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Some good Duggan notes from The Athletic

Sean : 11/16/2021 5:52 pm
This is behind a paywall, but some good points made:

Re: Jones
Quote:
The Giants need to decide on Jones’ fifth-year option for the 2023 season by early May. That option is projected to cost $21.4 million. Jones’ cap hit is just $7.2 million this season, so exercising that option signals a serious commitment.

If Jones’ performance doesn’t improve, the most pragmatic approach would be to decline the option and let Jones play out the final season of his rookie deal. His cap hit is just $8.4 million in 2022.

That would maintain maximum flexibility, as the Giants could simply cut ties after next season if Jones doesn’t pan out. If Jones finally delivers in Year 4, the team could still retain him via the franchise tag or an extension, but that would be more costly than exercising the fifth-year option.


Re: Judge
Quote:
It’s nearly impossible to envision a scenario where Joe Judge isn’t back for a third season as head coach. Maybe ownership would make a change if the Giants lose their final eight games, but even then, there would likely need to be major locker-room issues to prompt a move.

Mara has made it clear that it’s important to him that a coach doesn’t lose the locker room. The team hasn’t quit on Judge in either of his two seasons despite slow starts, so there’s no reason to expect a second-half collapse.

Judge needs to figure out a way to avoid such poor starts, but expect the Giants to give the 39-year-old first-time head coach the opportunity to learn from some of his early missteps.


Re: Gettleman
Quote:
If Judge is retained, that makes things stickier on the general manager front. Gettleman has proven to have surprising staying power, but it seems impossible that ownership could sell a fourth losing season to a restless fan base. So unless there’s a dramatic second-half turnaround, the Giants will likely be in the market for a new GM.

For the same reason that keeping Gettleman would be untenable, it’s hard to foresee an internal promotion. Promoting a lieutenant from Gettleman’s unsuccessful tenure would be a head-scratcher.

If the Giants go outside of the organization, they’ll need to find a candidate who is compatible with Judge. The question is how much weight they put on Judge during the GM search. Do they prioritize a candidate with ties to Judge, such as Titans director of player personnel Monti Ossenfort, or do they just find the best option who will sign on to work with Judge?

That’s the downside of having a coach and general manager on separate tracks. If the Giants finish with a similar record to last season, Judge’s seat will be heating up at the same time a new general manager is coming on board. It’s a potentially messy corner the Giants have backed themselves into by sticking with Gettleman.


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RE: Drafting a QB in the first round  
Go Terps : 11/17/2021 1:12 pm : link
I agree with JonC and others that have stated the Giants should not force a QB pick. They shouldn't - that's how they ended up with Jones.

Where I diverge from that opinion is with Matt Corral. If we're picking at 6 and he's there I think he's a great pick at that spot.

A guy that I'd love to land in the second round or later would be Louisville's Malik Cunningham. Good runner (16 TDs this year) and passer (8.6 AY/A) that might be a good value in round 2.

There are options if you trade Jones. Good options.
RE: Tuff  
GiantTuff1 : 11/17/2021 1:14 pm : link
In comment 15456458 JonC said:
Quote:
Works for me, I'd even support trading Jones as I do think they're destined to change QBs.


I would support that too if that destiny materializes as it appears is happening.

The interesting bit will be to see what Judge and New GM do with Jones. If Jones is jettison'ed quickly by Judge/GM it will be a major indictment of the Giants forcing themself onto Judge's tenure. They will even moreso owe it to Judge to reset the clock on him. Really interesting times coming up in Jints Land...
I just don't expect the Giants  
JonC : 11/17/2021 1:16 pm : link
to exhibit that level of self-scouting or honesty. I'd be pleasantly shocked, but still shocked. It would indicate at least some level of reversal.
RE: RE: The big risk here is that the Giants slither into giving  
GiantTuff1 : 11/17/2021 1:16 pm : link
In comment 15456486 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15456472 cosmicj said:


Quote:


Jones a Kirk Cousins like contract that slides them into QB Hell Central Headquarters. And this organization is so confused and reactive, that is a realistic possibility. And that’s true of Barkley’s 2nd contract, too, to a lesser extent.

I’m less worried about optimizing things than avoiding that disaster. Trade Jones; retire DG; hire an outside GM. Anything to avoid that scenario. Risk mitigation, man.



Horrifying scenario.

I believe Judge would jump at a chance to upgrade over Jones. Judge seems like a smart guy.


+100
...  
Lenny in Indy : 11/17/2021 1:17 pm : link
And both of those options are better than signing a vet to start. Vets that contribute to winning games for under 10mil (25?) are few and far between. You're off with a rookie and trubisky/mccoy for peanuts.
Mara  
TyreeHelmet : 11/17/2021 1:24 pm : link
"Mara has made it clear that it’s important to him that a coach doesn’t lose the locker room. The team hasn’t quit on Judge in either of his two seasons despite slow starts, so there’s no reason to expect a second-half collapse."

I love how the barometer of success now is the team not quitting or losing the locker room. Is it too much to ask to compete for a playoff spot? Or really shoot for the moon and compete for the division....?
RE: ...  
Go Terps : 11/17/2021 1:25 pm : link
In comment 15456552 Lenny in Indy said:
Quote:
And both of those options are better than signing a vet to start. Vets that contribute to winning games for under 10mil (25?) are few and far between. You're off with a rookie and trubisky/mccoy for peanuts.


I think if you're signing a vet for 2022 it's merely as a placeholder, which is what Jones would be. You're just doing it for cheaper than Jones and getting something in trade to boot.

2022 is looking like a mess anyway.
is Judge really going to punt 2022  
UConn4523 : 11/17/2021 1:28 pm : link
with a vet with no upside? Kinda hard sell all around. Makes no difference to me personally, I just don't see how it works at the executive or coaching levels.
RE: All of those guys  
giantstock : 11/17/2021 1:46 pm : link
In comment 15456408 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
give a team the same kind of value, upside and production as DJ.



Absurd. Idiotic.
RE: is Judge really going to punt 2022  
Scooter185 : 11/17/2021 1:50 pm : link
In comment 15456564 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
with a vet with no upside? Kinda hard sell all around. Makes no difference to me personally, I just don't see how it works at the executive or coaching levels.


Honestly it should give him and the rest of the coaching staff some more breathing room. Keeping Jones for year 4 and still not being a good team would mean the end of JJ here. A placeholder QB leading into a new QB in 23 (either one drafted in 22 and reshirted or one drafted in 23) resets his clock.
RE: RE: All of those guys  
Dnew15 : 11/17/2021 1:51 pm : link
In comment 15456586 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 15456408 Dnew15 said:


Quote:


give a team the same kind of value, upside and production as DJ.





