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| What is clear, though, is this: Whatever Mara and Steve Tisch have been doing for the last decade simply isn’t working. They have to at least be open to trying something new. Everything, from their talent evaluation to their player development has proven to be off. The pathetic record speaks for itself. |
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| There’s no halfway when you’ve been as bad as they’ve been for that long,” said one NFL source. “Cosmetic changes aren’t good enough. They always say they’re willing to do things differently. We’re about to find out if they’re serious.” “Either they really want to change things and fix their problems,” said another league source, “or they don’t.” |
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| “When push comes to shove, they always prefer to stick with what they know,” said an NFL source. “But if you only listen to people in your system, how are things ever going to be any different?” |
This has all been reported by Gettleman, John Mara and Chris Abrams in various articles and statements made.
Are you saying that wasn't real change?
No, it wasn't. Because Gettleman was simply a continuation of the Giants "family" culture. There was no break as there was when George Young came in.
Doubtful.
The most Giants fans can hope for is that the team gets very lucky and somehow, someway finally puts together an offensive line that is NOT the laughing stock of the NFL.
But as for "real" change. The Maras have made laughing stocks of us all.
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and changed everything they did relative to player personnel and evaluation, college scouting, use of outside scouting firms, setting up draft board, and then later adding or improving use of analytics. He replaced a number of scouts and also hired a number of other people in the Front Office in 2019 and 2020 in continuing this revamping.
This has all been reported by Gettleman, John Mara and Chris Abrams in various articles and statements made.
Are you saying that wasn't real change?
No, it wasn't. Because Gettleman was simply a continuation of the Giants "family" culture. There was no break as there was when George Young came in.
But what does that mean exactly? I just told you Getts said he changed the way they do business in that Front Office to what he think was needed. So if he changed all of the above, presumably as an improvement, what part of the family culture is mitigating all that change?
Give me some examples.
Other teams are adapting.
Hiring very young coaches because of their offensive minds, and who aren't stubborn in the old way of building a team/calling a game
QB is the most important position. If it can be upgraded, you upgrade.
Cardinals taking a QB immediately after drafting one the previous years.
Mara was loyal to Eli till the end. It cost us years trying to build a team to win with him, when the reality was, at his age, they weren't winning anything.
The Colts and Patriots moved on from their historic QBs when it was evident they needed to retool, why the hell couldn't Mara
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In comment 15465772 Jimmy Googs said:
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and changed everything they did relative to player personnel and evaluation, college scouting, use of outside scouting firms, setting up draft board, and then later adding or improving use of analytics. He replaced a number of scouts and also hired a number of other people in the Front Office in 2019 and 2020 in continuing this revamping.
This has all been reported by Gettleman, John Mara and Chris Abrams in various articles and statements made.
Are you saying that wasn't real change?
No, it wasn't. Because Gettleman was simply a continuation of the Giants "family" culture. There was no break as there was when George Young came in.
But what does that mean exactly? I just told you Getts said he changed the way they do business in that Front Office to what he think was needed. So if he changed all of the above, presumably as an improvement, what part of the family culture is mitigating all that change?
Give me some examples.
The proof is in the pudding.
They need someone not previously attached to the Mara way to come in from the outside and shake things up. That Kevin Abrams was kept on and groomed is evidence alone that that was not done by the Gettleman hire.
This is still an issue
Former NFL executive Michael Lombardi, in a column for The Athletic, explains how all this applies to the Giants these days and is the source of their current issues:
The Giants are a family-run organization and even though Dave Gettleman is the GM in title, John Mara’s brother Chris is also involved in the personnel decisions and carries a Vice President title.
Chris’ background has always been in scouting, working from the bottom of the organization to the top. He has paid his dues and worked hard to become a Vice President, however, because he is also a part owner, his voice has supreme clout. Some might view the Giants as having three GMs: the Mara brothers and Gettleman. And when an NFL team has a committee running their future, they have zero chance to win.
If the Giants were smart, they would hire an outside consulting firm to analyze their organization and either get confirmation that their business model can still work, or be told that they need to revamp. And what has to scare Giants fans the most is that they have not yet reached rock bottom.
Link - ( New Window )
"Wait, Chris and I were talking about this other guy last night. Let's go with him instead."
per Raanan and Chris Bisignano from the Giants Insider, this is essentially how it works.
