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The firing was the right decision today to evaluate Jones...

EricJ : 11/23/2021 6:34 pm
I think hidden behind the reasons why Garrett was fired is also the need to figure out whether Garrett was responsible for Jones' performances.

We have heard all of the excuses for Jones and some are valid. For me, play calling was a huge problem. Especially on 3rd down when he rarely had viable options to move the chains.

Still, Jones has not performed at an acceptable level.

Last night the team had all of the weapons available and the offense looked horrible. We saw poor play calling and also did not have our key eligible receivers on the field when you would think they would (ie Golladay near the goal line)

So, we are removing one big problem from the equation in Garrett. If Jones still struggles despite having someone else call the plays AND with a fairly healthy group of weapons... then leadership can feel more comfortable looking for another QB option this off season.
Jones  
Hilary : 11/23/2021 6:44 pm : link
I think Jones is very under rated on this board

but the bonehead throws like the one he made last night are not on the coach. Pee Wee league coaches tell there QB to throw the ball out of bounds.

he can't be evaluated behind Skura Price and Hernandez
Firing JG  
Joe Beckwith : 11/23/2021 6:46 pm : link
will help them evaluate DJ and whatever and whoever draws up the O plan.
Obviously they’ll think their plan is perfect to evaluate him, but it’s also a front office means to evaluate the coaching staff designing it.
RE: Jones  
EricJ : 11/23/2021 6:49 pm : link
In comment 15465382 Hilary said:
Quote:


he can't be evaluated behind Skura Price and Hernandez


he will have to be evaluated. Someone else calling the plays plus having the starting weapons back. He is not going to have the perfect situation so he will need to prove it with the remaining games...three of them division games
Good, objective post ...I agree with you.  
Spider56 : 11/23/2021 6:54 pm : link
I’ve said repeatedly that despite Jones supposedly having a good relationship with JG, he’s not looked comfortable coming out of the huddle since Shurmur and Shula left. Something just wasn’t right. It may take a game or 2 to adjust, but I still think he has it in him to be successful, regardless of what the Duke haters on this board think.
There is nothing left to evaluate for any astute observers  
Producer : 11/23/2021 6:59 pm : link
It is clear what Jones is. There isn't some mystery remaining to be discerned.

The range of possibilities and the probabilities of those outcomes are pretty clear.



RE: There is nothing left to evaluate for any astute observers  
EricJ : 11/23/2021 7:01 pm : link
In comment 15465400 Producer said:
Quote:
It is clear what Jones is. There isn't some mystery remaining to be discerned.

The range of possibilities and the probabilities of those outcomes are pretty clear.




It may be clear to the fans... but the people responsible for drafting him need more convincing and need to check all of the boxes. I hope you can understand that.
RE: There is nothing left to evaluate for any astute observers  
Ben in Tampa : 11/23/2021 7:07 pm : link
In comment 15465400 Producer said:
Quote:
It is clear what Jones is. There isn't some mystery remaining to be discerned.

The range of possibilities and the probabilities of those outcomes are pretty clear.




I don’t necessarily disagree with you, but you’re such a caricature of a Jones hater at this point, this post comes like clockwork.
RE: RE: There is nothing left to evaluate for any astute observers  
Producer : 11/23/2021 7:14 pm : link
In comment 15465401 EricJ said:
Quote:
In comment 15465400 Producer said:


Quote:


It is clear what Jones is. There isn't some mystery remaining to be discerned.

The range of possibilities and the probabilities of those outcomes are pretty clear.






It may be clear to the fans... but the people responsible for drafting him need more convincing and need to check all of the boxes. I hope you can understand that.


No, I don't think you are right. I think you have it twisted. It is clearer to the experts than it is to the fans because they know what they are looking at, and most fans don't.

Jones hasn't developed beyond many bad habits. In isolation he makes many of the same mistakes he made when he came out of college.

He is now in his third year. With each passing year and each passing game, the probability he will turn it around decreases. His fundamental play is highly unlikely to change.

The question isn't what is Daniel Jones. We know it. He is terrible. The question is, how likely is he to improve from here, and what are the probabilities for those improvements.

My guess, is that he is most likely to fall into the Bortles/Trubisky category. It doesn't much matter to differentiate between these lesser categories as they are all bad. And if I'm going to guess, the probability of this outcome is over 90%.

