now that does not mean Payton was the problem, but something clicked with that offense. The game against Indy was a thing of beauty from an offensive standpoint down the stretch in 2002.
RE: The offense did improve a lot when he took the duties away
now that does not mean Payton was the problem, but something clicked with that offense. The game against Indy was a thing of beauty from an offensive standpoint down the stretch in 2002.
Correct.
But it is more than a bit ironic that Sean Payton was considered to be inept as a play caller at the time.
In the long-run it cost us a chance at graduating up a tremendous coach in Payton, which is a far steeper price to pay than letting a archaic principled coordinator who has no future here, or Super Bowl winning future elsewhere go.
In the long-run it cost us a chance at graduating up a tremendous coach in Payton, which is a far steeper price to pay than letting a archaic principled coordinator who has no future here, or Super Bowl winning future elsewhere go.
Apples and oranges for me.
you are mixing up the years, 2000 was the chips being pushed into the middle after the Lions game. 2002 he relieved Payton of playcalling and we went on a nice offensive run, that culminated in an outstanding first half in SF, but then we blew it with our defense in the second half.
In the long-run it cost us a chance at graduating up a tremendous coach in Payton, which is a far steeper price to pay than letting a archaic principled coordinator who has no future here, or Super Bowl winning future elsewhere go.
now that does not mean Payton was the problem, but something clicked with that offense. The game against Indy was a thing of beauty from an offensive standpoint down the stretch in 2002.
Correct.
But it is more than a bit ironic that Sean Payton was considered to be inept as a play caller at the time.
I don't know about inept, they did respond pretty well initially when Payton took over play calling. He was a young play caller, I think he became too predictable and DC's had figured him out a bit. I wasn't on BBI then, but I didn't like the move. I liked Payton, and thought Fassel should have helped Payton work through it.
be excited that Garrett was relieved from his duties?
Not saying that at all. Judge clearly not happy with him (or trying to save his own butt).
But blood lust runs deep on this site.
You seem to be taking the reigns from FatMan as the resident curmudgeon who is more upset about fan reactions, than the team being a perennial bottom feeder!
I just posted on twitter that when that change was made, NYG points per game jumped from 12.7 to 26.9. If I recall, Fassel simplified the offense and stripped back the playbook to just focus Collins on using Tiki, Toomer and Shockey. He didn't want Collins overthinking things and it worked.
In this case, I think Garrett over simplified things thinking the OL couldn't handle anything. We'll see what happens when Kitchens opens it up, because he is almost forced to do that. The guy before you got fired so do what he didn't do. It's the inverse of Payton and Fassel really.
that turned out to be a pretty important moment and ended up going pretty well.
in hindsight Payton's issue had to be his fit with Kerry more than anything else. His offense and all the motions was just too much for him to process (and likely just ahead of its' time).
When Fassel took over they were 3-4 and ended the season 7-2 despite a garbage defense. That flea flicker vs. Indy is definitely on Kerry's giants highlight reel.
be excited that Garrett was relieved from his duties?
Not saying that at all. Judge clearly not happy with him (or trying to save his own butt).
But blood lust runs deep on this site.
Not even CLOSE to an "I told ya so," because I and others didn't. However ... I and others here were NOT happy when Garrett was named this team's OC. He pretty much did as expected - just look at his under-achieving Dallas teams, and that was the only resume we needed to see.
No blood lust here. Just relieved he's out. It was painful to watch. Even when there would be momentary successes. Same as when he coached Dallas.
now that does not mean Payton was the problem, but something clicked with that offense. The game against Indy was a thing of beauty from an offensive standpoint down the stretch in 2002.
Correct.
But it is more than a bit ironic that Sean Payton was considered to be inept as a play caller at the time.
I don't think it was about him being inept necessarily as he was an excellent play caller at times with great feel. I recall it was more about all the presnap motions and general over-complication especially presnap that didn't allow the players to play freely. Fassel "simplified" things and the offense took off.
Problem was Fassel was feeling a hot seat and by taking the reigns from Payton making him fall guy -- which he sort of was in reality at that time -- was a bridge that burned a relationship with Payton that would have benefited us long-term. That's what hurts to me.
I see no similarity to Garrett though except for blood is blood.
be excited that Garrett was relieved from his duties?
Not saying that at all. Judge clearly not happy with him (or trying to save his own butt).
But blood lust runs deep on this site.
