Knowing what you know now, would you stay put, get the bears 2022 first and fourth round picks, draft Toney and use the bears 2021 5th rounder to move up for Aaron Robinson? Or would you mix the whole thing and get Slater or Parsons?
The gun incident, Sy’s back channel warning, the personal foul, the training camp non participation and then the tweet. It wasn’t the tweet per se, although that was dumb. It’s that it showed Toney was hazy about the difference between young men doing stupid things and criminal activity that leads to death. He apparently doesn’t grok the fundamental difference between the two. Which means he is a fairly sizable risk to shame the franchise the next time he is in a stupid situation that requires adult decisionmaking.
Meanwhile he has 28 receptions midway through his rookie season, his longest reception is 38 yards and he is still looking to score his first TD. An intriguing talent but give me a break about how he is some franchise talent. Beckham blew the doors off Toney in terms of jump off the screen talent and look how that turned out. And Beckham’s red flags were minimal compared to Toney’s at this stage of his career.
Wake up.
Gun incident, had a legal gun on the backseat of the car and got a warning. Not much of an incident. 2nd Amendment
RE: Toney has more ability with the ball in his hands
In his first few seasons in the NFL, OBJ was the best WR I had seen since Rice. He was a threat to score every time he touched the ball. His quickness, burst, and acceleration were elite. And he caught everything.
The gun incident, Sy’s back channel warning, the personal foul, the training camp non participation and then the tweet. It wasn’t the tweet per se, although that was dumb. It’s that it showed Toney was hazy about the difference between young men doing stupid things and criminal activity that leads to death. He apparently doesn’t grok the fundamental difference between the two. Which means he is a fairly sizable risk to shame the franchise the next time he is in a stupid situation that requires adult decisionmaking.
Meanwhile he has 28 receptions midway through his rookie season, his longest reception is 38 yards and he is still looking to score his first TD. An intriguing talent but give me a break about how he is some franchise talent. Beckham blew the doors off Toney in terms of jump off the screen talent and look how that turned out. And Beckham’s red flags were minimal compared to Toney’s at this stage of his career.
Wake up.
Red flag on a couple injuries. Brilliance. Training camp was COVID into a hammy. Happens to fast twitch players, then getting his ankle rolled. Red Flags. I guess half the NFL has red flags then.
All your other red flags are minimal and stretches, like you are searching for a reason. The PF.
you have individuals that are eager to bend over backwards to praise players from opposing teams in order to discredit players from a team they claim to support.
There was less known about EVERY NFL prospect this year than ANY other year prior. Between the lack of combine participation, the zoom interviews, the abbreviated NCAA schedules, shoot...the Giants drafted a player that didn't play in a single game last year b/c his college team didn't play!
The draft is always a crap shoot - but there's strategy in craps, last year was like playing craps without knowing the rules (something I've done before..and if you're looking to lose money in a hurry - it's a great way to play).
Trading picks last year to get more picks this year might have been the smartest thing the NYG front office has done the past 10 years.
Even if the tackle can’t cut it — you have a guard.
Want to really make some heads explode here? The last two 1st round tackles Reese drafted are two of the better blocking guards in the NFL. Today.
You really can't make it up...can you?
But that's an excellent point about OLT. You can always move them inside, or to the other T side.
True... but then you used a top pick for a guard. Not sure why we simply cannot draft tackles. Hopefully Thomas changes that for us.
Meanwhile, this is why I prefer to get my tackles via free agency. You can still fuck that up (Solder), but you at least have a chance to have someone else teach him the position and watch him play the position in the NFL first.
I am completely the opposite on this thinking. Players at premium positions like Offensive Tackle should be acquired via the draft as long as you don't predict it will take years before he is "taught" how to play it.
An high priced OT can be obtained via Free Agency but your "window" of potentially winning better be very clear...
shows how desperate Giants fans are for any degree of success. Starved, depleted, and completely disconnected from reality are some, lol.
You've gone full tilt. Fans are excited by Toney, doesn't mean they are disconnected from reality. No real point in going to such an extreme, this isn't like you.
The gun incident, Sy’s back channel warning, the personal foul, the training camp non participation and then the tweet. It wasn’t the tweet per se, although that was dumb. It’s that it showed Toney was hazy about the difference between young men doing stupid things and criminal activity that leads to death. He apparently doesn’t grok the fundamental difference between the two. Which means he is a fairly sizable risk to shame the franchise the next time he is in a stupid situation that requires adult decisionmaking.
