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| The Giants need to decide on Jones’ fifth-year option for the 2023 season by early May. That option is projected to cost $21.4 million. Jones’ cap hit is just $7.2 million this season, so exercising that option signals a serious commitment. If Jones’ performance doesn’t improve, the most pragmatic approach would be to decline the option and let Jones play out the final season of his rookie deal. His cap hit is just $8.4 million in 2022. That would maintain maximum flexibility, as the Giants could simply cut ties after next season if Jones doesn’t pan out. If Jones finally delivers in Year 4, the team could still retain him via the franchise tag or an extension, but that would be more costly than exercising the fifth-year option. |
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| It’s nearly impossible to envision a scenario where Joe Judge isn’t back for a third season as head coach. Maybe ownership would make a change if the Giants lose their final eight games, but even then, there would likely need to be major locker-room issues to prompt a move. Mara has made it clear that it’s important to him that a coach doesn’t lose the locker room. The team hasn’t quit on Judge in either of his two seasons despite slow starts, so there’s no reason to expect a second-half collapse. Judge needs to figure out a way to avoid such poor starts, but expect the Giants to give the 39-year-old first-time head coach the opportunity to learn from some of his early missteps. |
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| If Judge is retained, that makes things stickier on the general manager front. Gettleman has proven to have surprising staying power, but it seems impossible that ownership could sell a fourth losing season to a restless fan base. So unless there’s a dramatic second-half turnaround, the Giants will likely be in the market for a new GM. For the same reason that keeping Gettleman would be untenable, it’s hard to foresee an internal promotion. Promoting a lieutenant from Gettleman’s unsuccessful tenure would be a head-scratcher. If the Giants go outside of the organization, they’ll need to find a candidate who is compatible with Judge. The question is how much weight they put on Judge during the GM search. Do they prioritize a candidate with ties to Judge, such as Titans director of player personnel Monti Ossenfort, or do they just find the best option who will sign on to work with Judge? That’s the downside of having a coach and general manager on separate tracks. If the Giants finish with a similar record to last season, Judge’s seat will be heating up at the same time a new general manager is coming on board. It’s a potentially messy corner the Giants have backed themselves into by sticking with Gettleman. |
I've said this like 10x before and everyone says no its guaranteed... which is news to me so idk
RE: Jones's option - I disagree that the most pragmatic approach is to let Jones play out the season at $8.4M. A more pragmatic scenario is to trade him and use whatever pick(s) you get for him to help rebuild the roster with young cost-controlled talent. If the draft yields a quarterback (be it in the first round or elsewhere) then great. If not, the FA market will have options cheaper than $8.4M that will provide similar level of play at the position. That approach is win/win: gain something for Jones, reduce the cap hit at QB.
Although no reason a new GM couldn't be found from the outside that has similar vision to Judge. Also not a priority the guy has ties to Judge either. But there has to be some compatibility, not best of buddies but mutual respect as to what the plan and the steps to get there...
And, to me, that is the BEST idea if it's still unclear that Jones is the answer after this year.
& no, I'm not Dan's mother or wife. Haha.
And, to me, that is the BEST idea if it's still unclear that Jones is the answer after this year.
Ah and in there is the Catch 22. If he is good enough to keep, he gets the best trade value. If he is not good enough to keep, then his trade value is nada.
If you don't go 1st round QB next year(2022), you are probably putting off QB until 2023.
Giants are in a bind because Jones is just not clearly stepping up or clearly incompetent.
Right now Jones is one of the least productive starting quarterbacks in the NFL. I'm not saying that to knock him; it's just a fact. What is the risk in trading him?
Right now Jones is one of the least productive starting quarterbacks in the NFL. I'm not saying that to knock him; it's just a fact. What is the risk in trading him?
If he is worth nothing as you say, you will hardly get anything for him. Plus the contract you are trying to avoid is an anchor in the water for the receiving team. I think he is worth keeping on the team. You can draft aQB if you want, I wouldn’t, but trading jones doesn’t make any sense at all.
I thought you were cheering for the Giants to lose out to create an embarrassing situation so the ownership on down is the embarrassed into a full rebuild. I don’t share that rooting to lose bs but you should by your logic want jones around, you know, to complete the utter embarrassment.
If they do hire a GM from the outside who identifies the candidates? Judge? Serious question.
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It's an oversight not to mention trading Jones after this year as a legitimate choice and option.
And, to me, that is the BEST idea if it's still unclear that Jones is the answer after this year.
Ah and in there is the Catch 22. If he is good enough to keep, he gets the best trade value. If he is not good enough to keep, then his trade value is nada.
If you don't go 1st round QB next year(2022), you are probably putting off QB until 2023.
Giants are in a bind because Jones is just not clearly stepping up or clearly incompetent.
Not sure if you were being sarcastic here, but Giants are not in a bind at all.
They can spend rest of the season on assessing Jones and then determine if there is a better and/or cheaper option available in free agency AND the draft.
And if not, he is still pretty cheap...
An arranged marriage is my fear (Jason Garrett cough cough)
He would be embarrassed beyond belief. As long as they DON’T sign him to a second contract, that’s ok.
Oh and if you think you will get a viable replacement for under 8 million - good luck.
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In comment 15455960 bw in dc said:
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It's an oversight not to mention trading Jones after this year as a legitimate choice and option.
And, to me, that is the BEST idea if it's still unclear that Jones is the answer after this year.
Ah and in there is the Catch 22. If he is good enough to keep, he gets the best trade value. If he is not good enough to keep, then his trade value is nada.
If you don't go 1st round QB next year(2022), you are probably putting off QB until 2023.
Giants are in a bind because Jones is just not clearly stepping up or clearly incompetent.
Not sure if you were being sarcastic here, but Giants are not in a bind at all.
They can spend rest of the season on assessing Jones and then determine if there is a better and/or cheaper option available in free agency AND the draft.
And if not, he is still pretty cheap...
Unless he improves by year's end they are in a bind.
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It's an oversight not to mention trading Jones after this year as a legitimate choice and option.
And, to me, that is the BEST idea if it's still unclear that Jones is the answer after this year.
Ah and in there is the Catch 22. If he is good enough to keep, he gets the best trade value. If he is not good enough to keep, then his trade value is nada.
If you don't go 1st round QB next year(2022), you are probably putting off QB until 2023.
Giants are in a bind because Jones is just not clearly stepping up or clearly incompetent.
Jets got a second round deal/package for Darnold. Jones is better than Darnold right now.
Personally, I would take a second for Jones in a NY minute. And if we get can better than the Darnold...brilliant.
It really is the smart move.
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In comment 15455979 section125 said:
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In comment 15455960 bw in dc said:
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It's an oversight not to mention trading Jones after this year as a legitimate choice and option.
And, to me, that is the BEST idea if it's still unclear that Jones is the answer after this year.
Ah and in there is the Catch 22. If he is good enough to keep, he gets the best trade value. If he is not good enough to keep, then his trade value is nada.
If you don't go 1st round QB next year(2022), you are probably putting off QB until 2023.
Giants are in a bind because Jones is just not clearly stepping up or clearly incompetent.
Not sure if you were being sarcastic here, but Giants are not in a bind at all.
They can spend rest of the season on assessing Jones and then determine if there is a better and/or cheaper option available in free agency AND the draft.
And if not, he is still pretty cheap...
Unless he improves by year's end they are in a bind.
Care to explain why?
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The good thing is that the next GM-in all likelihood-will be from the outside & will have no ties to DJ & thus won't think twice about moving on if he chooses to do.
If they do hire a GM from the outside who identifies the candidates? Judge? Serious question.
If they're really all in on Judgetheyd be wise to weigh his input heavily.
I’m keeping the same eye on Jason Garrett.
Trubisky signed with Buffalo for $2.5M
Jones is very similar to Trubisky.
Picking up Jones' 5th year is not *very likely*. Especially if you think there will be a new GM.
Right now Jones is one of the least productive starting quarterbacks in the NFL. I'm not saying that to knock him; it's just a fact. What is the risk in trading him?
You know what's also a fact? Jones has had absolute dogshit to work with on the OL and skill positions (and when he has had talent, it's been sitting on the sidelines most games), thus it's been pretty much impossible to fairly judge him.
But you - and others - conveniently overlook that.
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In comment 15455995 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15455979 section125 said:
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In comment 15455960 bw in dc said:
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It's an oversight not to mention trading Jones after this year as a legitimate choice and option.
And, to me, that is the BEST idea if it's still unclear that Jones is the answer after this year.
Ah and in there is the Catch 22. If he is good enough to keep, he gets the best trade value. If he is not good enough to keep, then his trade value is nada.
If you don't go 1st round QB next year(2022), you are probably putting off QB until 2023.
