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Draft Wire Luke Easterling: 3-Round Mock Draft (11/18)

M.S. : 11/19/2021 7:59 am

Here are the Giants selections:

Round One (#6) Ikem Ekwonu; OT; North Carolina
Round One (#8) Tyler Linderbaum; OL; Iowa
Round Two (#41) Christian Harris; LB; Alabama
Round Three (#69) Martin Emerson Jr; CB; Mississippi State.
Round Three (#72) Auburn EDGE Derick Hall; EDGE; Auburn

Giants are at their rope's end along their offensive line so snagging two in Round One makes a lot of sense. And while the Giants are desperate for pass rushers, an argument can be made they are equally desperate at ILB, so I have no problem whatsoever with Christian Harris at 41.

As for CB Marin Emerson Jr. at 69, I have no problem whatsoever with this player. My problem is a general sense of revulsion at spending ANY draft capital on the secondary given the vast amount of resources the Giants have already committed.

At 72 is Derick Hall, who I have not seen play, but he seems to be putting together a very nice season with 41 tackles; 7.5 TFL; and 5 Sacks. And at some point in the Draft, the Giants will look to find Lorenzo Carter's replacement and maybe this guy is the one.

Link - ( New Window )
Like the position pickings  
Chip : 11/19/2021 8:04 am : link
The 2 positions we need are OL and Edge rusher. Nothing else matters to me.
I like the Harris pick  
Lines of Scrimmage : 11/19/2021 8:07 am : link
I think ILB is a huge need on this team.
I should add that the Giants are pretty desperate  
M.S. : 11/19/2021 8:13 am : link

for a plus two-way TE, but none can be found on this Mock Draft.
I Think  
thevett : 11/19/2021 8:14 am : link
If one of the top edges are available. The Giants go edge, OL, OL or Wr, then Def and OL.
Harris in the 2nd round?  
cosmicj : 11/19/2021 8:49 am : link
I’m all for picking him there but can’t imagine he will last that long.
RE: I like the Harris pick  
jeff57 : 11/19/2021 8:50 am : link
In comment 15458018 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
I think ILB is a huge need on this team.


It is. Along with ER and OL.
Wouldn't have a problem  
jeff57 : 11/19/2021 8:51 am : link
With the first three picks.
RE: Harris in the 2nd round?  
jeff57 : 11/19/2021 8:53 am : link
In comment 15458045 cosmicj said:
Quote:
I’m all for picking him there but can’t imagine he will last that long.


Right now he's at best third best ILB. Devin Lloyd and Narobi Dean are ranked higher. Penn State's Smith might be higher than him as well.
interesting to see Hartman  
KDavies : 11/19/2021 8:55 am : link
as the top QB taken

I highly, highly doubt they go OL with their first two picks  
JonC : 11/19/2021 9:10 am : link
Not that DG wouldn't go off the farm and do it because they're absolutely a reactionary leadership group, but because there's likely to be an Edge in there they need just as badly.
RE: I highly, highly doubt they go OL with their first two picks  
FanMan : 11/19/2021 9:19 am : link
In comment 15458062 JonC said:
Quote:
Not that DG wouldn't go off the farm and do it because they're absolutely a reactionary leadership group, but because there's likely to be an Edge in there they need just as badly.


+1
Grabbing two OL in the 1st would not be a bad thing  
Beer Man : 11/19/2021 9:21 am : link
But the team also needs to bolster the pass rush so I wouldn't mind seeing an OL and ER in the first.
RE: RE: I highly, highly doubt they go OL with their first two picks  
Heisenberg : 11/19/2021 9:36 am : link
In comment 15458071 FanMan said:
Quote:
In comment 15458062 JonC said:


Quote:


Not that DG wouldn't go off the farm and do it because they're absolutely a reactionary leadership group, but because there's likely to be an Edge in there they need just as badly.



+1


This is probably the right take and man, that's too bad. Those two guys would change the line overnight from a weakness to a strength.
It's all about value  
JonC : 11/19/2021 9:37 am : link
Right now, I don't see two OL matching up with top 8 value.
RE: I highly, highly doubt they go OL with their first two picks  
anon837 : 11/19/2021 9:49 am : link
In comment 15458062 JonC said:
Quote:
Not that DG wouldn't go off the farm and do it because they're absolutely a reactionary leadership group, but because there's likely to be an Edge in there they need just as badly.

I think the big question here is not what they should do with the first two picks. It's who is going to make the picks? There is no guarantee DG is going to be around. And just as well, Mara might develop a brain and go outside of the family business to get a new GM. They might have a completely different view of things.
RE: It's all about value  
M.S. : 11/19/2021 9:52 am : link
In comment 15458083 JonC said:
Quote:
Right now, I don't see two OL matching up with top 8 value.

Hard to know how the value board ultimately shakes out, but I've got no problem forcing an O-lineman up a few notches in the hope we finally put this pathetic unit on the road to respectability. Without that, there are no winning seasons ahead.
Forcing first round draft picks  
JonC : 11/19/2021 9:56 am : link
has a ton to do with why this roster stinks. Let's stop doing it ...
RE: Forcing first round draft picks  
M.S. : 11/19/2021 10:02 am : link
In comment 15458091 JonC said:
Quote:
has a ton to do with why this roster stinks. Let's stop doing it ...

Have we "forced" picks, or have we just made shitty picks at the position we supposedly "forced?" In any event, no O-line... no winning seasons.
It's both, all of the above  
JonC : 11/19/2021 10:03 am : link
this group has drafted like fans do.
RE: Forcing first round draft picks  
jvm52106 : 11/19/2021 10:04 am : link
In comment 15458091 JonC said:
Quote:
has a ton to do with why this roster stinks. Let's stop doing it ...


I agree with you 95% but, one could argue that had we forced a need pick in 2018 Quentin Nelson would have been selected and the whole outlook from there could have been quite different.

But, I agree, doubtful we go Ol, OL in with first two picks. I can see Ol being two picks in the top 3 rounds just not 1 and 2 for us.
Not to hijack  
Harvest Blend : 11/19/2021 10:12 am : link
but for comparison sake Tankathon has this...

