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Feeling good about where the Giants are at

Breeze_94 : 11/10/2021 1:05 am
This team is making progress whether the naysayers want to admit it or not.

They’ve been riddled by injuries more than any other team, losing 2 defensive captains, Barkley, 2 starting OL for the season, Thomas, and their entire receiving core for multiple games. Yet they are a few stupid blunders away from being 6-3.

It’s early, but looking like some major hits in the last 2 drafts with Thomas, Toney, McKinney and Ojulari, and great value pickups like Roche, Crowder as Mr Irrelevant, and I also like Holmes (think he is very underrated here). Also have a ton of picks in the top 100 next year to continue building,

The trenches, tight end, and LB should be priorities next year. Think a lot of our frustration with Garrett stems from the lack of trust the coaching staff has in the Oline to pass protect.
They are also a few plays away  
Mike from SI : 11/10/2021 2:14 am : link
from being 1-8.
Can't argue with either Breeze or Mike....  
George from PA : 11/10/2021 4:18 am : link
Team is no longer woefully under talent.

Coaches were primary culprits to the blunders that cost them 3 games...they must learn from it and during bye week

They must figure out

Red Zone offense

Complimentary Football

Playing Multiple

My frustration is with the fact that this team can't draft talent  
JohnB : 11/10/2021 5:57 am : link
I know the draft is "Hit or Miss" but the string of bad drafting beyond the 2nd round is just too painful to watch (or ignore). In the later rounds is where great teams are built and the Giants haven't gotten the later round talents because they haven't got the people who can find that talent.

Until that aspect of the Giants organization is fixed, we will be mired in some bad football. And that could be for a very long time.
Every season  
Les in TO : 11/10/2021 6:25 am : link
Is a completely different story with roster changes and injuries . Barring a miracle the Giants aren’t making the playoffs. So while there are signs of hope, as a fan it’s hard to swallow another season with no playoffs to look forward to. And they were relatively healthy at the start of the season when the losses piled up.
A good point was made  
anon837 : 11/10/2021 6:48 am : link
I heard someone on the radio years ago mention 2 ways to determine the quality of your roster. He said that if there was an expansion draft, how many of your players would you protect. Also, how many of your drafted players would you value enough to give them a competitive second contract. I don't see a lot of special on his team. I know Toney has a rare skillset in the open field and Thomas, before the injury, was pointing upwards. Ojulari and McKinney are showing some glimpses. I'm struggling a bit after that. I know people would mention Jones, but with the going rate of QBs, is he really going to be worth that money? I like Jones but want to see him broaden those shoulders and put this team on his back.
I  
thomasa510 : 11/10/2021 6:48 am : link
I find the OL an indicator of an issue.

The giants have extended tons of resources in recent years and have never been able to solve this weakness.

Sure picks sometimes don’t work out but the amount of failures is indicative of a problem larger than a failed draft pick and may be coaching or scouting or otherwise.

At least Thomas seems like a solid pick but at number #4 overall he should be.
We have a couple of  
BigBlueJ : 11/10/2021 6:53 am : link
million in CAP space for next year for a 3-6 record half way through the year. This is not a roster filled with young players, we blew our load for the next few years and will have to turn over the roster again.

Can you imagine this organization pays Daniel Jones a QB market contract and all we done through out his rookie contract is play under or at .500 ball

Where will this organization be then? Do you see a lot of teams building around a 35-40 million dollar slightly above average QB and making runs to the playoffs?

This rebuild is an utter failure, save a few nice pieces. The Giants again have done everything ass backwards and it looks like they plan to double down on the strategy.
RE: A good point was made  
stoneman : 11/10/2021 7:01 am : link
In comment 15450530 anon837 said:
Quote:
I heard someone on the radio years ago mention 2 ways to determine the quality of your roster. He said that if there was an expansion draft, how many of your players would you protect. Also, how many of your drafted players would you value enough to give them a competitive second contract. I don't see a lot of special on his team. I know Toney has a rare skillset in the open field and Thomas, before the injury, was pointing upwards. Ojulari and McKinney are showing some glimpses. I'm struggling a bit after that. I know people would mention Jones, but with the going rate of QBs, is he really going to be worth that money? I like Jones but want to see him broaden those shoulders and put this team on his back.


why would you not also add Martinez, Gates, and some other decent, yet replaceable vets that make up the roster. Can't be just youngins.
Here is one thing that we can agree on...  
EricJ : 11/10/2021 7:05 am : link
that would point to MARGINAL improvement...

We do not get blown out as much as we used to. We are in most of these games.
RE: RE: A good point was made  
BigBlueJ : 11/10/2021 7:06 am : link
In comment 15450536 stoneman said:
Quote:
In comment 15450530 anon837 said:


Quote:


I heard someone on the radio years ago mention 2 ways to determine the quality of your roster. He said that if there was an expansion draft, how many of your players would you protect. Also, how many of your drafted players would you value enough to give them a competitive second contract. I don't see a lot of special on his team. I know Toney has a rare skillset in the open field and Thomas, before the injury, was pointing upwards. Ojulari and McKinney are showing some glimpses. I'm struggling a bit after that. I know people would mention Jones, but with the going rate of QBs, is he really going to be worth that money? I like Jones but want to see him broaden those shoulders and put this team on his back.



why would you not also add Martinez, Gates, and some other decent, yet replaceable vets that make up the roster. Can't be just youngins.


