Giants record with Barkley playing: 9-28 (.243)

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thanks dave

I understand your point, but this team wasn't winning with Eli Manning at QB. Or Odell Beckham at WR. Or anyone at any position.

The problems are deeper than one player.

Gettleman's legacy was always going to be Barkley and Jones, and right now, both look like terrible decisions.

easily one of the biggest busts in NFL history. Up there with Ki Jana Carter and Reggie Bush.

he had a great rookie year (still wasnt worth picking), but he has regressed--probably because of injuries. But right now I am not even sure he is an NFL starting caliber player and I am not joking or getting into hyperbole. Our offense looked so much better with Booker and Gallman. I don't care about draft positions; I don't care about atheltic talent. I am talking about football playing and SB stinks this year. I am more than happy to h ear he is injured, but I am not happy to hear that his in the lineup.

Absolutely should not be offered a second contract at the amount he is going to seek. . Good kid - works hard, has some explosive ability but he’s a liability in pass protection and he does not have the patience and vision of the great backs. Not to mention he’s got some injury risk.

which he is. if you can't pick up the blitz you should be on the bench. never mind his other weaknesses.

are they in any position to actually offer Saquon a second contract?

In comment 15463746 mittenedman said:

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easily one of the biggest busts in NFL history. Up there with Ki Jana Carter and Reggie Bush.

Tony Mandarich level

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this organization was just a black hole for talent. These guys could have had stellar careers if we weren't infested with mismanagement at every level.

Don't get me wrong, they didn't always do their part but in a different timeline the odell/saquon pair could have been legendary Giants.

In comment 15463760 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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A frightening thought. Get him out of the building - no "advisory" roles or anything. He cannot have a voice in anything related to those two players in particular. Frankly the three of them should exit the building together in a few weeks.

The guys us fans rely on to make good decisions thought Barkley was a better football player than Quenton Nelson.

Who needs a Hall of Fame G when your OLine sucks right?

Its truly unbelievable.

In comment 15463746 mittenedman said:

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easily one of the biggest busts in NFL history. Up there with Ki Jana Carter and Reggie Bush.

I would not call Reggie Bush a bust. He had 58 TDs and over 10k total yards jn his career. Was he worth #2 overall? No, but that draft aaa dogshit for the most part anyway

In comment 15463739 Eric from BBI said:

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I understand your point, but this team wasn't winning with Eli Manning at QB. Or Odell Beckham at WR. Or anyone at any position. The problems are deeper than one player. Gettleman's legacy was always going to be Barkley and Jones, and right now, both look like terrible decisions.

True it's not one player. But the team is markedly worse when Barkley does play.

My feeling is that the Giants continue to rely on him like it's his rookie year. But since then he's been good for the occasional spectacular run but absolutely destroys multiple drives in between them.

and he dances way too much.

The Giants need to find a sucker team and trade him.

Hes unable to keep the offense on schedule which keeps jones in 3rd and long and magnifies our biggest weakness - pass pro.

Its to the point the coaches even know they cant run the ball when Barkley plays. However he cant pass block either, and when he catches the ball he cant find the sticks.

A completely useless football player. At least he looks good in shorts.

In comment 15463755 markky said:

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which he is. if you can't pick up the blitz you should be on the bench. never mind his other weaknesses.

Definitely one of the biggest disappointments about him. He's really bad at blocking. And he doesn't finish any runs or fight for any extra yards. The talent is there but he simply hasn't produced.

If they dont bench Barkley for Booker who is clearly a better football player in almost all aspects, its a crime.

Booker (himself a JAG) has outplayed Barkley by a country mile and deserves to start. At least hes an NFL quality RB.

In comment 15463739 Eric from BBI said:

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I understand your point, but this team wasn't winning with Eli Manning at QB. Or Odell Beckham at WR. Or anyone at any position. The problems are deeper than one player. Gettleman's legacy was always going to be Barkley and Jones, and right now, both look like terrible decisions.

They made the playoffs because of Odell. Odell wasn’t holding them back from winning, he at least made plays.

Look at the Giants winning percentage when Odell was here. It's not good.

I'm not blaming Odell, but even Manning and Odell couldn't make this a good team.

(BTW, Odell shit the bed in the playoff game).

Bark Barkley".

Some of the players I complain about will probably be very good on another team. At least they will have some good games. We are a bad team. If they kept a great line in front of Eli, he would have more winning seasons. The NFL is too fast for Danny dialed in on one reciever. The line is historically bad, Garrett sucks, we are starting some of the wrong players over guys who have played better. This GM has made some good deals but he missed bad on critical players. The defense gets a break sometime because compared to the offense they look like the best part of the team. If we had a good offense and we were coached well the defense would be the weak link. They are not great either. This is a top down problem.