Then there is the outcome that he becomes Andy Dalton. and the outcome that he is a bit better and becomes Kirk Cousins. I think there is a very low chance he can become as effective as Kirk Cousins. And almost zero chance he can be a category better than that.

You don't bet the fortunes of a billion dollar entertainment enterprise on probabilities like that.

Daniel Jones is now a five alarm fire for this organization. It's fans like you, who don't see it, who don't want to accept the reality of the probability that Jones will be anything other than an awful starting QB in this league.

IMO the actual evaluation will come next season  
montanagiant : 11/23/2021 7:16 pm : link
By a new GM. This team has got to draft three O-linemen, a true legit pass rusher, and a cover LB before anything else this off-season. It is time to fix the foundation of a decent NFL team
RE: RE: There is nothing left to evaluate for any astute observers  
Producer : 11/23/2021 7:19 pm : link
In comment 15465412 Ben in Tampa said:
Quote:
In comment 15465400 Producer said:


Quote:


It is clear what Jones is. There isn't some mystery remaining to be discerned.

The range of possibilities and the probabilities of those outcomes are pretty clear.






I don’t necessarily disagree with you, but you’re such a caricature of a Jones hater at this point, this post comes like clockwork.


You agree with me but you don't like me. That is a quintessential fallacy - it is ad hominem. If you agree with what I have been saying all you need to do is say - yes. And if I am off the mark somewhere, tell me and I will gladly listen. I didn't make Daniel Jones a bad QB. I didn't make him the QB of the Giants. I simply looked at his numbers and elements of his performance and said he will not be good enough for us, so we should reconsider what we are doing with him. It was always a perfectly reasonable point.

What was unreasonable were the people saying he had *the goods* or he would get better, in the face of evidence that he was substandard.
Who cares if fans want to see what he does  
UConn4523 : 11/23/2021 7:24 pm : link
the rest of the season? He’s playing whether you bitch moan and complain, or not so we will see if he continues to underwhelm or shows signs of improvement.
RE: IMO the actual evaluation will come next season  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/23/2021 7:24 pm : link
In comment 15465425 montanagiant said:
Quote:
By a new GM. This team has got to draft three O-linemen, a true legit pass rusher, and a cover LB before anything else this off-season. It is time to fix the foundation of a decent NFL team


Not at all certain 3 rookie linemen makes 2022 much different considering the state of the line.
RE: RE: IMO the actual evaluation will come next season  
montanagiant : 11/23/2021 7:28 pm : link
In comment 15465432 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 15465425 montanagiant said:


Quote:


By a new GM. This team has got to draft three O-linemen, a true legit pass rusher, and a cover LB before anything else this off-season. It is time to fix the foundation of a decent NFL team



Not at all certain 3 rookie linemen makes 2022 much different considering the state of the line.

It definitely is not going to get better if we don't get some new blood. Don't have the money to sign any decent FA's
RE: RE: RE: There is nothing left to evaluate for any astute observers  
EricJ : 11/23/2021 7:30 pm : link
In comment 15465421 Producer said:
Quote:


No, I don't think you are right. I think you have it twisted. It is clearer to the experts than it is to the fans because they know what they are looking at, and most fans don't.



Okay so then if we have "experts" in our organization evaluating him.. .then why is he still on the team? My point is this organization gives people too much rope.


Quote:


Daniel Jones is now a five alarm fire for this organization. It's fans like you, who don't see it, who don't want to accept the reality of the probability that Jones will be anything other than an awful starting QB in this league.


When have I said we should keep Jones or that he can be a quality starting QB in this league?

Now here is my question for you. If the Giants keep Jones and roll into next season with him as the five alarm fire starter... are you still coming back to watch and follow the team?
RE: RE: RE: There is nothing left to evaluate for any astute observers  
EricJ : 11/23/2021 7:31 pm : link
In comment 15465421 Producer said:
Quote:


No, I don't think you are right. I think you have it twisted. It is clearer to the experts than it is to the fans because they know what they are looking at, and most fans don't.



Okay so then if we have "experts" in our organization evaluating him.. .then why is he still on the team? My point is this organization gives people too much rope.