Gates it the best of the worst. Martinez will be in his last year of his contract when he comes back from injury, so we have seen the best of him. Total cluster fuck this past 4 years have been, and yet we fans still try to squint real hard looking for micro-positives.
I have heard Phil Simms  
joeinpa : 11/10/2021 7:15 am : link
Say several times over the years:

“It is almost impossible to overcome poor offensive line play, it has a negative domino impact over the entire team “

How much better this team would be with a better line is hard to tell. But on the last third down play before the final field goal, a conversion that would have clinched the game, both tackles were beaten immediately off he snap, it was pathetic. This happens often on sure passing downs

That is bad O line play, and I think explains much about the Giants lack of a down field game and problems in the red zone.

How often do the Giants have to keep someone in to help one of the tackles, or maybe both sometimes.

Giants offense will not be better til this is fixed.
I think we have forgotten how putrid we were in Shurmur's 1st year and  
edavisiii : 11/10/2021 7:32 am : link
McAdoo's Last. I went to the Patriots Giants game in 2019 and the Giants looked like a JV team. We are far from being a great team but..... As mediocre as the OL is when healthy we have more talent. I always go back to the Baldy's breakdown during Shurmur's 1st year when he asked "How is the Giants offensive problems Eli Manning's fault when his 3 interior lineman are facedown in the mud?" Remember Jerry, John Greco and Spencer Pulley being rag dolled on every play? At least our OL is getting some movement in the run game. Our tackles were bad against the pass on Sunday but even Solder was moving the pile in the run game. Our center and LG leave a lot to be desired but lets face it they are backups. The defense has talent. I have said for a year and a half we are 2 pass rushers away from being a great defense. Roche and Ojulari are not great pass rushers at this stage but there presence has added a lot to the defense as a whole. I think they will get better. This team feels a lot like the 1985 team where after years of sucking you could see the roster taking shape and the foundation of a good team being built. Key...don't blow this next draft. we have 2 firsts and 2 thirds. We need more pass rush, Interior OL and LBs. Best player available is great when you are rebuilding or someone exceptional slips to you but its time to manipulate the draft so you fill needs and improve talent.
At least we re competitive now  
5BowlsSoon : 11/10/2021 7:33 am : link
But no doubt, we have taken on Major injuries that are difficult to overcome. I mean look at Dallas last year when their OL was decimated…and then even last week when one guy was out- their starting LT.

Losing Blake Martinez hurt a lot…and all those offensive skilled players plus 3 on the OL. That is a lot….but yet we still manage to be in every game, save the Rams.

No doubt, the decision to not draft Slater and to add a #1 next year plus Toney can be debated and discussed but I have to think we should be able to draft another stud OL guy in round one this coming year …..combine him with Toney, and I’m feeling much better for 2022. And that’s not even mentioning the second draft pick in round one for 2022.

So yeah….getting back all out injured players + these two first round draft picks + the maturation of our young players….we should be looking much better in 2022.

One final note- it does appear our people are doing a decent job picking up players to round out the 53 when they see a need. Like this year, we picked up Price, Skura, Bredeson, and Roche. All these guys have helped to fill voids to keep us from having huge gaps. Stuff like this does help.
It’s not so much we haven’t added talent  
BillT : 11/10/2021 7:38 am : link
But I don’t think they haven’t approached the rebuild the right way. DG identified the OL as a priority. An OL rebuild take a lot of players and time. Yet, they t didn’t really begin working on that that until year three. They needed high numbers of players everywhere but didn’t take advantage of say a trade down for picks when they has the #2 pick and then gave up picks to trade up the next year. They minimized their draft capital when they should have been looking to maximize it and didn’t stay focused on the priorities they established. Four years later and the OL, even healthy, isn’t finished.
RE: My frustration is with the fact that this team can't draft talent  
DannyDimes : 11/10/2021 8:02 am : link
In comment 15450519 JohnB said:
Quote:
I know the draft is "Hit or Miss" but the string of bad drafting beyond the 2nd round is just too painful to watch (or ignore). In the later rounds is where great teams are built and the Giants haven't gotten the later round talents because they haven't got the people who can find that talent.

Until that aspect of the Giants organization is fixed, we will be mired in some bad football. And that could be for a very long time.


This is bogus BS talk. I posted in another forum, DG in his 4 drafts is ranked by Pro Football Focus as being in the top ten drafting over his four years.
RE: It’s not so much we haven’t added talent  
DannyDimes : 11/10/2021 8:05 am : link
In comment 15450552 BillT said:
Quote:
But I don’t think they haven’t approached the rebuild the right way. DG identified the OL as a priority. An OL rebuild take a lot of players and time. Yet, they t didn’t really begin working on that that until year three. They needed high numbers of players everywhere but didn’t take advantage of say a trade down for picks when they has the #2 pick and then gave up picks to trade up the next year. They minimized their draft capital when they should have been looking to maximize it and didn’t stay focused on the priorities they established. Four years later and the OL, even healthy, isn’t finished.


No doubt they have swung and missed many times on the o-line. But they have also spent HUGH resources on the o-line. It's not for lack of trying...


RE: RE: My frustration is with the fact that this team can't draft talent  
Mike in NY : 11/10/2021 8:10 am : link
In comment 15450564 DannyDimes said:
Quote:
In comment 15450519 JohnB said:


Quote:


I know the draft is "Hit or Miss" but the string of bad drafting beyond the 2nd round is just too painful to watch (or ignore). In the later rounds is where great teams are built and the Giants haven't gotten the later round talents because they haven't got the people who can find that talent.

Until that aspect of the Giants organization is fixed, we will be mired in some bad football. And that could be for a very long time.



This is bogus BS talk. I posted in another forum, DG in his 4 drafts is ranked by Pro Football Focus as being in the top ten drafting over his four years.


