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Mayfield or DJones??

5BowlsSoon : 11/15/2021 7:12 am
Which one of these guys would you rather have starting on your team NEXT YEAR? A reason why is not required but would be nice.

Id appreciate it if you would allow for this discussion to be just between these two, by not adding other players or draft picks.

Choose one….

A…..Mayfield
B……Jones
C…….I will wait to see how this year pans out

Mayfield may be available, so this is not even unrealistic. And of course, it’s not etched in stone that the Giants have to hand Jones the crown.
B  
DonQuixote : 11/15/2021 7:21 am : link
.
Just sticking to the premise...  
bw in dc : 11/15/2021 7:29 am : link
It's a pretty easy choice - Mayfield. And I've never been a Mayfield fan.

But he has won big games. Last year, for example, he was terrific in the Browns playoff win over Pittsburgh. And his 2020 overall numbers were actually pretty damn good.

So give me the pedigree and the guy who I know can make plays in big moments.
C  
Sammo85 : 11/15/2021 7:32 am : link
With preference for an Option D that would be neither/upgrade.
Another boring and tiresome Jones debate thread  
Rick in Dallas : 11/15/2021 7:35 am : link
I will have a lot to say at the end of the year on DJ.
Both QB's are tough dudes.
Mayfield  
Straw Hat : 11/15/2021 7:38 am : link
Would have a meltdown with the ny media before camp even lets out. Hes not built for NY.
Mayfield NO  
George from PA : 11/15/2021 7:42 am : link
Jones TBD
I do not  
BigBlueJ : 11/15/2021 7:55 am : link
like Mayfield at all, he is very similar in a way to DJ, they need a strong team rolling on all cylinders to be successful. Don't ask them to fill in the gaps. But I will stick with the guy I came to the dance with.
c  
mpinmaine : 11/15/2021 7:59 am : link
hopeful for DJ to have a strong second half but there are a lot of red flags in his game currently
Neither as of this moment  
nygiants16 : 11/15/2021 8:00 am : link
things can change but as of right now i dont want either of them..

Mayfield yeah he won a couple of big games, but he js a game manager, he is not going to throw his team into victory, he makes a lot of mistakes, thinks he is better and more athletic than he is..

Jones has played well but doesnt take over, he has had oppurtunities to just put teams away or take the lead and jist cant make that play, whether its hr cant or is afraid to make a mistske either way its bad..
RE: Mayfield  
bw in dc : 11/15/2021 8:01 am : link
In comment 15454243 Straw Hat said:
Quote:
Would have a meltdown with the ny media before camp even lets out. Hes not built for NY.


This argument is so overrated and boring.

Meanwhile, the guy who is supposedly built for big, bad NY - Jones - can't win games or score enough points.

Give me the guy who can win games. I'll hire a good PR firm to navigate big, bad NY.

 
christian : 11/15/2021 8:06 am : link
The media is now your Twitter and Instagram feed, not Pat Leonard.

Mayfield plays in the same market as Jones.
I think he is like the majority QB's  
Lines of Scrimmage : 11/15/2021 8:09 am : link
He has shown he can win games with a very good team around him that can create balance with a strong running game. The issue now is placing a value on it. Pay him big money and it becomes much harder keeping that team and then you probably don't have a QB still good enough. Or look to FA, trade market or draft which has its own issues. He certainly has produced more than Jones but he also has had a far better and healthier supporting cast.

There is a reason guys like Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers etc. stayed in the league so long.
How about neither  
Mike in NY : 11/15/2021 8:12 am : link
!
Jones  
jeff57 : 11/15/2021 8:32 am : link
Mayfield plays behind a real good OL and is still mediocre.
dumb question  
DannyDimes : 11/15/2021 8:36 am : link
One is on a rookie contract and the other will be expecting a $35 million dollar per year contract. So A is the only choice.
LOL  
DannyDimes : 11/15/2021 8:36 am : link
I meant B is the only choice :)
Wait and See  
NJLCO : 11/15/2021 8:36 am : link
You have to wait until DJ has to play in a meaningful game. He has yet to reach that game at the college or NFL level. Mayfield has at both levels.
......  
Route 9 : 11/15/2021 8:38 am : link
Do we get to keep both Glennon and McCoy as back-ups?
RE: Mayfield NO  
Blue21 : 11/15/2021 8:46 am : link
In comment 15454244 George from PA said:
Quote:
Jones TBD


This
......  
Route 9 : 11/15/2021 8:53 am : link
Lol. I wonder how many people outside of this board (who are not Giant fans) would actually take Jones? Of course you're going to get majority Jones answers on here.

Haha also love the answers implying that Jones is still a "?" when it's his 3rd season here and in the league.
Idk. On BBI the answer  
fanoftheteam : 11/15/2021 8:54 am : link
Solely depends on what week it was and what team won and what team lost. This week the answer is obviously B. But next week who knows!
If the price tag were the same then I would take Mayfield.  
chick310 : 11/15/2021 9:01 am : link
And the big bad press in New York isn't really a thing anymore. It's 2021 and the media is everywhere.
a big piece is missing  
UConn4523 : 11/15/2021 9:11 am : link
are we talking rookie contract or next deal? Because there's absolutely 0 way I pay Mayfield the $30m+ per year he's requesting (apparently). I wouldn't pay Jones that either but he also wouldn't command that.

So if we are taking cost into effect then my answer is Jones. If not, then Mayfield.
RE: ......  
christian : 11/15/2021 9:13 am : link
In comment 15454278 Route 9 said:
Quote:
Haha also love the answers implying that Jones is still a "?" when it's his 3rd season here and in the league.


I regret I might have started this last year — but the comparisons to Ryan Tannehill are now kind of funny.

Forget that Tannehill got a team to .500 and threw for 4K and 27/12 his 3rd year.
side note  
UConn4523 : 11/15/2021 9:13 am : link
Id love to see Jones play in that offense. Adding his legs to that RB corps and OL would be really fun to watch.
RE: side note  
Route 9 : 11/15/2021 9:17 am : link
In comment 15454291 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
Id love to see Jones play in that offense. Adding his legs to that RB corps and OL would be really fun to watch.


He'd be the same guy there he is here.
RE: RE: side note  
UConn4523 : 11/15/2021 9:19 am : link
In comment 15454297 Route 9 said:
Quote:
In comment 15454291 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


Id love to see Jones play in that offense. Adding his legs to that RB corps and OL would be really fun to watch.



He'd be the same guy there he is here.


I disagree.
RE: Another boring and tiresome Jones debate thread  
Beer Man : 11/15/2021 9:21 am : link
In comment 15454242 Rick in Dallas said:
Quote:
I will have a lot to say at the end of the year on DJ.
Both QB's are tough dudes.
+1
RE: RE: Another boring and tiresome Jones debate thread  
UConn4523 : 11/15/2021 9:24 am : link
In comment 15454300 Beer Man said:
Quote:
In comment 15454242 Rick in Dallas said:


Quote:


I will have a lot to say at the end of the year on DJ.
Both QB's are tough dudes.

+1


+2, although I enjoy watching them these days. Its like a drug for some people, the BBI addicts NEED it.
RE: RE: Mayfield  
DonQuixote : 11/15/2021 9:46 am : link
In comment 15454251 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15454243 Straw Hat said:


Quote:


Would have a meltdown with the ny media before camp even lets out. Hes not built for NY.



This argument is so overrated and boring.

Meanwhile, the guy who is supposedly built for big, bad NY - Jones - can't win games or score enough points.

Give me the guy who can win games. I'll hire a good PR firm to navigate big, bad NY.


That’s not true. Temperament matters and how you fit in with the town/media matters. That seems kind of obvious.
RE: RE: side note  
Producer : 11/15/2021 9:47 am : link
In comment 15454297 Route 9 said:
Quote:
In comment 15454291 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


Id love to see Jones play in that offense. Adding his legs to that RB corps and OL would be really fun to watch.



He'd be the same guy there he is here.


Exactly. It's funny they think he will transform into Johnny Unitas on another team, instead of continuing to be a robotic, uncertain, mistake-prone QB that he is.
RE: RE: RE: Another boring and tiresome Jones debate thread  
DonQuixote : 11/15/2021 9:49 am : link
In comment 15454302 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15454300 Beer Man said:


Quote:


In comment 15454242 Rick in Dallas said:


Quote:


I will have a lot to say at the end of the year on DJ.
Both QB's are tough dudes.

+1



+2, although I enjoy watching them these days. Its like a drug for some people, the BBI addicts NEED it.


If it’s tiresome and boring to you, maybe don’t read it and certainly don’t bother posting on it.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Another boring and tiresome Jones debate thread  
UConn4523 : 11/15/2021 9:53 am : link
In comment 15454318 DonQuixote said:
Quote:
In comment 15454302 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 15454300 Beer Man said:


Quote:


In comment 15454242 Rick in Dallas said:


Quote:


I will have a lot to say at the end of the year on DJ.
Both QB's are tough dudes.

+1



+2, although I enjoy watching them these days. Its like a drug for some people, the BBI addicts NEED it.



If it’s tiresome and boring to you, maybe don’t read it and certainly don’t bother posting on it.


I just said I enjoy watching them, so no.
RE: RE: RE: Mayfield  
j_rud : 11/15/2021 9:54 am : link
In comment 15454315 DonQuixote said:
Quote:
In comment 15454251 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15454243 Straw Hat said:


Quote:


Would have a meltdown with the ny media before camp even lets out. Hes not built for NY.



This argument is so overrated and boring.

Meanwhile, the guy who is supposedly built for big, bad NY - Jones - can't win games or score enough points.

Give me the guy who can win games. I'll hire a good PR firm to navigate big, bad NY.




That’s not true. Temperament matters and how you fit in with the town/media matters. That seems kind of obvious.


It does, but what's obvious is that our fan base tends to lean on intangibles more because we simply don't have a winner.
RE: RE: Mayfield  
GiantTuff1 : 11/15/2021 9:56 am : link
In comment 15454251 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15454243 Straw Hat said:


Quote:


Would have a meltdown with the ny media before camp even lets out. Hes not built for NY.



This argument is so overrated and boring.

Meanwhile, the guy who is supposedly built for big, bad NY - Jones - can't win games or score enough points.

Give me the guy who can win games. I'll hire a good PR firm to navigate big, bad NY.


EXACTLY. Thank you.

So we are supposed to have quiet QBs for the rest of existence?

Maybe what this team needs is someone with fire at the helm. Not saying that's Mayfield, but waiting on the Eli lightning to strike twice is an incredibly inept fallacy to keep chasing.
whats funny is the mere suggestion of playing with an OL  
UConn4523 : 11/15/2021 9:57 am : link
and RB's that move forward can actually improve how a QB operates turns into "suggesting he'd be Johnny Unitas".

This is why these threads are pointless, ends up being unproductive drivel by the majority of posters.
Mayfield  
Sammo85 : 11/15/2021 10:01 am : link
has been playing severely injured almost all season. People need to take that into account when criticizing him.

