Knowing what you know now, would you stay put, get the bears 2022 first and fourth round picks, draft Toney and use the bears 2021 5th rounder to move up for Aaron Robinson? Or would you mix the whole thing and get Slater or Parsons?
We traded the 11th pick for the 20th pick and what looks like a top ten pick in this draft coming up plus the other picks. Its a no brainer the trade was awesome for the Giants.
We traded the 11th pick for the 20th pick and what looks like a top ten pick in this draft coming up plus the other picks. Its a no brainer the trade was awesome for the Giants.
No brainer? Parsons is a DPOY candidate. It's anything but a no brainer.
The more I watch football the more I am convinced that quality > quantity.
I'd have to think long and hard about this one, but I may say fuck all that extra crap and give me Parsons. THANK GOD we got a first next year or i'd be losing my shit if we just stood pat and took Toney or whoever.
Not to mention, if we get Parsons dallas isn't steamrolling to the #1 seed. And that fucking blows.
said the same thing last offseason ill say it again now, the Giants need to focus on getting difference makers. Fuck the holes and weak spots. DIFFERENCE MAKERS. Guys who ruin games or win games. Not these good players that might fill a hole after 1-2 years. Trade, sign, steal or cheap I don't care, get fucking stars in here. You win titles with star power.
The one mitigating factor is the extra #1 in 2022, that could soften the blow for me. But, gun to my head I would've picked Parsons, he's a franchise talent.
I get you, but how do you know we aren't winning more games with Parsons? We don't win that game in Washington? We don't get ONE stop in those 2 games thanks to a bad ass front seven player like Parsons? We might be 5-5 right now with Parsons here, assuming these wing nuts here knew how to deploy him.
I was there with you all spring screaming or echoing your shouts to pick this guy.
I am not always blinded by the blue, lol...I usually speak truthful objective but I am a dreamer too...I want to believe in my teams UNTIL they shit the bed and then I accept and would make the hard decisions.
but the guy has 28 NFL catches for 352 yards halfway through the season. He has exactly one 100 yard receiving game.
"Elite weapon" is way too premature.
We traded the 11th pick for the 20th pick and what looks like a top ten pick in this draft coming up plus the other picks. Its a no brainer the trade was awesome for the Giants.
No brainer? Parsons is a DPOY candidate. It's anything but a no brainer.
The more I watch football the more I am convinced that quality > quantity.
I'd have to think long and hard about this one, but I may say fuck all that extra crap and give me Parsons. THANK GOD we got a first next year or i'd be losing my shit if we just stood pat and took Toney or whoever.
Not to mention, if we get Parsons dallas isn't steamrolling to the #1 seed. And that fucking blows.
Agreed on all points. Man, Parsons is a fucking animal.
RE: RE: I always felt we should have gotten more from Chicago
I get you, but how do you know we aren't winning more games with Parsons? We don't win that game in Washington? We don't get ONE stop in those 2 games thanks to a bad ass front seven player like Parsons? We might be 5-5 right now with Parsons here, assuming these wing nuts here knew how to deploy him.
I like the trade. But wish we got one more high pick. At the time I wanted Slater. Parsons obviously would have been a great pick too.
but it's way premature to label him an elite weapon. He's got to be able to run some actual vertical routes or DCs are going to start locking him down. He's also a non-elite brain with some judgement caps to fix.
must start attacking with more vertical routes, especially the deeper outer thirds versus a cover two. You gotta make the backend uncomfortable. Giants tend to make it easy on a defense.
I was in favor of Parsons but we have to see what next years picks produces from both trade downs. One draft can drastically change a team. Don't discount that 3rd rounder from Miami as well in the 2nd round trade down.
I think they will trade down again in the 1st if possible. Its a deep draft.
I think Toney has a chance to be really good. His value will be more apparent with a true 1 receiver and when they can run the ball more consistently. This guy exploiting the underneath stuff is deadly.
Parsons is going to torment the Giants for the next 8-10 years
I would rather he torment Dallas. In addition, the odds of a receiver getting injured are greater than the odds of an edge rusher getting injured. I would not have made the trade.
Giants weren't drafting Parsons, at least not at #11. He had too many character concerns. DG couldn't risk another Baker fiasco. Toney of course also had character concerns, which is why I wanted Paye. But Toney was picked at #20 and after we had already acquired Chicago's #1 next year.
Toney plus all the picks we got from Chicago is also more valuable than Slater. But I agree that conclusion assumes we get an impact player from Chicago's #1 next yea, which is why I think this discussion is at least slightly premature.
I think I remember JonC and one other poster who were equally sold but said they'd never take him.
I liked the trade down in theory but overall even if Toney pans out results wise he seems like another guy already that may be dangerous to pay. Not durable, potential distraction etc.
I was beating the drum for the OL for this exact reason. We had to see what Jones is. I think we have but I can see the argument for the OL being garbage (but that is very much a self inflicted wound)
Regardless what the Giants seem not to understand is something many on this site have. You build the OL and get your QB and then you fill in the skill positions which can be rather fungible if you get those other two things right.
I honestly can't even believe we are heading for another year where the claims are "you can't evaluate the QB" with the amount of resources we invested in skill positions seemingly for that purpose.
It is the Golladay and Toney thing that is really confounding and even a bit enraging. It's like they are so busy plugging one hole on the boat that there are others holes in the boat that they are ignoring.
And then they act like they know things the fans don't about the holes they are ignoring.
How anyone looks at the way we allocate assets and has any degree of confidence in these people at this point is truly a feat of blind optimism.
Truth is the trade is made with the idea of maximizing the chances of getting a Parsons type player. You hope to get 2. Or at least one and a second really good one.
Once you know you have the Parsons level, you are sort of changing the equation. At the draft, Parsons was just a prospect. Now he is showing he is more than that. So do you take the certainty of now over the maximizing chances of then? Probably. But if you nail the picks, you win the trade no matter what they did.
I thought it might be you who also really wanted Slater, I seem to remember that. Honestly I only remember the JonC thing more because he tends to have good info and I remember thinking well that sucks that we had zero interest in him
It's more to fair to say that I'm jumping the gun - calling Toney
He was not popular going into the draft with his issues he had in college. He was not popular everyone was hell bent with getting a wide receiver such as Smith. Hindsight being 20 20 everyone is a great drafter.
I thought Slater a great solution for the OL because of his versatility to literally play every position, especially for a coach like Judge who preaches his preference for multiple players.
As a lifelong PSU fan, Parsons ability jumped off the screen. The off the field concerns were personality based. And for the Giants, God forbid they manage a great talent with a big personality...
Ironically, we drafted a player with more baggage in Toney...
Toney has shown to be am elite weapon with significant upside.
Slater is better than expected, but getting a top OL with the pick from Chicago is a reasonable expectation.
Parsons is a player, but not sure how we would have used him. Regardless, IMO Toney + Chi 1st rounder > Pasrsons
toney has played meaningful snaps in like what, 3-4 games? the only one where he made a difference he had glennon throwing him the ball (189 yards). over half of his production on the season came from that one game.
they traded the fifth they got from chicago to move up and draft a player who has yet to play one game.
the other two picks (2022 1st and 4th) haven't been made yet and it's a crapshoot whether either will amount to anything, and we all know the giants recent history of horrifically botching first round draft picks (jones, baker, barkley, engram, flowers, apple, etc etc).
has fallen into the draft trap of see hole, plug hole and totally get stuck filling holes on paper because they're chasing positions, while leaving better talent on the board.
It's got to stop or you will continuing chasing the talent and playing positional void whackamole.
Pick Parsons and figure out how to unleash him and then build the talent around him. Drafting by positional need has a lot to do with the state of the 2021 Giants, and it sucks to watch it happen.
has fallen into the draft trap of see hole, plug hole and totally get stuck filling holes on paper because they're chasing positions, while leaving better talent on the board.
It's got to stop or you will continuing chasing the talent and playing positional void whackamole.
Pick Parsons and figure out how to unleash him and then build the talent around him. Drafting by positional need has a lot to do with the state of the 2021 Giants, and it sucks to watch it happen.
This is absolutely the truth. Go and look at the current GBN thread and all the talk is about drafting OT and EDGE.
We got a offensive weapon, a possible CB starter or at least back up, and , needing ER and OL, fell into a draft deep in IOL and strong in the top 3-5 ER, with an extra pick along with our own, likely both to be in the top 16.
And other trades that give us bites at more OL apple, or wherever they see fit.
Bears may have a franchise QB, but the team needed to try to better itself with talented youth.
I’m OK with the trade.
The scouts and analytics better be ‘on’.
but it's way premature to label him an elite weapon. He's got to be able to run some actual vertical routes or DCs are going to start locking him down. He's also a non-elite brain with some judgement caps to fix.
We aren’t even using Golladay as intended. Safe to say our OL and Jones are dictating what the WRs can and can’t do.
has fallen into the draft trap of see hole, plug hole and totally get stuck filling holes on paper because they're chasing positions, while leaving better talent on the board.
It's got to stop or you will continuing chasing the talent and playing positional void whackamole.
Pick Parsons and figure out how to unleash him and then build the talent around him. Drafting by positional need has a lot to do with the state of the 2021 Giants, and it sucks to watch it happen.
This is absolutely the truth. Go and look at the current GBN thread and all the talk is about drafting OT and EDGE.
Draft players, not positions.
amazing how the constant harping about not getting the line corrected is ignored when convenient. Would Parson have been help, probably. Would Slater have helped - absolutely. Does Toney and a second #1 help - remains to be seen. Toney looks real. Having 2 #1s in 2022 should help more with the right GM calling the shots.
I wanted Parsons and would take him in a heartbeat over the pick
Same for Slater. The pick is nice, I don't hate it, but I feel like they maybe got a little too cute. Toney has flashed but nothing that indicates long term building block. Meanwhile the OL is still in shambles and the defense lacks an identity and tone setter.
The point is to acquire talent, not accumulate picks. I feel like a lot of folks here fall into the draft simulator mindset.
but it's way premature to label him an elite weapon. He's got to be able to run some actual vertical routes or DCs are going to start locking him down. He's also a non-elite brain with some judgement caps to fix.
We aren’t even using Golladay as intended. Safe to say our OL and Jones are dictating what the WRs can and can’t do.
Garrett gets paid to find a way. They don't have to win the games, they can still be a losing team, but they must show something more competent than current product which is cellar dweller quality. Can't just sit around and point fingers and wish it away. If that's the case start cleaning house.
RE: I wanted Parsons and would take him in a heartbeat over the pick
The point is to acquire talent, not accumulate picks. I feel like a lot of folks here fall into the draft simulator mindset.