Absurd. Idiotic.


ok
RE: RE: RE: All of those guys  
giantstock : 11/17/2021 2:01 pm : link
In comment 15456594 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
In comment 15456586 giantstock said:


Quote:


In comment 15456408 Dnew15 said:


Quote:


give a team the same kind of value, upside and production as DJ.





Absurd. Idiotic.



ok


You put Glennon in the same category as Jones as of this moment and you expect not to be ridiculed for it?
RE: is Judge really going to punt 2022  
Go Terps : 11/17/2021 2:06 pm : link
In comment 15456564 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
with a vet with no upside? Kinda hard sell all around. Makes no difference to me personally, I just don't see how it works at the executive or coaching levels.


It's a punt with Jones - a vet with no upside.

The executives and coaches have to stop worrying about selling things to the superfans.
RE: is Judge really going to punt 2022  
giantstock : 11/17/2021 2:10 pm : link
In comment 15456564 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
with a vet with no upside? Kinda hard sell all around. Makes no difference to me personally, I just don't see how it works at the executive or coaching levels.


Probably not. Anything is possible under certain circumstances.

But to insane fans - that's their belief of only 1 option.
Seems pretty clear to me...  
trueblueinpw : 11/17/2021 2:20 pm : link
We all debate DJ and Judge and there's even still some Getty defenders. But the following points are in my opinion, obvious points of agreement.

1. The Giants are owned by Mara Tisch, and no one in that clan is going anywhere.

2.Getty is therefor the top ranking REPLACEABLE member of the Giants leadership organization. He's responsible for drafting, pro player matters and the cap. He sets the tone for the organization - even though Mara and family may be pulling the strings - we have to accept that the GM is the proverbial head of the rotting fish that is the Giants franchise.

3. There's just no denying that Getty's record as a GM is terrible. I don't think Getty ever had a fastball, but if he did, it is long past the time he can throw it. Getty is a GM with a loosing record and should be let go as soon as possible.

4. Judge may one day BECOME, but has not yet BEEN a winning head coach. Many of us like his demeanor and conduct with the press and we all seem to like the IDEA of Joe Judge as HC/NYG. But even adjusting for his lack of experience, what have we seen Judge accomplish? Putting aside the press conferences, how is Judge better than McAd'oh or Murmur? He isn't a good game manager. He makes no apparent game time adjustments. He isn't a good game planner. He doesn't seem to have any ability to get the offense out of the basement of the NFL. He has no obvious talents as a coach other than talking to the media. At best Judge would appear to be a "CEO type" of HC but really, isn't that setting an awfully low bar for holding one of only 32 NFL HC positions? I wouldn't fire him if the GM position was steady but the GM sucks and needs to be replaced. Why limit GM candidates by saddling them with a heretofore undistinguished HC?

5. Jones hasn't been a winning QB1. There's a long list of excuses for Jones' poor performance. Most of these excuses miss the point in my opinion, but even accepting every excuse, Jones has been bad on almost every game day of his career. Even Jones' staunchest or most delusional supports can't hide Jones' pathetic won / lost record, his turnovers and his apparent allergy to scoring TDs in the red zone. He hasn't been very durable either. Has Jones made anyone around him better? I think we need to ask the same question here as we ask about Judge: what has Jones DONE in his time here that makes anyone think he's a franchise QB. That list of things he's done is NOT zero because Jones has flashed. But, has he really flashed enough to convince people he's better than a solid backup?

So, if we can at least agree to see things the way they are, and not look at things the way we wish they were or the way we think things MIGHT one day be in the future, these decisions all begin to look really clear and pretty simple.

Based on the way things are, the Giants are a horrible bottom 5 NFL organization that should rebuild from the top down. Fire Getty, as quickly as possible, and let the new GM make the decisions on Judge and Jones.
RE: measurable metrics  
bw in dc : 11/17/2021 2:39 pm : link
In comment 15456532 fkap said:
Quote:
can be useful tools, but allowances have to be made when factors outside the control of the person being measured rear their ugly head. Sorry if that simple concept is difficult to grasp.

Evaluation can still be made, but metrics don't always tell the whole story.

I'm more interested in more in-depth metrics. How does DJ do when given time AND his receiver is open, for example. Merely checking the stats on NFL.com is not enough.


Look, I get that we don't have the full infantry so Jones can operate under football Xanadu.

But JFC at some point he's got to do more than he's doing - regardless of the circumstances.

I can't prove it, but I am getting the sense that Jones doesn't have the ability - on a play to play basis - to check out of the designed plays for a better play based on coverage. I would bet there are more plays to be made but Jones just doesn't see the opportunities. How often have we heard Judge/Garrett say "...great play by Daniel getting us out of the original play and getting the ball to ________ instead..."

Ever??
trueblue  
JonC : 11/17/2021 2:40 pm : link
good post, that's along the lines of how I tend to look at things. Posters ask why not default to optimism, well there's a good framework of the obvious shortcomings put on the football field and by the front office that pre-empt optimism until they are demonstrated.
RE: Seems pretty clear to me...  
giantstock : 11/17/2021 3:05 pm : link
In comment 15456623 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:


5. Jones hasn't been a winning QB1. There's a long list of excuses for Jones' poor performance. Most of these excuses miss the point in my opinion, but even accepting every excuse, Jones has been bad on almost every game day of his career. Even Jones' staunchest or most delusional supports can't hide Jones' pathetic won / lost record, his turnovers and his apparent allergy to scoring TDs in the red zone. He hasn't been very durable either. Has Jones made anyone around him better? I think we need to ask the same question here as we ask about Judge: what has Jones DONE in his time here that makes anyone think he's a franchise QB. That list of things he's done is NOT zero because Jones has flashed. But, has he really flashed enough to convince people he's better than a solid backup?



The problem with number 5 is that you aren't very bright.

Let me dumb it down for you. The 2 year pathetic OL, the 2 year pathetic Tight Ends, the last year pathetic receiving core and RB along with the often injured this year receiving core and rb are FACTS. Not excuses. How is that you can't understand what is FACT?

DO some of you have any understanding that football has more than 1 player on it?