Not even CLOSE to an "I told ya so," because I and others didn't. However ... I and others here were NOT happy when Garrett was named this team's OC. He pretty much did as expected - just look at his under-achieving Dallas teams, and that was the only resume we needed to see.
No blood lust here. Just relieved he's out. It was painful to watch. Even when there would be momentary successes. Same as when he coached Dallas.
BBI was THRILLED when Kevin Gilbride was fired. THRILLED. I don't know if there were more than 10 people here who wanted him to stay.
be excited that Garrett was relieved from his duties?
Not saying that at all. Judge clearly not happy with him (or trying to save his own butt).
But blood lust runs deep on this site.
You seem to be taking the reigns from FatMan as the resident curmudgeon who is more upset about fan reactions, than the team being a perennial bottom feeder!
Blood lust runs deep in every fan base when the team is losing year in and year out. This is not something unique to BBI.
And I expect we will see a bump in the offense resulting primarily from guys being spooked/energized by a coach being fired and a new voice leading the room. That is typical in most sports, but is usually temporary.
In the long-run it cost us a chance at graduating up a tremendous coach in Payton, which is a far steeper price to pay than letting a archaic principled coordinator who has no future here, or Super Bowl winning future elsewhere go.
Apples and oranges for me.
You're confusing two different seasons.
You're right, my bad. Mixing 2000 and 2002...
Same result though. We went on a run in 2002 to get into the playoffs off of that change.
I just posted on twitter that when that change was made, NYG points per game jumped from 12.7 to 26.9. If I recall, Fassel simplified the offense and stripped back the playbook to just focus Collins on using Tiki, Toomer and Shockey. He didn't want Collins overthinking things and it worked.
In this case, I think Garrett over simplified things thinking the OL couldn't handle anything. We'll see what happens when Kitchens opens it up, because he is almost forced to do that. The guy before you got fired so do what he didn't do. It's the inverse of Payton and Fassel really.
Good post. That's my recollection too.
Well the Giants certainly didn't learn anything from that
BBI was THRILLED when Kevin Gilbride was fired. THRILLED. I don't know if there were more than 10 people here who wanted him to stay.
Good times.
I'm not sure I agree with that. I was as big a KG defender as anyone here, and I recall his detractors being a very vocal minority. But my memory could be foggy!
Payton didn't know how to call a game back then though
I just posted on twitter that when that change was made, NYG points per game jumped from 12.7 to 26.9. If I recall, Fassel simplified the offense and stripped back the playbook to just focus Collins on using Tiki, Toomer and Shockey. He didn't want Collins overthinking things and it worked.
In this case, I think Garrett over simplified things thinking the OL couldn't handle anything. We'll see what happens when Kitchens opens it up, because he is almost forced to do that. The guy before you got fired so do what he didn't do. It's the inverse of Payton and Fassel really.
this is exactly how i remember things re: 2002.
I actually disagree that Garrett simplified things - I think he more tried to over control/over scheme things. He didn't trust his personnel to just go out, run plays, and take what the defense gave them. Instead he was constantly trying to scheme things open.
Occasionally it worked (Rudolph wheel route and Thomas TD) but that's not a sustainable way to run an offense and the team just had no identity - except poorly run, predictable, conservative concepts with the occasional trick play mixed in.
Kitchens needs to come in and just figure out the 10-20 best plays that fit with Jones (even if he has to go back to '19) and focus on those. Let Engram/Slayton/Ross work downfield and between them pick a good matchup and take 1 shot play per Q to keep safeties honest. Let Golladay/Toney/Shep work over the middle on slants/crossers and the occasional shot play. Let barkley/booker each serve as a dump off options. Play with tempo/no huddle to protect the OL and just take the 1 on 1's the defense gives them. Golladay and Toney can beat one on ones. Shepard too on the 20 plays he'll get in before his next injury.
BBI was THRILLED when Kevin Gilbride was fired. THRILLED. I don't know if there were more than 10 people here who wanted him to stay.
Good times.
I'm not sure I agree with that. I was as big a KG defender as anyone here, and I recall his detractors being a very vocal minority. But my memory could be foggy!
Section, BBI was thrilled when Gilbride was fired. Everyone here was saying "good riddance"... game had passed him by... thank God the Giants had move on, etc.
so whats the point? Payton didn't figure it out until he worked for Parcells.
Parcells wasn't an offensive mastermind. He's a defensive coach. Payton learned how to be a head coach from Parcells, but he didn't teach him to be a great play caller.