Quote:


Daniel Jones is now a five alarm fire for this organization. It's fans like you, who don't see it, who don't want to accept the reality of the probability that Jones will be anything other than an awful starting QB in this league.


When have I said we should keep Jones or that he can be a quality starting QB in this league?

Now here is my question for you. If the Giants keep Jones and roll into next season with him as the five alarm fire starter... are you still coming back to watch and follow the team?
EricJ  
Producer : 11/23/2021 7:35 pm : link
Maybe I got you wrong.. sorry.

I have said elsewhere that I would probably favor keeping Jones next year but look aggressively for a successor and strategize about how to bring the best QB talent to the organization.

I have said before, I don't fear QB controversies.

I would not pick up Jones' 5th year $20M+ option.
RE: EricJ  
EricJ : 11/23/2021 7:43 pm : link
In comment 15465447 Producer said:
Quote:
Maybe I got you wrong.. sorry.

I have said elsewhere that I would probably favor keeping Jones next year but look aggressively for a successor and strategize about how to bring the best QB talent to the organization.

I have said before, I don't fear QB controversies.

I would not pick up Jones' 5th year $20M+ option.


That's okay... and by the way. The end of my opening thread is not what I am suggesting I would do. I am ready to find a new starter. My point was that is what I think the Giants are doing right now... right or wrong.

I would keep Jones as a backup if we can get away with paying him a salary commensurate with that role.
Three years of games  
Lines of Scrimmage : 11/23/2021 7:48 pm : link
And practices all taped and studied. I believe Judge knows exactly what Jones is and is not.



Holy shit  
HomerJones45 : 11/23/2021 7:49 pm : link
The cult goes on.

Proclaimed a franchise qb off rookie season

Blah tasting is second year. Not enough to evaluate.

Third year. He’s to 10 in the League! Returns to blahtastic. Oops no, he needs his weapons! He can’t be evaluated! Weapons return, he faceplants, gets OC canned. Now we can evaluate.

Wtf. This guy gets more evaluations than a high school teacher and a box full of excuses for being what he is- blahtastic.

The few games he plays well- he’s a franchise guy

The multitude of games he is Case Keenim, he needs more games to be evaluated

The games he blows- everyone else’s fault.
Jones  
BigBlueJ : 11/23/2021 7:56 pm : link
is not the guy. Wont be the guy. You want to blame Garrett, ok. He is solely responsible for the worst Offense in franchise history? Jones might turn out to be worse than any QB we have ever drafted by the end of the story.
LOL: There is nothing left to evaluate for any astute observers  
dancing blue bear : 11/23/2021 7:59 pm : link
In comment 15465421 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15465401 EricJ said:


Quote:


In comment 15465400 Producer said:


Quote:


It is clear what Jones is. There isn't some mystery remaining to be discerned.

The range of possibilities and the probabilities of those outcomes are pretty clear.






It may be clear to the fans... but the people responsible for drafting him need more convincing and need to check all of the boxes. I hope you can understand that.



No, I don't think you are right. I think you have it twisted. It is clearer to the experts than it is to the fans because they know what they are looking at, and most fans don't.

Jones hasn't developed beyond many bad habits. In isolation he makes many of the same mistakes he made when he came out of college.

He is now in his third year. With each passing year and each passing game, the probability he will turn it around decreases. His fundamental play is highly unlikely to change.

The question isn't what is Daniel Jones. We know it. He is terrible. The question is, how likely is he to improve from here, and what are the probabilities for those improvements.

My guess, is that he is most likely to fall into the Bortles/Trubisky category. It doesn't much matter to differentiate between these lesser categories as they are all bad. And if I'm going to guess, the probability of this outcome is over 90%.

Then there is the outcome that he becomes Andy Dalton. and the outcome that he is a bit better and becomes Kirk Cousins. I think there is a very low chance he can become as effective as Kirk Cousins. And almost zero chance he can be a category better than that.

You don't bet the fortunes of a billion dollar entertainment enterprise on probabilities like that.

Daniel Jones is now a five alarm fire for this organization. It's fans like you, who don't see it, who don't want to accept the reality of the probability that Jones will be anything other than an awful starting QB in this league.