Going blindly by wins and losses shows your speed. I guess DeGrom isn't very good either, eh?
RE: RE: Seems pretty clear to me...  
Thegratefulhead : 11/17/2021 3:22 pm : link
In comment 15456679 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 15456623 trueblueinpw said:


Quote:




5. Jones hasn't been a winning QB1. There's a long list of excuses for Jones' poor performance. Most of these excuses miss the point in my opinion, but even accepting every excuse, Jones has been bad on almost every game day of his career. Even Jones' staunchest or most delusional supports can't hide Jones' pathetic won / lost record, his turnovers and his apparent allergy to scoring TDs in the red zone. He hasn't been very durable either. Has Jones made anyone around him better? I think we need to ask the same question here as we ask about Judge: what has Jones DONE in his time here that makes anyone think he's a franchise QB. That list of things he's done is NOT zero because Jones has flashed. But, has he really flashed enough to convince people he's better than a solid backup?





The problem with number 5 is that you aren't very bright.

Let me dumb it down for you. The 2 year pathetic OL, the 2 year pathetic Tight Ends, the last year pathetic receiving core and RB along with the often injured this year receiving core and rb are FACTS. Not excuses. How is that you can't understand what is FACT?

DO some of you have any understanding that football has more than 1 player on it?

Going blindly by wins and losses shows your speed. I guess DeGrom isn't very good either, eh?
OK genius. By what objective measure has Jones been good? Not one game, not just his rookie year. A career based stat that objectively identifies that Jones has the goods.

BY EVERY OBJECTIVE MEASURE, JONES IS JAG.

Fact.
It doesn't matter if you think they're reasons or excuses  
Go Terps : 11/17/2021 3:31 pm : link
Whatever they are, they are there and Jones has been a poor starter with them in place. The excuses/reasons aren't going anywhere before 2023. There isn't a realistic scenario where Jones suddenly becomes a top quarterback here.

Amateurs deal in tactics, masters deal in logistics. Stop whining about the other players already. Jones hasn't gotten it done - the reasons are irrelevant.
RE: RE: Seems pretty clear to me...  
trueblueinpw : 11/17/2021 3:51 pm : link
In comment 15456679 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 15456623 trueblueinpw said:


Quote:




5. Jones hasn't been a winning QB1. There's a long list of excuses for Jones' poor performance. Most of these excuses miss the point in my opinion, but even accepting every excuse, Jones has been bad on almost every game day of his career. Even Jones' staunchest or most delusional supports can't hide Jones' pathetic won / lost record, his turnovers and his apparent allergy to scoring TDs in the red zone. He hasn't been very durable either. Has Jones made anyone around him better? I think we need to ask the same question here as we ask about Judge: what has Jones DONE in his time here that makes anyone think he's a franchise QB. That list of things he's done is NOT zero because Jones has flashed. But, has he really flashed enough to convince people he's better than a solid backup?





The problem with number 5 is that you aren't very bright.

Let me dumb it down for you. The 2 year pathetic OL, the 2 year pathetic Tight Ends, the last year pathetic receiving core and RB along with the often injured this year receiving core and rb are FACTS. Not excuses. How is that you can't understand what is FACT?

DO some of you have any understanding that football has more than 1 player on it?

Going blindly by wins and losses shows your speed. I guess DeGrom isn't very good either, eh?


I have a well practiced policy of not engaging in any personal mud slinging or name calling with other posters here on BBI. But feel free to use your obviously considerable intellect to argue against the merits of my post, or as the case may be, the lack thereof. I'll do my best to keep up with you.
Can we add  
santacruzom : 11/17/2021 4:17 pm : link
A yes/no column for "Has called people morons for being skeptical of Jones" to BBI user profiles? It would be a quick and easy way for me to determine whether someone should be taken seriously.
RE: So we are essentially at the midway point...  
Milton : 11/17/2021 5:05 pm : link
In comment 15456463 bw in dc said:
Quote:

So, to those who say we should let this play out for Jones before we make a final judgment, which is fair, what our your expectations for Jones these last 8 games?
I don't have expectations. I'm open-minded and will let what I see on the field--not what I see in the box score--form my opinion. What I've seen so far is inconsistency. I'll let you know if I think they should pick up the 5th year option when there's no more to see before a decision needs to be made.
p.s.--My guess is that the salary cap is going through the roof in the next few years and money won't factor into the decision on the 5th year option. If they like Jones enough that they aren't taking a QB in the 1st round, then they like him enough to pick up the 5th year.
.  
Go Terps : 11/17/2021 5:07 pm : link
An anticipated increase in the salary cap is even more reason not to pay Jones the 5th year. Go pay someone that's worth it.
Its so crazy with these Jones people  
Jerry in_DC : 11/17/2021 5:10 pm : link
The guy has never been a good QB. Hes been bad in the NFL. In college, his best years he was like #5 or lower statistically in the ACC.

He never made 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team all-ACC. Not even honorable mention ACC.

In the NFL, he hasn't been the literal worst QB, but his numbers are barely starter quality, if that. His offenses have sucked. He has obvious flaws. He doesn't score.

Why does anybody care about this guy? Hes never done a thing for the Giants. He's never been in a big spot in his life.. He's going to be completely forgettable. This whole era is going to be a blank spot in our memory.
RE: Its so crazy with these Jones people  
Go Terps : 11/17/2021 5:18 pm : link
In comment 15456774 Jerry in_DC said:
Quote:
The guy has never been a good QB. Hes been bad in the NFL. In college, his best years he was like #5 or lower statistically in the ACC.

He never made 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team all-ACC. Not even honorable mention ACC.

In the NFL, he hasn't been the literal worst QB, but his numbers are barely starter quality, if that. His offenses have sucked. He has obvious flaws. He doesn't score.

Why does anybody care about this guy? Hes never done a thing for the Giants. He's never been in a big spot in his life.. He's going to be completely forgettable. This whole era is going to be a blank spot in our memory.


Well said.

There's a set of fans that would overrate a smallpox blanket if it had a Giants logo on it. They're the types that post things like "I've got a funny feeling the Giants surprise us this season..." Their biggest contribution is that they are a mirror of John Mara's thoughts.
The Giants do not need to make the call on the 5th year option  
arniefez : 11/17/2021 5:18 pm : link
until after the draft. 2022 draft 4/28-4/30. 5th year option deadline 5/2/22. So it's a non issue until after free agency and the draft.

Someone compared Daniel Jones to Jacob deGrom to say you can't judge a player by won loss record? That beats Tony can do things OBJ couldn't. By quite a large margin actually.