And yes, he has a much better offensive line but has also had to deal with headaches at WR just like Jones.


RE: RE: RE: Mayfield  
bw in dc : 11/15/2021 10:03 am : link
In comment 15454315 DonQuixote said:
Quote:
In comment 15454251 bw in dc

This argument is so overrated and boring.

Meanwhile, the guy who is supposedly built for big, bad NY - Jones - can't win games or score enough points.

Give me the guy who can win games. I'll hire a good PR firm to navigate big, bad NY.




That’s not true. Temperament matters and how you fit in with the town/media matters. That seems kind of obvious.


You sound like John Mara. Stale and boring. Too caught up on finding guys who fit this image of the "Giants Way" player. How has that worked out the last decade?

What matters is talent and winning. All of these periphery parts will take care of themselves.
RE: RE: side note  
chick310 : 11/15/2021 10:04 am : link
In comment 15454297 Route 9 said:
Quote:
In comment 15454291 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


Id love to see Jones play in that offense. Adding his legs to that RB corps and OL would be really fun to watch.



He'd be the same guy there he is here.


He wouldn't be entirely the same guy.

Don't think you would see him running as much as they have better legs to use than his. Jones would have to earn his keep passing where you would probably see some of the same issues and fans questioning whether he is the guy.
Mayfield is  
eric2425ny : 11/15/2021 10:07 am : link
not good. He has a creative offensive coordinator, a better line, the best RB group in the league, decent WR’s, and two solid TE’s and he hasn’t frankly done much of anything. Remember when Austin Hooper was a top 5 TE in Atlanta with Matt Ryan throwing to him? Look at him now. Same with Landry and OBJ. Sure the latter two have had injury issues but every time I would watch OBJ on the Browns Mayfield would be sailing it over his head.

If a team shuts down the Browns running game or gets ahead of them Mayfield does not have the ability to carry the team like other QB’s can.

Mayfield has the attitude of Brett Favre, but is short, not very mobile, and not particularly accurate. I would take Jones over him any day of the week. Jones can run, throws a solid deep ball, and is the prototypical size for a QB. Am I saying Jones is great? No, but he’s better than Mayfield and also a year younger.
RE: Just sticking to the premise...  
Thegratefulhead : 11/15/2021 10:13 am : link
In comment 15454235 bw in dc said:
Quote:
It's a pretty easy choice - Mayfield. And I've never been a Mayfield fan.

But he has won big games. Last year, for example, he was terrific in the Browns playoff win over Pittsburgh. And his 2020 overall numbers were actually pretty damn good.

So give me the pedigree and the guy who I know can make plays in big moments.
Let's use this as my answer to. It is easy.

Why?

Objective evidence.

i'd go  
djm : 11/15/2021 10:19 am : link
Jones over Mayfield. I liked Mayfield coming out but he hasn't moved the needle at all despite playing in one of the more comfy offenses in the NFL. They aren't the 89 Niners but he's got a very good OL, great RBs more often than not and solid WRs. And his D is good. Despite all this the Browns are a nice little team. They could be better.
I'm not a big Mayfield guy  
Producer : 11/15/2021 10:27 am : link
I think he's small and a limited passwr.

Nevertheless, all things remaining the same, it's not close, he's better than Jones.

If I have to pay Mayfield $30M and I get Jones on his rookie deal, I stay with Jonea.
First  
Toth029 : 11/15/2021 10:47 am : link
Question. Who is the OC? Jones would be very interesting in that Stefanski offense. Hell, he had 24 TD's in 12 games with Shurmur.
RE: I'm not a big Mayfield guy  
djm : 11/15/2021 10:52 am : link
In comment 15454351 Producer said:
Quote:
I think he's small and a limited passwr.

Nevertheless, all things remaining the same, it's not close, he's better than Jones.

If I have to pay Mayfield $30M and I get Jones on his rookie deal, I stay with Jonea.


Right...it's not close.

Gimme a break.
Mayfield is Terrible!  
ZogZerg : 11/15/2021 10:53 am : link
Jones behind Cleveland's O-line would be a much better Jones than we have seen.
they're having similar seasons in '21  
japanhead : 11/15/2021 10:58 am : link
jones: 8 TDs/5 INTs, ~ 2k yards
mayfield: 9 TDs/4 INTs, ~ 2k yards

first 2 years:

jones ('19/'20): 35 TDs/22 INTs, ~ 6k yards
mayfield ('18/'19): 49 TDs/35 INTs, ~ 7.5k yards

mayfield obviously had a much better 2020 than jones but overall i'm not sure he's a much better player than jones despite having the more productive career to this point.

doubt i'd rush give either a fat second contract.
You guys know Mayfield is playing through a torn labrum  
Producer : 11/15/2021 10:58 am : link
Right?
RE: You guys know Mayfield is playing through a torn labrum  
Cap'n Bluebeard : 11/15/2021 11:07 am : link
In comment 15454387 Producer said:
Quote:
Right?


So now we're making excuses for Mayfield? That's certainly what you would say if it were Jones...
RE: RE: You guys know Mayfield is playing through a torn labrum  
Producer : 11/15/2021 11:09 am : link
In comment 15454396 Cap'n Bluebeard said:
Quote:
In comment 15454387 Producer said:


Quote:


Right?



So now we're making excuses for Mayfield? That's certainly what you would say if it were Jones...


You are welcome not to accept it, but when uninjured Mayfield plays significantly better than he has this season, and significantly better than Jones has ever played.
and Jones played through  
UConn4523 : 11/15/2021 11:12 am : link
the hamstring last year and that wasn't excusable.

If Mayfield can't throw he shouldn't play.
It's funny how the unproductive drivel becomes like a drug  
chick310 : 11/15/2021 11:18 am : link
for some people. The BBI addicts NEED it.
RE: they're having similar seasons in '21  
chick310 : 11/15/2021 11:21 am : link
In comment 15454385 japanhead said:
Quote:
jones: 8 TDs/5 INTs, ~ 2k yards
mayfield: 9 TDs/4 INTs, ~ 2k yards

first 2 years:

jones ('19/'20): 35 TDs/22 INTs, ~ 6k yards
mayfield ('18/'19): 49 TDs/35 INTs, ~ 7.5k yards

mayfield obviously had a much better 2020 than jones but overall i'm not sure he's a much better player than jones despite having the more productive career to this point.

doubt i'd rush give either a fat second contract.


Agreed on a second contract. However as mentioned earlier though, if the price tag is the same then Mayfield is the better choice here.
RE: RE: ......  
dschwarz in westchester : 11/15/2021 11:38 am : link
In comment 15454290 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15454278 Route 9 said:


Quote:


Haha also love the answers implying that Jones is still a "?" when it's his 3rd season here and in the league.



I regret I might have started this last year — but the comparisons to Ryan Tannehill are now kind of funny.

Forget that Tannehill got a team to .500 and threw for 4K and 27/12 his 3rd year.


Jones threw for 24/12 in 13 games as a rookie on an awful team.

I am honestly unclear why people are so vehement about Jones either way. I think he's a QB you can build a winning offense around and the Giants haven't done that. But I don't think he is or ever will be a 'best QB in the NFL' candidate (neither was Eli or Simms though so I don't view that as inherently fatal).

Would I like to see a QB upgrade? Sure. I've spent my whole football fan life wishing I could root for a team with an offense that could scorch the earth and a QB who could score on anyone (offense is fun!).

But I don't see how anyone could watch this team play and come away with the idea that Jones is what's holding the offense back. Injuries, lack-of-depth of the roster to cover for those injuries, and Jason Garrett seem like much more likely issues to deal with before we spend every draft pick we've got to move from a B+ QB in the hopes of landing the first A+ QB in what....75 years?
RE: RE: RE: ......  
japanhead : 11/15/2021 11:52 am : link
In comment 15454425 dschwarz in westchester said:
Quote:

Jones threw for 24/12 in 13 games as a rookie on an awful team.

I am honestly unclear why people are so vehement about Jones either way. I think he's a QB you can build a winning offense around and the Giants haven't done that. But I don't think he is or ever will be a 'best QB in the NFL' candidate (neither was Eli or Simms though so I don't view that as inherently fatal).

Would I like to see a QB upgrade? Sure. I've spent my whole football fan life wishing I could root for a team with an offense that could scorch the earth and a QB who could score on anyone (offense is fun!).

But I don't see how anyone could watch this team play and come away with the idea that Jones is what's holding the offense back. Injuries, lack-of-depth of the roster to cover for those injuries, and Jason Garrett seem like much more likely issues to deal with before we spend every draft pick we've got to move from a B+ QB in the hopes of landing the first A+ QB in what....75 years?


Jones is a "B+" quarterback? Are you on drugs?

People need to stop referencing Jones's rookie season as some kind of evidence that he is good, or that he has this well of untapped potential, and that is the current OC's fault that he's not tapping into that potential.

The HC and OC who were here during Jones's rookie season were promptly fired at the end of that season because the team only won four games.

The OC that is here now was personally recommended to Judge by Mara. Judge hired him and stuck with him after Jones had a terrible sophomore season where he threw for just 11 TDs and under 3k yards. Jones is currently on pace to throw for a pathetic 16 TDs this season- his second in the same offense. He has never had a three-TD game under this staff.

That he had three or four good games his rookie season under Shurmur has nothing to do with where Jones is at now. Shurmur has a well-documented history of making marginal QBs look serviceable, and I believe Shurmur was the loudest voice in the room pushing to draft Jones.
Mayfield > Jones, and it's not particularly close  
JonC : 11/15/2021 11:53 am : link
but I would rather see how this season plays out, and what our draft prospects look like in '22 and '23.

Most likely, Jones is the QB here in '22 and the convo will be about picking up his option year rather than an extension.
and I'm not a big Mayfield fan  
JonC : 11/15/2021 11:53 am : link
I think he'd implode here under the scrutiny.
how can anyone say  
djm : 11/15/2021 11:58 am : link
it's not even close?


How do we just ignore that the BRowns had one of the more talented teams while the Giants --from 19-20 most definitely did not. Mayfield has been ok, maybe even above average but not even close? We aren't comparing Ryan Leaf to PEyton Manning here.

So you're telling me if Jones was on the Browns last year they don't come close to 11 (or was it 10) wins? And if Mayfield is on the Giants they win 8-10 games in 2020?

I don't know...maybe I am nuts. I just don't see it.
RE: You guys know Mayfield is playing through a torn labrum  
eric2425ny : 11/15/2021 12:02 pm : link
In comment 15454387 Producer said:
Quote:
Right?


He’s not much better when fully healthy in the games I have watched. It’s one thing to be somewhat inaccurate or lack arm strength when you can scramble and make plays with your legs. He has limited mobility and arm talent. A winning attitude is not enough in the NFL. Players are too fast and too talented and you’ll get exposed just like Mayfield has.