Giants are in a bind because Jones is just not clearly stepping up or clearly incompetent.
Not sure if you were being sarcastic here, but Giants are not in a bind at all.
They can spend rest of the season on assessing Jones and then determine if there is a better and/or cheaper option available in free agency AND the draft.
And if not, he is still pretty cheap...
Unless he improves by year's end they are in a bind.
Care to explain why?
I already did. Yeah, they can carry him next year if he doesn't get his shit together by the end of this year. But then they either have to draft a QB in 2022 or wait a year to 2023. If he does not finish well, who will trade for him?
They have to decide to take the 5th year option by May. If he does not play well by the end of the year, they most likely will not take the 5th year(especially if DG is gone) and he is a FA at the end of 2022.
If he gets his shit together, then they are fine.
They have options and can go in numerous directions...
1. How many teams want to trade for a quarterback and what are they willing to offer in return? Glennon is also on a one-year flyer, meaning that we would likely have no active quarterbacks on the roster.
2. Who are you willing to sign to fill the void for the next starter? How much money are you willing to give up, given we don't have a lot of spending power
3. How do you make sure the next quarterback or two (if we draft) won't get thrown into a meat grinder, because whoever takes Jones' place still has to deal with a not-so-great offense.
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By the end of this season they will have played 49 games over 3 seasons since they drafted him. In today's NFL that is a lifetime and more than enough sample size to assess whether or not it's worth moving forward with him.
Right now Jones is one of the least productive starting quarterbacks in the NFL. I'm not saying that to knock him; it's just a fact. What is the risk in trading him?
You know what's also a fact? Jones has had absolute dogshit to work with on the OL and skill positions (and when he has had talent, it's been sitting on the sidelines most games), thus it's been pretty much impossible to fairly judge him.
But you - and others - conveniently overlook that.
No one's overlooked that. I've said many times the OL is brutal.
Fairly judging him is irrelevant. The concept of fair doesn't apply. That's pee wee league super fan bullshit.
I do not expect the Giants to do that. I expect Jones back next year because of what was said above: optics and a misplaced sense of fairness will likely make the decisions. After all, the Giants are a poorly run organization.
The top paid QBs generally resign with the teams that drafted them and there is no such thing as home team discount in terms of the QB contracts (https://overthecap.com/contract-history/quarterback/). There are actually very few examples of QBs leaving the team that drafted them via free agency and getting paid more by the new team. Excluding trades and extensions, the only QBs to leave and get paid more in free agency are Peyton Manning, Kirk Cousins and Tom Brady. Jones is no where near the same level of QB as these 3 guys. Simply put, unless Jones' production explodes over next 8 weeks the Giants should decline the 5th year option.
I am guessing that Mara and Giants FO will decide to exercise Jones' 5th year option b/c of course they will, but there is no rational reason to think the Giants have to do it or end up paying more for average QB production. They will more than likely pay less for a veteran QB or draft another young QB to replace Jones.
Let it play out these next 8. Never know what could happen, but if it holds serve I’d think the giants would not use the option year but who the hell knows. Who’s GM who’s the HC we don’t know shit yet.
That's how the Giants do business. Shit if recent history is any guide the last game or two are the only ones that will matter from a decision making perspective.
Don’t throw good money after bad.
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That's how the Giants do business. Shit if recent history is any guide the last game or two are the only ones that will matter from a decision making perspective.
Mara has probably fired more people the last 8 years than any other owner. I highly doubt some lipstick on a pig type wins will help anyone but ok. I was saying the season is halfway over. 8 games to play that matter. That’s reality.
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In comment 15456099 djm said:
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That's how the Giants do business. Shit if recent history is any guide the last game or two are the only ones that will matter from a decision making perspective.
Mara has probably fired more people the last 8 years than any other owner. I highly doubt some lipstick on a pig type wins will help anyone but ok. I was saying the season is halfway over. 8 games to play that matter. That’s reality.
totally right most owners stick with Shurmur. especially having a rookie qb.
Same shit, different year. Meaningless beyond obscuring the ability to self scout creating a false sense of optimism with the current group.
Same shit, different year. Meaningless beyond obscuring the ability to self scout creating a false sense of optimism with the current group.
We're entering the nightmare scenario. Investing years and maybe millions in the hope of a low probability event - Daniel Jones suddenly becoming an elite starter in year 3 or later.
Only if the GM is an internal hire and has seen all he needs to see of Jones. That’s really doubtful since Jones is a cheap pick for a year.
Get Jones a better OL - and position players that aren't mostly hurt- he'll probably play better.
If Jones is great the next two months, maybe the decision gets harder. As things stand, it’s important to keep the books clean for 2023. 2022 is already a mess - such a mess that I might keep Gettleman on as a lame duck, with restricted authority, so a new GM can come into a better situation. It’s quite an achievement to be as cap-strapped as the Giants are with a cheap QB and a crappy roster.
Agree that Judge will be back provided the team shows improvement along with some wins for the rest of the season.
I think its more likely a internal GM is promoted because Mara has said several times the Giants have made very significant changes to their processes. If they go outside it will be someone who will work within the existing structure.
I think next year is the critical year for Judge. The team will have to be in the playoffs or right in the mix and it will have to be clear that the QB is holding the team back. If that is not the case then I think the Giants blow things up and a total outside hire is brought who is given control.
Recall many on the fence with Jones (and the current GM mind you) suggesting a lot hinged this season with him. Now it's a lot hinges on the next 8 games...as if this is some sort of countdown?
Wait for it..."A lot hinges on this final game of the season with Jones. Even though the Giants have been eliminated from playoffs for several weeks now, Jones' future with the team could hinge on his performance today."
great...
They have options and can go in numerous directions...
Ah, I see. So Jones is in a bind, but the Giants aren't...No shit Sherlock, the Giants have options, but are any of then good options?
Let's see what they are if he continues undistinguished:
Cut him - Save $$$
Trade him - get a 5th(?) rnd pick
Let him walk - hope for a comp pick
Keep him and exercise 5th yr option at $20 mill with the team close to the cap(maybe)
I guess you are right - just say fuck it and start over.
My favorite comment on this post.
Agree that Judge will be back provided the team shows improvement along with some wins for the rest of the season.
I think its more likely a internal GM is promoted because Mara has said several times the Giants have made very significant changes to their processes. If they go outside it will be someone who will work within the existing structure.
I think next year is the critical year for Judge. The team will have to be in the playoffs or right in the mix and it will have to be clear that the QB is holding the team back. If that is not the case then I think the Giants blow things up and a total outside hire is brought who is given control.
I struggle with this line of thinking on Judge.
You preface that the franchise has 1) little faith in Jones because they don't exercise the option, and 2) the GM is replaced presumably because he can't build a good enough roster. But then it's up to Judge to somehow make them a playoff team (or in the mix) with this as his material in 2022 or he's out?...not logical.
Judge should get replaced if he cannot coach the games properly, good players get worse and/or start dogging it, he loses the lockerroom, they look unprepared, etc. These are the things on him, not the roster he was largely provided with probably just some minimal input.
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distinguish himself. The Giants could alleviate that for him by not realizing it and continuing to pay him to play QB, but then they are just taking on that bind.
They have options and can go in numerous directions...
Ah, I see. So Jones is in a bind, but the Giants aren't...No shit Sherlock, the Giants have options, but are any of then good options?
Let's see what they are if he continues undistinguished:
Cut him - Save $$$
Trade him - get a 5th(?) rnd pick
Let him walk - hope for a comp pick
Keep him and exercise 5th yr option at $20 mill with the team close to the cap(maybe)
I guess you are right - just say fuck it and start over.
No shit sherlock...what are you, in 3rd grade? Just because you keep missing it in creating a valid argument, don't blame me.
You said the Giants are in a bind if Jones doesn't improve...and I keep telling you they are not.
They picked a guy early in the draft, he doesn't become the guy but he is still under a rookie contract and his cost isn't a penalty next year if he stays on the roster or not. Or they can trade him for whatever as others have mentioned above and help even mitigate that cost further. Do you really think there is a shortage of QBs that will be available in FA or via trade to bridge the NYG until it finds the next promising guy in the Draft to put under center?
A new bind isn't created because it didn't work out with Jones, that's just a sunk cost. A bind would be if they keep creating new guaranteed monies on Jones because they cannot determine if he is the guy, or put up a larger long-term deal for him and he continues to not improve during it. Those would be new binds...
How are Judge, Petit and Abrams NOT running this show at this point?
This often extends to the GM with "He inherited the HC". Again short sighted.
And, to me, that is the BEST idea if it's still unclear that Jones is the answer after this year.
If they're not going to exercise his option (I'm not suggesting they won't), then trading Jones absolutely should be on the table.