If Daniel Jones' peripherals matched Jacob deGrom's we would all be celebrating the next great Giants QB instead of hoping they replace him.
TrueBlue  
BlueVinnie : 11/17/2021 5:27 pm : link
In comment 15456623 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:
We all debate DJ and Judge and there's even still some Getty defenders. But the following points are in my opinion, obvious points of agreement.

1. The Giants are owned by Mara Tisch, and no one in that clan is going anywhere.

2.Getty is therefor the top ranking REPLACEABLE member of the Giants leadership organization. He's responsible for drafting, pro player matters and the cap. He sets the tone for the organization - even though Mara and family may be pulling the strings - we have to accept that the GM is the proverbial head of the rotting fish that is the Giants franchise.

3. There's just no denying that Getty's record as a GM is terrible. I don't think Getty ever had a fastball, but if he did, it is long past the time he can throw it. Getty is a GM with a loosing record and should be let go as soon as possible.

4. Judge may one day BECOME, but has not yet BEEN a winning head coach. Many of us like his demeanor and conduct with the press and we all seem to like the IDEA of Joe Judge as HC/NYG. But even adjusting for his lack of experience, what have we seen Judge accomplish? Putting aside the press conferences, how is Judge better than McAd'oh or Murmur? He isn't a good game manager. He makes no apparent game time adjustments. He isn't a good game planner. He doesn't seem to have any ability to get the offense out of the basement of the NFL. He has no obvious talents as a coach other than talking to the media. At best Judge would appear to be a "CEO type" of HC but really, isn't that setting an awfully low bar for holding one of only 32 NFL HC positions? I wouldn't fire him if the GM position was steady but the GM sucks and needs to be replaced. Why limit GM candidates by saddling them with a heretofore undistinguished HC?

5. Jones hasn't been a winning QB1. There's a long list of excuses for Jones' poor performance. Most of these excuses miss the point in my opinion, but even accepting every excuse, Jones has been bad on almost every game day of his career. Even Jones' staunchest or most delusional supports can't hide Jones' pathetic won / lost record, his turnovers and his apparent allergy to scoring TDs in the red zone. He hasn't been very durable either. Has Jones made anyone around him better? I think we need to ask the same question here as we ask about Judge: what has Jones DONE in his time here that makes anyone think he's a franchise QB. That list of things he's done is NOT zero because Jones has flashed. But, has he really flashed enough to convince people he's better than a solid backup?

So, if we can at least agree to see things the way they are, and not look at things the way we wish they were or the way we think things MIGHT one day be in the future, these decisions all begin to look really clear and pretty simple.

Based on the way things are, the Giants are a horrible bottom 5 NFL organization that should rebuild from the top down. Fire Getty, as quickly as possible, and let the new GM make the decisions on Judge and Jones.


Great post! Unfortunately, this is where we are. As much as I am anti Judge & Jones (I've see more than enough to form an opinion), I agree, the new GM should be allowed to give the thumbs or thumbs down to Judge & Jones.
RE: The Giants do not need to make the call on the 5th year option  
Thegratefulhead : 11/17/2021 5:34 pm : link
In comment 15456781 arniefez said:
Quote:
until after the draft. 2022 draft 4/28-4/30. 5th year option deadline 5/2/22. So it's a non issue until after free agency and the draft.

Someone compared Daniel Jones to Jacob deGrom to say you can't judge a player by won loss record? That beats Tony can do things OBJ couldn't. By quite a large margin actually.

If Daniel Jones' peripherals matched Jacob deGrom's we would all be celebrating the next great Giants QB instead of hoping they replace him.
I thought the same thing about the DeGrom Comment. If Daniel Jones QBR was as good as DeGrom's WhIP, no one would be complaining about Jones.
Monday on TMKS  
Scooter185 : 11/17/2021 6:42 pm : link
Steve Young said that the Brown's absolutely should move on from Mayfield before he'll never be the guy to get them to the promised land and that more now than ever before in the history of the NFL, teams need to have a great (not servicable, not ok, -great) QB to have a chance at a SB title.

The Giants are in the same boat and should absolutely be looking to upgrade at the position as early as this draft. But if they're not in love with anyone then a bridge QB works for the 22 season
RE: RE: RE: Seems pretty clear to me...  
giantstock : 11/17/2021 11:39 pm : link
In comment 15456689 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 15456679 giantstock said:


Quote:




OK genius. By what objective measure has Jones been good? Not one game, not just his rookie year. A career based stat that objectively identifies that Jones has the goods.

BY EVERY OBJECTIVE MEASURE, JONES IS JAG.

Fact.


"Objective measure?" IS there really an Objective measure in this case?

Because if we're going to talk "Objectively" let's talk about the following?

1-- We have one of the biggest moron GM's that we've ever had, right? In fact the moron admitted that he tried to win and rebuild at the same time for a team any objective and knowledgeable fan knew was going to suck, right?

2--- Objectively, is Judge a lock as a coach?

3-- Objectively, how is our OC, Garrett? He's done a good job? Fair? Objectively how would you rate him?

4-- For two years now we've featured primarily backup RB's, right?

5-- For the past two years we've had pathetic Tight Ends, completely / grossly incompetent, right?

6—For 2020 our WRs were amongst the worst in getting separation and over they were a shitty core, right?

7—This year our top WR’s have been mostly hurt – missing a large % of the games, right?

8—Last year amongst the top 2 or 3 worst OLINES in all of football.

9—This year prior to Raider game according to PFF - Giants OL had 25th rating vs run and 30th against the pass.

10—So with all these factors can you explain how your “objective measurements” would’ve shown that Tannehill would’ve been much better during his 1st three years vs what Jones is doing now?

11- DO you know what Tannehill’s QBR rating was when he was 30 with Miami in 2018? It was 33.2. Isn’t it true then that you’re supposed “Objective Measurements” would be spewing the same nonsense back in 2018?
RE: RE: The Giants do not need to make the call on the 5th year option  
giantstock : 11/17/2021 11:43 pm : link
In comment 15456790 Thegratefulhead said:
[quote] In comment 15456781 arniefez said:


Quote:


until after the draft. 2022 draft 4/28-4/30. 5th year option deadline 5/2/22. So it's a non issue until after free agency and the draft.

Someone compared Daniel Jones to Jacob deGrom to say you can't judge a player by won loss record? That beats Tony can do things OBJ couldn't. By quite a large margin actually.

If Daniel Jones' peripherals matched Jacob deGrom's we would all be celebrating the next great Giants QB instead of hoping they replace him.