6. A.Hutchinson Edge Michigan
8. K.Green IOL/OT Texas A/M
41. Z.Johnson IOL Boston College
69. D.Wyatt DL Georgia
72. J.Jobe CB Alabama
Not sure I remember a year  
JB_in_DC : 11/19/2021 10:14 am : link
with so much consensus among this fanbase on what to do in the draft. Guess having two (early) firsts helps matters.
jvm  
JonC : 11/19/2021 10:22 am : link
Love the player but I'm drafting an OG #2 overall, I would've preferred a trade down if they didn't love a QB.
not  
JonC : 11/19/2021 10:24 am : link
drafting an OG #2 overall
Wager Hutchinson is gone by #6 unless 1-2 QBs move way up  
JonC : 11/19/2021 10:25 am : link
but I like that mock better.
I stopped reading  
k2tampa : 11/19/2021 10:27 am : link
when he said Ekwonu was from North Carolina.
RE: Forcing first round draft picks  
Heisenberg : 11/19/2021 10:34 am : link
In comment 15458091 JonC said:
Quote:
has a ton to do with why this roster stinks. Let's stop doing it ...


That's a fair argument and I haven't looked at the value of the board overall. But I'd say that both those guys seem pretty special to me. Ekwonu, in particular. I have developed an unreasonable attachment to him being one of our two first rounders. I love him. So sure, follow the board but the counter argument is that getting these two guys would put an end to the half measures that we've been doing for years with this line.
The Iowa OL is a C  
JonC : 11/19/2021 10:49 am : link
def not picking a C in the top 10. The question really becomes what do they think of Peart as the future at RT. I could see them deciding they need another OT prospect with a stronger pedigree, which could come into play with the Bears pick in terms of value match

I fully expect the Giants pick to be an impact player, and Edge should line up in value. And, this is no half measure, this is how you could get better at two spots of desperate need.
RE: RE: Forcing first round draft picks  
bw in dc : 11/19/2021 10:58 am : link
In comment 15458095 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 15458091 JonC said:


Quote:


has a ton to do with why this roster stinks. Let's stop doing it ...


Have we "forced" picks, or have we just made shitty picks at the position we supposedly "forced?" In any event, no O-line... no winning seasons.


That's spot on. Drafting for need is absolutely fine. We have just drafted the wrong players for those needs.

Because the same logic applies to BPA. You can pick who you think is the BPA, but if you miss it's still the same result as missing on the "need" pick.
I like ...  
Brown_Hornet : 11/19/2021 10:58 am : link
...Ekwonu and while I prefer Hutchinson, I think I really like J. Johnson
The narrative used to be  
allstarjim : 11/19/2021 11:04 am : link
That we should've drafted Chubb or Nelson at #2. Now that Chubb has had the injury woes he's suffered, you only hear Nelson.

Really hope Saquon has an extended run of good health for the next season and a half.
Grabbing two Offensive Linemen in Round 1 would be fine in 2022  
Jimmy Googs : 11/19/2021 11:05 am : link
Although I would probably move down with one of those early picks and pick up an extra first rounder in 2023, or a bunch of 2022 second round picks (unlikely a team has several).

Agree that you pick players not positions, but if there is not a QB that makes the grade next year, they should focus in on "players" at OL, OLB and TE...
RE: The narrative used to be  
JonC : 11/19/2021 11:07 am : link
In comment 15458154 allstarjim said:
Quote:
That we should've drafted Chubb or Nelson at #2. Now that Chubb has had the injury woes he's suffered, you only hear Nelson.

Really hope Saquon has an extended run of good health for the next season and a half.


The rub is the Giants would've drafted Chubb if Saquon was gone, and oh that would've been BBI Fun Part Deux.
C is generally considered to be  
ChicagoMarty : 11/19/2021 11:32 am : link
the second most important OL position after OLT

If Linderbaum is the real deal and could man the position in quality fashion for the next 10-12 years then I really don't have a problem with the use of a premium draft pick to garner him.

I am also in the camp of drafting an ILB with a high draft pick. I don't know if Harris is the guy. But the Jints sorely need a speedy, smart, tackling machine at ILB and a guy who can also effectively pass cover. We need a three-down player that is tough against the run and quick to cover the short zones in the passing game. I would argue that this position is as big a need on D as ER if not bigger.
The Cowboys have the class D in the NFC East if not the entire NFL. Quick name their ERs.
The Cows are doing it with speedy Lbs and talented cb's
Perhaps we should do the same...
Hartman as the top QB is surprising  
Go Terps : 11/19/2021 11:43 am : link
He's never been over 60% completions in college - a red flag for someone who isn't a big running threat.
RE: not  
AcidTest : 11/19/2021 11:45 am : link
In comment 15458119 JonC said:
Quote:
drafting an OG #2 overall


Cleveland apparently offered us #4 and their two second round picks to move to #2. I would have done that and taken Nelson at #4.

The biggest problem with this team is that we continue to try and build the team by signing high priced FAs instead of building through the draft. We spent $200M last offseason and it has produced nothing. Signing high priced FAs should be limited to teams that need one or two impact players to really be viable SB contenders. That certainly isn't us.
RE: Forcing first round draft picks  
BigBlueShock : 11/19/2021 11:53 am : link
In comment 15458091 JonC said:
Quote:
has a ton to do with why this roster stinks. Let's stop doing it ...

You have a long history of saying they force picks and draft for need, yet every player you want them to take is also a position of need and could be looked at as forcing the pick. You beg for edge every season. And I agree with you that it’s been a huge need, but literally any position they take can be considered a huge need. It seems they just don’t take the player you want so you feel like you have to spin it for some reason. It’s likely the two top edge rushers are gone when they pick. Taking the 3rd best would could be considered forcing the pick as well.

