Chris Mara has tried to be a GM in the NFL twice. Once with the Giants, once with the Falcons. After his promotion, it boggles the mind that people think he doesn't have some level of influence over the product we're seeing on the field. It's been whispered that he and the Golden Child nephew create a shadow draft board. At the very least, we do know that every draft decision is "collaborated" - and between Chris Mara and the GM, who do you think wins those discussions if Mara insists?
It's the same as Snyder and Jerry Jones. An owner who thinks he's a GM.
Now this doesn't absolve Gettleman (he picked a RB with a top 10 overall pick the year before he drafted Barkley) who has made a number of dumb moves on his own. But who was it who decided Gettleman was a good GM to begin with?
Who was "blown away" by Judge when he was on no one's radar, then forced Garrett on him?
Let me repost this again, because it needs to be said again:
In 2012, we promoted Chris Mara to Senior VP of player personnel. How has our player personnel been since then? Isn't it interesting 2012 is the point where Reese turned from a good GM into an awful one?
We sucked in 2013 and said Gilbride was the problem and got rid of him.
We sucked in 2014 and 2015 and said Coughlin was the problem and got rid of him.
We did okay in 2016, then we sucked again in 2017 and said Reese was the problem and got rid of him.
We sucked in 2018 and said Eli was the problem and got rid of him.
We sucked in 2019 and said Shurmur was the problem and got rid of him.
We sucked in 2020 but pretended we didn't because the rest of the division sucked too.
We suck in 2021 and at this rate we'll say Gettleman (and maybe Judge) are the problems and get rid of them.
Then we'll suck again and 2022 and say Jones is the problem and get rid of him.
But who is still there from 2012?
But Gettleman is the one making all the decisions in terms of Roster development so right now he is the problem
and we basically have one good/decent player to build around in Andrew Thomas.
That is a joke.
No accountability. If his last name weren't "Mara" he'd have been sacked long ago with his record of futility.
The only hope is for enough people to say it until the media is forced to stop covering for the Maras and bring real scrutiny on the Giants Way (of nepotism). They scrutinized Jerry Jones, Dan Snynder, Al Davis, and Mike Brown, but avoid the Maras for some reason.
I think Marc Ross played a big part in things. Regardless, I always look at the changing of the organization with the 2012 draft after winning a SB where Eli was pressured for a good part of the season with a very inconsistent running game culminating in a HOF moment against SF while taking a beating. After that season the "consensus" went.
Wilson, Randle, Hosley, Robinson, Mosley, McCants, Kuhn.
IMO the decision should have been to cut most of the veterans on the lines, load up OL and use 2012 as a brief rebuild for Eli to finish out his career with hopefully a very good OL. Almost a decade later we are still searching to fix that issue.
Instead the organization has made different people the scapegoat but for me it all leads back to JM.
And when Gettleman is rightly fired, and we bring in a new GM, what happens when that GM and Chris Mara lock horns? Who wins the discussion? What direction does the franchise take? Or would the new GM simply be another stooge mired in the "Giants Way"?
Yeah, Mara pulled the trigger on EA anointing Gettleman as GM, but this is Gettleman's team.
However, after 2003 he tried to move from that position to be GM, meaning the position he had in 2003 wasn't "enough" for him, he wanted to be an actual GM. Then in 2012 he gets promoted, stops angling for GM jobs, and just coincidentally, the team's roster collapses.
Meanwhile the team finds "problems" everywhere else and gets rid of them, eventually getting rid of guys who weren't even there when the trouble happened.
But we shouldn't point our fingers at Chris Mara - who at this point is the last guy standing in personnel?
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but they're not getting fired. DG is just really bad at his job, and he can be fired.
And when Gettleman is rightly fired, and we bring in a new GM, what happens when that GM and Chris Mara lock horns? Who wins the discussion? What direction does the franchise take? Or would the new GM simply be another stooge mired in the "Giants Way"?
Chris Mara treats football they way he treats his horses. Something to do even though he sucks at both competently.
No accountability. If his last name weren't "Mara" he'd have been sacked long ago with his record of futility.