I thought the same thing about the DeGrom Comment. If Daniel Jones QBR was as good as DeGrom's WhIP, no one would be complaining about Jones. [/quote

Si it's NOT all about wins and losses then, right?

So why do you bring it up as a defining stat?

You can't have it both ways here.
RE: Monday on TMKS  
giantstock : 11/18/2021 12:01 am : link
In comment 15456838 Scooter185 said:
Quote:
Steve Young said that the Brown's absolutely should move on from Mayfield before he'll never be the guy to get them to the promised land and that more now than ever before in the history of the NFL, teams need to have a great (not servicable, not ok, -great) QB to have a chance at a SB title.



So Tannehill is not a great QB so Tennessee should just forget about the season and dump Tannehill?

SO their 2019 season meant nothing too when they got to AFC Championship?

And in the Super Bowl with San Fran and Jimmy G - they shouldn't have even bothered to show up?

And Philly beating Pats with a backup QB, beating Brady and Belchick, -- but as you say only "great" QB's can win, right?

Not too much selective memory, eh? You guys are making this too easy.
RE: Monday on TMKS  
chick310 : 11/18/2021 8:48 am : link
In comment 15456838 Scooter185 said:
Quote:
Steve Young said that the Brown's absolutely should move on from Mayfield before he'll never be the guy to get them to the promised land and that more now than ever before in the history of the NFL, teams need to have a great (not servicable, not ok, -great) QB to have a chance at a SB title.

The Giants are in the same boat and should absolutely be looking to upgrade at the position as early as this draft. But if they're not in love with anyone then a bridge QB works for the 22 season


Scooter - yes, but that's a very convenient statement by Young to spout off since it's fairly apparent there are far less "great" QBs around than NFL teams.

And let's be fair, a lot of teams (like the Browns and Giants) may look around for an upgrade each year but they either 1) don't see or believe it 2) don't want to risk the capital or 3) are conservative and stay the course. We as fans don't know the real conversations on the inside.

Bridge QBs may sound fine for fans on a message board but that job to delay trying to win each year still has to be sold to a lot of constituents, internal and external.
RE: RE: Monday on TMKS  
Scooter185 : 11/18/2021 9:20 am : link
In comment 15457093 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 15456838 Scooter185 said:


Quote:


Steve Young said that the Brown's absolutely should move on from Mayfield before he'll never be the guy to get them to the promised land and that more now than ever before in the history of the NFL, teams need to have a great (not servicable, not ok, -great) QB to have a chance at a SB title.





So Tannehill is not a great QB so Tennessee should just forget about the season and dump Tannehill?

SO their 2019 season meant nothing too when they got to AFC Championship?

And in the Super Bowl with San Fran and Jimmy G - they shouldn't have even bothered to show up?

And Philly beating Pats with a backup QB, beating Brady and Belchick, -- but as you say only "great" QB's can win, right?

Not too much selective memory, eh? You guys are making this too easy.


Hey, take it up with Steve Young. Who, if I remember correctly was hailed as a top authority on QBs recently because he said nice things about Daniel Jones

In comment 15457169 chick310 said:
Quote:
In comment 15456838 Scooter185 said:


Quote:


Steve Young said that the Brown's absolutely should move on from Mayfield before he'll never be the guy to get them to the promised land and that more now than ever before in the history of the NFL, teams need to have a great (not servicable, not ok, -great) QB to have a chance at a SB title.

The Giants are in the same boat and should absolutely be looking to upgrade at the position as early as this draft. But if they're not in love with anyone then a bridge QB works for the 22 season



Scooter - yes, but that's a very convenient statement by Young to spout off since it's fairly apparent there are far less "great" QBs around than NFL teams.

And let's be fair, a lot of teams (like the Browns and Giants) may look around for an upgrade each year but they either 1) don't see or believe it 2) don't want to risk the capital or 3) are conservative and stay the course. We as fans don't know the real conversations on the inside.

Bridge QBs may sound fine for fans on a message board but that job to delay trying to win each year still has to be sold to a lot of constituents, internal and external.


And staying the course wouldn't be delaying trying to win?
Yes it could be. I was just offering up that a forced path  
chick310 : 11/18/2021 9:37 am : link
with low chance at success is also not a better solution.

Right, wrong or indifferent NFL Front Offices don't all work on the same time line with their decisions as fans would, or former NFL greats with a mic in their hand.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Seems pretty clear to me...  
Thegratefulhead : 11/18/2021 11:26 am : link
In comment 15457084 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 15456689 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 15456679 giantstock said:


Quote:




OK genius. By what objective measure has Jones been good? Not one game, not just his rookie year. A career based stat that objectively identifies that Jones has the goods.

BY EVERY OBJECTIVE MEASURE, JONES IS JAG.

Fact.



"Objective measure?" IS there really an Objective measure in this case?

Because if we're going to talk "Objectively" let's talk about the following?

1-- We have one of the biggest moron GM's that we've ever had, right? In fact the moron admitted that he tried to win and rebuild at the same time for a team any objective and knowledgeable fan knew was going to suck, right?

2--- Objectively, is Judge a lock as a coach?

3-- Objectively, how is our OC, Garrett? He's done a good job? Fair? Objectively how would you rate him?

4-- For two years now we've featured primarily backup RB's, right?

5-- For the past two years we've had pathetic Tight Ends, completely / grossly incompetent, right?

6—For 2020 our WRs were amongst the worst in getting separation and over they were a shitty core, right?

7—This year our top WR’s have been mostly hurt – missing a large % of the games, right?

8—Last year amongst the top 2 or 3 worst OLINES in all of football.

9—This year prior to Raider game according to PFF - Giants OL had 25th rating vs run and 30th against the pass.

10—So with all these factors can you explain how your “objective measurements” would’ve shown that Tannehill would’ve been much better during his 1st three years vs what Jones is doing now?

11- DO you know what Tannehill’s QBR rating was when he was 30 with Miami in 2018? It was 33.2. Isn’t it true then that you’re supposed “Objective Measurements” would be spewing the same nonsense back in 2018?
Thank you for clarifying you have no idea what objective measures are and have no arguments to make that Daniel Jones has the goods. You have subjectivity to explain his pitiful lack of production. We no longer need to converse about this as it would be a waste of time.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Seems pretty clear to me...  
Section331 : 11/18/2021 11:37 am : link
In comment 15457084 giantstock said:
Quote:


11- DO you know what Tannehill’s QBR rating was when he was 30 with Miami in 2018? It was 33.2. Isn’t it true then that you’re supposed “Objective Measurements” would be spewing the same nonsense back in 2018?