This often extends to the GM with "He inherited the HC". Again short sighted.
Lines - got it, if Judge has significant input on the roster then I agree it changes the calculus and timing on his stay here.
However, we actually don't know how much "input" he had and where. I would suggest much less than is often mentioned here. Providing input isn't driving the roster build.
Further, I also can't reconcile that he actually has significant input but somehow that doesn't extend to his input on a "de facto" starting QB. Not logical.
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In comment 15456075 Jimmy Googs said:
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distinguish himself. The Giants could alleviate that for him by not realizing it and continuing to pay him to play QB, but then they are just taking on that bind.
They have options and can go in numerous directions...
Ah, I see. So Jones is in a bind, but the Giants aren't...No shit Sherlock, the Giants have options, but are any of then good options?
Let's see what they are if he continues undistinguished:
Cut him - Save $$$
Trade him - get a 5th(?) rnd pick
Let him walk - hope for a comp pick
Keep him and exercise 5th yr option at $20 mill with the team close to the cap(maybe)
I guess you are right - just say fuck it and start over.
No shit sherlock...what are you, in 3rd grade? Just because you keep missing it in creating a valid argument, don't blame me.
You said the Giants are in a bind if Jones doesn't improve...and I keep telling you they are not.
They picked a guy early in the draft, he doesn't become the guy but he is still under a rookie contract and his cost isn't a penalty next year if he stays on the roster or not. Or they can trade him for whatever as others have mentioned above and help even mitigate that cost further. Do you really think there is a shortage of QBs that will be available in FA or via trade to bridge the NYG until it finds the next promising guy in the Draft to put under center?
A new bind isn't created because it didn't work out with Jones, that's just a sunk cost. A bind would be if they keep creating new guaranteed monies on Jones because they cannot determine if he is the guy, or put up a larger long-term deal for him and he continues to not improve during it. Those would be new binds...
Ok, I got it. Jimmy is the only one that determines what is or is not a bind.
Isn't your last paragraph basically what I said?
But forget, You win.
And as I keep saying: I want Gettleman out of the building. Away from this roster.
Continuing to commit to Jones via time & new guaranteed money AND him not improving puts them in a bind. Then they are wasting time, money and passing on other alternatives.
hope this has been helpful...
Good read
Go Terps : 11/16/2021 6:12 pm : link : reply
...
RE: Jones's option - I disagree that the most pragmatic approach is to let Jones play out the season at $8.4M. A more pragmatic scenario is to trade him and use whatever pick(s) you get for him to help rebuild the roster with young cost-controlled talent. If the draft yields a quarterback (be it in the first round or elsewhere) then great. If not, the FA market will have options cheaper than $8.4M that will provide similar level of play at the position. That approach is win/win: gain something for Jones, reduce the cap hit at QB.
The only starting QBs making under $10M are on rookie contracts.
There are no decent vets making under $25M.
There may be cheaper options, but they probably don't lead to more wins and offer no upside.
I would not pick up the 5th year option. If Jones improves between now and the end of next season I'd consider signing him to a modest extension.
The cheapest and highest upside bet is to head into 2023 with a 2022 draft pick or 2023 rookie (or a much improved Jones). I don't think signing a vet does much to improve the team or trajectory.
Is there any world in which he isn't on the hotseat for next year? If he wants to hold on to this job, he conforms to the new GM, not the other way around.
We don't know where JJ falls on the totem pole in the player acquisition group. My view from the cheap seats (and the view of many last year sitting next to me up here in the nosebleed section) is that Judge got increased say as DG's stock fell. Hasn't exactly worked out so great. If the dynamic worked, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Judge gets reduced input in the new regime.
Or, maybe he didn't get much say, and this isn't his fault. In that case, his power arrangement remains the same when a new GM is brought in.
Next year's GM, whether it is DG or a different butt in the chair, is going to have limited ability to effect change. Keeping JJ makes for a handy scapegoat a year from now, giving the new GM full authority to create his own regime in a year when greater player movement is possible.
If Jones is great the next two months, maybe the decision gets harder. As things stand, it’s important to keep the books clean for 2023. 2022 is already a mess - such a mess that I might keep Gettleman on as a lame duck, with restricted authority, so a new GM can come into a better situation. It’s quite an achievement to be as cap-strapped as the Giants are with a cheap QB and a crappy roster.
Maybe your definition of what's a "persuasive argument" is bias?
Maybe he hasn't performed very well because his OL sucks, his Tight Ends suck, his number 1 RB and top WR's are consistently hurt?
So because you want to bury your head in the sand on these factors, the argument you then call it "unpersuasive?"
What makes you so convinced without-a-doubt that this guy can't be something like Tannehill? I'm not saying he will but based on above team factors on offense - there is the possibility. That's hwy you keep him UNLESS YOU KNOW you can get better.
Heavy SEC (Mckinney, Thomas, Olujari). Heavy secondary investment. Heavy special team focused additions.
Look closely at most of the FA additions. They have deep ties to Judge.
I find it hard to understand how anyone thinks that Judge has not had significant input into the roster other than QB which I am not certain where he stands.
Probably more often than you think.
Heavy SEC (Mckinney, Thomas, Olujari). Heavy secondary investment. Heavy special team focused additions.
Look closely at most of the FA additions. They have deep ties to Judge.
I find it hard to understand how anyone thinks that Judge has not had significant input into the roster other than QB which I am not certain where he stands.
Lines - you could be spot on and he does drive the bus more often that I suggested. We both don't know.
And the examples above aren't all that compelling. Some linkages but not anywhere close to a slam dunk. Good football players drafted when they should have been isn't a link. Other than Logan Ryan, what major free agent acquisition has a link to Judge.
No worries though, I see your point just have a different perspective on what constitutes "input" on the roster construction.
The leverage thing goes both ways. IF Jones ends up a guy they want to keep at a reasonable cost, but have already committed to the option, he isn't giving that up.
I agree completely. I started a thread last month on the scenarios. This was my view:
christian : 10/26/2021 3:55 pm : link
I think Jones will be the starting QB going into camp next year.
So let’s play this out, where they decline the 5th year option.
A) Jones shows management everything they need to prove he’s the guy
B) Jones shows management everything they need to prove he’s not
C) More ambiguity because of injuries, upheavals, etc.
So then:
A) If he’s the guy I’d wager he’s extended on a multi year deal, and if they cannot come to terms, he can be franchised
B) If he proves he’s not, they go their separate ways at no cost
C) If things are unclear they have a choice
I think the ~8M delta between the franchise tender and the 5th year option is a great insurance policy.
I don’t think there’s a good reason to not leave your options open.
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Good read
Go Terps : 11/16/2021 6:12 pm : link : reply
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RE: Jones's option - I disagree that the most pragmatic approach is to let Jones play out the season at $8.4M. A more pragmatic scenario is to trade him and use whatever pick(s) you get for him to help rebuild the roster with young cost-controlled talent. If the draft yields a quarterback (be it in the first round or elsewhere) then great. If not, the FA market will have options cheaper than $8.4M that will provide similar level of play at the position. That approach is win/win: gain something for Jones, reduce the cap hit at QB.
The only starting QBs making under $10M are on rookie contracts.
There are no decent vets making under $25M.
There may be cheaper options, but they probably don't lead to more wins and offer no upside.
I would not pick up the 5th year option. If Jones improves between now and the end of next season I'd consider signing him to a modest extension.
The cheapest and highest upside bet is to head into 2023 with a 2022 draft pick or 2023 rookie (or a much improved Jones). I don't think signing a vet does much to improve the team or trajectory.
There are several QBs making less than $8M (not in rookie deals) that would give you QB play at the same level of Jones or possibly better:
Tyrod Taylor $5.5M
Jameis Winston $5.5M
Jacoby Brissett $5M
Teddy Bridgewater $4.4M
Marcus Mariota $3.5M
Mitch Trubisky $2.5M
Mike Glennon $1.4M
All of those guys are scheduled to be FAs after this season. If 2022 is going to be the mess it looks like it's going to be, any of those guys + a draft pick is a better alternative to Jones at $8M.
That's why, as it stands right now, the Giants have to pass on the 5th year option.
Same shit, different year. Meaningless beyond obscuring the ability to self scout creating a false sense of optimism with the current group.
You don't know this. And the ONLY times they kept a HC thanks to some "meaningless" wins was last year and 2018 which were Shurmur and Judge's first seasons with the club, respectively. And they didn't really win any meaningless games last year anyway as they were literally one game out with one game left.
They fired McAdoo mid season. They fired Coughlin despite that team scoring 427 pts. They fired Shurmur in 2019 despite that very team going 2-1 down the stretch.
They might keep Judge because they don't want to fire a HC after 2 years that they have invested so much time and money into and they might win a few "meaningless" games along the way, but that doesn't mean what you think it means.