Unlike many, I believe this could be turned around quickly. Maybe not to a championship contender but to a winning team.

In comment 15463802 mittenedman said:

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If they dont bench Barkley for Booker who is clearly a better football player in almost all aspects, its a crime. Booker (himself a JAG) has outplayed Barkley by a country mile and deserves to start. At least hes an NFL quality RB.

Sad but true.

I don't buy the argument that the team is "worse" when Barkley plays. Just like I didn't buy the argument that the team was "worse" when Odell played.

Barkley looked like a future HOFer his rookie season. Injuries have derailed his career.

I guarantee you that defenses are a lot more nervous when Barkley is on the field than Booker.

In comment 15463822 Eric from BBI said:

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Look at the Giants winning percentage when Odell was here. It's not good. I'm not blaming Odell, but even Manning and Odell couldn't make this a good team. (BTW, Odell shit the bed in the playoff game).

At least they got to the play offs and Odell carried that offense there single handedly.

In comment 15463746 mittenedman said:

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easily one of the biggest busts in NFL history. Up there with Ki Jana Carter and Reggie Bush.

Stop.

KJC got injured before he could ever get started, and that was in an era were RBs didn't come back from knee injuries.

Bush wasn't anything like what he was supposed to be, but I wouldn't call him a bust - he was a good NFL RB with a valuable role. A lot like Robert Gallery was supposed to be the next Anthony Muñoz, but didn't get there yet was a good OG for a stretch.

Barkley has flashed and has had some success. Reggie Bush might not be the worst comparison in terms of expectations. But Barkley has become a china doll, unfortunately. And that's the risk that you take with RBs. And it's why taking a RB so high in the draft, no matter how talented they are, is problematic.

Nevermind that Barkley stops before the LOS sometimes so that he can start dancing to find a hole; sometimes I wonder if his speed works against him when it comes to the patience required to let a hole develop. Nevermind that his pass blocking has never improved. Nevermind that choosing him should have meant centering an offense around him and that supplementary effort was never truly attempted, let alone accomplished.

Barkley's not a bust, at least not in the way we generally think of it. He's a cautionary tale. And a wasted talent who could have been special, if he hadn't be drafted by a fool who never built the team around him that Barkley would have needed.

If DG had built a roster like the Titans, Saquon could possibly be on the same level as Derrick Henry in terms of impact. But DG reacts. He doesn't operate according to any sort of thought-out plan. And this is the result.

In comment 15463836 Eric from BBI said:

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I don't buy the argument that the team is "worse" when Barkley plays. Just like I didn't buy the argument that the team was "worse" when Odell played. Barkley looked like a future HOFer his rookie season. Injuries have derailed his career. I guarantee you that defenses are a lot more nervous when Barkley is on the field than Booker.

You're right. Injuries have derailed his career.

In 2018, was there any data available that might have helped an experienced GM know which positions were most likely to suffer injuries?

Was and is a microcosm of the issues with the current organization. These are, talent evaluation, player development, and a firm understanding of the modern NFL. SB clearly had holes in his game at Penn St. Nonetheless, these were overlooked by DG and co, as they had him rated at a perfect grade.

SB never developed into better player than he was at Penn St. in the NFL. His blocking skills lacked and he continued to struggle between the tackles.

Lastly, the Giants believed, and still believe, that the NFL is a game won by running the ball and stopping the run. This has not been relevant in some time.

In comment 15463822 Eric from BBI said:

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Look at the Giants winning percentage when Odell was here. It's not good. I'm not blaming Odell, but even Manning and Odell couldn't make this a good team. (BTW, Odell shit the bed in the playoff game).

Partly because Manning was washed. Say what you want about Odell not making the team a winner, but the offense was much better with him on the field. He wasn’t a net negative on the field like Barkley is.

Single handedly wins games like Odell did in 2016 you can make a comparison.

near the sideline and about 4-5 yards before the first down marker. He caught it and immediately looked up field to probably see the 2-3 Bucs coming up to tackle him.

However, the problem though is he couldn't get off his spot, at all. He shuffled his feet back and forth in some silly attempt to juke them all, and basically would up diving underneath them for like 1 yard after the catch because by that time they had all arrived.

Catch it and get upfield immediately like Kamara or Zeke would do. I don't think Barkley gets the first down but he would have gotten closer and since it was only 2nd down, it would have made he 3rd down play that much easier.

Just an example...

Is delusional

Booker came in last night and right away was knocking off 10 yd runs

Barkley looks good on paper but he does not run with authority....the Walther Football draft scouting report said Barkley does not like contact

I've noticed he dives for the ground before contact to avoid it. Walther was dead on

In comment 15463899 Les in TO said:

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Single handedly wins games like Odell did in 2016 you can make a comparison.