Thing is, as you look around the league, there are many more failures at GM and their staffs, then successes. Many more. Change does not guarantee success - ask the Browns.
As to Judge, I think he is a bit confused/befuddled because he is so new to this level of coaching he does not know how to move on. He had a vision/plan, it is not working. He is stuck as to what to do now. Perhaps firing Garrett is his change. Perhaps he goes in another direction. I do not know.
When the Giants bring in that new GM, he has to be given the freedom to keep or fire Judge and Jones. Poor guy is being stuck with no CAP and no room to maneuver. It will really be at least a full season before he can operate with some money. This is why Abrams needs to go too. He was the money guy and blew it.
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In comment 15465802 jeff57 said:
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In comment 15465772 Jimmy Googs said:
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and changed everything they did relative to player personnel and evaluation, college scouting, use of outside scouting firms, setting up draft board, and then later adding or improving use of analytics. He replaced a number of scouts and also hired a number of other people in the Front Office in 2019 and 2020 in continuing this revamping.
This has all been reported by Gettleman, John Mara and Chris Abrams in various articles and statements made.
Are you saying that wasn't real change?
No, it wasn't. Because Gettleman was simply a continuation of the Giants "family" culture. There was no break as there was when George Young came in.
But what does that mean exactly? I just told you Getts said he changed the way they do business in that Front Office to what he think was needed. So if he changed all of the above, presumably as an improvement, what part of the family culture is mitigating all that change?
Give me some examples.
The proof is in the pudding.
They need someone not previously attached to the Mara way to come in from the outside and shake things up. That Kevin Abrams was kept on and groomed is evidence alone that that was not done by the Gettleman hire.
I realize the results haven't changed, and that DG was previously attached to the org. But if they changed all the things noted above, then you cannot say they are doing business the same old family way. That is my point.
They are doing it differently, but just doing it poorly once again because DG isn't very good at what he does. And possibly Judge.
They need a different guy at GM, and I agree I would clearly go outside versus the known Abrams. Unless there are multiple instances where Abrams stood up and disagreed with approaches in key situations, and was found correct. Though I would find that to be unlikely...
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draft lists into the Giants War Room and when they are about to call in the pick they stand up say...
"Wait, Chris and I were talking about this other guy last night. Let's go with him instead."
per Raanan and Chris Bisignano from the Giants Insider, this is essentially how it works.
Really? No way. Show me the articles
This has all been reported by Gettleman, John Mara and Chris Abrams in various articles and statements made.
Are you saying that wasn't real change?
I took a look at the football ops people a few weeks back. Fewer of them have turned over than I thought.
Most scouts have been here a long time. I don't think there's been the necessary nuking.
Get a competent GM that is a good evaluator of talent and the family stuff will fall in line or be irrelevant...
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In comment 15465795 Jimmy Googs said:
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draft lists into the Giants War Room and when they are about to call in the pick they stand up say...
"Wait, Chris and I were talking about this other guy last night. Let's go with him instead."
per Raanan and Chris Bisignano from the Giants Insider, this is essentially how it works.
Really? No way. Show me the articles
podcasts. go find them if you're that curious.
I get the Patriots example, even though it seems more like it was Brady that wanted to move on instead of the Patriots.
But I don't get your "Colts" moving on from their historic QB reference.
If you're referring to when they drafted Luck to replace Manning, that's a move that just about every NFL team would make, given the caliber of prospect that Luck was, combined with Manning's age, salary and the fact that he was coming off an injury.
Take saquon for example. Very marketable guy. They knew he would sell a lot of jerseys and advertisers will lineup.
Do the owners with a larger financial stake place a higher emphasis on that than the football guys?
It's also likely he was the wrong person to implement them.
Here's to somebody new coming in that can do a more effective job filling the roster and a person who can do a better job putting them in a position to succeed.
who/what are you referring to?
Strap in boys, odds are its going to be Abrams so the family message can still be, "we've been unlucky, but we're on the right track." Get ready for more 70s football. I hear Abrams has his eye on an outstanding prospect from Yale. Mara knows the kid's father from golf.
It's also likely he was the wrong person to implement them.
Here's to somebody new coming in that can do a more effective job filling the roster and a person who can do a better job putting them in a position to succeed.
