What would you do at QB for the 2022 season?
A) Keep Jones, build the O-Line and D-Line through the draft.
B) Trade Jones for a late round pick, draft a QB high in the draft. Sign a veteran backup that could start if Rookie faulters. Still build O-Line and D-Line through the draft picks available. (Keep in mind that you might have to trade up to get the QB you really want)
C) Trade Jones for a late round pick, sign a stop gap QB that could start (Teddy Bridgewater, Cam Newton, or Tyrod Taylor type). Build the O-Line and D-Line through the draft.
I want Jones traded next spring but it’s part of that “build to 2023” principle and not a tactical choice.
This is not true. It's ok to miss, and it does not set you back 2-3 years.
What sets you back 2-3 years is failing to admit that you made a mistake. The Giants made a mistake drafting Jones - they could easily have rectified that a year later by drafting Herbert. It just requires a change of mindset and a removal of sentimentality from decision making. People act like it's impossible or impractical but it isn't.
Don't be afraid to pick a quarterback again. Don't be afraid to acknowledge you missed if you did.
I also understand you need a QB but I would rather fix the guts of the team first. If the draft presents a franchise QB I take one. I believe with a serviceable veteran with a team described above and good coaching I can compete for and make the playoffs. At some point I am willing to move heavy assets to get the final piece if necessary.
I still believe the most physically athletic teams wins championships. I also think your chances are better with a rookie contract are better but you have to have the infrastructure in place. Otherwise we end up with Jones situation repeated.
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1. He's going to walk at the end of 22 for nothing
2. Every snap he gets in 22 is a waste. Those are snaps that could be going to a young prospect (even a UDFA) that has not been deemed a lost cause like Jones has.
And this is not mentioning the stupidity and sentimentality of ownership, which is always a danger.
Jones has to go.
This seems to me to be an emotional response. The idea next year is to build a competitive team. Putting a UDFA QB in and losing games and pissing off guys playing for contracts and careers is silly. You are fucking with these guys to make a point about Jones.
Jones is not some kind of cancer that needs to be gone. Even if you draft a QB in the first, if the line is a shambles you don't roll him out there and break his confidence. Let Jones (or another vet) take that and try to win until you are comfortable the potential answer at QB is ready to play.
I don't think 2022 is about competing. I think it's about culling as many mistakes as you can to try to get to a clean slate in 2023.
Further, a young prospect isn't likely to be much worse than Jones (backup level). But he might be better. It's a low enough bar that there shouldn't be much difference anyway.
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That you can’t miss on a QB prospect this year of you go that route. Picking the wrong QB sets you back another 2-3 years. This is why I’m against the taking a 2nd route QB route.
This is not true. It's ok to miss, and it does not set you back 2-3 years.
What sets you back 2-3 years is failing to admit that you made a mistake. The Giants made a mistake drafting Jones - they could easily have rectified that a year later by drafting Herbert. It just requires a change of mindset and a removal of sentimentality from decision making. People act like it's impossible or impractical but it isn't.
Don't be afraid to pick a quarterback again. Don't be afraid to acknowledge you missed if you did.
That also means the Giants are awful again next year and they have a high draft pick. I don’t know about you, but I don’t want to suck again.
The QB, and everyone else for that matter, would understand that it's a stop gap and would relieve a lot of pressure all around. With Jones playing, even with his option declined, is still going to have that air of expectation of living up to his draft pick.
You have next year to decide on Jones or move on. (I am among those who would like to see what he could do with better OL play in front of him.) If you decide to move on from Jones after the 2022 season, you have the 2023 draft which should be better for QBs than this year.
As others have said, there is a lot of bad QB play in the league. Getting someone who will be a clear upgrade working behind this OL is a tall order.
Options (either through the draft, FA, or both) won't be a problem. There will be plenty.
Do you want to improve the team and create a team that can be competitive?
I do not see how B/C work towards improving the team
Unless there is a superior prospect available in the draft you hold the line and hope that Jones can show improvement
B without a great prospect will recreate what happened with Jones
C is a stop gap and does not improve the team
If it isn’t Jones then hope there is a qb that will be available in 2023 and that the team will be in a position to acquire that player
To that end the Giants should consider trading back with one of their first round picks to acquire another first in 2023
Options (either through the draft, FA, or both) won't be a problem. There will be plenty.
Through the draft I do not see a Week 1 2022 starter if you want them to reach their full upside (sans Pickett who I have stated my concerns here and elsewhere about).
2. Every snap he gets in 22 is a waste. Those are snaps that could be going to a young prospect (even a UDFA) that has not been deemed a lost cause like Jones has.
And this is not mentioning the stupidity and sentimentality of ownership, which is always a danger.