Meanwhile he has 28 receptions midway through his rookie season, his longest reception is 38 yards and he is still looking to score his first TD. An intriguing talent but give me a break about how he is some franchise talent. Beckham blew the doors off Toney in terms of jump off the screen talent and look how that turned out. And Beckham’s red flags were minimal compared to Toney’s at this stage of his career.
Wake up.
Red flag on a couple injuries. Brilliance. Training camp was COVID into a hammy. Happens to fast twitch players, then getting his ankle rolled. Red Flags. I guess half the NFL has red flags then.
All your other red flags are minimal and stretches, like you are searching for a reason. The PF.
you have individuals that are eager to bend over backwards to praise players from opposing teams in order to discredit players from a team they claim to support.
You really believe that is what is going on here?
Nobody likes to hear it's them, but the clear lack of objectivity on this board with regard to all things-Giants is what makes for tough threads...
shows how desperate Giants fans are for any degree of success. Starved, depleted, and completely disconnected from reality are some, lol.
You've gone full tilt. Fans are excited by Toney, doesn't mean they are disconnected from reality. No real point in going to such an extreme, this isn't like you.
It is strange. Something must have happened.
Anyway, as to the trade I'm still in a wait and see. At minimum the trade down has given me something else to be interested in this season even though I have no real issues with Chicago.
People here were good with drafting Slater #6 overall after he played ZERO games in 2020 ...
YET...
You need more games to figure out whether DJ should continue to function as the undisputed #1 QB moving forward.
The logic form some of you is mind-boggling. SO it's clear as day most of us figured it didn't make one bit of a difference that he didn't play in 2020. It's a proven fact that it hasn't.
And YET
posters continue to bury their head in the sand that playing in 2020 or not had nay real meaning? Sure -- okay.
Juts because YOU wanted to make an excuse not to take him doesn't make your lame excuse right.
Toney has one very good game and one good game. It’s not a definitive sample size.
Like I posted above, the history of the league is littered with joystick guys who never quite caught on as long term receivers. I think he’s got a bunch to learn.
In the mean time I really wish he was returning punts and kicks.
I guess I just read it differently, I don't think anyone actually thinks at this point in their career Toney is better than Beckham. He's an exciting player we want to see more of.
Personality is what caused a knife fight? Personality is shoving your junk in other players face? Guy has been quiet in the NFL for now but is a piece of garbage and it will re-surface. Slater would have been a nice pick, but guess the staff decided to pass on o-line after using 3 picks the year before, and want to see if those developed.
You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. What a terrible made up post, wow
The arrogance of some on here never ceases to amaze me
People are giving opinions, though the arrogant believe theirs is fact.
I don't know who was comparing Toney to OBJ or why he needs to be OBJ at his best to be worthy of the #20 pick in the draft.
Regardless, those who say they know Toney will never be a pro bowl player - are giving opinion as fact. As are those who say he a punk who is destined embarass the franchise.
I was among those who voiced concernes over those predraft stories and early behavior, but I think he's a good kid.
But feel free to keep brasgging that you knew Slater would be great and that Toney is a POS.
Personality is what caused a knife fight? Personality is shoving your junk in other players face? Guy has been quiet in the NFL for now but is a piece of garbage and it will re-surface. Slater would have been a nice pick, but guess the staff decided to pass on o-line after using 3 picks the year before, and want to see if those developed.
You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. What a terrible made up post, wow
is we haven't seen what happens when defenses plan for him. He didn't even have enough time to break out and have those adjustments made to his game. The Giants roster isn't so chock full of talent that we can't expect these adjustments to happen if Toney produces on an ongoing basis.
The thing about OBJ is that he beat you when you DID game plan against him. He could take a slant to the house every time. So you move a safety up to deny the slant? Oh yeah, he'll chop the top right off your defense. You give him deep help and move a LB over to deny a slant? He runs the skinny post. He covered too much ground too quickly and was actually an adept route runner too. (A reason I think he dropped in the draft was he didn't really get to show this in college because the game looked too easy for him)
Emotionally, one of the reasons I rail against the Giants traditional style is because I think just as difficult as OBJ was they managed him completely wrong. The Giants are traditional and rigid but I think TC was even the best coach for him because TC understood that you have your rules but you have to meet people in the middle too. And DG gets my ire because he literally was the worst kind of person to bring in to interact with OBJ. And I knew that the day he was hired and spoke to the personality problems.
