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Some good Duggan notes from The Athletic

Sean : 11/16/2021 5:52 pm
This is behind a paywall, but some good points made:

Re: Jones
Quote:
The Giants need to decide on Jones’ fifth-year option for the 2023 season by early May. That option is projected to cost $21.4 million. Jones’ cap hit is just $7.2 million this season, so exercising that option signals a serious commitment.

If Jones’ performance doesn’t improve, the most pragmatic approach would be to decline the option and let Jones play out the final season of his rookie deal. His cap hit is just $8.4 million in 2022.

That would maintain maximum flexibility, as the Giants could simply cut ties after next season if Jones doesn’t pan out. If Jones finally delivers in Year 4, the team could still retain him via the franchise tag or an extension, but that would be more costly than exercising the fifth-year option.


Re: Judge
Quote:
It’s nearly impossible to envision a scenario where Joe Judge isn’t back for a third season as head coach. Maybe ownership would make a change if the Giants lose their final eight games, but even then, there would likely need to be major locker-room issues to prompt a move.

Mara has made it clear that it’s important to him that a coach doesn’t lose the locker room. The team hasn’t quit on Judge in either of his two seasons despite slow starts, so there’s no reason to expect a second-half collapse.

Judge needs to figure out a way to avoid such poor starts, but expect the Giants to give the 39-year-old first-time head coach the opportunity to learn from some of his early missteps.


Re: Gettleman
Quote:
If Judge is retained, that makes things stickier on the general manager front. Gettleman has proven to have surprising staying power, but it seems impossible that ownership could sell a fourth losing season to a restless fan base. So unless there’s a dramatic second-half turnaround, the Giants will likely be in the market for a new GM.

For the same reason that keeping Gettleman would be untenable, it’s hard to foresee an internal promotion. Promoting a lieutenant from Gettleman’s unsuccessful tenure would be a head-scratcher.

If the Giants go outside of the organization, they’ll need to find a candidate who is compatible with Judge. The question is how much weight they put on Judge during the GM search. Do they prioritize a candidate with ties to Judge, such as Titans director of player personnel Monti Ossenfort, or do they just find the best option who will sign on to work with Judge?

That’s the downside of having a coach and general manager on separate tracks. If the Giants finish with a similar record to last season, Judge’s seat will be heating up at the same time a new general manager is coming on board. It’s a potentially messy corner the Giants have backed themselves into by sticking with Gettleman.


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RE: You just described how Jones is the one in a bind if he can’t  
section125 : 11/17/2021 8:09 am : link
In comment 15456075 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
distinguish himself. The Giants could alleviate that for him by not realizing it and continuing to pay him to play QB, but then they are just taking on that bind.

They have options and can go in numerous directions...


Ah, I see. So Jones is in a bind, but the Giants aren't...No shit Sherlock, the Giants have options, but are any of then good options?

Let's see what they are if he continues undistinguished:

Cut him - Save $$$
Trade him - get a 5th(?) rnd pick
Let him walk - hope for a comp pick
Keep him and exercise 5th yr option at $20 mill with the team close to the cap(maybe)

I guess you are right - just say fuck it and start over.
RE: Strange article  
CV36 : 11/17/2021 8:11 am : link
In comment 15456078 ghost718 said:
Quote:
I don't think I've ever heard "2nd half collapse" mentioned with a 3-6 team.




My favorite comment on this post.
RE: These points have been discussed here  
Jimmy Googs : 11/17/2021 8:14 am : link
In comment 15456195 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
Agree that Jones will be back next year but they will not extend the 5th year option.

Agree that Judge will be back provided the team shows improvement along with some wins for the rest of the season.

I think its more likely a internal GM is promoted because Mara has said several times the Giants have made very significant changes to their processes. If they go outside it will be someone who will work within the existing structure.

I think next year is the critical year for Judge. The team will have to be in the playoffs or right in the mix and it will have to be clear that the QB is holding the team back. If that is not the case then I think the Giants blow things up and a total outside hire is brought who is given control.


I struggle with this line of thinking on Judge.