They desperately need OL and edge. It appears the talent lines up at those positions so I’m not sure why you feel like you have to get your premeditated shot in at them in the case they don’t take the player you want. If they take the two best OL in the draft, that is is no way, shape or form forcing a pick to simply fill a need. It’s ok to draft two OL if they have them higher on the board than the 3rd or 4th edge in the drat.
RE: RE: not  
jeff57 : 11/19/2021 12:01 pm : link
In comment 15458204 AcidTest said:
Quote:
In comment 15458119 JonC said:


Quote:


drafting an OG #2 overall



Cleveland apparently offered us #4 and their two second round picks to move to #2. I would have done that and taken Nelson at #4.

The biggest problem with this team is that we continue to try and build the team by signing high priced FAs instead of building through the draft. We spent $200M last offseason and it has produced nothing. Signing high priced FAs should be limited to teams that need one or two impact players to really be viable SB contenders. That certainly isn't us.


And Nick Chubb and Darius Leonard in round 2.
RE: C is generally considered to be  
JB_in_DC : 11/19/2021 12:02 pm : link
In comment 15458195 ChicagoMarty said:
Quote:
the second most important OL position after OLT


Center is the least important OL position. Just look at the salaries.
Shock  
JonC : 11/19/2021 12:06 pm : link
I'm no spinner, and right now it's pretty clear they're not optimizing those vital draft picks. christian basically posted my plan from a couple years ago not long ago, perhaps I'll repost it here. It looks much stronger and smarter than NYG's ...
If the 3rd best Edge is a better player than the best OL  
JonC : 11/19/2021 12:07 pm : link
pick the Edge. It's not complicated.
Thinking someone is the best player available and them actually  
Jimmy Googs : 11/19/2021 12:16 pm : link
being the best player does not always register here.

Case in point, Saquon Barkley and the 1000 threads since 2018 arguing it...
RE: RE: not  
Jimmy Googs : 11/19/2021 12:18 pm : link
In comment 15458204 AcidTest said:
Quote:
In comment 15458119 JonC said:


Quote:


drafting an OG #2 overall



Cleveland apparently offered us #4 and their two second round picks to move to #2. I would have done that and taken Nelson at #4.



all day long...
If the Giants used the first three picks  
Lines of Scrimmage : 11/19/2021 12:38 pm : link
on a corner, ILB and two way TE and those players become outstanding players nobody should be upset.

BPA. More better players means a better team imv.
Lorenzo Carter's replacement?  
Spiciest Memelord : 11/19/2021 1:24 pm : link
What the hell do we need to replace so badly there?
RE: The narrative used to be  
Spiciest Memelord : 11/19/2021 1:30 pm : link
In comment 15458154 allstarjim said:
Quote:
That we should've drafted Chubb or Nelson at #2. Now that Chubb has had the injury woes he's suffered, you only hear Nelson.

Really hope Saquon has an extended run of good health for the next season and a half.


Bbi'ers would have burned down this forum if we took a guard at 2.
RE: Lorenzo Carter's replacement?  
M.S. : 11/19/2021 2:01 pm : link
In comment 15458299 Spiciest Memelord said:
Quote:
What the hell do we need to replace so badly there?

In the grand scheme of things, Lorenzo Carter is not a problem. But he is not a real solution either, and the odds of a second contract here in NY are IMO near zero.

I liked the pick; I thought he had a nice rookie season, and a decent second one… but he never progressed from there, and the injury from last season hasn’t helped matters any.

Giants are in cap hell which is just another reason why this is Lorenzo Carter’s last season here.
I would try Carter at ILB before letting him go....  
No Where Man : 11/19/2021 2:04 pm : link
we would have nothing to lose there.....
Eh, Carter struggles to set the edge  
JonC : 11/19/2021 2:06 pm : link
more often than not, that's a fundamental problem for him and the rest of their Edges. Ojulari is better, because he's smarter and plays well with his hands, but he's got room to grow and get stronger with some age and weight training on him.
RE: RE: The narrative used to be  
Jimmy Googs : 11/19/2021 2:06 pm : link
In comment 15458303 Spiciest Memelord said:
Quote:
In comment 15458154 allstarjim said:


Quote:


That we should've drafted Chubb or Nelson at #2. Now that Chubb has had the injury woes he's suffered, you only hear Nelson.

Really hope Saquon has an extended run of good health for the next season and a half.



Bbi'ers would have burned down this forum if we took a guard at 2.


Definitely some of them would have. And then they would look ridiculous after he was named 1st Team All-Pro that rookie year and every year since.

But hey, Saquon and Will Hernandez have become cornerstone pieces for the franchise...
RE: Lorenzo Carter's replacement?  
BillT : 11/19/2021 2:09 pm : link
In comment 15458299 Spiciest Memelord said:
Quote:
What the hell do we need to replace so badly there?

Carter is gone after this season. Currently we have Roche as his replacement. Like the kid but Hutchinson or Karlaftis would look pretty good there as well.
A healthy Martinez  
JonC : 11/19/2021 2:10 pm : link
and McKinney is at least an average/good pair of ILBs. Need to find younger player(s) with similar skillsets to develop behind them. Ragland and Crowder aren't part of the solution, imv.

Carter's not an ILB, he struggles in traffic and doesn't play well in coverage space. Guys with this build rarely are good in space.
RE: I would try Carter at ILB before letting him go....  
BillT : 11/19/2021 2:11 pm : link
In comment 15458337 No Where Man said:
Quote:
we would have nothing to lose there.....

We’re not letting him go he’s going to be a FA
Carter seems to not be a good fit as an offline LB  
Spiciest Memelord : 11/19/2021 2:18 pm : link
and questionable inline...
Shock  
JonC : 11/19/2021 2:21 pm : link
Here's what I basically posted in the past, which christian picked up on and condensed as a fresh start.

- 2018 Giants cut Eli Manning save $33M
- 2018 Giants sign Foles or Tyrod 2/$12.5
- 2018 Giants draft Darnold (oops, can't win 'em all)

Moving forward with Saquon as the center of the offense ...