So if John Mara sees that the real awful decisions were borne by Chris Mara and not really by Reese or Getts, you think he would keep allowing this to go on?
John Mara may not be a good owner, but fairly certain he would rather win than lose...
Knicks hired some front office folks who have a clue and suddenly their terrible owner doesn't seem quite as terrible over the past year and a half. Same will happen to the Giants if John Mara hires someone competent. Please hire someone competent.
Yeah, Mara pulled the trigger on EA anointing Gettleman as GM, but this is Gettleman's team.
I'll agree that Gettleman ruined the cap, and set th eroster back many years. I'll also agree that the team was better the day Reese was fired than it is right now. Again, I am not absolving Gettleman. Our front office is arguably the worst in football right now.
However, once again, how much of that is Gettleman and how much of that is Chris Mara? The team sucked before Gettleman became GM. Gettleman isn't the reason the team was terrible in 2015, Gettleman's team was in the Superbowl that year.
remember: mara forced coughlin to fire hufnagel and tim lewis. the giants won a superbowl shortly thereafter. i think this made mara believe he knows how to run a football team and emboldened him to interfere in decison-making. remember, a few years later in 2013 mara forced coughlin to fire gilbride and bring in a new west coast OC to account for the deteriorated state of the OL. this lead to two 6-10 seasons, followed by an 11-5 season that came after he forced coughlin to retire.
so yes gettleman is a symptom. but if you get sick you should still treat the symptoms.
I’d point the finger at John Mara. As he has extended his influence and made a series of decisions, the franchise has gone down the toilet.
(Disclaimer: none of this absolves DG, who is terrible at his job.)
Knicks hired some front office folks who have a clue and suddenly their terrible owner doesn't seem quite as terrible over the past year and a half. Same will happen to the Giants if John Mara hires someone competent. Please hire someone competent.
It required Dolan to also admit he's not a GM. Chris Mara and the Golden Child are still in personnel.
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He absolutely needs to go. But thinking he's the problem, when this team sucked before he was GM, is limited thinking. We keep changing "the problem" every year without media scrutiny being directed at the Senior VP of player personnel, under whose watch the player personnel are among with worst in the league. How many of Gettleman's awful decisions are really Chris Mara decisions?
No accountability. If his last name weren't "Mara" he'd have been sacked long ago with his record of futility.
So if John Mara sees that the real awful decisions were borne by Chris Mara and not really by Reese or Getts, you think he would keep allowing this to go on?
John Mara may not be a good owner, but fairly certain he would rather win than lose...
I think he would allow it to continue, it's how dysfunctional family businesses work. Then of course there's the question if he has the authority on his own to even reign Chris in. It would take media scrutiny I think.
Part of why Dave was hired was most likely so they can continue to be involved in football decisions.
I think part of why Dave gets the brunt of the criticism is he takes the corporate approach and acts as if all decisions are his thus covering for others.
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In comment 15463971 FStubbs said:
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He absolutely needs to go. But thinking he's the problem, when this team sucked before he was GM, is limited thinking. We keep changing "the problem" every year without media scrutiny being directed at the Senior VP of player personnel, under whose watch the player personnel are among with worst in the league. How many of Gettleman's awful decisions are really Chris Mara decisions?
No accountability. If his last name weren't "Mara" he'd have been sacked long ago with his record of futility.
So if John Mara sees that the real awful decisions were borne by Chris Mara and not really by Reese or Getts, you think he would keep allowing this to go on?
John Mara may not be a good owner, but fairly certain he would rather win than lose...
I think he would allow it to continue, it's how dysfunctional family businesses work. Then of course there's the question if he has the authority on his own to even reign Chris in. It would take media scrutiny I think.
Not to get into details, but I know how dysfunctional family businesses work.
And I disagree completely that John Mara would allow it to continue, or that he doesn't have the authority to reign Chris Mara in.
Don't look for conspiracy theories here, these are GMs whose #1 main role is roster building/player acquisition and they have not done a good job. And Getts needs to go.
