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WFT v. Dallas yesterday and an indictment of DG

Now Mike in MD : 11/22/2021 12:18 pm
I watched the WFT and Dallas game yesterday, and if ever the value of the OL was on full display it was these two games.

WFT had a QB with limited skill sets, one good WR, and backup to backups at TE. Yet they still moved the ball both running and passing the ball against a good defense.

Dallas with a very good QB and two good running backs were stymied and Dak was awful because the OL was a sieve.

The worst thing is that WFT has done this without spending a bunch of high draft picks. Lucas was a marginal starter who they signed, Cosmi is a rookie 2nd round pick, we know what Flowers is, and Tyler Larsen is a backup. But even the usual starting OC Roullier was a 6th round pick.

It is insane to me how poorly DG has done constructing this OL, even if SL and Gates hadn't gotten injured. This is the single greatest failing and it has hampered everything from being able to evaluate DJ to having a functioning offense.
Yes  
Jimmy Googs : 11/22/2021 12:23 pm : link
but you shouldn't need to watch the WFT or Dallas games to come to this conclusion...
RE: Yes  
Now Mike in MD : 11/22/2021 12:24 pm : link
In comment 15460649 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
but you shouldn't need to watch the WFT or Dallas games to come to this conclusion...


I hadn't already known but those two games put it in stark relief
Nothing here  
UberAlias : 11/22/2021 12:30 pm : link
we didn't already know.
Watching Dallas  
GiantsRage2007 : 11/22/2021 12:31 pm : link
Parsons sticks out too...

Good thing we don't need a good LB who can rush the passer smh
RE: Watching Dallas  
BigBlueJ : 11/22/2021 12:33 pm : link
In comment 15460670 GiantsRage2007 said:
Quote:
Parsons sticks out too...

Good thing we don't need a good LB who can rush the passer smh


Red flags.. remember? All those red flags...
RE: Nothing here  
Now Mike in MD : 11/22/2021 12:34 pm : link
In comment 15460664 UberAlias said:
Quote:
we didn't already know.


Apparently it is because some posters want DJ to light it up with the 31st ranked OL.
RE: RE: Yes  
Jimmy Googs : 11/22/2021 12:38 pm : link
In comment 15460651 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
In comment 15460649 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


but you shouldn't need to watch the WFT or Dallas games to come to this conclusion...



I hadn't already known but those two games put it in stark relief


The Giants have to change out the guys making the player evaluation decisions, particularly at OL, LB and CB. Oh hell, make that any and all positions.

Finding a decent UDFA in Gates and Left Tackle Thomas with the overall #4 pick in great OT draft year seems more akin to the "blind squirrel" analogy than actual competence at this point...

What is interesting is the other teams in  
Lines of Scrimmage : 11/22/2021 12:40 pm : link
our division all have elite OL that were drafted years ago and still playing at a high level.

WFT (Sherff), Eagles (Johnson, Kelce), Dallas (Martin, Smith).

Giants.......?

Our OL issues preceded DG and one promising (Gates) and one looking like a stud (Thomas) are out for the year or have been hurt for the majority of it.

I am most disappointed with DG for the WH pick and not drafting more OL after round three in his years here.
RE: Watching Dallas  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/22/2021 12:44 pm : link
In comment 15460670 GiantsRage2007 said:
Quote:
Parsons sticks out too...

Good thing we don't need a good LB who can rush the passer smh

We couldn't draft Parsons.

We needed a choir boy like Toney.

How often do you think Toney cleans his AR-15?
RE: RE: Nothing here  
UberAlias : 11/22/2021 12:45 pm : link
In comment 15460676 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
In comment 15460664 UberAlias said:


Quote:


we didn't already know.



Apparently it is because some posters want DJ to light it up with the 31st ranked OL.
DJ has been a polarizing debate with roughly 60% having made up their mind one way or another and entrenched themselves into a position they aren't going to come off of. The Oline significance is important in the debate only because it offers the possibility that Jones might be a good QB despite the production today, but it does not answer the question for if he actually is a good QB. So both sides can claim to be correct without disputing the facts about the importance of Oline.
Being disappointed in Gettleman for picking Will Hernandez  
Jimmy Googs : 11/22/2021 12:48 pm : link
doesn't make sense to me. He was a good Guard in college and should have been drafted around where he was. Unfortunately he never developed into a decent olineman in the NFL.

You should be disappointed in Gettleman moreso that Hernandez keeps making the roster and the starting OL lineup, and not as much for picking him...

RE: RE: Nothing here  
Jimmy Googs : 11/22/2021 12:51 pm : link
In comment 15460676 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
In comment 15460664 UberAlias said:


Quote:


we didn't already know.