If you're pulling out one year of Tannehill's career, I'd hardly call that an "objective measurement", it sounds pretty subjective to me. In years 2-4 in Miami, Tannehill averaged over 4,000 yards and 25 TD's. If Jones were producing at that level, we wouldn't be talking about replacing him.
What I don't understand is how  
Now Mike in MD : 11/18/2021 12:45 pm : link
people can simultaneously say SOlder is the worst OT in football (rightfully), Peart is terrible right now, Engram is a terrible TE, and Galloday and SS are china dolls who contribute nothing, but then also say DJ is terrible and isn't elevating the offense.

Name a team with worse OTs than the Giants since AT went down. You can't. Solder is an absolute train wreck. He's not just bad. We could almost function with bad. He's tragic. Peart has not been much better, but I'll let him slide because he was a project. I think many of you would do well to watch some of the OL reviews by Skinner. It's laughable how poor this OL is without AT.

Nevermind that our starting LG was cut by the Dolphins and the OC is considered a 1st round bust.

Name a team with worse WRs since Galloday, Toney and SS got injured. We are trotting out two guys who were cut in Ross and Johnson.

Name more than 5 teams with a worse run game. We average 3.9 yards per carry. Take out Jones' runs, I would guess we'd average 3.4 yards a carry or less. Between the OL run blocking and the fact that Booker is not a game breaking running back, teams can sell out to defend against the pass.

I don't know whether DJ is the answer. I see things I like and sometimes I see things I don't like, but for the life of me how any says they can say with any certitude that DJ is bad with an awful OL, bad WRs, and zero threat of a run game is beyond me.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Seems pretty clear to me...  
giantstock : 11/18/2021 1:06 pm : link
In comment 15457380 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 15457084 giantstock said:


Quote:


In comment 15456689 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 15456679 giantstock said:


Quote:




OK genius. By what objective measure has Jones been good? Not one game, not just his rookie year. A career based stat that objectively identifies that Jones has the goods.

BY EVERY OBJECTIVE MEASURE, JONES IS JAG.

Fact.



"Objective measure?" IS there really an Objective measure in this case?

Because if we're going to talk "Objectively" let's talk about the following?

1-- We have one of the biggest moron GM's that we've ever had, right? In fact the moron admitted that he tried to win and rebuild at the same time for a team any objective and knowledgeable fan knew was going to suck, right?

2--- Objectively, is Judge a lock as a coach?

3-- Objectively, how is our OC, Garrett? He's done a good job? Fair? Objectively how would you rate him?

4-- For two years now we've featured primarily backup RB's, right?

5-- For the past two years we've had pathetic Tight Ends, completely / grossly incompetent, right?

6—For 2020 our WRs were amongst the worst in getting separation and over they were a shitty core, right?

7—This year our top WR’s have been mostly hurt – missing a large % of the games, right?

8—Last year amongst the top 2 or 3 worst OLINES in all of football.

9—This year prior to Raider game according to PFF - Giants OL had 25th rating vs run and 30th against the pass.

10—So with all these factors can you explain how your “objective measurements” would’ve shown that Tannehill would’ve been much better during his 1st three years vs what Jones is doing now?

11- DO you know what Tannehill’s QBR rating was when he was 30 with Miami in 2018? It was 33.2. Isn’t it true then that you’re supposed “Objective Measurements” would be spewing the same nonsense back in 2018?

Thank you for clarifying you have no idea what objective measures are and have no arguments to make that Daniel Jones has the goods. You have subjectivity to explain his pitiful lack of production. We no longer need to converse about this as it would be a waste of time.
\

Thank you talking about stats that you don't understand. It's a good laugh.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Seems pretty clear to me...  
giantstock : 11/18/2021 1:12 pm : link
In comment 15457396 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 15457084 giantstock said:


Quote:




11- DO you know what Tannehill’s QBR rating was when he was 30 with Miami in 2018? It was 33.2. Isn’t it true then that you’re supposed “Objective Measurements” would be spewing the same nonsense back in 2018?



If you're pulling out one year of Tannehill's career, I'd hardly call that an "objective measurement", it sounds pretty subjective to me. In years 2-4 in Miami, Tannehill averaged over 4,000 yards and 25 TD's. If Jones were producing at that level, we wouldn't be talking about replacing him.


One year of Tannehill's career? Just "One year?" Seriously?

In 2019 he was ranked 9th as a QBR. That sucks?

In 2020 he was ranked 4th as a QBR. That sucks?

In 2021 he was ranked 8th as a QBR. That sucks?

So when some posters on here slam Jones with QBR - the stat counts? But when it's used to show a player has bene pretty good and might prove favorable for Jones in the future then all of sudden those same stats don't count?

Yeah sure okay. Not too hypocritical/ bias, are we?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Seems pretty clear to me...  
Section331 : 11/18/2021 1:18 pm : link
In comment 15457502 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 15457396 Section331 said:


Quote:


In comment 15457084 giantstock said:


Quote:




11- DO you know what Tannehill’s QBR rating was when he was 30 with Miami in 2018? It was 33.2. Isn’t it true then that you’re supposed “Objective Measurements” would be spewing the same nonsense back in 2018?



If you're pulling out one year of Tannehill's career, I'd hardly call that an "objective measurement", it sounds pretty subjective to me. In years 2-4 in Miami, Tannehill averaged over 4,000 yards and 25 TD's. If Jones were producing at that level, we wouldn't be talking about replacing him.



One year of Tannehill's career? Just "One year?" Seriously?

In 2019 he was ranked 9th as a QBR. That sucks?

In 2020 he was ranked 4th as a QBR. That sucks?

In 2021 he was ranked 8th as a QBR. That sucks?

So when some posters on here slam Jones with QBR - the stat counts? But when it's used to show a player has bene pretty good and might prove favorable for Jones in the future then all of sudden those same stats don't count?

Yeah sure okay. Not too hypocritical/ bias, are we?


Yes, just one year. You didn't mention 2019, 2020 or 2021, not to mention 2014, '15, and '16. Look, I didn't bring up QBR, you did. But if you're going to use Tannehill's QBR to make a point, maybe using his worst season (by far) isn't the most "objective" way of doing that.