Jones has to go.
Not all that compelling. Potential trade but doesn't need to be forced just to mitigate any dangers...
This isn't compelling either. The Giants are in a shape that is not good so nothing can really set them back much further, or keep them from achieving some quick turnaround which is more fantasy anyway...
We have a lot of draft assets going into this draft, they have to be used wisely.
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In comment 15465025 Go Terps said:
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1. He's going to walk at the end of 22 for nothing
2. Every snap he gets in 22 is a waste. Those are snaps that could be going to a young prospect (even a UDFA) that has not been deemed a lost cause like Jones has.
And this is not mentioning the stupidity and sentimentality of ownership, which is always a danger.
Jones has to go.
This seems to me to be an emotional response. The idea next year is to build a competitive team. Putting a UDFA QB in and losing games and pissing off guys playing for contracts and careers is silly. You are fucking with these guys to make a point about Jones.
Jones is not some kind of cancer that needs to be gone. Even if you draft a QB in the first, if the line is a shambles you don't roll him out there and break his confidence. Let Jones (or another vet) take that and try to win until you are comfortable the potential answer at QB is ready to play.
I don't think 2022 is about competing. I think it's about culling as many mistakes as you can to try to get to a clean slate in 2023.
Further, a young prospect isn't likely to be much worse than Jones (backup level). But he might be better. It's a low enough bar that there shouldn't be much difference anyway.
You just can't put anybody back there. A QB without accuracy can get his WR's injured with a career threatening injury (having to adjust to a bad pass, gets hit by defender, tears up knee). Not to mention it stymies the development of someone like Toney if he can't even have an NFL caliber QB (not saying a starter, but not Nathan Peterman) throwing him the ball.
Just look at any recent draft. Look at where Mahomes went in the draft. Look at 2018 - 2 MVP-level guys scattered around 2 massive busts and whatever Mayfield is. Look at 2020 with Tua going ahead of Herbert.
All the best professionals in the world are evaluating these guys. And they suck at it. Maybe it's just something that is very difficult to do.
The only way to know if a guy is going to be good in the NFL is for him to play in the NFL. It's not a certainty. It never will be. You're just drawing a card and hoping it's good.
So...if the QB has 1) the requisite physical tools, 2) a track record of college success, and 3) a good personality...I draft him. Then I try him out for 2-3 years. If he's good, I keep him. If he's not, I fold the hand and get new cards.
Jones hasn't had a fair shake at things. the worst thing that could happen is Jones sucks, we have another high pick that will be used on QB only this time our OL is fixed and we have some young pass rush talent.
imagine you rewind to 2019 and jones comes in with an OL, DL, and a few weapons?
Jones is not a pariah the team needs to be rid of. He is not causing harm being here. He just isn’t good enough to build around. If you let him go for a 6th or 7th round pick you have a hole that needs to be filled by someone who can give your team a chance to compete. Anything else and you might as well tell the team practices are optional since the year doesn’t count. It’s a losing culture.
Every position should be earned. If someone comes in and beats out Jones then you trade or release him. You don’t let him go while he is still cheap and hope some random late round pick comes in and plays as well. Jones is not the worst QB in the league and he is not giving you the play you are likely getting from a UDFA. That is hyperbole.
What this team needs is more fact based analysis devoid of emotion, not replacing sentimentality with vengeance.
Extending Jones is a catastrophe for the franchise. Maybe it's low probability but I could seen Mara doing it if Jones has a few good games at the end of next season. Removing that option from Mara is more important than a marginal downgrade at QB next year
I made the same case when we drafted Lauletta - he should have been starting games once the 2018 season got out of hand. There was nothing to be gained by playing Eli (who I absolutely love).
Emotion had nothing to do with it. Resource allocation does - there is nothing to be gained from continuing with Jones once the decision has been made not to pick up his option or give him another contract.
Get something for him in trade (quantity of draft picks is important to this mess of a roster) and start over at the position. That's better than just letting him walk after 2022.
Jones is not a pariah the team needs to be rid of. He is not causing harm being here. He just isn’t good enough to build around. If you let him go for a 6th or 7th round pick you have a hole that needs to be filled by someone who can give your team a chance to compete. Anything else and you might as well tell the team practices are optional since the year doesn’t count. It’s a losing culture.
Every position should be earned. If someone comes in and beats out Jones then you trade or release him. You don’t let him go while he is still cheap and hope some random late round pick comes in and plays as well. Jones is not the worst QB in the league and he is not giving you the play you are likely getting from a UDFA. That is hyperbole.
What this team needs is more fact based analysis devoid of emotion, not replacing sentimentality with vengeance.