You preface that the franchise has 1) little faith in Jones because they don't exercise the option, and 2) the GM is replaced presumably because he can't build a good enough roster. But then it's up to Judge to somehow make them a playoff team (or in the mix) with this as his material in 2022 or he's out?...not logical.

Judge should get replaced if he cannot coach the games properly, good players get worse and/or start dogging it, he loses the lockerroom, they look unprepared, etc. These are the things on him, not the roster he was largely provided with probably just some minimal input.
RE: RE: You just described how Jones is the one in a bind if he can’t  
Jimmy Googs : 11/17/2021 8:32 am : link
In comment 15456212 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15456075 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


distinguish himself. The Giants could alleviate that for him by not realizing it and continuing to pay him to play QB, but then they are just taking on that bind.

They have options and can go in numerous directions...



Ah, I see. So Jones is in a bind, but the Giants aren't...No shit Sherlock, the Giants have options, but are any of then good options?

Let's see what they are if he continues undistinguished:

Cut him - Save $$$
Trade him - get a 5th(?) rnd pick
Let him walk - hope for a comp pick
Keep him and exercise 5th yr option at $20 mill with the team close to the cap(maybe)

I guess you are right - just say fuck it and start over.


No shit sherlock...what are you, in 3rd grade? Just because you keep missing it in creating a valid argument, don't blame me.

You said the Giants are in a bind if Jones doesn't improve...and I keep telling you they are not.

They picked a guy early in the draft, he doesn't become the guy but he is still under a rookie contract and his cost isn't a penalty next year if he stays on the roster or not. Or they can trade him for whatever as others have mentioned above and help even mitigate that cost further. Do you really think there is a shortage of QBs that will be available in FA or via trade to bridge the NYG until it finds the next promising guy in the Draft to put under center?

A new bind isn't created because it didn't work out with Jones, that's just a sunk cost. A bind would be if they keep creating new guaranteed monies on Jones because they cannot determine if he is the guy, or put up a larger long-term deal for him and he continues to not improve during it. Those would be new binds...
I would love to know  
Dnew15 : 11/17/2021 8:35 am : link
how much input Judge has during the draft process and draft day decisions.

How are Judge, Petit and Abrams NOT running this show at this point?

googs  
Lines of Scrimmage : 11/17/2021 8:53 am : link
I believe Judge has had significant input on the roster. However he did not select Jones and nobody truly knows where he stands on him. You can still make a assessment on his ability as HC regardless of his feeling pertaining to QB. This idea that "he did not get select his QB" is short sighted. It should be he has earned the right.

This often extends to the GM with "He inherited the HC". Again short sighted.

RE: I agree...  
Section331 : 11/17/2021 9:00 am : link
In comment 15455960 bw in dc said:
Quote:
It's an oversight not to mention trading Jones after this year as a legitimate choice and option.

And, to me, that is the BEST idea if it's still unclear that Jones is the answer after this year.


If they're not going to exercise his option (I'm not suggesting they won't), then trading Jones absolutely should be on the table.
RE: googs  
Jimmy Googs : 11/17/2021 9:04 am : link
In comment 15456265 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
I believe Judge has had significant input on the roster. However he did not select Jones and nobody truly knows where he stands on him. You can still make a assessment on his ability as HC regardless of his feeling pertaining to QB. This idea that "he did not get select his QB" is short sighted. It should be he has earned the right.

This often extends to the GM with "He inherited the HC". Again short sighted.


Lines - got it, if Judge has significant input on the roster then I agree it changes the calculus and timing on his stay here.

However, we actually don't know how much "input" he had and where. I would suggest much less than is often mentioned here. Providing input isn't driving the roster build.

Further, I also can't reconcile that he actually has significant input but somehow that doesn't extend to his input on a "de facto" starting QB. Not logical.
RE: RE: RE: You just described how Jones is the one in a bind if he can’t  
section125 : 11/17/2021 9:05 am : link
In comment 15456234 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15456212 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 15456075 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


distinguish himself. The Giants could alleviate that for him by not realizing it and continuing to pay him to play QB, but then they are just taking on that bind.

They have options and can go in numerous directions...



Ah, I see. So Jones is in a bind, but the Giants aren't...No shit Sherlock, the Giants have options, but are any of then good options?