Again, they have fired more people than anyone since 2013. Kind of a big deal.
It aint rocket science, we need better players. Players that rise up in the 4th not players that are along for the ride. And yes, I am talking about Jones. Clock is ticking.
I'm arguing to enter 2022 with an outside GM, a different OC, and a different quarterback.
I'm arguing to enter 2022 with an outside GM, a different OC, and a different quarterback.
From your lips to God's ears.
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I'm not arguing to fire Judge. I like Judge.
I'm arguing to enter 2022 with an outside GM, a different OC, and a different quarterback.
From your lips to God's ears.
I should clarify... The first 2 are MUSTS.
And I'll trust Judge and the new GM's judgement on whether to keep Daniel Jones on this roster in 2022.
Tag Jones of necessary? He'll have to be playing like Russell Wilson to justify being tagged.
So as Terps suggestions -- since the Giants already botched the timeline -- is you reset the clock on Judge and pair him with a GM to start a new timeline with those two as a package deal.
Let those two be the ultimate jury and executioners on Daniel Jones' fate in 2022 and beyond.
My thinking was Jones needed to get to these numbers so the offense could have a chance to score at least 24ppg or >. A target # that usually gets teams into the playoff hunt...
So, to those who say we should let this play out for Jones before we make a final judgment, which is fair, what our your expectations for Jones these last 8 games?
How many TDs? TD:INT ratio? Completion %? etc.
I’m less worried about optimizing things than avoiding that disaster. Trade Jones; retire DG; hire an outside GM. Anything to avoid that scenario. Risk mitigation, man.
because here it comes...
I’m less worried about optimizing things than avoiding that disaster. Trade Jones; retire DG; hire an outside GM. Anything to avoid that scenario. Risk mitigation, man.
Horrifying scenario.
I believe Judge would jump at a chance to upgrade over Jones. Judge seems like a smart guy.
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In comment 15455984 Go Terps said:
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By the end of this season they will have played 49 games over 3 seasons since they drafted him. In today's NFL that is a lifetime and more than enough sample size to assess whether or not it's worth moving forward with him.
Right now Jones is one of the least productive starting quarterbacks in the NFL. I'm not saying that to knock him; it's just a fact. What is the risk in trading him?
You know what's also a fact? Jones has had absolute dogshit to work with on the OL and skill positions (and when he has had talent, it's been sitting on the sidelines most games), thus it's been pretty much impossible to fairly judge him.
But you - and others - conveniently overlook that.
No one's overlooked that. I've said many times the OL is brutal.
Fairly judging him is irrelevant. The concept of fair doesn't apply. That's pee wee league super fan bullshit.
So according to this time frame -if you take a look at Young Dan when he had 4 of the 5 OL named starters and yes that is w Solder and legit RB and a #1 WR -We fans should have seen a market improvement in all his numbers, Guess what it does, in fact puts him top 5 -Go thru and see his stats how much they jump.
Thats why there is such a disagreement about DJ -You see the uptick. This reminds me of all the Eli haters btw. You know who you are.. Even after the SB win giants fans undervalued Him ELITE. BTW the fact that Dan trained w Peyton and Eli and Cutliffe -and they all love him - I go with their acumen than uhh fans lol
So now if we add some monsters on the D and get some OL help back or traded for -This team goes into contention.
We have the coach -yes there are some growing pains w Judge -so what -hes the guy, reminds me of when Parcells took over -who? -he almost lost his job too -fans lol
Face it most fans are stupid, IMO The Mara family is too sensitive sometimes -"Fire Tom Coughlin!" remember that fans? lol idiots.
Garret is not the best but hes not the worst, just doesnt have much to work with -ok with having Freddie take over there
Graham -Keeper -The D starting to come together again and possibly a little more dependable. Now the Passrushers time. Ojaluri is a nice find BTW -Ellerson? Got good LBr Good DL and Good Secondary with X coming on. Another fans are stupid example -"Why Len Williams" lol Why add a stud Dave? lol Why trade away a pick for a Monster? lol A pick on the low range bc Jets are stupid.
GM look DG had enough time but unfortunately he couldnt build real depth fast enough bc of Reeeeech BUT his time must come to an end ala Accorsi A-The Rug "fire the Rug" remember lol Rug Made the greatest franchise Trade -aka ELI the Rug knew -magic. but fans needed the Rug fired lol
So here we are -Id keep Dave as a Snr. consultant in his retirement -personally i think the cancer had a lot to do with his first 2 seasons but thats just me, Team needs to Hire a GM that understands Judge and can find talent and is not thin skinned. Nothing else matters
IMO we have a very strong portfolio but many are too busy looking at some weakness and not understanding value..
Dont underestimate the ability of the masses to be wrong -most of the time.
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Jones a Kirk Cousins like contract that slides them into QB Hell Central Headquarters. And this organization is so confused and reactive, that is a realistic possibility. And that’s true of Barkley’s 2nd contract, too, to a lesser extent.
I’m less worried about optimizing things than avoiding that disaster. Trade Jones; retire DG; hire an outside GM. Anything to avoid that scenario. Risk mitigation, man.
Horrifying scenario.
I believe Judge would jump at a chance to upgrade over Jones. Judge seems like a smart guy.
Evaluation can still be made, but metrics don't always tell the whole story.
I'm more interested in more in-depth metrics. How does DJ do when given time AND his receiver is open, for example. Merely checking the stats on NFL.com is not enough.
All of those guys
Dnew15 : 11:32 am : link : reply
give a team the same kind of value, upside and production as DJ.
That's why, as it stands right now, the Giants have to pass on the 5th year option.
Totally agree. I think you need to pass on the 5th year option right now. But my point is, you shouldn't be signing any of those guys to start. We're looking for better + upside, not the same kind of value. If you're signing a QB on the cheap you're better off rolling the dice on a rookie as a starter.
Where I diverge from that opinion is with Matt Corral. If we're picking at 6 and he's there I think he's a great pick at that spot.
A guy that I'd love to land in the second round or later would be Louisville's Malik Cunningham. Good runner (16 TDs this year) and passer (8.6 AY/A) that might be a good value in round 2.
There are options if you trade Jones. Good options.
I would support that too if that destiny materializes as it appears is happening.
The interesting bit will be to see what Judge and New GM do with Jones. If Jones is jettison'ed quickly by Judge/GM it will be a major indictment of the Giants forcing themself onto Judge's tenure. They will even moreso owe it to Judge to reset the clock on him. Really interesting times coming up in Jints Land...
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Jones a Kirk Cousins like contract that slides them into QB Hell Central Headquarters. And this organization is so confused and reactive, that is a realistic possibility. And that’s true of Barkley’s 2nd contract, too, to a lesser extent.
I’m less worried about optimizing things than avoiding that disaster. Trade Jones; retire DG; hire an outside GM. Anything to avoid that scenario. Risk mitigation, man.
Horrifying scenario.
I believe Judge would jump at a chance to upgrade over Jones. Judge seems like a smart guy.
+100
I love how the barometer of success now is the team not quitting or losing the locker room. Is it too much to ask to compete for a playoff spot? Or really shoot for the moon and compete for the division....?
I think if you're signing a vet for 2022 it's merely as a placeholder, which is what Jones would be. You're just doing it for cheaper than Jones and getting something in trade to boot.
2022 is looking like a mess anyway.
Absurd. Idiotic.
Honestly it should give him and the rest of the coaching staff some more breathing room. Keeping Jones for year 4 and still not being a good team would mean the end of JJ here. A placeholder QB leading into a new QB in 23 (either one drafted in 22 and reshirted or one drafted in 23) resets his clock.
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give a team the same kind of value, upside and production as DJ.
Absurd. Idiotic.
ok
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In comment 15456408 Dnew15 said:
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give a team the same kind of value, upside and production as DJ.
Absurd. Idiotic.
ok
You put Glennon in the same category as Jones as of this moment and you expect not to be ridiculed for it?
It's a punt with Jones - a vet with no upside.
The executives and coaches have to stop worrying about selling things to the superfans.
Probably not. Anything is possible under certain circumstances.
But to insane fans - that's their belief of only 1 option.
1. The Giants are owned by Mara Tisch, and no one in that clan is going anywhere.
2.Getty is therefor the top ranking REPLACEABLE member of the Giants leadership organization. He's responsible for drafting, pro player matters and the cap. He sets the tone for the organization - even though Mara and family may be pulling the strings - we have to accept that the GM is the proverbial head of the rotting fish that is the Giants franchise.
3. There's just no denying that Getty's record as a GM is terrible. I don't think Getty ever had a fastball, but if he did, it is long past the time he can throw it. Getty is a GM with a loosing record and should be let go as soon as possible.