That's a very good point. Having more and more picks doesn't mean success (sure, the more attempts might lead to the blind squirrel finding a nut outcome...).
What matters, and let me makes sure my Captain Obvious hat is on securely, it hitting on the picks.
Look at the Rams. They constantly trade picks and end-up with fewer and fewer picks per draft. But what Snead/McVey do well is hit on their limited picks.
If you believe Parsons was the pick (rumor was the team had reservations about his character) then the question becomes is
Parson > Toney + 2021 Bears 1st rounder?
Lets say that 2021 Bears 1st rounder allows the Giants to get a stud ER or stud OL player, then the combination of Toney and the extra 1st rounder makes it a good trade.
RE: RE: I wanted Parsons and would take him in a heartbeat over the pick
The point is to acquire talent, not accumulate picks. I feel like a lot of folks here fall into the draft simulator mindset.
That's a very good point. Having more and more picks doesn't mean success (sure, the more attempts might lead to the blind squirrel finding a nut outcome...).
What matters, and let me makes sure my Captain Obvious hat is on securely, it hitting on the picks.
Look at the Rams. They constantly trade picks and end-up with fewer and fewer picks per draft. But what Snead/McVey do well is hit on their limited picks.
They also now have a smaller window in which to win and if they do not get at least one SB win, there will be hell to pay with a limited way out.
Not sure how to look at the Rams. Good, yes. Great, maybe. Sure fire NFC Champ, could be?
but it's way premature to label him an elite weapon. He's got to be able to run some actual vertical routes or DCs are going to start locking him down. He's also a non-elite brain with some judgement caps to fix.
We aren’t even using Golladay as intended. Safe to say our OL and Jones are dictating what the WRs can and can’t do.
Garrett gets paid to find a way. They don't have to win the games, they can still be a losing team, but they must show something more competent than current product which is cellar dweller quality. Can't just sit around and point fingers and wish it away. If that's the case start cleaning house.
has fallen into the draft trap of see hole, plug hole and totally get stuck filling holes on paper because they're chasing positions, while leaving better talent on the board.
It's got to stop or you will continuing chasing the talent and playing positional void whackamole.
Pick Parsons and figure out how to unleash him and then build the talent around him. Drafting by positional need has a lot to do with the state of the 2021 Giants, and it sucks to watch it happen.
This is absolutely the truth. Go and look at the current GBN thread and all the talk is about drafting OT and EDGE.
Draft players, not positions.
amazing how the constant harping about not getting the line corrected is ignored when convenient. Would Parson have been help, probably. Would Slater have helped - absolutely. Does Toney and a second #1 help - remains to be seen. Toney looks real. Having 2 #1s in 2022 should help more with the right GM calling the shots.
Section125 actually with the correct sentiment as to the OL.
All season long when the bad OL product is on the field, everybody criticizes the GM and says the Giants absolutely have to prioritize Offensive Line in the next draft.
And then when Spring rolls around the majority of those fans see all the cool, shiny toys in the Draft window and pocket their feelings about the OL. At least until the season starts and they see the bad product continue and then they blame the GM again.
but his value on the football field is nowhere near Parsons'. He shows promise and checks a box for the talent-starved Giants with some style admist another bleak, painful season of poor offense. But, ...
It's just been done really poorly. Solder, Thomas, Zeitler, Hernandez, Peart, Omameh, Lemieux...and I'm probably missing others - that's a significant investment in a period of only three offseasons ('18, '19, '20).
It's been terribly put together, and the OL players themselves haven't been helped by Garrett (scheme) or Jones and Barkley (execution).
This is the nuts and bolts of why the Giants are a bad team. It's not just one or two mistakes. The policies that are in place are deeply flawed and really in a deeply flawed product.
Recall seeing him a few times now letting his emotions get the best of him. Occurred late in the WFT game and he got a good lecture from Judge and stormed off to the bench. Then of course he threw a punch and got ejected from the Dallas game a few weeks later.
Keep in mind that he hasn't exactly played that many games/snaps yet. Maybe he is frustrated with his role, or the injuries or maybe it's just who he is going to be in the heat of battle. Good luck with that..
Parsons is a great talent but before the draft I heard he was not in the Giants plans because of character. So not making the trade doesnt mean he all of the sudden would have been a pick.
Slater is another player that shows promise but again I heard we had no interest.
Could the info on both players have been wrong absolutely.
Toney didnt practice all offseason but he flashes. Maybe he is nothing more than a gimmick guy. Who knows yet. I think he has to be evaluated more.
Based on the info at the time, I think it was a great trade.
Based on the info we have now, I think you could have gone either route and been successful. All 3 seem to be players with strong careers ahead. I think Toney and the top 10 pick is still the way to go. I dont know what the draft will be like yet but I think Toney will be a good player and we still have the potential to get a great one.
I do think we have to get back to drafting the best available regardless of position like others have said. Injuries take a strong position and make it weak in a heartbeat. Getting players other teams have to gameplan around is important. Right now we have very few players in that category so when you have a chance to get one you have to take it. I personally dont think either Parsons or Slater was considered cant miss at the time.
Sy had Slater pegged as at 85 and at Guard
Sy had Parsons at 84
Sy had Toney at 77 but also mentioned some teams had him in top 5
I wish it were that simple but you know it isn't. Toney has had a couple big games. The picks are a completely unknown commodity and there is no guarantee the organization will hit on them. Meanwhile Parsons is the presumptive defensive rookie of the year and has been the exact type of player this defense sorely needs.
Ultimately the jury is still out and talking with any kind of certainty is kind of foolish.
First, I think the club would have been helped big time by either Slater or Parsons especially Slater. One stud on the OL would have made a huge difference. But, if you want the extra 1 in 2022, the Giants would have been better off with Darrislaw, the big tackle. He may not be Slater but he’s a huge upgrade over Peart and that would have helped big time and maybe more if Peart could play inside. Toney has skills but more in the gadget department and that’s a luxury for a bad team.
Of course Parsons and Slater have shown themselves
Slater was the right pick. This should be especially obvious to all the “DJ needs a better line folks”. We could at least have evaluated DJ behind much better protection. Look at Dallas with their line. Draft quality players at the most important and most expensive positions. It’s a mystery why Getty said he was going to fix the O line yet passes on a really safe bet like RS and especially so because RS was projected as a guy who could play every position along the line. Seriously, how much better is this team with just the addition of RS? I think we’re a lot better and the future is also much clearer.
As far as Tooney, it’s way too soon to tell if he’s going to be a great player. But even if he is, there’s lot of receivers available in the every draft and quality play makers get drafted at WR out of the top 20 every year.
Having said all this, I’m not killing Getty for the trade. It’s defensible and may still wind up being a positive. But, then again, Getty is such a lousy GM he’s graded on a curve here.
The Giants cashed 2 big chips on WR, and a medium chip on TE.
I take this a direct reaction to Judge saying Jones needed better weapons and better coaching. Doesn’t seem like Judge made much movement on the latter, but Gettleman did on the former.
I like Toney, but he’s a joystick guy right now. I’d rather the “weapon” reps go to Barkley. I agree with Jon, he’s got to be a complete receiver. There’s a graveyard of joystick guys who never became WRs. TBD on Toney.
No one’s ever regretted bookend tackles or a 3-down linebacker. Higher floors.
DG mocks people and says things like the below quote. You only get that brash and overconfident if the people around you agree with what you are doing. If JJ isn't saying "I need a better OL to see what I've got in DJ" then he isn't doing his job either.
The whole sequence of events is maddening. The fan base and media raising enough noise about the continued poor results trying to put the right offensive line and depth together that it merits a response then the guy basically mocking the idea as if this team that has not at all recently shown they are smarter than anyone still thinks they are smarter than everyone.
(May 2021) “It’s really apparent that we have a little more confidence in our offensive linemen than you guys do. So I’m just going to say we’re happy with the group that we have."
was having the capital to move up if the Giants needed a QB in 2022. Thankfully it looks like DJ will at least be serviceable past this year, but at the time of the draft the Giants needed to have Plan B. Having two top ten pics would have made getting a QB much easier.
i think i would do the trade again i would do it again. Parsons looks very good as does Slater, but when Toney has been healthy he has basically been uncoverable and a big weapon for us. Let's not forget that amongst the talk about Parsons and Slater. Toney has a really bright future.
The extra first rounder which could be really high plus the late round pick is definitely worth taking Toney over those guys IMO.
I think I remember JonC and one other poster who were equally sold but said they'd never take him.
I liked the trade down in theory but overall even if Toney pans out results wise he seems like another guy already that may be dangerous to pay. Not durable, potential distraction etc.
I was beating the drum for the OL for this exact reason. We had to see what Jones is. I think we have but I can see the argument for the OL being garbage (but that is very much a self inflicted wound)
Regardless what the Giants seem not to understand is something many on this site have. You build the OL and get your QB and then you fill in the skill positions which can be rather fungible if you get those other two things right.
I honestly can't even believe we are heading for another year where the claims are "you can't evaluate the QB" with the amount of resources we invested in skill positions seemingly for that purpose.
It is the Golladay and Toney thing that is really confounding and even a bit enraging. It's like they are so busy plugging one hole on the boat that there are others holes in the boat that they are ignoring.
And then they act like they know things the fans don't about the holes they are ignoring.
How anyone looks at the way we allocate assets and has any degree of confidence in these people at this point is truly a feat of blind optimism.
+10000000000000000000000000000000000000000
If we were going to pick at that spot and not trade down, I wanted Slater. Argued a ton with many on here that either wanted Paye or wanted a WR. There was very little discussion on Parsons because he had off-field issues and Giants don't tend to go with that.
The OL to me was and is the most critical.
With that said, I do love the 2022 shot of if they love a QB.
GreatDayne nails it with DG's arrogance yet someone that has been so awful.
RE: The big thing to me is that in some of these press conferences where
DG mocks people and says things like the below quote. You only get that brash and overconfident if the people around you agree with what you are doing. If JJ isn't saying "I need a better OL to see what I've got in DJ" then he isn't doing his job either.
The whole sequence of events is maddening. The fan base and media raising enough noise about the continued poor results trying to put the right offensive line and depth together that it merits a response then the guy basically mocking the idea as if this team that has not at all recently shown they are smarter than anyone still thinks they are smarter than everyone.
(May 2021) “It’s really apparent that we have a little more confidence in our offensive linemen than you guys do. So I’m just going to say we’re happy with the group that we have."
Dave Gettleman’s failed promises - ( New Window )
This has just been a microcosm of the asshole he's been since he came aboard.