The difference in the 2016 team from the others Odell was on was the defense, not Odell. When the defense played better (in 2016), the team won. When the defense played like it did in the other years, the team lost. Odell didn't have any impact on the team from a W-L perspective. At least not to the point that the team became a winner. Amazed at how Giants fans have quickly forgotten just how bad the Giants were just a few years ago too.

Manning showed up for the playoff game.

His receivers dropped six passes in that game. Odell dropped three, including a TD when the Giants were very much in the game.

In comment 15463909 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

In comment 15463899 Les in TO said: Quote: Single handedly wins games like Odell did in 2016 you can make a comparison. The difference in the 2016 team from the others Odell was on was the defense, not Odell. When the defense played better (in 2016), the team won. When the defense played like it did in the other years, the team lost. Odell didn't have any impact on the team from a W-L perspective. At least not to the point that the team became a winner. Amazed at how Giants fans have quickly forgotten just how bad the Giants were just a few years ago too.

Eric cmon. He single handedly won them the Raven, Cincinnati and Cowboy games. And probably the Philly and Cleveland game too.

In comment 15463913 Eric from BBI said:

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Manning showed up for the playoff game. His receivers dropped six passes in that game. Odell dropped three, including a TD when the Giants were very much in the game.

What about those times Manning didn’t show up for playoff games? The sample size of one game doesn’t outweigh the entire season. You know better.

coming back year 1 after his surgery is tough, and it looks to me like he is more concerned with not re-injuring it. If the hole is there he runs, if not he bails. If we see the same next season then I will agree, but right now I think this is about getting his mind and confidence back.

so cool, insightful thread.

But am I the only one who believes the Line blocks better for Booker

hits harder, holds their blocks a bit longer when long pass play is the huddle call

These guys are human

I know if I were a lineman and saw the success Booker was having and effort he was giving- I'd try harder

whos going to kill themselves for a guy who dances about and then does a dive for the ground after a yard or two- answer very few

Hernandez for instance cannot pass block to save his life but he has opened holes for Booker

The Giants are still trying to prove they didnt make a horrific decision in drafting Barkley #2. Newsflash Dave G
You got suckered by a college level RB. He is never going to get fitted for that "Generational Gold Jacket"

In comment 15463909 Eric from BBI said:

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In comment 15463899 Les in TO said: Quote: Single handedly wins games like Odell did in 2016 you can make a comparison. The difference in the 2016 team from the others Odell was on was the defense, not Odell. When the defense played better (in 2016), the team won. When the defense played like it did in the other years, the team lost. Odell didn't have any impact on the team from a W-L perspective. At least not to the point that the team became a winner. Amazed at how Giants fans have quickly forgotten just how bad the Giants were just a few years ago too.

Disagree. The 2016 D was excellent. Odell also had huge game winning clutch catch and runs against Dallas Miami Baltimore and Cleveland. The defense may have pitched some gems but Odell was the reason they hit some home runs to win those specific games.

In comment 15463961 Batenhorst7 said:

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But am I the only one who believes the Line blocks better for Booker hits harder, holds their blocks a bit longer when long pass play is the huddle call These guys are human I know if I were a lineman and saw the success Booker was having and effort he was giving- I'd try harder whos going to kill themselves for a guy who dances about and then does a dive for the ground after a yard or two- answer very few Hernandez for instance cannot pass block to save his life but he has opened holes for Booker The Giants are still trying to prove they didnt make a horrific decision in drafting Barkley #2. Newsflash Dave G You got suckered by a college level RB. He is never going to get fitted for that "Generational Gold Jacket"

No Booker just takes it. Last night, there was one run (I think there was only six) where the line opened up a nice whole and Barkley basically fell forward for two yards. Any other JAG in the league gets four to five on it. A great running back might have gotten to the second level.

To watch Saquon Barkley touch to football anymore. I’ve reached that point. It’s essentially a wasted down now.

How he’s going to be on the bubble in training camp next year, think about that

He still looks like he doesn't have his legs or feet under him, he's stumbling and going to the ground which tells me his legs aren't there yet. ACLs are often a two-year rehab for some athletes, he may well be in that basket.

Either way, he's probably here with another chance in 2022 to prove he's still got it. He's only 25 in Febr, so I'm hopeful he will return to form.

In comment 15464022 JonC said:

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He still looks like he doesn't have his legs or feet under him, he's stumbling and going to the ground which tells me his legs aren't there yet. ACLs are often a two-year rehab for some athletes, he may well be in that basket. Either way, he's probably here with another chance in 2022 to prove he's still got it. He's only 25 in Febr, so I'm hopeful he will return to form.