This pseudo intellectual babble is the reason people sigh and leave the room when they see you. You are not an astute observer, nor do you have some sharp football mind. You have an opinion, which you present as fact, incessantly. Maybe take a breath and try not to ruin every conversation that happens to exist. Everyone knows your opinion.
RE: Holy shit  
SirLoinOfBeef : 11/23/2021 8:00 pm : link
In comment 15465469 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
The cult goes on.

Proclaimed a franchise qb off rookie season

Blah tasting is second year. Not enough to evaluate.

Third year. He’s to 10 in the League! Returns to blahtastic. Oops no, he needs his weapons! He can’t be evaluated! Weapons return, he faceplants, gets OC canned. Now we can evaluate.

Wtf. This guy gets more evaluations than a high school teacher and a box full of excuses for being what he is- blahtastic.

The few games he plays well- he’s a franchise guy

The multitude of games he is Case Keenim, he needs more games to be evaluated

The games he blows- everyone else’s fault.


I don't see the Jones' cheerleaders around today. Maybe they changed their minds.
Monday night is a barometer of nothing  
Keyser : 11/23/2021 8:18 pm : link
I think Jones as he stands now is not a franchise QB, but I also thinks he has a lot of desirable tools and COULD (maybe, maybe not) grow into a franchise QB if he had good coaching and a decent Oline to protect him.

However, using the Monday night game to evaluate him in any way is silly. He was harassed the whole game as soon as the ball was snapped every play whereas Tom Brady was able to read the newspaper and have a cup of coffee before deciding where to throw on most plays. Jones has had more than enough stinkers to be down on him, but last night means absolutely nothing.
The OP didn';t metnion ONE WORD about the OL  
giantstock : 11/23/2021 8:20 pm : link
I agree Jones was terrible. He was "that bad." But the OL sucks. You even had the announcer saying it in the 3rd quarter all but calling them flat out atrocious.

But not one word by the OP about that- just wants to go after Jones. News flash" Jones is gonna suck real bad with this OL. The weapons won't help him much because he is not a scrambling passing out of scramble type of QB.
agree about the OL  
dancing blue bear : 11/23/2021 8:33 pm : link
People have an agenda. par for the course

Besides evaluating Jones, the rest of the roster needs to be evaluated and developed I am excited to see a different OC in hopes that we can see more out of everyone. There is def more talent on the Offense (even with injuries) then 17 PPG.

Love to see Peart and Brederson play and maybe develop, as well as KT, saquon and Golloday. Plus If Kitchens makes a difference, then good. If not then get someone else next year. It's an audition. I def think Judge and Jones will be back.

RE: RE: Holy shit  
HomerJones45 : 11/23/2021 11:14 pm : link
In comment 15465486 SirLoinOfBeef said:
Quote:
In comment 15465469 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


The cult goes on.

Proclaimed a franchise qb off rookie season

Blah tasting is second year. Not enough to evaluate.

Third year. He’s to 10 in the League! Returns to blahtastic. Oops no, he needs his weapons! He can’t be evaluated! Weapons return, he faceplants, gets OC canned. Now we can evaluate.

Wtf. This guy gets more evaluations than a high school teacher and a box full of excuses for being what he is- blahtastic.

The few games he plays well- he’s a franchise guy

The multitude of games he is Case Keenim, he needs more games to be evaluated

The games he blows- everyone else’s fault.



I don't see the Jones' cheerleaders around today. Maybe they changed their minds.
please. Even you can’t be that obtuse.
I enjoy the revisionist history of some on this board  
Tom in NY : 11/24/2021 5:09 am : link
We don't know if Jones is the answer, but those declaring "he's no Eli Manning" seem to forget how rough Eli looked in his 3rd season (2006) with a much better team. In fact, I would bet many of those same voices would have been those screaming to move on from Eli right up to the playoff run in '07.

Go back and watch Eli's performance in the '06 season finale vs. Washington, when Tiki ran for the franchise record single game rushing record.
Eli is going to the HOF because the Giants were committed to him and showed patience. I am not predicting the same for Jones, but just a little patience and perspective should be allowed.
BTW, Jones' boneheaded throws the other night were right out of the '04'-'07 early Eli playback.
Should read"playbook "  
Tom in NY : 11/24/2021 5:10 am : link
:)
RE: I enjoy the revisionist history of some on this board  
EricJ : 11/24/2021 6:27 am : link
In comment 15465713 Tom in NY said:
Quote:

Eli is going to the HOF because the Giants were committed to him and showed patience. I am not predicting the same for Jones, but just a little patience and perspective should be allowed.