Let's see what they are if he continues undistinguished:

Cut him - Save $$$
Trade him - get a 5th(?) rnd pick
Let him walk - hope for a comp pick
Keep him and exercise 5th yr option at $20 mill with the team close to the cap(maybe)

I guess you are right - just say fuck it and start over.



No shit sherlock...what are you, in 3rd grade? Just because you keep missing it in creating a valid argument, don't blame me.

You said the Giants are in a bind if Jones doesn't improve...and I keep telling you they are not.

They picked a guy early in the draft, he doesn't become the guy but he is still under a rookie contract and his cost isn't a penalty next year if he stays on the roster or not. Or they can trade him for whatever as others have mentioned above and help even mitigate that cost further. Do you really think there is a shortage of QBs that will be available in FA or via trade to bridge the NYG until it finds the next promising guy in the Draft to put under center?

A new bind isn't created because it didn't work out with Jones, that's just a sunk cost. A bind would be if they keep creating new guaranteed monies on Jones because they cannot determine if he is the guy, or put up a larger long-term deal for him and he continues to not improve during it. Those would be new binds...


Ok, I got it. Jimmy is the only one that determines what is or is not a bind.

Isn't your last paragraph basically what I said?

But forget, You win.
Re. Daniel Jones  
Gruber : 11/17/2021 9:07 am : link
You'd be getting more touchdowns with Teddy Bridgewater. He's an UFA after this season, so just go out and sign him if you don't think there's a worthwhile QB attainable in the draft.
And as I keep saying: I want Gettleman out of the building. Away from this roster.
No it isn't what you said.  
Jimmy Googs : 11/17/2021 9:10 am : link
You said Jones not improving puts the Giants in a bind, and it doesn't.

Continuing to commit to Jones via time & new guaranteed money AND him not improving puts them in a bind. Then they are wasting time, money and passing on other alternatives.

hope this has been helpful...
Starting QB Salary  
Lenny in Indy : 11/17/2021 9:10 am : link
Quote:

Good read
Go Terps : 11/16/2021 6:12 pm : link : reply
...

RE: Jones's option - I disagree that the most pragmatic approach is to let Jones play out the season at $8.4M. A more pragmatic scenario is to trade him and use whatever pick(s) you get for him to help rebuild the roster with young cost-controlled talent. If the draft yields a quarterback (be it in the first round or elsewhere) then great. If not, the FA market will have options cheaper than $8.4M that will provide similar level of play at the position. That approach is win/win: gain something for Jones, reduce the cap hit at QB.


The only starting QBs making under $10M are on rookie contracts.

There are no decent vets making under $25M.

There may be cheaper options, but they probably don't lead to more wins and offer no upside.

I would not pick up the 5th year option. If Jones improves between now and the end of next season I'd consider signing him to a modest extension.

The cheapest and highest upside bet is to head into 2023 with a 2022 draft pick or 2023 rookie (or a much improved Jones). I don't think signing a vet does much to improve the team or trajectory.

I don't see the big deal  
fkap : 11/17/2021 9:10 am : link
about retaining Judge, bringing in a new GM.

Is there any world in which he isn't on the hotseat for next year? If he wants to hold on to this job, he conforms to the new GM, not the other way around.

We don't know where JJ falls on the totem pole in the player acquisition group. My view from the cheap seats (and the view of many last year sitting next to me up here in the nosebleed section) is that Judge got increased say as DG's stock fell. Hasn't exactly worked out so great. If the dynamic worked, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Judge gets reduced input in the new regime.

Or, maybe he didn't get much say, and this isn't his fault. In that case, his power arrangement remains the same when a new GM is brought in.

Next year's GM, whether it is DG or a different butt in the chair, is going to have limited ability to effect change. Keeping JJ makes for a handy scapegoat a year from now, giving the new GM full authority to create his own regime in a year when greater player movement is possible.
RE: I haven’t seen a persuasive argument for exercising the option.  
giantstock : 11/17/2021 9:15 am : link
In comment 15456178 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
First of all, it absolutely IS fully guaranteed upon exercise. That rule changed a year ago.