It's really hard to watch this team. Tear down in the press players like OBJ, Collins, Snacks and Pugh who were the core of a playoff team. Cross people off like Parsons for "character" and then draft Baker or Toney. They aren't a proud franchise with certain values and beliefs they are just quite poor at properly analyzing risks and rewards and forming that into a cohesive strategy. Then they use the press to either chat up their players so we think they are doing a better job than they are or make their scouting failures look like personal problems with personalities, coaches etc. instead of what they are. They treat us fans like we are stupid but it's actually them who are stupid for thinking that these patterns aren't quite obvious at this point. But they seem content to fool 30% of the fan base. And it looks like they'd be happy even lower than that
it did not appear that opting out in 2020 had no impact on his performance as a pro.
At the time, literally no one could say for sure. It happened very rarely prior to last year.
In R Slater's case - it was pretty obvious that he was going to be a terrific OLINEMAN whether he opted out or not. Which is why he was so high on draft boards.
RE: The arrogance of some on here never ceases to amaze me
People are giving opinions, though the arrogant believe theirs is fact.
I don't know who was comparing Toney to OBJ or why he needs to be OBJ at his best to be worthy of the #20 pick in the draft.
Regardless, those who say they know Toney will never be a pro bowl player - are giving opinion as fact. As are those who say he a punk who is destined embarass the franchise.
I was among those who voiced concernes over those predraft stories and early behavior, but I think he's a good kid.
But feel free to keep brasgging that you knew Slater would be great and that Toney is a POS.
OBJ was great on the field but he could disappear when the pressure was on. He had a great burst but also could get alligator arms. I was a fan nonetheless.
Toney, we have a very small sample size. He has some skills and a tenacity that OBJ never had. He can make you miss in a phone booth. His 40 yrd dash time is .04 faster than Beckham, 4.39 vs 4.43. Beckham doesn't make that first 3rd and long catch for a first down Toney made. Not even close. When a QB actually targets Toney as Eli did with Beckham, Toney gains 189 yards. He has ELITE ability and he isn't a diva. Toney seems to be a hardnosed competitor.
All that plus a potentially Top 10 2022 draft pick loaded with OL and Edge talent?
Sign me up.
I too wanted Parson and liked Slater but it was not to be. I can live with what we did get instead.
OBJ was great on the field but he could disappear when the pressure was on. He had a great burst but also could get alligator arms. I was a fan nonetheless.
Toney, we have a very small sample size. He has some skills and a tenacity that OBJ never had. He can make you miss in a phone booth. His 40 yrd dash time is .04 faster than Beckham, 4.39 vs 4.43. Beckham doesn't make that first 3rd and long catch for a first down Toney made. Not even close. When a QB actually targets Toney as Eli did with Beckham, Toney gains 189 yards. He has ELITE ability and he isn't a diva. Toney seems to be a hardnosed competitor.
All that plus a potentially Top 10 2022 draft pick loaded with OL and Edge talent?
Sign me up.
I too wanted Parson and liked Slater but it was not to be. I can live with what we did get instead.
Just a refresher course on OBJ. He hit the ground running. Zero learning curve...
OBJ was great on the field but he could disappear when the pressure was on. He had a great burst but also could get alligator arms. I was a fan nonetheless.
Toney, we have a very small sample size. He has some skills and a tenacity that OBJ never had. He can make you miss in a phone booth. His 40 yrd dash time is .04 faster than Beckham, 4.39 vs 4.43. Beckham doesn't make that first 3rd and long catch for a first down Toney made. Not even close. When a QB actually targets Toney as Eli did with Beckham, Toney gains 189 yards. He has ELITE ability and he isn't a diva. Toney seems to be a hardnosed competitor.
All that plus a potentially Top 10 2022 draft pick loaded with OL and Edge talent?
Sign me up.
I too wanted Parson and liked Slater but it was not to be. I can live with what we did get instead.
Just a refresher course on OBJ. He hit the ground running. Zero learning curve...
That is a phenomenal three year start to his career.
I don't care how Toney looked on a few plays - and he looks like he has some unique skills - he isn't in the same class as OBJ when OBJ started.
Just look at those #s again...
Odell was great his first 3 years and was our only weapon. I remember well. As I said I am a fan. He also had a 2 time Super Bowl MVP throwing to him. They were the offense.
You cannot deny that Toney has Elite skills that Odell didn't and doesn't have. He is a baller. Let's see what he develops into. At the least, I'll bet he's a 1000 yard a season receiver and a problem for the defense.
Beckham of course saw his training camp cut short by injury. Without training camp, Odell in his first 7 games had 41 receptions, ~600 yards, 5 TDs. And in his 7th game, he made one of the great catches in history v Dallas.
or has refused help will keep him out of Canton and put him on the list of great wasted talent.