Parsons is a great talent but before the draft I heard he was not in the Giants plans because of character. So not making the trade doesnt mean he all of the sudden would have been a pick.
Slater is another player that shows promise but again I heard we had no interest.
Could the info on both players have been wrong absolutely.
Toney didnt practice all offseason but he flashes. Maybe he is nothing more than a gimmick guy. Who knows yet. I think he has to be evaluated more.
Based on the info at the time, I think it was a great trade.
Based on the info we have now, I think you could have gone either route and been successful. All 3 seem to be players with strong careers ahead. I think Toney and the top 10 pick is still the way to go. I dont know what the draft will be like yet but I think Toney will be a good player and we still have the potential to get a great one.
I do think we have to get back to drafting the best available regardless of position like others have said. Injuries take a strong position and make it weak in a heartbeat. Getting players other teams have to gameplan around is important. Right now we have very few players in that category so when you have a chance to get one you have to take it. I personally dont think either Parsons or Slater was considered cant miss at the time.
Sy had Slater pegged as at 85 and at Guard
Sy had Parsons at 84
Sy had Toney at 77 but also mentioned some teams had him in top 5
Depends on your definition of "can't miss" but I thought both were considered can't miss to a degree which is why they were in the discussions of being drafted early.
Even if the tackle can’t cut it — you have a guard.
Want to really make some heads explode here? The last two 1st round tackles Reese drafted are two of the better blocking guards in the NFL. Today.
You really can't make it up...can you?
But that's an excellent point about OLT. You can always move them inside, or to the other T side.
True... but then you used a top pick for a guard. Not sure why we simply cannot draft tackles. Hopefully Thomas changes that for us.
Meanwhile, this is why I prefer to get my tackles via free agency. You can still fuck that up (Solder), but you at least have a chance to have someone else teach him the position and watch him play the position in the NFL first.
We are going to have a very good draft pick next spring.
I think picking Toney after the trade down is a mistake and believe we need to trade him this spring. All the warning lights about character and judgement issues are flashing red.
Haven’t we learned from Beckham? The good news is that we can probably recoup a high draft pick from Toney.
I think picking Toney after the trade down is a mistake and believe we need to trade him this spring. All the warning lights about character and judgement issues are flashing red.
Haven’t we learned from Beckham? The good news is that we can probably recoup a high draft pick from Toney.
Huh? So Toney has warning lights about some kind of issues and yet the Giants can trade him for a high draft pick?
BTW, what are the character issues? The tweet about Ruggs?
The gun incident, Sy’s back channel warning, the personal foul, the training camp non participation and then the tweet. It wasn’t the tweet per se, although that was dumb. It’s that it showed Toney was hazy about the difference between young men doing stupid things and criminal activity that leads to death. He apparently doesn’t grok the fundamental difference between the two. Which means he is a fairly sizable risk to shame the franchise the next time he is in a stupid situation that requires adult decisionmaking.
Meanwhile he has 28 receptions midway through his rookie season, his longest reception is 38 yards and he is still looking to score his first TD. An intriguing talent but give me a break about how he is some franchise talent. Beckham blew the doors off Toney in terms of jump off the screen talent and look how that turned out. And Beckham’s red flags were minimal compared to Toney’s at this stage of his career.
Personality is what caused a knife fight? Personality is shoving your junk in other players face? Guy has been quiet in the NFL for now but is a piece of garbage and it will re-surface. Slater would have been a nice pick, but guess the staff decided to pass on o-line after using 3 picks the year before, and want to see if those developed.
no, he doesn't. Toney's shown some interesting joystick agility and can be tough to tackle as a result. But, OB at his best was headed for Canton, let's get real.
The gun incident, Sy’s back channel warning, the personal foul, the training camp non participation and then the tweet. It wasn’t the tweet per se, although that was dumb. It’s that it showed Toney was hazy about the difference between young men doing stupid things and criminal activity that leads to death. He apparently doesn’t grok the fundamental difference between the two. Which means he is a fairly sizable risk to shame the franchise the next time he is in a stupid situation that requires adult decisionmaking.
Meanwhile he has 28 receptions midway through his rookie season, his longest reception is 38 yards and he is still looking to score his first TD. An intriguing talent but give me a break about how he is some franchise talent. Beckham blew the doors off Toney in terms of jump off the screen talent and look how that turned out. And Beckham’s red flags were minimal compared to Toney’s at this stage of his career.
Wake up.
Gun incident, had a legal gun on the backseat of the car and got a warning. Not much of an incident. 2nd Amendment
RE: Toney has more ability with the ball in his hands
In his first few seasons in the NFL, OBJ was the best WR I had seen since Rice. He was a threat to score every time he touched the ball. His quickness, burst, and acceleration were elite. And he caught everything.
The gun incident, Sy’s back channel warning, the personal foul, the training camp non participation and then the tweet. It wasn’t the tweet per se, although that was dumb. It’s that it showed Toney was hazy about the difference between young men doing stupid things and criminal activity that leads to death. He apparently doesn’t grok the fundamental difference between the two. Which means he is a fairly sizable risk to shame the franchise the next time he is in a stupid situation that requires adult decisionmaking.
Meanwhile he has 28 receptions midway through his rookie season, his longest reception is 38 yards and he is still looking to score his first TD. An intriguing talent but give me a break about how he is some franchise talent. Beckham blew the doors off Toney in terms of jump off the screen talent and look how that turned out. And Beckham’s red flags were minimal compared to Toney’s at this stage of his career.
Wake up.
Red flag on a couple injuries. Brilliance. Training camp was COVID into a hammy. Happens to fast twitch players, then getting his ankle rolled. Red Flags. I guess half the NFL has red flags then.
All your other red flags are minimal and stretches, like you are searching for a reason. The PF.
you have individuals that are eager to bend over backwards to praise players from opposing teams in order to discredit players from a team they claim to support.
There was less known about EVERY NFL prospect this year than ANY other year prior. Between the lack of combine participation, the zoom interviews, the abbreviated NCAA schedules, shoot...the Giants drafted a player that didn't play in a single game last year b/c his college team didn't play!
The draft is always a crap shoot - but there's strategy in craps, last year was like playing craps without knowing the rules (something I've done before..and if you're looking to lose money in a hurry - it's a great way to play).
Trading picks last year to get more picks this year might have been the smartest thing the NYG front office has done the past 10 years.
Even if the tackle can’t cut it — you have a guard.
Want to really make some heads explode here? The last two 1st round tackles Reese drafted are two of the better blocking guards in the NFL. Today.
You really can't make it up...can you?
But that's an excellent point about OLT. You can always move them inside, or to the other T side.
True... but then you used a top pick for a guard. Not sure why we simply cannot draft tackles. Hopefully Thomas changes that for us.
Meanwhile, this is why I prefer to get my tackles via free agency. You can still fuck that up (Solder), but you at least have a chance to have someone else teach him the position and watch him play the position in the NFL first.
I am completely the opposite on this thinking. Players at premium positions like Offensive Tackle should be acquired via the draft as long as you don't predict it will take years before he is "taught" how to play it.
An high priced OT can be obtained via Free Agency but your "window" of potentially winning better be very clear...
shows how desperate Giants fans are for any degree of success. Starved, depleted, and completely disconnected from reality are some, lol.
You've gone full tilt. Fans are excited by Toney, doesn't mean they are disconnected from reality. No real point in going to such an extreme, this isn't like you.
The gun incident, Sy’s back channel warning, the personal foul, the training camp non participation and then the tweet. It wasn’t the tweet per se, although that was dumb. It’s that it showed Toney was hazy about the difference between young men doing stupid things and criminal activity that leads to death. He apparently doesn’t grok the fundamental difference between the two. Which means he is a fairly sizable risk to shame the franchise the next time he is in a stupid situation that requires adult decisionmaking.
Meanwhile he has 28 receptions midway through his rookie season, his longest reception is 38 yards and he is still looking to score his first TD. An intriguing talent but give me a break about how he is some franchise talent. Beckham blew the doors off Toney in terms of jump off the screen talent and look how that turned out. And Beckham’s red flags were minimal compared to Toney’s at this stage of his career.
Wake up.
Red flag on a couple injuries. Brilliance. Training camp was COVID into a hammy. Happens to fast twitch players, then getting his ankle rolled. Red Flags. I guess half the NFL has red flags then.
All your other red flags are minimal and stretches, like you are searching for a reason. The PF.
you have individuals that are eager to bend over backwards to praise players from opposing teams in order to discredit players from a team they claim to support.
You really believe that is what is going on here?
Nobody likes to hear it's them, but the clear lack of objectivity on this board with regard to all things-Giants is what makes for tough threads...
shows how desperate Giants fans are for any degree of success. Starved, depleted, and completely disconnected from reality are some, lol.
You've gone full tilt. Fans are excited by Toney, doesn't mean they are disconnected from reality. No real point in going to such an extreme, this isn't like you.
It is strange. Something must have happened.
Anyway, as to the trade I'm still in a wait and see. At minimum the trade down has given me something else to be interested in this season even though I have no real issues with Chicago.
People here were good with drafting Slater #6 overall after he played ZERO games in 2020 ...
YET...
You need more games to figure out whether DJ should continue to function as the undisputed #1 QB moving forward.
The logic form some of you is mind-boggling. SO it's clear as day most of us figured it didn't make one bit of a difference that he didn't play in 2020. It's a proven fact that it hasn't.
And YET
posters continue to bury their head in the sand that playing in 2020 or not had nay real meaning? Sure -- okay.
Juts because YOU wanted to make an excuse not to take him doesn't make your lame excuse right.
Toney has one very good game and one good game. It’s not a definitive sample size.
Like I posted above, the history of the league is littered with joystick guys who never quite caught on as long term receivers. I think he’s got a bunch to learn.
In the mean time I really wish he was returning punts and kicks.
I guess I just read it differently, I don't think anyone actually thinks at this point in their career Toney is better than Beckham. He's an exciting player we want to see more of.
Personality is what caused a knife fight? Personality is shoving your junk in other players face? Guy has been quiet in the NFL for now but is a piece of garbage and it will re-surface. Slater would have been a nice pick, but guess the staff decided to pass on o-line after using 3 picks the year before, and want to see if those developed.
You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. What a terrible made up post, wow
The arrogance of some on here never ceases to amaze me
People are giving opinions, though the arrogant believe theirs is fact.
I don't know who was comparing Toney to OBJ or why he needs to be OBJ at his best to be worthy of the #20 pick in the draft.
Regardless, those who say they know Toney will never be a pro bowl player - are giving opinion as fact. As are those who say he a punk who is destined embarass the franchise.