Are you saying change is bad? Change is inevitable. Sometimes change is necessary. Sometimes it works out. Sometimes it doesn’t. But change in anything, especially sports is inevitable.
Should we not want change when something isn’t working?
Are you saying change is bad? Change is inevitable. Sometimes change is necessary. Sometimes it works out. Sometimes it doesn’t. But change in anything, especially sports is inevitable.
Should we not want change when something isn’t working?
Not at all. I've already commented on this above.
I am simply pointing out that at the time, the hope was that Fassel had fixed things by diminishing and eventually letting Payton go. But lo and behold, it was only a short-term improvement. 2003 was a disaster and Fassel was fired. My point - if there is one - is simply a warning that this may not deal with the root problems.
Payton got a lot better between the time he was with the Giants and taking over New Orleans.
The Giants offense has improved the last three times a head coach has replaced the offensive play caller — Fassel > Payton, Gilbride > Hufnagel, Mcadoo > Gilbride.
expect 2022 to be a disaster. I think you have to roll with Judge and Jones for another season, and that doesn’t give me hope things will turn around. I hope it does, and I’m wrong.
In 2003, Giants fans had at least experienced winning seasons recently. In 2021 it’s been going on a decade since we resembled a remotely competent franchise. I get your issues with blood lusting fans, but these fans haven’t experienced winning in a long time, especially compared with fans of 2002-2003. You can only ask fans to be patient so long… case in point, this place was full of hope at the end of last season when we merely went 6-10.
Payton got a lot better between the time he was with the Giants and taking over New Orleans.
The Giants offense has improved the last three times a head coach has replaced the offensive play caller — Fassel > Payton, Gilbride > Hufnagel, Mcadoo > Gilbride.
Yes and no. Let's just say Payton may have been missed in 2003. Does anyone remember who the OC was in 2003? I can't find it.
Payton got a lot better between the time he was with the Giants and taking over New Orleans.
The Giants offense has improved the last three times a head coach has replaced the offensive play caller — Fassel > Payton, Gilbride > Hufnagel, Mcadoo > Gilbride.
Payton, Hufnagel, and now Garrett were presiding over completely broken offenses and there was no alternative. The craziest thing is that Payton is now a HOF coach and the turnaround when he got canned was both immediate and striking. Which goes to show sometimes it's really just a bad fit and not the fault of the talents of the OC involved.
When Gillbride got replaced it was just his time. He wasn't incompetent and the offense wasn't as broken as the other 3. It was outdated, didn't take advantage of the evolving new rules, and lacking the personnel it needed. Coughlin and Eli got replaced a few years later for the same reasons.
Judge had to fire Garrett and he should have done it sooner because by all metrics his players were playing worse under him than they did under others. Most obviously Jones, Golladay, Barkley, Engram, Slayton. He was a walking failure for Judge's entire motto of wanting coaches who were teachers, helped players improve, and focused on what they did best ("don't tell me what they can't do" etc).
Judge needs to do some serious reflection on what took him so long and any impact he may have had in setting the above players back. The rest of this season needs to be about getting the most out of those guys to see who can be part of the solution or not. As learned with Gillbride post-Hufnagel and Fassel post-Payton, there may be some solutions already here.
be excited that Garrett was relieved from his duties?
Not saying that at all. Judge clearly not happy with him (or trying to save his own butt).
But blood lust runs deep on this site.
Not even CLOSE to an "I told ya so," because I and others didn't. However ... I and others here were NOT happy when Garrett was named this team's OC. He pretty much did as expected - just look at his under-achieving Dallas teams, and that was the only resume we needed to see.
No blood lust here. Just relieved he's out. It was painful to watch. Even when there would be momentary successes. Same as when he coached Dallas.
BBI was THRILLED when Kevin Gilbride was fired. THRILLED. I don't know if there were more than 10 people here who wanted him to stay.
Good times.
I liked Gilbride. If the QB and receiver are on the same page his system is almost impossible to stop. Really strong in the 2 minute. Eli should have saved Gilbride's job with an ultimatum.
was something Senior Offensive Assistant don't you think he had some input into the design of the offense? Why would him taking over make things better?
Are you saying change is bad? Change is inevitable. Sometimes change is necessary. Sometimes it works out. Sometimes it doesn’t. But change in anything, especially sports is inevitable.
Should we not want change when something isn’t working?
Not at all. I've already commented on this above.