But it won't erase what he did before he broke his ankle. He was an elite top of the league on field talent for 3 seasons and only missed 1 game once he started playing. 90+ catches and double digit TDs all 3 years.
Toney so far is a novelty act being used poor in the least creative offense in the NFL with one good game under his belt. Maybe if he was in KC it would be a different story.
If we had a time machine there's definitely an argument for staying put and taking either of those guys. But I'm not going to get upset about one of the very few smart things the Giants have done in the past 4 years
I miss Tom Coughlin and I knew I would. Nice post, NGD.
I'll cop to thinking it was TCs time to go but I think that is part of what is annoying about watching this trend go on where it feels like there is a bigger concern with managing a story than performance. I think much like some other coaches who this happened to the PR team around the Giants wanted to pin everything on TC so it was fair to believe it was more his fault than it may have actually been because my antenna's weren't up for this at the time.
That all being said I still don't think I appreciated him enough for what he was. He was a hell of a leader.
He was a top player, but the amount of times he over-estimated his ability to gain YAC only to dance and lose yards was very high. I haven’t seen that lack of discretion or ability from Toney thus far.
He was a top player, but the amount of times he over-estimated his ability to gain YAC only to dance and lose yards was very high. I haven’t seen that lack of discretion or ability from Toney thus far.
The desire to trash former Giants and prop up current ones is weird and frankly disingenuous. We went to the playoffs with OBJ. He was an all-pro talent.
Toney because he didn't know the playbook well enough, wasn't ready whatever missed games. OBJ was injured and still came in and set the league on fire.
You can say he "danced around" all you want but jesus is that a nit pick.
Meanwhile you want to talk about the "better attributes" of Toney who has shown some promise but can't sniff the production of OBJ.
The downplaying of the character differences is also odd at best. OBJ did some weird stuff but for all intents and purposes was one of the hardest workers on the team. Toney can't even stay on the field. What he said about Ruggs not only makes you question his judgement, it makes you question his character. I never questioned OBJ's character just some of his decisions.
No one was more critical of Beckham on this board than I was...
Toney ain't Beckham, and he's never gonna be. Personally I don't think Toney looks like he was worth the pick. Slot receivers are easy to find; I still don't understand why they picked him.
We traded the 11th pick for the 20th pick and what looks like a top ten pick in this draft coming up plus the other picks. Its a no brainer the trade was awesome for the Giants.
Unless Slater turns into a player that you'd trade two first round picks for.
No one was more critical of Beckham on this board than I was...
Toney ain't Beckham, and he's never gonna be. Personally I don't think Toney looks like he was worth the pick. Slot receivers are easy to find; I still don't understand why they picked him.
He clearly has special movement skills. He's probably already the best WR in the league at making people miss. The way he cuts is different. I'm not ready to compare him to Odell, Odell was amazing his first few years. But he clearly looks like he has some real talent.
When he was drafted, I was thinking that he had the potential to be a slot monster with his skill-set. I think ultimately he will be at his best in the slot. But he has made some plays on the ball while playing outside that make me think he could be successful outside as well. He had like 3 great catches near the sideline in the Dallas game.
It's been a bumpy rookie season. The durability looks like a major concern considering his playstyle relies on violent cutting. There have been threads discussing his personality/mentality. But that brief flash of greatness he showed is enough to make me feel optimistic about his potential.
Slater and Parsons look good, especially Slater. But Toney's flashed enough where you still make that trade down every day of the week imo.
Yeah he can make people miss, but that's not the same as having the innate ability (or instinct, or whatever it is) to gain yards with the ball in your hands.
I'm guessing Toney is more elusive than, say, Deebo Samuel. That doesn't make him Deebo Samuel.
He's got 28 catches at 12.6 yards a pop. Why are we calling this guy a great weapon already?
At some point we're going to actually wait for guys on this team to do great things before calling them great, right? Because right now I keep hearing about how great our players are, but we actually don't have any great players.
Yeah he can make people miss, but that's not the same as having the innate ability (or instinct, or whatever it is) to gain yards with the ball in your hands.
I'm guessing Toney is more elusive than, say, Deebo Samuel. That doesn't make him Deebo Samuel.
He's got 28 catches at 12.6 yards a pop. Why are we calling this guy a great weapon already?
At some point we're going to actually wait for guys on this team to do great things before calling them great, right? Because right now I keep hearing about how great our players are, but we actually don't have any great players.