This is year 4 for Mayfield and he didn’t look any better pre-injury than he did when he first came into the league. I’d love to see Jones with that play caller, that line, and that group of RB’s. If he was the QB of the Browns they’d probably be winning their division.
The Browns  
djm : 11/15/2021 12:02 pm : link
roll Mayfield out so often and he has a good OL. These aren't designed running plays. These are rollouts designed to cut the field in half and lighten the processing needed, at least that's how I see it. Is Mayfield NOT being rolled out that often and I am just seeing things? I guess it's possible but to me, Mayfield is limited despite playing behind good OL and running backs.

They are similar in talent. But only one plays with offensive talent, and we know who that is.

Again, I don't want to hear about rose colored glasses. I don't care if Jones is cut tomorrow and we win games with Joe Blow, I just don't see this massive upgrade in Mayfield, not at all.
Browns have rushed  
Lines of Scrimmage : 11/15/2021 12:07 pm : link
for over 150 ypg the last two years at over a 5 yard clip where Mayfield is not a big part of the rushing totals. Those type of numbers normally produce high YPA and TD's as it opens up play action.

Saying Mayfield is far superior to Jones seems short sighted when Jones has not had anywhere near that type of run support. Giants are at 95 rypg this year and last year sat at 110 rypg. Both years Jones was a big part of the running offense out of necessity.
djm  
JonC : 11/15/2021 12:08 pm : link
You got those blue-colored glasses on is all.
Call me when  
JonC : 11/15/2021 12:12 pm : link
Jones finally has pocket presence and command, shows he can consistently read through his progressions, not miss wide open receivers constantly, and lift his team more than zero times. He's the definition of an average QB right now.

The team around him matters, but this is what he's got to work with and if he can't get it done, he's probably not the right QB here.

IFs are old.
JonC  
Producer : 11/15/2021 12:18 pm : link
Agree on every point.

In isolation, Jones' traits remain troubling and it is hard to project him as a much more productive QB, even if he was on a much better team.
I don't think you can win with either one  
Mike in NJ : 11/15/2021 12:22 pm : link
The main concern with Mayfield is that he already has all of the things people point to this team lacking, good OL, good coach, excellent running game, and he still is average at best. If Mayfield can't stand out given what's around him in Cleveland, then he's not going to do it anywhere.

That isn't to say that Jones would be any better in that situation. I think the sample size is large enough now that we can say Jones just isn't the answer either.
RE: JonC  
joe48 : 11/15/2021 12:26 pm : link
In comment 15454454 Producer said:
Quote:
Agree on every point.

In isolation, Jones' traits remain troubling and it is hard to project him as a much more productive QB, even if he was on a much better team.

So many BBI QB experts here. LOL
I don’t know if Jones is worth a damn, but  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 11/15/2021 12:27 pm : link
I know I’d love to see DJ behind the best center-guard trio in the sport.

On ESPN this morning, they showed a stat that Baker Mayfield is 0-14 when the Browns get out rushed by 50 yards. Daniel Jones won a game with his team outrushed by 50 yards in his first NFL start.
There's a good chance  
JonC : 11/15/2021 12:45 pm : link
Jones' best shot here is behind an average or worse OL, given the trend of the past four seasons.
RE: The Browns  
Tuckrule : 11/15/2021 12:47 pm : link
In comment 15454441 djm said:
Quote:
roll Mayfield out so often and he has a good OL. These aren't designed running plays. These are rollouts designed to cut the field in half and lighten the processing needed, at least that's how I see it. Is Mayfield NOT being rolled out that often and I am just seeing things? I guess it's possible but to me, Mayfield is limited despite playing behind good OL and running backs.

They are similar in talent. But only one plays with offensive talent, and we know who that is.

Again, I don't want to hear about rose colored glasses. I don't care if Jones is cut tomorrow and we win games with Joe Blow, I just don't see this massive upgrade in Mayfield, not at all.


Your 100 percent correct. One of the better analyst out there is Greg cosell. He says this non stop about stefanski and his scheme and how it makes mayfield a better player. Go watch cosell he’s the best in the business and his show “nfl matchup” is a must watch. When he talks all of us should take note.

JonC, you can’t say this is what he has to deal with so make it work. He’s playing with garbage infront of him. He had a few shots at making plays vs the raiders and each time he delivered. The throw to Golladay on third and long was a thing of beauty. Dirty pocket and stuck that ball in the tightest of windows. Another third down to Toney if he doesn’t put that ball where he does Toney can’t turn up field and convert. Each time he was asked to compete third and longs he basically did it. Not to mention he’s avoiding free rushers almost every single play. The amount of sacks he’s saved but avoiding the first guy is remarkable. I think people are so down on the giants that jones is the easy scapegoat. He’s the least of the giants problems. If we had a semi competent line he’d flourish. It’s hard to play action pass when you have no run game. It’s very hard to run deep routes and double moves with a line that can block anyone. Solder is a human turnstile and Peart isn’t much better when he’s at left tackle. When AT is on the field it’s not a coincidence Jones plays better.
Tuck  
JonC : 11/15/2021 12:58 pm : link
I agree he plays better with better OL play in front of him. But, what he has is what he has to work with. You can what if until the cows come how, but reality is what matters.

There's still so many blind spots to his game on a regular basis, it's very difficult to see him making a leap from average NFL QB to one who consistently leads the Giants to the playoffs and deep runs. I just don't see "it" from him. He still misses open targets, which are THE throws has to make to create some score separation in games. He still gets tunnel vision in the pocket and stares down receivers for easy picks. In other words, there are little details he could be demonstrating more regularly that prove he's really starting to get it, things that aren't completely reliant on the OL play in front of him.

I don't think Mayfield wins a SB either, if that helps anyone feel better. SB wins are almost always for the elite QBs to lose, which is the main reason I'd rather not dig in too deep with Jones.
So the people  
ajr2456 : 11/15/2021 1:05 pm : link
Who would take Jones on a rookie contract over Mayfield at $30 million, would you also take a rookie on a rookie contract over Jones at $30 million?
RE: So the people  
UConn4523 : 11/15/2021 1:07 pm : link
In comment 15454480 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Who would take Jones on a rookie contract over Mayfield at $30 million, would you also take a rookie on a rookie contract over Jones at $30 million?


Of course. Only a handful of QB's I'd pay that price for and neither Jones or Mayfield are on that list.

Many don't realize, or want to purposely ignore, that most people would sign up for an upgrade at QB. That's what makes these threads so special.
RE: Just sticking to the premise...  
Maryland Blows : 11/15/2021 1:07 pm : link
In comment 15454235 bw in dc said:
Quote:
It's a pretty easy choice - Mayfield. And I've never been a Mayfield fan.

But he has won big games. Last year, for example, he was terrific in the Browns playoff win over Pittsburgh. And his 2020 overall numbers were actually pretty damn good.

So give me the pedigree and the guy who I know can make plays in big moments.


Hey where are the Colt McCoy people this week? was it because of him, was it his OL was dinged did they implement Garrett's offense over night in Arizona? What happened.

I do not believe Jones is a top 10 QB in the NFL ye he might be one of these days but either is Mayfield. I will stick with Jones.
Focus on attributes...  
bw in dc : 11/15/2021 1:09 pm : link
Jones is taller, faster and maybe a slightly better athlete than Mayfield.

Mayfield has a better arm, throws better on the run, and maneuvers in pocket.

So based on that, which I think is more than fair, which QB would you want (forget the money situation) piloting your team?

Seems obvious...
RE: RE: So the people  
ajr2456 : 11/15/2021 1:11 pm : link
In comment 15454482 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15454480 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


Who would take Jones on a rookie contract over Mayfield at $30 million, would you also take a rookie on a rookie contract over Jones at $30 million?



Of course. Only a handful of QB's I'd pay that price for and neither Jones or Mayfield are on that list.

Many don't realize, or want to purposely ignore, that most people would sign up for an upgrade at QB. That's what makes these threads so special.


What if the rookie isn’t an upgrade but is the same?
then we get another 3+ years of these threads  
UConn4523 : 11/15/2021 1:12 pm : link
.
I don’t want little Mayfield  
5BowlsSoon : 11/15/2021 1:13 pm : link
But My answer is C.

I will keep open minded looking forward to seeing Jones play with some decent personnel after the break. I know the OL will still be mediocre even with Andrew Thomas returning to the fold. So, can’t do much about that.

I also know Jason Garrett isn’t going anywhere and will probably not open up the playbook for Jones while he believes this OL won’t protect him, which leads to turnovers.

But….if he can get Barkley, Golladay, Toney, and Shepard all on the field together…..I am going to be hopeful to think Jones can overcome a less than mediocre OL.

But like I said…..I will have a more definitive answer after week 18. For now, Jones has given me enough in 2021 to at least be excited. Other than the Rams game, he has been decent to good in all the other games. He has cut down on turnovers and he is a threat to run. I see this potential being realized.
I find this debate to be kind of odd.  
j_rud : 11/15/2021 1:14 pm : link
At this point in time neither is worth being retained on a second contract and while possible the odds of that changing in 8 weeks (the timeline designated by the OP) aren't very good.

RE: RE: Just sticking to the premise...  
bw in dc : 11/15/2021 1:19 pm : link
In comment 15454483 Maryland Blows said:
Quote:
In comment 15454235 bw in dc said:



Hey where are the Colt McCoy people this week? was it because of him, was it his OL was dinged did they implement Garrett's offense over night in Arizona? What happened.

I do not believe Jones is a top 10 QB in the NFL ye he might be one of these days but either is Mayfield. I will stick with Jones.


Fine.

Say what you want about Mayfield, but he's a winner and deserves credit for pulling Cleveland out of the doldrums under the pressure of being a lottery pick...
Both place you exactly where you don't want  
Chris L. : 11/15/2021 1:43 pm : link
to be...quarterback hell. Good enough that you worry about who their replacement will be but bad enough that you will never win anything of consequence with them at the helm.
RE: RE: RE: So the people  
chick310 : 11/15/2021 1:47 pm : link
In comment 15454488 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 15454482 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 15454480 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


Who would take Jones on a rookie contract over Mayfield at $30 million, would you also take a rookie on a rookie contract over Jones at $30 million?



Of course. Only a handful of QB's I'd pay that price for and neither Jones or Mayfield are on that list.

Many don't realize, or want to purposely ignore, that most people would sign up for an upgrade at QB. That's what makes these threads so special.



What if the rookie isn’t an upgrade but is the same?


There are no guarantees that a rookie will be an upgrade which is perhaps why many Giants fans are still on the fence with Jones. Also plenty of opinions that the Giants should move on and yet still others that say he still could turn into a good QB. That is why these threads exist, to give those opinions.