I am simply pointing out that at the time, the hope was that Fassel had fixed things by diminishing and eventually letting Payton go. But lo and behold, it was only a short-term improvement. 2003 was a disaster and Fassel was fired. My point - if there is one - is simply a warning that this may not deal with the root problems.
2003 was a disaster offensively because they lost most of the offensive line from the previous season. For all of the focus on Tiki, Shockey, and Toomer, the o-line was quietly very good.
with the Giants. Formation change + motion man on every play it seemed. It was definitely hampering our offensive momentum and the starters ability to just go out and execute after the ball was snapped. He had cut back drastically when he resurfaced in Dallas. I don't even notice him doing it at all with New Orleans.
be excited that Garrett was relieved from his duties?
Not saying that at all. Judge clearly not happy with him (or trying to save his own butt).
But blood lust runs deep on this site.
It wasn't blood lust. I wish the guy the best but he was killing us
I see your point, I get what your saying but Garrett has a history in Dallas of being a timid play caller- its not his first rodeo as was Paytons. Garrett's timidity of late almost drove me to stop watching Giants games (not to mention Grahams inability to mount a blitz)
Payton may have gotten better over time with his own players and his own system
We can only hope the play calling gets more productive, more quick striking, and such. The key in my personal opinion is get Booker back in full time and use Barkley in spot duty.
If we establish the a steady productive running game, play action will work as will draws and screens- if we can get the passing game back working again.
The coaching and game plans in Tampa were embarrassing.
Everyone knew Brady folded under pressure but we brough 3 guys......they also knew Tampa had subs playing as DBs and we avoided any long passes.
We tried to run into Tampa's formidable run D with Barkley?????
In essence we did everything wrong and backwards.....they destroyed us
Garrett nailed his own coffin, and Graham is assembling the wood and nails to build his too. Graham is both timid and afraid to play newer more talented players at the LBer spots- he has his favorites and is sticking to them. That may be his doom.....right now he reminds me of Johnny Lynn. I hope this is a wake up call for Graham.....The prevent worked great against The Raiders but you cant just keep doing the same thing and expecting the same result- it does not work that way IMHO
Payton got a lot better between the time he was with the Giants and taking over New Orleans.
The Giants offense has improved the last three times a head coach has replaced the offensive play caller — Fassel > Payton, Gilbride > Hufnagel, Mcadoo > Gilbride.
Yes and no. Let's just say Payton may have been missed in 2003. Does anyone remember who the OC was in 2003? I can't find it.
the success or failure of an offensive coordinator turns on his QB. Can the QB carry the team even when the OC makes a mistake? Do the QB and the OC get along and learn from each other? Etc.
I remember Collins and Payton not getting along which, in hindsight, is more of an indictment of Collins than it is Payton. But the key is that the Payton-Collins duo didn't produce results and both BBI and Fassel were right to want a change.
Overall, yes, fans are more passionate than they are logical. I'm not sure this is a great example, though, because the proof was in the pudding. It wasn't until after Payton got set up with a new QB that he started having success.
Sean Payton was a smart young guy when he was here. He was in his mid-30s and pretty inexperienced. Maybe he was making some mistakes, maybe the pressure was getting to him.
The coach smartly saw that and took some of his responsibilities away. Evidently Payton learned from this (as any capable person does during his career) and became a great coach. This is an incredibly normal and unremarkable thing
Is there a point being made here? Like we're going to regret losing Jason Garrett? So weird...
Sean Payton was a smart young guy when he was here. He was in his mid-30s and pretty inexperienced. Maybe he was making some mistakes, maybe the pressure was getting to him.
The coach smartly saw that and took some of his responsibilities away. Evidently Payton learned from this (as any capable person does during his career) and became a great coach. This is an incredibly normal and unremarkable thing
Is there a point being made here? Like we're going to regret losing Jason Garrett? So weird...
I don't know what anyone else point would be but I think it's instructive in 2 ways:
1. changing OCs can lead to dramatically different performance
2. sometimes it's not even a reflection on the talents of the person who gets changed since Payton was/is obviously an offensive genius
Yes, both O-cos needed help. But aside from this, I don’t see much that would be instructive.
It’s been a long time and my memory of the matter is not great. But wasn’t there a fair amount of chatter in the media leading up Fassel taking the play calling? And didn't Fassel call plays early on when Payton was the O-co? My point is that there was a sense that maybe the play calling had become predictable but not that the offense fubar’d like the offense that Garrett’s been running this season. And Payton wasn’t fired or even frozen out by Fassel. He still game planned and worked on game day and he probably had a lot to do with the offense.