But I wouldn't want to be hypocritical.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Seems pretty clear to me...  
giantstock : 11/18/2021 1:19 pm : link
In comment 15457396 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 15457084 giantstock said:


Quote:




11- DO you know what Tannehill’s QBR rating was when he was 30 with Miami in 2018? It was 33.2. Isn’t it true then that you’re supposed “Objective Measurements” would be spewing the same nonsense back in 2018?



If you're pulling out one year of Tannehill's career, I'd hardly call that an "objective measurement", it sounds pretty subjective to me. In years 2-4 in Miami, Tannehill averaged over 4,000 yards and 25 TD's. If Jones were producing at that level, we wouldn't be talking about replacing him.


In reagrds ot Miami, whne you use the phrase "If Jones were producing at that level, we wouldn't be talking about replacing him",

Wehn you refer to "we" many have used QBR to rip inot Jones. Now you want ot ignore it?

Here are Ryan's QBR stats:

2012 48.4
2013 48.4
2014 59.3
2015 45.6
2016 48.6
2018 33.2

Daniel Jones 1st 2 years are 55.7 and 61.4. This year so far 44.7. But now QBR doesn't count at all, right?

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Seems pretty clear to me...  
Section331 : 11/18/2021 1:24 pm : link
In comment 15457512 giantstock said:
Quote:


In reagrds ot Miami, whne you use the phrase "If Jones were producing at that level, we wouldn't be talking about replacing him",

Wehn you refer to "we" many have used QBR to rip inot Jones. Now you want ot ignore it?

Here are Ryan's QBR stats:

2012 48.4
2013 48.4
2014 59.3
2015 45.6
2016 48.6
2018 33.2

Daniel Jones 1st 2 years are 55.7 and 61.4. This year so far 44.7. But now QBR doesn't count at all, right?


Again, you are the one who brought up QBR, I think it is a flawed stat. Somewhat useful when taken in context, but far from the final barometer of a QB. I repeat, if Jones averaged 4,000+ yards and 25 TD's over his 2nd-4th years, no one would be complaining about him.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Seems pretty clear to me...  
giantstock : 11/18/2021 1:25 pm : link
In comment 15457509 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 15457502 giantstock said:


Quote:


In comment 15457396 Section331 said:


Quote:


In comment 15457084 giantstock said:


Quote:




11- DO you know what Tannehill’s QBR rating was when he was 30 with Miami in 2018? It was 33.2. Isn’t it true then that you’re supposed “Objective Measurements” would be spewing the same nonsense back in 2018?



If you're pulling out one year of Tannehill's career, I'd hardly call that an "objective measurement", it sounds pretty subjective to me. In years 2-4 in Miami, Tannehill averaged over 4,000 yards and 25 TD's. If Jones were producing at that level, we wouldn't be talking about replacing him.



One year of Tannehill's career? Just "One year?" Seriously?

In 2019 he was ranked 9th as a QBR. That sucks?

In 2020 he was ranked 4th as a QBR. That sucks?

In 2021 he was ranked 8th as a QBR. That sucks?

So when some posters on here slam Jones with QBR - the stat counts? But when it's used to show a player has bene pretty good and might prove favorable for Jones in the future then all of sudden those same stats don't count?

Yeah sure okay. Not too hypocritical/ bias, are we?



Yes, just one year. You didn't mention 2019, 2020 or 2021, not to mention 2014, '15, and '16. Look, I didn't bring up QBR, you did. But if you're going to use Tannehill's QBR to make a point, maybe using his worst season (by far) isn't the most "objective" way of doing that.

But I wouldn't want to be hypocritical.


What do you mean "YES" ONE YEAR??? I just showed you THREE!

I was showing how BAD he was in one year. How do oyu think posters like YOU and others on here would react ot a 33.2? Fans were already meltdown down with Jones for 2019 and 2020 and what would 33.2 mean?

The fact that you want to bury your head in the sand with doing a little easy research on Jones vs Tannehill is not my problem. If you are too lazy to see what's objective -- it's not my problem to explain it you - that Jones has bene near equal to Tannehill this early. Look at number 10 it clearly talks of 1st 3 years. That's what I initially said.

=================
10—So with all these factors can you explain how your “objective measurements” would’ve shown that Tannehill would’ve been much better during his 1st three years vs what Jones is doing now?
==============================
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Seems pretty clear to me...  
giantstock : 11/18/2021 1:31 pm : link
In comment 15457520 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 15457512 giantstock said:


Quote:




In reagrds ot Miami, whne you use the phrase "If Jones were producing at that level, we wouldn't be talking about replacing him",

Wehn you refer to "we" many have used QBR to rip inot Jones. Now you want ot ignore it?

Here are Ryan's QBR stats:

2012 48.4
2013 48.4
2014 59.3
2015 45.6
2016 48.6
2018 33.2

Daniel Jones 1st 2 years are 55.7 and 61.4. This year so far 44.7. But now QBR doesn't count at all, right?




Again, you are the one who brought up QBR, I think it is a flawed stat. Somewhat useful when taken in context, but far from the final barometer of a QB. I repeat, if Jones averaged 4,000+ yards and 25 TD's over his 2nd-4th years, no one would be complaining about him.


Yet when people complain about Jones when they use QBR you have no problem using it?

Soi it is useful to use against Jones because you agree with their pov, but when it shows something else it's not useful at all, right?

My pov on Jones unlike all the nutjobs that proclaim he sucks - is that I'm with SY - wait and see more. Banks has even called him a franchise QB. SO if I use a stat to show he isn’t that bad compared to an early Tannehill while posters like BW show Jones sucks and uses QBR as a talking point--

you're suggesting I can't use it but he can? And I am in agreement with SY for wait and see and yet you have nutjobs like bw posting nonsense but he is credible?

The hypocrisy from many of you continues.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Seems pretty clear to me...  
Section331 : 11/18/2021 1:39 pm : link
In comment 15457521 giantstock said:
Quote:


What do you mean "YES" ONE YEAR??? I just showed you THREE!

I was showing how BAD he was in one year. How do oyu think posters like YOU and others on here would react ot a 33.2? Fans were already meltdown down with Jones for 2019 and 2020 and what would 33.2 mean?

The fact that you want to bury your head in the sand with doing a little easy research on Jones vs Tannehill is not my problem. If you are too lazy to see what's objective -- it's not my problem to explain it you - that Jones has bene near equal to Tannehill this early. Look at number 10 it clearly talks of 1st 3 years. That's what I initially said.

