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What is clear, though, is this: Whatever Mara and Steve Tisch have been doing for the last decade simply isn’t working. They have to at least be open to trying something new. Everything, from their talent evaluation to their player development has proven to be off. The pathetic record speaks for itself. |
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There’s no halfway when you’ve been as bad as they’ve been for that long,” said one NFL source. “Cosmetic changes aren’t good enough. They always say they’re willing to do things differently. We’re about to find out if they’re serious.” “Either they really want to change things and fix their problems,” said another league source, “or they don’t.” |
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“When push comes to shove, they always prefer to stick with what they know,” said an NFL source. “But if you only listen to people in your system, how are things ever going to be any different?” |
Most owners are in the draft room.
It's been reported that the Giants are looking at "outside" candidates for the GM position, so I have to believe that's the direction they'll go. Mara knows that the fans would not take kindly to him promoting Abrams to the GM position.
Judge and Jones get another year, but the Giants are not going to pick up Jones' option.
I don't see any other major changes hapening.
This owner has had two Championships in the past 14 years doing it the Giants Way.
Not sure we are going to see the changes people are calling for.
This owner has had two Championships in the past 14 years doing it the Giants Way.
Not sure we are going to see the changes people are calling for.
they stopped doing it "the Giants way" in 2014 when they scapegoated Gilbride and brought in McAdoo. That started the half measures and patch work solutions. Since then its been a constant carousel of new coordinators, HCs, GM every year.
First with Parcells, Bellicheck, LT and Simms
The Second with Coughlin and Eli and Strahan
You could add in a half term with Fassell, Collins, Tiki and Armstead.
Does the Giants way really work?
Doubtful.
Doubtful.
How many other teams have won 4 or more Super Bowls? How many have not? After you find out those numbers, then we can talk about if the Giant way is working or not.
It's been reported that the Giants are looking at "outside" candidates for the GM position, so I have to believe that's the direction they'll go. Mara knows that the fans would not take kindly to him promoting Abrams to the GM position.
Judge and Jones get another year, but the Giants are not going to pick up Jones' option.
I don't see any other major changes hapening.
I can see this playing out. Is Judge involved with this decision? Is it a Mara decision? I see a big difference between the two. Are you tying the GM/HC together? There are potential issues with this approach.
It's been reported that the Giants are looking at "outside" candidates for the GM position, so I have to believe that's the direction they'll go. Mara knows that the fans would not take kindly to him promoting Abrams to the GM position.
Judge and Jones get another year, but the Giants are not going to pick up Jones' option.
I don't see any other major changes hapening.
This has all been reported by Gettleman, John Mara and Chris Abrams in various articles and statements made.
Are you saying that wasn't real change?
This has all been reported by Gettleman, John Mara and Chris Abrams in various articles and statements made.
Are you saying that wasn't real change?
This is why I think Mara is hoping for a few more wins. Anything positive to continue mostly as is. I remember the same things being said by Mara.
Almost all the owners of other teams are in the draft room. That’s the biggest event of the season. I’m thinking Cowboys, Raiders, Patriots, particularly.
"Wait, Chris and I were talking about this other guy last night. Let's go with him instead."
This has all been reported by Gettleman, John Mara and Chris Abrams in various articles and statements made.
Are you saying that wasn't real change?
No, it wasn't. Because Gettleman was simply a continuation of the Giants "family" culture. There was no break as there was when George Young came in.
Doubtful.
The most Giants fans can hope for is that the team gets very lucky and somehow, someway finally puts together an offensive line that is NOT the laughing stock of the NFL.
But as for "real" change. The Maras have made laughing stocks of us all.
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and changed everything they did relative to player personnel and evaluation, college scouting, use of outside scouting firms, setting up draft board, and then later adding or improving use of analytics. He replaced a number of scouts and also hired a number of other people in the Front Office in 2019 and 2020 in continuing this revamping.
This has all been reported by Gettleman, John Mara and Chris Abrams in various articles and statements made.
Are you saying that wasn't real change?
No, it wasn't. Because Gettleman was simply a continuation of the Giants "family" culture. There was no break as there was when George Young came in.