The situation with Garrett is far more troubling in my opinion. First of all, Judge simply doesn’t have the background and experience that Fassel had. A lot of that offense, most of it probably, was Fassels. And Fassel stepped in to play calling without hesitation and it worked right away. Do we even know that Judge can call plays? And I’m not asking that sarcastically. Does any aspect of this offense have any of Judges fingerprints? Again, not to be a dick, but does Judge have an offense or philosophy that is his own?
And even if Judge can call plays, the problems with the Giants offense seem to be far deeper than play calling. Ultimately I think this firing of Garrett is going to more problematic for Judge than anyone else. If Garrett were the problem, and if Judge could have fixed that problem, he would have done so before this season was lost. This move by Judge looks to me a lot like his calling a time out with 9 seconds left in the half at Tampa Bay. I think he’s in way over his head. Hope I’m wrong.
Simply pointing out that there was a belief that Sean Payton didn't know how to call a game.
Pretty ironic.
Sean Payton wasn't good at calling Fassels offense, it's like asking someone else to drive your car. Once he developed what he liked playbook wise he became unstoppable most of the time. He has also adapted to the modern NFL, Jason Garrett was trying but failing. I think we will see a bump pretty quickly with Kitchens. He was a lousy head coach but he knows offense.
Correct.
But it is more than a bit ironic that Sean Payton was considered to be inept as a play caller at the time.
In the long-run it cost us a chance at graduating up a tremendous coach in Payton, which is a far steeper price to pay than letting a archaic principled coordinator who has no future here, or Super Bowl winning future elsewhere go.
Apples and oranges for me.
Not saying that at all. Judge clearly not happy with him (or trying to save his own butt).
But blood lust runs deep on this site.
In the long-run it cost us a chance at graduating up a tremendous coach in Payton, which is a far steeper price to pay than letting a archaic principled coordinator who has no future here, or Super Bowl winning future elsewhere go.
Apples and oranges for me.
you are mixing up the years, 2000 was the chips being pushed into the middle after the Lions game. 2002 he relieved Payton of playcalling and we went on a nice offensive run, that culminated in an outstanding first half in SF, but then we blew it with our defense in the second half.
In the long-run it cost us a chance at graduating up a tremendous coach in Payton, which is a far steeper price to pay than letting a archaic principled coordinator who has no future here, or Super Bowl winning future elsewhere go.
Apples and oranges for me.
You're confusing two different seasons.
Probably the best thing that happened to SP. He got to work with Parcells who prepared him to be a HC.
Quote:
now that does not mean Payton was the problem, but something clicked with that offense. The game against Indy was a thing of beauty from an offensive standpoint down the stretch in 2002.
Correct.
But it is more than a bit ironic that Sean Payton was considered to be inept as a play caller at the time.
I don't know about inept, they did respond pretty well initially when Payton took over play calling. He was a young play caller, I think he became too predictable and DC's had figured him out a bit. I wasn't on BBI then, but I didn't like the move. I liked Payton, and thought Fassel should have helped Payton work through it.
Quote:
be excited that Garrett was relieved from his duties?
Not saying that at all. Judge clearly not happy with him (or trying to save his own butt).
But blood lust runs deep on this site.
In this case, I think Garrett over simplified things thinking the OL couldn't handle anything. We'll see what happens when Kitchens opens it up, because he is almost forced to do that. The guy before you got fired so do what he didn't do. It's the inverse of Payton and Fassel really.
in hindsight Payton's issue had to be his fit with Kerry more than anything else. His offense and all the motions was just too much for him to process (and likely just ahead of its' time).
When Fassel took over they were 3-4 and ended the season 7-2 despite a garbage defense. That flea flicker vs. Indy is definitely on Kerry's giants highlight reel.
Quote:
be excited that Garrett was relieved from his duties?
Not saying that at all. Judge clearly not happy with him (or trying to save his own butt).
But blood lust runs deep on this site.
Not even CLOSE to an "I told ya so," because I and others didn't. However ... I and others here were NOT happy when Garrett was named this team's OC. He pretty much did as expected - just look at his under-achieving Dallas teams, and that was the only resume we needed to see.
No blood lust here. Just relieved he's out. It was painful to watch. Even when there would be momentary successes. Same as when he coached Dallas.
Quote:
now that does not mean Payton was the problem, but something clicked with that offense. The game against Indy was a thing of beauty from an offensive standpoint down the stretch in 2002.