This is why you can’t look at raw numbers. DG has “hit” at positions that are either (1) not terribly important in today’s game and/or (2) not having a great difference of impact of league average to above average to elite as part of a team game. He has failed miserably at positions that are important to success and where increasing quality is noticeable (QB and OL).
RE: My frustration is with the fact that this team can't draft talent  
upnyg : 11/10/2021 8:18 am : link
In comment 15450519 JohnB said:
Quote:
I know the draft is "Hit or Miss" but the string of bad drafting beyond the 2nd round is just too painful to watch (or ignore). In the later rounds is where great teams are built and the Giants haven't gotten the later round talents because they haven't got the people who can find that talent.

Until that aspect of the Giants organization is fixed, we will be mired in some bad football. And that could be for a very long time.

I dont see it. Giants have drafted average to good the last few dradts overall.
Feeling OK  
upnyg : 11/10/2021 8:22 am : link
I dont feel good until the Giants play better on both sides of the line. However, this team is not as far away as they played earlier.

Coach is young and learning, Jones is still trying to figure it out. Thomas was making strides until injury. We're learning. I think as long as Judge doesnt lose the team, he may stick around.

However, at the same time. im not going to be upset if they get a new GM and coach for 2022.
While it is obvious the Giants coaching staff has a low level of  
NYGgolfer : 11/10/2021 8:32 am : link
of confidence in the Offensive Line to pass protect based on the extra protection schemes, short throws and conservative calls. I just don't know how much confidence they have in Daniel Jones though either.

How can there possibly be so little targeting of the wide receivers for plays down the field? Very little play action even when the running game was doing decent. And minimal designed runs for Jones the last month? After he killed it in that WFT game early in the season.

The Giants may not have a dynamic Offense, but it seems Judge/Garrett don't want to even use Jones if they don't have to. Do they still feel good about him or not?
RE: RE: RE: My frustration is with the fact that this team can't draft talent  
DannyDimes : 11/10/2021 8:35 am : link
In comment 15450575 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 15450564 DannyDimes said:


Quote:


In comment 15450519 JohnB said:


Quote:


I know the draft is "Hit or Miss" but the string of bad drafting beyond the 2nd round is just too painful to watch (or ignore). In the later rounds is where great teams are built and the Giants haven't gotten the later round talents because they haven't got the people who can find that talent.

Until that aspect of the Giants organization is fixed, we will be mired in some bad football. And that could be for a very long time.



This is bogus BS talk. I posted in another forum, DG in his 4 drafts is ranked by Pro Football Focus as being in the top ten drafting over his four years.



This is why you can’t look at raw numbers. DG has “hit” at positions that are either (1) not terribly important in today’s game and/or (2) not having a great difference of impact of league average to above average to elite as part of a team game. He has failed miserably at positions that are important to success and where increasing quality is noticeable (QB and OL).



LOL So left tackle is not "terribly important"? OR maybe Quarterback, not "terribly important"? How about Safety? Also not important?


RE: RE: RE: RE: My frustration is with the fact that this team can't draft talent  
Mike in NY : 11/10/2021 8:45 am : link
In comment 15450589 DannyDimes said:
Quote:
In comment 15450575 Mike in NY said:


Quote:


In comment 15450564 DannyDimes said:


Quote:


In comment 15450519 JohnB said:


Quote:


I know the draft is "Hit or Miss" but the string of bad drafting beyond the 2nd round is just too painful to watch (or ignore). In the later rounds is where great teams are built and the Giants haven't gotten the later round talents because they haven't got the people who can find that talent.

Until that aspect of the Giants organization is fixed, we will be mired in some bad football. And that could be for a very long time.



This is bogus BS talk. I posted in another forum, DG in his 4 drafts is ranked by Pro Football Focus as being in the top ten drafting over his four years.



This is why you can’t look at raw numbers. DG has “hit” at positions that are either (1) not terribly important in today’s game and/or (2) not having a great difference of impact of league average to above average to elite as part of a team game. He has failed miserably at positions that are important to success and where increasing quality is noticeable (QB and OL).




LOL So left tackle is not "terribly important"? OR maybe Quarterback, not "terribly important"? How about Safety? Also not important?



He has not hit at QB. LT is important, but Thomas has not played a full season at the level needed. He has shown the potential, but that is still incomplete. If you look at the top teams, I would not say that Safety play is a key reason why they are where they are.
I would also mention  
Mike in NY : 11/10/2021 9:11 am : link
If you look at the top teams with their OL you will see at least league average starters across the board. The number of above average and elite will determine precisely how good the OL is, but the one thing that is imperative is no below average starter or worse because opposing D's will always find a way to exploit the weakest link on the OL. Thomas has at least shown that at LT if he can stay healthy. Peart has shown flashes of tools that indicate he has potential at RT, but he has not shown it with enough consistency. Gates was developing at C but that injury is difficult to get back to the same level. The biggest issue is the OG spots. I have not seen anything to indicate that anybody that DG has brought in can be even a league average starter. When you have issues at OG it is a problem because the fastest way to a QB is straight up the gut and it causes problems for the OT because if the OG does not pick up stunts and the like correctly, he can get in the way of the OT or try to block the same guy the OT is blocking leaving a free rusher. Not to mention, what QB likes pressure directly in his face? In this day and age I would be willing to say that the least important position on an OL is RT (assuming not a lefthanded QB) as long as you have a guy who can at least keep his guy wide long enough to give QB time to react. When you see Darnay Holmes flying out of nowhere from deep it almost never works because even the fastest player can't get to QB in time. If your RT is smart enough to read where the pass rush is coming from and can just force a longer path to the QB that is most important.
Jason Garrett's offense  
AdamBrag : 11/10/2021 9:20 am : link
requires nearly every player on offense to be a high level starter. We are spending near the top of the league at the WR position, we took a RB at #2 overall, and our QB was #6 overall.