Eli may be considered for the HOF solely based upon his Superbowl performances... that's it. Without that, Eli does not sniff the HOF. No chance.

That said...Jones cannot even be in the same conversation as Eli. Simply ridiculous.
RE: I enjoy the revisionist history of some on this board  
Scooter185 : 11/24/2021 7:42 am : link
In comment 15465713 Tom in NY said:
Quote:
We don't know if Jones is the answer, but those declaring "he's no Eli Manning" seem to forget how rough Eli looked in his 3rd season (2006) with a much better team. In fact, I would bet many of those same voices would have been those screaming to move on from Eli right up to the playoff run in '07.

Go back and watch Eli's performance in the '06 season finale vs. Washington, when Tiki ran for the franchise record single game rushing record.
Eli is going to the HOF because the Giants were committed to him and showed patience. I am not predicting the same for Jones, but just a little patience and perspective should be allowed.
BTW, Jones' boneheaded throws the other night were right out of the '04'-'07 early Eli playback.


The contract situation is what makes Jones mistakes and Eli's mistakes incomparable and calls for patience moot.

The way the rookie contracts work, being 4 years with the 5th year option being a fully guaranteed and significant pay increase, teams can't really be more patient than three years.
RE: Jones  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/24/2021 11:10 am : link
In comment 15465382 Hilary said:
Quote:
I think Jones is very under rated on this board

but the bonehead throws like the one he made last night are not on the coach. Pee Wee league coaches tell there QB to throw the ball out of bounds.

he can't be evaluated behind Skura Price and Hernandez

The clock is ticking on his contract whether that IOL is improved or not.

He's going to have to show something in order to justify investing in him at a much higher price tag while a continued rebuild is needed.

Spending money on a question mark at QB will reduce some of the Giants' flexibility while they rebuild their roster yet again. If DJ shows that he's the guy, fine. That's the biggest spot on the roster and if that question is answered, it's money well spent.

But if it's still uncertain, even if it's not his fault, I don't see how the Giants can commit to DJ beyond this contract unless the rest of the team is stabilized as well.
RE: RE: RE: There is nothing left to evaluate for any astute observers  
djm : 11/24/2021 11:27 am : link
In comment 15465421 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15465401 EricJ said:


Quote:


In comment 15465400 Producer said:


Quote:


It is clear what Jones is. There isn't some mystery remaining to be discerned.

The range of possibilities and the probabilities of those outcomes are pretty clear.






It may be clear to the fans... but the people responsible for drafting him need more convincing and need to check all of the boxes. I hope you can understand that.



No, I don't think you are right. I think you have it twisted. It is clearer to the experts than it is to the fans because they know what they are looking at, and most fans don't.

Jones hasn't developed beyond many bad habits. In isolation he makes many of the same mistakes he made when he came out of college.

He is now in his third year. With each passing year and each passing game, the probability he will turn it around decreases. His fundamental play is highly unlikely to change.

The question isn't what is Daniel Jones. We know it. He is terrible. The question is, how likely is he to improve from here, and what are the probabilities for those improvements.

My guess, is that he is most likely to fall into the Bortles/Trubisky category. It doesn't much matter to differentiate between these lesser categories as they are all bad. And if I'm going to guess, the probability of this outcome is over 90%.

Then there is the outcome that he becomes Andy Dalton. and the outcome that he is a bit better and becomes Kirk Cousins. I think there is a very low chance he can become as effective as Kirk Cousins. And almost zero chance he can be a category better than that.

You don't bet the fortunes of a billion dollar entertainment enterprise on probabilities like that.

Daniel Jones is now a five alarm fire for this organization. It's fans like you, who don't see it, who don't want to accept the reality of the probability that Jones will be anything other than an awful starting QB in this league.


Well, it isn't just fans no matter how many times you insist otherwise. The Giants coaches are sticking with Jones because they see a reason to.

Also, worth mentioning, there isn't another QB on the roster that is any better so why wouldn't they stick with Jones for now? He's the best option.

You don't need to rail against people every fucking day just to prove some point about Jones. The Giants are sticking with him until they aren't sticking with him. It makes sense to do so for now even if you can't process that.
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