The special mostly comes from condescending posters like uconn4523 who want to constantly remind everyone these threads aren't needed, and yet he cannot stay off of them.
RE: RE: RE: Just sticking to the premise...  
Cap'n Bluebeard : 11/15/2021 1:52 pm : link
In comment 15454499 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15454483 Maryland Blows said:


Quote:


In comment 15454235 bw in dc said:



Hey where are the Colt McCoy people this week? was it because of him, was it his OL was dinged did they implement Garrett's offense over night in Arizona? What happened.

I do not believe Jones is a top 10 QB in the NFL ye he might be one of these days but either is Mayfield. I will stick with Jones.



Fine.

Say what you want about Mayfield, but he's a winner and deserves credit for pulling Cleveland out of the doldrums under the pressure of being a lottery pick...


...Baker Mayfield currently owns a .500 as a starter and the Browns have had exactly one winning season in the 4 years he's been their QB. They currently have a losing record. But ok.
RE: RE: RE: So the people  
Go Terps : 11/15/2021 1:53 pm : link
In comment 15454488 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 15454482 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 15454480 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


Who would take Jones on a rookie contract over Mayfield at $30 million, would you also take a rookie on a rookie contract over Jones at $30 million?



Of course. Only a handful of QB's I'd pay that price for and neither Jones or Mayfield are on that list.

Many don't realize, or want to purposely ignore, that most people would sign up for an upgrade at QB. That's what makes these threads so special.



What if the rookie isn’t an upgrade but is the same?


It's ok to draft and miss. When that happens you just acknowledge it, move on, and draft another guy.

What's not ok is to draft and miss but use up years making excuses to convince yourself you didn't miss and in the meantime passing on better prospects.

There's no more need for these threads. The Jones debate is over.
RE: RE: RE: RE: So the people  
ajr2456 : 11/15/2021 1:55 pm : link
In comment 15454524 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15454488 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 15454482 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 15454480 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


Who would take Jones on a rookie contract over Mayfield at $30 million, would you also take a rookie on a rookie contract over Jones at $30 million?



Of course. Only a handful of QB's I'd pay that price for and neither Jones or Mayfield are on that list.

Many don't realize, or want to purposely ignore, that most people would sign up for an upgrade at QB. That's what makes these threads so special.



What if the rookie isn’t an upgrade but is the same?



It's ok to draft and miss. When that happens you just acknowledge it, move on, and draft another guy.

What's not ok is to draft and miss but use up years making excuses to convince yourself you didn't miss and in the meantime passing on better prospects.

There's no more need for these threads. The Jones debate is over.


Yup
RE: RE: RE: RE: ......  
dschwarz in westchester : 11/15/2021 2:06 pm : link
In comment 15454431 japanhead said:
Quote:
In comment 15454425 dschwarz in westchester said:


Quote:



Jones threw for 24/12 in 13 games as a rookie on an awful team.

I am honestly unclear why people are so vehement about Jones either way. I think he's a QB you can build a winning offense around and the Giants haven't done that. But I don't think he is or ever will be a 'best QB in the NFL' candidate (neither was Eli or Simms though so I don't view that as inherently fatal).

Would I like to see a QB upgrade? Sure. I've spent my whole football fan life wishing I could root for a team with an offense that could scorch the earth and a QB who could score on anyone (offense is fun!).

But I don't see how anyone could watch this team play and come away with the idea that Jones is what's holding the offense back. Injuries, lack-of-depth of the roster to cover for those injuries, and Jason Garrett seem like much more likely issues to deal with before we spend every draft pick we've got to move from a B+ QB in the hopes of landing the first A+ QB in what....75 years?



Jones is a "B+" quarterback? Are you on drugs?

People need to stop referencing Jones's rookie season as some kind of evidence that he is good, or that he has this well of untapped potential, and that is the current OC's fault that he's not tapping into that potential.

The HC and OC who were here during Jones's rookie season were promptly fired at the end of that season because the team only won four games.

The OC that is here now was personally recommended to Judge by Mara. Judge hired him and stuck with him after Jones had a terrible sophomore season where he threw for just 11 TDs and under 3k yards. Jones is currently on pace to throw for a pathetic 16 TDs this season- his second in the same offense. He has never had a three-TD game under this staff.

That he had three or four good games his rookie season under Shurmur has nothing to do with where Jones is at now. Shurmur has a well-documented history of making marginal QBs look serviceable, and I believe Shurmur was the loudest voice in the room pushing to draft Jones.


Not sure if I should respond to this, but:
(a) I was specifically referencing the comment that Jones couldn't possibly be as good as Tannehill based on Tannehill posting specific numbers in year three (27/12). Jones can/did do that, and it didn't take until year 3. So that statement is false.
(b) Over the course of his career Jones has been, statistically speaking, pretty average as a passer (overall) with three specific outliers:
-Since Shumer was fired he doesn't throw a lot of TDs
-Since Shumer left he doesn't turn the ball over much
-He's well above average as a running QB regardless of who the coach or personnel around him

My personal assessment is that producing 'average' passing numbers and above average running numbers given the talent around him is actually pretty good, hence the B+.

You can feel otherwise, but if you believe that Jones is holding Jason Garrett, Nate Solder, and Evan Engram back, well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
wish the giants had  
NotIraInSI : 11/15/2021 2:07 pm : link
bert jones.
wish the giants had  
NotIraInSI : 11/15/2021 2:07 pm : link
bert jones.
RE: RE: RE: You guys know Mayfield is playing through a torn labrum  
Cap'n Bluebeard : 11/15/2021 2:13 pm : link
In comment 15454402 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15454396 Cap'n Bluebeard said:


Quote:


In comment 15454387 Producer said:


Quote:


Right?



So now we're making excuses for Mayfield? That's certainly what you would say if it were Jones...



You are welcome not to accept it, but when uninjured Mayfield plays significantly better than he has this season, and significantly better than Jones has ever played.


Quote:
and Jones played through
UConn4523 : 11:12 am : link : reply
the hamstring last year and that wasn't excusable.

If Mayfield can't throw he shouldn't play.


Pretty much this. What's so tiresome about this debate is how the anti-Jones posters apply logic to other QBs that they don't apply to Jones. See above from Producer and also from BW. Apparently, Baker Mayfield has "lifted the Browns out of the doldrums" by having exactly one winning season and producing mediocre QB stats despite a surrounding cast that is far, far superior to anything Jones has had to work with.

I'm on record stating that I think Jones' ceiling is probably middle of the pack, average QB. More likely, lower tier starter/high end backup. But some of the takes of the anti-Jones crowd are inconsistent defy logic. I'd love to move on from him, and I can't see giving him a second contract at this juncture. Baker Mayfield is probably better, but also probably not worth a second contract so acting like he's this far superior QB is just an odd take.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: ......  
Debaser : 11/15/2021 2:18 pm : link


Quote:

(a) I was specifically referencing the comment that Jones couldn't possibly be as good as Tannehill based on Tannehill posting specific numbers in year three (27/12). Jones can/did do that, and it didn't take until year 3. So that statement is false.
(b) Over the course of his career Jones has been, statistically speaking, pretty average as a passer (overall) with three specific outliers:
-Since Shumer was fired he doesn't throw a lot of TDs
-Since Shumer left he doesn't turn the ball over much
-He's well above average as a running QB regardless of who the coach or personnel around him

My personal assessment is that producing 'average' passing numbers and above average running numbers given the talent around him is actually pretty good, hence the B+.

You can feel otherwise, but if you believe that Jones is holding Jason Garrett, Nate Solder, and Evan Engram back, well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagre



For all these great numbers Jones put up in his rookie year how many wins did it result it? How many games were the ginats down 2 scores; or always trailing because of his turnovers?

For all of these meaningless stats ; did they ever result in a come from behind win? Even one time? Yes he played on a bad team and yes the margin for error was small. But when you are turning the ball over 40 freakin times ; it is really hard to make the case that you are going to win games . His decent stats were simply because he was playing from behind by 2 scores a lot. He bascially put up meaningless numbers when defenses were content to run the clock out and win the game.
RE: Tuck  
Thegratefulhead : 11/15/2021 2:21 pm : link
In comment 15454477 JonC said:
Quote:
I agree he plays better with better OL play in front of him. But, what he has is what he has to work with. You can what if until the cows come how, but reality is what matters.

There's still so many blind spots to his game on a regular basis, it's very difficult to see him making a leap from average NFL QB to one who consistently leads the Giants to the playoffs and deep runs. I just don't see "it" from him. He still misses open targets, which are THE throws has to make to create some score separation in games. He still gets tunnel vision in the pocket and stares down receivers for easy picks. In other words, there are little details he could be demonstrating more regularly that prove he's really starting to get it, things that aren't completely reliant on the OL play in front of him.

I don't think Mayfield wins a SB either, if that helps anyone feel better. SB wins are almost always for the elite QBs to lose, which is the main reason I'd rather not dig in too deep with Jones.
This
...  
Cap'n Bluebeard : 11/15/2021 2:26 pm : link
Quote:
For all of these meaningless stats ; did they ever result in a come from behind win? Even one time?


The Giants trailed 28-10 at half and 31-25 with 3 minutes to go in the 4th in Jones' very first start. They won 32-31.

So yes.

The reason  
Thegratefulhead : 11/15/2021 2:27 pm : link
We are not scoring more and the offense is conservative is because they are protecting Jones from himself.
RE: RE: RE: RE: You guys know Mayfield is playing through a torn labrum  
Producer : 11/15/2021 2:27 pm : link
In comment 15454550 Cap'n Bluebeard said:
Quote:
In comment 15454402 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15454396 Cap'n Bluebeard said:


Quote:


In comment 15454387 Producer said:


Quote:


Right?



So now we're making excuses for Mayfield? That's certainly what you would say if it were Jones...



You are welcome not to accept it, but when uninjured Mayfield plays significantly better than he has this season, and significantly better than Jones has ever played.





Quote:


and Jones played through
UConn4523 : 11:12 am : link : reply
the hamstring last year and that wasn't excusable.

If Mayfield can't throw he shouldn't play.



Pretty much this. What's so tiresome about this debate is how the anti-Jones posters apply logic to other QBs that they don't apply to Jones. See above from Producer and also from BW. Apparently, Baker Mayfield has "lifted the Browns out of the doldrums" by having exactly one winning season and producing mediocre QB stats despite a surrounding cast that is far, far superior to anything Jones has had to work with.

I'm on record stating that I think Jones' ceiling is probably middle of the pack, average QB. More likely, lower tier starter/high end backup. But some of the takes of the anti-Jones crowd are inconsistent defy logic. I'd love to move on from him, and I can't see giving him a second contract at this juncture. Baker Mayfield is probably better, but also probably not worth a second contract so acting like he's this far superior QB is just an odd take.


Wow, that's an impressive, high-handed, circuitous route, including calling me out, to essentially arrive at a position I enunciated.