I was among those who voiced concernes over those predraft stories and early behavior, but I think he's a good kid.
But feel free to keep brasgging that you knew Slater would be great and that Toney is a POS.
Personality is what caused a knife fight? Personality is shoving your junk in other players face? Guy has been quiet in the NFL for now but is a piece of garbage and it will re-surface. Slater would have been a nice pick, but guess the staff decided to pass on o-line after using 3 picks the year before, and want to see if those developed.
You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. What a terrible made up post, wow
is we haven't seen what happens when defenses plan for him. He didn't even have enough time to break out and have those adjustments made to his game. The Giants roster isn't so chock full of talent that we can't expect these adjustments to happen if Toney produces on an ongoing basis.
The thing about OBJ is that he beat you when you DID game plan against him. He could take a slant to the house every time. So you move a safety up to deny the slant? Oh yeah, he'll chop the top right off your defense. You give him deep help and move a LB over to deny a slant? He runs the skinny post. He covered too much ground too quickly and was actually an adept route runner too. (A reason I think he dropped in the draft was he didn't really get to show this in college because the game looked too easy for him)
Emotionally, one of the reasons I rail against the Giants traditional style is because I think just as difficult as OBJ was they managed him completely wrong. The Giants are traditional and rigid but I think TC was even the best coach for him because TC understood that you have your rules but you have to meet people in the middle too. And DG gets my ire because he literally was the worst kind of person to bring in to interact with OBJ. And I knew that the day he was hired and spoke to the personality problems.
It's really hard to watch this team. Tear down in the press players like OBJ, Collins, Snacks and Pugh who were the core of a playoff team. Cross people off like Parsons for "character" and then draft Baker or Toney. They aren't a proud franchise with certain values and beliefs they are just quite poor at properly analyzing risks and rewards and forming that into a cohesive strategy. Then they use the press to either chat up their players so we think they are doing a better job than they are or make their scouting failures look like personal problems with personalities, coaches etc. instead of what they are. They treat us fans like we are stupid but it's actually them who are stupid for thinking that these patterns aren't quite obvious at this point. But they seem content to fool 30% of the fan base. And it looks like they'd be happy even lower than that
it did not appear that opting out in 2020 had no impact on his performance as a pro.
At the time, literally no one could say for sure. It happened very rarely prior to last year.
In R Slater's case - it was pretty obvious that he was going to be a terrific OLINEMAN whether he opted out or not. Which is why he was so high on draft boards.
RE: The arrogance of some on here never ceases to amaze me
People are giving opinions, though the arrogant believe theirs is fact.
I don't know who was comparing Toney to OBJ or why he needs to be OBJ at his best to be worthy of the #20 pick in the draft.
Regardless, those who say they know Toney will never be a pro bowl player - are giving opinion as fact. As are those who say he a punk who is destined embarass the franchise.
I was among those who voiced concernes over those predraft stories and early behavior, but I think he's a good kid.
But feel free to keep brasgging that you knew Slater would be great and that Toney is a POS.
OBJ was great on the field but he could disappear when the pressure was on. He had a great burst but also could get alligator arms. I was a fan nonetheless.
Toney, we have a very small sample size. He has some skills and a tenacity that OBJ never had. He can make you miss in a phone booth. His 40 yrd dash time is .04 faster than Beckham, 4.39 vs 4.43. Beckham doesn't make that first 3rd and long catch for a first down Toney made. Not even close. When a QB actually targets Toney as Eli did with Beckham, Toney gains 189 yards. He has ELITE ability and he isn't a diva. Toney seems to be a hardnosed competitor.
All that plus a potentially Top 10 2022 draft pick loaded with OL and Edge talent?
Sign me up.
I too wanted Parson and liked Slater but it was not to be. I can live with what we did get instead.
OBJ was great on the field but he could disappear when the pressure was on. He had a great burst but also could get alligator arms. I was a fan nonetheless.
Toney, we have a very small sample size. He has some skills and a tenacity that OBJ never had. He can make you miss in a phone booth. His 40 yrd dash time is .04 faster than Beckham, 4.39 vs 4.43. Beckham doesn't make that first 3rd and long catch for a first down Toney made. Not even close. When a QB actually targets Toney as Eli did with Beckham, Toney gains 189 yards. He has ELITE ability and he isn't a diva. Toney seems to be a hardnosed competitor.
All that plus a potentially Top 10 2022 draft pick loaded with OL and Edge talent?
Sign me up.
I too wanted Parson and liked Slater but it was not to be. I can live with what we did get instead.
Just a refresher course on OBJ. He hit the ground running. Zero learning curve...
OBJ was great on the field but he could disappear when the pressure was on. He had a great burst but also could get alligator arms. I was a fan nonetheless.
Toney, we have a very small sample size. He has some skills and a tenacity that OBJ never had. He can make you miss in a phone booth. His 40 yrd dash time is .04 faster than Beckham, 4.39 vs 4.43. Beckham doesn't make that first 3rd and long catch for a first down Toney made. Not even close. When a QB actually targets Toney as Eli did with Beckham, Toney gains 189 yards. He has ELITE ability and he isn't a diva. Toney seems to be a hardnosed competitor.
All that plus a potentially Top 10 2022 draft pick loaded with OL and Edge talent?
Sign me up.
I too wanted Parson and liked Slater but it was not to be. I can live with what we did get instead.
Just a refresher course on OBJ. He hit the ground running. Zero learning curve...
That is a phenomenal three year start to his career.
I don't care how Toney looked on a few plays - and he looks like he has some unique skills - he isn't in the same class as OBJ when OBJ started.
Just look at those #s again...
Odell was great his first 3 years and was our only weapon. I remember well. As I said I am a fan. He also had a 2 time Super Bowl MVP throwing to him. They were the offense.
You cannot deny that Toney has Elite skills that Odell didn't and doesn't have. He is a baller. Let's see what he develops into. At the least, I'll bet he's a 1000 yard a season receiver and a problem for the defense.
Beckham of course saw his training camp cut short by injury. Without training camp, Odell in his first 7 games had 41 receptions, ~600 yards, 5 TDs. And in his 7th game, he made one of the great catches in history v Dallas.
or has refused help will keep him out of Canton and put him on the list of great wasted talent.
But it won't erase what he did before he broke his ankle. He was an elite top of the league on field talent for 3 seasons and only missed 1 game once he started playing. 90+ catches and double digit TDs all 3 years.
Toney so far is a novelty act being used poor in the least creative offense in the NFL with one good game under his belt. Maybe if he was in KC it would be a different story.
If we had a time machine there's definitely an argument for staying put and taking either of those guys. But I'm not going to get upset about one of the very few smart things the Giants have done in the past 4 years
I miss Tom Coughlin and I knew I would. Nice post, NGD.
I'll cop to thinking it was TCs time to go but I think that is part of what is annoying about watching this trend go on where it feels like there is a bigger concern with managing a story than performance. I think much like some other coaches who this happened to the PR team around the Giants wanted to pin everything on TC so it was fair to believe it was more his fault than it may have actually been because my antenna's weren't up for this at the time.
That all being said I still don't think I appreciated him enough for what he was. He was a hell of a leader.
He was a top player, but the amount of times he over-estimated his ability to gain YAC only to dance and lose yards was very high. I haven’t seen that lack of discretion or ability from Toney thus far.
He was a top player, but the amount of times he over-estimated his ability to gain YAC only to dance and lose yards was very high. I haven’t seen that lack of discretion or ability from Toney thus far.
The desire to trash former Giants and prop up current ones is weird and frankly disingenuous. We went to the playoffs with OBJ. He was an all-pro talent.
Toney because he didn't know the playbook well enough, wasn't ready whatever missed games. OBJ was injured and still came in and set the league on fire.
You can say he "danced around" all you want but jesus is that a nit pick.
Meanwhile you want to talk about the "better attributes" of Toney who has shown some promise but can't sniff the production of OBJ.
The downplaying of the character differences is also odd at best. OBJ did some weird stuff but for all intents and purposes was one of the hardest workers on the team. Toney can't even stay on the field. What he said about Ruggs not only makes you question his judgement, it makes you question his character. I never questioned OBJ's character just some of his decisions.
No one was more critical of Beckham on this board than I was...
Toney ain't Beckham, and he's never gonna be. Personally I don't think Toney looks like he was worth the pick. Slot receivers are easy to find; I still don't understand why they picked him.
We traded the 11th pick for the 20th pick and what looks like a top ten pick in this draft coming up plus the other picks. Its a no brainer the trade was awesome for the Giants.
Unless Slater turns into a player that you'd trade two first round picks for.
No one was more critical of Beckham on this board than I was...
Toney ain't Beckham, and he's never gonna be. Personally I don't think Toney looks like he was worth the pick. Slot receivers are easy to find; I still don't understand why they picked him.
He clearly has special movement skills. He's probably already the best WR in the league at making people miss. The way he cuts is different. I'm not ready to compare him to Odell, Odell was amazing his first few years. But he clearly looks like he has some real talent.
When he was drafted, I was thinking that he had the potential to be a slot monster with his skill-set. I think ultimately he will be at his best in the slot. But he has made some plays on the ball while playing outside that make me think he could be successful outside as well. He had like 3 great catches near the sideline in the Dallas game.
It's been a bumpy rookie season. The durability looks like a major concern considering his playstyle relies on violent cutting. There have been threads discussing his personality/mentality. But that brief flash of greatness he showed is enough to make me feel optimistic about his potential.
Slater and Parsons look good, especially Slater. But Toney's flashed enough where you still make that trade down every day of the week imo.
Yeah he can make people miss, but that's not the same as having the innate ability (or instinct, or whatever it is) to gain yards with the ball in your hands.
I'm guessing Toney is more elusive than, say, Deebo Samuel. That doesn't make him Deebo Samuel.
He's got 28 catches at 12.6 yards a pop. Why are we calling this guy a great weapon already?
At some point we're going to actually wait for guys on this team to do great things before calling them great, right? Because right now I keep hearing about how great our players are, but we actually don't have any great players.
Yeah he can make people miss, but that's not the same as having the innate ability (or instinct, or whatever it is) to gain yards with the ball in your hands.
I'm guessing Toney is more elusive than, say, Deebo Samuel. That doesn't make him Deebo Samuel.
He's got 28 catches at 12.6 yards a pop. Why are we calling this guy a great weapon already?
At some point we're going to actually wait for guys on this team to do great things before calling them great, right? Because right now I keep hearing about how great our players are, but we actually don't have any great players.
I'm not calling him "great", he has a lot to prove. I'd grade his season so far as "Incomplete - Optimistic" at this point. He's clearly not a bum which is the first hurdle a rookie needs to prove.