If they need everything to be perfect for this offense to work, it's a poorly designed offense.
RE: RE: My frustration is with the fact that this team can't draft talent  
joeinpa : 11/10/2021 9:28 am : link
In comment 15450564 DannyDimes said:
Quote:
In comment 15450519 JohnB said:


Quote:


I know the draft is "Hit or Miss" but the string of bad drafting beyond the 2nd round is just too painful to watch (or ignore). In the later rounds is where great teams are built and the Giants haven't gotten the later round talents because they haven't got the people who can find that talent.

Until that aspect of the Giants organization is fixed, we will be mired in some bad football. And that could be for a very long time.



This is bogus BS talk. I posted in another forum, DG in his 4 drafts is ranked by Pro Football Focus as being in the top ten drafting over his four years.


Danny, he s made some good moves. But drafting a running back at #2, especially when we see it n the rearview mirror what he passed on, put this team in a very tough situation

There is really no forgiving that pick, it is reason enough to move on from DG. It shows a lack of awareness for how successful teams are put together today.
RE: At least we re competitive now  
TyreeHelmet : 11/10/2021 9:49 am : link
In comment 15450550 5BowlsSoon said:
Quote:
But no doubt, we have taken on Major injuries that are difficult to overcome. I mean look at Dallas last year when their OL was decimated…and then even last week when one guy was out- their starting LT.

Losing Blake Martinez hurt a lot…and all those offensive skilled players plus 3 on the OL. That is a lot….but yet we still manage to be in every game, save the Rams.

No doubt, the decision to not draft Slater and to add a #1 next year plus Toney can be debated and discussed but I have to think we should be able to draft another stud OL guy in round one this coming year …..combine him with Toney, and I’m feeling much better for 2022. And that’s not even mentioning the second draft pick in round one for 2022.

So yeah….getting back all out injured players + these two first round draft picks + the maturation of our young players….we should be looking much better in 2022.

One final note- it does appear our people are doing a decent job picking up players to round out the 53 when they see a need. Like this year, we picked up Price, Skura, Bredeson, and Roche. All these guys have helped to fill voids to keep us from having huge gaps. Stuff like this does help.


They were in the Cowboys game? Dallas could have easily scored 50 if they wanted to. The Broncos game wasn't really close either.

It's not all bad but lets be honest they aren't in great shape for next year. They are capped out with some massive holes to fill. You would expect more in year 4 of a rebuild with where they have drafted and the money/ trades they have made.

And lets be honest- Jones remains a huge question mark...
RE: I have heard Phil Simms  
Johnny5 : 11/10/2021 9:55 am : link
In comment 15450542 joeinpa said:
Quote:
Say several times over the years:

“It is almost impossible to overcome poor offensive line play, it has a negative domino impact over the entire team “

How much better this team would be with a better line is hard to tell. But on the last third down play before the final field goal, a conversion that would have clinched the game, both tackles were beaten immediately off he snap, it was pathetic. This happens often on sure passing downs

That is bad O line play, and I think explains much about the Giants lack of a down field game and problems in the red zone.

How often do the Giants have to keep someone in to help one of the tackles, or maybe both sometimes.

Giants offense will not be better til this is fixed.

I agree with this 100%. The thing that really sucked was losing Gates this year. With Thomas hurt that's the 2 best lineman on an OL we seemingly started to improve. It's ridiculous how quickly Jones is under duress on literally every other play. I still don't know how anyone feels they can properly assess him without at least middle tier line play over even just a few games for crissakes.
RE: RE: At least we re competitive now  
Johnny5 : 11/10/2021 9:56 am : link
In comment 15450651 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:


They were in the Cowboys game? Dallas could have easily scored 50 if they wanted to. The Broncos game wasn't really close either.

It's not all bad but lets be honest they aren't in great shape for next year. They are capped out with some massive holes to fill. You would expect more in year 4 of a rebuild with where they have drafted and the money/ trades they have made.

And lets be honest- Jones remains a huge question mark...

They were absolutely 100% in that Cowboys game until Jones and Saquon went down.
i don't feel good....  
riceneggs : 11/10/2021 10:12 am : link
I don't feel good about where we are, here's why

QB - DJ looks like he has the potential to be average at best. We all know "it" when we see it. Unfortunately, DJ doesn't have it. So we're probably stuck with an average Qb for the next 10 years

RB - I'm over SB, alot of us are. But here's the problem. If he comes back and has a decent 7 games, then has a good 5th year...he's gonna ask for CMC money. And I hope whoever the GM is at that time doesn't pay a RB 20+ million per

WR - I like Toney. Golladay looks like a waste of money. Shepard is declining

TE - Engram...mehhh. Rudolph...mehhh. Smith...mehhhhhh

OLine - been fixing that for 10 years with no end in site

DLine - LW...does he play up to his contract? no
We have no edge rushers

LB - trash unit

CB - Bradberry has been a question this year. AJackson looks average to decent

S - mehhh
the thing to feel good about is wins vs. 3 non-losing teams  
Eric on Li : 11/10/2021 10:16 am : link
in particular the Saints and Raiders have been good teams this year. Between them they have beat several good teams. Packers, Bucs, Ravens, Steelers. Those 2 wins are progress and probably on the level of the Seahawks win last year. Beating a 3-3 Carolina team wasn't a trophy but it also wasn't nothing given all the injuries on offense that day.

All in all if you look at record vs. teams over .500 they were 2-4.

They were 1-2 in games against teams .500 or worse, and in particular the WFT and ATL losses were inexcusable because they really controlled both games and weren't all that beat up by injuries yet. Losing both on last second FGs was a failure of game management.

Even with the injuries and difficult schedule it seems pretty clear the team on the field has enough talent to compete week in week out though they are clearly outclassed by the top teams like LAR/DAL especially if at any health disadvantage. Fortunately they only have 2 games left vs. teams in that category, and with Tyron/Dak banged up the injury disadvantage may be shifting.