I'm not calling him "great", he has a lot to prove. I'd grade his season so far as "Incomplete - Optimistic" at this point. He's clearly not a bum which is the first hurdle a rookie needs to prove.
I think it's too early to really analyze his stats considering how inconsistent his usage has been due to durability issues. The 12.8 YPC on 28 catches doesn't really tell too much. Deebo is at 18.1 YPC this year and just killing it, but he averaged "only" 13.3 YPC on 90 receptions over his first 2 years.
I disagree with you about questioning his "innate ability to gain yards with the ball in his hands". I think there's a lot you can question about him, but he clearly has that particular skill. The reception he had against the Cowboys where he planted and started his cut before he caught the ball was special. He felt exactly where the open space was, made 3 Cowboys DBs (including Diggs) look silly and then burst his way through the middle down to the 1yd line. It's the play that stands out the most to me from this season.
He has a lot to prove. But the way he jumped off the screen in the Dallas game isn't something any random player can do.
Meanwhile he has 28 receptions midway through his rookie season, his longest reception is 38 yards and he is still looking to score his first TD. An intriguing talent but give me a break about how he is some franchise talent. Beckham blew the doors off Toney in terms of jump off the screen talent and look how that turned out. And Beckham’s red flags were minimal compared to Toney’s at this stage of his career.
Wake up.
Gun incident, had a legal gun on the backseat of the car and got a warning. Not much of an incident. 2nd Amendment
I've been waiting football for a long time.
In his first few seasons in the NFL, OBJ was the best WR I had seen since Rice. He was a threat to score every time he touched the ball. His quickness, burst, and acceleration were elite. And he caught everything.
Toney has skills, but not like that...
Meanwhile he has 28 receptions midway through his rookie season, his longest reception is 38 yards and he is still looking to score his first TD. An intriguing talent but give me a break about how he is some franchise talent. Beckham blew the doors off Toney in terms of jump off the screen talent and look how that turned out. And Beckham’s red flags were minimal compared to Toney’s at this stage of his career.
Wake up.
Red flag on a couple injuries. Brilliance. Training camp was COVID into a hammy. Happens to fast twitch players, then getting his ankle rolled. Red Flags. I guess half the NFL has red flags then.
All your other red flags are minimal and stretches, like you are searching for a reason. The PF.
Dumb things from a 22 year old - shocking.
There was less known about EVERY NFL prospect this year than ANY other year prior. Between the lack of combine participation, the zoom interviews, the abbreviated NCAA schedules, shoot...the Giants drafted a player that didn't play in a single game last year b/c his college team didn't play!
The draft is always a crap shoot - but there's strategy in craps, last year was like playing craps without knowing the rules (something I've done before..and if you're looking to lose money in a hurry - it's a great way to play).
Trading picks last year to get more picks this year might have been the smartest thing the NYG front office has done the past 10 years.
So smart - I doubt it came from DG.
Quote:
In comment 15456005 christian said:
Quote:
Even if the tackle can’t cut it — you have a guard.
Want to really make some heads explode here? The last two 1st round tackles Reese drafted are two of the better blocking guards in the NFL. Today.
You really can't make it up...can you?
But that's an excellent point about OLT. You can always move them inside, or to the other T side.
True... but then you used a top pick for a guard. Not sure why we simply cannot draft tackles. Hopefully Thomas changes that for us.
Meanwhile, this is why I prefer to get my tackles via free agency. You can still fuck that up (Solder), but you at least have a chance to have someone else teach him the position and watch him play the position in the NFL first.
I am completely the opposite on this thinking. Players at premium positions like Offensive Tackle should be acquired via the draft as long as you don't predict it will take years before he is "taught" how to play it.
An high priced OT can be obtained via Free Agency but your "window" of potentially winning better be very clear...
You've gone full tilt. Fans are excited by Toney, doesn't mean they are disconnected from reality. No real point in going to such an extreme, this isn't like you.
Quote:
The gun incident, Sy’s back channel warning, the personal foul, the training camp non participation and then the tweet. It wasn’t the tweet per se, although that was dumb. It’s that it showed Toney was hazy about the difference between young men doing stupid things and criminal activity that leads to death. He apparently doesn’t grok the fundamental difference between the two. Which means he is a fairly sizable risk to shame the franchise the next time he is in a stupid situation that requires adult decisionmaking.
Meanwhile he has 28 receptions midway through his rookie season, his longest reception is 38 yards and he is still looking to score his first TD. An intriguing talent but give me a break about how he is some franchise talent. Beckham blew the doors off Toney in terms of jump off the screen talent and look how that turned out. And Beckham’s red flags were minimal compared to Toney’s at this stage of his career.