I think it's too early to really analyze his stats considering how inconsistent his usage has been due to durability issues. The 12.8 YPC on 28 catches doesn't really tell too much. Deebo is at 18.1 YPC this year and just killing it, but he averaged "only" 13.3 YPC on 90 receptions over his first 2 years.
I disagree with you about questioning his "innate ability to gain yards with the ball in his hands". I think there's a lot you can question about him, but he clearly has that particular skill. The reception he had against the Cowboys where he planted and started his cut before he caught the ball was special. He felt exactly where the open space was, made 3 Cowboys DBs (including Diggs) look silly and then burst his way through the middle down to the 1yd line. It's the play that stands out the most to me from this season.
He has a lot to prove. But the way he jumped off the screen in the Dallas game isn't something any random player can do.
I really don't have a problem with posters - like you - liking what they see in Toney. There are some very interesting tools in his box.
But it was just an overshoot to bring OBJ into the comp mix. OBJ exploded on the scene; and for three years was a point producing machine. Like I have said on many occasions, I was convinced I was watching a player who could challenge Jerry Rice's greatness.
Can't say I'm surprised at the comp attempt. Everyday posters are trying to convince others that Jones is Eli, 2.0. So the beat goes on...
I really don't have a problem with posters - like you - liking what they see in Toney. There are some very interesting tools in his box.
But it was just an overshoot to bring OBJ into the comp mix. OBJ exploded on the scene; and for three years was a point producing machine. Like I have said on many occasions, I was convinced I was watching a player who could challenge Jerry Rice's greatness.
Can't say I'm surprised at the comp attempt. Everyday posters are trying to convince others that Jones is Eli, 2.0. So the beat goes on...
I agree, definitely way too early for any Odell comparison to be taken seriously. Odell came onto the scene and was pretty much the consensus 3rd best WR to Julio/AB before his rookie year even ended. Some, including myself, even argued he might actually be better than those two after his 2nd season.
Toney has had one great game. We need way more of a sample size of him on the field and healthy to properly figure out how good he is.
I'm not defending the Odell comp. I just feel really good about what I saw from Toney when he was healthy. The fact that he already proved that his #1 skill as a prospect (suddenness) could translate on an NFL field, that's a big deal imo. We'll see how it plays out with him, I totally understand the question marks at this point but I'm feeling good about his potential.
Toney looks to be a good player but just not as important as a defender like Parsons.
No brainer? Parsons is a DPOY candidate. It's anything but a no brainer.
The more I watch football the more I am convinced that quality > quantity.
I'd have to think long and hard about this one, but I may say fuck all that extra crap and give me Parsons. THANK GOD we got a first next year or i'd be losing my shit if we just stood pat and took Toney or whoever.
Not to mention, if we get Parsons dallas isn't steamrolling to the #1 seed. And that fucking blows.
The one mitigating factor is the extra #1 in 2022, that could soften the blow for me. But, gun to my head I would've picked Parsons, he's a franchise talent.
Both Parsons and Slater look like All Pro players... we passed on both. Damn. Early to tell... but looks like a mistake right now.
I get you, but how do you know we aren't winning more games with Parsons? We don't win that game in Washington? We don't get ONE stop in those 2 games thanks to a bad ass front seven player like Parsons? We might be 5-5 right now with Parsons here, assuming these wing nuts here knew how to deploy him.
I was there with you all spring screaming or echoing your shouts to pick this guy.
I am not always blinded by the blue, lol...I usually speak truthful objective but I am a dreamer too...I want to believe in my teams UNTIL they shit the bed and then I accept and would make the hard decisions.
Slater is better than expected, but getting a top OL with the pick from Chicago is a reasonable expectation.
Parsons is a player, but not sure how we would have used him. Regardless, IMO Toney + Chi 1st rounder > Pasrsons
"Elite weapon" is way too premature.
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We traded the 11th pick for the 20th pick and what looks like a top ten pick in this draft coming up plus the other picks. Its a no brainer the trade was awesome for the Giants.
No brainer? Parsons is a DPOY candidate. It's anything but a no brainer.
The more I watch football the more I am convinced that quality > quantity.
I'd have to think long and hard about this one, but I may say fuck all that extra crap and give me Parsons. THANK GOD we got a first next year or i'd be losing my shit if we just stood pat and took Toney or whoever.
Not to mention, if we get Parsons dallas isn't steamrolling to the #1 seed. And that fucking blows.
Agreed on all points. Man, Parsons is a fucking animal.
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To jump from 20 to 11 to get their franchise QB.
I get you, but how do you know we aren't winning more games with Parsons? We don't win that game in Washington? We don't get ONE stop in those 2 games thanks to a bad ass front seven player like Parsons? We might be 5-5 right now with Parsons here, assuming these wing nuts here knew how to deploy him.
I like the trade. But wish we got one more high pick. At the time I wanted Slater. Parsons obviously would have been a great pick too.
Give them time, OL!
But, Parsons is legit and exactly the type or game changer NYG sorely lacks.
I think they will trade down again in the 1st if possible. Its a deep draft.
I think Toney has a chance to be really good. His value will be more apparent with a true 1 receiver and when they can run the ball more consistently. This guy exploiting the underneath stuff is deadly.
Toney plus all the picks we got from Chicago is also more valuable than Slater. But I agree that conclusion assumes we get an impact player from Chicago's #1 next yea, which is why I think this discussion is at least slightly premature.
Easy answer for me...Slater was the right pick.
I liked the trade down in theory but overall even if Toney pans out results wise he seems like another guy already that may be dangerous to pay. Not durable, potential distraction etc.
I was beating the drum for the OL for this exact reason. We had to see what Jones is. I think we have but I can see the argument for the OL being garbage (but that is very much a self inflicted wound)
Regardless what the Giants seem not to understand is something many on this site have. You build the OL and get your QB and then you fill in the skill positions which can be rather fungible if you get those other two things right.
I honestly can't even believe we are heading for another year where the claims are "you can't evaluate the QB" with the amount of resources we invested in skill positions seemingly for that purpose.
It is the Golladay and Toney thing that is really confounding and even a bit enraging. It's like they are so busy plugging one hole on the boat that there are others holes in the boat that they are ignoring.
And then they act like they know things the fans don't about the holes they are ignoring.
How anyone looks at the way we allocate assets and has any degree of confidence in these people at this point is truly a feat of blind optimism.
Truth is the trade is made with the idea of maximizing the chances of getting a Parsons type player. You hope to get 2. Or at least one and a second really good one.
Once you know you have the Parsons level, you are sort of changing the equation. At the draft, Parsons was just a prospect. Now he is showing he is more than that. So do you take the certainty of now over the maximizing chances of then? Probably. But if you nail the picks, you win the trade no matter what they did.
Easy answer for me...Slater was the right pick.
I thought it might be you who also really wanted Slater, I seem to remember that. Honestly I only remember the JonC thing more because he tends to have good info and I remember thinking well that sucks that we had zero interest in him
But I've been watching football for 45+ years and I trust my judgement on this one.
Feel free to bust my chops if he disproves that.
As a lifelong PSU fan, Parsons ability jumped off the screen. The off the field concerns were personality based. And for the Giants, God forbid they manage a great talent with a big personality...
Ironically, we drafted a player with more baggage in Toney...
Slater is better than expected, but getting a top OL with the pick from Chicago is a reasonable expectation.
Parsons is a player, but not sure how we would have used him. Regardless, IMO Toney + Chi 1st rounder > Pasrsons
toney has played meaningful snaps in like what, 3-4 games? the only one where he made a difference he had glennon throwing him the ball (189 yards). over half of his production on the season came from that one game.
they traded the fifth they got from chicago to move up and draft a player who has yet to play one game.
the other two picks (2022 1st and 4th) haven't been made yet and it's a crapshoot whether either will amount to anything, and we all know the giants recent history of horrifically botching first round draft picks (jones, baker, barkley, engram, flowers, apple, etc etc).
i'd've rather they picked parsons
If that pick is outside of the top 10, yup I’d do that.
It's got to stop or you will continuing chasing the talent and playing positional void whackamole.
Pick Parsons and figure out how to unleash him and then build the talent around him. Drafting by positional need has a lot to do with the state of the 2021 Giants, and it sucks to watch it happen.
Slater is better than expected, but getting a top OL with the pick from Chicago is a reasonable expectation.
Parsons is a player, but not sure how we would have used him. Regardless, IMO Toney + Chi 1st rounder > Pasrsons
Man Giants fan have watched too much bad football recently. Toney is not an elite weapon.
- Getting a top OL next is not a reasonable expectation. Just look at the Giants recent 1st round picks.
- Not sure how the Giants could use Parsons? Seriously?
I think Toney can become an elite WR and if the Bears can go 6-11 or so then there's another stud next year. I'm fine with the trade.
It's got to stop or you will continuing chasing the talent and playing positional void whackamole.
Pick Parsons and figure out how to unleash him and then build the talent around him. Drafting by positional need has a lot to do with the state of the 2021 Giants, and it sucks to watch it happen.
This is absolutely the truth. Go and look at the current GBN thread and all the talk is about drafting OT and EDGE.
Draft players, not positions.
And other trades that give us bites at more OL apple, or wherever they see fit.
Bears may have a franchise QB, but the team needed to try to better itself with talented youth.
I’m OK with the trade.
The scouts and analytics better be ‘on’.
We aren’t even using Golladay as intended. Safe to say our OL and Jones are dictating what the WRs can and can’t do.
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has fallen into the draft trap of see hole, plug hole and totally get stuck filling holes on paper because they're chasing positions, while leaving better talent on the board.
It's got to stop or you will continuing chasing the talent and playing positional void whackamole.
Pick Parsons and figure out how to unleash him and then build the talent around him. Drafting by positional need has a lot to do with the state of the 2021 Giants, and it sucks to watch it happen.
This is absolutely the truth. Go and look at the current GBN thread and all the talk is about drafting OT and EDGE.
Draft players, not positions.
amazing how the constant harping about not getting the line corrected is ignored when convenient. Would Parson have been help, probably. Would Slater have helped - absolutely. Does Toney and a second #1 help - remains to be seen. Toney looks real. Having 2 #1s in 2022 should help more with the right GM calling the shots.
The point is to acquire talent, not accumulate picks. I feel like a lot of folks here fall into the draft simulator mindset.
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but it's way premature to label him an elite weapon. He's got to be able to run some actual vertical routes or DCs are going to start locking him down. He's also a non-elite brain with some judgement caps to fix.