Apparently it is because some posters want DJ to light it up with the 31st ranked OL.


Not only some posters, but also the NY Giant's GM and front office too because their the ones that selected that 31st ranked OL...
they're  
Jimmy Googs : 11/22/2021 12:52 pm : link
not their
RE: RE: RE: Nothing here  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/22/2021 12:52 pm : link
In comment 15460694 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15460676 Now Mike in MD said:


Quote:


In comment 15460664 UberAlias said:


Quote:


we didn't already know.



Apparently it is because some posters want DJ to light it up with the 31st ranked OL.



Not only some posters, but also the NY Giant's GM and front office too because their the ones that selected that 31st ranked OL...

And the front office that assembled such a shit OL apparently nailed it with their QB pick.

Occam's Razor would slice this board's collective throat.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Nothing here  
BigBlueJ : 11/22/2021 12:57 pm : link
In comment 15460696 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15460694 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 15460676 Now Mike in MD said:


Quote:


In comment 15460664 UberAlias said:


Quote:


we didn't already know.



Apparently it is because some posters want DJ to light it up with the 31st ranked OL.



Not only some posters, but also the NY Giant's GM and front office too because their the ones that selected that 31st ranked OL...


And the front office that assembled such a shit OL apparently nailed it with their QB pick.

Occam's Razor would slice this board's collective throat.


Well we will see tonight how much this coaching staff trusts this young QB by the plays they call.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Nothing here  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/22/2021 1:00 pm : link
In comment 15460703 BigBlueJ said:
Quote:
In comment 15460696 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15460694 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 15460676 Now Mike in MD said:


Quote:


In comment 15460664 UberAlias said:


Quote:


we didn't already know.



Apparently it is because some posters want DJ to light it up with the 31st ranked OL.



Not only some posters, but also the NY Giant's GM and front office too because their the ones that selected that 31st ranked OL...


And the front office that assembled such a shit OL apparently nailed it with their QB pick.

Occam's Razor would slice this board's collective throat.



Well we will see tonight how much this coaching staff trusts this young QB by the plays they call.

Let's put it on the line now, in advance.

I say they'll run the ball at least 50% of the time while the score is within 10 points. And they'll have a YPA of under 7 during that time as well.

All bets are off if they're down two touchdowns late in the game and padding stats.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Nothing here  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/22/2021 1:04 pm : link
In comment 15460703 BigBlueJ said:
Quote:
In comment 15460696 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15460694 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 15460676 Now Mike in MD said:


Quote:


In comment 15460664 UberAlias said:


Quote:


we didn't already know.



Apparently it is because some posters want DJ to light it up with the 31st ranked OL.



Not only some posters, but also the NY Giant's GM and front office too because their the ones that selected that 31st ranked OL...


And the front office that assembled such a shit OL apparently nailed it with their QB pick.

Occam's Razor would slice this board's collective throat.



Well we will see tonight how much this coaching staff trusts this young QB by the plays they call.


You don't expect them to play it safe? I do. That seems to be how they lean.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Nothing here  
Jimmy Googs : 11/22/2021 1:08 pm : link
In comment 15460703 BigBlueJ said:
Quote:
In comment 15460696 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15460694 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 15460676 Now Mike in MD said:


Quote:


In comment 15460664 UberAlias said:


Quote:


we didn't already know.



Apparently it is because some posters want DJ to light it up with the 31st ranked OL.



Not only some posters, but also the NY Giant's GM and front office too because their the ones that selected that 31st ranked OL...


And the front office that assembled such a shit OL apparently nailed it with their QB pick.

Occam's Razor would slice this board's collective throat.



Well we will see tonight how much this coaching staff trusts this young QB by the plays they call.


Lot of evidence on this already.

Assuming you are suggesting the injured guys coming back will tell us the correct tale...right?
Googs  
Lines of Scrimmage : 11/22/2021 1:09 pm : link
Snee was picked to spots later than WH. Not getting at least a very good OL at that spot has hurt the overall OL significantly. Sure was nice having a RG who rarely lost a physical battle and could also pull.
At the top of the pyramid, it's entirely DG's responsibility  
CT Charlie : 11/22/2021 1:50 pm : link
to find the best players. But I've got to question the ability of scouts and the position coaches who, presumably, were the primary evaluators of talent.

Even in the Reese era, we made OL a high priority (Pugh, Richburg, Flowers...)and we came up mostly empty. After the fact, Andrew Thomas seems like the only really good pick, and in his class you almost couldn't go wrong.
RE: Googs  
Jimmy Googs : 11/22/2021 1:55 pm : link
In comment 15460720 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
Snee was picked to spots later than WH. Not getting at least a very good OL at that spot has hurt the overall OL significantly. Sure was nice having a RG who rarely lost a physical battle and could also pull.