In the second half what I'd like to see is a winning record vs. teams .500 or worse and a .500 record against winning teams.

They have 5 games left vs. teams under .500 so that should be 3-2 minimum.

They have 3 games left vs. teams over .500 so without a tie that will either be a winning record or a losing one.

7 or 8 wins depending on quality/context is the minimum of expectation the rest of the way to consider this season progress. Anything below that would be an outright failure. Above that would be a very strong outcome given all the injuries. Any of us would have signed off for a winning season preseason sight unseen.
i'd love to see them upset Tampa  
djm : 11/10/2021 10:31 am : link
let that be our Seattle 2020 moment and rather than fade like last year, keep it going. However, losing to Tampa but going 2-1 would work too. 5-7 but again, don't fade.

See what happens. D isn't terrible anymore but it's gonna need help from the offense. Need to start scoring 25+ without any defensive scoring.

We need Barkley back. Then you'd have a nice two headed monster at RB. Grind em out with Booker and hit the HR with Barkley. Can we please just have two fucking months of Barkley when the games matter? Is that asking too much...
Yes and No  
AnnapolisMike : 11/10/2021 10:41 am : link
OL, OL, OL. That has been the drumbeat for the past 8-10 years. They NEVER have fielded a good unit. I am optimistic they will win 5+ to end the season. I want to see Jones with Thomas back and the OL a bit more settled. Let's see what we have with Barkley and Jones and go from there. If this team fails to get to 7 wins I hope Mara really changes course with a GM from Outside the organization who has no restrictions.
it's a bad sign when you pick your franchise RB and QB  
islander1 : 11/10/2021 10:50 am : link
and today, you aren't 100% convinced on giving them a second contract.

THAT is bad drafting.
RE: We have a couple of  
Chris684 : 11/10/2021 10:55 am : link
In comment 15450533 BigBlueJ said:
Quote:
million in CAP space for next year for a 3-6 record half way through the year. This is not a roster filled with young players, we blew our load for the next few years and will have to turn over the roster again.

Can you imagine this organization pays Daniel Jones a QB market contract and all we done through out his rookie contract is play under or at .500 ball

Where will this organization be then? Do you see a lot of teams building around a 35-40 million dollar slightly above average QB and making runs to the playoffs?

This rebuild is an utter failure, save a few nice pieces. The Giants again have done everything ass backwards and it looks like they plan to double down on the strategy.


5 premium draft picks coming up. Why no mention of that?
RE: While it is obvious the Giants coaching staff has a low level of  
joeinpa : 11/10/2021 10:59 am : link
In comment 15450587 NYGgolfer said:
Quote:
of confidence in the Offensive Line to pass protect based on the extra protection schemes, short throws and conservative calls. I just don't know how much confidence they have in Daniel Jones though either.

How can there possibly be so little targeting of the wide receivers for plays down the field? Very little play action even when the running game was doing decent. And minimal designed runs for Jones the last month? After he killed it in that WFT game early in the season.

The Giants may not have a dynamic Offense, but it seems Judge/Garrett don't want to even use Jones if they don't have to. Do they still feel good about him or not?


That is. Great question. I m thinking they don’t feel good about him behind the current line, but don’t know if that equates to no confidence in him.

Even though offense was so vanilla he did make two throws that demonstrated his accuracy, especially to Golladay on that 3rd down conversion.

Threaded the needle while getting blasted.
I see  
djm : 11/10/2021 11:03 am : link
we are gonna completely beat the cap space thing to death. Never mind the nuance to the discussion or that we weren't supposed to have cap room last offseason either. Just go crazy with it every day.

The Giants have a lot of veteran guys making money and yes there higher up against the cap this coming year but not in 2022 and some of the highly paid "busts" will be factors if they get healthy. But again, never mind that. Just scream cap space on every fucking thread.
RE: it's a bad sign when you pick your franchise RB and QB  
joeinpa : 11/10/2021 11:11 am : link
In comment 15450684 islander1 said:
Quote:
and today, you aren't 100% convinced on giving them a second contract.

THAT is bad drafting.


Fair. But I think maybe the Giants are sure about Jones
RE: I see  
chick310 : 11/10/2021 11:18 am : link
In comment 15450691 djm said:
Quote:
we are gonna completely beat the cap space thing to death. Never mind the nuance to the discussion or that we weren't supposed to have cap room last offseason either. Just go crazy with it every day.

The Giants have a lot of veteran guys making money and yes there higher up against the cap this coming year but not in 2022 and some of the highly paid "busts" will be factors if they get healthy. But again, never mind that. Just scream cap space on every fucking thread.


Notice all the contract restructurings that took place just when the season started. In fact, there is a thread today how they changed the kicker's contract just to find $300,000.

They did some unhealthy things this year to sign those players and are looking for nickels and dimes to cover it.
RE: it's a bad sign when you pick your franchise RB and QB  
Eric on Li : 11/10/2021 11:21 am : link
In comment 15450684 islander1 said:
Quote:
and today, you aren't 100% convinced on giving them a second contract.