We aren’t even using Golladay as intended. Safe to say our OL and Jones are dictating what the WRs can and can’t do.
Garrett gets paid to find a way. They don't have to win the games, they can still be a losing team, but they must show something more competent than current product which is cellar dweller quality. Can't just sit around and point fingers and wish it away. If that's the case start cleaning house.
The point is to acquire talent, not accumulate picks. I feel like a lot of folks here fall into the draft simulator mindset.
That's a very good point. Having more and more picks doesn't mean success (sure, the more attempts might lead to the blind squirrel finding a nut outcome...).
What matters, and let me makes sure my Captain Obvious hat is on securely, it hitting on the picks.
Look at the Rams. They constantly trade picks and end-up with fewer and fewer picks per draft. But what Snead/McVey do well is hit on their limited picks.
Parson > Toney + 2021 Bears 1st rounder?
Lets say that 2021 Bears 1st rounder allows the Giants to get a stud ER or stud OL player, then the combination of Toney and the extra 1st rounder makes it a good trade.
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The point is to acquire talent, not accumulate picks. I feel like a lot of folks here fall into the draft simulator mindset.
That's a very good point. Having more and more picks doesn't mean success (sure, the more attempts might lead to the blind squirrel finding a nut outcome...).
What matters, and let me makes sure my Captain Obvious hat is on securely, it hitting on the picks.
Look at the Rams. They constantly trade picks and end-up with fewer and fewer picks per draft. But what Snead/McVey do well is hit on their limited picks.
They also now have a smaller window in which to win and if they do not get at least one SB win, there will be hell to pay with a limited way out.
Not sure how to look at the Rams. Good, yes. Great, maybe. Sure fire NFC Champ, could be?
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In comment 15455629 JonC said:
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but it's way premature to label him an elite weapon. He's got to be able to run some actual vertical routes or DCs are going to start locking him down. He's also a non-elite brain with some judgement caps to fix.
We aren’t even using Golladay as intended. Safe to say our OL and Jones are dictating what the WRs can and can’t do.
Garrett gets paid to find a way. They don't have to win the games, they can still be a losing team, but they must show something more competent than current product which is cellar dweller quality. Can't just sit around and point fingers and wish it away. If that's the case start cleaning house.
great point JonC. Hit the nail on the head.
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In comment 15455770 JonC said:
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has fallen into the draft trap of see hole, plug hole and totally get stuck filling holes on paper because they're chasing positions, while leaving better talent on the board.
It's got to stop or you will continuing chasing the talent and playing positional void whackamole.
Pick Parsons and figure out how to unleash him and then build the talent around him. Drafting by positional need has a lot to do with the state of the 2021 Giants, and it sucks to watch it happen.
This is absolutely the truth. Go and look at the current GBN thread and all the talk is about drafting OT and EDGE.
Draft players, not positions.
amazing how the constant harping about not getting the line corrected is ignored when convenient. Would Parson have been help, probably. Would Slater have helped - absolutely. Does Toney and a second #1 help - remains to be seen. Toney looks real. Having 2 #1s in 2022 should help more with the right GM calling the shots.
Section125 actually with the correct sentiment as to the OL.
All season long when the bad OL product is on the field, everybody criticizes the GM and says the Giants absolutely have to prioritize Offensive Line in the next draft.
And then when Spring rolls around the majority of those fans see all the cool, shiny toys in the Draft window and pocket their feelings about the OL. At least until the season starts and they see the bad product continue and then they blame the GM again.
Rinse...repeat.
He has made good decisions when trusted with the pass options.
He has found a way to get extra yac
I like he chances of learning the full route tree and becoming even more of a threat.
Besides the obvious ability, I see a tough competitor, not a diva. The kids a football player. Drool over Parsons all you want , but I like our kid
He could however turn into a versatile playmaker for Giants if we ever get an OL that can support an Offense.
And then again, can you honestly say you would be surprised if something down the road happened and he was out of football in less than a few years?
I sincerely hope not, but not surprised...
And Parsons isn't? Given the flags on him, he could be a non-factor any time and wind up playing for the California Penal League.
It's been terribly put together, and the OL players themselves haven't been helped by Garrett (scheme) or Jones and Barkley (execution).
This is the nuts and bolts of why the Giants are a bad team. It's not just one or two mistakes. The policies that are in place are deeply flawed and really in a deeply flawed product.
Those areas need a complete rebuild.
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He's also a non-elite brain with some judgement caps to fix.
And Parsons isn't? Given the flags on him, he could be a non-factor any time and wind up playing for the California Penal League.
Do you have a list of flags? I don't recall reading any, just what I'd heard behind the scenes.
They have to keep investing in it until they get it right, or find different people to making the investing decisions...
Recall seeing him a few times now letting his emotions get the best of him. Occurred late in the WFT game and he got a good lecture from Judge and stormed off to the bench. Then of course he threw a punch and got ejected from the Dallas game a few weeks later.
Keep in mind that he hasn't exactly played that many games/snaps yet. Maybe he is frustrated with his role, or the injuries or maybe it's just who he is going to be in the heat of battle. Good luck with that..
I still like what I see as a football player. I expect his and parsons careers to be similar. Time will tell
Slater is another player that shows promise but again I heard we had no interest.
Could the info on both players have been wrong absolutely.
Toney didnt practice all offseason but he flashes. Maybe he is nothing more than a gimmick guy. Who knows yet. I think he has to be evaluated more.
Based on the info at the time, I think it was a great trade.
Based on the info we have now, I think you could have gone either route and been successful. All 3 seem to be players with strong careers ahead. I think Toney and the top 10 pick is still the way to go. I dont know what the draft will be like yet but I think Toney will be a good player and we still have the potential to get a great one.
I do think we have to get back to drafting the best available regardless of position like others have said. Injuries take a strong position and make it weak in a heartbeat. Getting players other teams have to gameplan around is important. Right now we have very few players in that category so when you have a chance to get one you have to take it. I personally dont think either Parsons or Slater was considered cant miss at the time.
Sy had Slater pegged as at 85 and at Guard
Sy had Parsons at 84
Sy had Toney at 77 but also mentioned some teams had him in top 5
I wish it were that simple but you know it isn't. Toney has had a couple big games. The picks are a completely unknown commodity and there is no guarantee the organization will hit on them. Meanwhile Parsons is the presumptive defensive rookie of the year and has been the exact type of player this defense sorely needs.
Ultimately the jury is still out and talking with any kind of certainty is kind of foolish.
Besides, the comparison is Toney plus whomever the Giants get next year with that extra pick versus Parson and/or Slater.
These conversations may be fine for just spit-ballin' 9 games in, but they really aren't all that interesting yet...
As far as Tooney, it’s way too soon to tell if he’s going to be a great player. But even if he is, there’s lot of receivers available in the every draft and quality play makers get drafted at WR out of the top 20 every year.
Having said all this, I’m not killing Getty for the trade. It’s defensible and may still wind up being a positive. But, then again, Getty is such a lousy GM he’s graded on a curve here.
I take this a direct reaction to Judge saying Jones needed better weapons and better coaching. Doesn’t seem like Judge made much movement on the latter, but Gettleman did on the former.
I like Toney, but he’s a joystick guy right now. I’d rather the “weapon” reps go to Barkley. I agree with Jon, he’s got to be a complete receiver. There’s a graveyard of joystick guys who never became WRs. TBD on Toney.
No one’s ever regretted bookend tackles or a 3-down linebacker. Higher floors.
No one’s ever regretted bookend tackles or a 3-down linebacker. Higher floors.
I think you and I have explored this before, but the odds are very favorable investing in OL in the first round. A pretty good hit rate.
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No one’s ever regretted bookend tackles or a 3-down linebacker. Higher floors.
I think you and I have explored this before, but the odds are very favorable investing in OL in the first round. A pretty good hit rate.
In terms of at least being a competent starter, yes, but when you are wrong it is really wrong
The whole sequence of events is maddening. The fan base and media raising enough noise about the continued poor results trying to put the right offensive line and depth together that it merits a response then the guy basically mocking the idea as if this team that has not at all recently shown they are smarter than anyone still thinks they are smarter than everyone.
(May 2021) “It’s really apparent that we have a little more confidence in our offensive linemen than you guys do. So I’m just going to say we’re happy with the group that we have."
Dave Gettleman’s failed promises - ( New Window )
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No one’s ever regretted bookend tackles or a 3-down linebacker. Higher floors.
I think you and I have explored this before, but the odds are very favorable investing in OL in the first round. A pretty good hit rate.
Even if the tackle can’t cut it — you have a guard.
Want to really make some heads explode here? The last two 1st round tackles Reese drafted are two of the better blocking guards in the NFL. Today.
Even if the tackle can’t cut it — you have a guard.
Want to really make some heads explode here? The last two 1st round tackles Reese drafted are two of the better blocking guards in the NFL. Today.
You really can't make it up...can you?
But that's an excellent point about OLT. You can always move them inside, or to the other T side.
The extra first rounder which could be really high plus the late round pick is definitely worth taking Toney over those guys IMO.
I liked the trade down in theory but overall even if Toney pans out results wise he seems like another guy already that may be dangerous to pay. Not durable, potential distraction etc.
I was beating the drum for the OL for this exact reason. We had to see what Jones is. I think we have but I can see the argument for the OL being garbage (but that is very much a self inflicted wound)
Regardless what the Giants seem not to understand is something many on this site have. You build the OL and get your QB and then you fill in the skill positions which can be rather fungible if you get those other two things right.
I honestly can't even believe we are heading for another year where the claims are "you can't evaluate the QB" with the amount of resources we invested in skill positions seemingly for that purpose.
It is the Golladay and Toney thing that is really confounding and even a bit enraging. It's like they are so busy plugging one hole on the boat that there are others holes in the boat that they are ignoring.
And then they act like they know things the fans don't about the holes they are ignoring.
How anyone looks at the way we allocate assets and has any degree of confidence in these people at this point is truly a feat of blind optimism.
+10000000000000000000000000000000000000000
If we were going to pick at that spot and not trade down, I wanted Slater. Argued a ton with many on here that either wanted Paye or wanted a WR. There was very little discussion on Parsons because he had off-field issues and Giants don't tend to go with that.
The OL to me was and is the most critical.
With that said, I do love the 2022 shot of if they love a QB.
GreatDayne nails it with DG's arrogance yet someone that has been so awful.
The whole sequence of events is maddening. The fan base and media raising enough noise about the continued poor results trying to put the right offensive line and depth together that it merits a response then the guy basically mocking the idea as if this team that has not at all recently shown they are smarter than anyone still thinks they are smarter than everyone.