- 2019 Giants draft DE Josh Allen, and BPA defense or OL with #17 pick (I also knew they loved Dexter, but me not so much)

Which set us perfectly for, as I predicted NYG would pick top 5 in 2020 :

- 2020 Giants draft QB Justin Herbert

You have to have good at evaluating talent and stacking your board. You have to be careful reaching for a Daniel Jones unless you are fooking really sure, and I was not sold on him as a top 20 talent. I thought he was a better pick in the 2nd round, many seasoned scouts pegged him for the 3rd round. There is a lot of nuance to my detailed draft comments while the draft season is in motion you're either missing or now conflating in your mind after the fact.

I get it, you're frustrated just like me. I do not claim to be an NFL pro, but I sure as fook had a better plan for some of their most crucial foundational decisions AT THOSE TIMES. No hindsight.

Looks pretty fooking good now in hindsight tho, right?
to quote christian's well-put logical fallacy regarding the draft  
JonC : 11/19/2021 2:29 pm : link
"Today is the only day I will ever be able to address this issue, therefore I must pay whatever cost right away."

Wrong. Resist the temptation, pick the best players.
For 2021  
JonC : 11/19/2021 2:34 pm : link
my pick at #11 was Parsons ...

How would NYG look with Herbert at QB, and the front of the defense anchored by Leo, Allen, and Parsons?

This is basically why I'm disenchanted with NYG these days. Even a fooking amateur can build a better roster.
An amateur likely would  
Go Terps : 11/19/2021 2:42 pm : link
If you mapped out every possible scenario for the Giants' actions since 2017, what actually occurred would be 5% of preferred outcomes. It's like they intentionally chose the wrong paths at every opportunity. Amazing, really.
*would be in the bottom 5%  
Go Terps : 11/19/2021 2:42 pm : link
.
RE: RE: Forcing first round draft picks  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/19/2021 2:46 pm : link
In comment 15458095 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 15458091 JonC said:


Quote:


has a ton to do with why this roster stinks. Let's stop doing it ...


Have we "forced" picks, or have we just made shitty picks at the position we supposedly "forced?" In any event, no O-line... no winning seasons.

We have definitely forced picks.

The fortuitousness that would be required for BPA to have always just coincidentally lined up in recent years with the same position that every fan and beat writer (and in some cases, owner) has clamored for each year is so incredibly unlikely. And we've watched it play out each draft.
RE: Carter seems to not be a good fit as an offline LB  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/19/2021 2:49 pm : link
In comment 15458359 Spiciest Memelord said:
Quote:
and questionable inline...

Can you help illustrate what you mean by "offline" and "inline" LB?
Steep decline Eli is so bad  
Spiciest Memelord : 11/19/2021 2:50 pm : link
he needs to put up the numbers of hot young QBs playing in young innovative coach schemes like Foles, Goff and Wentz! -bbi
It's not really an accident though terps  
NoGainDayne : 11/19/2021 2:53 pm : link
when you operate with antiquated frameworks and valuation systems what you think is value is actually the antithesis of it.

IE we thought we got a great value with Hernandez when the league was moving away from stiffer guards to more mobile ones for a while but we were looking for a "hog mollie"

Saquon has been beaten to death.

But even if you look at the way we allocated dollars to the positions. The Rams pawned Ogletree off on us and we overspent on LW who we pursued like someone that could elevate a defense on his own but he can't.

The backup RBs and the way we continually allocate WAY to much money to the RB position.

Paying Golladay all that money AND drafting Toney. To all those that say they liked the line, they got injured blah blah.

Most teams know OL is harder and harder to find and you need to not only take a lot of shots but you need to have depth because of this scarcity. Even if we LOVED our starting 5 how we could not have allocated many more resources to that unit when it has been so bad and instead added all kinds of premium talent at skill positions without fixing that is criminal.

Especially when that was literally what brought down Reese with picks like Engram.

Acting like they are just guessing wrong gives them too much credit. They are actually organized in a way that makes them overvalue players that are less helpful to winning in the NFL.
RE: RE: The narrative used to be  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/19/2021 2:53 pm : link
In comment 15458303 Spiciest Memelord said:
Quote:
In comment 15458154 allstarjim said:


Quote:


That we should've drafted Chubb or Nelson at #2. Now that Chubb has had the injury woes he's suffered, you only hear Nelson.

Really hope Saquon has an extended run of good health for the next season and a half.



Bbi'ers would have burned down this forum if we took a guard at 2.

That's quite the insight for someone who registered on BBI this month.
RE: Steep decline Eli is so bad  
NoGainDayne : 11/19/2021 2:55 pm : link
In comment 15458392 Spiciest Memelord said:
Quote:
he needs to put up the numbers of hot young QBs playing in young innovative coach schemes like Foles, Goff and Wentz! -bbi


Wow just registered but has the pulse of BBI down. With a name like Spiciest Memelord. Man, you are DRIPPING with authenticity
RE: Steep decline Eli is so bad  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/19/2021 2:55 pm : link
In comment 15458392 Spiciest Memelord said:
Quote:
he needs to put up the numbers of hot young QBs playing in young innovative coach schemes like Foles, Goff and Wentz! -bbi

So this is your troll schtick? Come up with spicy hot takes and attribute them to the anonymous totality of BBI?

I'll go ahead and offer a hot take of my own - your current handle won't even last until December.
I forgot who it was Dunk but I do chuckle to myself  
NoGainDayne : 11/19/2021 3:01 pm : link
anytime I think of the proposed theory that this is part of the Giants PR strategy to send people like this to BBI.

Lord knows you are going to have to get pretty creative to keep spinning this disaster.
RE: RE: Carter seems to not be a good fit as an offline LB  
Spiciest Memelord : 11/19/2021 3:04 pm : link
In comment 15458389 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15458359 Spiciest Memelord said:


Quote:


and questionable inline...


Can you help illustrate what you mean by "offline" and "inline" LB?