THAT is bad drafting.


this is kind of silly. Nobody would have doubts on Barkley if he was healthy - and in college he had a track record of staying healthy. He's had about as bad of injury luck as a player can have since turning pro but that's not generally something that can be anticipated.

and before everyone says "but he's a rb" his issues haven't been usage related from repetitive contact. He's sprained his ankle twice on awkward falls running routes as a receiver and he tore his ACL in the open field against Chicago.

it is what it is and the injuries happened - no player who has missed as much time as him would ever get picked #2 overall if there was a way to predict that. But there isn't, just hindsight.
RE: i don't feel good....  
DannyDimes : 11/10/2021 11:24 am : link
In comment 15450664 riceneggs said:
Quote:
I don't feel good about where we are, here's why

QB - DJ looks like he has the potential to be average at best. We all know "it" when we see it. Unfortunately, DJ doesn't have it. So we're probably stuck with an average Qb for the next 10 years

RB - I'm over SB, alot of us are. But here's the problem. If he comes back and has a decent 7 games, then has a good 5th year...he's gonna ask for CMC money. And I hope whoever the GM is at that time doesn't pay a RB 20+ million per

WR - I like Toney. Golladay looks like a waste of money. Shepard is declining

TE - Engram...mehhh. Rudolph...mehhh. Smith...mehhhhhh

OLine - been fixing that for 10 years with no end in site

DLine - LW...does he play up to his contract? no
We have no edge rushers

LB - trash unit

CB - Bradberry has been a question this year. AJackson looks average to decent

S - mehhh


DJ looks about the same as Eli 2+ years in. Eli turned out a little belter than average, ya think?

Galloday looks like a waste of money? You're an idiot if you think you can judge that on 9 games.



The talent on this team at the key positions is terrible  
Rudy5757 : 11/10/2021 11:28 am : link
Our pass rush unit may be the worst in the league. Our OL is one of the worst in the league even before the injuries we still had major holes. When Free agency happens you have to overspend to get average talent and when you need players at expensive positions you wind up with a Nate Solder.

We have pretty much searched the bottom of the barrell for pass rushers. We hot on Bradberry, LW and Martinez but we are paying for it. Its not like we got them on a bargain.

Despite having multiple drafts with top 10 and top 15 picks we still have no All Pro caliber players or even pro bowl players. To me Barkley was one of the worst picks not because he doesnt have talent, but because we drafted a player at a position that is a budget position for the most part and he came in making top 5 money. You have to invest your premium draft picks at premium positions or expensive positions when you have premium picks. You have to pick for Value even if you have a stong unit like we did in the past when we drafted pass rushers in the top 3 rounds every year.
There are many things  
The Jake : 11/10/2021 11:37 am : link
about the optimist mindset around this team that I don't get, but one in particular stands out in this post - how the OP just glosses right over the fact that we have so many injuries.

Why shouldn't the owner/front office/GM/coaches/training staff be responsible for all of these injuries? The owner is responsible for the field and the training facilities. The GM is responsible for choosing the coaches, and the coaches are responsible for choosing the training staff, generally speaking.

Shouldn't all of these individuals bear some responsibility for the avalanche of injuries to key players this team always seems to have?
I am reserving judgement until the end of the season  
PatersonPlank : 11/10/2021 11:40 am : link
I agree with a lot of the above, on both sides, and I think we are poised to go either way here. I am looking forward to seeing what happens when we get the injured back, and with the hardest part of the schedule behind us.

I think this will be a very telling 2nd half of the season for the Giants and a lot of players/coaches. Are we turning a corner, or are we just giving more of the same.
Rudy +1  
JonC : 11/10/2021 11:54 am : link
The biggest issues right now are the talent, namely the key talent. Not nearly enough ROI from the top 6 picks, while the OL and Edge talent continues to be below average to roughly average.

Until these positions are upgraded, or incumbent starters begin to make LEAPS forward, not much will change in terms of opening a contender window.

It's good to see them play their hearts out each game. Still much to clean up with regards to discipline and playing smarter, cleaner football.
RE: RE: it's a bad sign when you pick your franchise RB and QB  
chick310 : 11/10/2021 12:03 pm : link
In comment 15450707 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15450684 islander1 said:


Quote:


and today, you aren't 100% convinced on giving them a second contract.

THAT is bad drafting.



this is kind of silly. Nobody would have doubts on Barkley if he was healthy - and in college he had a track record of staying healthy. He's had about as bad of injury luck as a player can have since turning pro but that's not generally something that can be anticipated.



Of course there are doubts about Barkley, even if he were healthy. Not that he isn't talented in many ways, but he also has some flaws in his game that have been pointed out.

Dancing behind LOS, looking too much for home-runs, not hitting and running through creases hard enough, and pass protection issues are the common themes discussed.
Huge draft resources have been spent on the offense  
Go Terps : 11/10/2021 12:04 pm : link
And still they average under 20 PPG. And one more year of the cheap rookie quarterback.

They're not in a good place at all.
RE: The talent on this team at the key positions is terrible  
chick310 : 11/10/2021 12:09 pm : link
In comment 15450710 Rudy5757 said:
Quote:
Our pass rush unit may be the worst in the league. Our OL is one of the worst in the league even before the injuries we still had major holes. When Free agency happens you have to overspend to get average talent and when you need players at expensive positions you wind up with a Nate Solder.

We have pretty much searched the bottom of the barrell for pass rushers. We hot on Bradberry, LW and Martinez but we are paying for it. Its not like we got them on a bargain.

Despite having multiple drafts with top 10 and top 15 picks we still have no All Pro caliber players or even pro bowl players. To me Barkley was one of the worst picks not because he doesnt have talent, but because we drafted a player at a position that is a budget position for the most part and he came in making top 5 money. You have to invest your premium draft picks at premium positions or expensive positions when you have premium picks. You have to pick for Value even if you have a stong unit like we did in the past when we drafted pass rushers in the top 3 rounds every year.