(May 2021) “It’s really apparent that we have a little more confidence in our offensive linemen than you guys do. So I’m just going to say we’re happy with the group that we have."
Dave Gettleman’s failed promises - ( New Window )
This has just been a microcosm of the asshole he's been since he came aboard.
Slater is another player that shows promise but again I heard we had no interest.
Could the info on both players have been wrong absolutely.
Toney didnt practice all offseason but he flashes. Maybe he is nothing more than a gimmick guy. Who knows yet. I think he has to be evaluated more.
Based on the info at the time, I think it was a great trade.
Based on the info we have now, I think you could have gone either route and been successful. All 3 seem to be players with strong careers ahead. I think Toney and the top 10 pick is still the way to go. I dont know what the draft will be like yet but I think Toney will be a good player and we still have the potential to get a great one.
I do think we have to get back to drafting the best available regardless of position like others have said. Injuries take a strong position and make it weak in a heartbeat. Getting players other teams have to gameplan around is important. Right now we have very few players in that category so when you have a chance to get one you have to take it. I personally dont think either Parsons or Slater was considered cant miss at the time.
Sy had Slater pegged as at 85 and at Guard
Sy had Parsons at 84
Sy had Toney at 77 but also mentioned some teams had him in top 5
Depends on your definition of "can't miss" but I thought both were considered can't miss to a degree which is why they were in the discussions of being drafted early.
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Even if the tackle can’t cut it — you have a guard.
Want to really make some heads explode here? The last two 1st round tackles Reese drafted are two of the better blocking guards in the NFL. Today.
You really can't make it up...can you?
But that's an excellent point about OLT. You can always move them inside, or to the other T side.
True... but then you used a top pick for a guard. Not sure why we simply cannot draft tackles. Hopefully Thomas changes that for us.
Meanwhile, this is why I prefer to get my tackles via free agency. You can still fuck that up (Solder), but you at least have a chance to have someone else teach him the position and watch him play the position in the NFL first.
I think picking Toney after the trade down is a mistake and believe we need to trade him this spring. All the warning lights about character and judgement issues are flashing red.
Haven’t we learned from Beckham? The good news is that we can probably recoup a high draft pick from Toney.
I think picking Toney after the trade down is a mistake and believe we need to trade him this spring. All the warning lights about character and judgement issues are flashing red.
Haven’t we learned from Beckham? The good news is that we can probably recoup a high draft pick from Toney.
Huh? So Toney has warning lights about some kind of issues and yet the Giants can trade him for a high draft pick?
BTW, what are the character issues? The tweet about Ruggs?
Meanwhile he has 28 receptions midway through his rookie season, his longest reception is 38 yards and he is still looking to score his first TD. An intriguing talent but give me a break about how he is some franchise talent. Beckham blew the doors off Toney in terms of jump off the screen talent and look how that turned out. And Beckham’s red flags were minimal compared to Toney’s at this stage of his career.
Wake up.
Meanwhile he has 28 receptions midway through his rookie season, his longest reception is 38 yards and he is still looking to score his first TD. An intriguing talent but give me a break about how he is some franchise talent. Beckham blew the doors off Toney in terms of jump off the screen talent and look how that turned out. And Beckham’s red flags were minimal compared to Toney’s at this stage of his career.
Wake up.
Gun incident, had a legal gun on the backseat of the car and got a warning. Not much of an incident. 2nd Amendment
I've been waiting football for a long time.
In his first few seasons in the NFL, OBJ was the best WR I had seen since Rice. He was a threat to score every time he touched the ball. His quickness, burst, and acceleration were elite. And he caught everything.
Toney has skills, but not like that...
Meanwhile he has 28 receptions midway through his rookie season, his longest reception is 38 yards and he is still looking to score his first TD. An intriguing talent but give me a break about how he is some franchise talent. Beckham blew the doors off Toney in terms of jump off the screen talent and look how that turned out. And Beckham’s red flags were minimal compared to Toney’s at this stage of his career.
Wake up.
Red flag on a couple injuries. Brilliance. Training camp was COVID into a hammy. Happens to fast twitch players, then getting his ankle rolled. Red Flags. I guess half the NFL has red flags then.
All your other red flags are minimal and stretches, like you are searching for a reason. The PF.
Dumb things from a 22 year old - shocking.
There was less known about EVERY NFL prospect this year than ANY other year prior. Between the lack of combine participation, the zoom interviews, the abbreviated NCAA schedules, shoot...the Giants drafted a player that didn't play in a single game last year b/c his college team didn't play!
The draft is always a crap shoot - but there's strategy in craps, last year was like playing craps without knowing the rules (something I've done before..and if you're looking to lose money in a hurry - it's a great way to play).
Trading picks last year to get more picks this year might have been the smartest thing the NYG front office has done the past 10 years.
So smart - I doubt it came from DG.
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In comment 15456005 christian said:
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Even if the tackle can’t cut it — you have a guard.
Want to really make some heads explode here? The last two 1st round tackles Reese drafted are two of the better blocking guards in the NFL. Today.
You really can't make it up...can you?
But that's an excellent point about OLT. You can always move them inside, or to the other T side.
True... but then you used a top pick for a guard. Not sure why we simply cannot draft tackles. Hopefully Thomas changes that for us.
Meanwhile, this is why I prefer to get my tackles via free agency. You can still fuck that up (Solder), but you at least have a chance to have someone else teach him the position and watch him play the position in the NFL first.
I am completely the opposite on this thinking. Players at premium positions like Offensive Tackle should be acquired via the draft as long as you don't predict it will take years before he is "taught" how to play it.
An high priced OT can be obtained via Free Agency but your "window" of potentially winning better be very clear...
You've gone full tilt. Fans are excited by Toney, doesn't mean they are disconnected from reality. No real point in going to such an extreme, this isn't like you.
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The gun incident, Sy’s back channel warning, the personal foul, the training camp non participation and then the tweet. It wasn’t the tweet per se, although that was dumb. It’s that it showed Toney was hazy about the difference between young men doing stupid things and criminal activity that leads to death. He apparently doesn’t grok the fundamental difference between the two. Which means he is a fairly sizable risk to shame the franchise the next time he is in a stupid situation that requires adult decisionmaking.
Meanwhile he has 28 receptions midway through his rookie season, his longest reception is 38 yards and he is still looking to score his first TD. An intriguing talent but give me a break about how he is some franchise talent. Beckham blew the doors off Toney in terms of jump off the screen talent and look how that turned out. And Beckham’s red flags were minimal compared to Toney’s at this stage of his career.
Wake up.
Red flag on a couple injuries. Brilliance. Training camp was COVID into a hammy. Happens to fast twitch players, then getting his ankle rolled. Red Flags. I guess half the NFL has red flags then.
All your other red flags are minimal and stretches, like you are searching for a reason. The PF.
Dumb things from a 22 year old - shocking.
I would have thought you were older than 22...
You really believe that is what is going on here?
Nobody likes to hear it's them, but the clear lack of objectivity on this board with regard to all things-Giants is what makes for tough threads...
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shows how desperate Giants fans are for any degree of success. Starved, depleted, and completely disconnected from reality are some, lol.
You've gone full tilt. Fans are excited by Toney, doesn't mean they are disconnected from reality. No real point in going to such an extreme, this isn't like you.
It is strange. Something must have happened.
Anyway, as to the trade I'm still in a wait and see. At minimum the trade down has given me something else to be interested in this season even though I have no real issues with Chicago.
People here were good with drafting Slater #6 overall after he played ZERO games in 2020 ...
YET...
You need more games to figure out whether DJ should continue to function as the undisputed #1 QB moving forward.
People here were good with drafting Slater #6 overall after he played ZERO games in 2020 ...
YET...
You need more games to figure out whether DJ should continue to function as the undisputed #1 QB moving forward.
The logic form some of you is mind-boggling. SO it's clear as day most of us figured it didn't make one bit of a difference that he didn't play in 2020. It's a proven fact that it hasn't.
And YET
posters continue to bury their head in the sand that playing in 2020 or not had nay real meaning? Sure -- okay.
Juts because YOU wanted to make an excuse not to take him doesn't make your lame excuse right.
UConn, for a poster to claim Toney's got skills OB never had is a disconnected embellishment. Write it a different way if you'd like, I'm not wrong.
Like I posted above, the history of the league is littered with joystick guys who never quite caught on as long term receivers. I think he’s got a bunch to learn.
In the mean time I really wish he was returning punts and kicks.
I see myself doing this too. I've fallen into the trap of hyping guys who turn out to be average, lol.
It's been a long decade of Giants football.
At the time, literally no one could say for sure. It happened very rarely prior to last year.
You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. What a terrible made up post, wow
I don't know who was comparing Toney to OBJ or why he needs to be OBJ at his best to be worthy of the #20 pick in the draft.
Regardless, those who say they know Toney will never be a pro bowl player - are giving opinion as fact. As are those who say he a punk who is destined embarass the franchise.
I was among those who voiced concernes over those predraft stories and early behavior, but I think he's a good kid.
But feel free to keep brasgging that you knew Slater would be great and that Toney is a POS.
It's okay, we need someone to reignite the fire.
Story of my life :)
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Personality is what caused a knife fight? Personality is shoving your junk in other players face? Guy has been quiet in the NFL for now but is a piece of garbage and it will re-surface. Slater would have been a nice pick, but guess the staff decided to pass on o-line after using 3 picks the year before, and want to see if those developed.
You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. What a terrible made up post, wow
Do some research plenty of articles about it.
Link - ( New Window )
The thing about OBJ is that he beat you when you DID game plan against him. He could take a slant to the house every time. So you move a safety up to deny the slant? Oh yeah, he'll chop the top right off your defense. You give him deep help and move a LB over to deny a slant? He runs the skinny post. He covered too much ground too quickly and was actually an adept route runner too. (A reason I think he dropped in the draft was he didn't really get to show this in college because the game looked too easy for him)
Emotionally, one of the reasons I rail against the Giants traditional style is because I think just as difficult as OBJ was they managed him completely wrong. The Giants are traditional and rigid but I think TC was even the best coach for him because TC understood that you have your rules but you have to meet people in the middle too. And DG gets my ire because he literally was the worst kind of person to bring in to interact with OBJ. And I knew that the day he was hired and spoke to the personality problems.