Even with the injuries he still never showed any improvement in pass blocking, in fact it’s jumps off the screen how bad he is compared to other backs in the league

In comment 15463977 Les in TO said:

Quote:

In comment 15463909 Eric from BBI said: Quote: In comment 15463899 Les in TO said: Quote: Single handedly wins games like Odell did in 2016 you can make a comparison. The difference in the 2016 team from the others Odell was on was the defense, not Odell. When the defense played better (in 2016), the team won. When the defense played like it did in the other years, the team lost. Odell didn't have any impact on the team from a W-L perspective. At least not to the point that the team became a winner. Amazed at how Giants fans have quickly forgotten just how bad the Giants were just a few years ago too. Disagree. The 2016 D was excellent. Odell also had huge game winning clutch catch and runs against Dallas Miami Baltimore and Cleveland. The defense may have pitched some gems but Odell was the reason they hit some home runs to win those specific games.

That's kinda the point, it took a great D for those plays to matter. Once that D stopped playing at an elite level, it didn't matter - see 2017 and 2018.

In comment 15463985 GoDeep13 said:

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To watch Saquon Barkley touch to football anymore. I’ve reached that point. It’s essentially a wasted down now.

He can be explosive once he reaches the 2nd level

We would do ourselves and him a favor to trade him to a team that can figure out how to do that

I'm sure we could get a 5th or 6th rounder for him
maybe not- maybe he has no trade value at all

Im not sure

the organization, he may decide to move on from Barkley. Some team may decide there is enough upside to give up a 5th or 6th rounder, but I don't see anyone giving up more than that.

But Barkley is merely a symptom of the larger problem. DG is the guy who just bought a fixer-upper, but blew his home equity loan on a Lambo rather than a new roof.

what he did in college is now irrelevant. I would not consider him a winner, in fact, he might not even be one of their top 5 players on offense. I think Cleveland is at .500 or so the last 4 years with most other bottom 1/3 QBs.

I think we see a lot more Daniel Jones in Mayfield if he were a Giant. His 2018 and 2019 seasons happened and on teams with better personnel. 2020 looks to be an outlier.

In comment 15463775 TommyWiseau said:

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In comment 15463746 mittenedman said: Quote: easily one of the biggest busts in NFL history. Up there with Ki Jana Carter and Reggie Bush. I would not call Reggie Bush a bust. He had 58 TDs and over 10k total yards jn his career. Was he worth #2 overall? No, but that draft aaa dogshit for the most part anyway

At the rate Barkley is going he won't get near those numbers. If we call RG3 a bust, we have to call Barkley a bust. Same situation - great stats in his rookie year, terrible afterward.

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In comment 15464042 Batenhorst7 said:

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In comment 15463985 GoDeep13 said: Quote: To watch Saquon Barkley touch to football anymore. I’ve reached that point. It’s essentially a wasted down now. He can be explosive once he reaches the 2nd level We would do ourselves and him a favor to trade him to a team that can figure out how to do that I'm sure we could get a 5th or 6th rounder for him maybe not- maybe he has no trade value at all Im not sure

Because Barkley is not a running back. He's a gadget player.

was when he stopped dead in his tracks in the backfield after taking the hand-off - rarely do you see an RB get tackled while standing absolutely still with the ball in his hands.

In comment 15464067 bceagle05 said:

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was when he stopped dead in his tracks in the backfield after taking the hand-off - rarely do you see an RB get tackled while standing absolutely still with the ball in his hands.

LOL

I wonder what Ezikiel Elliott thinks of Saquon? Would love to hear his candid opinion

In comment 15464031 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

In comment 15463977 Les in TO said: Quote: In comment 15463909 Eric from BBI said: Quote: In comment 15463899 Les in TO said: Quote: Single handedly wins games like Odell did in 2016 you can make a comparison. The difference in the 2016 team from the others Odell was on was the defense, not Odell. When the defense played better (in 2016), the team won. When the defense played like it did in the other years, the team lost. Odell didn't have any impact on the team from a W-L perspective. At least not to the point that the team became a winner. Amazed at how Giants fans have quickly forgotten just how bad the Giants were just a few years ago too. Disagree. The 2016 D was excellent. Odell also had huge game winning clutch catch and runs against Dallas Miami Baltimore and Cleveland. The defense may have pitched some gems but Odell was the reason they hit some home runs to win those specific games. That's kinda the point, it took a great D for those plays to matter. Once that D stopped playing at an elite level, it didn't matter - see 2017 and 2018.

Odell was also a shadow of his former dominating self after that preseason injury in 2017. Not since sehorn’s acl tear was there ever a more devastating Giants preseason injury

In comment 15464067 bceagle05 said:

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was when he stopped dead in his tracks in the backfield after taking the hand-off - rarely do you see an RB get tackled while standing absolutely still with the ball in his hands.

I kept rewinding that play and watching it because I couldn't believe what I was seeing. He stopped. Stopped cold, right behind the LOS.

He's not the RB we were promised.