ILB and MLBs almost always play offline and need to be stout against the run and have a bit of fluidity for the run and pass coverage. And 4-3 OLBs don't strictly play on the line. Carter seems to be strictly suited as a pass rushing specialist.
RE: It's both, all of the above  
Milton : 11/19/2021 3:11 pm : link
In comment 15458097 JonC said:
Quote:
this group has drafted like fans do.
Then why are so many fans upset with them? I don't think the Giants force picks any more than every other team in the league. They use free agency to give them flexibility in the draft and try to match value with need as best they can without departing from their draft board. And your report that the Giants had AVT as their guy if they hadn't traded down demonstrates that (because even though they were ready to use their first round pick on him, they ultimately didn't use any of their picks on OL). If they were forcing picks they would've picked an OL somewhere on days 2 or 3 (either that or AVT wouldn't've been an option in round one).

One thing is for damn sure and it's that the Giants do not draft like fans do. And I hope they don't hire and fire like fans do, too. I want to say Gettleman and Judge back next year! Patience was rewarded following disappointing 2006 and 2010 seasons.
Milton  
JonC : 11/19/2021 3:18 pm : link
They stink at the draft, and other than trading down in the last draft as you outlined, they very much draft like fans do. Agree to disagree.

We do agree on hoping they figure it out and are rewarded for patience. But, I'm ready to move on to the next GM at the same time, DG's not the right dude to run the show, imo.
RE: RE: RE: Carter seems to not be a good fit as an offline LB  
Angel Eyes : 11/19/2021 3:38 pm : link
In comment 15458401 Spiciest Memelord said:
Quote:
In comment 15458389 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15458359 Spiciest Memelord said:


Quote:


and questionable inline...


Can you help illustrate what you mean by "offline" and "inline" LB?


ILB and MLBs almost always play offline and need to be stout against the run and have a bit of fluidity for the run and pass coverage. And 4-3 OLBs don't strictly play on the line. Carter seems to be strictly suited as a pass rushing specialist.

He can't even rush the passer that well.
RE: RE: RE: Carter seems to not be a good fit as an offline LB  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/19/2021 4:06 pm : link
In comment 15458401 Spiciest Memelord said:
Quote:
In comment 15458389 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15458359 Spiciest Memelord said:


Quote:


and questionable inline...


Can you help illustrate what you mean by "offline" and "inline" LB?


ILB and MLBs almost always play offline and need to be stout against the run and have a bit of fluidity for the run and pass coverage. And 4-3 OLBs don't strictly play on the line. Carter seems to be strictly suited as a pass rushing specialist.

But the "offline" and "inline" terminology... that's something that you made up?
I am not opposed to going OL with both first round picks  
BigBlueNH : 11/19/2021 4:33 pm : link
if the value is there. Just watching what teams like Dallas and the Pats do with competent blocking makes me think our entire team would be uplifted if we could sustain drives on a regular basis.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Carter seems to not be a good fit as an offline LB  
Spiciest Memelord : 11/19/2021 5:02 pm : link
In comment 15458437 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15458401 Spiciest Memelord said:


Quote:


In comment 15458389 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15458359 Spiciest Memelord said:


Quote:


and questionable inline...


Can you help illustrate what you mean by "offline" and "inline" LB?


ILB and MLBs almost always play offline and need to be stout against the run and have a bit of fluidity for the run and pass coverage. And 4-3 OLBs don't strictly play on the line. Carter seems to be strictly suited as a pass rushing specialist.


But the "offline" and "inline" terminology... that's something that you made up?

I guess NFL fans mainly think in terms of sam, mike and will, whatever they are nowadays. But in college ball a lot of defenses play 3-3 stack and 3-4 tite (along 'traditional' 4-2 nickel) to counter spread offenses, and so what they usually recruit and train are LBs that play off the line and you can broadly categorize as requiring agility and athleticism to play in space against pass and run.

The traditional 3-4 ER LB or versatile OLB who play on the line is not as prevalent. It's a game of geometry.
RE: Eh, Carter struggles to set the edge  
AcidTest : 11/19/2021 5:55 pm : link
In comment 15458339 JonC said:
Quote:
more often than not, that's a fundamental problem for him and the rest of their Edges. Ojulari is better, because he's smarter and plays well with his hands, but he's got room to grow and get stronger with some age and weight training on him.


Agreed. We have had problems setting the edge in the run for years. Carter is part of that problem. I think he's a capable backup but not a starter. Ojulari and Roche have much higher ceilings.
You know what is sad  
cosmicj : 11/19/2021 5:59 pm : link
Is that Jon’s plan involves picking one if the biggest busts in recent NFL history (Darnold) and it would still be miles better than where we are. If we had that core, we would be excited about the future. But here we are.
RE: Shock  
AcidTest : 11/19/2021 6:04 pm : link
In comment 15458363 JonC said:
Quote:
Here's what I basically posted in the past, which christian picked up on and condensed as a fresh start.

- 2018 Giants cut Eli Manning save $33M
- 2018 Giants sign Foles or Tyrod 2/$12.5
- 2018 Giants draft Darnold (oops, can't win 'em all)

Moving forward with Saquon as the center of the offense ...

- 2019 Giants draft DE Josh Allen, and BPA defense or OL with #17 pick (I also knew they loved Dexter, but me not so much)

Which set us perfectly for, as I predicted NYG would pick top 5 in 2020 :

- 2020 Giants draft QB Justin Herbert

You have to have good at evaluating talent and stacking your board. You have to be careful reaching for a Daniel Jones unless you are fooking really sure, and I was not sold on him as a top 20 talent. I thought he was a better pick in the 2nd round, many seasoned scouts pegged him for the 3rd round. There is a lot of nuance to my detailed draft comments while the draft season is in motion you're either missing or now conflating in your mind after the fact.

I get it, you're frustrated just like me. I do not claim to be an NFL pro, but I sure as fook had a better plan for some of their most crucial foundational decisions AT THOSE TIMES. No hindsight.

Looks pretty fooking good now in hindsight tho, right?


There's no question the Giants tried to build around Manning for far too long. Mara allowed Eli's contributions to the franchise to interfere with his judgment about when it was time to let him go. DG bought into that to a large extent, and then compounded the problem by making a whole raft load of bad FA moves.

I wanted Josh Allen in 2019. I also wanted to trade #37 for Rosen. I would have been OK with taking Jones or Lock at #17, but was fine punting the whole QB decision for another year. I was fine with D. Lawrence at #17.