It's really hard to watch this team. Tear down in the press players like OBJ, Collins, Snacks and Pugh who were the core of a playoff team. Cross people off like Parsons for "character" and then draft Baker or Toney. They aren't a proud franchise with certain values and beliefs they are just quite poor at properly analyzing risks and rewards and forming that into a cohesive strategy. Then they use the press to either chat up their players so we think they are doing a better job than they are or make their scouting failures look like personal problems with personalities, coaches etc. instead of what they are. They treat us fans like we are stupid but it's actually them who are stupid for thinking that these patterns aren't quite obvious at this point. But they seem content to fool 30% of the fan base. And it looks like they'd be happy even lower than that
At the time, literally no one could say for sure. It happened very rarely prior to last year.
In R Slater's case - it was pretty obvious that he was going to be a terrific OLINEMAN whether he opted out or not. Which is why he was so high on draft boards.
I don't know who was comparing Toney to OBJ or why he needs to be OBJ at his best to be worthy of the #20 pick in the draft.
Regardless, those who say they know Toney will never be a pro bowl player - are giving opinion as fact. As are those who say he a punk who is destined embarass the franchise.
I was among those who voiced concernes over those predraft stories and early behavior, but I think he's a good kid.
But feel free to keep brasgging that you knew Slater would be great and that Toney is a POS.
Was anyone saying Toney is a POS?
Toney, we have a very small sample size. He has some skills and a tenacity that OBJ never had. He can make you miss in a phone booth. His 40 yrd dash time is .04 faster than Beckham, 4.39 vs 4.43. Beckham doesn't make that first 3rd and long catch for a first down Toney made. Not even close. When a QB actually targets Toney as Eli did with Beckham, Toney gains 189 yards. He has ELITE ability and he isn't a diva. Toney seems to be a hardnosed competitor.
All that plus a potentially Top 10 2022 draft pick loaded with OL and Edge talent?
Sign me up.
I too wanted Parson and liked Slater but it was not to be. I can live with what we did get instead.
Toney, we have a very small sample size. He has some skills and a tenacity that OBJ never had. He can make you miss in a phone booth. His 40 yrd dash time is .04 faster than Beckham, 4.39 vs 4.43. Beckham doesn't make that first 3rd and long catch for a first down Toney made. Not even close. When a QB actually targets Toney as Eli did with Beckham, Toney gains 189 yards. He has ELITE ability and he isn't a diva. Toney seems to be a hardnosed competitor.
All that plus a potentially Top 10 2022 draft pick loaded with OL and Edge talent?
Sign me up.
I too wanted Parson and liked Slater but it was not to be. I can live with what we did get instead.
Just a refresher course on OBJ. He hit the ground running. Zero learning curve...
2014: 91 catches/1300+ yards/12 TDs
2015: 96 catches/1450/13 TDs
2016: 101 catches/1360+/10 TDs
That is a phenomenal three year start to his career.
I don't care how Toney looked on a few plays - and he looks like he has some unique skills - he isn't in the same class as OBJ when OBJ started.
Just look at those #s again...
He's a rookie so I'm willing to give him some time, but already labeling him as some unique weapon...no.
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OBJ was great on the field but he could disappear when the pressure was on. He had a great burst but also could get alligator arms. I was a fan nonetheless.
Toney, we have a very small sample size. He has some skills and a tenacity that OBJ never had. He can make you miss in a phone booth. His 40 yrd dash time is .04 faster than Beckham, 4.39 vs 4.43. Beckham doesn't make that first 3rd and long catch for a first down Toney made. Not even close. When a QB actually targets Toney as Eli did with Beckham, Toney gains 189 yards. He has ELITE ability and he isn't a diva. Toney seems to be a hardnosed competitor.
All that plus a potentially Top 10 2022 draft pick loaded with OL and Edge talent?
Sign me up.
I too wanted Parson and liked Slater but it was not to be. I can live with what we did get instead.
Just a refresher course on OBJ. He hit the ground running. Zero learning curve...
2014: 91 catches/1300+ yards/12 TDs
2015: 96 catches/1450/13 TDs
2016: 101 catches/1360+/10 TDs
That is a phenomenal three year start to his career.
I don't care how Toney looked on a few plays - and he looks like he has some unique skills - he isn't in the same class as OBJ when OBJ started.
Just look at those #s again...
Odell was great his first 3 years and was our only weapon. I remember well. As I said I am a fan. He also had a 2 time Super Bowl MVP throwing to him. They were the offense.
You cannot deny that Toney has Elite skills that Odell didn't and doesn't have. He is a baller. Let's see what he develops into. At the least, I'll bet he's a 1000 yard a season receiver and a problem for the defense.
No question that at this point in their careers OBJ had proven to be the much more productive player.
It is also fair to say - they are much different players.
OBJ is more a true speed WR
Toney is more elusive (and IMO a tough runner, stronger)
And time will tell, but whatever issues come up with Toney - I expect they will not be diva issues. The kids a baller.
Beckham of course saw his training camp cut short by injury. Without training camp, Odell in his first 7 games had 41 receptions, ~600 yards, 5 TDs. And in his 7th game, he made one of the great catches in history v Dallas.
There is really no comparison between the two.
But it won't erase what he did before he broke his ankle. He was an elite top of the league on field talent for 3 seasons and only missed 1 game once he started playing. 90+ catches and double digit TDs all 3 years.
Toney so far is a novelty act being used poor in the least creative offense in the NFL with one good game under his belt. Maybe if he was in KC it would be a different story.
#20, #164 [5th]
plus next year's 1st and 4th round pick
Are you kidding me? that's a slam dunk!
I'll cop to thinking it was TCs time to go but I think that is part of what is annoying about watching this trend go on where it feels like there is a bigger concern with managing a story than performance. I think much like some other coaches who this happened to the PR team around the Giants wanted to pin everything on TC so it was fair to believe it was more his fault than it may have actually been because my antenna's weren't up for this at the time.
That all being said I still don't think I appreciated him enough for what he was. He was a hell of a leader.
The desire to trash former Giants and prop up current ones is weird and frankly disingenuous. We went to the playoffs with OBJ. He was an all-pro talent.
Toney because he didn't know the playbook well enough, wasn't ready whatever missed games. OBJ was injured and still came in and set the league on fire.
You can say he "danced around" all you want but jesus is that a nit pick.
Meanwhile you want to talk about the "better attributes" of Toney who has shown some promise but can't sniff the production of OBJ.
The downplaying of the character differences is also odd at best. OBJ did some weird stuff but for all intents and purposes was one of the hardest workers on the team. Toney can't even stay on the field. What he said about Ruggs not only makes you question his judgement, it makes you question his character. I never questioned OBJ's character just some of his decisions.
Toney ain't Beckham, and he's never gonna be. Personally I don't think Toney looks like he was worth the pick. Slot receivers are easy to find; I still don't understand why they picked him.
Unless Slater turns into a player that you'd trade two first round picks for.
That's kind of the discussion, no?
Toney ain't Beckham, and he's never gonna be. Personally I don't think Toney looks like he was worth the pick. Slot receivers are easy to find; I still don't understand why they picked him.
He clearly has special movement skills. He's probably already the best WR in the league at making people miss. The way he cuts is different. I'm not ready to compare him to Odell, Odell was amazing his first few years. But he clearly looks like he has some real talent.
When he was drafted, I was thinking that he had the potential to be a slot monster with his skill-set. I think ultimately he will be at his best in the slot. But he has made some plays on the ball while playing outside that make me think he could be successful outside as well. He had like 3 great catches near the sideline in the Dallas game.
It's been a bumpy rookie season. The durability looks like a major concern considering his playstyle relies on violent cutting. There have been threads discussing his personality/mentality. But that brief flash of greatness he showed is enough to make me feel optimistic about his potential.
Slater and Parsons look good, especially Slater. But Toney's flashed enough where you still make that trade down every day of the week imo.
I'm guessing Toney is more elusive than, say, Deebo Samuel. That doesn't make him Deebo Samuel.
He's got 28 catches at 12.6 yards a pop. Why are we calling this guy a great weapon already?
At some point we're going to actually wait for guys on this team to do great things before calling them great, right? Because right now I keep hearing about how great our players are, but we actually don't have any great players.
I'm guessing Toney is more elusive than, say, Deebo Samuel. That doesn't make him Deebo Samuel.
He's got 28 catches at 12.6 yards a pop. Why are we calling this guy a great weapon already?
At some point we're going to actually wait for guys on this team to do great things before calling them great, right? Because right now I keep hearing about how great our players are, but we actually don't have any great players.
I'm not calling him "great", he has a lot to prove. I'd grade his season so far as "Incomplete - Optimistic" at this point. He's clearly not a bum which is the first hurdle a rookie needs to prove.
I think it's too early to really analyze his stats considering how inconsistent his usage has been due to durability issues. The 12.8 YPC on 28 catches doesn't really tell too much. Deebo is at 18.1 YPC this year and just killing it, but he averaged "only" 13.3 YPC on 90 receptions over his first 2 years.
I disagree with you about questioning his "innate ability to gain yards with the ball in his hands". I think there's a lot you can question about him, but he clearly has that particular skill. The reception he had against the Cowboys where he planted and started his cut before he caught the ball was special. He felt exactly where the open space was, made 3 Cowboys DBs (including Diggs) look silly and then burst his way through the middle down to the 1yd line. It's the play that stands out the most to me from this season.
He has a lot to prove. But the way he jumped off the screen in the Dallas game isn't something any random player can do.
But it was just an overshoot to bring OBJ into the comp mix. OBJ exploded on the scene; and for three years was a point producing machine. Like I have said on many occasions, I was convinced I was watching a player who could challenge Jerry Rice's greatness.
Can't say I'm surprised at the comp attempt. Everyday posters are trying to convince others that Jones is Eli, 2.0. So the beat goes on...
But it was just an overshoot to bring OBJ into the comp mix. OBJ exploded on the scene; and for three years was a point producing machine. Like I have said on many occasions, I was convinced I was watching a player who could challenge Jerry Rice's greatness.
Can't say I'm surprised at the comp attempt. Everyday posters are trying to convince others that Jones is Eli, 2.0. So the beat goes on...
I agree, definitely way too early for any Odell comparison to be taken seriously. Odell came onto the scene and was pretty much the consensus 3rd best WR to Julio/AB before his rookie year even ended. Some, including myself, even argued he might actually be better than those two after his 2nd season.
Toney has had one great game. We need way more of a sample size of him on the field and healthy to properly figure out how good he is.
I'm not defending the Odell comp. I just feel really good about what I saw from Toney when he was healthy. The fact that he already proved that his #1 skill as a prospect (suddenness) could translate on an NFL field, that's a big deal imo. We'll see how it plays out with him, I totally understand the question marks at this point but I'm feeling good about his potential.
And let’s not forget that long third down that he something made
The kid has “it”
I think it’s very obvious but I guess it isn’t to all