And declining his option and running him out there is going to inspire confidence? Perhaps dont replace him a UDFA, but I see no reason to keep Jones for year 4 if they're declining his option.
That draft had nothing to do with this one, and no one is suggesting forcing a pick the way they forced Jones.
Mahomes and Watson went 10 and 12 in a bad QB draft. Aaron Rodgers went 24 in a bad QB draft.
There's no way to know these things ahead of time.
Sorry GM
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I take one look around and write on a napkin I resign as HC of the NYG
Sorry GM
What are you nuts?
Storied franchise. Stuck in the mud for a decade so nowhere to go but up. Owners that let you spend right up to the cap each year. Almost impossible to look as bad as the last guy.
Plenty of draft picks for 2022 including two first rounders.
This is a great opportunity for a smart guy with some talent evaluating skills...
Extending Jones is a catastrophe for the franchise. Maybe it's low probability but I could seen Mara doing it if Jones has a few good games at the end of next season. Removing that option from Mara is more important than a marginal downgrade at QB next year
Exactly.
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In comment 15465348 Blue Dream said:
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I take one look around and write on a napkin I resign as HC of the NYG
Sorry GM
What are you nuts?
Storied franchise. Stuck in the mud for a decade so nowhere to go but up. Owners that let you spend right up to the cap each year. Almost impossible to look as bad as the last guy.
Plenty of draft picks for 2022 including two first rounders.
This is a great opportunity for a smart guy with some talent evaluating skills...
I was joking. Real answer go ol/pass rusher with 2 first round picks. Find mid level qb prospect on day 2 to challenge jones if needed.
- if a QB is there, I'd take him. If not, don't force the pick.
- get the best edge, OL and defenders we can in the draft.
the reasons I'd get a stop gap vet are:
- other players are playing for their careers and contracts. give them the best chance to succeed. it doesn't seem like it's Jones.
- it will be easier to build and develop the team with a QB that can play QB. we've got to stop the clown show.
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That you can’t miss on a QB prospect this year of you go that route. Picking the wrong QB sets you back another 2-3 years. This is why I’m against the taking a 2nd route QB route.
This is not true. It's ok to miss, and it does not set you back 2-3 years.
What sets you back 2-3 years is failing to admit that you made a mistake. The Giants made a mistake drafting Jones - they could easily have rectified that a year later by drafting Herbert. It just requires a change of mindset and a removal of sentimentality from decision making. People act like it's impossible or impractical but it isn't.
Don't be afraid to pick a quarterback again. Don't be afraid to acknowledge you missed if you did.
I’m with you. Always have been. But after 24 tds his rookie year in 12 games, there was zero chance of them drafting Herbert.
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In comment 15465352 Blue Dream said:
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In comment 15465348 Blue Dream said:
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I take one look around and write on a napkin I resign as HC of the NYG
Sorry GM
What are you nuts?
Storied franchise. Stuck in the mud for a decade so nowhere to go but up. Owners that let you spend right up to the cap each year. Almost impossible to look as bad as the last guy.
Plenty of draft picks for 2022 including two first rounders.
This is a great opportunity for a smart guy with some talent evaluating skills...
I was joking. Real answer go ol/pass rusher with 2 first round picks. Find mid level qb prospect on day 2 to challenge jones if needed.
While I don't dispute the heavy investment needed in OL and pass rushers, they could pursue a myriad of strategies as no shortage of talent required almost everywhere.
QB evaluations will drive everything. If guys don't make the grade I see no reason to push it...even with a Day 2 prospect.
Would be happy shoring up a number of positional units. Or possibly even trading down again in Rd 1 with one of those two picks and aligning picks to a deferral of the QB decision in 2023.
With cap probably fairly tight, would probably just pursue a mid-priced Guard and maybe only a RB or TE in Free Agency. But I would do a lot of wheeling & dealing with all those 2022 Draft picks and infuse a crap load of young talent all over this roster. Don't fall in love with any prospect, but be ready to move and down in each round to grab versatile football players that can handle a pass-happy league on both sides of the ball.
We'd get a lot more than a day three pick for Jones IMO. The Jets got second, fourth, and sixth round picks for Darnold. Many teams might think that Jones is playing badly because his OL sucks.
I do agree that the team is not likely to be competitive in 2022. We simply have too many bad contracts that we won't really begin to be able to shed until 2023.
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In comment 15465034 JoeyBigBlue said:
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That you can’t miss on a QB prospect this year of you go that route. Picking the wrong QB sets you back another 2-3 years. This is why I’m against the taking a 2nd route QB route.
This is not true. It's ok to miss, and it does not set you back 2-3 years.