If Jones is great the next two months, maybe the decision gets harder. As things stand, it’s important to keep the books clean for 2023. 2022 is already a mess - such a mess that I might keep Gettleman on as a lame duck, with restricted authority, so a new GM can come into a better situation. It’s quite an achievement to be as cap-strapped as the Giants are with a cheap QB and a crappy roster.


Maybe your definition of what's a "persuasive argument" is bias?

Maybe he hasn't performed very well because his OL sucks, his Tight Ends suck, his number 1 RB and top WR's are consistently hurt?

So because you want to bury your head in the sand on these factors, the argument you then call it "unpersuasive?"

What makes you so convinced without-a-doubt that this guy can't be something like Tannehill? I'm not saying he will but based on above team factors on offense - there is the possibility. That's hwy you keep him UNLESS YOU KNOW you can get better.
Ugh...  
Dnew15 : 11/17/2021 9:20 am : link
when's the last time an NFL team had two picks in the top 6 (Barkley/Jones) in back-to-back years and neither are likely to get 2nd contracts.
Googs  
Lines of Scrimmage : 11/17/2021 9:20 am : link
Look at the recent two drafts and FA acquisitions.

Heavy SEC (Mckinney, Thomas, Olujari). Heavy secondary investment. Heavy special team focused additions.

Look closely at most of the FA additions. They have deep ties to Judge.

I find it hard to understand how anyone thinks that Judge has not had significant input into the roster other than QB which I am not certain where he stands.
RE: Ugh...  
UConn4523 : 11/17/2021 9:26 am : link
In comment 15456290 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
when's the last time an NFL team had two picks in the top 6 (Barkley/Jones) in back-to-back years and neither are likely to get 2nd contracts.


Probably more often than you think.
RE: Googs  
Jimmy Googs : 11/17/2021 9:28 am : link
In comment 15456291 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
Look at the recent two drafts and FA acquisitions.

Heavy SEC (Mckinney, Thomas, Olujari). Heavy secondary investment. Heavy special team focused additions.

Look closely at most of the FA additions. They have deep ties to Judge.

I find it hard to understand how anyone thinks that Judge has not had significant input into the roster other than QB which I am not certain where he stands.


Lines - you could be spot on and he does drive the bus more often that I suggested. We both don't know.

And the examples above aren't all that compelling. Some linkages but not anywhere close to a slam dunk. Good football players drafted when they should have been isn't a link. Other than Logan Ryan, what major free agent acquisition has a link to Judge.

No worries though, I see your point just have a different perspective on what constitutes "input" on the roster construction.
...  
BrettNYG10 : 11/17/2021 9:31 am : link
This quote by Mara is so dumb.

Quote:
Co-owner John Mara said this offseason that he wouldn’t measure Jones by “any specific benchmarks other than let’s win some more games.” The Giants are 3-6 and Jones has an 11-24 career record as a starter.
Giantstock: Where did I say the Giants should dump Daniel Jones?  
Big Blue Blogger : 11/17/2021 9:38 am : link
All I said was that I didn’t see much reason to exercise his Year 5 option. If he’s good enough to continue with in 2023, the Giants will try to negotiate a long-term deal, tagging him if necessary. So the downside of declining the option is the loss of some negotiating leverage. The downside of exercising the option is that they could be stuck with a $21MM 2023 salary for a player they no longer want.
BBB  
fkap : 11/17/2021 9:58 am : link
exactly. You don't commit to 21 million for a player you're not sure you want.

The leverage thing goes both ways. IF Jones ends up a guy they want to keep at a reasonable cost, but have already committed to the option, he isn't giving that up.
RE: Giantstock: Where did I say the Giants should dump Daniel Jones?  
christian : 11/17/2021 10:08 am : link
In comment 15456304 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
All I said was that I didn’t see much reason to exercise his Year 5 option. If he’s good enough to continue with in 2023, the Giants will try to negotiate a long-term deal, tagging him if necessary. So the downside of declining the option is the loss of some negotiating leverage. The downside of exercising the option is that they could be stuck with a $21MM 2023 salary for a player they no longer want.


I agree completely. I started a thread last month on the scenarios. This was my view:

Quote:

christian : 10/26/2021 3:55 pm : link
I think Jones will be the starting QB going into camp next year.