4. Judge may one day BECOME, but has not yet BEEN a winning head coach. Many of us like his demeanor and conduct with the press and we all seem to like the IDEA of Joe Judge as HC/NYG. But even adjusting for his lack of experience, what have we seen Judge accomplish? Putting aside the press conferences, how is Judge better than McAd'oh or Murmur? He isn't a good game manager. He makes no apparent game time adjustments. He isn't a good game planner. He doesn't seem to have any ability to get the offense out of the basement of the NFL. He has no obvious talents as a coach other than talking to the media. At best Judge would appear to be a "CEO type" of HC but really, isn't that setting an awfully low bar for holding one of only 32 NFL HC positions? I wouldn't fire him if the GM position was steady but the GM sucks and needs to be replaced. Why limit GM candidates by saddling them with a heretofore undistinguished HC?
5. Jones hasn't been a winning QB1. There's a long list of excuses for Jones' poor performance. Most of these excuses miss the point in my opinion, but even accepting every excuse, Jones has been bad on almost every game day of his career. Even Jones' staunchest or most delusional supports can't hide Jones' pathetic won / lost record, his turnovers and his apparent allergy to scoring TDs in the red zone. He hasn't been very durable either. Has Jones made anyone around him better? I think we need to ask the same question here as we ask about Judge: what has Jones DONE in his time here that makes anyone think he's a franchise QB. That list of things he's done is NOT zero because Jones has flashed. But, has he really flashed enough to convince people he's better than a solid backup?
So, if we can at least agree to see things the way they are, and not look at things the way we wish they were or the way we think things MIGHT one day be in the future, these decisions all begin to look really clear and pretty simple.
Based on the way things are, the Giants are a horrible bottom 5 NFL organization that should rebuild from the top down. Fire Getty, as quickly as possible, and let the new GM make the decisions on Judge and Jones.
Evaluation can still be made, but metrics don't always tell the whole story.
I'm more interested in more in-depth metrics. How does DJ do when given time AND his receiver is open, for example. Merely checking the stats on NFL.com is not enough.
Look, I get that we don't have the full infantry so Jones can operate under football Xanadu.
But JFC at some point he's got to do more than he's doing - regardless of the circumstances.
I can't prove it, but I am getting the sense that Jones doesn't have the ability - on a play to play basis - to check out of the designed plays for a better play based on coverage. I would bet there are more plays to be made but Jones just doesn't see the opportunities. How often have we heard Judge/Garrett say "...great play by Daniel getting us out of the original play and getting the ball to ________ instead..."
Ever??
5. Jones hasn't been a winning QB1. There's a long list of excuses for Jones' poor performance. Most of these excuses miss the point in my opinion, but even accepting every excuse, Jones has been bad on almost every game day of his career. Even Jones' staunchest or most delusional supports can't hide Jones' pathetic won / lost record, his turnovers and his apparent allergy to scoring TDs in the red zone. He hasn't been very durable either. Has Jones made anyone around him better? I think we need to ask the same question here as we ask about Judge: what has Jones DONE in his time here that makes anyone think he's a franchise QB. That list of things he's done is NOT zero because Jones has flashed. But, has he really flashed enough to convince people he's better than a solid backup?
The problem with number 5 is that you aren't very bright.
Let me dumb it down for you. The 2 year pathetic OL, the 2 year pathetic Tight Ends, the last year pathetic receiving core and RB along with the often injured this year receiving core and rb are FACTS. Not excuses. How is that you can't understand what is FACT?
DO some of you have any understanding that football has more than 1 player on it?
Going blindly by wins and losses shows your speed. I guess DeGrom isn't very good either, eh?
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5. Jones hasn't been a winning QB1. There's a long list of excuses for Jones' poor performance. Most of these excuses miss the point in my opinion, but even accepting every excuse, Jones has been bad on almost every game day of his career. Even Jones' staunchest or most delusional supports can't hide Jones' pathetic won / lost record, his turnovers and his apparent allergy to scoring TDs in the red zone. He hasn't been very durable either. Has Jones made anyone around him better? I think we need to ask the same question here as we ask about Judge: what has Jones DONE in his time here that makes anyone think he's a franchise QB. That list of things he's done is NOT zero because Jones has flashed. But, has he really flashed enough to convince people he's better than a solid backup?
The problem with number 5 is that you aren't very bright.
Let me dumb it down for you. The 2 year pathetic OL, the 2 year pathetic Tight Ends, the last year pathetic receiving core and RB along with the often injured this year receiving core and rb are FACTS. Not excuses. How is that you can't understand what is FACT?
DO some of you have any understanding that football has more than 1 player on it?
Going blindly by wins and losses shows your speed. I guess DeGrom isn't very good either, eh?
BY EVERY OBJECTIVE MEASURE, JONES IS JAG.
Fact.
Amateurs deal in tactics, masters deal in logistics. Stop whining about the other players already. Jones hasn't gotten it done - the reasons are irrelevant.
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5. Jones hasn't been a winning QB1. There's a long list of excuses for Jones' poor performance. Most of these excuses miss the point in my opinion, but even accepting every excuse, Jones has been bad on almost every game day of his career. Even Jones' staunchest or most delusional supports can't hide Jones' pathetic won / lost record, his turnovers and his apparent allergy to scoring TDs in the red zone. He hasn't been very durable either. Has Jones made anyone around him better? I think we need to ask the same question here as we ask about Judge: what has Jones DONE in his time here that makes anyone think he's a franchise QB. That list of things he's done is NOT zero because Jones has flashed. But, has he really flashed enough to convince people he's better than a solid backup?
The problem with number 5 is that you aren't very bright.
Let me dumb it down for you. The 2 year pathetic OL, the 2 year pathetic Tight Ends, the last year pathetic receiving core and RB along with the often injured this year receiving core and rb are FACTS. Not excuses. How is that you can't understand what is FACT?
DO some of you have any understanding that football has more than 1 player on it?
Going blindly by wins and losses shows your speed. I guess DeGrom isn't very good either, eh?
I have a well practiced policy of not engaging in any personal mud slinging or name calling with other posters here on BBI. But feel free to use your obviously considerable intellect to argue against the merits of my post, or as the case may be, the lack thereof. I'll do my best to keep up with you.
So, to those who say we should let this play out for Jones before we make a final judgment, which is fair, what our your expectations for Jones these last 8 games?
p.s.--My guess is that the salary cap is going through the roof in the next few years and money won't factor into the decision on the 5th year option. If they like Jones enough that they aren't taking a QB in the 1st round, then they like him enough to pick up the 5th year.
He never made 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team all-ACC. Not even honorable mention ACC.
In the NFL, he hasn't been the literal worst QB, but his numbers are barely starter quality, if that. His offenses have sucked. He has obvious flaws. He doesn't score.
Why does anybody care about this guy? Hes never done a thing for the Giants. He's never been in a big spot in his life.. He's going to be completely forgettable. This whole era is going to be a blank spot in our memory.
He never made 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team all-ACC. Not even honorable mention ACC.
In the NFL, he hasn't been the literal worst QB, but his numbers are barely starter quality, if that. His offenses have sucked. He has obvious flaws. He doesn't score.
Why does anybody care about this guy? Hes never done a thing for the Giants. He's never been in a big spot in his life.. He's going to be completely forgettable. This whole era is going to be a blank spot in our memory.
Well said.
There's a set of fans that would overrate a smallpox blanket if it had a Giants logo on it. They're the types that post things like "I've got a funny feeling the Giants surprise us this season..." Their biggest contribution is that they are a mirror of John Mara's thoughts.
Someone compared Daniel Jones to Jacob deGrom to say you can't judge a player by won loss record? That beats Tony can do things OBJ couldn't. By quite a large margin actually.
If Daniel Jones' peripherals matched Jacob deGrom's we would all be celebrating the next great Giants QB instead of hoping they replace him.
1. The Giants are owned by Mara Tisch, and no one in that clan is going anywhere.
2.Getty is therefor the top ranking REPLACEABLE member of the Giants leadership organization. He's responsible for drafting, pro player matters and the cap. He sets the tone for the organization - even though Mara and family may be pulling the strings - we have to accept that the GM is the proverbial head of the rotting fish that is the Giants franchise.
3. There's just no denying that Getty's record as a GM is terrible. I don't think Getty ever had a fastball, but if he did, it is long past the time he can throw it. Getty is a GM with a loosing record and should be let go as soon as possible.