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In comment 15463999 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15463971 FStubbs said:
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He absolutely needs to go. But thinking he's the problem, when this team sucked before he was GM, is limited thinking. We keep changing "the problem" every year without media scrutiny being directed at the Senior VP of player personnel, under whose watch the player personnel are among with worst in the league. How many of Gettleman's awful decisions are really Chris Mara decisions?
No accountability. If his last name weren't "Mara" he'd have been sacked long ago with his record of futility.
So if John Mara sees that the real awful decisions were borne by Chris Mara and not really by Reese or Getts, you think he would keep allowing this to go on?
John Mara may not be a good owner, but fairly certain he would rather win than lose...
I think he would allow it to continue, it's how dysfunctional family businesses work. Then of course there's the question if he has the authority on his own to even reign Chris in. It would take media scrutiny I think.
Not to get into details, but I know how dysfunctional family businesses work.
And I disagree completely that John Mara would allow it to continue, or that he doesn't have the authority to reign Chris Mara in.
Don't look for conspiracy theories here, these are GMs whose #1 main role is roster building/player acquisition and they have not done a good job. And Getts needs to go.
I have experience working in dysfunctional family businesses too.
You may call it conspiracy theory, but the timeline matches up. The Senior VP of player personnel presides over player personnel that have been awful for a decade. Even if you believe the GM has final and full authority on this team (which as we know is highly debatable since the Giants openly talk about their "collaboration"), then the guy who has been in charge of player personnel certainly should be looked at.
Googs, you tell me why Chris Mara should be above scrutiny. Why?
My experience is, when this many things are going wrong in a system, there often is ONE, singular, problem, at or near the top or the root.
I'm not saying that model is doomed for failure, but its clearly not working here.
Perkins was already a accomplished coaching assistant and has a offense named after him that the Patriots still use today. He identified and hired two HOF future Head Coaches and other outstanding assistants.
Mississippi dodged a bullet getting Leach who is again doing again doing great work.
I don't think Judge is getting anywhere near a HC job again. His best hope is somehow salvaging his career here.
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There are many problems. But DG is a huge part of the reason we are in this mess we are today.
My experience is, when this many things are going wrong in a system, there often is ONE, singular, problem, at or near the top or the root.
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In comment 15464115 UberAlias said:
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There are many problems. But DG is a huge part of the reason we are in this mess we are today.
My experience is, when this many things are going wrong in a system, there often is ONE, singular, problem, at or near the top or the root.
That’s semantics, depending on how you chose to define the problem. Like casting a broad net saying the problem is poor engineering. Mara is accountable for everything. There is no question he is massive part of this. But DG is responsible for the roster, and he owns a massive share of the fault independent of Mara. He’s not simply a victim of his circumstances here in NY.
It should be clear from the top post that I'm pointing at Chris Mara as THE problem. Gettleman needs to go, and he's made a number of dumb decisions, but again, I think he's a symptom.
15% of the blame goes to John Mara for hiring DG, and then not replacing him in either of the past 2 off seasons, PLUS (as I believe) forcing Garrett onto Judge's staff, and more than likely not allowing a change last off season.
The players, Judge, and other coaches are NOT blameless, however it is very difficult to evaluate their performances given the inability to run or pass block NOR rush the passers consistently.
DG should resign today in the best interest of the franchise, and Garrett should be let go before dinner this evening.
i don't blame these coaches. even Garrett, with a better line, would be affective. not a true blue winner, but affective.
right now this roster is bottom heavy. too much sub par players in big spots.
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In comment 15464026 FStubbs said:
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In comment 15463999 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15463971 FStubbs said:
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He absolutely needs to go. But thinking he's the problem, when this team sucked before he was GM, is limited thinking. We keep changing "the problem" every year without media scrutiny being directed at the Senior VP of player personnel, under whose watch the player personnel are among with worst in the league. How many of Gettleman's awful decisions are really Chris Mara decisions?
No accountability. If his last name weren't "Mara" he'd have been sacked long ago with his record of futility.
So if John Mara sees that the real awful decisions were borne by Chris Mara and not really by Reese or Getts, you think he would keep allowing this to go on?
John Mara may not be a good owner, but fairly certain he would rather win than lose...