Don't follow. If most of the changes he made were correct, then how are they not improving? Give an example or two...
all of this has been discussed and the information is out there. shit, i think the lombardo quotes are posted here on BBI. i seriously doubt those three are just making things up.
"The Giants’ handling of Garrett demonstrates the perils of sticking with someone despite evidence they’re not up to the task. There’s a balance between being impulsive and being late to address a problem. Having that sense is an essential skill for leaders. It’s something the Giants brass hasn’t shown in recent years."
Get a competent GM that is a good evaluator of talent and the family stuff will fall in line or be irrelevant...
I believe you are correct. DG made changes. But he either is a poor evaluator of talent or misinterpreted the scouting reports.
His biggest problem was he knew the oline sucked, proclaimed he would fix it and then failed to do so.
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draft lists into the Giants War Room and when they are about to call in the pick they stand up say...
"Wait, Chris and I were talking about this other guy last night. Let's go with him instead."
per Raanan and Chris Bisignano from the Giants Insider, this is essentially how it works.
Asking again...find a quote that supports what you said above here. That the Mara's are overriding the draft decisions, and running the War Room.
all of this has been discussed and the information is out there. shit, i think the lombardo quotes are posted here on BBI. i seriously doubt those three are just making things up.
We all know CHRIS Mara has a hand in it - it is his job. Tisch and John Mara are not in there telling DG who to draft and while Chris has his input on the evals, DG and Judge were picking the players.
I believe Chris Pettit was promoted to director around this time. I actually grew up with one of the scouts and know he is still there for over 10 years. I was clicking on some of the names and like the thread alludes, there are long time tenures here.
When a new GM is brought in - do they typically overturn the scouting department?
I hope they've got a pair and go outside the organization for a legitimate fresh start.
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of having the family intertwined in running/operating the football operations. They should have a voice but it should be more of listening role and responding versus driving the bus. I also don't think they do drive the bus at an alarming level that many of the posters surmise on here, and despite the titles you see on the Giant website. The GM drives.
Get a competent GM that is a good evaluator of talent and the family stuff will fall in line or be irrelevant...
I believe you are correct. DG made changes. But he either is a poor evaluator of talent or misinterpreted the scouting reports.
His biggest problem was he knew the oline sucked, proclaimed he would fix it and then failed to do so.
He is an awful evaluator of talent and gauging the competency of the roster/units. Plain and clearly seen over the past 4 years.
Add in being outmatched in terms of how to utilize his available cap space and higher picks, and you have a disaster...
I believe Chris Pettit was promoted to director around this time. I actually grew up with one of the scouts and know he is still there for over 10 years. I was clicking on some of the names and like the thread alludes, there are long time tenures here.
When a new GM is brought in - do they typically overturn the scouting department?
Some are let go. Unless it is clearly evident a regional guy is missing good players or missing on his evals(as was done in the SE guy last year?) most are retained. It is fairly easy for a new GM to review recommendations and reports to see how eachscout did vs results on the field.
Since the rosters have been crap since he took over (2011), you have to assess he SUCKS at his job. But since he OWNS the team, he ain’t going anywhere. Thus, the team has to get real lucky to improve.
Since the rosters have been crap since he took over (2011), you have to assess he SUCKS at his job. But since he OWNS the team, he ain’t going anywhere. Thus, the team has to get real lucky to improve.
Absolutely correct. Hard to fire one of the owners if he does not want to be fired. I don't know how Jerry Jones son did it, but perhaps Jerry himself realized he sucked at drafting and moved on himself. Perhaps Steve Tisch can push him to a less responsible position.
You have to make the right picks and find the right coach. I don't see any evidence that Abrams would be worse at that than someone else.
Since the rosters have been crap since he took over (2011), you have to assess he SUCKS at his job. But since he OWNS the team, he ain’t going anywhere. Thus, the team has to get real lucky to improve.
He may be on the same tier as the GM, but those responsibilities are not his, they are Gettleman's.
Chris Mara, with his title, just gets to see the sausage being made and put in his two cents...
My instinct is he will be more of the same we've seen for the past ten years, and I'd rather start from scratch.
I hope they've got a pair and go outside the organization for a legitimate fresh start.
I'd say that promoting either Abrams or Petit would be the worst choice they could make, but it isn't, promoting Tim McDonnell would be. Even "going outside the organization", while a drastic improvement, wouldn't be the panacea we're looking for. That would be hiring someone from outside the org to run all football ops. I just don't see the Mara's giving that up.