So let’s play this out, where they decline the 5th year option.

A) Jones shows management everything they need to prove he’s the guy
B) Jones shows management everything they need to prove he’s not
C) More ambiguity because of injuries, upheavals, etc.

So then:

A) If he’s the guy I’d wager he’s extended on a multi year deal, and if they cannot come to terms, he can be franchised
B) If he proves he’s not, they go their separate ways at no cost
C) If things are unclear they have a choice

I think the ~8M delta between the franchise tender and the 5th year option is a great insurance policy.

I don’t think there’s a good reason to not leave your options open.
RE: Starting QB Salary  
Go Terps : 11/17/2021 11:29 am : link
In comment 15456283 Lenny in Indy said:
Quote:


Quote:



Good read
Go Terps : 11/16/2021 6:12 pm : link : reply
...

RE: Jones's option - I disagree that the most pragmatic approach is to let Jones play out the season at $8.4M. A more pragmatic scenario is to trade him and use whatever pick(s) you get for him to help rebuild the roster with young cost-controlled talent. If the draft yields a quarterback (be it in the first round or elsewhere) then great. If not, the FA market will have options cheaper than $8.4M that will provide similar level of play at the position. That approach is win/win: gain something for Jones, reduce the cap hit at QB.




The only starting QBs making under $10M are on rookie contracts.

There are no decent vets making under $25M.

There may be cheaper options, but they probably don't lead to more wins and offer no upside.

I would not pick up the 5th year option. If Jones improves between now and the end of next season I'd consider signing him to a modest extension.

The cheapest and highest upside bet is to head into 2023 with a 2022 draft pick or 2023 rookie (or a much improved Jones). I don't think signing a vet does much to improve the team or trajectory.


There are several QBs making less than $8M (not in rookie deals) that would give you QB play at the same level of Jones or possibly better:

Tyrod Taylor $5.5M
Jameis Winston $5.5M
Jacoby Brissett $5M
Teddy Bridgewater $4.4M
Marcus Mariota $3.5M
Mitch Trubisky $2.5M
Mike Glennon $1.4M

All of those guys are scheduled to be FAs after this season. If 2022 is going to be the mess it looks like it's going to be, any of those guys + a draft pick is a better alternative to Jones at $8M.
All of those guys  
Dnew15 : 11/17/2021 11:32 am : link
give a team the same kind of value, upside and production as DJ.

That's why, as it stands right now, the Giants have to pass on the 5th year option.
RE: People have talked about nightmare scenarios  
djm : 11/17/2021 11:32 am : link
In comment 15456144 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The nightmare scenario is the Giants winning the last two games of the year to get to 7-10. That will invite Mara, the media, and the fans to chop up the season as best for what they want to believe. "Hey we went 6-5 after starting 1-5, and finished 2-0, and the arrow is pointing up and blah blah blah..."

Same shit, different year. Meaningless beyond obscuring the ability to self scout creating a false sense of optimism with the current group.


You don't know this. And the ONLY times they kept a HC thanks to some "meaningless" wins was last year and 2018 which were Shurmur and Judge's first seasons with the club, respectively. And they didn't really win any meaningless games last year anyway as they were literally one game out with one game left.

They fired McAdoo mid season. They fired Coughlin despite that team scoring 427 pts. They fired Shurmur in 2019 despite that very team going 2-1 down the stretch.

They might keep Judge because they don't want to fire a HC after 2 years that they have invested so much time and money into and they might win a few "meaningless" games along the way, but that doesn't mean what you think it means.

Again, they have fired more people than anyone since 2013. Kind of a big deal.

Unfortunately....  
Dnew15 : 11/17/2021 11:33 am : link
That's why no one is trading for Daniel Jones either.
maybe they need to stop firing HCs  
djm : 11/17/2021 11:34 am : link
and just draft better players. Go for the star rather than being so risk adverse.

It aint rocket science, we need better players. Players that rise up in the 4th not players that are along for the ride. And yes, I am talking about Jones. Clock is ticking.
djm  
Go Terps : 11/17/2021 11:40 am : link
I'm not arguing to fire Judge. I like Judge.