4. Judge may one day BECOME, but has not yet BEEN a winning head coach. Many of us like his demeanor and conduct with the press and we all seem to like the IDEA of Joe Judge as HC/NYG. But even adjusting for his lack of experience, what have we seen Judge accomplish? Putting aside the press conferences, how is Judge better than McAd'oh or Murmur? He isn't a good game manager. He makes no apparent game time adjustments. He isn't a good game planner. He doesn't seem to have any ability to get the offense out of the basement of the NFL. He has no obvious talents as a coach other than talking to the media. At best Judge would appear to be a "CEO type" of HC but really, isn't that setting an awfully low bar for holding one of only 32 NFL HC positions? I wouldn't fire him if the GM position was steady but the GM sucks and needs to be replaced. Why limit GM candidates by saddling them with a heretofore undistinguished HC?
5. Jones hasn't been a winning QB1. There's a long list of excuses for Jones' poor performance. Most of these excuses miss the point in my opinion, but even accepting every excuse, Jones has been bad on almost every game day of his career. Even Jones' staunchest or most delusional supports can't hide Jones' pathetic won / lost record, his turnovers and his apparent allergy to scoring TDs in the red zone. He hasn't been very durable either. Has Jones made anyone around him better? I think we need to ask the same question here as we ask about Judge: what has Jones DONE in his time here that makes anyone think he's a franchise QB. That list of things he's done is NOT zero because Jones has flashed. But, has he really flashed enough to convince people he's better than a solid backup?
So, if we can at least agree to see things the way they are, and not look at things the way we wish they were or the way we think things MIGHT one day be in the future, these decisions all begin to look really clear and pretty simple.
Based on the way things are, the Giants are a horrible bottom 5 NFL organization that should rebuild from the top down. Fire Getty, as quickly as possible, and let the new GM make the decisions on Judge and Jones.
Great post! Unfortunately, this is where we are. As much as I am anti Judge & Jones (I've see more than enough to form an opinion), I agree, the new GM should be allowed to give the thumbs or thumbs down to Judge & Jones.
Someone compared Daniel Jones to Jacob deGrom to say you can't judge a player by won loss record? That beats Tony can do things OBJ couldn't. By quite a large margin actually.
If Daniel Jones' peripherals matched Jacob deGrom's we would all be celebrating the next great Giants QB instead of hoping they replace him.
The Giants are in the same boat and should absolutely be looking to upgrade at the position as early as this draft. But if they're not in love with anyone then a bridge QB works for the 22 season
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OK genius. By what objective measure has Jones been good? Not one game, not just his rookie year. A career based stat that objectively identifies that Jones has the goods.
BY EVERY OBJECTIVE MEASURE, JONES IS JAG.
Fact.
"Objective measure?" IS there really an Objective measure in this case?
Because if we're going to talk "Objectively" let's talk about the following?
1-- We have one of the biggest moron GM's that we've ever had, right? In fact the moron admitted that he tried to win and rebuild at the same time for a team any objective and knowledgeable fan knew was going to suck, right?
2--- Objectively, is Judge a lock as a coach?
3-- Objectively, how is our OC, Garrett? He's done a good job? Fair? Objectively how would you rate him?
4-- For two years now we've featured primarily backup RB's, right?
5-- For the past two years we've had pathetic Tight Ends, completely / grossly incompetent, right?
6—For 2020 our WRs were amongst the worst in getting separation and over they were a shitty core, right?
7—This year our top WR’s have been mostly hurt – missing a large % of the games, right?
8—Last year amongst the top 2 or 3 worst OLINES in all of football.
9—This year prior to Raider game according to PFF - Giants OL had 25th rating vs run and 30th against the pass.
10—So with all these factors can you explain how your “objective measurements” would’ve shown that Tannehill would’ve been much better during his 1st three years vs what Jones is doing now?
11- DO you know what Tannehill’s QBR rating was when he was 30 with Miami in 2018? It was 33.2. Isn’t it true then that you’re supposed “Objective Measurements” would be spewing the same nonsense back in 2018?
[quote] In comment 15456781 arniefez said:
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until after the draft. 2022 draft 4/28-4/30. 5th year option deadline 5/2/22. So it's a non issue until after free agency and the draft.
Someone compared Daniel Jones to Jacob deGrom to say you can't judge a player by won loss record? That beats Tony can do things OBJ couldn't. By quite a large margin actually.
If Daniel Jones' peripherals matched Jacob deGrom's we would all be celebrating the next great Giants QB instead of hoping they replace him.
I thought the same thing about the DeGrom Comment. If Daniel Jones QBR was as good as DeGrom's WhIP, no one would be complaining about Jones. [/quote
Si it's NOT all about wins and losses then, right?
So why do you bring it up as a defining stat?
You can't have it both ways here.
So Tannehill is not a great QB so Tennessee should just forget about the season and dump Tannehill?
SO their 2019 season meant nothing too when they got to AFC Championship?
And in the Super Bowl with San Fran and Jimmy G - they shouldn't have even bothered to show up?
And Philly beating Pats with a backup QB, beating Brady and Belchick, -- but as you say only "great" QB's can win, right?
Not too much selective memory, eh? You guys are making this too easy.
The Giants are in the same boat and should absolutely be looking to upgrade at the position as early as this draft. But if they're not in love with anyone then a bridge QB works for the 22 season
Scooter - yes, but that's a very convenient statement by Young to spout off since it's fairly apparent there are far less "great" QBs around than NFL teams.
And let's be fair, a lot of teams (like the Browns and Giants) may look around for an upgrade each year but they either 1) don't see or believe it 2) don't want to risk the capital or 3) are conservative and stay the course. We as fans don't know the real conversations on the inside.
Bridge QBs may sound fine for fans on a message board but that job to delay trying to win each year still has to be sold to a lot of constituents, internal and external.
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Steve Young said that the Brown's absolutely should move on from Mayfield before he'll never be the guy to get them to the promised land and that more now than ever before in the history of the NFL, teams need to have a great (not servicable, not ok, -great) QB to have a chance at a SB title.
So Tannehill is not a great QB so Tennessee should just forget about the season and dump Tannehill?
SO their 2019 season meant nothing too when they got to AFC Championship?
And in the Super Bowl with San Fran and Jimmy G - they shouldn't have even bothered to show up?
And Philly beating Pats with a backup QB, beating Brady and Belchick, -- but as you say only "great" QB's can win, right?
Not too much selective memory, eh? You guys are making this too easy.
Hey, take it up with Steve Young. Who, if I remember correctly was hailed as a top authority on QBs recently because he said nice things about Daniel Jones
In comment 15457169 chick310 said:
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Steve Young said that the Brown's absolutely should move on from Mayfield before he'll never be the guy to get them to the promised land and that more now than ever before in the history of the NFL, teams need to have a great (not servicable, not ok, -great) QB to have a chance at a SB title.
The Giants are in the same boat and should absolutely be looking to upgrade at the position as early as this draft. But if they're not in love with anyone then a bridge QB works for the 22 season
Scooter - yes, but that's a very convenient statement by Young to spout off since it's fairly apparent there are far less "great" QBs around than NFL teams.
And let's be fair, a lot of teams (like the Browns and Giants) may look around for an upgrade each year but they either 1) don't see or believe it 2) don't want to risk the capital or 3) are conservative and stay the course. We as fans don't know the real conversations on the inside.
Bridge QBs may sound fine for fans on a message board but that job to delay trying to win each year still has to be sold to a lot of constituents, internal and external.
And staying the course wouldn't be delaying trying to win?
Right, wrong or indifferent NFL Front Offices don't all work on the same time line with their decisions as fans would, or former NFL greats with a mic in their hand.
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In comment 15456679 giantstock said:
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OK genius. By what objective measure has Jones been good? Not one game, not just his rookie year. A career based stat that objectively identifies that Jones has the goods.
BY EVERY OBJECTIVE MEASURE, JONES IS JAG.
Fact.
"Objective measure?" IS there really an Objective measure in this case?
Because if we're going to talk "Objectively" let's talk about the following?
1-- We have one of the biggest moron GM's that we've ever had, right? In fact the moron admitted that he tried to win and rebuild at the same time for a team any objective and knowledgeable fan knew was going to suck, right?
2--- Objectively, is Judge a lock as a coach?
3-- Objectively, how is our OC, Garrett? He's done a good job? Fair? Objectively how would you rate him?
4-- For two years now we've featured primarily backup RB's, right?
5-- For the past two years we've had pathetic Tight Ends, completely / grossly incompetent, right?
6—For 2020 our WRs were amongst the worst in getting separation and over they were a shitty core, right?
7—This year our top WR’s have been mostly hurt – missing a large % of the games, right?
8—Last year amongst the top 2 or 3 worst OLINES in all of football.
9—This year prior to Raider game according to PFF - Giants OL had 25th rating vs run and 30th against the pass.
10—So with all these factors can you explain how your “objective measurements” would’ve shown that Tannehill would’ve been much better during his 1st three years vs what Jones is doing now?
