only case in his favor.
We could have started this season with Glennon and we'd probably be right where were at: 3-6 scoring 19 PPG.
Perhaps. At the same time with the injuries to Olne and WRs there is a good chance we'd be in similar spot with a 3rd year Eli as our QB as well. And we had a future with two super bowls for him.
Terps --I'm not saying you are wrong. I just don't believe it is as simple as you see it, which is why we need an objective and honest decision maker.
Here was Eli's production in year 3:
3,494 total yards 20 total TDs 13 total INTs 80.4 rating
Here is Jones production on the season to date projected onto16 games:
4,119 total yards 18 total TDs 9 total INTs 87 rating
Quote:
In comment 15450829 clatterbuck said:
Quote:
Does anyone have any real information on why Abrams would be a lousy choice other than he's already in the building? Can anyone discuss strengths/weaknesses relative to other names that have been mentioned? Does anyone know what role he currently plays other than cap strategist, especially in relation to player evaluation? Has anyone seen, heard, read asshat info on how Abrams is thought of around the league? Can anyone detail action, decisions he's responsible for that would disqualify him as a candidate?
I, of course, don't have a clue whether he should be considered, or is even a viable candidate to replace Gettleman. But there are probably examples of someone who worked in a subordinate role in losing organizations who achieved success when given a shot at a top, GM-type job, just as there are probably examples of those coming from winning programs who've failed. Again, I'm not trying to bury Abrams or praise him. Maybe there's already a book on him one way or another, but none of us has been privy to it.
Solid post. Don't expect it to gain much traction around here though.
In fact, in the last 3 GM transitions there have been 2 decisions hire internally from Young to Accorsi and Accorsi to Reese. Both of which were huge successes.
Tell us about the third internal decision, Chris.
And was Accorsi to Reese a huge success? You said earlier in this thread that Accorsi was the chief architect of BOTH of the most recent SB teams. So what was Reese's role?
Sifting through all of my prior posts shotgun style I see!
First off, the compliment I paid to Accorsi doesn't take away from what Reese did. However, there's no denying who built the foundation for the 2007-2011 teams. Accorsi built out the core of those teams (Eli, Snee, Diehl, Osi, Tuck, Kiwi, CWeb, Jacobs, KMac) while Reese did an excellent job supplementing the talent with the likes of Rolle, JPP, Nicks, Bradshaw, Steve Smith, etc. Anyway, call Gettleman's tenure in Carolina whatever you want, that's not my point. I'm not married to what Gettleman has done here which is an overall bad job which I've said plenty of times.
Second, the winning % is starting to improve. I think you'll see that play out as this season carries on.
Lastly, are you sure Gettleman was the inside candidate in 2017? What would that have made Marc Ross who interviewed for the job first? I addressed your question on Reese above.
what if Judge disagrees with you and wants Jones to be his QB and/or Abrams to be his GM.
what if Judge disagrees with you and wants Jones to be his QB and/or Abrams to be his GM.
Then he isn't as bright as he comes off.
Again, why would he want those things?
1. Cap management
2. Managing the draft (trading down for example)
3. Personnel
Why would Judge want an outside GM with no ties to him. Then he’s immediately on the clock. I’d assume he’d prefer Abrams over that scenario. It’ll be interesting to see if he tries to influence Mara to look at Ossenfort, Dimitroff or Pioli (all Patriot ties).
Here was Eli's production in year 3:
3,494 total yards 20 total TDs 13 total INTs 80.4 rating
Here is Jones production on the season to date projected onto16 games:
4,119 total yards 18 total TDs 9 total INTs 87 rating
I think you're looking at year 4 for Eli, he had 24 TD's in year 3, which ranked him 6th in the NFL. It's a different league now. Last year, that would have tied for 17th. Even in 2007, when he had 20 TD's, he was 11th in the league.
16 TD passes in a 17-game season simply isn't going to cut it. Last year, that would have ranked 23rd, tied with Gardner Minshew (who only played 8 games) and the immortal Mitch Trubisky.
Quote:
Terps,
what if Judge disagrees with you and wants Jones to be his QB and/or Abrams to be his GM.
Then he isn't as bright as he comes off.
Again, why would he want those things?
So your entire opinion on Judge as a head coach hinges on whether or not he has Jones as the quarterback. You do know that a lot of things in a football game are outside of the quarterback's control, right?
We really do not know what role Abrams played in Jones or other key decisions. For all we know, this was just a shurmur "trying to get a spark" from a mobile QB trick that so may desperate coaches have resorted to over the years (with little success I might add). Whether that is Rhule benching Darnold recently or Mcadoo big suit benching Eli for geno Smith. For all we know that was what Shurmur was doing with Jones.
In other words, Jones was really just Shurmurs choice. And that makes sense if you think about it since he was coach.
I would not expect a new GM especially an outsider to ruffle feathers as I would Abrams who at least Mara knows and respects.
We really do not know what role Abrams played in Jones or other key decisions. For all we know, this was just a shurmur "trying to get a spark" from a mobile QB trick that so may desperate coaches have resorted to over the years (with little success I might add). Whether that is Rhule benching Darnold recently or Mcadoo big suit benching Eli for geno Smith. For all we know that was what Shurmur was doing with Jones.
In other words, Jones was really just Shurmurs choice. And that makes sense if you think about it since he was coach.
I would not expect a new GM especially an outsider to ruffle feathers as I would Abrams who at least Mara knows and respects.
We'll have to agree to disagree that Jones was Shurmur's pick. It was DG who gushed about falling "full bloom in love" with him at the Sr Bowl, and there were reports that Shurmur preferred Lock.
I think Mara forced DG to give Judge more input, I don't think Shurmur had nearly as much influence.