Loved Snee and agree not being able to say Hernandez is a good (or really even consistently average) Guard hurts.

My point is we have been saying that since the beginning of the 2019 season. He could have replaced since then, and that's the real disappointment...
it has been what 10 years now  
Chip : 11/22/2021 1:56 pm : link
since we have had a decent OL. This ruined the end of Elis career And in DGs defense he started with nothing on the OL when he arrived. Pugh and Richburg got over paid and missed a lot of games. Richburg did not last and has retired and Pugh is still getting hurt and missing games with the Cards. It would not bother me a bit if they went OL with both picks in the 1st round but it probably makes sense to find an edge rusher.
4-5 (3 out of 5 starters) players lost for the year  
djm : 11/22/2021 2:05 pm : link
just saying. 2 of 5 if Thomas is truly back, which I won't believe until I see it.

DG doesn't need to be defended because he won't be back but killing him for this season is weird. He did address the position, they are all hurt.
...  
shadow_spinner0 : 11/22/2021 2:45 pm : link
Quote:
The worst thing is that WFT has done this without spending a bunch of high draft picks. Lucas was a marginal starter who they signed, Cosmi is a rookie 2nd round pick, we know what Flowers is, and Tyler Larsen is a backup. But even the usual starting OC Roullier was a 6th round pick.


This has to be coaching issue, besides hopefully Thomas, it seems every OL we put on there is always bad. No matter how high the pick and who we sign, they always disappoint. Is it simply a coaching issue? Why can the eagles take a low draft pick who only started playing football a few years ago and turned him into a pro bowl caliber Tackle? It has to be coaching
'DG did address the position....'  
ColHowPepper : 11/22/2021 2:50 pm : link
That's the problem, he has addressed it in the draft and in FA and this is where we are. Injuries happen. Giants' drafting has been overall abysmal on the OL and DBs and LBs. Lots of times I watch a non-Giants' game it seems a team has a mid- to low-round OL pick stepping in and starting and playing adequately. Failure to address edge rusher (not sold on Ojulari, yet). The Gold Jacket pick? What's the production there? The grim truths are that there is little to choose between Gettleman and Reese as to who has been more ineffective and mired NYG as a League doormat. Results speak for themselves.
If you watched Dallas yesterday  
dlauster : 11/22/2021 3:00 pm : link
did anyone catch Zeke's ankle roll on the sideline tackle? I couldn't help but think of Saquon's oft injured body by comparison. Zeke was back in for the rest of the game with seemingly no issue.

RE: ...  
Jimmy Googs : 11/22/2021 3:19 pm : link
In comment 15460844 shadow_spinner0 said:
Quote:


Quote:


The worst thing is that WFT has done this without spending a bunch of high draft picks. Lucas was a marginal starter who they signed, Cosmi is a rookie 2nd round pick, we know what Flowers is, and Tyler Larsen is a backup. But even the usual starting OC Roullier was a 6th round pick.



This has to be coaching issue, besides hopefully Thomas, it seems every OL we put on there is always bad. No matter how high the pick and who we sign, they always disappoint. Is it simply a coaching issue? Why can the eagles take a low draft pick who only started playing football a few years ago and turned him into a pro bowl caliber Tackle? It has to be coaching


So the NYG have had numerous HC and OL coaches for the last 5 or 6 years.

Are you saying every single coach is a coaching issue here in putting a reasonably serviceable OL on the field?

doubtful...
RE: 4-5 (3 out of 5 starters) players lost for the year  
chuckydee9 : 11/22/2021 4:40 pm : link
In comment 15460802 djm said:
Quote:
just saying. 2 of 5 if Thomas is truly back, which I won't believe until I see it.

DG doesn't need to be defended because he won't be back but killing him for this season is weird. He did address the position, they are all hurt.


I mean most teams are missing some starting OL.. this is truly bullshit as if the OL was good before the injuries or at the end of last year..
Most teams are not down 3 starters on the OL  
djm : 11/22/2021 4:51 pm : link
And an additional 2 depth players as well. And if they are, their OL sucks as well.

Dallas lost 2-3 guys last year and they too struggled for most of the year.
RE: Most teams are not down 3 starters on the OL  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/22/2021 5:08 pm : link
In comment 15461004 djm said:
Quote:
And an additional 2 depth players as well. And if they are, their OL sucks as well.

Dallas lost 2-3 guys last year and they too struggled for most of the year.

For argument's sake, we all know who the three starters are, but who are the two depth players?