11- DO you know what Tannehill’s QBR rating was when he was 30 with Miami in 2018? It was 33.2. Isn’t it true then that you’re supposed “Objective Measurements” would be spewing the same nonsense back in 2018?
11- DO you know what Tannehill’s QBR rating was when he was 30 with Miami in 2018? It was 33.2. Isn’t it true then that you’re supposed “Objective Measurements” would be spewing the same nonsense back in 2018?
If you're pulling out one year of Tannehill's career, I'd hardly call that an "objective measurement", it sounds pretty subjective to me. In years 2-4 in Miami, Tannehill averaged over 4,000 yards and 25 TD's. If Jones were producing at that level, we wouldn't be talking about replacing him.
Name a team with worse OTs than the Giants since AT went down. You can't. Solder is an absolute train wreck. He's not just bad. We could almost function with bad. He's tragic. Peart has not been much better, but I'll let him slide because he was a project. I think many of you would do well to watch some of the OL reviews by Skinner. It's laughable how poor this OL is without AT.
Nevermind that our starting LG was cut by the Dolphins and the OC is considered a 1st round bust.
Name a team with worse WRs since Galloday, Toney and SS got injured. We are trotting out two guys who were cut in Ross and Johnson.
Name more than 5 teams with a worse run game. We average 3.9 yards per carry. Take out Jones' runs, I would guess we'd average 3.4 yards a carry or less. Between the OL run blocking and the fact that Booker is not a game breaking running back, teams can sell out to defend against the pass.
I don't know whether DJ is the answer. I see things I like and sometimes I see things I don't like, but for the life of me how any says they can say with any certitude that DJ is bad with an awful OL, bad WRs, and zero threat of a run game is beyond me.
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In comment 15456689 Thegratefulhead said:
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In comment 15456679 giantstock said:
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OK genius. By what objective measure has Jones been good? Not one game, not just his rookie year. A career based stat that objectively identifies that Jones has the goods.
BY EVERY OBJECTIVE MEASURE, JONES IS JAG.
Fact.
"Objective measure?" IS there really an Objective measure in this case?
Because if we're going to talk "Objectively" let's talk about the following?
1-- We have one of the biggest moron GM's that we've ever had, right? In fact the moron admitted that he tried to win and rebuild at the same time for a team any objective and knowledgeable fan knew was going to suck, right?
2--- Objectively, is Judge a lock as a coach?
3-- Objectively, how is our OC, Garrett? He's done a good job? Fair? Objectively how would you rate him?
4-- For two years now we've featured primarily backup RB's, right?
5-- For the past two years we've had pathetic Tight Ends, completely / grossly incompetent, right?
6—For 2020 our WRs were amongst the worst in getting separation and over they were a shitty core, right?
7—This year our top WR’s have been mostly hurt – missing a large % of the games, right?
8—Last year amongst the top 2 or 3 worst OLINES in all of football.
9—This year prior to Raider game according to PFF - Giants OL had 25th rating vs run and 30th against the pass.
10—So with all these factors can you explain how your “objective measurements” would’ve shown that Tannehill would’ve been much better during his 1st three years vs what Jones is doing now?
11- DO you know what Tannehill’s QBR rating was when he was 30 with Miami in 2018? It was 33.2. Isn’t it true then that you’re supposed “Objective Measurements” would be spewing the same nonsense back in 2018?
Thank you for clarifying you have no idea what objective measures are and have no arguments to make that Daniel Jones has the goods. You have subjectivity to explain his pitiful lack of production. We no longer need to converse about this as it would be a waste of time.
Thank you talking about stats that you don't understand. It's a good laugh.
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11- DO you know what Tannehill’s QBR rating was when he was 30 with Miami in 2018? It was 33.2. Isn’t it true then that you’re supposed “Objective Measurements” would be spewing the same nonsense back in 2018?
If you're pulling out one year of Tannehill's career, I'd hardly call that an "objective measurement", it sounds pretty subjective to me. In years 2-4 in Miami, Tannehill averaged over 4,000 yards and 25 TD's. If Jones were producing at that level, we wouldn't be talking about replacing him.
One year of Tannehill's career? Just "One year?" Seriously?
In 2019 he was ranked 9th as a QBR. That sucks?
In 2020 he was ranked 4th as a QBR. That sucks?
In 2021 he was ranked 8th as a QBR. That sucks?
So when some posters on here slam Jones with QBR - the stat counts? But when it's used to show a player has bene pretty good and might prove favorable for Jones in the future then all of sudden those same stats don't count?
Yeah sure okay. Not too hypocritical/ bias, are we?
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In comment 15457084 giantstock said:
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11- DO you know what Tannehill’s QBR rating was when he was 30 with Miami in 2018? It was 33.2. Isn’t it true then that you’re supposed “Objective Measurements” would be spewing the same nonsense back in 2018?
If you're pulling out one year of Tannehill's career, I'd hardly call that an "objective measurement", it sounds pretty subjective to me. In years 2-4 in Miami, Tannehill averaged over 4,000 yards and 25 TD's. If Jones were producing at that level, we wouldn't be talking about replacing him.
One year of Tannehill's career? Just "One year?" Seriously?
In 2019 he was ranked 9th as a QBR. That sucks?
In 2020 he was ranked 4th as a QBR. That sucks?
In 2021 he was ranked 8th as a QBR. That sucks?
So when some posters on here slam Jones with QBR - the stat counts? But when it's used to show a player has bene pretty good and might prove favorable for Jones in the future then all of sudden those same stats don't count?
Yeah sure okay. Not too hypocritical/ bias, are we?
Yes, just one year. You didn't mention 2019, 2020 or 2021, not to mention 2014, '15, and '16. Look, I didn't bring up QBR, you did. But if you're going to use Tannehill's QBR to make a point, maybe using his worst season (by far) isn't the most "objective" way of doing that.
But I wouldn't want to be hypocritical.
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11- DO you know what Tannehill’s QBR rating was when he was 30 with Miami in 2018? It was 33.2. Isn’t it true then that you’re supposed “Objective Measurements” would be spewing the same nonsense back in 2018?
If you're pulling out one year of Tannehill's career, I'd hardly call that an "objective measurement", it sounds pretty subjective to me. In years 2-4 in Miami, Tannehill averaged over 4,000 yards and 25 TD's. If Jones were producing at that level, we wouldn't be talking about replacing him.
In reagrds ot Miami, whne you use the phrase "If Jones were producing at that level, we wouldn't be talking about replacing him",
Wehn you refer to "we" many have used QBR to rip inot Jones. Now you want ot ignore it?
Here are Ryan's QBR stats:
2012 48.4
2013 48.4
2014 59.3
2015 45.6
2016 48.6
2018 33.2
Daniel Jones 1st 2 years are 55.7 and 61.4. This year so far 44.7. But now QBR doesn't count at all, right?
In reagrds ot Miami, whne you use the phrase "If Jones were producing at that level, we wouldn't be talking about replacing him",
Wehn you refer to "we" many have used QBR to rip inot Jones. Now you want ot ignore it?
Here are Ryan's QBR stats:
2012 48.4
2013 48.4
2014 59.3
2015 45.6
2016 48.6
2018 33.2
Daniel Jones 1st 2 years are 55.7 and 61.4. This year so far 44.7. But now QBR doesn't count at all, right?
Again, you are the one who brought up QBR, I think it is a flawed stat. Somewhat useful when taken in context, but far from the final barometer of a QB. I repeat, if Jones averaged 4,000+ yards and 25 TD's over his 2nd-4th years, no one would be complaining about him.
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In comment 15457396 Section331 said:
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In comment 15457084 giantstock said:
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11- DO you know what Tannehill’s QBR rating was when he was 30 with Miami in 2018? It was 33.2. Isn’t it true then that you’re supposed “Objective Measurements” would be spewing the same nonsense back in 2018?
If you're pulling out one year of Tannehill's career, I'd hardly call that an "objective measurement", it sounds pretty subjective to me. In years 2-4 in Miami, Tannehill averaged over 4,000 yards and 25 TD's. If Jones were producing at that level, we wouldn't be talking about replacing him.
One year of Tannehill's career? Just "One year?" Seriously?
In 2019 he was ranked 9th as a QBR. That sucks?
In 2020 he was ranked 4th as a QBR. That sucks?
In 2021 he was ranked 8th as a QBR. That sucks?
So when some posters on here slam Jones with QBR - the stat counts? But when it's used to show a player has bene pretty good and might prove favorable for Jones in the future then all of sudden those same stats don't count?
Yeah sure okay. Not too hypocritical/ bias, are we?
Yes, just one year. You didn't mention 2019, 2020 or 2021, not to mention 2014, '15, and '16. Look, I didn't bring up QBR, you did. But if you're going to use Tannehill's QBR to make a point, maybe using his worst season (by far) isn't the most "objective" way of doing that.