Points i guess for a BBI politically correct expression of an unpopular opinion.
RE: I think he is like the majority QB's  
Johnny5 : 11/15/2021 2:30 pm : link
In comment 15454255 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
He has shown he can win games with a very good team around him that can create balance with a strong running game. The issue now is placing a value on it. Pay him big money and it becomes much harder keeping that team and then you probably don't have a QB still good enough. Or look to FA, trade market or draft which has its own issues. He certainly has produced more than Jones but he also has had a far better and healthier supporting cast.

There is a reason guys like Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers etc. stayed in the league so long.

Agreed LoS. Only other thing I would add is he has been at winning programs before, so he has experienced success. Obviously that is nothing tangible and there are plenty of winning college QBs that never succeed in the NFL. Man I just keep hoping we progress on the OL. I still feel Jones will keep improving especially with more confidence in his OL. I think it will also allow us to open up the playbook a LOT more.
RE: ...  
Debaser : 11/15/2021 2:34 pm : link
In comment 15454567 Cap'n Bluebeard said:
Quote:


Quote:


For all of these meaningless stats ; did they ever result in a come from behind win? Even one time?



The Giants trailed 28-10 at half and 31-25 with 3 minutes to go in the 4th in Jones' very first start. They won 32-31.

So yes.


That is so lame you ignored every thing I wrote to bring up the one game they won by a missed chip shot FG. What about the Patriots game ? What about the Viking game ? or the 9ers game? So many games where it was borderline garbage time w Jones basically putting up meaningless stats and losing games.
OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE  
Thegratefulhead : 11/15/2021 2:38 pm : link
10-24
More turnovers than TDs
Over 1000 NFL passes

3 Years at Duke.
It still looks the same.

Still hearing the same EXACT excuses.

The defenders think the critics are unfair.

Fucking crazy.
Huh?  
Johnny5 : 11/15/2021 2:38 pm : link
Another thread devolved into a Jones pissing match? I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you.

lol

With these battles I'm constantly reminded of that saying... how does it go?

Something like this:

A wise man never knows all, only fools know everything.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: You guys know Mayfield is playing through a torn labrum  
Debaser : 11/15/2021 2:42 pm : link
Quote:
But some of the takes of the anti-Jones crowd are inconsistent defy logic. I'd love to move on from him, and I can't see giving him a second contract at this juncture. Baker Mayfield is probably better, but also probably not worth a second contract so acting like he's this far superior QB is just an odd take.




The reason why I let other QBs slide with excuses like playing hurt; or injuries; or bad o line play is because get this: I have seen them play well and win games. What a strange concept!

Around here when the oline plays well and Jones has time -- like at the start of the season-- and little changes ;that can't be an excuse any more.

When last year "he has no weapons" but this year he has Golladay and Toney and does jack shit with them in the start of the year and the Dallas game ; that can't be an excuse any more.

When he has Barkley back and they still lose just the same; not having Barkley can't be an excuse any more.

When Golladay is back from being hurt and Toney last week and they just are ignored so Jones can throw to his back up running back ; injuries can't be an excuse any more.
Just skimmed the thread  
arniefez : 11/15/2021 2:44 pm : link
My opinion? If I'm starting from scratch I take Jones. If I'm the Browns I take Jones. If I'm the Giants I take Jones. I'm not sure I can think of any circumstance I'd take Mayfield.

Regardless I think Jones is a middle of the pack QB that would have to have a top NFL roster to win playoff games and if he gets a second contract from the Giants in the 25 million range, which is the bottom of going rate for 2nd QB contracts, he will be way over paid for his value and limit the talent around him.

The fact that he's better IMO than Mayfield doesn't fix holding the ball too long, processing the field too slowly, not seeing or feeling the pass rush and the inability to throw on the run or work off schedule. The best QB's do all of those things well and Jones doesn't do any of them well.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: You guys know Mayfield is playing through a torn labrum  
Cap'n Bluebeard : 11/15/2021 2:45 pm : link
In comment 15454571 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15454550 Cap'n Bluebeard said:


Quote:


In comment 15454402 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15454396 Cap'n Bluebeard said:


Quote:


In comment 15454387 Producer said:


Quote:


Right?



So now we're making excuses for Mayfield? That's certainly what you would say if it were Jones...



You are welcome not to accept it, but when uninjured Mayfield plays significantly better than he has this season, and significantly better than Jones has ever played.





Quote:


and Jones played through
UConn4523 : 11:12 am : link : reply
the hamstring last year and that wasn't excusable.

If Mayfield can't throw he shouldn't play.



Pretty much this. What's so tiresome about this debate is how the anti-Jones posters apply logic to other QBs that they don't apply to Jones. See above from Producer and also from BW. Apparently, Baker Mayfield has "lifted the Browns out of the doldrums" by having exactly one winning season and producing mediocre QB stats despite a surrounding cast that is far, far superior to anything Jones has had to work with.

I'm on record stating that I think Jones' ceiling is probably middle of the pack, average QB. More likely, lower tier starter/high end backup. But some of the takes of the anti-Jones crowd are inconsistent defy logic. I'd love to move on from him, and I can't see giving him a second contract at this juncture. Baker Mayfield is probably better, but also probably not worth a second contract so acting like he's this far superior QB is just an odd take.



Wow, that's an impressive, high-handed, circuitous route, including calling me out, to essentially arrive at a position I enunciated.

Points i guess for a BBI politically correct expression of an unpopular opinion.


Yeah, you don't get it. You go onto every single Jones threat to shit all over everything. Which is fine, I guess. But yet defend Mayfield by saying he's injured, a caveat you would never, ever accept from anoyone defending Jones. Ever. Your predictable response would be something along the lines of "If he's healthy enough to play, he should produce." But I guess that's different for Mayfield, eh?

I'm simply pointing out that it's hilarious and tiresome at the same time that you apply different standards to other QBs than you appear to apply to Jones and to be so dogged and insistent that there is no other valid opinion while doing so displays a mindblowing lack of self-awareness.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: ......  
dschwarz in westchester : 11/15/2021 2:48 pm : link
In comment 15454556 Debaser said:
Quote:




Quote:



(a) I was specifically referencing the comment that Jones couldn't possibly be as good as Tannehill based on Tannehill posting specific numbers in year three (27/12). Jones can/did do that, and it didn't take until year 3. So that statement is false.
(b) Over the course of his career Jones has been, statistically speaking, pretty average as a passer (overall) with three specific outliers:
-Since Shumer was fired he doesn't throw a lot of TDs
-Since Shumer left he doesn't turn the ball over much
-He's well above average as a running QB regardless of who the coach or personnel around him

My personal assessment is that producing 'average' passing numbers and above average running numbers given the talent around him is actually pretty good, hence the B+.

You can feel otherwise, but if you believe that Jones is holding Jason Garrett, Nate Solder, and Evan Engram back, well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagre





For all these great numbers Jones put up in his rookie year how many wins did it result it? How many games were the ginats down 2 scores; or always trailing because of his turnovers?

For all of these meaningless stats ; did they ever result in a come from behind win? Even one time? Yes he played on a bad team and yes the margin for error was small. But when you are turning the ball over 40 freakin times ; it is really hard to make the case that you are going to win games . His decent stats were simply because he was playing from behind by 2 scores a lot. He bascially put up meaningless numbers when defenses were content to run the clock out and win the game.


First - 'decent' stats? If you projected Jones as a 16 game starter, he'd have set the rookie record for TDs in a season. That's more than decent. The fumbles were awful but considering his surrounding talent and situation, he was quite a bit more than decent as a rookie.

Second - There are a lot of guys on a football team, the QB is the most important one, but he's not the only one. Using win/loss record (or TD passes) as the sole measure of competency is reductive.

Danny Kannell 'lead' the Giants to the playoffs in his first season as a starter. Did that make him good?

Eli Manning, despite winning two SBs (the first of which it's hard to argue wasn't a carry by the defense), ended his career with the same number of wins as losses. Do all those seasons mean that the Giants wasted all those years with him, SBs be damned?
RE: RE: RE: RE: So the people  
Maryland Blows : 11/15/2021 2:53 pm : link
In comment 15454524 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15454488 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 15454482 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 15454480 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


Who would take Jones on a rookie contract over Mayfield at $30 million, would you also take a rookie on a rookie contract over Jones at $30 million?



Of course. Only a handful of QB's I'd pay that price for and neither Jones or Mayfield are on that list.

Many don't realize, or want to purposely ignore, that most people would sign up for an upgrade at QB. That's what makes these threads so special.



What if the rookie isn’t an upgrade but is the same?



It's ok to draft and miss. When that happens you just acknowledge it, move on, and draft another guy.

What's not ok is to draft and miss but use up years making excuses to convince yourself you didn't miss and in the meantime passing on better prospects.

There's no more need for these threads. The Jones debate is over.


It is over why because you are declaring him a failure? I will not be over until he either holds the Lombardi over his head for this organization or is cut. The Jones era is exactly at its halfway point right now. Let us see how the next year and a half goes. I am thinking they organization will not be looking to you for the answers to this question.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: ......  
Debaser : 11/15/2021 3:01 pm : link
Quote:


First - 'decent' stats? If you projected Jones as a 16 game starter, he'd have set the rookie record for TDs in a season. That's more than decent. The fumbles were awful but considering his surrounding talent and situation, he was quite a bit more than decent as a rookie.

Second - There are a lot of guys on a football team, the QB is the most important one, but he's not the only one. Using win/loss record (or TD passes) as the sole measure of competency is reductive.

Danny Kannell 'lead' the Giants to the playoffs in his first season as a starter. Did that make him good?

Eli Manning, despite winning two SBs (the first of which it's hard to argue wasn't a carry by the defense), ended his career with the same number of wins as losses. Do all those seasons mean that the Giants wasted all those years with him, SBs be damned?


Look I am not going to argue with you about stats. No one gives a shit about that except some nerd who knows every stat on every player.

You are taking what I said and trying to turn it into some strange hypothetical and making it a football philosophy about how much a QB should be blamed for wins and losses.

The fact is the turnovers were from Jones himself. 40 freakin of them! He was solely responsible for them because he fumbled at a rate you don't see at NFL level. Everyone just assumed (or hoped) that would be cleaned up and he would keep the same production. He didn't. It is obvious now you can't have one without the other w Jones.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: You guys know Mayfield is playing through a torn labrum  
Producer : 11/15/2021 3:09 pm : link
In comment 15454590 Cap'n Bluebeard said:
Quote:
In comment 15454571 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15454550 Cap'n Bluebeard said:


Quote:


In comment 15454402 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15454396 Cap'n Bluebeard said:


Quote:


In comment 15454387 Producer said:


Quote:


Right?



So now we're making excuses for Mayfield? That's certainly what you would say if it were Jones...



You are welcome not to accept it, but when uninjured Mayfield plays significantly better than he has this season, and significantly better than Jones has ever played.





Quote:


and Jones played through
UConn4523 : 11:12 am : link : reply
the hamstring last year and that wasn't excusable.

If Mayfield can't throw he shouldn't play.