I think he would allow it to continue, it's how dysfunctional family businesses work. Then of course there's the question if he has the authority on his own to even reign Chris in. It would take media scrutiny I think.
Not to get into details, but I know how dysfunctional family businesses work.
And I disagree completely that John Mara would allow it to continue, or that he doesn't have the authority to reign Chris Mara in.
Don't look for conspiracy theories here, these are GMs whose #1 main role is roster building/player acquisition and they have not done a good job. And Getts needs to go.
I have experience working in dysfunctional family businesses too.
You may call it conspiracy theory, but the timeline matches up. The Senior VP of player personnel presides over player personnel that have been awful for a decade. Even if you believe the GM has final and full authority on this team (which as we know is highly debatable since the Giants openly talk about their "collaboration"), then the guy who has been in charge of player personnel certainly should be looked at.
Googs, you tell me why Chris Mara should be above scrutiny. Why?
Stubbs - you are all over the board on this.
First of all, I never said Chris Mara is above scrutiny. I just said stop with the conspiracy theories that he makes all the awful picks, the GM is just a patsy and John Mara is fine with that process. Chris Mara can be removed or stay for all I care because I don't think he is helpful nor harmful to the GMs job here.
And just because they collaborate on things (and I truly believe they do), that doesn't mean the GM is bringing good ideas or a good process to the table and to what gets collaborated. Nor does it mean the GM isn't more persuasive in selling his "awful" ideas than other people are at selling theirs.
Let's call a spade a spade. We have all heard Getty speak on a ton of topics, from draft process to analytics to building a roster. He is as transparent as it comes, and nobody is just using him as a mouthpiece while Chris Mara is acting like a mad football scientist behind the curtain. This team isn't improving and it's on Getts as he is driving the process.
He just misses on too many things and his approach to winning in today's NFL, roster building, positional awareness, timing of who and what kind of free agents to bring in are all out of date. He simply doesn't get enough things correct to fix this team.
Not for lack of trying and nor do I think the Giants front office is magically fixed with a new GM, but that required move is plainly obvious...
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He absolutely needs to go. But thinking he's the problem, when this team sucked before he was GM, is limited thinking. We keep changing "the problem" every year without media scrutiny being directed at the Senior VP of player personnel, under whose watch the player personnel are among with worst in the league. How many of Gettleman's awful decisions are really Chris Mara decisions?
No accountability. If his last name weren't "Mara" he'd have been sacked long ago with his record of futility.
So if John Mara sees that the real awful decisions were borne by Chris Mara and not really by Reese or Getts, you think he would keep allowing this to go on?
John Mara may not be a good owner, but fairly certain he would rather win than lose...
This take just doesn't track for me. John Mara is an elite owner of an NFL football team. The idea that he couldn't put family over the competitive nature of his football team seems silly.
Sorry Tom, but if you have these four things occurring, along with others, and you're not succeeding, it's more than a 15% problem. Getts seems like a terrible hire. What a gasbag.
Blame can get thrown around but these peploe arent going anywhere and if their kids get their hands on the keys to the orginization it will only get worse
Need to find a different guy...
DG
Judge
Garrett
Other assistants
various players
All could be the problem. The ultimate source of these problems start at the top and work their way down the list
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In comment 15463971 FStubbs said:
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He absolutely needs to go. But thinking he's the problem, when this team sucked before he was GM, is limited thinking. We keep changing "the problem" every year without media scrutiny being directed at the Senior VP of player personnel, under whose watch the player personnel are among with worst in the league. How many of Gettleman's awful decisions are really Chris Mara decisions?
No accountability. If his last name weren't "Mara" he'd have been sacked long ago with his record of futility.
So if John Mara sees that the real awful decisions were borne by Chris Mara and not really by Reese or Getts, you think he would keep allowing this to go on?
John Mara may not be a good owner, but fairly certain he would rather win than lose...
I think he would allow it to continue, it's how dysfunctional family businesses work. Then of course there's the question if he has the authority on his own to even reign Chris in. It would take media scrutiny I think.
John Mara is quoted saying that Chris couldn't be named GM because you cant fire an owner.
But Googs, I do agree that a competent GM could make the family issues fade away