There was no way to know in 2019 whether the Giants would have been able to draft Herbert in 2020. Herbert could have had a bad year or been hurt in 2019. I also doubt the Giants would have drafted Herbert in 2020 if they had picked Darnold in 2018.
Not exactly sure how you draft Darnold in 2018 and  
Jimmy Googs : 11/19/2021 6:13 pm : link
Saquon is the center of the offense.

It's either or...
RE: Not exactly sure how you draft Darnold in 2018 and  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/19/2021 6:26 pm : link
In comment 15458504 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Saquon is the center of the offense.

It's either or...

I think that's Jon's point. Version A is at the top, and it's a non-Saquon scenario (which yields Darnold), and then version B is below that, and it's a Saquon-centric scenario that yields them Herbert.
It's just ridiculous the decision making that has gone for years now  
Jimmy Googs : 11/19/2021 6:33 pm : link
with Gettleman & rest of the Front Office. Some of the greatest hits...

* keeping Eli in the saddle
* thinking the 2018 roster could actually compete
* making Solder the highest paid OL in history
* missing on some quality QBs in 2018 draft...
* ...and then not trading out of #2 overall pick to take a RB
* panicking on Jones with #6 overall pick
* using all those draft picks on Baker and other CBs and missing on every one
* spotting an opportunity with Leonard Williams but misreading negotiation process
* providing Jones with no offensive playmakers until his 3rd year
* NEVER stabilizing the Offensive Line

but maybe Milton is right, we should try and extend Getts....
RE: RE: Not exactly sure how you draft Darnold in 2018 and  
Jimmy Googs : 11/19/2021 6:40 pm : link
In comment 15458513 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15458504 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


Saquon is the center of the offense.

It's either or...


I think that's Jon's point. Version A is at the top, and it's a non-Saquon scenario (which yields Darnold), and then version B is below that, and it's a Saquon-centric scenario that yields them Herbert.


Yeah, don't follow the typing/scenarios. Then what are Foles and Tyrod doing up there too?

No worries, as it doesn't matter. 2018 should have always been about scouting a quality QB or getting out of that #2 pick to me. They missed on the roster, the QB in place, the QBs available and the value of that #2 pick versus defaulting with a RB...
My plan in 2019  
JonC : 11/19/2021 7:04 pm : link
reflects SB was picked in 2018. Like I said, what I wrote above was in real time, not written now.
Acid  
JonC : 11/19/2021 7:06 pm : link
My point was you sign the veteran and bide your time, don't force the Jones pick, especially because I felt the Giants were headed for the 2020 top 5.

Fast forward to April 2020, I was right, and Herbert was there.

Posted all of this in real time.

...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 11/19/2021 7:10 pm : link
I can't believe there are posters who want to bring Gettleman back. I just...uh...(shaking head/throwing up arms)...
Milton  
Sean : 11/19/2021 7:24 pm : link
Quote:
Patience was rewarded following disappointing 2006 and 2010 seasons.

If 2006 and 2010 were disappointing, what are these seasons? The 2006 team started 6-2 before getting slammed with injuries. They still made the playoffs and only lost by 3 on the road in Philly. The 2010 team went 10-6 and were a shitty 7 minutes from getting a bye in the NFC.

Are you seriously comparing the current state to either of those seasons?
RE: ...  
Go Terps : 11/19/2021 7:28 pm : link
In comment 15458557 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
I can't believe there are posters who want to bring Gettleman back. I just...uh...(shaking head/throwing up arms)...


Some people have lost all conception of what the Giants are.
Sean...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 11/19/2021 7:36 pm : link
The '06 & '10 Giants were LIGHTYEARS better than this team. The comparisons are insane.

GT, I just don't get it. I don't know how a rational person looks @ DG's tenure & goes, 'Yeah! Let's bring him back!' He's done incalculable harm to this organization. I remember when the dude who followed Parcells was an obscenity on this website. Well, DG makes him look like a football savant.
SF  
Go Terps : 11/19/2021 7:45 pm : link
It has to be the sports fan version of Stockholm Syndrome or something.

It used to be that a sub-.500 record was viewed with disdain. Shit, Coughlin nearly got fired in 2006 for going 9-7 and making the playoffs. I was at the Saints game that year when fans were chanting "Tom must go". Now there will be people claiming progress and optimism if we finish 7-10 or 8-9.

The standards have plummeted.
RE: SF  
Sean : 11/19/2021 7:51 pm : link
In comment 15458571 Go Terps said:
Quote:
It has to be the sports fan version of Stockholm Syndrome or something.

It used to be that a sub-.500 record was viewed with disdain. Shit, Coughlin nearly got fired in 2006 for going 9-7 and making the playoffs. I was at the Saints game that year when fans were chanting "Tom must go". Now there will be people claiming progress and optimism if we finish 7-10 or 8-9.

The standards have plummeted.

Sadly, it’s happened to Mara. Remember his comments after 2009? He was livid with an 8-8 finish. There should be a case study on this.
GT.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 11/19/2021 7:51 pm : link
Yeah, it is amazing. Again, I just don't get it. I used to have friends who would check in on me after a Giants loss & they don't even bother anymore because they know I've become so apathetic/numb to the losing.

I just hope Mara isn't one of the Miltons of the world. If he pulls this injuries excuse...I, uh, will not be pleased.
Sean.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 11/19/2021 7:52 pm : link
That '09 team would probably beat this '21 Giants team by 3 touchdowns. If memory serves, they started 5-0 before getting waxed in the Superdome.
There are still a portion of Giant fans blaming Reese!  
Sean : 11/19/2021 7:52 pm : link
.
Sean.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 11/19/2021 7:56 pm : link
People blaming Reese need to find religion.
RE: Acid  
AcidTest : 11/19/2021 8:13 pm : link
In comment 15458556 JonC said:
Quote:
My point was you sign the veteran and bide your time, don't force the Jones pick, especially because I felt the Giants were headed for the 2020 top 5.

Fast forward to April 2020, I was right, and Herbert was there.