Pretty much this. What's so tiresome about this debate is how the anti-Jones posters apply logic to other QBs that they don't apply to Jones. See above from Producer and also from BW. Apparently, Baker Mayfield has "lifted the Browns out of the doldrums" by having exactly one winning season and producing mediocre QB stats despite a surrounding cast that is far, far superior to anything Jones has had to work with.

I'm on record stating that I think Jones' ceiling is probably middle of the pack, average QB. More likely, lower tier starter/high end backup. But some of the takes of the anti-Jones crowd are inconsistent defy logic. I'd love to move on from him, and I can't see giving him a second contract at this juncture. Baker Mayfield is probably better, but also probably not worth a second contract so acting like he's this far superior QB is just an odd take.



Wow, that's an impressive, high-handed, circuitous route, including calling me out, to essentially arrive at a position I enunciated.

Points i guess for a BBI politically correct expression of an unpopular opinion.



Yeah, you don't get it. You go onto every single Jones threat to shit all over everything. Which is fine, I guess. But yet defend Mayfield by saying he's injured, a caveat you would never, ever accept from anoyone defending Jones. Ever. Your predictable response would be something along the lines of "If he's healthy enough to play, he should produce." But I guess that's different for Mayfield, eh?

I'm simply pointing out that it's hilarious and tiresome at the same time that you apply different standards to other QBs than you appear to apply to Jones and to be so dogged and insistent that there is no other valid opinion while doing so displays a mindblowing lack of self-awareness.


Sir, you have compounded a cowardly reply with an even more cowardly reply.

I come to these Jones threads with clear and cogent observations usually rooted in data. I apply the same standards to all QBs. You must have me confuaed with other posters. If Jones had a torn labrum I would note it, but let's not forget he has been terrible with and without injury. And I do not tout equally bad QBs ahead of Jones. It seems you are not familiar with my posts, rather you are going along with the crowd.

You basically have the same POV as me, yet you attack me, which says a lot about your judgment and character, and ability to engage in civil discourse.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: So the people  
Debaser : 11/15/2021 3:25 pm : link
Quote:



It is over why because you are declaring him a failure? I will not be over until he either holds the Lombardi over his head for this organization or is cut. The Jones era is exactly at its halfway point right now. Let us see how the next year and a half goes. I am thinking they organization will not be looking to you for the answers to this question.



Please I’m nore curious about what Glennon can do in this team at this point then I am in jones. And why wouldn’t you be. He’s played fewer games ;under less than ideal circumstances; and hasn’t started on the same team in years.

O and wow Mara isn’t reading my comments or go teps for pointers on roster moves ? No kidding. Thanks I don’t know what I would do without you man. For all we know Mara wouldn’t even consider a qb like minshew here because he has a mustache while keeping jones on tenure because hat is the giants way
RE: RE: RE: RE: Just sticking to the premise...  
bw in dc : 11/15/2021 3:37 pm : link
In comment 15454521 Cap'n Bluebeard said:
Quote:


...Baker Mayfield currently owns a .500 as a starter and the Browns have had exactly one winning season in the 4 years he's been their QB. They currently have a losing record. But ok.


But there has been gradual progression. And Cleveland won a playoff game last year against Pittsburgh. The next week they played very well in KC and had them on the ropes.

This year has been choppy - with the injuries - but they are still in the hunt.

Look, I'm not sure I would commit to Mayfield long term if I am Cleveland. But vis-a-vis Jones, which is the point of the thread, Mayfield has shouldered a lot more expectations and produced much more than Jones as the top pick in the 2018 draft...
To me the difference is offensive systems and play calling  
Simms11 : 11/15/2021 4:15 pm : link
Put DJ in that system and he puts up better numbers IMO. Put Mayfield in Garrett’s system and he’d have the same numbers, perhaps even worse then DJ as he might press more. DJ will be fine with a better Oline in pass pro.
RE: djm  
djm : 11/15/2021 4:20 pm : link
In comment 15454444 JonC said:
Quote:
You got those blue-colored glasses on is all.


Weak.
RE: Call me when  
djm : 11/15/2021 4:21 pm : link
In comment 15454451 JonC said:
Quote:
Jones finally has pocket presence and command, shows he can consistently read through his progressions, not miss wide open receivers constantly, and lift his team more than zero times. He's the definition of an average QB right now.

The team around him matters, but this is what he's got to work with and if he can't get it done, he's probably not the right QB here.

IFs are old.


When has Mayfield ever displayed these traits on a consistent basis? He's has ONE nice year when everything was just perfect in Cleveland.

Again, we aren't comparing Ryan Leaf with Peyton Manning but you wouldn't know it around here.

Giants  
djm : 11/15/2021 4:22 pm : link
wouldn't be a better team with Mayfield. I will die on this hill.
I have a big question  
djm : 11/15/2021 4:27 pm : link
I don't want to hear any bullshit platitude like responses. I want real answers.

When is it ok to factor in surrounding talent? When are things not as clear or not as easy as stat analysis?

What happens when two QBs of EXACT equal talent play for two different teams of different talent level? QB1 plays for a team that is good. QB2 plays for a team that is bad. Is it fair to say that QB2 won't post the same stats or wins?

When are we allowed to factor this kind of shit into play?
Posters like you factor this kind of shit into play  
Jimmy Googs : 11/15/2021 4:32 pm : link
each and every week. It's been going on for a couple of QBs, several coaches and a couple of GMs now.

Did you think you needed permission?


also  
djm : 11/15/2021 4:32 pm : link
i know it's stupid but I want to see Jones the rest of this season. Fuck me I don't care, I like to judge things when they are done, not in the middle.
RE: Giants  
UConn4523 : 11/15/2021 4:33 pm : link
In comment 15454733 djm said:
Quote:
wouldn't be a better team with Mayfield. I will die on this hill.


This is my take as well. Mayfield on the currently constructed Giants looks even worse than he already does this year. How much worse is the question.

I'd love to be able to test hypotheticals but we can't. We only get to see Jones play with arguably the worst OL in the league the last 3 years and Mayfield with arguably top 3 the last few years. If that doesn't have a snowball effect on how the QB's play then what the fuck are we arguing about?

Despite the above I don't think Jones will ever be good enough to be our long term QB but I do know he'd be better in Cleveland - how much better is also an interesting question. This is a lot closer than people think.
RE: Posters like you factor this kind of shit into play  
djm : 11/15/2021 4:35 pm : link
In comment 15454749 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
each and every week. It's been going on for a couple of QBs, several coaches and a couple of GMs now.

Did you think you needed permission?



I just find it odd that it's discussed but usually dismissed. Again, i want to learn more from. When is it ok to conjure this shit up? What is the line of demarcation?

Can a good QB be held back on a bad team?

Just kidding guys. We all know the truth. Of course they can.
If you know Jones will never be good enough then  
Jimmy Googs : 11/15/2021 4:37 pm : link
what's the real loss?
as has been said  
JonC : 11/15/2021 4:42 pm : link
Jones is the same QB in the NFL he was at Duke. If he needs more to succeed, and the Giants are unable to build it around him, then it's time to start from scratch. The Giants have bigger problems than Jones, but he's part of the failure calculus at the same time.

Jones is a nice, hardworking kid. He's an average QB in a league where few non-elite QBs win Super Bowls. It's really that simple imv.

Giants should've focused on the foundation, the talent, the scheme, the teaching, rather than drafting the BPA at specific positions to try and rush the rebuild.
I don't think Mayfield's the answer either  
JonC : 11/15/2021 4:43 pm : link
but he's a better NFL QB than Jones, both can be true at the same time.
Mayfield is better,  
Jerry in_DC : 11/15/2021 4:43 pm : link
but neither is good enough.

The Browns are in a tougher spot though. They're good, so there's risk in starting over at QB. Essentially they've got bad cards, but there's a huge pot so they have a reason to waste money by chasing.

The Giants have it easier- a bad team and a bad QB. There's no risk to starting over. It's an obvious decision to fold a shitty hand when there's no money in the pot.
RE: If you know Jones will never be good enough then  
djm : 11/15/2021 4:43 pm : link
In comment 15454757 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
what's the real loss?


That's not really the debate here. But I don't know that yet. I'm close to believing it, but not convinced because the offense has been dysfunctional around him.

Mayfield is not a difference maker, at least not yet. He's got a better team than Jones could dream of and he's hanging around 500. Sorry, but to sit here and say it's not even close just comes off as bias or jaded to me.

Mayfield is OK. Let's be fair and say Jones is below OK or below average. I think Jones would be better in Cleveland and MAyfield would be worse in NYG.
RE: RE: Posters like you factor this kind of shit into play  
Jimmy Googs : 11/15/2021 4:47 pm : link
In comment 15454755 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 15454749 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


each and every week. It's been going on for a couple of QBs, several coaches and a couple of GMs now.

Did you think you needed permission?





I just find it odd that it's discussed but usually dismissed. Again, i want to learn more from. When is it ok to conjure this shit up? What is the line of demarcation?

Can a good QB be held back on a bad team?

Just kidding guys. We all know the truth. Of course they can.


I don't think it is dismissed. The predominate overall fan base knows the NYG offensive line is weak and that solid playmakers have been few and far between on the field the last several years. No dispute.

Some fans though can still look thru all that and determine is the QB still doing enough and look the part in their view to be a longer term solution. If not, they move on from guy in their mind...
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: ......  
japanhead : 11/15/2021 4:50 pm : link
In comment 15454540 dschwarz in westchester said:
Quote:
In comment 15454431 japanhead said:


Quote:


In comment 15454425 dschwarz in westchester said:


Quote:



Jones threw for 24/12 in 13 games as a rookie on an awful team.

I am honestly unclear why people are so vehement about Jones either way. I think he's a QB you can build a winning offense around and the Giants haven't done that. But I don't think he is or ever will be a 'best QB in the NFL' candidate (neither was Eli or Simms though so I don't view that as inherently fatal).

Would I like to see a QB upgrade? Sure. I've spent my whole football fan life wishing I could root for a team with an offense that could scorch the earth and a QB who could score on anyone (offense is fun!).

But I don't see how anyone could watch this team play and come away with the idea that Jones is what's holding the offense back. Injuries, lack-of-depth of the roster to cover for those injuries, and Jason Garrett seem like much more likely issues to deal with before we spend every draft pick we've got to move from a B+ QB in the hopes of landing the first A+ QB in what....75 years?



Jones is a "B+" quarterback? Are you on drugs?

People need to stop referencing Jones's rookie season as some kind of evidence that he is good, or that he has this well of untapped potential, and that is the current OC's fault that he's not tapping into that potential.

The HC and OC who were here during Jones's rookie season were promptly fired at the end of that season because the team only won four games.

The OC that is here now was personally recommended to Judge by Mara. Judge hired him and stuck with him after Jones had a terrible sophomore season where he threw for just 11 TDs and under 3k yards. Jones is currently on pace to throw for a pathetic 16 TDs this season- his second in the same offense. He has never had a three-TD game under this staff.