I'm arguing to enter 2022 with an outside GM, a different OC, and a different quarterback.
If you are gonna change either  
Giants73 : 11/17/2021 11:45 am : link
Change both. GM goes new GM should be able to come in and design the team. Whatever he likes stays, whatever he doesn’t goes.
I am where b-cubed is  
JonC : 11/17/2021 11:55 am : link
picking the option right now makes no sense, and Jones would need a huge finish, a total reversal of the previous 30+ games, to even try and tip the scales for me. Would be quite content going into his fourth year as the last chance, with the draft picks in hand and hopefully a cleaner cap ledger in '23.
RE: djm  
GiantTuff1 : 11/17/2021 11:55 am : link
In comment 15456418 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I'm not arguing to fire Judge. I like Judge.

I'm arguing to enter 2022 with an outside GM, a different OC, and a different quarterback.


From your lips to God's ears.
The bigger problem is GM  
JonC : 11/17/2021 11:56 am : link
and the timing of when to make a change, because of the alignment with Jones, Judge, etc. I think it's clear a new GM is in order, but highly doubt they're ready to move on yet from Judge or Jones for starters.
RE: RE: djm  
GiantTuff1 : 11/17/2021 11:56 am : link
In comment 15456450 GiantTuff1 said:
Quote:
In comment 15456418 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I'm not arguing to fire Judge. I like Judge.

I'm arguing to enter 2022 with an outside GM, a different OC, and a different quarterback.



From your lips to God's ears.


I should clarify... The first 2 are MUSTS.

And I'll trust Judge and the new GM's judgement on whether to keep Daniel Jones on this roster in 2022.
RE: Giantstock: Where did I say the Giants should dump Daniel Jones?  
Producer : 11/17/2021 11:58 am : link
In comment 15456304 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
All I said was that I didn’t see much reason to exercise his Year 5 option. If he’s good enough to continue with in 2023, the Giants will try to negotiate a long-term deal, tagging him if necessary. So the downside of declining the option is the loss of some negotiating leverage. The downside of exercising the option is that they could be stuck with a $21MM 2023 salary for a player they no longer want.


Tag Jones of necessary? He'll have to be playing like Russell Wilson to justify being tagged.
RE: The bigger problem is GM  
GiantTuff1 : 11/17/2021 11:59 am : link
In comment 15456452 JonC said:
Quote:
and the timing of when to make a change, because of the alignment with Jones, Judge, etc. I think it's clear a new GM is in order, but highly doubt they're ready to move on yet from Judge or Jones for starters.


So as Terps suggestions -- since the Giants already botched the timeline -- is you reset the clock on Judge and pair him with a GM to start a new timeline with those two as a package deal.

Let those two be the ultimate jury and executioners on Daniel Jones' fate in 2022 and beyond.
Tuff  
JonC : 11/17/2021 12:01 pm : link
Works for me, I'd even support trading Jones as I do think they're destined to change QBs.
So we are essentially at the midway point...  
bw in dc : 11/17/2021 12:05 pm : link
And, by my expectations before the season began, Jones is behind where I thought he needed to be for a quality year. I thought he needed to finish with 25+ TDs, a 7.5 YPA, a 2:1 TD/INT ratio, 67% completion, QBR 60+.

My thinking was Jones needed to get to these numbers so the offense could have a chance to score at least 24ppg or >. A target # that usually gets teams into the playoff hunt...

So, to those who say we should let this play out for Jones before we make a final judgment, which is fair, what our your expectations for Jones these last 8 games?

How many TDs? TD:INT ratio? Completion %? etc.

The big risk here is that the Giants slither into giving  
cosmicj : 11/17/2021 12:15 pm : link
Jones a Kirk Cousins like contract that slides them into QB Hell Central Headquarters. And this organization is so confused and reactive, that is a realistic possibility. And that’s true of Barkley’s 2nd contract, too, to a lesser extent.

I’m less worried about optimizing things than avoiding that disaster. Trade Jones; retire DG; hire an outside GM. Anything to avoid that scenario. Risk mitigation, man.
bw - was that your cue to get a ton of posts about how  
Jimmy Googs : 11/17/2021 12:15 pm : link
the OL has been decimated, the WRs all injured, Saquon out again, and a poor Garrett system?

because here it comes...