All-Pros - None
Pro Bowlers - Graham Gano and maybe Leonard Williams
The question to me comes down to Jones  
UberAlias : 11/10/2021 12:13 pm : link
OL and LBs are major weaknesses but good enough talent in other places. We can upgrade pass rusher and Oline with the help of our extra 1. But now with Jones falling into the category of QBs who you can with with, but not strong enough to carry the team like the elite guys can, will that be good enough? IMO, if you stick with Jones which I believe they will, they have to sign him to a contract that is not inhibitive to bringing in the talent around him he'll require to succeed. It can't be one of these, he signs one of the largest ever contracts because he's the most recently signed stating QB kind of deals. This is where being honest in our self scouring has burned us in the past and why we need better in house decision makers.
It's also the biggest reason (among many)  
UberAlias : 11/10/2021 12:16 pm : link
we cannot stick with DG under any circumstances. He's too emotionally tied to DJs, and that's far too important a decision to be left to the overly invested.
Do we draft talent?  
manh george : 11/10/2021 12:21 pm : link
Surely not enough, but Thomas is going to be very close to a star, and Toney could well become a star when he gets fully healthy. To get Toney as our first rounder and add all of those draft picks for next year was pretty nice.

Toney is going to have a lot of DBs in the league terrified by double moves before the ball gets to him and more double moves afterward--and a strong, compact body.
Completely understand your optimism.  
Thegratefulhead : 11/10/2021 12:53 pm : link
This is the best 9 game record the Giants have had since 2017.

Real progress.

In 4 more years we should be able to achieve a stellar 4-5, put your party dress on.
RE: i don't feel good....  
BigBlueJ : 11/10/2021 1:14 pm : link
In comment 15450664 riceneggs said:
Quote:
I don't feel good about where we are, here's why

QB - DJ looks like he has the potential to be average at best. We all know "it" when we see it. Unfortunately, DJ doesn't have it. So we're probably stuck with an average Qb for the next 10 years

RB - I'm over SB, alot of us are. But here's the problem. If he comes back and has a decent 7 games, then has a good 5th year...he's gonna ask for CMC money. And I hope whoever the GM is at that time doesn't pay a RB 20+ million per

WR - I like Toney. Golladay looks like a waste of money. Shepard is declining

TE - Engram...mehhh. Rudolph...mehhh. Smith...mehhhhhh

OLine - been fixing that for 10 years with no end in site

DLine - LW...does he play up to his contract? no
We have no edge rushers

LB - trash unit

CB - Bradberry has been a question this year. AJackson looks average to decent

S - mehhh


LW is absolutely playing up to his contract, not sure what you are expecting. He is a top interior Defensive lineman in football.
LW has cranked it up again  
JonC : 11/10/2021 1:17 pm : link
BUT this is why it's not super smart to invest elite dollars in a 3-4 DE ...
RE: LW has cranked it up again  
Angel Eyes : 11/10/2021 1:19 pm : link
In comment 15450813 JonC said:
Quote:
BUT this is why it's not super smart to invest elite dollars in a 3-4 DE ...

What did Gettleman see in Williams (nothing against Williams of course)? At the time of the trade, we had three good DTs in Tomlinson, Hill, and Lawrence.
RE: it's a bad sign when you pick your franchise RB and QB  
Mike from Ohio : 11/10/2021 2:02 pm : link
In comment 15450684 islander1 said:
Quote:
and today, you aren't 100% convinced on giving them a second contract.

THAT is bad drafting.


This.

You can't pick guys at #2 and then at #6, and be wondering if you should even try and re-sign them for a second contract. That is squandering valuable picks.

This team has a few young pieces worth keeping (Thomas, McKinney, Toney, Ojulari) and a few vets that can be part of the solution (LW, Martinez...maybe Bradberry). The rest? Largely players that can be replaced.
RE: RE: i don't feel good....  
riceneggs : 11/10/2021 2:13 pm : link
In comment 15450708 DannyDimes said:
Quote:
In comment 15450664 riceneggs said:


Quote:


I don't feel good about where we are, here's why

QB - DJ looks like he has the potential to be average at best. We all know "it" when we see it. Unfortunately, DJ doesn't have it. So we're probably stuck with an average Qb for the next 10 years

RB - I'm over SB, alot of us are. But here's the problem. If he comes back and has a decent 7 games, then has a good 5th year...he's gonna ask for CMC money. And I hope whoever the GM is at that time doesn't pay a RB 20+ million per

WR - I like Toney. Golladay looks like a waste of money. Shepard is declining

TE - Engram...mehhh. Rudolph...mehhh. Smith...mehhhhhh

OLine - been fixing that for 10 years with no end in site

DLine - LW...does he play up to his contract? no
We have no edge rushers

LB - trash unit

CB - Bradberry has been a question this year. AJackson looks average to decent

S - mehhh



DJ looks about the same as Eli 2+ years in. Eli turned out a little belter than average, ya think?

Galloday looks like a waste of money? You're an idiot if you think you can judge that on 9 games.




I can only speak in the present. So, no, Golladays 310 yards and 0 touchdowns isn't worth 17 million/year

And Eli turned out a little better because he had top notch defenses winning games for him
RE: RE: i don't feel good....  
riceneggs : 11/10/2021 2:15 pm : link
In comment 15450810 BigBlueJ said:
Quote:
In comment 15450664 riceneggs said:


Quote:


I don't feel good about where we are, here's why

QB - DJ looks like he has the potential to be average at best. We all know "it" when we see it. Unfortunately, DJ doesn't have it. So we're probably stuck with an average Qb for the next 10 years

RB - I'm over SB, alot of us are. But here's the problem. If he comes back and has a decent 7 games, then has a good 5th year...he's gonna ask for CMC money. And I hope whoever the GM is at that time doesn't pay a RB 20+ million per

WR - I like Toney. Golladay looks like a waste of money. Shepard is declining

TE - Engram...mehhh. Rudolph...mehhh. Smith...mehhhhhh

OLine - been fixing that for 10 years with no end in site

DLine - LW...does he play up to his contract? no
We have no edge rushers

LB - trash unit

CB - Bradberry has been a question this year. AJackson looks average to decent

S - mehhh



LW is absolutely playing up to his contract, not sure what you are expecting. He is a top interior Defensive lineman in football.