That he had three or four good games his rookie season under Shurmur has nothing to do with where Jones is at now. Shurmur has a well-documented history of making marginal QBs look serviceable, and I believe Shurmur was the loudest voice in the room pushing to draft Jones.



Not sure if I should respond to this, but:
(a) I was specifically referencing the comment that Jones couldn't possibly be as good as Tannehill based on Tannehill posting specific numbers in year three (27/12). Jones can/did do that, and it didn't take until year 3. So that statement is false.
(b) Over the course of his career Jones has been, statistically speaking, pretty average as a passer (overall) with three specific outliers:
-Since Shumer was fired he doesn't throw a lot of TDs
-Since Shumer left he doesn't turn the ball over much
-He's well above average as a running QB regardless of who the coach or personnel around him

My personal assessment is that producing 'average' passing numbers and above average running numbers given the talent around him is actually pretty good, hence the B+.

You can feel otherwise, but if you believe that Jones is holding Jason Garrett, Nate Solder, and Evan Engram back, well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.


if jones went 27/12 this year like tannehill in his third season i'd take it all day. but jones is on pace to go 16/8 TD/INT on the season. that is horrific!

look, if you have to reference numbers jones put up 2 and a half seasons ago under a since-fired coach where jones started in 3 of the teams 4 total wins and tied the rookie record for fumbling -- IMO is not a strong argument.

i have no love for garrett or judge. jones has looked mediocre at best under this staff. he is not doing enough to produce points or wins. unless this changes, jones will go, or the staff will go.

your contention is that jones would excel only if judge, garrett, kitchens et al. weren't here- they are holding him back. another staff could do much better with jones. bring in a new system. also get better players. i certainly agree that the roster and staff are questionable.

maybe jones will turn it around under judge/garrett, and they'll win 6 of the next 8 with some injured players coming back, and they'll build on the momentum of getting a home W over spiraling raiders team that lost its legend HC and star WR

or maybe they will win btwn 2 and 4 more games, and jones and the staff will get a mulligan unless they go winless over the last 8 (this seems equally likely to me TBH).

guess we will see. tampa bay next and are definitely beatable. giants almost beat them last year. jones had the read to get the 2 point conversion for the win but hesitated on the throw.
RE: RE: If you know Jones will never be good enough then  
Jimmy Googs : 11/15/2021 4:51 pm : link
In comment 15454773 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 15454757 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


what's the real loss?



That's not really the debate here. But I don't know that yet. I'm close to believing it, but not convinced because the offense has been dysfunctional around him.

Mayfield is not a difference maker, at least not yet. He's got a better team than Jones could dream of and he's hanging around 500. Sorry, but to sit here and say it's not even close just comes off as bias or jaded to me.

Mayfield is OK. Let's be fair and say Jones is below OK or below average. I think Jones would be better in Cleveland and MAyfield would be worse in NYG.


I would tend to agree with all these views djm. My post on "what's the real loss" was for the other guy that said Jones will be never be good enough...
Jones is terrible  
Debaser : 11/15/2021 4:52 pm : link
Quote:

Can a good QB be held back on a bad team?

Just kidding guys. We all know the truth. Of course they can.


If the Giants have the worst line and the affects QB play, then who are some of the other bad lines in the league?

And who are their Qbs? I bet their QBs are better than Jones. Jones is the worst starter in NFL minus the rookies (and some of them are better) and maybeDarnold. But then again I doubt he starts any more now that Cam Newton is back. So it is just Jones as the worst.

Go ahead and name some of the other bad lines in the NFL and their QB is better.
RE: Jones is terrible  
Debaser : 11/15/2021 5:00 pm : link
[quote

Go ahead and name some of the other bad lines in the NFL and their QB is better. [/quote]

Here I will help....

The Raiders have a bad line is Jones a better QB than Carr? Fuck no

The Panthers have a bad line is Jones a better QB than Cam Newton? no.

Steelers is Jones better than Big Ben no.

And you can keep going. Worst starter in the league.

RE: RE: Jones is terrible  
Debaser : 11/15/2021 5:07 pm : link
Quote:


And you can keep going.


The Bengals. Bad oline. Is Jones better than Burrows. NO WAY!
If Jones played for any other team Our prejudice would dissipate  
xman : 11/15/2021 5:10 pm : link
and it would be clear that he has a very ordinary ceiling
RE: Jones is terrible  
Mike in NY : 11/15/2021 5:11 pm : link
In comment 15454785 Debaser said:
Quote:


Quote:



Can a good QB be held back on a bad team?

Just kidding guys. We all know the truth. Of course they can.



If the Giants have the worst line and the affects QB play, then who are some of the other bad lines in the league?

And who are their Qbs? I bet their QBs are better than Jones. Jones is the worst starter in NFL minus the rookies (and some of them are better) and maybeDarnold. But then again I doubt he starts any more now that Cam Newton is back. So it is just Jones as the worst.

Go ahead and name some of the other bad lines in the NFL and their QB is better.


Considering how bad Jared Goff has been away from Sean McVay (yesterday was the first game he didn't lose in his career) I would not say he is necessarily better than Jones. He is better than whomever is starting in New Orleans IMHO. Houston's QB's have played like crap. Those plus Darnold and the rookies I would say are worse than Daniel Jones. The only rookie who has performed better is Mac Jones and even that is an incomplete at this time. I would rank Daniel Jones on par with whomever is starting in Miami and Washington. Jalen Hurts has better stats, but it has not produced noticeably more wins. I am leaving off QB's who were not expected to play at all (like Rudolph, Love, Mike White)
RE: RE: Jones is terrible  
Debaser : 11/15/2021 5:16 pm : link
In comment 15454807 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 15454785 Debaser said:


Quote:




Quote:



Can a good QB be held back on a bad team?

Just kidding guys. We all know the truth. Of course they can.



If the Giants have the worst line and the affects QB play, then who are some of the other bad lines in the league?

And who are their Qbs? I bet their QBs are better than Jones. Jones is the worst starter in NFL minus the rookies (and some of them are better) and maybeDarnold. But then again I doubt he starts any more now that Cam Newton is back. So it is just Jones as the worst.

Go ahead and name some of the other bad lines in the NFL and their QB is better.



Considering how bad Jared Goff has been away from Sean McVay (yesterday was the first game he didn't lose in his career) I would not say he is necessarily better than Jones. He is better than whomever is starting in New Orleans IMHO. Houston's QB's have played like crap. Those plus Darnold and the rookies I would say are worse than Daniel Jones. The only rookie who has performed better is Mac Jones and even that is an incomplete at this time. I would rank Daniel Jones on par with whomever is starting in Miami and Washington. Jalen Hurts has better stats, but it has not produced noticeably more wins. I am leaving off QB's who were not expected to play at all (like Rudolph, Love, Mike White)


Jones is better than Goff WTF fuck no. And Cam Newton is the starter now in Carolina
RE: RE: RE: Jones is terrible  
Mike in NY : 11/15/2021 5:17 pm : link
In comment 15454814 Debaser said:
Quote:
In comment 15454807 Mike in NY said:


Quote:


In comment 15454785 Debaser said:


Quote:




Quote:



Can a good QB be held back on a bad team?

Just kidding guys. We all know the truth. Of course they can.



If the Giants have the worst line and the affects QB play, then who are some of the other bad lines in the league?

And who are their Qbs? I bet their QBs are better than Jones. Jones is the worst starter in NFL minus the rookies (and some of them are better) and maybeDarnold. But then again I doubt he starts any more now that Cam Newton is back. So it is just Jones as the worst.

Go ahead and name some of the other bad lines in the NFL and their QB is better.



Considering how bad Jared Goff has been away from Sean McVay (yesterday was the first game he didn't lose in his career) I would not say he is necessarily better than Jones. He is better than whomever is starting in New Orleans IMHO. Houston's QB's have played like crap. Those plus Darnold and the rookies I would say are worse than Daniel Jones. The only rookie who has performed better is Mac Jones and even that is an incomplete at this time. I would rank Daniel Jones on par with whomever is starting in Miami and Washington. Jalen Hurts has better stats, but it has not produced noticeably more wins. I am leaving off QB's who were not expected to play at all (like Rudolph, Love, Mike White)



Jones is better than Goff WTF fuck no. And Cam Newton is the starter now in Carolina


How many wins does Goff have when McVay is not head coach?
Why argue with Debaser?  
Thunderstruck27 : 11/15/2021 5:21 pm : link
he is an absolute shitlord.
no offense Debaser
Jones v. Goff  
Mike in NY : 11/15/2021 5:24 pm : link
Goff can't do what Jones can running the ball, in the equivalent of about a game or two more of pass opportunities this year he has the same number of TD's, more INT's, more sacks, slightly higher completion %, lower Y/A, lower AY/A, lower Y/C. Goff has 1 game with more than 20 points on offense (33 against SF in Week 1 but 16 were in garbage time with less than 2 minutes left). Jones has been above 20 points in 4 games (not counting Dallas because he got hurt). By all means if you want Goff take him.
If you asked non-Giants and non-Browns fans,  
Mike from SI : 11/15/2021 5:31 pm : link
I believe most would say that they'd prefer Baker.
AND FOR  
Debaser : 11/15/2021 5:35 pm : link
The chest beating about being better than Darnold. All the excuses apply just as much to him.

The difference is he plays well when his line was healthy.

He has flashes of excellent play ; marches his team down the field and wins games ; wins three in a row in a new team.

I’ve never seen jones do that ever
B  
CT Charlie : 11/15/2021 5:48 pm : link
easy.
CLINGING to Darnold is fun to watch  
UConn4523 : 11/15/2021 5:51 pm : link
please tell us more!
RE: AND FOR  
bw in dc : 11/15/2021 5:54 pm : link
In comment 15454835 Debaser said:
Quote:
The chest beating about being better than Darnold. All the excuses apply just as much to him.



With all due respect, and I have been a vocal critic of Jones since day one, I don't think Darnold will ever start a game in the NFL again (unless the starter is injured). He's imploded the last month.

And I actually would take Jones over him right now...
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 11/15/2021 7:03 pm : link
I'd take DJ over Baker, but I'd rather not have either. Haha.
RE: CLINGING to Darnold is fun to watch  
Debaser : 11/15/2021 7:26 pm : link
In comment 15454851 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
please tell us more!


Clinging to jones is depressing to watch / don’t tell us more
RE: Jones v. Goff  
Debaser : 11/15/2021 7:29 pm : link
In comment 15454823 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
Goff can't do what Jones can running the ball, in the equivalent of about a game or two more of pass opportunities this year he has the same number of TD's, more INT's, more sacks, slightly higher completion %, lower Y/A, lower AY/A, lower Y/C. Goff has 1 game with more than 20 points on offense (33 against SF in Week 1 but 16 were in garbage time with less than 2 minutes left). Jones has been above 20 points in 4 games (not counting Dallas because he got hurt). By all means if you want Goff take him.