=================
10—So with all these factors can you explain how your “objective measurements” would’ve shown that Tannehill would’ve been much better during his 1st three years vs what Jones is doing now?
==============================


Don't be so fucking obtuse. My point was that your INITIAL post cherry-picked RT's worst year to make a point. The reality is that he was pretty good in Miami, but struggled with injuries his last 2 years there. He was already 30 and a new coaching staff decided to move on.

My "objective measurements" show that Tannehill was much better in his first 3 years than Jones has been:

2012 3,294 yds 13 TD's 12 INT's
2013 3,913/24/17
2014 4,045/27/12

2019 3,027/24/12
2020 2,943/10/11
2021 3,889/15/9 (projected)

And Jones's 2021 will have included a 17th start. Tannehill's numbers trended up in each of those early seasons, Jones has regressed markedly after a good rookie year. 25 TD passes in 2 years is simply unacceptable in today's NFL. You're free to think otherwise, but you'll be in the minority.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Seems pretty clear to me...  
Section331 : 11/18/2021 1:43 pm : link
In comment 15457530 giantstock said:
Quote:


Yet when people complain about Jones when they use QBR you have no problem using it?

Soi it is useful to use against Jones because you agree with their pov, but when it shows something else it's not useful at all, right?

My pov on Jones unlike all the nutjobs that proclaim he sucks - is that I'm with SY - wait and see more. Banks has even called him a franchise QB. SO if I use a stat to show he isn’t that bad compared to an early Tannehill while posters like BW show Jones sucks and uses QBR as a talking point--

you're suggesting I can't use it but he can? And I am in agreement with SY for wait and see and yet you have nutjobs like bw posting nonsense but he is credible?

The hypocrisy from many of you continues.


I have no idea what you're talking about. Point to where I responded positively to a QBR post. I think it's a horribly overused and misunderstood stat. And you can use whatever you want. My objection wasn't to you using QBR, it was for pulling one year out of the 10 Tannehill has been a pro. That is the exact opposite of "objective measurement".

THAT was my point, which I guess you missed entirely.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Seems pretty clear to me...  
giantstock : 11/18/2021 11:05 pm : link
In comment 15457542 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 15457530 giantstock said:


Quote:




Yet when people complain about Jones when they use QBR you have no problem using it?

Soi it is useful to use against Jones because you agree with their pov, but when it shows something else it's not useful at all, right?

My pov on Jones unlike all the nutjobs that proclaim he sucks - is that I'm with SY - wait and see more. Banks has even called him a franchise QB. SO if I use a stat to show he isn’t that bad compared to an early Tannehill while posters like BW show Jones sucks and uses QBR as a talking point--

you're suggesting I can't use it but he can? And I am in agreement with SY for wait and see and yet you have nutjobs like bw posting nonsense but he is credible?

The hypocrisy from many of you continues.



I have no idea what you're talking about. Point to where I responded positively to a QBR post. I think it's a horribly overused and misunderstood stat. And you can use whatever you want. My objection wasn't to you using QBR, it was for pulling one year out of the 10 Tannehill has been a pro. That is the exact opposite of "objective measurement".

THAT was my point, which I guess you missed entirely.


NOW you say "It's overused" yet kind of odd when the poster BW has used it to bash Jones- I can't recall you going after him stating that the stat is overused. I'm sure others that have blasted Jones did the same thing and liked the stat as well. But now all of sudden when it's used to support Jones it's no good?

And regarding another stat, we have another poster Go Terps who uses "wins and losses" as his top stat. He specifically cited that stat as evidence Jones has ot go. I don't seem to recall you bashing him for "over-using" that stat either.

You seem to have no problem people using the QBR stats and "the wins and losses stats" when it bashes Jones, right?

But when for example the QBR stat supports him in some manner then "You don't like the stat," right?

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Seems pretty clear to me...  
giantstock : 11/18/2021 11:24 pm : link
In comment 15457540 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 15457521 giantstock said:


Quote:




What do you mean "YES" ONE YEAR??? I just showed you THREE!

I was showing how BAD he was in one year. How do oyu think posters like YOU and others on here would react ot a 33.2? Fans were already meltdown down with Jones for 2019 and 2020 and what would 33.2 mean?

The fact that you want to bury your head in the sand with doing a little easy research on Jones vs Tannehill is not my problem. If you are too lazy to see what's objective -- it's not my problem to explain it you - that Jones has bene near equal to Tannehill this early. Look at number 10 it clearly talks of 1st 3 years. That's what I initially said.

=================
10—So with all these factors can you explain how your “objective measurements” would’ve shown that Tannehill would’ve been much better during his 1st three years vs what Jones is doing now?
==============================



Don't be so fucking obtuse. My point was that your INITIAL post cherry-picked RT's worst year to make a point. The reality is that he was pretty good in Miami, but struggled with injuries his last 2 years there. He was already 30 and a new coaching staff decided to move on.

My "objective measurements" show that Tannehill was much better in his first 3 years than Jones has been:

2012 3,294 yds 13 TD's 12 INT's
2013 3,913/24/17
2014 4,045/27/12

2019 3,027/24/12
2020 2,943/10/11
2021 3,889/15/9 (projected)

And Jones's 2021 will have included a 17th start. Tannehill's numbers trended up in each of those early seasons, Jones has regressed markedly after a good rookie year. 25 TD passes in 2 years is simply unacceptable in today's NFL. You're free to think otherwise, but you'll be in the minority.




Let me dumb it down for you again MORON.

I said that used the stat to HIGHLIGHT how morns like you would use the stat to bash Jones and I highlighted ONE SEASN to show what would happen if someone like Tannehill had THAT STAT on here or if Jones had a stat THAT pathetic.

Because you're too stupid to understand THAT"S WHY I highlighted the stat and are TRYING to DEFLECT Tannehill's QBR rating lower than Jones overall his 1st three years- it's not my problem.


I’m in "the minority?" Sure I'm in the minority on a chat board but again again we are talking ENGLISH here, right? I AGREE with SY that Jones is "wait and see." Banks has called Jones "A Franchise QB." These are the type of QUALITY that are more wait-and see types. Who do you have on your side? The idiot OP? And morons like Go Terps and BW? And because you find these idiots on a chat board that you clowns are supposed to be some kind of expert authority?

I'm the one with some points of reference like SY and think Banks might've gone too far but I'm still wait and see- and yet I'm the one that is obtuse because I'm listening to people that know far more than you and the other clowns?

You're such an idiot. And wtf do you know about QBR?
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