Correct.
But it is more than a bit ironic that Sean Payton was considered to be inept as a play caller at the time.
I don't think it was about him being inept necessarily as he was an excellent play caller at times with great feel. I recall it was more about all the presnap motions and general over-complication especially presnap that didn't allow the players to play freely. Fassel "simplified" things and the offense took off.
Problem was Fassel was feeling a hot seat and by taking the reigns from Payton making him fall guy -- which he sort of was in reality at that time -- was a bridge that burned a relationship with Payton that would have benefited us long-term. That's what hurts to me.
I see no similarity to Garrett though except for blood is blood.
Quote:
In comment 15464683 JohninSC said:
Quote:
be excited that Garrett was relieved from his duties?
Not saying that at all. Judge clearly not happy with him (or trying to save his own butt).
But blood lust runs deep on this site.
Not even CLOSE to an "I told ya so," because I and others didn't. However ... I and others here were NOT happy when Garrett was named this team's OC. He pretty much did as expected - just look at his under-achieving Dallas teams, and that was the only resume we needed to see.
No blood lust here. Just relieved he's out. It was painful to watch. Even when there would be momentary successes. Same as when he coached Dallas.
BBI was THRILLED when Kevin Gilbride was fired. THRILLED. I don't know if there were more than 10 people here who wanted him to stay.
Good times.
Quote:
In comment 15464683 JohninSC said:
Quote:
be excited that Garrett was relieved from his duties?
Not saying that at all. Judge clearly not happy with him (or trying to save his own butt).
But blood lust runs deep on this site.
You seem to be taking the reigns from FatMan as the resident curmudgeon who is more upset about fan reactions, than the team being a perennial bottom feeder!
Blood lust runs deep in every fan base when the team is losing year in and year out. This is not something unique to BBI.
And I expect we will see a bump in the offense resulting primarily from guys being spooked/energized by a coach being fired and a new voice leading the room. That is typical in most sports, but is usually temporary.
Quote:
which we were happy at...
In the long-run it cost us a chance at graduating up a tremendous coach in Payton, which is a far steeper price to pay than letting a archaic principled coordinator who has no future here, or Super Bowl winning future elsewhere go.
Apples and oranges for me.
You're confusing two different seasons.
You're right, my bad. Mixing 2000 and 2002...
Same result though. We went on a run in 2002 to get into the playoffs off of that change.
In this case, I think Garrett over simplified things thinking the OL couldn't handle anything. We'll see what happens when Kitchens opens it up, because he is almost forced to do that. The guy before you got fired so do what he didn't do. It's the inverse of Payton and Fassel really.
Good post. That's my recollection too.
Advantage Con Man
Simply pointing out that there was a belief that Sean Payton didn't know how to call a game.
Pretty ironic.
BBI was THRILLED when Kevin Gilbride was fired. THRILLED. I don't know if there were more than 10 people here who wanted him to stay.
Good times.
I'm not sure I agree with that. I was as big a KG defender as anyone here, and I recall his detractors being a very vocal minority. But my memory could be foggy!
In this case, I think Garrett over simplified things thinking the OL couldn't handle anything. We'll see what happens when Kitchens opens it up, because he is almost forced to do that. The guy before you got fired so do what he didn't do. It's the inverse of Payton and Fassel really.
this is exactly how i remember things re: 2002.
I actually disagree that Garrett simplified things - I think he more tried to over control/over scheme things. He didn't trust his personnel to just go out, run plays, and take what the defense gave them. Instead he was constantly trying to scheme things open.
Occasionally it worked (Rudolph wheel route and Thomas TD) but that's not a sustainable way to run an offense and the team just had no identity - except poorly run, predictable, conservative concepts with the occasional trick play mixed in.
Kitchens needs to come in and just figure out the 10-20 best plays that fit with Jones (even if he has to go back to '19) and focus on those. Let Engram/Slayton/Ross work downfield and between them pick a good matchup and take 1 shot play per Q to keep safeties honest. Let Golladay/Toney/Shep work over the middle on slants/crossers and the occasional shot play. Let barkley/booker each serve as a dump off options. Play with tempo/no huddle to protect the OL and just take the 1 on 1's the defense gives them. Golladay and Toney can beat one on ones. Shepard too on the 20 plays he'll get in before his next injury.
Quote:
BBI was THRILLED when Kevin Gilbride was fired. THRILLED. I don't know if there were more than 10 people here who wanted him to stay.