You aren't talking about the midsummer retirees that DG picked up on the fly, right? After he exhausted his spending spree everywhere except the OL?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Nothing here  
Bill in UT : 11/22/2021 5:22 pm : link
In comment 15460703 BigBlueJ said:
Quote:

Well we will see tonight how much this coaching staff trusts this young QB by the plays they call.


They've only got 3 plays- everyone runs a curl short of the sticks, Saquan between the tackles, and a trick play to Toney that fools no one.
Will Hernandez is a bust  
arniefez : 11/22/2021 5:48 pm : link
he's a below average guard and after 4 seasons in the NFL he still can't handle a simple stunt because DE's and LB's are too fast for him. For all his advertised run blocking we've seen none of it in the NFL. The last two years he was in college his teams at UTEP went 4-20. All 4 wins were in his junior year. The Giants drafted a guy #34 from a small conference that came from an 0-12 team. A lot of the scouting reports had him going in the 1st round. We'll never know how far he would have dropped if he wasn't a hogmollie.

I've mentioned this before talking about OSU and AL QBs. How do you evaluate players who only play inferior competition? Hernandez who is a strong guy. Playing at 325 in that conference probably was able to bully guys every week.

It's not just the Giants that missed on him though. Pretty much every scouting report when he came out college thought he'd be a plus starter. Only one had anything about him not being able to handle speed rushers inside.

Quote:
Hernandez has a shot at sneaking into the end of the first round, and he shouldn't last long if gets to the second round.

At the combine, Hernandez had an impressive workout with a faster than expected time in the 40-yard dash. Hernandez looks like a lock for the second round of the 2018 NFL Draft if he falls out of Round 1. He is a bull dozer in the ground game, routinely pushing defenders out of their gaps. Hernandez is very strong at the point of attack with a heavy base to help him get movement at the point of attack. He is shorter and lacks length compared to a lot of starting guards in the NFL, but he makes up for it with overwhelming strength.

Hernandez could use work on his pass protection for the NFL as he can have issues with speed and length. His strong base allows him to anchor well against bull rushes. Fast interior rushers and defensive ends who move inside in the sub package will be a challenge for Hernandez, but he has the potential to improve there to become a force as a starting guard in the NFL. He would fit best in a power-man scheme rather than a zone scheme.

Mike Mayock, NFL Network

"Will Hernandez is a great conversation, and teams are a little bit all over the board. He was 340 at the senior bowl, 327 at the Combine. Which guy are you getting? Either way, he performed outstanding. But really, I think the gap scheme, offensive schemes like him more than the zone scheme does, and that makes sense. He's a tough guy, better feet than you think. If he goes -- I think he's going to go somewhere between 24 and 40. So he could slide into the first round, and he's a nasty, tough guy."


We haven't seen much of the nasty tough guy in the NFL. It was probably a lot easier when he was the biggest and strongest guy on the field in his conference.

NFL Draft 2018: Giants' Will Hernandez scouting report | OL who 'wants to embarrass defenders' - ( New Window )
RE: If you watched Dallas yesterday  
ColHowPepper : 11/22/2021 6:22 pm : link
In comment 15460862 dlauster said:
Quote:
did anyone catch Zeke's ankle roll on the sideline tackle? I couldn't help but think of Saquon's oft injured body by comparison. Zeke was back in for the rest of the game with seemingly no issue.
Yes, remarkable, in respect of each player with 180 conclusions. I thought he might have suffered a fracture of the tibia or fibula.
We'll see if Hernandez finally develops  
Adam G in Big D : 11/22/2021 6:48 pm : link
after he signs with his next team.
PFF  
GruningsOnTheHill : 11/22/2021 7:09 pm : link
I was surprised to learn that the other three NFC East teams--Dallas, Philadelphia, and the Football Team--all have offensive lines ranked among the top 8 in the league.

Then you have the NYG offensive line at #31.
The Giants won two Super Bowls with David Diehl at Left Tackle  
Reese's Pieces : 11/22/2021 8:22 pm : link
You're not going to have three or four All-Pros on the line, but it helps if the other guys have a lot of heart and stay on the field.

It also helps if your RB and TE can help out with a chip or a blitz pickup, but the Giants didn't choose to go that way at those positions.
Washington’s OL sucks.  
bradshaw44 : 11/22/2021 9:54 pm : link
Some weeks an OL plays above their skill and things click. That’s what happened. Also, panthers suck.

Of course don’t tell skins fans. It’s super bowl or bust down here today. Dear lord this fan base goes from 0-60 at the slightest positive sign. It’s so frustrating. But I guess that’s what happens when you go 30 years without a super bowl.
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