But I wouldn't want to be hypocritical.
What do you mean "YES" ONE YEAR??? I just showed you THREE!
I was showing how BAD he was in one year. How do oyu think posters like YOU and others on here would react ot a 33.2? Fans were already meltdown down with Jones for 2019 and 2020 and what would 33.2 mean?
The fact that you want to bury your head in the sand with doing a little easy research on Jones vs Tannehill is not my problem. If you are too lazy to see what's objective -- it's not my problem to explain it you - that Jones has bene near equal to Tannehill this early. Look at number 10 it clearly talks of 1st 3 years. That's what I initially said.
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10—So with all these factors can you explain how your “objective measurements” would’ve shown that Tannehill would’ve been much better during his 1st three years vs what Jones is doing now?
==============================
Quote:
In reagrds ot Miami, whne you use the phrase "If Jones were producing at that level, we wouldn't be talking about replacing him",
Wehn you refer to "we" many have used QBR to rip inot Jones. Now you want ot ignore it?
Here are Ryan's QBR stats:
2012 48.4
2013 48.4
2014 59.3
2015 45.6
2016 48.6
2018 33.2
Daniel Jones 1st 2 years are 55.7 and 61.4. This year so far 44.7. But now QBR doesn't count at all, right?
Again, you are the one who brought up QBR, I think it is a flawed stat. Somewhat useful when taken in context, but far from the final barometer of a QB. I repeat, if Jones averaged 4,000+ yards and 25 TD's over his 2nd-4th years, no one would be complaining about him.
Yet when people complain about Jones when they use QBR you have no problem using it?
Soi it is useful to use against Jones because you agree with their pov, but when it shows something else it's not useful at all, right?
My pov on Jones unlike all the nutjobs that proclaim he sucks - is that I'm with SY - wait and see more. Banks has even called him a franchise QB. SO if I use a stat to show he isn’t that bad compared to an early Tannehill while posters like BW show Jones sucks and uses QBR as a talking point--
you're suggesting I can't use it but he can? And I am in agreement with SY for wait and see and yet you have nutjobs like bw posting nonsense but he is credible?
The hypocrisy from many of you continues.
What do you mean "YES" ONE YEAR??? I just showed you THREE!
I was showing how BAD he was in one year. How do oyu think posters like YOU and others on here would react ot a 33.2? Fans were already meltdown down with Jones for 2019 and 2020 and what would 33.2 mean?
The fact that you want to bury your head in the sand with doing a little easy research on Jones vs Tannehill is not my problem. If you are too lazy to see what's objective -- it's not my problem to explain it you - that Jones has bene near equal to Tannehill this early. Look at number 10 it clearly talks of 1st 3 years. That's what I initially said.
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10—So with all these factors can you explain how your “objective measurements” would’ve shown that Tannehill would’ve been much better during his 1st three years vs what Jones is doing now?
==============================
Don't be so fucking obtuse. My point was that your INITIAL post cherry-picked RT's worst year to make a point. The reality is that he was pretty good in Miami, but struggled with injuries his last 2 years there. He was already 30 and a new coaching staff decided to move on.
My "objective measurements" show that Tannehill was much better in his first 3 years than Jones has been:
2012 3,294 yds 13 TD's 12 INT's
2013 3,913/24/17
2014 4,045/27/12
2019 3,027/24/12
2020 2,943/10/11
2021 3,889/15/9 (projected)
And Jones's 2021 will have included a 17th start. Tannehill's numbers trended up in each of those early seasons, Jones has regressed markedly after a good rookie year. 25 TD passes in 2 years is simply unacceptable in today's NFL. You're free to think otherwise, but you'll be in the minority.
Yet when people complain about Jones when they use QBR you have no problem using it?
Soi it is useful to use against Jones because you agree with their pov, but when it shows something else it's not useful at all, right?
My pov on Jones unlike all the nutjobs that proclaim he sucks - is that I'm with SY - wait and see more. Banks has even called him a franchise QB. SO if I use a stat to show he isn’t that bad compared to an early Tannehill while posters like BW show Jones sucks and uses QBR as a talking point--
you're suggesting I can't use it but he can? And I am in agreement with SY for wait and see and yet you have nutjobs like bw posting nonsense but he is credible?
The hypocrisy from many of you continues.
I have no idea what you're talking about. Point to where I responded positively to a QBR post. I think it's a horribly overused and misunderstood stat. And you can use whatever you want. My objection wasn't to you using QBR, it was for pulling one year out of the 10 Tannehill has been a pro. That is the exact opposite of "objective measurement".
THAT was my point, which I guess you missed entirely.
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Yet when people complain about Jones when they use QBR you have no problem using it?
Soi it is useful to use against Jones because you agree with their pov, but when it shows something else it's not useful at all, right?
My pov on Jones unlike all the nutjobs that proclaim he sucks - is that I'm with SY - wait and see more. Banks has even called him a franchise QB. SO if I use a stat to show he isn’t that bad compared to an early Tannehill while posters like BW show Jones sucks and uses QBR as a talking point--
you're suggesting I can't use it but he can? And I am in agreement with SY for wait and see and yet you have nutjobs like bw posting nonsense but he is credible?
The hypocrisy from many of you continues.
I have no idea what you're talking about. Point to where I responded positively to a QBR post. I think it's a horribly overused and misunderstood stat. And you can use whatever you want. My objection wasn't to you using QBR, it was for pulling one year out of the 10 Tannehill has been a pro. That is the exact opposite of "objective measurement".
THAT was my point, which I guess you missed entirely.
NOW you say "It's overused" yet kind of odd when the poster BW has used it to bash Jones- I can't recall you going after him stating that the stat is overused. I'm sure others that have blasted Jones did the same thing and liked the stat as well. But now all of sudden when it's used to support Jones it's no good?
And regarding another stat, we have another poster Go Terps who uses "wins and losses" as his top stat. He specifically cited that stat as evidence Jones has ot go. I don't seem to recall you bashing him for "over-using" that stat either.
You seem to have no problem people using the QBR stats and "the wins and losses stats" when it bashes Jones, right?
But when for example the QBR stat supports him in some manner then "You don't like the stat," right?
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What do you mean "YES" ONE YEAR??? I just showed you THREE!
I was showing how BAD he was in one year. How do oyu think posters like YOU and others on here would react ot a 33.2? Fans were already meltdown down with Jones for 2019 and 2020 and what would 33.2 mean?
The fact that you want to bury your head in the sand with doing a little easy research on Jones vs Tannehill is not my problem. If you are too lazy to see what's objective -- it's not my problem to explain it you - that Jones has bene near equal to Tannehill this early. Look at number 10 it clearly talks of 1st 3 years. That's what I initially said.
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10—So with all these factors can you explain how your “objective measurements” would’ve shown that Tannehill would’ve been much better during his 1st three years vs what Jones is doing now?
==============================
Don't be so fucking obtuse. My point was that your INITIAL post cherry-picked RT's worst year to make a point. The reality is that he was pretty good in Miami, but struggled with injuries his last 2 years there. He was already 30 and a new coaching staff decided to move on.
My "objective measurements" show that Tannehill was much better in his first 3 years than Jones has been:
2012 3,294 yds 13 TD's 12 INT's
2013 3,913/24/17
2014 4,045/27/12
2019 3,027/24/12
2020 2,943/10/11
2021 3,889/15/9 (projected)
And Jones's 2021 will have included a 17th start. Tannehill's numbers trended up in each of those early seasons, Jones has regressed markedly after a good rookie year. 25 TD passes in 2 years is simply unacceptable in today's NFL. You're free to think otherwise, but you'll be in the minority.
Let me dumb it down for you again MORON.
I said that used the stat to HIGHLIGHT how morns like you would use the stat to bash Jones and I highlighted ONE SEASN to show what would happen if someone like Tannehill had THAT STAT on here or if Jones had a stat THAT pathetic.
Because you're too stupid to understand THAT"S WHY I highlighted the stat and are TRYING to DEFLECT Tannehill's QBR rating lower than Jones overall his 1st three years- it's not my problem.
I’m in "the minority?" Sure I'm in the minority on a chat board but again again we are talking ENGLISH here, right? I AGREE with SY that Jones is "wait and see." Banks has called Jones "A Franchise QB." These are the type of QUALITY that are more wait-and see types. Who do you have on your side? The idiot OP? And morons like Go Terps and BW? And because you find these idiots on a chat board that you clowns are supposed to be some kind of expert authority?
I'm the one with some points of reference like SY and think Banks might've gone too far but I'm still wait and see- and yet I'm the one that is obtuse because I'm listening to people that know far more than you and the other clowns?
You're such an idiot. And wtf do you know about QBR?