Good times.
I'm not sure I agree with that. I was as big a KG defender as anyone here, and I recall his detractors being a very vocal minority. But my memory could be foggy!
Section, BBI was thrilled when Gilbride was fired. Everyone here was saying "good riddance"... game had passed him by... thank God the Giants had move on, etc.
Parcells wasn't an offensive mastermind. He's a defensive coach. Payton learned how to be a head coach from Parcells, but he didn't teach him to be a great play caller.
Should we not want change when something isn’t working?
Should we not want change when something isn’t working?
Not at all. I've already commented on this above.
I am simply pointing out that at the time, the hope was that Fassel had fixed things by diminishing and eventually letting Payton go. But lo and behold, it was only a short-term improvement. 2003 was a disaster and Fassel was fired. My point - if there is one - is simply a warning that this may not deal with the root problems.
The Giants offense has improved the last three times a head coach has replaced the offensive play caller — Fassel > Payton, Gilbride > Hufnagel, Mcadoo > Gilbride.
In 2003, Giants fans had at least experienced winning seasons recently. In 2021 it’s been going on a decade since we resembled a remotely competent franchise. I get your issues with blood lusting fans, but these fans haven’t experienced winning in a long time, especially compared with fans of 2002-2003. You can only ask fans to be patient so long… case in point, this place was full of hope at the end of last season when we merely went 6-10.
The Giants offense has improved the last three times a head coach has replaced the offensive play caller — Fassel > Payton, Gilbride > Hufnagel, Mcadoo > Gilbride.
Yes and no. Let's just say Payton may have been missed in 2003. Does anyone remember who the OC was in 2003? I can't find it.
The Giants offense has improved the last three times a head coach has replaced the offensive play caller — Fassel > Payton, Gilbride > Hufnagel, Mcadoo > Gilbride.
Payton, Hufnagel, and now Garrett were presiding over completely broken offenses and there was no alternative. The craziest thing is that Payton is now a HOF coach and the turnaround when he got canned was both immediate and striking. Which goes to show sometimes it's really just a bad fit and not the fault of the talents of the OC involved.
When Gillbride got replaced it was just his time. He wasn't incompetent and the offense wasn't as broken as the other 3. It was outdated, didn't take advantage of the evolving new rules, and lacking the personnel it needed. Coughlin and Eli got replaced a few years later for the same reasons.
Judge had to fire Garrett and he should have done it sooner because by all metrics his players were playing worse under him than they did under others. Most obviously Jones, Golladay, Barkley, Engram, Slayton. He was a walking failure for Judge's entire motto of wanting coaches who were teachers, helped players improve, and focused on what they did best ("don't tell me what they can't do" etc).
Judge needs to do some serious reflection on what took him so long and any impact he may have had in setting the above players back. The rest of this season needs to be about getting the most out of those guys to see who can be part of the solution or not. As learned with Gillbride post-Hufnagel and Fassel post-Payton, there may be some solutions already here.
it was also the Cowboys opinion in 2013 (which led to a positive effect).
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In comment 15464697 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 15464683 JohninSC said:
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be excited that Garrett was relieved from his duties?
Not saying that at all. Judge clearly not happy with him (or trying to save his own butt).
But blood lust runs deep on this site.
Not even CLOSE to an "I told ya so," because I and others didn't. However ... I and others here were NOT happy when Garrett was named this team's OC. He pretty much did as expected - just look at his under-achieving Dallas teams, and that was the only resume we needed to see.
No blood lust here. Just relieved he's out. It was painful to watch. Even when there would be momentary successes. Same as when he coached Dallas.
BBI was THRILLED when Kevin Gilbride was fired. THRILLED. I don't know if there were more than 10 people here who wanted him to stay.
Good times.
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Are you saying change is bad? Change is inevitable. Sometimes change is necessary. Sometimes it works out. Sometimes it doesn’t. But change in anything, especially sports is inevitable.
Should we not want change when something isn’t working?
Not at all. I've already commented on this above.
I am simply pointing out that at the time, the hope was that Fassel had fixed things by diminishing and eventually letting Payton go. But lo and behold, it was only a short-term improvement. 2003 was a disaster and Fassel was fired. My point - if there is one - is simply a warning that this may not deal with the root problems.
2003 was a disaster offensively because they lost most of the offensive line from the previous season. For all of the focus on Tiki, Shockey, and Toomer, the o-line was quietly very good.