Wake up.
Red flag on a couple injuries. Brilliance. Training camp was COVID into a hammy. Happens to fast twitch players, then getting his ankle rolled. Red Flags. I guess half the NFL has red flags then.
All your other red flags are minimal and stretches, like you are searching for a reason. The PF.
Dumb things from a 22 year old - shocking.
I would have thought you were older than 22...
You really believe that is what is going on here?
Nobody likes to hear it's them, but the clear lack of objectivity on this board with regard to all things-Giants is what makes for tough threads...
Quote:
shows how desperate Giants fans are for any degree of success. Starved, depleted, and completely disconnected from reality are some, lol.
You've gone full tilt. Fans are excited by Toney, doesn't mean they are disconnected from reality. No real point in going to such an extreme, this isn't like you.
It is strange. Something must have happened.
Anyway, as to the trade I'm still in a wait and see. At minimum the trade down has given me something else to be interested in this season even though I have no real issues with Chicago.
People here were good with drafting Slater #6 overall after he played ZERO games in 2020 ...
YET...
You need more games to figure out whether DJ should continue to function as the undisputed #1 QB moving forward.
People here were good with drafting Slater #6 overall after he played ZERO games in 2020 ...
YET...
You need more games to figure out whether DJ should continue to function as the undisputed #1 QB moving forward.
The logic form some of you is mind-boggling. SO it's clear as day most of us figured it didn't make one bit of a difference that he didn't play in 2020. It's a proven fact that it hasn't.
And YET
posters continue to bury their head in the sand that playing in 2020 or not had nay real meaning? Sure -- okay.
Juts because YOU wanted to make an excuse not to take him doesn't make your lame excuse right.
UConn, for a poster to claim Toney's got skills OB never had is a disconnected embellishment. Write it a different way if you'd like, I'm not wrong.
Like I posted above, the history of the league is littered with joystick guys who never quite caught on as long term receivers. I think he’s got a bunch to learn.
In the mean time I really wish he was returning punts and kicks.
I see myself doing this too. I've fallen into the trap of hyping guys who turn out to be average, lol.
It's been a long decade of Giants football.
At the time, literally no one could say for sure. It happened very rarely prior to last year.
You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. What a terrible made up post, wow
I don't know who was comparing Toney to OBJ or why he needs to be OBJ at his best to be worthy of the #20 pick in the draft.
Regardless, those who say they know Toney will never be a pro bowl player - are giving opinion as fact. As are those who say he a punk who is destined embarass the franchise.
I was among those who voiced concernes over those predraft stories and early behavior, but I think he's a good kid.
But feel free to keep brasgging that you knew Slater would be great and that Toney is a POS.
It's okay, we need someone to reignite the fire.
Story of my life :)
Quote:
Personality is what caused a knife fight? Personality is shoving your junk in other players face? Guy has been quiet in the NFL for now but is a piece of garbage and it will re-surface. Slater would have been a nice pick, but guess the staff decided to pass on o-line after using 3 picks the year before, and want to see if those developed.
You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. What a terrible made up post, wow
Do some research plenty of articles about it.
Link - ( New Window )
The thing about OBJ is that he beat you when you DID game plan against him. He could take a slant to the house every time. So you move a safety up to deny the slant? Oh yeah, he'll chop the top right off your defense. You give him deep help and move a LB over to deny a slant? He runs the skinny post. He covered too much ground too quickly and was actually an adept route runner too. (A reason I think he dropped in the draft was he didn't really get to show this in college because the game looked too easy for him)
Emotionally, one of the reasons I rail against the Giants traditional style is because I think just as difficult as OBJ was they managed him completely wrong. The Giants are traditional and rigid but I think TC was even the best coach for him because TC understood that you have your rules but you have to meet people in the middle too. And DG gets my ire because he literally was the worst kind of person to bring in to interact with OBJ. And I knew that the day he was hired and spoke to the personality problems.
It's really hard to watch this team. Tear down in the press players like OBJ, Collins, Snacks and Pugh who were the core of a playoff team. Cross people off like Parsons for "character" and then draft Baker or Toney. They aren't a proud franchise with certain values and beliefs they are just quite poor at properly analyzing risks and rewards and forming that into a cohesive strategy. Then they use the press to either chat up their players so we think they are doing a better job than they are or make their scouting failures look like personal problems with personalities, coaches etc. instead of what they are. They treat us fans like we are stupid but it's actually them who are stupid for thinking that these patterns aren't quite obvious at this point. But they seem content to fool 30% of the fan base. And it looks like they'd be happy even lower than that
At the time, literally no one could say for sure. It happened very rarely prior to last year.