Posted all of this in real time.


The fact that you were right is just happenstance because nobody could have known in 2019 that the Giants would be able or willing to draft Herbert in 2020. That does not mean that the Giants should have drafted Jones at #6 or at all in 2019. (As I said, I would not have hated picking Jones at #17, but my preference was to trade #37 for Rosen.) But it does mean that you cannot take "credit" for being "right" in 2019 that the Giants would be able to draft Herbert in 2020.

Let us say the Giants cut Eli in 2019 and signed a veteran as you suggest as a "stopgap." And then some other team drafts Herbert in 2020. Then what?

It was well known that DG loved Herbert and would have picked him over Jones. But my guess is that he was afraid that if he did not draft Jones he might well miss out on both. That fear might have been enough to justify drafting Jones at #17, but not at #6 IMO. DG's answer of course was that he was sure Jones would go long before #17. My answer to that is what I said, namely take Lock at #17, trade #37 for Rosen, or build the rest of the team and get the QB later.

Later could have been this year in fact. Why? Because the Giants were in a position to draft Fields or M. Jones this year. When you suck as long as the Giants have, you will almost always be drafting high enough the next year to have a chance at drafting a premier QB. M. Jones also slipped all the way to #15. So even if the Giants were picking say 17th, they could have easily traded up in front of NE to take him.
RE: My plan in 2019  
Jimmy Googs : 11/19/2021 8:28 pm : link
In comment 15458552 JonC said:
Quote:
reflects SB was picked in 2018. Like I said, what I wrote above was in real time, not written now.


As does mine, but for 2018...
RE: RE: Acid  
bw in dc : 11/19/2021 8:33 pm : link
In comment 15458590 AcidTest said:
Quote:

Later could have been this year in fact. Why? Because the Giants were in a position to draft Fields or M. Jones this year. When you suck as long as the Giants have, you will almost always be drafting high enough the next year to have a chance at drafting a premier QB. M. Jones also slipped all the way to #15. So even if the Giants were picking say 17th, they could have easily traded up in front of NE to take him.


This is a very interesting point. Now, I would have drafted Slater. I mean, what a player thus far - just add water, stir, and, voila, a Pro Bowl caliber LT.

However, going Field would have been very bold and courageous. Overall, his season has been a struggle, but in his last two games versus San Fran and Pittsburgh Fields has showcased some high level/elite skills. He made a couple of throws in that Pittsburgh game that Jones could NEVER make. And that was very irritating... ;)
If you don't get Herbert in 2020  
JonC : 11/19/2021 8:33 pm : link
you're still free to keep looking, you're not committed to the wrong QB trapped squarely in QB Hell. Of course it's happenstance and a healthy degree of luck involved, but I'd rather be flexible and building the roster until I find the right QB.
Gettleman’s plans go like this...  
Jimmy Googs : 11/19/2021 8:42 pm : link
* I was wrong with Eli in 2018 so let me panic with Jones in 2019
* I was wrong with Beal in 2018 so let me panic with Baker in 2019
* I was wrong with OBJ in 2018 so let me try and fix it with Tate in 2019
* I was wrong with Solder in 2018-19 so let me try and fix it with Thomas in 2020
* I was wrong with Baker in 2019 so let me try and fix it with Bradbury in 2020
* I was wrong with Barkley in 2018 so let me hand this problem off to a new GM in 2022.

See the trend...


RE: If you don't get Herbert in 2020  
Sean : 11/19/2021 8:43 pm : link
In comment 15458602 JonC said:
Quote:
you're still free to keep looking, you're not committed to the wrong QB trapped squarely in QB Hell. Of course it's happenstance and a healthy degree of luck involved, but I'd rather be flexible and building the roster until I find the right QB.

I agree. I think so many get wrapped up in the Barkley pick, but over drafting Jones was worse.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 11/19/2021 8:45 pm : link
I tend to side on the 'We shoulda drafted Herbert in '20' to be somewhat disingenuous. Jones-for a rookie-showed a ton of promise in '19. So we're going to draft ANOTHER QB in '20 after how Jones performed in '19? I think that's a stretch.
RE: RE: If you don't get Herbert in 2020  
Jimmy Googs : 11/19/2021 8:51 pm : link
In comment 15458605 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 15458602 JonC said:


Quote:


you're still free to keep looking, you're not committed to the wrong QB trapped squarely in QB Hell. Of course it's happenstance and a healthy degree of luck involved, but I'd rather be flexible and building the roster until I find the right QB.


I agree. I think so many get wrapped up in the Barkley pick, but over drafting Jones was worse.


Both were overdrafted, and both were mistakes. Determining the lesser of two evils is just salt in the wound...
SF  
JonC : 11/19/2021 8:54 pm : link
You're reading me wrong.
RE: ...  
Go Terps : 11/19/2021 9:50 pm : link
In comment 15458606 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
I tend to side on the 'We shoulda drafted Herbert in '20' to be somewhat disingenuous. Jones-for a rookie-showed a ton of promise in '19. So we're going to draft ANOTHER QB in '20 after how Jones performed in '19? I think that's a stretch.


It's a stretch because of the way the Giants do business, but at the time it would have made a ton of sense. They probably would have been able to trade Jones for a first rounder+ at the time.

1. Draft Herbert
2. Trade Jones
3. Gain assets for Jones and a year of rookie QB pay scale
4. Improve at quarterback

No team should hesitate to draft a quarterback if one is available that grades higher than the one they currently have. Herbert is more talented than Jones by every objective measure; a sound policy framework would have seen the Giants draft Herbert without hesitation.
RE: RE: ...  
Mike in NY : 11/19/2021 10:14 pm : link
In comment 15458617 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15458606 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:


Quote:


I tend to side on the 'We shoulda drafted Herbert in '20' to be somewhat disingenuous. Jones-for a rookie-showed a ton of promise in '19. So we're going to draft ANOTHER QB in '20 after how Jones performed in '19? I think that's a stretch.



It's a stretch because of the way the Giants do business, but at the time it would have made a ton of sense. They probably would have been able to trade Jones for a first rounder+ at the time.