RE: The big risk here is that the Giants slither into giving  
Go Terps : 11/17/2021 12:23 pm : link
In comment 15456472 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Jones a Kirk Cousins like contract that slides them into QB Hell Central Headquarters. And this organization is so confused and reactive, that is a realistic possibility. And that’s true of Barkley’s 2nd contract, too, to a lesser extent.

I’m less worried about optimizing things than avoiding that disaster. Trade Jones; retire DG; hire an outside GM. Anything to avoid that scenario. Risk mitigation, man.


Horrifying scenario.

I believe Judge would jump at a chance to upgrade over Jones. Judge seems like a smart guy.
RE: RE: RE: The Giants aren't in a bind at all with Jones  
TheBlueprintNC : 11/17/2021 12:32 pm : link
In comment 15456092 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15456060 speedywheels said:


Quote:


In comment 15455984 Go Terps said:


Quote:


By the end of this season they will have played 49 games over 3 seasons since they drafted him. In today's NFL that is a lifetime and more than enough sample size to assess whether or not it's worth moving forward with him.

Right now Jones is one of the least productive starting quarterbacks in the NFL. I'm not saying that to knock him; it's just a fact. What is the risk in trading him?



You know what's also a fact? Jones has had absolute dogshit to work with on the OL and skill positions (and when he has had talent, it's been sitting on the sidelines most games), thus it's been pretty much impossible to fairly judge him.

But you - and others - conveniently overlook that.



No one's overlooked that. I've said many times the OL is brutal.

Fairly judging him is irrelevant. The concept of fair doesn't apply. That's pee wee league super fan bullshit.


So according to this time frame -if you take a look at Young Dan when he had 4 of the 5 OL named starters and yes that is w Solder and legit RB and a #1 WR -We fans should have seen a market improvement in all his numbers, Guess what it does, in fact puts him top 5 -Go thru and see his stats how much they jump.

Thats why there is such a disagreement about DJ -You see the uptick. This reminds me of all the Eli haters btw. You know who you are.. Even after the SB win giants fans undervalued Him ELITE. BTW the fact that Dan trained w Peyton and Eli and Cutliffe -and they all love him - I go with their acumen than uhh fans lol

So now if we add some monsters on the D and get some OL help back or traded for -This team goes into contention.

We have the coach -yes there are some growing pains w Judge -so what -hes the guy, reminds me of when Parcells took over -who? -he almost lost his job too -fans lol

Face it most fans are stupid, IMO The Mara family is too sensitive sometimes -"Fire Tom Coughlin!" remember that fans? lol idiots.

Garret is not the best but hes not the worst, just doesnt have much to work with -ok with having Freddie take over there

Graham -Keeper -The D starting to come together again and possibly a little more dependable. Now the Passrushers time. Ojaluri is a nice find BTW -Ellerson? Got good LBr Good DL and Good Secondary with X coming on. Another fans are stupid example -"Why Len Williams" lol Why add a stud Dave? lol Why trade away a pick for a Monster? lol A pick on the low range bc Jets are stupid.

GM look DG had enough time but unfortunately he couldnt build real depth fast enough bc of Reeeeech BUT his time must come to an end ala Accorsi A-The Rug "fire the Rug" remember lol Rug Made the greatest franchise Trade -aka ELI the Rug knew -magic. but fans needed the Rug fired lol

So here we are -Id keep Dave as a Snr. consultant in his retirement -personally i think the cancer had a lot to do with his first 2 seasons but thats just me, Team needs to Hire a GM that understands Judge and can find talent and is not thin skinned. Nothing else matters

IMO we have a very strong portfolio but many are too busy looking at some weakness and not understanding value..

Dont underestimate the ability of the masses to be wrong -most of the time.
RE: RE: The big risk here is that the Giants slither into giving  
Thegratefulhead : 11/17/2021 12:35 pm : link
In comment 15456486 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15456472 cosmicj said:


Quote:


Jones a Kirk Cousins like contract that slides them into QB Hell Central Headquarters. And this organization is so confused and reactive, that is a realistic possibility. And that’s true of Barkley’s 2nd contract, too, to a lesser extent.