We see what Peyton went on to do with a smart QB
I guess it was. Nobody got it.
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be excited that Garrett was relieved from his duties?
Not saying that at all. Judge clearly not happy with him (or trying to save his own butt).
But blood lust runs deep on this site.
It wasn't blood lust. I wish the guy the best but he was killing us
I see your point, I get what your saying but Garrett has a history in Dallas of being a timid play caller- its not his first rodeo as was Paytons. Garrett's timidity of late almost drove me to stop watching Giants games (not to mention Grahams inability to mount a blitz)
Payton may have gotten better over time with his own players and his own system
We can only hope the play calling gets more productive, more quick striking, and such. The key in my personal opinion is get Booker back in full time and use Barkley in spot duty.
If we establish the a steady productive running game, play action will work as will draws and screens- if we can get the passing game back working again.
The coaching and game plans in Tampa were embarrassing.
Everyone knew Brady folded under pressure but we brough 3 guys......they also knew Tampa had subs playing as DBs and we avoided any long passes.
We tried to run into Tampa's formidable run D with Barkley?????
In essence we did everything wrong and backwards.....they destroyed us
Garrett nailed his own coffin, and Graham is assembling the wood and nails to build his too. Graham is both timid and afraid to play newer more talented players at the LBer spots- he has his favorites and is sticking to them. That may be his doom.....right now he reminds me of Johnny Lynn. I hope this is a wake up call for Graham.....The prevent worked great against The Raiders but you cant just keep doing the same thing and expecting the same result- it does not work that way IMHO
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Payton got a lot better between the time he was with the Giants and taking over New Orleans.
The Giants offense has improved the last three times a head coach has replaced the offensive play caller — Fassel > Payton, Gilbride > Hufnagel, Mcadoo > Gilbride.
Yes and no. Let's just say Payton may have been missed in 2003. Does anyone remember who the OC was in 2003? I can't find it.
Hufnagel?
I remember Collins and Payton not getting along which, in hindsight, is more of an indictment of Collins than it is Payton. But the key is that the Payton-Collins duo didn't produce results and both BBI and Fassel were right to want a change.
Overall, yes, fans are more passionate than they are logical. I'm not sure this is a great example, though, because the proof was in the pudding. It wasn't until after Payton got set up with a new QB that he started having success.
The coach smartly saw that and took some of his responsibilities away. Evidently Payton learned from this (as any capable person does during his career) and became a great coach. This is an incredibly normal and unremarkable thing
Is there a point being made here? Like we're going to regret losing Jason Garrett? So weird...
The coach smartly saw that and took some of his responsibilities away. Evidently Payton learned from this (as any capable person does during his career) and became a great coach. This is an incredibly normal and unremarkable thing
Is there a point being made here? Like we're going to regret losing Jason Garrett? So weird...
I don't know what anyone else point would be but I think it's instructive in 2 ways:
1. changing OCs can lead to dramatically different performance
2. sometimes it's not even a reflection on the talents of the person who gets changed since Payton was/is obviously an offensive genius
It’s been a long time and my memory of the matter is not great. But wasn’t there a fair amount of chatter in the media leading up Fassel taking the play calling? And didn't Fassel call plays early on when Payton was the O-co? My point is that there was a sense that maybe the play calling had become predictable but not that the offense fubar’d like the offense that Garrett’s been running this season. And Payton wasn’t fired or even frozen out by Fassel. He still game planned and worked on game day and he probably had a lot to do with the offense.
The situation with Garrett is far more troubling in my opinion. First of all, Judge simply doesn’t have the background and experience that Fassel had. A lot of that offense, most of it probably, was Fassels. And Fassel stepped in to play calling without hesitation and it worked right away. Do we even know that Judge can call plays? And I’m not asking that sarcastically. Does any aspect of this offense have any of Judges fingerprints? Again, not to be a dick, but does Judge have an offense or philosophy that is his own?
And even if Judge can call plays, the problems with the Giants offense seem to be far deeper than play calling. Ultimately I think this firing of Garrett is going to more problematic for Judge than anyone else. If Garrett were the problem, and if Judge could have fixed that problem, he would have done so before this season was lost. This move by Judge looks to me a lot like his calling a time out with 9 seconds left in the half at Tampa Bay. I think he’s in way over his head. Hope I’m wrong.
Simply pointing out that there was a belief that Sean Payton didn't know how to call a game.
Pretty ironic.