1. Draft Herbert
2. Trade Jones
3. Gain assets for Jones and a year of rookie QB pay scale
4. Improve at quarterback

No team should hesitate to draft a quarterback if one is available that grades higher than the one they currently have. Herbert is more talented than Jones by every objective measure; a sound policy framework would have seen the Giants draft Herbert without hesitation.


If a team knew Giants had to move Jones why would they give that sort of compensation?
RE: If you don't get Herbert in 2020  
AcidTest : 11/19/2021 10:36 pm : link
In comment 15458602 JonC said:
Quote:
you're still free to keep looking, you're not committed to the wrong QB trapped squarely in QB Hell. Of course it's happenstance and a healthy degree of luck involved, but I'd rather be flexible and building the roster until I find the right QB.


Agreed.
DG  
AcidTest : 11/19/2021 10:41 pm : link
has said repeatedly that he isn't afraid to draft over a current position, but that was never going to happen in 2020. No way he drafts Herbert after drafting Jones a year earlier.
RE: DG  
bw in dc : 11/19/2021 10:48 pm : link
In comment 15458627 AcidTest said:
Quote:
has said repeatedly that he isn't afraid to draft over a current position, but that was never going to happen in 2020. No way he drafts Herbert after drafting Jones a year earlier.


Right. Jones had too many boxes checked - Cutcliffe, Manning Camp, Eli-like demeanor, Fan of the Mannings, etc. Herbert, despite all of his talent, couldn't overcome that.

Until the QB problem is solved, the error was Barkley over Josh Allen.

I don't care who was pro-Allen or anti-Allen at BBI. What matters is the people paid big dollars to get these decisions correct, choked. And chose the door labeled "SAFE"...
A couple of holes on the roster  
Breeze_94 : 11/20/2021 1:13 am : link
that many people aren't talking about, besides OL, EDGE, and LB...

TE- Engram is likely gone. Rudolph should be a cap casualty IMO. Kaden Smith is a depth guy. Giants need to go find a do it all TE. I like Wydermyer from A&M in Round 2 or 3 if he makes it.

DL- Besides Williams and Lawrence, the Giants have just Raymond Johnson on the roster next year. Would not be surprised to see DL addressed with one of the first 5 picks.

And with 5 top 100 picks  
Breeze_94 : 11/20/2021 1:16 am : link
the Giants should be able to go BPA at any of these positions

RT
G
C
TE
DL
EDGE
LB

HM: CB but I believe this can wait as they have 2 starting caliber corners and Robinson/Holmes/Williams as depth
RE: And with 5 top 100 picks  
Angel Eyes : 11/20/2021 11:00 am : link
In comment 15458648 Breeze_94 said:
Quote:
the Giants should be able to go BPA at any of these positions

RT
G
C
TE
DL
EDGE
LB

HM: CB but I believe this can wait as they have 2 starting caliber corners and Robinson/Holmes/Williams as depth

Maybe safety if we let Peppers walk?
I typically don’t disagree with M.S., but  
STLGiant : 11/20/2021 12:06 pm : link
I still don’t believe you build a championship OL through high draft picks. Look at the Cowboys OL and how many Lombardi’s do they have recently with their top OL picks?

Look at the ‘86 Giants Super Bowl OL. Two undrafted USFL OL, two 8th round picks, one 3rd round pick…

Not an awesome tailback, but a phenomenal FB.

The Giants are all about defense, from the days of Huff, and LT. They need a pass rush first and foremost or any one of us could find an open receiver with the time opposing QBs have to pass the ball. FWIW.
RE: There are still a portion of Giant fans blaming Reese!  
FStubbs : 11/20/2021 2:23 pm : link
In comment 15458579 Sean said:
Quote:
.


A huge portion. The narrative is EA won those Superbowls, Reese prevented us from winning 4-5 Superbowls, and Gettleman is just still trying to clean up Reese's mess.
RE: Sean.  
FStubbs : 11/20/2021 2:26 pm : link
In comment 15458577 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
That '09 team would probably beat this '21 Giants team by 3 touchdowns. If memory serves, they started 5-0 before getting waxed in the Superdome.


The team the day Reese was fired would beat this team and I'm not kidding.
RE: RE: And with 5 top 100 picks  
Jimmy Googs : 11/20/2021 2:28 pm : link
In comment 15458751 Angel Eyes said:
Quote:
In comment 15458648 Breeze_94 said:


Quote:


the Giants should be able to go BPA at any of these positions

RT
G
C
TE
DL
EDGE
LB

HM: CB but I believe this can wait as they have 2 starting caliber corners and Robinson/Holmes/Williams as depth


Maybe safety if we let Peppers walk?


If a QB doesn't make the grade, the targeted positions that absolutely require some talent are OL, OLB/ER and TE.

Hope his rehab goes well, but Peppers should be done as Giant either way...
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Carter seems to not be a good fit as an offline LB  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/20/2021 4:18 pm : link
In comment 15458470 Spiciest Memelord said:
Quote:
In comment 15458437 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15458401 Spiciest Memelord said:


Quote:


In comment 15458389 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15458359 Spiciest Memelord said:


Quote:


and questionable inline...


Can you help illustrate what you mean by "offline" and "inline" LB?


ILB and MLBs almost always play offline and need to be stout against the run and have a bit of fluidity for the run and pass coverage. And 4-3 OLBs don't strictly play on the line. Carter seems to be strictly suited as a pass rushing specialist.


But the "offline" and "inline" terminology... that's something that you made up?


I guess NFL fans mainly think in terms of sam, mike and will, whatever they are nowadays. But in college ball a lot of defenses play 3-3 stack and 3-4 tite (along 'traditional' 4-2 nickel) to counter spread offenses, and so what they usually recruit and train are LBs that play off the line and you can broadly categorize as requiring agility and athleticism to play in space against pass and run.

The traditional 3-4 ER LB or versatile OLB who play on the line is not as prevalent. It's a game of geometry.

This was helpful.

For example, I was able to figure out that you're just the newest iteration of idiotsavant.
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