I’m less worried about optimizing things than avoiding that disaster. Trade Jones; retire DG; hire an outside GM. Anything to avoid that scenario. Risk mitigation, man.



Horrifying scenario.

I believe Judge would jump at a chance to upgrade over Jones. Judge seems like a smart guy.
Judge seems driven and didn't daft Jones. Jones has the rest of the season to prove it to his boss or Judge is going to talk himself into one the college QBs.
measurable metrics  
fkap : 11/17/2021 12:58 pm : link
can be useful tools, but allowances have to be made when factors outside the control of the person being measured rear their ugly head. Sorry if that simple concept is difficult to grasp.

Evaluation can still be made, but metrics don't always tell the whole story.

I'm more interested in more in-depth metrics. How does DJ do when given time AND his receiver is open, for example. Merely checking the stats on NFL.com is not enough.
...  
Lenny in Indy : 11/17/2021 1:05 pm : link
Quote:

All of those guys
Dnew15 : 11:32 am : link : reply
give a team the same kind of value, upside and production as DJ.

That's why, as it stands right now, the Giants have to pass on the 5th year option.


Totally agree. I think you need to pass on the 5th year option right now. But my point is, you shouldn't be signing any of those guys to start. We're looking for better + upside, not the same kind of value. If you're signing a QB on the cheap you're better off rolling the dice on a rookie as a starter.
RE: Drafting a QB in the first round  
Go Terps : 11/17/2021 1:12 pm : link
I agree with JonC and others that have stated the Giants should not force a QB pick. They shouldn't - that's how they ended up with Jones.

Where I diverge from that opinion is with Matt Corral. If we're picking at 6 and he's there I think he's a great pick at that spot.

A guy that I'd love to land in the second round or later would be Louisville's Malik Cunningham. Good runner (16 TDs this year) and passer (8.6 AY/A) that might be a good value in round 2.

There are options if you trade Jones. Good options.
RE: Tuff  
GiantTuff1 : 11/17/2021 1:14 pm : link
In comment 15456458 JonC said:
Quote:
Works for me, I'd even support trading Jones as I do think they're destined to change QBs.


I would support that too if that destiny materializes as it appears is happening.

The interesting bit will be to see what Judge and New GM do with Jones. If Jones is jettison'ed quickly by Judge/GM it will be a major indictment of the Giants forcing themself onto Judge's tenure. They will even moreso owe it to Judge to reset the clock on him. Really interesting times coming up in Jints Land...
I just don't expect the Giants  
JonC : 11/17/2021 1:16 pm : link
to exhibit that level of self-scouting or honesty. I'd be pleasantly shocked, but still shocked. It would indicate at least some level of reversal.
RE: RE: The big risk here is that the Giants slither into giving  
GiantTuff1 : 11/17/2021 1:16 pm : link
In comment 15456486 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15456472 cosmicj said:


Quote:


Jones a Kirk Cousins like contract that slides them into QB Hell Central Headquarters. And this organization is so confused and reactive, that is a realistic possibility. And that’s true of Barkley’s 2nd contract, too, to a lesser extent.

I’m less worried about optimizing things than avoiding that disaster. Trade Jones; retire DG; hire an outside GM. Anything to avoid that scenario. Risk mitigation, man.



Horrifying scenario.

I believe Judge would jump at a chance to upgrade over Jones. Judge seems like a smart guy.


+100
...  
Lenny in Indy : 11/17/2021 1:17 pm : link
And both of those options are better than signing a vet to start. Vets that contribute to winning games for under 10mil (25?) are few and far between. You're off with a rookie and trubisky/mccoy for peanuts.
Mara  
TyreeHelmet : 11/17/2021 1:24 pm : link
"Mara has made it clear that it’s important to him that a coach doesn’t lose the locker room. The team hasn’t quit on Judge in either of his two seasons despite slow starts, so there’s no reason to expect a second-half collapse."

I love how the barometer of success now is the team not quitting or losing the locker room. Is it too much to ask to compete for a playoff spot? Or really shoot for the moon and compete for the division....?
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