In R Slater's case - it was pretty obvious that he was going to be a terrific OLINEMAN whether he opted out or not. Which is why he was so high on draft boards.
I don't know who was comparing Toney to OBJ or why he needs to be OBJ at his best to be worthy of the #20 pick in the draft.
Regardless, those who say they know Toney will never be a pro bowl player - are giving opinion as fact. As are those who say he a punk who is destined embarass the franchise.
I was among those who voiced concernes over those predraft stories and early behavior, but I think he's a good kid.
But feel free to keep brasgging that you knew Slater would be great and that Toney is a POS.
Was anyone saying Toney is a POS?
Toney, we have a very small sample size. He has some skills and a tenacity that OBJ never had. He can make you miss in a phone booth. His 40 yrd dash time is .04 faster than Beckham, 4.39 vs 4.43. Beckham doesn't make that first 3rd and long catch for a first down Toney made. Not even close. When a QB actually targets Toney as Eli did with Beckham, Toney gains 189 yards. He has ELITE ability and he isn't a diva. Toney seems to be a hardnosed competitor.
All that plus a potentially Top 10 2022 draft pick loaded with OL and Edge talent?
Sign me up.
I too wanted Parson and liked Slater but it was not to be. I can live with what we did get instead.
Toney, we have a very small sample size. He has some skills and a tenacity that OBJ never had. He can make you miss in a phone booth. His 40 yrd dash time is .04 faster than Beckham, 4.39 vs 4.43. Beckham doesn't make that first 3rd and long catch for a first down Toney made. Not even close. When a QB actually targets Toney as Eli did with Beckham, Toney gains 189 yards. He has ELITE ability and he isn't a diva. Toney seems to be a hardnosed competitor.
All that plus a potentially Top 10 2022 draft pick loaded with OL and Edge talent?
Sign me up.
I too wanted Parson and liked Slater but it was not to be. I can live with what we did get instead.
Just a refresher course on OBJ. He hit the ground running. Zero learning curve...
2014: 91 catches/1300+ yards/12 TDs
2015: 96 catches/1450/13 TDs
2016: 101 catches/1360+/10 TDs
That is a phenomenal three year start to his career.
I don't care how Toney looked on a few plays - and he looks like he has some unique skills - he isn't in the same class as OBJ when OBJ started.
Just look at those #s again...
He's a rookie so I'm willing to give him some time, but already labeling him as some unique weapon...no.
Quote:
OBJ was great on the field but he could disappear when the pressure was on. He had a great burst but also could get alligator arms. I was a fan nonetheless.
Toney, we have a very small sample size. He has some skills and a tenacity that OBJ never had. He can make you miss in a phone booth. His 40 yrd dash time is .04 faster than Beckham, 4.39 vs 4.43. Beckham doesn't make that first 3rd and long catch for a first down Toney made. Not even close. When a QB actually targets Toney as Eli did with Beckham, Toney gains 189 yards. He has ELITE ability and he isn't a diva. Toney seems to be a hardnosed competitor.
All that plus a potentially Top 10 2022 draft pick loaded with OL and Edge talent?
Sign me up.
I too wanted Parson and liked Slater but it was not to be. I can live with what we did get instead.
Just a refresher course on OBJ. He hit the ground running. Zero learning curve...
2014: 91 catches/1300+ yards/12 TDs
2015: 96 catches/1450/13 TDs
2016: 101 catches/1360+/10 TDs
That is a phenomenal three year start to his career.
I don't care how Toney looked on a few plays - and he looks like he has some unique skills - he isn't in the same class as OBJ when OBJ started.
Just look at those #s again...
Odell was great his first 3 years and was our only weapon. I remember well. As I said I am a fan. He also had a 2 time Super Bowl MVP throwing to him. They were the offense.
You cannot deny that Toney has Elite skills that Odell didn't and doesn't have. He is a baller. Let's see what he develops into. At the least, I'll bet he's a 1000 yard a season receiver and a problem for the defense.
No question that at this point in their careers OBJ had proven to be the much more productive player.
It is also fair to say - they are much different players.
OBJ is more a true speed WR
Toney is more elusive (and IMO a tough runner, stronger)
And time will tell, but whatever issues come up with Toney - I expect they will not be diva issues. The kids a baller.
Beckham of course saw his training camp cut short by injury. Without training camp, Odell in his first 7 games had 41 receptions, ~600 yards, 5 TDs. And in his 7th game, he made one of the great catches in history v Dallas.