You serious with this? The lions are openly in rebuild mode. Much to their credit. They recognize their suckiness and trade assets for a bunch of draft picks. They don’t max out the credit card to be a .300 team.
Darnold is not a starter  
Jerry in_DC : 11/15/2021 8:07 pm : link
He's not good. Jones is better than him.

Guys like Jones and Goff are low end starters/ high end backup. They're both buoyed by their draft status at this point. If they were 3rd round picks, they'd both be backups by now.

Id take Jones over Goff for mobility. If you have a bad starter, I like one that can move. But they are in the same tier.
RE: RE: Jones v. Goff  
Mike in NY : 11/15/2021 8:11 pm : link
In comment 15454917 Debaser said:
Quote:
In comment 15454823 Mike in NY said:


Quote:


Goff can't do what Jones can running the ball, in the equivalent of about a game or two more of pass opportunities this year he has the same number of TD's, more INT's, more sacks, slightly higher completion %, lower Y/A, lower AY/A, lower Y/C. Goff has 1 game with more than 20 points on offense (33 against SF in Week 1 but 16 were in garbage time with less than 2 minutes left). Jones has been above 20 points in 4 games (not counting Dallas because he got hurt). By all means if you want Goff take him.



You serious with this? The lions are openly in rebuild mode. Much to their credit. They recognize their suckiness and trade assets for a bunch of draft picks. They don’t max out the credit card to be a .300 team.


Not including unknown compensatory picks, Detroit has an extra 1st in 2022 (from a Super Bowl contender), but no 4th and 5th. Giants have an extra 1st (from a bottom 10 team), 3rd, and 5th. I am not counting rounds where either us or Detroit don’t have original pick but have a different team’s pick.
RE: Darnold is not a starter  
Debaser : 11/15/2021 8:46 pm : link
In comment 15454963 Jerry in_DC said:
Quote:
He's not good. Jones is better than him.

Guys like Jones and Goff are low end starters/ high end backup. They're both buoyed by their draft status at this point. If they were 3rd round picks, they'd both be backups by now.

Id take Jones over Goff for mobility. If you have a bad starter, I like one that can move. But they are in the same tier.


Bullshit Jones is. How do you know anyway? Goff has been in the playoffs played on a good team. Got traded for a premier qb in the league. I’ve seen Goff win a playoff game with a broken thumb. He was pretty much the best college player in his draft class

Jones and this “legs” and this whole thing . Jones is reckless when he runs and still thinks he is playing same Forrest where he was bigger than some of The linebackers. He is going to get hurt. Look at Lamar running he runs out of bounds; slides ; rolls with punches when he is going to get hit. How many times does jones lower his shoulder and fumbles or get his bell rung? Sometimes it works. Goff is a better passer and better QB plain and simple
Goff is having a horrendous year...  
bw in dc : 11/15/2021 8:51 pm : link
I believe he's basically last in QBR, last in YPA, and near the bottom with AY/A.

Jones is not a very good QB, either. But he's clearly better than Goff right now.
RE: Goff is having a horrendous year...  
Debaser : 11/15/2021 9:28 pm : link
In comment 15455036 bw in dc said:
Quote:
I believe he's basically last in QBR, last in YPA, and near the bottom with AY/A.

Jones is not a very good QB, either. But he's clearly better than Goff right now.


Every one of these guys you guys claim is not a starter is one for two teams now in two instances.You don’t start for 2 different NFL teams and not be a starter. Where would jones be starting if not for The Giants
And what you get to pick the time frame?  
Debaser : 11/15/2021 9:32 pm : link
Ok why not say for this month jones is abetted starter than Tom Brady and Russ Wilson . They both had bad days yesterday.

The bottom line is jones is not an nfl qb starter. You don’t start and play on an offense like this where your coaches are more concerned with you looking bad than winning games or who knows why they’re doing this. He is an amateur QB who bird dogs receiver s and cannot go through reads . Goff has played better he is playing on a dreadful team that is inarguably the worst Iin the league
RE: And what you get to pick the time frame?  
bw in dc : 11/15/2021 10:16 pm : link
In comment 15455099 Debaser said:
Quote:
Ok why not say for this month jones is abetted starter than Tom Brady and Russ Wilson . They both had bad days yesterday.



That's silly. The conversation is today's version of Goff versus today's version of Jones. And by almost every key metric, Jones is better.

Again, that doesn't mean Jones is a good NFL QB. It just means we have found existing starter who is performing worse than Jones.
Deebo has turned into some helluva player.  
Producer : 11/15/2021 10:30 pm : link
.
Stats  
Debaser : 11/15/2021 10:47 pm : link
By every “metric” what nonsense. He magically became a worse QB after getting traded ? Like the numbers have nothing to do what team he plays on?

I’m sure the Detroit lions must be kicking themselves for trading for Goff when they should have called the giants and traded for jones.

Goff is playing in a horrible team. And jones is playing on a team that could be much better with a different QB.
Again “today’s version “ of Goff is an nfl starter  
Debaser : 11/15/2021 10:49 pm : link
On 2 teams. Jones is not starting anywhere except the Giants
Is this defense of Goff  
dancing blue bear : 11/15/2021 11:42 pm : link
Predicated on him playing on an awful team? The irony is rich

He should just elevate the lions. You know.

RE: Is this defense of Goff  
Debaser : 11/16/2021 4:48 am : link
In comment 15455192 dancing blue bear said:
Quote:
Predicated on him playing on an awful team? The irony is rich

He should just elevate the lions. You know.



Lions have a much worse roster. Lions are in rebuild mode. Giants on the other hand apparently are in win now mode . They’ maxed a credit card to get jones “weapons” showing it was a waste since he can’t do anything with them and only won 3 games.

This whole thing of “ if jones played on Dallas blah blah...” or “if only jones had this oline...” is not needed with Goff; he’s played better on another team; played and won big games. He’s a starting nfl QB that can do fundamental things like go through reads ,has a good throwing arm etc.

jones in his third year is missing those things still and yet were supposed to believe somehow straight line running is supposed to make up for that and he’s actually better than other QBs that have proved to be starters by not stats but obviously passing the eyectest from a pro teams QBs evaluation? No way!
RE: B  
DisgruntledNYGfan : 11/16/2021 10:36 pm : link
In comment 15454231 DonQuixote said:
Quote:
.


Mayfield has a top 5 OL, (had) near elite WRs, two stud RBs, a good TE and a functional defense, and is still mediocre. No thanks. DJ on that team wins more games than Mayfield.
RE: RE: B  
Producer : 11/16/2021 10:45 pm : link
In comment 15456137 DisgruntledNYGfan said:
Quote:
In comment 15454231 DonQuixote said:


Quote:


.



Mayfield has a top 5 OL, (had) near elite WRs, two stud RBs, a good TE and a functional defense, and is still mediocre. No thanks. DJ on that team wins more games than Mayfield.


the Browns don't have near elite WRs and the TEs aren't good. DJ has never played as well as Mayfield. You should start dealing with reality.
RE: Again “today’s version “ of Goff is an nfl starter  
Route 9 : 11/17/2021 2:37 am : link
In comment 15455179 Debaser said:
Quote:
On 2 teams. Jones is not starting anywhere except the Giants


I think he'd be a good backup QB for the Chiefs or Packers.
RE: RE: RE: B  
Mike in NY : 11/17/2021 5:55 am : link
In comment 15456142 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15456137 DisgruntledNYGfan said:


Quote:


In comment 15454231 DonQuixote said:


Quote:


.



Mayfield has a top 5 OL, (had) near elite WRs, two stud RBs, a good TE and a functional defense, and is still mediocre. No thanks. DJ on that team wins more games than Mayfield.



the Browns don't have near elite WRs and the TEs aren't good. DJ has never played as well as Mayfield. You should start dealing with reality.


Landry and OBJ were not chopped liver when they were acquired. Austin Hooper was a 2 time Pro Bowl TE with at least 71 catches in each of his prior two seasons before signing with Cleveland. All went to crap playing with Mayfield despite the running game and OL which you have acknowledged in your lack of disagreement.
So how are you guys drawing these conclusions about JOnes?  
Debaser : 11/17/2021 2:18 pm : link
So you take his stats from 3 years ago use that is the benchmark; completely ignore everything in between, grade him on a huge curve because of this o line and give him 25 bonus points because he is a mobile QB? And you subsequently take Dak's or Mayfields stats and then discount them accordingly for having a great line?

Is that pretty much how you are doing this?
Darnold > jones  
Debaser : 11/17/2021 3:08 pm : link
You know what I’m throwing that out there. Look at it this way — bucs secondary banged up so what’s the plan Stan ? Jones shooting out the lights and throwing 4 TD and 400 yards no it’s the same old thing of playing ultra conservative. Sorry but that is because Garrett knows jones will just turn the ball over 40x

The panthers are in a similar situation with the giants ; banged up oline and not very good team generally speaking.

But has darnold played any better when his line was healthy and before he played hurt — yes he did. Did jones beat teams that were bad teams and otherwise look good and stomp
Any teams ... no he did not.

You add all that up and realize jones has it got any better and it’s prety much the same guyband same story he was at duke. Jones would be a third round pick under normal circumstances....

Also cam newton is going to show you that a 3x retread on bad team is also going to throw more ints than touchdowns also and not be the answer for the panthers. They’re just not a good team.

You add that all up: darnold > jones
RE: RE: RE: B  
DisgruntledNYGfan : 11/17/2021 6:33 pm : link
In comment 15456142 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15456137 DisgruntledNYGfan said:


Quote:


In comment 15454231 DonQuixote said:


Quote:


.



Mayfield has a top 5 OL, (had) near elite WRs, two stud RBs, a good TE and a functional defense, and is still mediocre. No thanks. DJ on that team wins more games than Mayfield.



the Browns don't have near elite WRs and the TEs aren't good. DJ has never played as well as Mayfield. You should start dealing with reality.


*I* should start dealing with reality?? Bitch please, lol.

Up until last week, Mayfield had OBJ and Landry. People- Jones as a no. 3.

Njoku was a first round pick and Hooper was the highest paid TE in the NFL when the Browns signed him after putting up numbers in Atlanta.

But even forgetting the WRs and TEs, he still has a top 5 OL Plus Hunt and Chubb at RB. Way more than what Jones has.

Not saying Jones is great. I just think Mayfield sucks.

RE: So how are you guys drawing these conclusions about JOnes?  
Route 9 : 11/17/2021 6:59 pm : link
In comment 15456617 Debaser said:
Quote:
So you take his stats from 3 years ago use that is the benchmark; completely ignore everything in between, grade him on a huge curve because of this o line and give him 25 bonus points because he is a mobile QB? And you subsequently take Dak's or Mayfields stats and then discount them accordingly for having a great line?

Is that pretty much how you are doing this?


The "all credit/no blame" is a very common condition which is present in the modern day sports fan.
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