But what does that mean exactly? I just told you Getts said he changed the way they do business in that Front Office to what he think was needed. So if he changed all of the above, presumably as an improvement, what part of the family culture is mitigating all that change?
Give me some examples.
Other teams are adapting.
Hiring very young coaches because of their offensive minds, and who aren't stubborn in the old way of building a team/calling a game
QB is the most important position. If it can be upgraded, you upgrade.
Cardinals taking a QB immediately after drafting one the previous years.
Mara was loyal to Eli till the end. It cost us years trying to build a team to win with him, when the reality was, at his age, they weren't winning anything.
The Colts and Patriots moved on from their historic QBs when it was evident they needed to retool, why the hell couldn't Mara
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In comment 15465772 Jimmy Googs said:
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and changed everything they did relative to player personnel and evaluation, college scouting, use of outside scouting firms, setting up draft board, and then later adding or improving use of analytics. He replaced a number of scouts and also hired a number of other people in the Front Office in 2019 and 2020 in continuing this revamping.
This has all been reported by Gettleman, John Mara and Chris Abrams in various articles and statements made.
Are you saying that wasn't real change?
No, it wasn't. Because Gettleman was simply a continuation of the Giants "family" culture. There was no break as there was when George Young came in.
But what does that mean exactly? I just told you Getts said he changed the way they do business in that Front Office to what he think was needed. So if he changed all of the above, presumably as an improvement, what part of the family culture is mitigating all that change?
Give me some examples.
The proof is in the pudding.
They need someone not previously attached to the Mara way to come in from the outside and shake things up. That Kevin Abrams was kept on and groomed is evidence alone that that was not done by the Gettleman hire.
This is still an issue
Former NFL executive Michael Lombardi, in a column for The Athletic, explains how all this applies to the Giants these days and is the source of their current issues:
The Giants are a family-run organization and even though Dave Gettleman is the GM in title, John Mara’s brother Chris is also involved in the personnel decisions and carries a Vice President title.
Chris’ background has always been in scouting, working from the bottom of the organization to the top. He has paid his dues and worked hard to become a Vice President, however, because he is also a part owner, his voice has supreme clout. Some might view the Giants as having three GMs: the Mara brothers and Gettleman. And when an NFL team has a committee running their future, they have zero chance to win.
If the Giants were smart, they would hire an outside consulting firm to analyze their organization and either get confirmation that their business model can still work, or be told that they need to revamp. And what has to scare Giants fans the most is that they have not yet reached rock bottom.
Link - ( New Window )
"Wait, Chris and I were talking about this other guy last night. Let's go with him instead."
per Raanan and Chris Bisignano from the Giants Insider, this is essentially how it works.
Thing is, as you look around the league, there are many more failures at GM and their staffs, then successes. Many more. Change does not guarantee success - ask the Browns.
As to Judge, I think he is a bit confused/befuddled because he is so new to this level of coaching he does not know how to move on. He had a vision/plan, it is not working. He is stuck as to what to do now. Perhaps firing Garrett is his change. Perhaps he goes in another direction. I do not know.
When the Giants bring in that new GM, he has to be given the freedom to keep or fire Judge and Jones. Poor guy is being stuck with no CAP and no room to maneuver. It will really be at least a full season before he can operate with some money. This is why Abrams needs to go too. He was the money guy and blew it.
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In comment 15465802 jeff57 said:
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In comment 15465772 Jimmy Googs said:
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and changed everything they did relative to player personnel and evaluation, college scouting, use of outside scouting firms, setting up draft board, and then later adding or improving use of analytics. He replaced a number of scouts and also hired a number of other people in the Front Office in 2019 and 2020 in continuing this revamping.
This has all been reported by Gettleman, John Mara and Chris Abrams in various articles and statements made.
Are you saying that wasn't real change?
No, it wasn't. Because Gettleman was simply a continuation of the Giants "family" culture. There was no break as there was when George Young came in.
But what does that mean exactly? I just told you Getts said he changed the way they do business in that Front Office to what he think was needed. So if he changed all of the above, presumably as an improvement, what part of the family culture is mitigating all that change?
Give me some examples.
The proof is in the pudding.