What sets you back 2-3 years is failing to admit that you made a mistake. The Giants made a mistake drafting Jones - they could easily have rectified that a year later by drafting Herbert. It just requires a change of mindset and a removal of sentimentality from decision making. People act like it's impossible or impractical but it isn't.
Don't be afraid to pick a quarterback again. Don't be afraid to acknowledge you missed if you did.
I’m with you. Always have been. But after 24 tds his rookie year in 12 games, there was zero chance of them drafting Herbert.
Of course - because they weren't objective. An objective analysis would have concluded that Herbert + whatever they got in trade for Jones (call it a second rounder at the time, but it probably would have been a first) is better than keeping Jones. There is zero, ZERO chance that they had a higher grade on Jones than they did on Herbert.
A deeper look at Jones's rookie year and you could see the red flags. Shit, I saw them and I know fuck-all. They had to know it on the building too. Had to.
What sets you back 2-3 years is failing to admit that you made a mistake.
This organization will NOT admit they made a mistake and they take forever to part with people.
So, although moving on from him may have been the right thing to do, that is not how the people here are wired. They find REASONS TO BELIEVE AND FORGIVE. It is a huge organizational flaw.
Remember, they also held onto Eli longer than they should have for sentimental reasons.
I saw a video (I am pissed that I cannot find it) that was fairly telling. It was a video about Belichick or about Brady. However, it was a clip of the Pats warming up on the field at Metlife. Possibly a pre-season game.
Anyway, Belichik is mic'd up for this and he is telling Brady about how this organization never fires anyone (other than a coach). They have the same people working in the same jobs for decades. Both Bill and Tom laughed at that in a way that made the Giants organization seem like a bunch of dinosoars.
So, I share that story to help provide even more clarity to why I believe the Giants not only would never have given up on a 1st round QB selection so soon and why they still may let him start another year for us.
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In comment 15465051 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15465034 JoeyBigBlue said:
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That you can’t miss on a QB prospect this year of you go that route. Picking the wrong QB sets you back another 2-3 years. This is why I’m against the taking a 2nd route QB route.
This is not true. It's ok to miss, and it does not set you back 2-3 years.
What sets you back 2-3 years is failing to admit that you made a mistake. The Giants made a mistake drafting Jones - they could easily have rectified that a year later by drafting Herbert. It just requires a change of mindset and a removal of sentimentality from decision making. People act like it's impossible or impractical but it isn't.
Don't be afraid to pick a quarterback again. Don't be afraid to acknowledge you missed if you did.
I’m with you. Always have been. But after 24 tds his rookie year in 12 games, there was zero chance of them drafting Herbert.
Of course - because they weren't objective. An objective analysis would have concluded that Herbert + whatever they got in trade for Jones (call it a second rounder at the time, but it probably would have been a first) is better than keeping Jones. There is zero, ZERO chance that they had a higher grade on Jones than they did on Herbert.
A deeper look at Jones's rookie year and you could see the red flags. Shit, I saw them and I know fuck-all. They had to know it on the building too. Had to.
100% spot on. There was zero downside to drafting Herbert and dealing Jones. Zero
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In comment 15465377 The_Boss said:
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In comment 15465051 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15465034 JoeyBigBlue said:
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That you can’t miss on a QB prospect this year of you go that route. Picking the wrong QB sets you back another 2-3 years. This is why I’m against the taking a 2nd route QB route.
This is not true. It's ok to miss, and it does not set you back 2-3 years.
What sets you back 2-3 years is failing to admit that you made a mistake. The Giants made a mistake drafting Jones - they could easily have rectified that a year later by drafting Herbert. It just requires a change of mindset and a removal of sentimentality from decision making. People act like it's impossible or impractical but it isn't.
Don't be afraid to pick a quarterback again. Don't be afraid to acknowledge you missed if you did.
I’m with you. Always have been. But after 24 tds his rookie year in 12 games, there was zero chance of them drafting Herbert.
Of course - because they weren't objective. An objective analysis would have concluded that Herbert + whatever they got in trade for Jones (call it a second rounder at the time, but it probably would have been a first) is better than keeping Jones. There is zero, ZERO chance that they had a higher grade on Jones than they did on Herbert.
A deeper look at Jones's rookie year and you could see the red flags. Shit, I saw them and I know fuck-all. They had to know it on the building too. Had to.
100% spot on. There was zero downside to drafting Herbert and dealing Jones. Zero
The next gm must have a forward view. He would either decide to go all in on Jones now or cut ties. You can’t have a lame duck qb plan. Personally, I would try an option D, trade Jones and go get Russell Wilson or even Aaron Rodgers. I don’t think age is much of a factor in this day and age and a top qb can make the team (oline, receivers) considerably better.