There is really no comparison between the two.
But it won't erase what he did before he broke his ankle. He was an elite top of the league on field talent for 3 seasons and only missed 1 game once he started playing. 90+ catches and double digit TDs all 3 years.
Toney so far is a novelty act being used poor in the least creative offense in the NFL with one good game under his belt. Maybe if he was in KC it would be a different story.
#20, #164 [5th]
plus next year's 1st and 4th round pick
Are you kidding me? that's a slam dunk!
I'll cop to thinking it was TCs time to go but I think that is part of what is annoying about watching this trend go on where it feels like there is a bigger concern with managing a story than performance. I think much like some other coaches who this happened to the PR team around the Giants wanted to pin everything on TC so it was fair to believe it was more his fault than it may have actually been because my antenna's weren't up for this at the time.
That all being said I still don't think I appreciated him enough for what he was. He was a hell of a leader.
The desire to trash former Giants and prop up current ones is weird and frankly disingenuous. We went to the playoffs with OBJ. He was an all-pro talent.
Toney because he didn't know the playbook well enough, wasn't ready whatever missed games. OBJ was injured and still came in and set the league on fire.
You can say he "danced around" all you want but jesus is that a nit pick.
Meanwhile you want to talk about the "better attributes" of Toney who has shown some promise but can't sniff the production of OBJ.
The downplaying of the character differences is also odd at best. OBJ did some weird stuff but for all intents and purposes was one of the hardest workers on the team. Toney can't even stay on the field. What he said about Ruggs not only makes you question his judgement, it makes you question his character. I never questioned OBJ's character just some of his decisions.
Toney ain't Beckham, and he's never gonna be. Personally I don't think Toney looks like he was worth the pick. Slot receivers are easy to find; I still don't understand why they picked him.
Unless Slater turns into a player that you'd trade two first round picks for.
That's kind of the discussion, no?
Toney ain't Beckham, and he's never gonna be. Personally I don't think Toney looks like he was worth the pick. Slot receivers are easy to find; I still don't understand why they picked him.
He clearly has special movement skills. He's probably already the best WR in the league at making people miss. The way he cuts is different. I'm not ready to compare him to Odell, Odell was amazing his first few years. But he clearly looks like he has some real talent.
When he was drafted, I was thinking that he had the potential to be a slot monster with his skill-set. I think ultimately he will be at his best in the slot. But he has made some plays on the ball while playing outside that make me think he could be successful outside as well. He had like 3 great catches near the sideline in the Dallas game.
It's been a bumpy rookie season. The durability looks like a major concern considering his playstyle relies on violent cutting. There have been threads discussing his personality/mentality. But that brief flash of greatness he showed is enough to make me feel optimistic about his potential.
Slater and Parsons look good, especially Slater. But Toney's flashed enough where you still make that trade down every day of the week imo.
I'm guessing Toney is more elusive than, say, Deebo Samuel. That doesn't make him Deebo Samuel.
He's got 28 catches at 12.6 yards a pop. Why are we calling this guy a great weapon already?
At some point we're going to actually wait for guys on this team to do great things before calling them great, right? Because right now I keep hearing about how great our players are, but we actually don't have any great players.
I'm guessing Toney is more elusive than, say, Deebo Samuel. That doesn't make him Deebo Samuel.
He's got 28 catches at 12.6 yards a pop. Why are we calling this guy a great weapon already?
At some point we're going to actually wait for guys on this team to do great things before calling them great, right? Because right now I keep hearing about how great our players are, but we actually don't have any great players.
I'm not calling him "great", he has a lot to prove. I'd grade his season so far as "Incomplete - Optimistic" at this point. He's clearly not a bum which is the first hurdle a rookie needs to prove.
I think it's too early to really analyze his stats considering how inconsistent his usage has been due to durability issues. The 12.8 YPC on 28 catches doesn't really tell too much. Deebo is at 18.1 YPC this year and just killing it, but he averaged "only" 13.3 YPC on 90 receptions over his first 2 years.
I disagree with you about questioning his "innate ability to gain yards with the ball in his hands". I think there's a lot you can question about him, but he clearly has that particular skill. The reception he had against the Cowboys where he planted and started his cut before he caught the ball was special. He felt exactly where the open space was, made 3 Cowboys DBs (including Diggs) look silly and then burst his way through the middle down to the 1yd line. It's the play that stands out the most to me from this season.
He has a lot to prove. But the way he jumped off the screen in the Dallas game isn't something any random player can do.