They need someone not previously attached to the Mara way to come in from the outside and shake things up. That Kevin Abrams was kept on and groomed is evidence alone that that was not done by the Gettleman hire.
I realize the results haven't changed, and that DG was previously attached to the org. But if they changed all the things noted above, then you cannot say they are doing business the same old family way. That is my point.
They are doing it differently, but just doing it poorly once again because DG isn't very good at what he does. And possibly Judge.
They need a different guy at GM, and I agree I would clearly go outside versus the known Abrams. Unless there are multiple instances where Abrams stood up and disagreed with approaches in key situations, and was found correct. Though I would find that to be unlikely...
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draft lists into the Giants War Room and when they are about to call in the pick they stand up say...
"Wait, Chris and I were talking about this other guy last night. Let's go with him instead."
per Raanan and Chris Bisignano from the Giants Insider, this is essentially how it works.
Really? No way. Show me the articles
This has all been reported by Gettleman, John Mara and Chris Abrams in various articles and statements made.
Are you saying that wasn't real change?
I took a look at the football ops people a few weeks back. Fewer of them have turned over than I thought.
Most scouts have been here a long time. I don't think there's been the necessary nuking.
Get a competent GM that is a good evaluator of talent and the family stuff will fall in line or be irrelevant...
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In comment 15465795 Jimmy Googs said:
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draft lists into the Giants War Room and when they are about to call in the pick they stand up say...
"Wait, Chris and I were talking about this other guy last night. Let's go with him instead."
per Raanan and Chris Bisignano from the Giants Insider, this is essentially how it works.
Really? No way. Show me the articles
podcasts. go find them if you're that curious.
I get the Patriots example, even though it seems more like it was Brady that wanted to move on instead of the Patriots.
But I don't get your "Colts" moving on from their historic QB reference.
If you're referring to when they drafted Luck to replace Manning, that's a move that just about every NFL team would make, given the caliber of prospect that Luck was, combined with Manning's age, salary and the fact that he was coming off an injury.
Take saquon for example. Very marketable guy. They knew he would sell a lot of jerseys and advertisers will lineup.
Do the owners with a larger financial stake place a higher emphasis on that than the football guys?
It's also likely he was the wrong person to implement them.
Here's to somebody new coming in that can do a more effective job filling the roster and a person who can do a better job putting them in a position to succeed.
who/what are you referring to?
Strap in boys, odds are its going to be Abrams so the family message can still be, "we've been unlucky, but we're on the right track." Get ready for more 70s football. I hear Abrams has his eye on an outstanding prospect from Yale. Mara knows the kid's father from golf.
It's also likely he was the wrong person to implement them.
Here's to somebody new coming in that can do a more effective job filling the roster and a person who can do a better job putting them in a position to succeed.
Don't follow. If most of the changes he made were correct, then how are they not improving? Give an example or two...
all of this has been discussed and the information is out there. shit, i think the lombardo quotes are posted here on BBI. i seriously doubt those three are just making things up.
"The Giants’ handling of Garrett demonstrates the perils of sticking with someone despite evidence they’re not up to the task. There’s a balance between being impulsive and being late to address a problem. Having that sense is an essential skill for leaders. It’s something the Giants brass hasn’t shown in recent years."
Get a competent GM that is a good evaluator of talent and the family stuff will fall in line or be irrelevant...
I believe you are correct. DG made changes. But he either is a poor evaluator of talent or misinterpreted the scouting reports.
His biggest problem was he knew the oline sucked, proclaimed he would fix it and then failed to do so.
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draft lists into the Giants War Room and when they are about to call in the pick they stand up say...
"Wait, Chris and I were talking about this other guy last night. Let's go with him instead."
per Raanan and Chris Bisignano from the Giants Insider, this is essentially how it works.
Asking again...find a quote that supports what you said above here. That the Mara's are overriding the draft decisions, and running the War Room.
all of this has been discussed and the information is out there. shit, i think the lombardo quotes are posted here on BBI. i seriously doubt those three are just making things up.
We all know CHRIS Mara has a hand in it - it is his job. Tisch and John Mara are not in there telling DG who to draft and while Chris has his input on the evals, DG and Judge were picking the players.