This has all been reported by Gettleman, John Mara and Chris Abrams in various articles and statements made.
Are you saying that wasn't real change?
Well. it didn't goddam work, did it?
When Mara fired Jerry Reese in 2017, he interviewed the following candidates for GM: Marc Ross, Dave Gettleman, Kevin Abrams, Louis Riddick. He went with the guy Ernie recommended.
In each search, the Giants only brought in one candidate from outside of their own building.. and both times it was who had been on TV.
Do you think Mara will pay Ernie to consult on the next GM search too, or do you think he will simply ask Gettleman for his recommendation, who will be Abrams?
Buckle up!
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because their long standing plan to ride DG off into the sunset and elevate Abrams is nearly at hand, at a time when it's apparent there's rot inside the organization going unresolved.
I hope they've got a pair and go outside the organization for a legitimate fresh start.
I'd say that promoting either Abrams or Petit would be the worst choice they could make, but it isn't, promoting Tim McDonnell would be. Even "going outside the organization", while a drastic improvement, wouldn't be the panacea we're looking for. That would be hiring someone from outside the org to run all football ops. I just don't see the Mara's giving that up.
Nor me. I was hopeful scouting would really uptick under Petit and perhaps he'd be a better path forward. But, that has not come to pass either.
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and changed everything they did relative to player personnel and evaluation, college scouting, use of outside scouting firms, setting up draft board, and then later adding or improving use of analytics. He replaced a number of scouts and also hired a number of other people in the Front Office in 2019 and 2020 in continuing this revamping.
This has all been reported by Gettleman, John Mara and Chris Abrams in various articles and statements made.
Are you saying that wasn't real change?
Well. it didn't goddam work, did it?
Change doesn't always work. Especially poorly thought-out and executed change from a guy that isn't good at being a General Manager. That doesn't mean you don't keep trying, but have to find the right guy.
goddamn it...
As far as ownership(Mara), they are gradually adapting to change, but violated they’re own game plan:
Hog mollies( 🤣🤣)to
Run the ball;
Stop the run(it’s ok);
Play good D( schizo D)
I’m not addressing DJ because he’s been beaten past recognition on BBI,
but in a draft strong in OL we draft none in ‘21; fortunately we get a mulligan in 22. We keep , draft, or overpay for WR. No LB.
And a host of faux pas.
Avoiding , likely, 2 player number retirements is a silent confession and a double embarrassment.
As long as they are deeply into there own ONCE A GIANT … select acclaim, little will change.
But there’s hope.
"The Giants’ handling of Garrett demonstrates the perils of sticking with someone despite evidence they’re not up to the task. There’s a balance between being impulsive and being late to address a problem. Having that sense is an essential skill for leaders. It’s something the Giants brass hasn’t shown in recent years."
WHAT?! this is exactly what they've been doing since the end of 2014. half steps, finger in the dyke nonsense. All it breeds is chaos and a room full of people with different agendas and loyalties.
You have to make the right picks and find the right coach. I don't see any evidence that Abrams would be worse at that than someone else.
You know you can hire someone with former GM experience, right?
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Doubtful.
How many other teams have won 4 or more Super Bowls? How many have not? After you find out those numbers, then we can talk about if the Giant way is working or not.
That's such a lame take.
By that metric, we can never criticize the Cowboys, who haven't won a Super Bowl in 26 years, but hey - they won 5. And WFT used to be BBI's favorite whipping boy, but they won 3, so can't bag on them.
The Giants won 4 Super Bowls, that's accurate. They also have had double-digit losses for the past four years and are screaming toward a fifth straight year of 10+ losses this season.
That also counts. If you want to admire your Giants championship DVDs, have at it. I'd rather have a team that has a genuine chance to win every weekend.
Loser fans defending a loser team.
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everyone keeps saying that they definitely don't want Abrams as GM and they want some other guy from some other organization. Perfectly fine to have that opinion but Abrams would have just as much experience as a GM than someone else - no experience.
You have to make the right picks and find the right coach. I don't see any evidence that Abrams would be worse at that than someone else.
You know you can hire someone with former GM experience, right?
It's unclear exactly what Ryan knows. It certainly isn't much about football.