LW is the 4th highest paid DL in the league, behind Bosa, myles garrett and A Donald

He doesn't come close to affecting the game the way those guys do. It's not even close
RE: There are many things  
Breeze_94 : 11/10/2021 2:51 pm : link
In comment 15450713 The Jake said:
Quote:
about the optimist mindset around this team that I don't get, but one in particular stands out in this post - how the OP just glosses right over the fact that we have so many injuries.

Why shouldn't the owner/front office/GM/coaches/training staff be responsible for all of these injuries? The owner is responsible for the field and the training facilities. The GM is responsible for choosing the coaches, and the coaches are responsible for choosing the training staff, generally speaking.

Shouldn't all of these individuals bear some responsibility for the avalanche of injuries to key players this team always seems to have?


Not sure if this was a serious comment or not, but injuries are really a year-to-year thing that nobody can predict. Last year, besides Barkley, McKinney and Jones for a few games, this same team remained very healthy.

Will some injuries happen every year? Yes. But the Giants have been hit extremely hard this year, losing several key players for multiple weeks. That was the point I was making. Chances are, the injury bug won't be this bad next year (knock on wood, of course). You add all of these key players back to the roster, plus 5 premium draft picks, and continued development from young guys (especially Robinson and Smith who we have not seen much of yet) and this team should continue trending up.

Plus, the schedule looks a bit lighter next year (I know, hard to predict that in Nov 2021, but at least based on performance this year). The Giants play the AFC South, and NFC North (Rodgers possibly not a part of GB either)

Now the turf field, I think that does have some effect (statistics back this up). Then again, Barkley and Golladay were injured in Dallas, Gates in Washington, Shep in KC. Barkley last year was in Chicago (on a grass field)

Thomas was rolled up on, nothing to do with the turf. Same with Toney in Dallas.

If injuries can't be used to excuse previous management  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/10/2021 3:03 pm : link
They shouldn't be used to excuse management now.

Reese lost at least 4 star players who should have been career giants due to injuries that de-railed their careers.

Phillips, Smith, Nicks, Cruz, JPP. Three first round picks, a second round pick, and an undrafted gem lost in the middle of their championship window. That didn't save Reese from getting killed with the "none of his players got second contracts" narratives when we wanted him run out of town, so why are injuries being used to spare DG when in 4 years he can't field a league average offensive line and he has to spend tens of millions of dollars on free agent defensive backs.
man, there's a lot of stockholm syndrome in evidence on this board  
PerpetualNervousness : 11/10/2021 3:26 pm : link
i get it. we've been hostage to bad football for so long you want to believe the folks in charge know what they're doing. this organization is a disaster. they struggle to identify NFL talent in either the draft or the free agent market, they grossly overvalue their own players, there's little evidence they spend any time doing serious internal self-evaluation at any level, and the overall philosophy of football from the GM on down seems rooted in an other NFL era. the fact that there are a few talented players on the roster is pretty meaningless. go back and look at the rosters from the lost era of the 60s and 70s. you'll see some talented players too. but it was meaningless because the franchise was incapable of building out a full roster, in part for many of the same reasons as today. until john mara is willing to let go of his need to surround himself only with people he's comfortable with, and brings in an outsider who can drill down into every aspect of football operations with the freedom to tear it apart and rebuild it, a la George Young, we'll be having the same conversations again next year at this time.
Injuries  
The Jake : 11/10/2021 4:08 pm : link
are not pure luck and don't occur in a vacuum.

Either the players are injury-prone, or poorly conditioned, or poorly coached/not put in the right place to succeed, or the facilities they use aren't up to par, or they're dummies and are constantly in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It could be one of those things, or it could be a combination of all of them.

But please don't give us the "better luck next time" routine. The management of this team bears responsibility if the players they choose, train, coach and put on the field constantly get injured.
It is hard to hit on a QB  
fkap : 11/11/2021 9:22 am : link
so I don't think Jones is an example of bad drafting.
Barkley, on the other hand:
-Bad strategy to take a RB so high with a bad OL
-Bad strategy to pay a RB so much
-Bad strategy not to maximize draft capital
-Bad strategy to take a RB so high with holes in his game

hard to assess whether the injuries made him a bad pick, or whether all the arguments against taking him made him a bad pick.
...  
Jimmy Googs : 11/11/2021 9:44 am : link






I am more bothered by some of the players they have cut or not  
Ivan15 : 11/11/2021 9:48 am : link
Re-signed than I am about free agents they signed or players they drafted.

In the past 2 seasons, those decisions are made by Judge - not by DG.
My optimism is based on  
Now Mike in MD : 11/11/2021 11:43 am : link
the fact that I really think if we fix OL and ER, this is a quality team AND this draft sets up perfectly to fill those two holes.

The defense has performed very well the last few weeks. Jackson seems to be getting more comfortable in this scheme, LW is playing like a top 10 DL, Dex has improved, and McKinney has improved. The last three weeks they are playing like a Top 12 Defense. If we get a quality ER, that will make everyone on this Defense better but most especially LW and Dex. To me, get a quality ER and Martinez back and it's a top 8. Clearly a unit you can win with.

To me, the only thong holding back this offense is the OL. I think AT is turning into a stud. For us to fix the line in one offseason, two things have to happen -- gates needs to come back and Peart needs to become a quality starter either at RT or OG. Two holes can be filled in this draft, not 4.

But again, considering where the strength of this draft is, fixing those two issues is doable.
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